From the shit you can’t make up file:
Controversies over honoring Confederate heritage are not uncommon in the South, but some activists in Mississippi are pushing the envelope even further. The Mississippi Division of Sons of Confederate Veterans is proposing a license plate that honors Confederate Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest, who was also an early leader of the Ku Klux Klan.
Following the Civil War, Forrest was involved with the very first incarnation of the KKK. He was so closely associated with the group’s formation that he is sometimes incorrectly referred to as the KKK’s founder — though he was quickly elected Grand Wizard, and began centralizing disparate KKK groups under his authority. He believed that while blacks were now free, they had to continue to toil quietly for white landowners. “I am not an enemy of the negro,” Forrest said. “We want him here among us; he is the only laboring class we have.”
What is wrong with people?
erlking
They’re assholes.
SASQ
BR
Don’t forget defender-of-liberty Ron Paul’s lead off speaker at his first congressional hearing:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/09/AR2011020905879.html
anon84
I can’t decide whether Mississippi is trying to be the Arizona of the Deep South or if Arizona is trying to be the Mississippi of the South West.
mr. whipple
This comes immediately after the ‘goopers aren’t nearly as insane as I feared thread.’
Heh.
General Stuck
Mean and crazy? Never could figure out the hate. Something to do with “honor” that doesn’t mean what it sounds like it means to these people.
But if we’re lucky, the last one of these threads by DennisG, long after the thread was dead, several actual Sons of the Confederacy showed up to explain it all. I just happened to check it below the fold. Fascinating the level of rationalization, sounded like a bunch of Johns caught in a cathouse raid.
Poor Forrest Gump, why did his momma name him that?
WyldPirate
They miss the “good old days” prior to 1865.
/SATSQ
scav
Forrest couldn’t say that about brown people now and be a member in good standing of the GOP.
mai naem
@anon84: I kind of find this offensive. Yes, Arizona is bad we are not Mississippi. I am pretty sure we haven’t had a lynching, at least in the traditional sense of the meaning. A lot of Arizona’s current nutiness is fueled by a really crappy economy and the automatic urge to blame illegal aliens.
cyntax
They’re treasonous SOB’s?
Joel
Some bullies never left the playground behind.
Stillwater
A lot of Mississippi’s current nuttiness is fueled by a really crappy economy and the automatic urge to blame negroes.
Common Sense
@Stillwater:
always has been.
JWL
If someone in Virginia has a sense of humor, a campaign to honor Nat Turner on its license plates can be launched.
gene108
Not surprising, since many people believe this sort of history about Forrest and the KKK:
“Reconstruction”, the 17 year period after the war when the south was under martial law, and the people basically lost their rights as Americans, was a terrible time for the citizens of the former Confederate States of America. It was intended by the US Congress as punishment for secession. The south was controlled by military leaders, who may have been excellent commanders in battle, but were pretty much universally horrible as governors. A “carpetbagger” government was put in place…men that were generally scoundrels and often criminals, served as “rulers” of the states and communities. They appointed former Union sympathizers and former slaves in positions of authority, to infuriate and humiliate the people. This was pretty much a lawless time throughout much of the south, not unlike that in the western territories. Forrest described that government as “I believe that party to be composed, as I know it is in Tennessee, of the worst men on Gods earth – men who would not hesitate at no crime [sic], and who have only one object in view – to enrich themselves.”
The Ku Klux Klan is a secret organization that has always been shrouded in mystery. Even its very beginnings are sketchy. It is known that 6 former Confederate officers at Pulaski Tennessee, approached Forrest with the idea of a “police force”, for the blessings of Forrest, who held the respect of the people. Forrest gave his blessings, and for it, he was appointed their first leader. The controversy stems in whether Forrest actually played an active part in the organization.
The KKK quickly spread throughout the south. Secrecy was, of course, an important part of this organization, because it was considered illegal by the “carpetbagger” government. Forrest, in an interview with the Cincinnati Commercial stated:
—
“Yes, sir. It is a protective political military organization. I am willing to show any man the constitution of the society. The members are sworn to recognize the government of the United States. It does not say anything at all about the government of Tennessee. Its objects originally were protection against Loyal Leagues and the Grand Army of the Republic; but after it became general it was found that political matters and interests could best be promoted within it, and it was then made a political organization, giving its support, of course, to the democratic party….”
“…Since its organization, the leagues have quit killing and murdering our people. There were some foolish young men who put masks on their faces and rode over the country, frightening negroes, but orders have been issued to stop that, and it has ceased. You may say, further, that three members of the Ku-Klux have been court-martialed and shot for violations of the orders not to disturb or molest people.”
When asked if he was actually a member of the KKK, Forrest stated “I am not, but am in sympathy and will co-operate with them. I know that they are charged with many crimes that they are not guilty of.”
http://www.freeinfosociety.com/article.php?id=184
Suffern ACE
@BR: I’m not even certain what those people were witnesses for? What’s Paul holding hearing on, anyway?
danimal
Holy Carp! Did an Obama campaign operative infiltrate the Mississippi GOP? How colossally stupid are these people?
Haley Barbour can’t be happy about this.
hilts
Mississippi Goddamn!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAYVaHEMK0I
WyldPirate
@Common Sense:
Yeppers. Lot’s of poor white folks in Mississippi and elsewhere in the South (and America for that matter) that are racist simply due to the fact that the only solace they can derive from their economic situation is this: “shit, I may be poor, but it least I ain’t no goddamned nigger”.
It’s how the landed gentry got all of the poor white trash to fight for them in the Civil War. The Rethug Party uses the same sort of strategy today.
me
@Suffern ACE: His committee is studying methods to crucify mankind upon a cross of gold.
Mark S.
I was surprised when driving through Tennessee a little while back and seeing signs for Nathan Bedford Forrest State Park.
Paul in KY
@gene108: For Fort Pillow alone, he should have been executed & certainly not honored on a license plate.
Those U.S. soldiers he massacred marched under our flag.
danimal
Oops, somehow I confused the Mississippi GOP with the Mississippi Division of Sons of Confederate Veterans. I suppose they aren’t entirely the same thing. The Mississippi Division of Sons of Confederate Veterans, I’m sure, has a few old-line Democrats as well.
celticdragonchick
@Paul in KY:
This.
Bedford Forrest should have been hanged by the neck and dumped in an unmarked offal heap.
matoko_chan
@erlking: nah….they are WECs.
you think we live in a Martin Luther King nation?
no way.
we live in a Martin Luther nation.
gene108
@Paul in KY:
I don’t really disagree with anybody’s assessments on this thread.
Just pointing out there are a lot of people, who will fight you tooth and nail to defend Forrest, his involvement with the KKK, the reason for the KKK in the first place and why none of it is as bad as Yankee elitists have made it out to be.
Therefor I don’t find a Forrest license plate or people wanting one, at least, to be surprising in the least.
13th Generation
Used to date a girl back in the day in Atlanta whose family were PROUD descendants of ‘ole Nathan Bedford. Some of the kids were even named after him.
You just can’t understand these old southerners unless you’ve lived here, and even then it often boggles the mind.
Paul in KY
@gene108: You see, Gene, I don’t care about his KKK stuff (as it pertains to the type of person he was).
I despise the POS for murdering our surrendered troops like he was Tamerlane or something.
Most of those doofuses don’t even know about Fort Pillow.
gene108
@Paul in KY: Yeah, but the soldiers, who surrendered at Ft. Pillow were Negroes…so it doesn’t count…(sarcasm)…
Reading up on Forrest defenders is interesting in the alternate history they have built for themselves.
WyldPirate
@Mark S.: Nathan Bedford Forrest State Park was established in 1929–not exactly enlightened times in the South.
I remember meeting for family reunions there when I was a kid in the 60s. It was a nice park and happens to sit on some of the operational area of Forrest’s Civil War operations.
freelancer
Last night, I got Spike Lee’s “4 Little Girls” on Netflix. I was looking for more viewing material on the Civil Rights Movement/Jim Crow, stuff that I haven’t seen, went under the radar, etc. Found this post in the AZCentral about movies about Civil Rights, with an entire post handwringing about “Blaming it all on Mississippi“. Assholes. There’s a REASON that MS is the worst.
Stillwater
@WyldPirate: Lot’s of poor white folks in Mississippi and elsewhere in the South (and America for that matter) that are racist simply due to the fact that the only solace they can derive from their economic situation is this: “shit, I may be poor, but it least I ain’t no goddamned nigger”.
And then they make sure that blacks stay economically disadvantaged relative to themselves, while simultaneously blaming them for their personal condition not being better. Innersting, innit?
WyldPirate
@gene108:
There were white Union troops at Ft. Pillow as well. (not trying to justify what happened at Ft. Pillow, BTW)
ETA–Bad shit happens in every war. Type in Rheinwiesenlager in Wikipedia and read about that. The Allies were not exactly nice to the Germans after their surrender.
cmorenc
What’s really confusing is that many of these neoConfederates are in one-on-one personal interaction, unfailingly polite, courteous, considerate, and friendly, even with black folk. Many of these folks would be absolutely delightful and trustworthy to have as next-door neighbors; the late Sen. Jesse Helms was like that. The southern “Good old boy” definitely has a dual personality. Great neighbor who’d gladly watch your back or house for you when you were away, dangerously malevolent demagogue and proponent of viciously callous policies and racial attitudes who become dangerous and malevolent toward large numbers of people when given a little power.
Snarki, child of Loki
@JWL: How about honoring William Techumseh Sherman?
shortstop
In addition to being vicious, the people who do this stuff are dumber than a box of rocks. Because they can’t grasp simple concepts unless beaten over the head with them, they simply fear that South Carolina’s message was too subtle and might go over people’s heads.
nancydarling
@mai naem: I”m pretty sure if you searched Arizona history carefully you would find more than a few native Americans hanging from trees.
WyldPirate
@Stillwater:
Well, in reality, some of the blacks are not economically disadvantaged WRT to the whites that harbor this attitude. In general, it is a way of easing one’s internal dissatisfaction with their lot in life more than anything else.
Sometimes, I feel like white folks in the South get blamed unfairly for racism like they invented the concept–they didn’t. It’s more a function of “tribalism” and it’s as old as the history of civilization itself.
ETA-to fix spelling error.
dmsilev
@JWL: John Brown would be another good choice.
dms
Ash Can
@BR: That whole article is unreal. Milbank might be an ass, but he’s done a good job of going after the Tea Party wackos.
WyldPirate
@shortstop:
Pardon me, but advocating for a name of a Confederate General Officer on license plate hardly seems to qualify as “vicious”. Insensitive perhaps, but not vicious.
anon84
@ 8.mai naem
So…Given the oppurtunity and sufficient time, you feel Arizona will achieve its full potential?
@ 18.WyldPirate
Or alternatively “shit, I may be Arizona, but it least I ain’t no goddamned Mississippi”
TOP123
@JWL: I was thinking of a commemorative John Brown plate, or “Remember Ft. Pillow”, but Nat Turner, that’s brilliant.
nancydarling
Here in NW Arkansas, we are trying to keep this information from Loy Mauch, newly elected to the Arkansas State House from the Hot Springs area. He has enough of his own goofy ideas without poaching on MS thinking. Here are a couple of paragraphs from the Arkansas Times.
For seven years, Mauch was the commander of James M. Keller Camp 648 of the Sons of Confederate Veterans. He stepped down as commander last year. In 2004, angered by the city of Hot Springs’ refusal to remove a statue of Abraham Lincoln displayed in the Hot Springs Civic and Convention Center, the Keller Camp hosted a conference in Hot Springs called “Seminar on Abraham Lincoln — Truth vs. Myth,” with a keynote address called “Homage to John Wilkes Booth.”
Rep. Loy Mauch failed to win committee approval of a burdensome bill aimed at addressing tinfoil hat club concerns about the supposed addition of mood-altering and other chemicals in treatment of drinking water. Secure Arkansas, naturally, joined the Mauch chorus.
If someone could school me on block quoting, I would be grateful.
RTod
On a more positive note more Mississippians, on the Sons of Confederate Veterans web page the last meeting’s minutes says that the group is bleeding members, and is only 37% as large as a year ago, with most current members not participating at all.
Could it be that Mississippi is better than this? Or that all of the people who thought this was a really cool idea are dying off by old age?
In any case, embarrassing shit.
Mike in NC
Oh, I don’t know. I can picture a sweaty, red-faced Haley Barbour decked out in a gray frock coat, sabre and sash cinched around his ample waist, and wearing a plumed hat as he posed for the photographers while signing this crap into law.
Yesterday I was behind someone with a Sons of Confederate Veterans (rebel flag) license plate. You’re usually required to offer proof of membership in a legitimate organization before the DMV will approve the request. What proof do you have to have to be a member of the SCV?
Omnes Omnibus
@WyldPirate: How about advocating for the name of a Confederate General Officer and founder/first Grand Wizard of the KKK on a license plate?
Brachiator
@cmorenc:
Of course, these supposedly civil white people would never allow a black person to be a next-door neighbor.
The racists who could casually demand that a black person give up his or her seat on a bus were being malevolent one on one, with the power of the state to back them up.
Is it still Black History Month? It is interesting how this vile madness seeps up from the sewers of the nation’s racist subconscious at the darndest times.
kindness
When can I get me my Malcom X plates? My George Soros plates are dirty and I want something new & edgy.
Southern Beale
I’ve posted this here before but here are some photos of the hideously ugly Nathan Bedford Forrest statue some nutter erected on his private property just south of Nashville — and which borders I-65, visible to all traveling to and from town.
It’s just ugly on SO many levels …
Odie Hugh Manatee
As I see it, they can’t get a license plate that proclaims that they are a KKK Member, KKK Grand Wizard, KKK Grand Dragon or KKK Supporter so they are going with the next worst thing.
chris
The Unasked Question.
Wherein Ed asks why more people don’t ask,”what in the hell is wrong with you?” Well worth a read IMHO.
Calouste
@WyldPirate:
No shit Sherlock. People starving to death in a country where the infrastructure has been destroyed, I guess that never happened before.
PTirebiter
@gene108:
Exactly, preserving their myth of the “Nobel Cause” is what this kind of crap is always about. It’s just another version of “teach the controversy.” They have us debating about whether or not Fort Pillow was actually a massacre; the true nature of Forrest’s relationship with the Klan and any other distractions we’re willing to engage over. None of it is relevant to the issue. Is it proper for a state to facilitate the veneration of anyone who denounced their citizenship to fight for such a despicable institution? The answer is no, there’s no controversy, there’s nothing to debate. We don’t need to pass any judgments on the individuals. It’s about their cause and history passed final judgment on it long ago.
shortstop
Damn it, my Braxton Bragg joke is lost in moderation. What did I say?
Emma
BR: Words fail. Someone in another thread said we are all being reduced to seriously?. Yep. That’s all I’ve got.
Seriously?
shortstop
@Omnes Omnibus: He doesn’t really think that’s unvicious. He’s just doing that Frank Burns arbitrary contrarian thing he does to people who’ve hurt his feelings.
lonesomerobot
@Mark S.: yes, very nice. Also a big statue with several Confederate flags off I-65 just south of Nashville, and one of the buildings at Middle Tennessee State University (my alma mater) is named after him.
Can’t get enough of NBF in the TN!
Wile E. Quixote
I think we need to start shitting on these people. We should take up a collection to make Juneteenth a federal holiday. I’d also like to see the Stone Mountain monument demolished and a statue commemorating Ulysses S. Grant, Abraham Lincoln, Philip Sheridan and William Tecumseh Sherman with the caption “The Defenders of the Union, the Scourge of the Confederate Traitors and the Liberators of the South” placed on the mountain.
WyldPirate
@Omnes Omnibus: It still falls into the category of insensitive and idiotic rather than vicious which was the only point that I was trying to make.
Forrest was a lot of things; a millionaire, a slave owner, a successful businessman, an incredibly successful general who had no formal military training. He was also no angel. What he did, though, was pretty much the accepted standard of his times.
Would you want to erase the memory of Thomas Jefferson from any mention in history because he was a slave owner?
I would say what Forrest and his troops were responsible for was certainly less reprehensible than the documented atrocities perpetrated on POWs by US troops in Iraq and Afghanistan that were sanctioned at the highest levels of the US Government. At least what happened to the black troops at Ft. Pillow happened in the heat of battle.
My whole point was to not justify what Forrest did, but to point out that atrocities happen in every war. The nature of war itself is an atrocity committed against humanity–sometimes in an effort to counteract even greater atrociites.
geg6
@WyldPirate:
WTF? Are you serious with this shit? Nothing vicious about Nathan Bedford Forrest? Seriously?
That PhD you have just lost a ton of value in my eyes.
WyldPirate
@shortstop: You’ve never hurt my feelings, shortstop. I was simply pointing out your poor choice of words.
lonesomerobot
@WyldPirate: I’d say, from my experience living in the South, that behind a well-reasoned rationalization for either buying a Nathan Bedford Forrest license plate or introducing the notion that one should exist could very well be a vicious hatred of the Federal government and/or minorities.
I don’t think ignorance is strong enough a word. It’s not an ignorant attempt at an honorable tribute, it’s sending a message. It’s poking a stick in someone’s eye. That, to me, is pretty vicious.
geg6
@Wile E. Quixote:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I love it! I’m down with this. And I want big laser light shows and a narrator sounding like the voice of God telling the moving story of the March to the Sea and the Burning of Atlanta, just like they have there today to commemorate their traitorous bigots. Where can I donate to make it happen?
The next to the last time I crossed the Mason-Dixon Line, my ex dragged me to Atlanta to visit some friends of his. And they dragged us to Stone Mountain for the laser show. I couldn’t even believe my ex or his friends thought for a minute that I would sit through that shit. I started out sputtering and muttering about the nonsense and lies and got a little louder about the veneration of treason and traitors and finally got so disgusted that I walked out and stood in the parking lot, chain smoking in my fury.
Fuck Stone Mountain. I say nuke it.
WyldPirate
@geg6: C’mon, geg. I meant that advocating for the name of Forrest on a license plate was not vicious–not that Forrest did not do vicious shit.
Hell’s bells, the mere act of warfare is fucking vicious no matter who does the act or what act is done. That very concept is why I left the military. I realized that I wanted no part in directing troops in the slaughter of other human beings or sending troops under my direction to their deaths. That kinda happens to you once you see up close and personal and really realize the damage that modern military ordinance can inflict.
shortstop
@Wile E. Quixote: You’re not thinking quite big enough. We should replace “TSSB” with “Marching Through Georgia” as the national anthem.
geg6
@WyldPirate:
Who the hell said they wanted the memory of Nathan Bedford Forrest, bigot and traitor, erased from history? I want it screamed from the mountain tops what a traitor and bigot he was and why we should vilify him endlessly, not honor him with vanity license plates.
Yeah, that white-sheeted bigot was a good guy underneath it all, wasn’t he? At least compared to G.W. and Co. Of course, you’re not taking into account the more than 100 years of carnage wreaked by Forrest’s all-too-willing admirers and imitators who terrorized and killed and committed atrocities on blacks, Jews, Catholics, etc., not on orders from military superiors, but motivated only by the blackness of their own hearts.
Jeebus.
geg6
@WyldPirate:
Anyone who wants a license plate honoring Nathan Bedford Forrest is, no question, a vicious bigot. The idea that I or anyone else, especially African Americans, would be subjected to such a thing is simply vicious. If you can’t see that, you have more problems than I can explain to you.
shortstop
@lonesomerobot:
Sure. It’s an action specifically designed to say “fuck you” to the people who no longer let them call people niggers and segregate, lynch, deny the franchise to or otherwise terrorize and step on the necks of black Mississippi citizens. There’s nothing behind it but viciousness — the endless bullshit about states’ rights and “heritage” and “honoring history” notwithstanding.
rikryah
Did GOvernor Boss Hogg make an official statement on this?
Wile E. Quixote
@shortstop:
How about using The Battle Hymn of the Republic instead. More people know the lyrics, it doesn’t have the lyric about “the darkies” and I’m pretty sure that not even Christina Aguilera could fuck it up. I could be wrong about that last though.
Citizen Alan
@Stillwater:
Agreed. My favorite speech by MLK was his 1965 “Our God Is Marching On” speech in Montgomery, in which he explained the origin of Jim Crow and how it simultaneously impoverished lower class whites while manipulating them into blaming their poverty on blacks. Funny how that never gets as much attention on MLK Day as his other speeches which don’t focus as much on class warfare.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Mike in NC:
You have to prove you are a descendent of a confederate war veteran. I qualify, but of course, I would rather hack off all my limbs with a dull, rusty knife than join that organization.
shortstop
@Wile E. Quixote: Damn, I never really looked at those lyrics before. I like your idea better.
Sarcastro
It’s more a function of “tribalism” and it’s as old as the history of civilization itself.
It’s more a function of “capitalism” and dates to the 16th century.
Tribalist xenophobia is as old as man, but the specific racial nature of what we’re dealing with comes from the African slave trade. Even as late as 1452 the Pope declared slavery to be acceptable based on belief (no Christian slaves) with no hint of racial prejudice. “Saracens, pagans and any other unbelievers” were free game to be reduced to hereditary slavery. But by 1700 the Royal Africa Company had used Britain’s colonial holdings in Africa and the Atlantic – and a little war with the Dutch – to price out any slaves but African ones.
Citizen Alan
@geg6:
Speaking as a white Mississippian, if I ever come across a car with a Nathan Bedford Forrest tag and can do so without getting arrested or shot, I’m gonna key the fuck out of it.
russell
Just spent the weekend in NOLA, with it’s monument to Robt E Lee right downtown and a big statue of Gen Beauregard at the entrance to City Park.
Seriously, there are days when I wanna say fuck the south. And I actually like the south.
In Germany, you are not going to be able to get a license plate memorializing Hitler, or Himmler, or Goering, or even plain old Rommel.
I don’t see much difference between that and the freaking celebration of the glory days of the Confederacy. If someone would like to explain it to me, I’m all ears.
theturtlemoves
@Wile E. Quixote: Philip Sheridan was my, I believe, fourth cousin. He was also a genocidal asshat who wanted to pretty much wipe out every Native American in the country. Generally credited with the delightful phrase, “The only good Indians I ever saw were dead.” So, yeah, good poke in the eye to the neo-Confederates, but a raging bigot in his own right.
serge
I take umbrage at this headline. We here in the great state of South Carolina have a collective, unregenerate stupidity that far outclasses any other pretender…even Texas.
Don’t make me go all Preston Brooks on you!
Barry
@WyldPirate: “ETA—Bad shit happens in every war. ”
True – and bad sh*t should have happened to Forrest.
TOP123
@Wile E. Quixote: Oh, absolutely. Couldn’t stop laughing reading your suggestion! The weird thing is, at least five-ten years ago, I think they used to always close the laser show with Elvis singing the Battle Hymn of the Republic (or at least the Glory Hallelujah part), which struck me as ironic.
Besides, these days a significant majority of the community in Stone Mt., GA are African-American; it’s past time for a facelift on that rock.
Scamp Dog
@WyldPirate: I looked over the Wikipedia article on Rheinwiesenlager, and there are some fundamental differences. The captured Germans were underfed, and the fact that the Red Cross wasn’t allowed to visit the camps until the end raises some flags. Still, the death rate for German POWs held by the Americans was 0.15%, and the only better performance was by the British: 0.03%.
On the other front:
Russian POWs held by Germans: 57.5% died
German POWs held by Soviets: 35.8% died
War is nasty, but the level of nastiness can get better or worse, depending on how you want to do things.
WyldPirate
@geg6:
Goddamn, but do you need a fucking history lesson as well as understanding of word vicious
You can’t point out anywhere that I implied that Forrest was a “good guy”. He was a really good cavalry officer and leader in the military, he was a very successful businessman prior to the war and he was exceedingly wealthy for the times, yes. But all of those things can occur independent of my fucking endorsement of Forrest being a “good guy”.
Your level of vitriol (along with your and others fantasies of commemorating Sherman’s March to the Sea) simply makes you seem as fucking stupid and unreasonable as the dumbassed Confederate hero-worshipping fools that whip up these absurd requests from time to time. It’s fucking silly.
I live in the South and have for almost my entire life. In the last year, I can’t even recall the last time I saw a goddamned Confederate flag. I can’t recall the last time I saw one of the idiotic shirts, bumper stickers or other crap saying the “South will rise again”, etc. Now is it around? Yes it is. Is it as prevalent as it used to be? No way, not even close.
Racism exists everywhere–even in your little part of heaven west of Pittsburgh. It is still probably more prevalent in the South than elsewhere because it was really engrained here for a long time. But it is way better than it used to be here and it gets better every year. Most of the improvement has come about since the desegregation of the schools in the 50s-70s.
Slamming a whole region because of the lunacy and insensitivity of a tiny few like some here do is fucking stupid and makes you no better than those you claim to detest.
WyldPirate
@Barry:
Yeah, that would have really helped reform the Union if all of the Confederate generals had been rounded up, been imprisoned or put to death.
Don’t you think Reconstruction and the ensuing 100+ years of racial repression were bad enough? Goddamn, the hate has been harbored ever since by some if you look at the comments from some people.
WyldPirate
@Scamp Dog:
I was thinking more of the fact that some of the non-POWs (as that is what they were because the Allies used semantics so they could get away with not having to give them their rights under the Geneva Convention) were traded off to the French as “slave laborers” and the fact that there were attempts to deny even the civilian population from entering the camps.
And lest we run away from this little thread thinking that poor treatment of blacks during the civil war era was confined to the South, consider the NewYork Draft Riots of 1863. Here is a little excerpt from the Wiki link:
Racial hatred never has been confined to the southern US. When Boston was forced to desegregate their schools in the 70s, there was quite a bit of “hatin’ going on on the news every night. I remember watching it on the tube. Of course, many of the wqhites in Boston did what they did in the South, sent their kids to private schools so they didn’t have to associate with the blacks.
Warren Terra
Not only do I support these license plates, I think purchasers should get an extra one and be encouraged to wear it proudly on their chests. It’s always good to have the asshole bigots self-identify.
New Yorker
If I want to honor a terrorist war criminal, I’ll put Chemical Ali on my car, thank you very much.
I wonder what the reaction of these knuckledraggers would be if you proposed a license plate honoring James Longstreet? You see, a lot of these people consider him a traitor to the South for becoming a Republican after the war and advocating for equal rights for blacks (he also converted to Catholicism, which probably didn’t help either).
shortstop
@WyldPirate:
For Christ’s sake, even you aren’t this stupid. We’re making jokes in poor taste on a blog for the purpose of mocking how fucking out there the Sons of Confederate Veterans are. I know the distinction may be hard for you to grasp, but no one is seriously suggesting this stuff and none of us is going to propose that any of this be made official and given the imprimatur of the state. (Spare us the tearful “But you’re just as hateful! So you’re morally just the same!” response that I’m sure will be your best parry to this.)
Every time you go off half-cocked you spend an entire thread flailing around looking for increasingly lame justifications for your original dumbass remark and getting yourself worked up into a frenzy of manufactured indignation along the way. You never, ever learn. But maybe you’ll get different results the 1001st time.
ETA: OMG, now the “but the North is racist too!” line of argument. Have you missed any popular talking point of actual neo-Confederates, or do you have a couple more left to pull out? Find some dignity and fall back a la Joe Johnston.
WyldPirate
@shortstop:
No, you simply have reading comprehension problems you stupid fuckwit.
What I’m saying is that you and your ilk that keep bringing this shit up over and over–think front pager Dennis Green–look as goddamned stupid as the tiny redneck minority in the South that push for shit like this liscence plate.
You have any problem understanding that, you stupid bitch?
TOP123
I think the very issue is that it’s to be a license plate, not a bumper sticker.
As far as flags and bumper stickers go, I’ve found that the Battle Flag is very uncommon, but not rare, in Atlanta metro, trends toward uncommon by Forsyth, and is a common sight past Macon. Down in South GA, you’ll certainly see it flying next to the US and state flag, and forget it in a country bar. I’ve seen it a fair bit in parts of the Carolinas and VA, too, but have only visited those states, not lived there, and don’t feel qualified to comment.
That said, it’s the ones who have that flag on their car in Vermont or Massachusetts who really cause me to wonder.
shortstop
Wyld, look at your first post here, #6. Then look at your second, #18. Trace the line you took to get from those to #88. Notice the point at which you went off the rails and then, instead of choosing to find your way back, continued barreling insanely farther and farther into the wilderness.
It speaks for itself to anyone reading it.
cmorenc
@Brachiator:
Actually, most of them nowdays would likely welcome a black family into a predominately white suburban neighborhood, because (unlike 40 years ago) they will assume by the fact that this family chose and was able to do so that they are part of “deserving” black folks who have earned their way out to the burns and are unlike the mass of “undeserving” hip-hop marginal black folks whose underachieving, disruptive children are being bused into their suburban schools. Big proviso: this is true SO LONG AS there aren’t very many of them in their neighborhood. Because one or even a small handful in the midst of a still overwhelmingly WASP suburban neighborhood == painless opportunity for these WASPS to prove to themselves and others (as a talking point) that they aren’t racists, and that their resentments against the masses of blacks in poorer, predominately black neighborhoods isn’t based on racism. There’s not that much required of these WASPS to take advantage of this besides saying a few friendly words out by the mailbox or on walks around the neighborhood as they pass by. But let the neighborhood begin to be over about 10% black, and boy howdy…maybe it’s time to think about whether the neighborhood’s a-changing downhill.
Stillwater
@shortstop: You’re right about the evolution of all this. When WyldP responded to my ‘economic disadvantage’ comment just above midway of the thread and clearly shifted the goal-posts, I was gonna post this comment (it was still in the box when I got back to this thread):
I didn’t cuz I didn’t want to stoke the embers. But look, Wyld, if you don’t understand that subtle distinctions about this wartime general’s talents and attributes suffice to make honoring him okey-dokey, you gotta spend a little more time thinking, and less reacting.
Brachiator
@cmorenc: RE: Of course, these supposedly civil white people would never allow a black person to be a next-door neighbor.
I’m not too sure about this. I’m still seeing a lot of residential segregation, both in the South and elsewhere, sadly. But I see your point.
Nicole
@freelancer: I read the article you linked to and I think the “Blame It On Mississippi” section was actually about the… what would you call it, irony? … that so many civil rights movies have whites for most of the lead characters. It wasn’t defending Mississippi at all; just pointing out civil rights films that took place in Mississippi and how most of them starred white actors.
Good article, actually, with some terrific films listed. Thanks for linking it!
Jeanne ringland
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: Me too, and my ancestors who did serve were conscripted; the family story is that most of the brothers in that family managed to get away and join the US Army, the other two brothers didn’t leave early enough.
In the meantime their sisters were busy supporting the Union cause, hiding and tending to wounded Union soldiers and helping them cross the line to get back to the North.
The vast majority of my family sided with the North.
Jeanne ringland
@WyldPirate:”….In the last year, I can’t even recall the last time I saw a goddamned Confederate flag. I can’t recall the last time I saw one of the idiotic shirts, bumper stickers or other crap saying the “South will rise again”, etc. Now is it around? Yes it is. Is it as prevalent as it used to be? No way, not even close….”
I think a lot of it moved to Northern California, and/or points East of I-5 .
DougW
I’ve recently traveled much of the south. I say that they deserve the misery they have sown. I haven’t been in a more depressed area of the world, and every time politicians from the area open their mouth’s, I’m closer to understanding why this region is in such deep depression…
And yet, I have had great experiences with virtually everyone I interacted with while I was down there. I’m not sure just what the issues are, and I’m only sure that they are more complicated than the media usually reports…
Wile E. Quixote
@WyldPirate:
That “tiny redneck minority” which happens to include the governors of Tennessee and Texas talking about secession, the president of the Senate in South Carolina, who likes dressing up as a Confederate soldier with a pair of slaves, the governor of Mississippi, who doesn’t think that the Civil War was about slavery and doesn’t see what the problems were during the Civil Rights era would shut the fuck up and stop commemorating a war that was fought so that white southerners could continue the evil institution of slavery then maybe we’d stop bringing this up. If these fuckers want to bring up their shameful heritage then I for one am going to jam it right down their fucking throats every chance that I can get.
Why don’t you fuck off over to RedState? I’m sure that your Obama bashing and apologias for white racism will go over real big over there, You’re just the kind of fat, ignorant, lazy, self-pitying dipshit that they’re looking for over there and I’m sure that you’ll be BFF with Erick Erickson in no time.
Wile E. Quixote
@WyldPirate:
Let me guess, you’re one of those guys who says “What’s the deal with you Jews and the Holocaust, it’s ancient history. Get over it already and move on.”
russell
The problem with Reconstruction is that it ended before the job was done. Hence, 100+ years of racial repression.
Quite right. I live near Boston, it’s still intensely racially segregated. I’d say Boston is one of the more racist cities in the country.
And when the people of Boston decide to commemorate Louise Day Hicks with a vanity license plate, I’d say your argument here has some relevance to this thread.
Paul in KY
@Southern Beale: Jesus, that is an ugly statue. I don’t think old Nathan himself would like it.
I think the nut who put it up got screwed by the ‘sculpter’ LOL!
Paul in KY
@PTirebiter: Who exactly is debating whether or not Fort Pillow was a massacre?
Paul in KY
@WyldPirate: I live in Kentucky & I see them all the time. Usually a window sticker in a pickup or a vanity plate.
Paul in KY
@WyldPirate: It would have dampened their veneration (IMO) if they’d been marched to the gallows. Maybe not all of them, but Jeff Davis, Forrest, Calhoun, a few others.