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You are here: Home / Open Thread

Open Thread

by John Cole|  February 10, 201111:49 am| 143 Comments

This post is in: Blogospheric Navel-Gazing, Rumormongering

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I’m beginning to wonder if there is something very seriously wrong with Sullivan. Seems like he has been out sick for a month, doesn’t it? Anyone know of any updates from his minions that I may have missed?

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Previous Post: « What Are They Thinking?
Next Post: Just Go To The Emergency Room »

Reader Interactions

143Comments

  1. 1.

    Comrade Jake

    February 10, 2011 at 11:52 am

    I’ve had the same concerns, but Sully’s pulled this sort of thing before, no?

  2. 2.

    Dexter

    February 10, 2011 at 11:52 am

    MSM is speculating that Mubarak is stepping down tonight.

    Looks like Jon Kyl is retiring too. May be that nutty McCain primary opponent will get another chance to get into the senate.

  3. 3.

    fasteddie9318

    February 10, 2011 at 11:53 am

    Is it irresponsible to speculate? It is irresponsible not to.

    Open the floodgates!

  4. 4.

    Poopyman

    February 10, 2011 at 11:53 am

    Not related to Sully, but since it’s an Open Thread:
    Looks like the shit’s starting to go down in Egypt.

    Specifically (the latest):

    6:44pm: Al Jazeera’s Sherine Tadros reports the military presence in downtown Cairo has increased in recent hours, with greater numbers of tanks making a highly visible presence.

    6:37pm: White House says situation in Egypt is ‘fluid’.

    6:36pm: State TV reports Mubarak will address the country tonight.

    Prior to that, Mubarak and Army COS reportedly headed for Sharmel–Sheikh for ????

  5. 5.

    Captain Haddock

    February 10, 2011 at 11:54 am

    He said bronchitis I think – given his overall condition bronchitis could be rather serious and/or hard to get over.

    I am not a huge fan of his, but still hope he is just slacking somewhere, in fine health.

  6. 6.

    Jim, Once

    February 10, 2011 at 11:54 am

    @Dexter:
    Woohoo! (To both pieces of news.)

  7. 7.

    fasteddie9318

    February 10, 2011 at 11:55 am

    @Dexter:

    May be that nutty McCain primary opponent will get another chance to get into the senate.

    Maybe Napolitano will run, since whatever deal Obama cut with McCain about her no longer applies she’ll have been in the cabinet for nearly a full term by then.

  8. 8.

    Bob

    February 10, 2011 at 11:55 am

    He posted a comment this past Monday, the 7th. Said doing better but doctors still ordering him to stay home and his husband, Aaron?, has put his foot down and also ordered him to stay away from the blog.

  9. 9.

    jaleh

    February 10, 2011 at 11:56 am

    Sullivan wrote a few days ago that he was sick. I couldn’t find the post prior to that one so I don’t know any more than what I read, but he is definitely sick.

  10. 10.

    Dan

    February 10, 2011 at 11:56 am

    Didn’t realize how good he was until I saw 5 people unable to keep up the quality he does on his own.

  11. 11.

    Jim, Once

    February 10, 2011 at 11:57 am

    Re Sullivan: I read a posting by him just a few days ago for his absences, said his HIV was causing problems. Please don’t ask me to find it …

  12. 12.

    Ryan S

    February 10, 2011 at 11:59 am

    Maybe we should start a conspiracy theory: Maybe BoA gave him Dengue.

  13. 13.

    RossInDetroit

    February 10, 2011 at 12:00 pm

    Pneumonia has been going around. I can’t recall any year when so many otherwise healthy people that I know ended up in the hospital. It starts with bronchitis. Just speculating.

  14. 14.

    Daniel

    February 10, 2011 at 12:00 pm

    Sully posted this a week ago:

    The initial respiratory infection and then asthma attacks were so severe my lungs are still in recovery. Every day a little more oxygen but the progress is frustratingly slow. My docs insist on bed rest until my lungs are back to full strength. I hope this week. People with respiratory illness (this is not HIV related) will know the drill, and I’ve been a chronic asthmatic since I was a toddler. Every now and again, a nor-easter of viral infection, bacteral infection, athma attack and, yes, refusing to stop work earlier lays you low. So I’m taking my doctor’s advice and will be back as soon as I can. With bells on.

    — Andrew

    http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2011/01/physic.html

  15. 15.

    fasteddie9318

    February 10, 2011 at 12:00 pm

    @Poopyman:

    Prior to that, Mubarak and Army COS reportedly headed for Sharmel—Sheikh for ????

    Agree that this is an odd thing to do in the middle of a revolution, but Mubarak has been basically living at Sharm el-Sheikh for some time now, presumably for health reasons (there have been rumors going back at least a year that he’s dying of pancreatic cancer, plus he’s just plain old).

  16. 16.

    jaleh

    February 10, 2011 at 12:00 pm

    I found this post:

    http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2011/02/not-dead-.html

    He has had HIV for 17 years…

  17. 17.

    p.a.

    February 10, 2011 at 12:03 pm

    He’s in the dumps because the great (in his eyes) Tory/LibDem austerity plan for Great Britain is turning into (surprise, surprise) a shit sandwich. His advice to America: ‘wash. rinse. repeat.’

    not to be too niggardly, I hope his absence is due to allowing for a full recovery, and not continuing health issues.

  18. 18.

    Jim C.

    February 10, 2011 at 12:03 pm

    I have been wondering the same thing for a while now…

  19. 19.

    piratedan

    February 10, 2011 at 12:05 pm

    well the Kyl senate seat is the one that Giffords had been targeting as well. The current political climate in AZ makes it difficult for Janet to run (imho) as the Republicans will be sure to lay the economic disaster that is the current state of affairs at her feet in a particularly ugly campaign. If Giffords continues her astounding recovery, she could run for it and the well heeled attack dogs would have to back off and make it a civil campaign against someone like Flake, Pearce, Brewer, Quayle or Arpaio. I’d rate her chances in that contest as excellent.

  20. 20.

    suzanne

    February 10, 2011 at 12:05 pm

    FUCK YEAH!!!

  21. 21.

    geg6

    February 10, 2011 at 12:06 pm

    He said he has bronchitis, I believe, and, with an underlying asthma condition and his HIV positive status, I’m guessing it will take him a while to get over it.

    That said, I never thought I’d say this, because Andrew makes me want to throttle him sometimes, but I miss him. Especially since it’s all his hamsters plus Friedersdorf spewing unintelligently all day long. Say what you will about Andrew, but he is at least intelligent. Overly emotional and too tied to some unrealistic and fantastic idea of what conservatism is, but intelligent nonetheless.

  22. 22.

    KG

    February 10, 2011 at 12:07 pm

    It’s his lungs, not HIV related, but he’s also asthmatic. His latest posts have already been linked to. But yeah, the longer it goes, the more concern I have.

  23. 23.

    Loneoak

    February 10, 2011 at 12:08 pm

    He’s probably reading Burke on some perfect Virgin Islands beach.

    Gross.

  24. 24.

    Jim, Once

    February 10, 2011 at 12:10 pm

    @geg6:

    He said he has bronchitis, I believe, and, with an underlying asthma condition and his HIV positive status, I’m guessing it will take him a while to get over it.

    Yup, that’s the one I (mis)read.

  25. 25.

    You Don't Say

    February 10, 2011 at 12:12 pm

    Glad you brought it up. Thought I was the only one wondering about him. Hope he’s on the mend soon.

  26. 26.

    stuckinred

    February 10, 2011 at 12:13 pm

    Posted By – The Associated Press

    Last Updated On: 2/10/2011 11:54:44 AM

    JACKSON, Miss. (AP) — A fight is brewing in Mississippi over a proposal to issue specialty license plates honoring Confederate Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest, who was an early leader of the Ku Klux Klan.

    The Mississippi Division of Sons of Confederate Veterans wants to sponsor a series of state-issued license plates to mark the 150th anniversary of the Civil War, which it calls the “War Between the States.” The group proposes a different design each year between now and 2015, with Forrest slated for 2014.

  27. 27.

    Scamp Dog

    February 10, 2011 at 12:19 pm

    @KG: Well, a compromised immune system messes with everything, so HIV is always part of the issue with anything that goes wrong.

    I’m with several other commentators: he’s often annoying or enraging, but I still want to see him back in good heath. Just with a new set of opinions. :)

  28. 28.

    Sly

    February 10, 2011 at 12:19 pm

    @stuckinred:
    This response, quoted in this article, is priceless:

    “Seriously?” state NAACP president Derrick Johnson said when he was told about the Forrest plate. “Wow.”

    It’s so fucked up that it is more shocking than it is offensive.

  29. 29.

    Parallel 5ths (Jewish Steel)

    February 10, 2011 at 12:23 pm

    @stuckinred

    Our license plates say Land of Lincoln, so maybe we’d better not play the South after all.

    We’d love to play Athens, but the 40 Watt Club is too big timey for us. Maybe we can play your basement?

  30. 30.

    fasteddie9318

    February 10, 2011 at 12:24 pm

    Compromise for Mississippians: you can have a license plate that pays tribute to Forrest, but if your car gets vandalized with such a plate on it, you’re on your own. Fair deal?

  31. 31.

    cckids

    February 10, 2011 at 12:24 pm

    @Dexter: Well, Sarah Palin has bought a house in AZ. Let the insanity commence!

  32. 32.

    Nicole

    February 10, 2011 at 12:26 pm

    I can’t stand reading him anymore, but I hope he gets well soon. Feel better, Sully! You pompous ass, you.

  33. 33.

    kindness

    February 10, 2011 at 12:27 pm

    Sully was mentioned by Conner late last week. Said it was bronchitis but getting better. The guy is immune suppressed so it may take him longer to get back than the rest of us.

    May the FSM give him strength.

  34. 34.

    Ahasuerus

    February 10, 2011 at 12:27 pm

    Since this is an open thread, here’s a Media Matters report that you can put into the “We suspected as much” category. It describes an interview with a former Fox News employee. Money quote:

    “It is their M.O. to undermine the administration and to undermine Democrats,” says the source. “They’re a propaganda outfit but they call themselves news.”

    Color me shocked. Still, it’s nice to see this coming from an ostensibly knowledgeable source, instead of a bunch of whiny leftist America-hating soshulist bloggers and their brainless followers. Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to go to the mailbox to get my check from the SorosGoreTides Conspiracy Foundation and then I’m off for a full day of teaching my Undermining American Exceptionalism seminars.

  35. 35.

    cckids

    February 10, 2011 at 12:27 pm

    @Sly: Doesn’t it seem that we’re to the point that “Seriously?” is a regular response to whatever bizarre thing the NeoConfederates come up with? What else can you say?

  36. 36.

    Poopyman

    February 10, 2011 at 12:27 pm

    @stuckinred: And a Happy Black History Month to you, too!

  37. 37.

    fasteddie9318

    February 10, 2011 at 12:27 pm

    This situation in Egypt is starting to look suspiciously more like a military coup than a successful civil/democratic revolution. On the other hand, the military has basically been running the country since Nasser, so whether they can stage a coup against themselves that’s anything more than a charade is anybody’s guess.

  38. 38.

    KG

    February 10, 2011 at 12:28 pm

    @Scamp Dog: yeah, that’s true, I was just going on what he was saying in his posts.

  39. 39.

    LGRooney

    February 10, 2011 at 12:29 pm

    @Parallel 5ths (Jewish Steel): Time to break out the Sherman poster again, “Don’t Make Me Come Back.” (or something along those lines)

  40. 40.

    BR

    February 10, 2011 at 12:30 pm

    @Sly:

    Reminds me of Dave Chappelle:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCbD9o948ec

  41. 41.

    Corner Stone

    February 10, 2011 at 12:30 pm

    @suzanne: Having Kay Bailey and Big John Cornyn as my Senators, I feel your elation at not seeing Kyl’s stupid fucking Babylon 5 G’Kar face on TV any longer.
    BUT. What kind of fresh faced wacko do you think will replace him for the next 24 years?

  42. 42.

    cleek

    February 10, 2011 at 12:31 pm

    @geg6:
    Friedersdorf is just baffling.

    i just about broke my skull with the facepalm this one brought on.

  43. 43.

    Sockpuppet

    February 10, 2011 at 12:33 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    What kind of fresh faced wacko do you think will replace him for the next 24 years?

    Who knows, we might just see Senator Gabrielle Giffords instead?

  44. 44.

    matoko_chan

    February 10, 2011 at 12:37 pm

    who cares?
    Sully is just another conservative shill.
    theres a million of them.
    hes just more stealthy than the rest…..fooled me for while even.

    @Loneoak: his dissertation was on Oakeshott, not Burke.
    a different Dead-White-Guy Phailosopher.

  45. 45.

    trollhattan

    February 10, 2011 at 12:38 pm

    @cckids:

    Dear lord, that’s a frightening and–given it’s Arizona–very real possibility. Sarah(R) could be preznit like I could be an NBA center, but a senator from an insane state? Youbetcha!

    re. Sully. Speaking of hot, dry places, he needs to move to one. For somebody with lifelong breathing issues, living in “Ptown” and wherever the hell else he lives the rest of the year cannot be helping.

  46. 46.

    TooManyJens

    February 10, 2011 at 12:38 pm

    @Ahasuerus: None of that is surprising, sadly. Of course, it won’t matter; the wingnuts will dismiss it as a disgruntled former employee (and I can’t even blame people for not trusting unnamed sources these days). I just want to know how — and why — Shep Smith stays on the air at FOX.

  47. 47.

    Corner Stone

    February 10, 2011 at 12:39 pm

    @Sockpuppet: Hmmm. Unlikely.
    If I had to guess I’d go with the Howard the Duck lookalike that just lost to McCain.

  48. 48.

    Bob

    February 10, 2011 at 12:39 pm

    @suzanne: We’ll see worse than Kyle. Oh, maybe the Governor will run and there is always J.D. Hayworth. E.D. can write a post on AZ politics and give us the poop.

  49. 49.

    Sly

    February 10, 2011 at 12:39 pm

    @BR:
    I thought of the same bit, but didn’t no where to look for it.

  50. 50.

    Carnacki

    February 10, 2011 at 12:40 pm

    Meanwhile across the Potomac in Maryland, Republican county commissioners say women should just stay home and raise babies as they eliminate all HeadStart funding.

  51. 51.

    Sentient Puddle

    February 10, 2011 at 12:40 pm

    @Corner Stone: Jeff Flake. That’s the Republican to put money on right now.

  52. 52.

    Another Commenter at Balloon Juice (fka Bella Q)

    February 10, 2011 at 12:41 pm

    @Jim, Once: I thought Sully specifically said it was *not* HIV-related. But, I admit that it was a cursory skim of the post. He annoys the snot out of me, but does have some occasionally good stuff. I don’t wish him ill, and hope it’s the cabinet member who runs in AZ.

  53. 53.

    Chinn Romney

    February 10, 2011 at 12:42 pm

    I’d like to stand and applaud our Intelligence Services for once again predicting, well in advance, the unrest in Tunisia and Egypt. Clearly the unknown billions we pour into these agencies is money well spent. Their biggest coup, of course, remains their dead-on calls regarding the fall of the Berlin Wall and Soviet Empire. Or is it all their fine work in Central and South America, building US friendly regimes.

    In any case, kudos Spooks. Clap, clap. Clap.

  54. 54.

    Ahasuerus

    February 10, 2011 at 12:43 pm

    @Corner Stone: HEY! DON’T YOU DARE INSULT G’KAR, YOU FUCKING MORON, OR YOU’LL GET WHAT THE MARKABS GOT!

    But seriously; you think Kyl looks like Andreas Katsulas? I just did a GIS for his picture and I don’t see it.

    ETA: Hmmm, I had appended several wingnut-compatible exclamation points, numeral ones, and the word ELEVENTY to my first sentence above, and none of them made it through the initial posting. FYWP. I blame Obama.

  55. 55.

    Corner Stone

    February 10, 2011 at 12:46 pm

    @Ahasuerus: That’s because I didn’t say Andreas.
    I said G’Kar

  56. 56.

    matoko_chan

    February 10, 2011 at 12:47 pm

    @cleek: oh yeah. Conservatism– where even the smart people are retards.
    Look where i give eugene and the lawyer-cudlips some of the hell i usually reserve for juicer-cudlips.
    scroll down to matoko says:

    Vlad Konings– “You will speak freely, worship (or not) as you wish, publish what you want, and vote your conscience, or I will behead you!”
    Yeah, I can kind of see the problem.

    __

    no, you don’t understand at all. criticizing Islam, blaspheming against Islam, all the same as proselytizing. al-Islam evolved from christianity and judaism, and evolved specifically to be immune to christian proselytization, which was the dominant CSS (culturally stable strategy) at the time, and a very productive strategy for increasing reps.
    it is simply not possible to create free speech rule of law in islamic majority nations.
    because of the consent of the governed.
    Iraq is 97% muslim, egypt is 90% muslim, KSA is 100% muslim, Pakistan is 99% muslim, A-stan is 99% muslim, Indonesia is 95% muslim..
    islamic democracy may be illiberal compared with judeochristian democracy, but it is the only workable paradigm for democratizing majority muslim states.
    __
    Try this thought experiment, eugene.
    Forbidding muslims to resist proselytizing by forcing freedom of speech is the exact same thing as forbidding christians from proselytizing.
    See?
    It cant be done.
    February 9, 2011, 5:39 pm

    my favorite.

    and you all should know, that building churches has always been considered proselytizing, so it is unsurprising that churches get burned or are forbidden.
    this is not unique to al-Islam.
    for example, in America, 70% of the citizens were against the construction of the “terror” mosque, but unable to prevent it because of freedom of speech law.
    In KSM for example holding a church service outside of an approved facility is illegal proselytization. 300 filipino guest workers were recently arrested for holding mass in the hotel they worked at.
    __
    America is only 70% christian….imagine trying to enforce an anti-proselytization law here.
    In EGT, proselytization is the flip of defense against proselytization.
    They are isomorph CSSs, strat/counter-strat in the evolutionary theory of games playbook.

  57. 57.

    Gin & Tonic

    February 10, 2011 at 12:47 pm

    @Carnacki: I love how the guy who said “I never relied on anyone else to guarantee the education of my kids” also said his four kids all graduated from the local public school system. Cognitive dissonance much?

  58. 58.

    nestor

    February 10, 2011 at 12:48 pm

    It’s not my turn to watch Sully, but I did denounce Stalin this morning.

    Feelsgoodman.

  59. 59.

    suzanne

    February 10, 2011 at 12:49 pm

    @Corner Stone: Some of the people I know from the state Democratic Party had mentioned Gabby and/or Janet in the past, but with Gabby’s injury and Janet in the Cabinet, I don’t know how likely that is anymore. I adore Raul Grijalva, but don’t see him winning statewide. I also like Terry Goddard and Harry Mitchell, but those two had some pretty definitive losses last year, so I don’t know how viable they would be. I really hope that they don’t run Pederson again—he’s okay, but not inspiring, and Kyl beat him pretty handily last time. And there’s a state Senator, Kyrsten Sinema, who I think is just the GREATEST, and she got some really positive national press recently. But I think she’s a bit young yet.

    On the Republican side, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Hayworth make another go at it. Russell Pearce might want to go for it. I think Brewer is probably too old and as the economy improves here, the Mexican Derangement Syndrome is gonna wear off, so I don’t think she’ll be that appealing. Trent Franks might want to take the step up. Should be interesting.

  60. 60.

    Corner Stone

    February 10, 2011 at 12:49 pm

    @Corner Stone: Tell me I’m wrong.

  61. 61.

    Ahasuerus

    February 10, 2011 at 12:49 pm

    @Corner Stone: Yeah, I know. But even in the Narn makeup, or as Tomalok from ST:TNG, I still don’t see the resemblance. Maybe it’s the chin? Or is it the voice? I don’t know; I’ve never heard Kyl speak.

  62. 62.

    Violet

    February 10, 2011 at 12:51 pm

    I think we’ll be seeing Senator Sarah Palin® R-Arizona. A year or so getting “foreign policy credentials” and then a run for President.

  63. 63.

    Bob

    February 10, 2011 at 12:53 pm

    @Violet: I was thinking Sharron Angle might move south.

  64. 64.

    Ahasuerus

    February 10, 2011 at 12:53 pm

    @Corner Stone: Ouch. OK, now I see where you’re coming from.

  65. 65.

    suzanne

    February 10, 2011 at 12:55 pm

    @Violet: Honestly, I don’t really know how well Palin would go over carpetbagging here. The insanity of the last year or so aside, this place really is more politically complex than it appears.

  66. 66.

    matoko_chan

    February 10, 2011 at 12:56 pm

    alsotoo.
    Christians believe their faith commands them to proselytize. Muslims believe their faith commands them to resist proselytization.
    Defense against proselytization is the most successful CSS (culturally stable strategy–from Maynard-Smith, Evolution and the Theory of Games) on the planet right now.
    We are all People of the Book. Jews and christians could be citizens of the caliphate…but they could not proselytize on pain of death. Sharia law has a large anti-proselytization component. no outmarriage for muslimahs, death to apostates, etc.
    muslims hate missionaries, especially. that is why our missionaries with guns failed so epically in Iraq and A-stan.
    ;)
    When muslims are democratically empowered to vote, they vote for more Islam, not less, and never for westernstyle/judeochristian democracy. Free speech is a problem, because proselytizing is against shariah law. i guess you are calling it blasphemy. samesame.
    You simply cannot force free speech in islamic nations, because defense against proselytization IS PART OF THEIR FUCKING RELIGION.

  67. 67.

    Lysana

    February 10, 2011 at 1:01 pm

    @stuckinred: I say we do General Sherman plates and convoy to Biloxi.

  68. 68.

    Violet

    February 10, 2011 at 1:04 pm

    @suzanne:
    I guess it depends who gets out and votes. She very likely could have won in this last election. In a Presidential election year, maybe not.

  69. 69.

    Liz

    February 10, 2011 at 1:04 pm

    @geg6:

    couldn’t agree more. I can’t stand when he’s not there. I can barely read it.

  70. 70.

    suzanne

    February 10, 2011 at 1:10 pm

    @matoko_chan: Can you go back to ranting about memetic selection for IQ now? Or, even better, get yourself a new schtick? This one’s getting really fucking old.

    I should invent a matoko_chan random comment generator. I wonder if we’d be able to tell her real comments from the generated ones.

  71. 71.

    fasteddie9318

    February 10, 2011 at 1:11 pm

    Is anybody else having a problem getting the pie filter to work?

  72. 72.

    GordonGuano

    February 10, 2011 at 1:11 pm

    I bet Sully got botulism, aka bad meat in the can.

  73. 73.

    GordonGuano

    February 10, 2011 at 1:12 pm

    My money is on botulism, aka bad meat in the can.

  74. 74.

    cleek

    February 10, 2011 at 1:13 pm

    @fasteddie9318:
    it’s working for me!

  75. 75.

    Corner Stone

    February 10, 2011 at 1:14 pm

    @GordonGuano: Oh wow.
    I am really mirthful now, thank you.

  76. 76.

    You Don't Say

    February 10, 2011 at 1:15 pm

    @cckids: I thought Bristol bought the house. Sarah too?

  77. 77.

    Woodrowfan

    February 10, 2011 at 1:16 pm

    I live in Virginia but I’d love some General George Thomas pl8ts! (he was a Virginian who stayed loyal to the Union)

  78. 78.

    trollhattan

    February 10, 2011 at 1:18 pm

    @Another Commenter at Balloon Juice (fka Bella Q):

    I too saw a post saying just that, that it’s a lifelong condition he’s battling and not a consequence of HIV. Of course having HIV doesn’t leave him in the best condition to fight off a flareup, of which this must be a doozy.

  79. 79.

    Kathryn

    February 10, 2011 at 1:24 pm

    @matoko_chan: wow, that is wrong on so many levels. And wouldn’t “forcing free speech” rank as an oxymoron (let alone just again, wrong)? Or something? Is this irony and I’m just missing it?

  80. 80.

    Violet

    February 10, 2011 at 1:24 pm

    @You Don’t Say:

    I thought Bristol bought the house. Sarah too?

    Sarah is rumored to have bought a mansion in Scottsdale.

  81. 81.

    Paul in KY

    February 10, 2011 at 1:27 pm

    @piratedan: Lets let the Congresswoman fully recover from being shot in the head before we send her out to win a Senate seat.

  82. 82.

    Paul in KY

    February 10, 2011 at 1:33 pm

    @matoko_chan: Theoretically, can a Muslim nation have a ‘free political speech’ right that would explicitly only apply to ‘non religious’ speech?

  83. 83.

    matoko_chan

    February 10, 2011 at 1:34 pm

    @Kathryn: nope. its right.
    free speech is incompatible with shariah, because defense against proselytization IS PART OF ISLAM.
    trying to tell muslims that they are not allowed to resist proselytization is the exact equivalent of trying to tell christians they cannot proselytize.
    it is part of their religion.
    that is why Indonesian “democracy” has anti-blasphemy laws. Indonesia is 95% muslim.
    it simply cannot be done.

  84. 84.

    nestor

    February 10, 2011 at 1:37 pm

    @matoko_chan:

    We are all People of the Book

    Yeah, but some of us have moved beyond Snow Crash into the Diamond Age.

  85. 85.

    fasteddie9318

    February 10, 2011 at 1:40 pm

    @matoko_chan:
    All monotheistic faiths hold that their adherents must resist proselytism, hence the penalties for apostasy. If your point is that the Muslim world still has some catching up to do to get to join the 21st century, consider it made.

  86. 86.

    matoko_chan

    February 10, 2011 at 1:43 pm

    @Paul in KY: there is no non-religious political speech. democracy is the consent of the governed.
    Sadly, America attempted an impossible task…..to implant/stand up judeochristian/westernstyle democracy in majority muslim nations.

    This is not to say that these Afghans have a problem with representative government-they’d just prefer to do it on their own terms. Even as people expressed deep concern over the encroachment of western-style “freedom” on Afghanistan’s moral and social landscape, they expressed strong support for the kind of “freedom” that allows them to elect their rulers and hold them to account. Many of our interviewees sought to reconcile this tension by arguing for a democracy placed within an “Islamic framework”-one that protects their strongly-held values and ideals from erosion. While the boundaries of this framework fell in different places for different people, it emerged repeatedly as a reference point for judging the successes or failures of Afghanistan’s democratization process as a whole.

    Free speech means proselytization to muslims, and proselytization is against islamic law.
    Imposing free speech would mean outlawing Islam.
    Do you think that can happen?

  87. 87.

    matoko_chan

    February 10, 2011 at 1:44 pm

    @nestor: wallah, so dated. my current favorite is Thirteen/Black Man. Consider the midterm elections. we are living in Distributed Jesusland

  88. 88.

    Kathryn

    February 10, 2011 at 1:45 pm

    @matoko_chan: First, free speech is incompatible with authoritarian systems. Western, eastern, doesn’t matter.

    Second, Canada, not known as a bastion of Islam, doesn’t allow hate speech (so free speech is limited, and not entirely “free”). What we know as first amendment rights in the US is highly unusual.

    All societies change. The Prophet said that the Umma is always right. Well, when the process comes from the ground up, and not the authoritarian top down, you get free speech. Anywhere. And in Egypt and Tunisia, however it plays out, the Umma has broken through and can be heard and that voice has a unity in it.

  89. 89.

    Paul in KY

    February 10, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    @matoko_chan: Can one differentiate between ‘forced proselythization’ and ‘proselythization’ (damn, that’s a hard word to spell)?

    I can myself. The forced variety being what the Crusaders did, Spanish Conquistadors, etc. The other variety being the doofus at your door with a copy of ‘The Watchtower’.

    I know there are many gradients betwen the two I mentioned, but why do Muslims seem so ‘scared’ of a person setting up a Lutheran church in Karachi (for instance)?

  90. 90.

    matoko_chan

    February 10, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    @fasteddie9318: Islamic defense against proselytization is the most successful CSS on the planet right naow.
    you badly want this not to be true…..why?
    Christians believe their faith commands them to proselytize. Muslims believe their faith commands them to resist proselytization.

    seems simple to assimilate to me.
    :)

  91. 91.

    Jamey: Bike Commuter of the Gods

    February 10, 2011 at 1:50 pm

    @Captain Haddock: Even when he’s on the job, he’s still slacking. So I prefer just to wish him good health.

  92. 92.

    Jamey: Bike Commuter of the Gods

    February 10, 2011 at 1:51 pm

    @Ryan S: Or McMegan’s calculator gave him Gastritis….

  93. 93.

    Kathryn

    February 10, 2011 at 1:51 pm

    @matoko_chan: Democracy, is rule by the demos, the people. The form that takes can, and should be, varied. Muslim democracy, particularly if the gates to ijtihad are reopened, would be quite a good cooperative version. Why are you so afraid?

  94. 94.

    Alwhite

    February 10, 2011 at 1:53 pm

    I have assumed there is something seriously wrong with the doof for quite some time . . . OH! you mean MEDICALLY wrong. Don’t know, don’t care.

  95. 95.

    matoko_chan

    February 10, 2011 at 1:54 pm

    @Kathryn: gawd, try to get your feeble cowbrain around this or ima drop a safe on you..
    84% of egyptians favor the death penalty for apostasy.
    Christians believe their faith commands them to proselytize. Muslims believe their faith commands them to resist proselytization.
    you cant change peoples religon.
    its impossible.

  96. 96.

    nestor

    February 10, 2011 at 1:56 pm

    @matoko_chan:

    That actually looks interesting.

  97. 97.

    matoko_chan

    February 10, 2011 at 2:01 pm

    @Paul in KY: al-Islam does not distinguish. proselytization is illegal under shariah law.
    look, i know what im talking about. i read all the historically fabulous debates between al-Ghazali and Ibn Tamaiyya. defense against proselytization is foundational to Islam.
    when you attack “anti-blasphemy” laws and church burning in islamic democracies like Indonesia, you are attacking peoples faith.
    you cannot succeed.
    islamic democracy may be illiberal compared with judeochristian democracy, but it is the only workable paradigm for democratizing majority muslim states.

  98. 98.

    Kathryn

    February 10, 2011 at 2:03 pm

    @matoko_chan: People’s religion changes all the time.

    Haven’t seen the Magisterium burn witches at the stake lately. Everything evolves, everything moves forward. And you are generalizing in order to feed your own fear.

  99. 99.

    matoko_chan

    February 10, 2011 at 2:03 pm

    @Kathryn: okfine.
    /drops black sun bouncer style safe on Kathryn’s comment feed.

  100. 100.

    And Another Thing...

    February 10, 2011 at 2:10 pm

    @Bob: Janet Napolitano

  101. 101.

    Paul in KY

    February 10, 2011 at 2:10 pm

    @matoko_chan: How does a non-Muslim practice their faith in a Muslim country & not be accused of proselytization?

    Very, very quietly?!

  102. 102.

    catclub

    February 10, 2011 at 2:10 pm

    @stuckinred: I am wondering when they will also propose tags honoring Benedict Arnold, Tokyo Rose, and Aldrich Ames

  103. 103.

    matoko_chan

    February 10, 2011 at 2:13 pm

    @Paul in KY: building churches is proselytizing. what dont you unnerstand here?
    criticizing Islam, blaspheming against Islam, preaching, building churches, all the same as proselytizing. al-Islam evolved from christianity and judaism, and evolved specifically to be immune to christian proselytization, which was the dominant CSS (culturally stable strategy) at the time, and a very productive strategy for increasing reps.
    In KSA for example holding a church service outside of an approved facility is illegal proselytization. 300 filipino guest workers were recently arrested for holding mass in the hotel they worked at.
    That is IN the KSA constitution….holding a christian service is ILLEGAL PROSELYTIZATION. it is spelled out in those exact words.
    egypt, turkey and iraq all incorpate ascendent shariah law clauses in their constitutions.
    lissen!
    it cant be done. we spent a shitload of blood and treasure in Iraq and COULDN”T DOOO EEET.
    get empirical man.

  104. 104.

    matoko_chan

    February 10, 2011 at 2:20 pm

    @Paul in KY: in KSA there are extent churches. there were churches and mosques in the capitals of the Caliphate.
    but street preaching was punishable by death, and building new churches and mosques was forbidden.
    in KSA rich visiting westerners have churches they can go to where their worship is legal. but filipino guest workers dont get invites.
    Paul…..its not rational….its PART OF THEIR FAITH.
    do you unnerstand religion a’tal?

  105. 105.

    fasteddie9318

    February 10, 2011 at 2:22 pm

    @matoko_chan:

    you badly want this not to be true…..why?

    What I want badly is for you to stop repeating it ad nauseum as though it represented some astonishing insight. Yes, Islam has a problem with apostasy, as do all other monotheistic faiths. Islamic law forbids proselytizing. This is incompatible with free speech. Democratic elections in Islamic countries tend to result in more Islamist parties winning power. OK, great. So what?

  106. 106.

    matoko_chan

    February 10, 2011 at 2:23 pm

    @suzanne: shape up lil momma or ur next.
    ;)

  107. 107.

    Paul in KY

    February 10, 2011 at 2:23 pm

    @matoko_chan: I wish you wouldn’t cut & paste your earlier diatribes in your response. It just seems…impersonal ;-).

    You didn’t answer my question really. I wasn’t asking how a non-Muslim church gets started in a Muslim country, just how an individual non-Muslim can go about practicing their faith.

    Is saying one believes in a different God than Allah ‘criticizing Islam’?

    Also, is the ‘dominant CSS’ you refer to above the Christian proselytizing or the Muslim anti-proselytizing?

  108. 108.

    matoko_chan

    February 10, 2011 at 2:26 pm

    @fasteddie9318: then we agree!
    great.
    Christians believe their faith commands them to proselytize. Muslims believe their faith commands them to resist proselytization.
    bi la kayfah
    :)

  109. 109.

    ET

    February 10, 2011 at 2:31 pm

    This was posted at 02:16 pm

    Virtually normal finally. Back Monday. Can’t believe I missed a revolution. — Andrew.

    so we will see him soon

  110. 110.

    matoko_chan

    February 10, 2011 at 2:35 pm

    @Paul in KY: at the dawn of Islam, christian proselytizing was the dominant CSS in the ME.
    well…you dont seem to unnerstand what i said, so i repeated it.
    shariah law provides for non-muslims to practice their faith legally, under islamic law, like my example of KSA constitutional law….. but they can be accused of proselytizing whether they did it or not, and then it goes to an islamic court. unjust accusation happens in america too.
    we are probably better at ascertaining actual guilt….better 99 guilty men go free, etc.
    read this about the Afghan view of democracy.

    A central theme that emerged from the responses was that many Afghans have negative associations attached to the word “democracy” itself. In the view of many Afghans we spoke to, the idea of democracy extends far beyond elections and parliamentary politics to encompass an entire package of Western liberal values, where freedom is equated with an absence of rules, immorality, and secularism. As one interviewee put it: “some people think that democracy is unlimited freedom, or doing anything you want to do, or wearing any type of clothing.” Or another: “for the youth in the cities, the word ‘democracy’ just means having a good life and watching TV.”

    by pushing westernstyle anti-islamic democracy the citizen paranoia reflex gets stepped up.
    that is how riots and church burning and Very Bad Things can happen.

  111. 111.

    matoko_chan

    February 10, 2011 at 2:39 pm

    @Paul in KY:

    Is saying one believes in a different God than Allah ‘criticizing Islam’?

    not being an islamic jurisprudent myself, i do not know.
    however, it certainly could be interpreted as blasphemy by an angry flash mob.

  112. 112.

    Paul in KY

    February 10, 2011 at 2:44 pm

    @matoko_chan: I did not see your KSA post under the one I responded to. probably wouldn’t have written response if I’d seen that.

    I do think you (or the Umma) take the ‘Christian commandment to proselytize’ a little too seriously, at least now. I know the Crusaders were as serious as a heart attack.

    Do the authorities make any allowance for the brand of Christianity? Like, I would much rather live next to a bunch of Unitarian-Universalists than a bunch of Free Will Baptists.

  113. 113.

    matoko_chan

    February 10, 2011 at 2:46 pm

    or opportunistically exploited by the anti-western GTFO Big White Christian Bwana contingent…..like say the FPI (islamic defenders front).

  114. 114.

    matoko_chan

    February 10, 2011 at 2:48 pm

    @Paul in KY: all the People of the Book worship the Divine Beloved.
    that is the view of the Ummah.
    ya haqq!

  115. 115.

    matoko_chan

    February 10, 2011 at 2:52 pm

    I do think you (or the Umma) take the ‘Christian commandment to proselytize’ a little too seriously,

    wallah……it is a RELIGIOUS BELIEF ENCODED AS LAW.
    western meddling and proselytizing makes EVERYTHING WORSE.
    what do you not understand about that?
    the fucking Bush Doctrine, COIN, and our MENA missionaries with guns create an OPENING for radical islamists to tell the ummah LOOK! they are coming to take our religion!
    and they are right. the GWOT was always a War on Islam.

  116. 116.

    Omnes Omnibus

    February 10, 2011 at 2:53 pm

    @matoko_chan: In that case, there should be no problem if a Christian were to worship in the ME. You say it might be a problem. Which is it?

  117. 117.

    celticdragonchick

    February 10, 2011 at 2:54 pm

    Hell just froze over and matoko_chan is making a cogent and interesting argument.

    I need a drink.

  118. 118.

    Paul in KY

    February 10, 2011 at 2:55 pm

    matoko, I tried your link in #112, but could not get it to come up. Hopefully others will have better luck.

    It is a real shame that when Christainity was overtly ascendent (middle ages to 19th century) that it was so cruel to those who practiced different religions.

    Certainly, those memories drive these ‘anti-proselytizing’ laws.

  119. 119.

    Omnes Omnibus

    February 10, 2011 at 2:56 pm

    @matoko_chan: Where is it a law that Christians must proselytize? Can you link to a statute that says it?

  120. 120.

    celticdragonchick

    February 10, 2011 at 2:58 pm

    @matoko_chan:

    the GWOT was always a War on Islam.

    Not really. it is wishful thinking in some corners both on the left and the right for different reasons…but the GWOT is more about preserving the status quo of the old Pan Arabists. Notice how quickly Gadaffi got rehabilitated? (By the by, when I finally finish my damned geology degree later this year, I can likely get a lovely opening job doing oil exploration in Libya…but I think I’ll pass on that one.)

  121. 121.

    Woodrow "asim" Jarvis Hill

    February 10, 2011 at 2:59 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: I can’t believe I’m doing this…but I think she means “law” to mean “religious law”, i.e. within the Bible. And there are rules in Christianity around spreading the Gospel.

  122. 122.

    celticdragonchick

    February 10, 2011 at 3:00 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Christians are commended to spread the word of Christ in the Great Commision:

    And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. (Matthew 28:18-20)

  123. 123.

    matoko_chan

    February 10, 2011 at 3:02 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: they can worship UNDER THE RULE OF LAW OF THEIR COUNTRY.
    shariah law.
    cut the sophist arguments or you get the safe treatment too.

    Where is it a law that Christians must proselytize?

    i was actually talking about muslim laws against proselytization.
    but i think “spread the good word” is the popular translation of the xian sacred book believed to command it.
    ax a christian if you dont believe meh.
    :)

  124. 124.

    nestor

    February 10, 2011 at 3:03 pm

    @celticdragonchick:

    She just needs to work on her people skills.

    To be fair, this probably isn’t the best venue for that.

  125. 125.

    Paul in KY

    February 10, 2011 at 3:04 pm

    @matoko_chan: Many Christian ‘beliefs’ are not quite as mandatory as you might assume. Like the Pirate Captain said in ‘Pirates of the Carribean’: ‘They’re more like guidelines, arrgh’.

    I do think the criminal fuckups in charge back when GWOT started let it be seen as a war on Islam (which was totally, completely stupid).

  126. 126.

    matoko_chan

    February 10, 2011 at 3:05 pm

    @celticdragonchick: ooooo ty, so much better than my response.
    but the difference, Omnes, is there is NO SECULAR LAW in islamic states, because the lawyers are the clergy and vice versa.
    Islamic jurisprudence is amazingly beautiful and still incorporates sapentia poetica.

  127. 127.

    Omnes Omnibus

    February 10, 2011 at 3:05 pm

    @celticdragonchick: I understand that part, but m_c seems to conflate religious law and secular law. Despite nominal Christian status, I think, as Paul in NY suggested above, that few Americans actually follow that religious commandment. Nor does our government do so.

  128. 128.

    Omnes Omnibus

    February 10, 2011 at 3:09 pm

    @matoko_chan: You did not make it clear that you were speaking of Islamic law.

  129. 129.

    matoko_chan

    February 10, 2011 at 3:10 pm

    @celticdragonchick: replacing islamic regimes with westernstyle/judeoxian democracy is war on islam.
    no bout a doubt it.
    :)
    and what is more important, it allowed the hirgabi like OBL to portray/reveal it as a war on islam to the Ummah.
    it was a war on islam.
    bi la kayfah

  130. 130.

    matoko_chan

    February 10, 2011 at 3:12 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: my bad.

  131. 131.

    matoko_chan

    February 10, 2011 at 3:14 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Nor does our government do so.

    wallah, dont be so thick. what do you not unnerstand about “standing up”/”implanting” westernstyle democracy?
    i just spent half a thread ‘splaning that westernstyle/judeoxian democracy and al-Islam are INCOMPATIBLE on free speech.
    Of course it was a war on Islam. America thinks Islam makes terrorists– but that is wrong.
    America built the reavers her bigself.

  132. 132.

    fasteddie9318

    February 10, 2011 at 3:15 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Where is it a law that Christians must proselytize?

    Although you’re right that there isn’t one, I can see the argument that a legal restriction on proselytism is incompatible with western-style free speech, regardless of whether or not that restriction is likely to be tested. On the other hand her notion of the inevitable incompatibility with Islam and secular law ignores the fact that there have been and continue to be secular political entities in the Islamic World, and that the secular West only got its shit together in terms of the relationship between religion, secular law, and representative government in the last couple of centuries (and may not yet have all its shit together, as the American political scene routinely demonstrates).

  133. 133.

    Omnes Omnibus

    February 10, 2011 at 3:21 pm

    @matoko_chan: The Bush/Cheney bunch were interested in profit and proving their manhood IMHO. I don’t think religion was a driving force. YMMV and probably does.

    @fasteddie9318: I don’t necessarily disagree with either of your points. m_c was unclear in one of comments and that led to my response. I don’t necessarily agree with her, but, after clarification, I do not think we are as far apart as it had seemed.

    ETA: If she were less dogmatic in her comments, she might actually find people a lot closer to agreement with her than she would expect. If someone agrees with one on 75% of an issue but one insists on 100%, one will get a lot of argument.

  134. 134.

    matoko_chan

    February 10, 2011 at 3:34 pm

    @fasteddie9318: wasnt Indonesia one of your “secular” examples? lawl. tell that to the FPI. that is where the church burning was, and Indonesia has anti-blasphemy laws.
    @Omnes Omnibus:

    The Bush/Cheney bunch were interested in profit and proving their manhood IMHO.

    mebbe not for Cheney, but Bush is a fucking WEC. Rumsfeld capped Bush’s briefing slides with bible quotes, and you membah Gog and Magog dontcha?

  135. 135.

    matoko_chan

    February 10, 2011 at 3:35 pm

    ack moderated.
    WTF? i only had 2 links.

  136. 136.

    TOP123

    February 10, 2011 at 3:35 pm

    @Dan: Absolutely. However much individual positions and posts might infuriate, the overall level of writing and breadth of interests he keeps going on one site is impressive… and it’s something like this that really makes you think about it. I’ve always been hooked by something over there. Here’s hoping he has a speedy recovery.

  137. 137.

    Abrxas

    February 10, 2011 at 4:09 pm

    He’s had some sort of lung issue. He’s addressed it ina couple of posts. His docs recommend he get back to complete health before blogging. No big mystery. He just Posted today that he’ll be back on Monday.

  138. 138.

    Brachiator

    February 10, 2011 at 4:14 pm

    @matoko_chan:

    replacing islamic regimes with Westernstyle/judeoxian democracy is war on islam. no bout a doubt it.

    Wasn’t an Islamic regime imposed upon Egypt?

    Shouldn’t Islam be thrown out of that country, the way that it is being ousted from Southern Sudan?

  139. 139.

    piratedan

    February 10, 2011 at 5:19 pm

    @Paul in KY: no sweat Paul, knowing the likelihood of a full recovery is rather daunting but considering the hurdles she’s already cleared you can’t help but wonder “what if”. By all rights, that woman should be dead except for an extrordinary set of heroic actions by other folks that saved her life and as such you tend to get attached to the notion that we’ll actually end up with a Hollywood ending in her case, although no one has a right to expect it.

  140. 140.

    fasteddie9318

    February 10, 2011 at 6:57 pm

    @matoko_chan:

    wasnt Indonesia one of your…

    Why no, no it wasn’t. But now that I’m back home and it’s thankfully working on this computer, I do agree that pie is wonderful.

  141. 141.

    matoko_chan

    February 10, 2011 at 7:02 pm

    bye bye eddie.

    /drops safe

  142. 142.

    nestor

    February 10, 2011 at 7:10 pm

    @matoko_chan:

    You toons are all the same.

  143. 143.

    matoko_chan

    February 10, 2011 at 7:21 pm

    @nestor: indeed.
    /wicked grin

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