The word neocon doesn’t have a precise definition, but for me, Commentary and Weekly Standard are the two principle organs of neoconservatism. I’m not surprised to see that they are generally in favor of ousting Mubarak and instituting democracy in Egypt, since I’ve always though they took all this freedom very seriously. I don’t have much regard for their opinions, because I don’t think they have much of a logical, empirical basis, but they’re not just cynical Obama-bashers or Israel-firsters. Marty Peretz on the other hand, is just an asshole who hates Arabs.
Update. I am trying to copyright my name but the html is not cooperating.
Update. It is working now.
MikeJ
Ten minutes after posting and still no comments. There’s nothing more to add to this post.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Marty Peretz on the other hand, is just an asshole who hates Arabs.
I finally got around to reading that NYT Mag article. The only thing that surprised me was the way he mocked Judaism as a religion. Just a stone racist was the only conclusion I could draw.
I wasn’t surprised but still disgusted at the way the Usual Suspects, Michael Kinsley at their head, making the usual defense, the same way they do for Buchanan, did for Novak, and god knows how many others. I’m a big Al Gore fan, but his close relationship with Peretz always bothered me.
Parallel 5ths (Jewish Steel)
My sweet neocons?
ee cummings?
catclub
“but they’re not just cynical Obama-bashers or Israel-firsters.”
Did you proofread that post? It doesn’t look it.
Does the quoted phrase have and extra ‘not’?
There is also a ‘though’ when I believe a ‘thought’ is called for. (Thought is often called for, and often lacking.)
Could you present any evidence that they are NOT Israel firsters?
Did I simply get trolled by a completely satirical posting?
Then why the last line?
Neddie Jingo
Dreadful writer, too…
Doesn’t get much clumsier than that. Also:
I have been on this earth for a good long time now, and never have I seen a “stirring of protest” rise and hover in the air, esp. by means of supernatural or magical power, which is the only definition my laptop Merriam gives.
Alex S.
@Parallel 5ths (Jewish Steel):
And/or the Rolling Stones
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
One of the many ways in which the world changed between 1914 and 1947 as a result of the two world wars was that we in the US loaned Britain much more money than they could afford to repay and eventually as a consequence we effectively foreclosed on and took title to many pieces of what used to be the British Empire, ex the Commonwealth countries.
This was something of an ideological embarrassment given our anti-colonial origins and widespread 19th and early 20th century American hostility towards the British Empire. During the Cold War this mess was papered over using anti-Communism as a fig leaf, but after 1991 it became necessary to find a new fig leaf.
The Neocon movement is the new fig leaf. It is old school British imperialism dressed up in nicer clothing for American domestic consumption. Depending on the individual neocon the imperialism in question may be more or less US-centric or Israel-centric, but that matters less than providing the fig leaf. That is why the Neocon movement is so internally incoherent, because it is a problem in search of a solution rather than the other way around.
Amir_Khalid
Ugh. You referred to an obscure — and not very good — song from A Bigger Bang which serves only to prove that Sir Mick Jagger should leave political commentary the hell alone.
daveNYC
I don’t even know what to make of that post. Peretz just seemed to be rambling like Grandpa Simpson.
We can’t bust heads like we used to, but we have our ways. One trick is to tell ’em stories that don’t go anywhere – like the time I caught the ferry over to Shelbyville. I needed a new heel for my shoe, so, I decided to go to Morganville, which is what they called Shelbyville in those days. So I tied an onion to my belt, which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on ’em. Give me five bees for a quarter, you’d say.
DlewOnRoids
You know, all this talk about how Peretz hates Arabs tends to obscure the fact that he’s an incredibly crappy writer.
But he’s good at marrying money, so there’s that.
A Writer At Balloon-Juice
@catclub:
No, they’re really not primarily Israel-firsters, they’re not. Peretz is, they’re not. Their craziness comes from a different place.
I’ll grant Commentary’s coverage has a touch of Israel first to it, but Kristol’s commentary just doesn’t have any that I could find.
Amanda in the South Bay
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
I think that’s a gross simplification. After all, the 1956 Suez adventure didn’t fail because Israel, Britain and France lost militarily on the ground to Egypt. It failed because of US unwillingness to support Franco-British neo imperialist military designs (whew, that was a mouthful, it sounds like something from a left wing foreign policy book you buy at some left wing bookstore in a big city).
hilts
Another example of Marty Peretz being an asshole
Marty Peretz Tells Piers Morgan The Media Is Engaging In ‘Professional Narcissism’
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/marty-peretz-tells-piers-morgan-the-media-is-engaging-in-professional-narcissism
Peretz: “Frankly I thought you guys and women were engaging in a little professional narcissism. Revolutions are not birthday parties.”
Parallel 5ths (Jewish Steel)
@Alex S.: Ah, got it. Wow, that’s deep in the vault.
aimai
@daveNYC:
FTW.
I knew I recognized the style of that Peretz piece. I actually identified it more with the snotty, know it all, undergraduate who hasn’t really done the reading at all. The line about Nasser taking over from his own lackey had that ring of utter garbage–why would you take over from your own lackey? Does that even make any sense? But the entire rest of the piece is foaming at the mouth jerkiness too.
aimai
JGabriel
OT*, but: In response to this Reuters article on Jamie Dimon’s fee-fees (via Krugman), I suggest we start a thread entitled, “Jamie Dimon Is An Asshole”.
*Or not. It is about an asshole, after all.
.
Bulworth
Marty says:
No, no, of course not.
New Yorker
I’m actually rather surprised by this. I always took Commentary to be nothing but an Israeli ultra-nationalist publication and you can be sure the Israeli right is not happy about the prospect of Mubarak being forced from power.
Kudos to Commentary and The Weekly Standard, I guess. This still doesn’t come close to absolving Bill Kristol for his role in the Iraq War and Sarah Palin’s VP candidacy, of course.
Cris
I like Larison’s synonym for neocons: “democratists.” I take both words to mean, essentially, people who believe that the proper role of US military and diplomatic influence is “spreading democracy,” regardless of whether it serves US interests. There’s a certain nobility to it, and a certain naivete.
burnspbesq
Your influence continues to spread. McMegan is now building post titles around Dr. Seuss.
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/02/hosni-k-mubarak-will-you-please-go-now/70791/
catclub
@A Writer At Balloon-Juice:
I am still confused. Maybe you are trying to describe Commentary and Weekly Standard, but I would think that “Douglas Feith” is one working definition of NeoCon.
And wasn’t there a ‘spying for Israel via AIPAC scandal’, in which I would bet that Commentary and the Weekly Standard did NOT come out against such spying – wasn’t it an employee of Feith who was investigated?
Maybe I am just confused.
GregB
Martin Peretz is an anagram for Teeni Peniz. If you leave out a few letters and re-use a few more.
General Stuck
Thoughtful idiots often create more mayhem that the regular kind of idiot. Everyone likes democracy, not everyone thinks that it has to be democracy, or else. This is the neo con. They may prefer democracy, but they are ultimately agents of chaos, and relish the possibility of using some type of force to impose it. It is what gets them up in the morning, because the possibility of chaos and instability might lead to dropping bombs on someone, is an aphrodisiac of sorts, that is easily covered by a faux desire for something sane folks would want. In this case, democracy.
They are not Israel firsters, but sense that imposing democracy on Egypt, now, as opposed to when Egytpians evolve to it naturally, themselves, either by pol pressure, or even other more direct forms of pressure, will create the chaos they crave, and all of the attendant juicy possibilities for sating their militaristic fantasies., which is the bottom line of what they are for. IMHO
edit – or what Cris said
burnspbesq
@General Stuck:
Wow. You sincerely believe that? Based on what evidence?
General Stuck
@burnspbesq:
Iraq, Central America in the eighties, etc… What, you think they don’t like droppings bombs on people and warfare in general . seriously?
General Stuck
didn’t mean to kill the thread. I don’t like neo cons much, or any, and believe they are very dangerous people, especially when one of their own sits in the oval office.
El Cid
Israeli policymakers aren’t that keen on having a controllable tyrant replaced by some potentially more democratic Egyptian regime.
There it’s assumed, as is by US leadership, that a government not under the Mubarak military tyranny could either be a moderated continuation or could go beyond general US and Israeli leaders’ aims and national defense and Palestinian occupied territory control strategies.
Israeli interests as defined by the standard militarist Israeli leadership are not served by democracies in the region which are too closely attuned to their populations.
On the other hand, replacing a really unstable military dictatorship with a more palatable and stable elected government which will still be following the US-allied and funded military would be fine with Israeli leaders.
Although I’m sure that no matter what happens, a potential Egyptian real elected government would still not change Israeli leaders and Western supporters’ repeating that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, except for those colonially occupied areas and Israeli Arabs with dwindling authority and rights.
RP
@General Stuck:
I don’t agree with this. I think they do get excited about the prospect of war, but not because they want chaos for chaos’ sake. I think it’s more that they have a childish interest in being a part of something important. It goes back to the “greatest generation” stuff — they view WWII as the ideal that this country should always strive for. They want to be a part of history, and big wars in support of democracy are the easiest path.
It’s incredibly silly and naive of course. WWII was a unique case and is almost never applicable to other conflicts and countries.
Mo MacArbie
Damn, A Writer, it’s like she’s goading you.
Observer
@General Stuck:
and at last we arrive to see a glimmer of a mythical destination, albeit only for the briefest of moments: truth.
From this truth, all others can flow, but if you look at it directly, it magically disappears.
General Stuck
@RP:
Didn’t mean to imply they like chaos for chaos sake. Meant to say they like chaos because it often is the best situation to get excited about war, and have some of it. Some of them may be true believers in the outcome, more than the method of using military power as the point of the diplomatic spear to achieve it, others, like say Dick Cheney, and others, I think purely like the chaos as a means unto the desire for using sheer force to exert control. Or, they crave power and control, more than the political ends beyond, or instead of the official neo con philosophy. There are different types of neo cons, and motivations, I will agree to that.
cmorenc
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ :
Um…didn’t you inadvertently state the above back-asswardness of the neocons backwards? Shouldn’t the above instead read: “the Neocon movement is so internally incoherent, because it is a solution in search of a problem rather than the other way around ??
General Stuck
Okay, this is hyperbole. I have no direct proof Dick Cheney gets sexually aroused by dropping bombs on people.
srv
@General Stuck:
Fair Leo Strauss called this “constructive chaos.” You need enough chaos for the proper people to gain control.
*In this case, the appropriate Egyptian Generals who are less tainted than Suleiman and graduates of the appropriate US military institutions (ie, on the payroll).
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@cmorenc:
No, because their solution is internally incoherent, to put it mildly. They are trying to justify the US (plus or minus Israel) treating the rest of the world as if they were Treaty of Versailles mandates, like Syria and Palestine circa 1930, but they try to do so using the language of Wilsonian internationalism. That makes no sense at all and it isn’t a solution to anything.
The problem is: we got caught red handed taking possession of stolen goods in the form of post-WW2 imperialism inherited from the British. The solution is: try to make up some sort of excuse and serve that dish to the American public with so much freedom sauce on top that it covers up the bad taste.
srv
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: Hmmm. Freedom Sauce. You should trademark that.
Smedley
@catclub:
ummm.. did you proof read your post?
“…have and extra ‘not’”
I do agree with you that posts here, and on other sites, are often sloppy. When it interferes with the flow of prose it takes my attention away from the author’s high minded ideas.
A Writer At Balloon-Juice
@catclub:
I think there is so much overlap between what they want — the overthrow of every government in the Arab world — and being Israel first, that it can be hard to tell where one ends and the other begins sometimes. But I think in this case the two diverge and they are mostly following the freedom stuff. I still think they’re nuts.
I probably shouldn’t lump the two magazines together, because with Commentary, there is quite a lot of Israel firstism, I admit. Just not quite as much as one might think.
Villago Delenda Est
Marty Peretz is simply a racist asswipe.
He’s in the same camp as the militarists in Israel who would have no problem at all with rounding up Palestinians and putting them in camps. Which is essentially what they’ve done in Gaza.
Peter
Neoconservatism: n. A political ideology, the unifying tenet of which is that there is no problem facing America today that cannot be solved by picking an unpopular country full of brown people and bombing the he’ll out of it.
Martin
Doug,
©© doesn’t work?schrodinger's cat
@DougJ(c)
What have you done DougJs a and b?
agrippa
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
You are on to something with your post # 34.
I agree with both paragraphs.
Pococurante
hmm. Doug is on a roll.
Buttered?
srv
Doug, I think the use of the Registered Mark is a legal offence, you need to use TM for at least 5 years.
eemom
@schrodinger’s cat:
They’re helping the Cat clean the pink out of the snow.
VOOM.
(somebody pleeeez tell me they get that…)
schrodinger's cat
@eemom: I don’t.
Here is a guess
Cat=Tunch
Pink=John Cole’s blood in the snow
minachica
@eemom: But what about little cat Z?
George Freeman
That’s not a copyright symbol (on my keyboard optionG). That’s a registered trademark. Have you registered that logotype?
fuckwit
I’ve suspected this for many years.
Just like “pro-lifers” are actually just anti-sex, I’ve long suspected that neocons are actually just Arab-haters. This is what would make fundamentalist Christians and corporate bigwings, for example, find common cause with Likkudnik right-wingers in Israel.
Haven’t found a way to prove it in the case of the Arab-haters though. I definitely found a way to prove it in the case of the anti-sex’ers: just ask a “pro-lifer” what’s their position on birth control.
Svensker
@Villago Delenda Est:
Oh, you mean like Mike Huckabee?
eemom
@minachica:
yay!!! Thank you.
eemom
@schrodinger’s cat:
The Cat In The Hat Comes Back, by my beloved Dr Seuss.
BruceFromOhio
I thought it was the lawyers and the agents that were generally the cause.
… still think Arkon DougJ was the peak.
Epicurus
It is my considered opinion that Peretz actually lost his mind about 20 years ago, and no one has had the decency to commit him. He is an ardent Zionist and a bigot of the highest order. I have often been angered by his apparent disdain for and dehumanization of the entire Arab world. Also, too, I believe that Commentary and The Weekly Standard are in fact the principal organs of neoconservatism.
Nic108
Neocons don’t have a “freedom agenda”. They want an Empire internationally and a police state domestically. And of course, they’re Israel Firsters.