Steve Benen at The Washington Monthly highlights another low-light from “The Anti-Science Party“:
“Real Time” host Bill Maher asked Rep. Jack Kingston (R-Ga.) a fairly straightforward question: “Do you believe in evolution?” Kingston not only said he rejects the foundation of modern biology, he explained it this way: “I believe I came from God, not from a monkey.” He added, “If it happened over millions and millions of years, there should be lots of fossil evidence.”
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Seriously, that’s what he said.
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Let’s pause to appreciate the fact that it’s the 21st century — and Jack Kingston is a 10-term congressman who helps oversee federal funding on the Food and Drug Administration.
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As part of the same discussion, former Canadian Prime Minister Kim Campbell tried to ask Kingston about the overuse of antibiotics. The far-right congressman had no idea how the question related to evolution…
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In the larger context, there’s a renewed push underway for the United States to value and appreciate science in the 21st century — our future depends on it. And while this push is underway, Republican leaders are more comfortable walking a bridge to the 18th century.
Video at the link, if you think he’s exaggerating.
If we’re going to encourage “a renewed push underway for the United States to value and appreciate science in the 21st century” among the Heartland Americans(tm), I vote we get Twin Spica professionally licensed for distribution over here:
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It’s the heartwarming story of a little girl who works really, really hard to achieve her dream of becoming a “rocket pilot” in Japan’s nascent space program… inspired, and mentored, by the ghost of an astronaut killed during a Challenger incident. Seriously, it’s a nifty little skiffy story, which reminds me a great deal of early YA Heinlein novels like Have Spacesuit Will Travel or Farmer in the Sky. And since it’s a “cartoon”, maybe it’s sufficiently unthreatening for the… resolutely non-technically-oriented?
The Dangerman
The truly sad part of that discussion is that it’s always framed as an either/or, i.e., choose Team Evolution or Team God. Believing in evolution doesn’t mean one can’t believe in a Deity of one’s choosing. If anything, one can reinforce the other quite readily.
Keep science in the schools and Faith in the Church and all will be well.
Frank
All I can say to this is grrr… That was America’s main advantage is we used the scientific method (and also that we didn’t fight WW2 on our own soil).
Bnut
I watch Real time every week. My ultimate lineup is Richard Belzer, Cornell West and Mos Def. It would be 99% crazy, 1% profound, 100% awesome.
Yutsano
@The Dangerman:
Speaking as a creationist who also believes completely in the soundness of evolution, this.
jl
Why the insult to the 18th century? Was that necessary?
I’m trying to think of good century to use, but can’t. There were mindless fanatics in all the previous centuries, probably.
Linkmeister
Hey! That was only chapter 1 of that video! Where are the remaining chapters?
Damn cliffhangers.
MeDrewNotYou
I watched Bill Maher with my sister last night. She’s kinda science-illiterate, but she isn’t completely ignorant. At one point during the show, Kingston said something about global warming science. Sister did a literal spit-take and said, “Oh my god! He’s flat out lying, isn’t he?” Kingston was really that bad.
In quick related creationism news before bed, I’ve found the best show on TV. Friday mornings at 6am on TBN (Trinity Broadcasting Network, you know, the ones always asking for ‘love gifts.’) Creation in the 21st Century, hosted by a guy with 3 PhDs from what seem like diploma mills. Last week, talking about Noah’s ark, he had on some artist. He brought up Michelangelo and Rembrandt then said his guest was actually the greatest artist in history. This is the most lulzy show I’ve ever seen. Get up early, record it, do anything to watch it.
Morbo
Let’s get everyone watching Planetes too.
Yutsano
Not for nothing, but there was also a live version of this show produced as well. No real input on the relative qualities of both (I’ve only watched the anime) but just throwing that out there.
And Twin Spica is pretty damn deep, and does not go anywhere at all where you think it will.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Bnut: Maher’s been overdoing his affirmative action for conservatives lately, and he let Kingston dominate the discussion last night. Campbell and the kid from NRO hardly got a word in, and last week that creepy fuck Stephen Moore did the same thing.
It was something to see how incredulous Campbell was about tax cuts and climate change. Sarkozy, Cameron, Merkel…. all over the world conservatives marvel at how stupid our conservatives are, and our elite pundits call on the reality-based community to find bipartisan common ground with the saddled-dinosaur crowd.
Kyle
@MeDrewNotYou:
He brought up Michelangelo and Rembrandt then said his guest was actually the greatest artist in history.
Thomas Kinkade was on his show? Damn, I missed it!
Seriously, if you asked a lot of fundies they would say that ostentatiously-Christian schlockmeister (and public drunk with a DUI and a divorce) is the greatest artist of all time. I mean, how can you top 68 different paintings of cottages by the ocean with windows glowing like Chernobyl.
Violet
@Kyle:
Isn’t that practically required for good Republicans and professional Christians these days?
jharp
“Jack Kingston is a 10-term congressman who helps oversee federal funding on the Food and Drug Administration.”
What exactly does “helps oversee” supposed to mean? I like Steve Benen a lot. I read him every day. And I’m not criticizing him. But seeing it reprinted here made me ask the question.
Sly
@The Dangerman:
Depends upon the deity. Or, more accurately, the creation story. Any creation story that rules out chance, forbids extensive periods of geological time, or positions humans as the “end result” of whatever processes behind the creation of life will not jive very well with the principles of evolution by natural selection.
The last one is likely the biggest hang-up. Creation stories tend to be teleological, which is precisely what evolution is not. In that respect, I find that most Theistic/Evolutionary syntheses rely more on the work of Lamarck and less on the work of Darwin.
Bnut
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Agreed about the number of conservatives. When it comes down to it, I do watch Real Time (like the the Daily Show) for the laughs. When there are too many conservatives on the panel, esp of the Kingston ilk, it means the show will be less funny, but more prone to having a clip become blog fodder.
Mark S.
I remember one time my mom and I were at a mall and we stumbled into a Thomas Kinkade gallery. The employees were nice if a tad cultish. There was something about how he puts the numbers 1,3, and 7 in all of his paintings or something. I don’t remember if that had some Helter Skelter meaning or not.
From his wikipedia page:
Somehow, despite selling ten billion paintings, his company had to file for bankruptcy.
Martin
@Kyle:
They’re awesome because minorities don’t live there.
Mark
Real Time was humiliating last night. Jack Kingston is a mental midget who should get destroyed every time he opens his mouth, but Bill Maher still hasn’t figured out how to do this.
I’m torn between thinking Kingston is just that stupid and thinking that he’s a liar. Regardless, watching a show with Darrell Issa, Amy Holmes, S.E. Cupp, Steve Moore and Jack Kingston is my own personal hell.
Redshift
@Mark:
Always important to remember that, as with “stupid or evil,” this is not an either/or question.
Mark
@Redshift: I know. In the past, I thought Kingston was just purely stupid, but he had trouble sticking to his guns in this show, and I saw the lying part really poking out.
jl
School of Kincade is probably the proper term to use, if you want to be picky about provenance.
Spaghetti Lee
Yeah, the 18th century was not a bad time for science and people who cared about it. Unless he left out a “B.C.” in there.
Villago Delenda Est
This:
Is an indicator of how bad the situation is. You don’t need to recalibrate your brain for much longer time frames to grasp how evolution works. We know, over the last century, well within the human time frame tolerance, how microorganisms react to changes in their environment. Superbugs that are resistant to antibiotics are the result.
But cretins like the Kingston asswipe cannot get it, because it upsets their totally faith based view of the universe. The evidence can be right before their eyes, and they can’t apply it.
Violet
@Villago Delenda Est:
But if they get sick you can bet they’ll demand the very best doctors. And if they or someone they love is infected with a resistant strain of something, they’ll want to know exactly what the current science is on how to treat it. Because being anti-science stops when it comes to their own health and well being.
Sly
@Violet:
If only. People who are ill are often desperate, afraid, and willing to try anything. They’ll fork over cash to faith healing hucksters like Benny Hinn or put their health in the hands of pseudo-scientific jibber-jabber like Therapeutic Touch and Homeopathy. Maybe someone like Kingston won’t, but you can be damn sure that the people who vote for him do.
MikeJ
@The Dangerman:
PZ Myers would disagree. Which is sad. He seems more interested in slamming religion than in promoting science.
And while I have no problem with slamming religion, it certainly makes it harder to promote science if you insist the two are linked.
Mnemosyne
@Sly:
The best part is, there are actually two different creation stories in Genesis. So which one is “literally” true if everything in the Bible is literally true but the two stories contradict one another?
Catholicism has its faults, but at least they’ve accepted evolution since the 1950s and never got bogged down in the silly “6,000 year old Earth” thing.
Yutsano
@Mnemosyne: Most Jews and rabbis would consider a literal reading of Genesis a laughable concept. And not to get all territorial, but it was ours first, so we probably have more insight into the matter than most Christians. But of course the most interesting debate is what is a day to God. It’s mostly considered unknowable.
Mark S.
Huh
They reject the scientific method and they teach science?
And what is it with jackasses like Kingston saying where is all the fossil evidence? What the hell are all those homo erectus and Neanderthal bones? And there’s plenty of evidence of the evolution of horses.
Viva BrisVegas
@Mark S.:
The problem is that the evidence has been “politicised”. They can’t trust anything that’s been politicised. Especially when they went to so much trouble to politicise it in the first place.
And what’s with D.L.Hughley and evolution? Was he being sarcastic, sincere or just plain dumb? Or is he angling for a gig on The View?
Calouste
@Mnemosyne:
There’s a (possibly apocryphal) story that JPII told Stephen Hawking that he was fine with the theories of the development of the universe, but that everything before the Big Bang was the domain of the church.
freelancer
Fuck. I’ve tried to post twice WRT links calling out creationism. Consider this a test.
Calouste
Egypt is kicking Al-Jazeera out of the country, cancelling all their licenses and accreditations.
Triassic Sands
@Violet:
No, actually, if they get a viral infection they’re likely to demand antibiotics and I don’t think someone like Kingston is going to be asking questions about the latest “science.” More likely, he’ll want to know about the latest marketing campaign by some pharmaceutical company.
I have to disagree here. Being anti-science is not a convenience; it’s a deeply ingrained way of life. A moronic anti-evolutionist is not going to accept evolution because treatment of his or her illness somehow involves knowledge that has been enhanced by our understanding of evolution. One doesn’t have to believe in evolution to allow a doctor to treat an illness scientifically. In reality, to the moronic anti-evolutionist, it’s probably all voodoo at this point. They want whatever works, but getting it won’t make them reconsider their own ignorance.
Wrong. Given the conditions necessary for the formation of fossils, there shouldn’t be lots of fossil evidence — and there isn’t. Hominoid and hominid fossils are quite rare. There are enough to support evolution, but few enough to leave holes in our knowledge of exactly what happened and when. And that’s why people keep looking and every so often there is a “major” new find — one that often consists of a skull fragment and a tooth or three. Occasionally, there is a spectacular find, like “Ardi” (45% complete) or “Lucy.” It is often noted that the world’s entire collection of hominid fossils would fit in a large drawer or on a pool table. There are now thousands of individual fossils, but most are small fragments. Complete fossils, whether you’re talking about skulls or skeletons, are very rare. “Lucy” may be the most famous fossil find in history, and much of her fame rests on the completeness of her skeleton, which is only about 40%. However, for 40% of one skeleton to have survived the intervening more than 3 million years is truly amazing.
Now, ignoramuses like Kingston may try to use the fragmentary nature of the evidence to deny evolution, but while there is still much information missing, what we have is more than enough to support evolution by natural selection. What is clear from the evidence is that homo sapiens have a common ancestor with other great apes and we have evolved over millions of years. Our exact lineage is unknown, and may be unknowable, although the time may come when the evidence will be adequate to allow a fair degree of confidence. As new finds surface, our knowledge increases and not uncommonly the best guess as to how we got to where we are changes, often subtly. What doesn’t change is the overall conclusion — modern humans did not appear fully formed on Earth some 6000 years ago.
Calouste
Oh, and for anyone who doubt what Isreal wants out of this situation, let’s quote Netanyahu:
No mention of democracy, they were quite happy with the last three decades of Mubarak and can they have some more.
freelancer
They can’t maintain a simultaneous North Korea attitude to corporations, business, and the press; and continue to maintain any level of Eurasian corporate interest. If you buck enough, Israel would form a treaty agreement to dig a new channel just North of Gaza through Jordan and an uninhabitable, yet “Holy” portion of Saudi Arabia to reach the Red Sea. Commerce will circumvent Egypt if need be, but you can’t abandon Western contracts with the entire Eastern Hemisphere, and the excuse of not being able to go around Africa is no excuse at all.
Modusoperandi
@Mark: “Real Time was humiliating last night. Jack Kingston is a mental midget who should get destroyed every time he opens his mouth, but Bill Maher still hasnât figured out how to do this.”
The thing you have to realize is that Maher is ignorant. Not the same kind of ignorance as a boob like Kingston, but still ignorant (Kington’s is willful, Maher’s is sloth). Remember Maher on vaccines/germ theory? He’s on that line where he doesn’t know what he doesn’t know…but with his wit and the facts he could be really good. Instead (and I can’t be alone in this) his wit is cut by him resting it on a foundation of happening to be on the right side rather than knowing the facts that put one there. Being right is more than just knowing the other guy is wrong.
Granted, my view may be coloured somewhat by the fact that I find him insufferably smug.
Sly #25 “Theyâll fork over cash to faith healing hucksters like Benny Hinn or put their health in the hands of pseudo-scientific jibber-jabber like Therapeutic Touch and Homeopathy.”
Pah! Lies! The Real Power of Healing™ is in Therapeutic Stare! Here, I’ll give you a dose for free:
Larv
@jharp:
I assume he’s referring to the appropriations subcommittee that Kingston chairs.
JGabriel
Steve Benen:
The 18th century, the Age of Enlightenment? That’s far too modern for Republicans.
The GOP is interested in nothing but religion, weapons, and pleasing their rich patrons — which places them solidly in the 14th century, just before the Renaissance.
.
gnomedad
I avoid speaking of “belief” in evolution, which I fear plays into the hands of the “it’s just another religion!” crowd, and try to use “acceptance” instead.
RSA
@Triassic Sands:
Surprisingly, one doesn’t have to believe in evolution to be a doctor, either. Doctors are less likely to be creationists than the general public, but they fall between lay people and scientists in their views. (Doctors aren’t scientists.)
gnomedad
@Yutsano:
No offense intended, and I’m pretty sure I know what you mean, but I would suggest that you are using the term “creationist” in a way virtually no one else does. I take “creationism” to be synonymous with “rejection of evolution”.
Tom M
I had to walk out of the room, I find Maher less watchable each year and concomitantly less funny. My wife watched more of the show and pointed out that Kingston was not alone on the show not believing in evolution. So, too, was DL Hughley.
So beat up Kingston, (who’s on the show because Bill thinks he’s cute and he laughs at Bill’s jokes) but please give brother Hughley some love, too.
And don’t forget Nixonland. Kingston’s been in Congress going on 20 years. He’s still laughing today.
polyorchnid octopunch
You know what’s funny about this? Kim Campbell was viewed as a poor prime minister, driven too much by ideology, though hers was economic, not scientific. She destroyed the Progressive Conservative party in Canada, which permitted the Reform party to take over the Progressive Conservative party, turning it into the Conservative Party of Canada (CPC), with a leadership run by what can only be described as Canadian Republicans. And yet… even she’s way out ahead.
gene108
@Sly:
I’m not sure why you lump homeopathy in with faith healing. It was founded by a 19th century German and is a form of medicine used in many places throughout the world. It has its own rules for how to treat illnesses, which doesn’t rely on divine intervention.
Richard Fox
The Prime Minister’s mention of antibiotics as an example of evolution was a brilliant and simple riposte. Very clearly one can see the effects of over prescribing antibiotics, and the look on Rep. Kingston’s face was priceless when confronted with this salient point. I used to think he was ignorant, but I know from his appearance on this show that he is just a lying to the masses / anything for a power position kind of guy. How silly of me, to think he was merely ignorant. Live and learn..
Anya
@jharp:
I am guessing he means that he’s not the sole overseer of the committee.
@Tom M: The difference is DL Hughley is a comedian with a GED, the other is a congressman. I think there is a difference.
Woodrowfan
@gene108: \
No, it’s an idiotic form of faith-healing that has failed every clinical test it’s even been put through. And it isn’t true because it’s used all over the world. So is witchcraft.
As usual, XKCD has a funny take on it..
http://xkcd.com/765/
Turgid Jacobian
@jharp: Ranking member of the House Appropriations Subcommittee on Agriculture, Rural Development, Food and Drug Administration, and Related Agencies.
*ETA:* multiple pwngasm.
Tom M
@Anya:
No, there is not a difference, not if the issue is a push for science education and the belief in education. Hughley deserves the same opprobrium heaped on Kingston for this issue.
A comic on a comic’s show. An idiot’s an idiot.
Kirbster
I’ve never understood biblical literalism. It implies that a myth, parable, or fable can’t teach a moral lesson. As if the story of “The Good Samaritan” is worthless liberal propaganda unless it was about a real historical person from Samaria helping a real Jewish mugging victim in old Judea.
Anya
@Tom M: Hughley is an ignorant layman who bases his opposition to Evaluation on the fallacy that we evolved from monkeys. Kingston is in a position where his ignorance impacts public policies while Hughley is just another idiot. They are not the same.
Cat Lady
Cat + keyboard = moderation.
Like Joseph Campbell once said, being a Biblical literalist is like going to a restaurant and eating the picture of the hamburger thatâs on the menu. Even that makes more sense than what creationists believe.
ppcli
@polyorchnid octopunch:
Well, to be fair to Kim Campbell (now there’s a phrase I never imagined I would find myself typing) blaming her for the destruction of the Progressive Conservatives is in the ballpark of blaming Obama for the recession that was created by actions and events entirely on Bush’s watch. She inherited an untenable situation.
Mulroney and his minions so thoroughly destroyed the party’s reputation with incompetence and corruption that nothing short of reincarnating Wilfred Laurier could have brought it back. Add to that the Reform party contesting the previously solid west, and Lucien Bouchard (another gift from ol’ Byron Muldoon to the Canadian people) and his Bloc QuĂ©becois draining off a previously solid cluster of QuĂ©bec ridings, and it was hopeless. (Well, Bouchard plus the fact that Campbell lacked the one positive quality that I will credit Mulroney for: he really did speak fluid French like the Baie Comeau working-class kid he was.)
And on top of everything else Mulroney hung on so long that there was only a few months left in the mandate before Campbell took over. She didn’t have time to do much before she had to call an election. Of course, you’re right that she made things even worse in the brief time she had the reins.
All that said, I must say she acquitted herself pretty well here. She’s much less of a gasbag than she was as a politico. Those years as a diplomat must have matured her.
Triassic Sands
@RSA:
I’d phrase that somewhat differently — Doctors aren’t necessarily scientists. Some definitely aren’t, but some are absolutely scientists — especially doctors involved in medical research.
batgirl
At the very end Kingston looks to the NRO guy Will Cain to back him up about evolution and Cain says to him, don’t look at me, I believe in evolution.
RSA
@Triassic Sands:
I agree; I overstated the matter. I was thinking about this issue a couple of years ago when I was arguing with a creationist medical doctor. Here’s a funny thing I discovered: When you type Are doctors scientists? into Google, the first hit is Doctors are not scientists, an editorial in the British Medical Journal. But it’s a generalization that doesn’t always hold.
Uloborus
@Yutsano:
God, my mother’s Rabbi *is a literal creationist who denies evolution*. I didn’t even know they EXISTED. I was like ‘What the fuck? How orthodox can you GET? Genesis has been understood as an allegory by mainstream Judaism for… all of recorded history.’
phoebesmother
@gene108: Because it relies on believing that water has “memory” of molecules diluted in it, often to the point of an infinitesimal residue of the “healing” molecule being present. Its chemistry is 19th century, it fails its mission in scientific trials, and its biological basis is weak. Using homeopathy for common, transient illnesses convinces people that it “works” when it’s one’s immune system and time doing the work. Using homeopathy for life-threatening maladies is dangerous. Remember laetrile?
Also see Mitchell & Webb on homeopathy. Especially the beers shared at the end.
timb
@Mark: What’s up with Amy Holmes. She seems so reasonable (if wrong), but if you hear her on Moonie radio, she makes Fox looks like a liberal propaganda network. How can such a person align with cons?
timb
@Triassic Sands: Don’t forget the contribution that microbiology and studies of DNA show how closely chimps are related to us
Jay
I’d never defend a clod like Kingston, but I do think he and Maher deserve each other, given that Maher is a prominent “anti-Vaxer” (look up his conversation with Bill Frist, and you’ll see what I mean). Maher was on fire during the Plame mess, but it seems both he and the quality of his guests fell off since. I’d love to see HBO ditch him and offer Dave Chappelle a sweet deal instead.
georgia pig
Having spent a good deal of time in his district, I don’t think Kingston is a boob, he just plays one on television. My impression is that Kingston is a liar, and a downright effective one. He wouldn’t be caught dead giving any credence to evolution because he knows that would screw him with his SE Georgia constituents, which consist largely of religious fundamentalists and right wing retirees. My guess is that he played dumb in response to Campbell’s question because he perfectly well knows its implications.
asiangrrlMN
@Yutsano: Ditto this. Laissez-faire is how I see it. I don’t know why this never gets mentioned (that one can be both).
sherparick
The only thing I disagree with Benen’s column is that this crew is taking the U.S. back to the 18th Century. Not true, as Ben Franklin, John Adams, and Thomas Jefferson are all rolling over in their graves right now. (Franklin in particular would be just as famous now in scientific history if the American Revolution never took place, basically being the founder for study of Electricity, meteorology, and Oceanography.) Nope, these guys want to take us back to the 8th century. World of Fahrenheit 451 here we come.
Amanda in the South Bay
In the US, many of the most diehard creationists will brag about their engineering degrees (substitute computer science or math, possibly). Religion is the problem, not technical training.
Amanda in the South Bay
@Triassic Sands:
Well, usually the ones who also have a PhD, right?
Sly
@gene108:
Well, let me put it this way: If homeopathy works, everything we know about pharmacology and chemistry is wrong. Not just wrong, but hideously and grievously wrong. How wrong? Well, here’s just one example:
Next time you make yourself a cup of coffee, put a teaspoon of sugar in it (if you don’t normally). Taste it. Add another teaspoon. Taste it again. Add a few more teaspoons. Taste it yet again. Is the coffee getting less sweet the more sugar you add? If so, then homeopathy works.
Jules
Really, former Canadian Prime Minister Kim Campbell was the best part of the show.
Just the way she looked at Kingston was enough to make me lol.
Nutella
The question “do you believe in evolution” always annoys me. Evolution is an observable fact, not a matter of belief. Do you believe the sun rose in the east this morning? It’s the same kind of question.
Belief comes into it only when it comes to the scientific method: Do you believe that testable, repeatable, observable phenomena exist? Or is everything random and/or directed down to the sub-molecular level by some god?
ruemara
@Sly:
Hmm. I’ve found homeopathy that worked for me. I love science and acknowledge that it doesn’t conform to any scientific principles. I am also a raging liberal. This broad brush, you may wish to not use it.
Re: Bill Maher. When he referred to President Obama as a dog last week, he lost me. So fuck him right up his bipartisan liberaltarian ass.
Emerald
@gene108: Homeopathy was founded around 1800 in a time when medical science was virtually nonexistent. It’s central idea is that you treat disease by ingesting medicines that are highly diluted forms of the poisons that cause the diseases. The more diluted the “medicine,” the more powerful it becomes. Hence, today’s homeopathic medicines are more diluted than one molecule of, say, sulfur, awash in all the oceans of the world. They consist entirely of water and sugar pills. There is nothing else in them.
And if that isn’t pseudo-science, I don’t know what is.
But good people who don’t know any better spend big money on it. Homeopathy is still very big in Europe, especially Germany and England.
Don’t accuse only conservatives of being science illiterate. Plenty of that stuff on the left too. We believe what we want to believe.
See James Randi for further explanation of homeopathy. http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/encyclopedia.html
Mike G
@polyorchnid octopunch:
Kim Campbell was viewed as a poor prime minister, driven too much by ideology, though hers was economic, not scientific. She destroyed the Progressive Conservative party in Canada.
One of the great election blowouts of all time. They went into the election the ruling party with 170 seats. After the election they had just 2 seats!
Mike G
@Emerald:
Donât accuse only conservatives of being science illiterate. Plenty of that stuff on the left too. We believe what we want to believe.
The difference being that most homeopathy enthusiasts don’t combine their belief with a self-righteous smug authoritarian obnoxiousness and demand that it be given equal time in medical schools’ curriculum.
People believe in all kinds of non-empirical ideas for all kinds of personal reasons. What gets me is the solipsism of cramming them down everyone else’s throat.
Ecks
@polyorchnid octopunch: To be totally fair about this, the Conservative party was pretty much destroyed by 3 terms of Mulroney and some big scandals before Campbell got selected to be PM. In fact, the only reason she became PM is that the party was so badly toast that no bigger shot wanted the job.
I was a little young at the time, but near as I can tell the kind of ideological thing that got her in trouble was basically excessive honesty. There was a budget crunch on at the time, and she said things in her election campaign like “well of course taxes are going to have to go up.” She was right, they did, but admitting to, y’know, reality in the middle of an election campaign is a universally suicidal act in most advanced democracies. I still think of her (and a few others) to this day when I hear people complaining about politicians. We demand that they are honest, forthright, and competent, and then never ever vote for them if they actually are.
RSA
@Mike G:
Another difference is that homeopathy enthusiasts, at least the ones I’ve met, believe in it because it’s apparently worked for them. They’re fooled by the evidence, but at least they’re actively trying things out. Creationism is completely driven by authority.
Ecks
@ppcli: Oh, heh, you got there first. Um, ditto :)
Modusoperandi
@RSA: “Another difference is that homeopathy enthusiasts, at least the ones Iâve met, believe in it because itâs apparently worked for them. Theyâre fooled by the evidence, but at least theyâre actively trying things out. Creationism is completely driven by authority.”
Hmmm. They could both be the Placebo Effect. Stay with me now:
It’s just crazy enough to be correct. Now to figure out how to double-blind test it.
Emerald
@Mike G:
A fair point, but it’s still dangerous. There are many people who believe in this stuff and rely on it when they’re sick. Most of the time that’s OK, the condition clears up on its own anyway. Plus, placebos actually can be effective–if you’re not too sick.
But when you really need a real doctor and real medicine, relying on magic instead can make you really dead.
Monala
I will note that one can acknowledge antibiotic resistance and not accept evolution. There are creationists who accept microevolution (genetic change within a genus or species) but not macroevolution (the whole shebang). After all, bacteria that has evolved to be resistant to antibiotics is still bacteria, right? It hasn’t become some other entity. (Not saying I agree with this; just outlining the argument).
Bill Maher is anti-vax? Hasn’t he also gone on some anti-breastfeeding rants, too? Strange, because most anti-vaxers I know are very pro-breastfeeding.