The NYT magazine has a good article about the fall-out from the Catholic Church abuse scandals that took place in Ireland. Church attendance has now fallen 50% over the past 30 years and there are more priests over 70 than under 40. The response from the Vatican has been heavy-handed and top-down: the most prominent local reformer within the church, archbishop Diarmuid Martin, has been passed over for promotion and is now shunned by other bishops.
What I wonder with stories like this is what kind of plan does the Catholic Church have for the future? Young people are leaving the church in droves throughout the west, partly in response to the scandals and the fact that the church hierarchy functions as a proxy for the conservative movement in many parts of the western world (e.g., here). Is the plan just to double down on cover-ups and right-wing theology? Do conservatives ever do anything other than double down anymore?
Update. Morzer has a good summary of the Vatican’s plan, such as it is:
They’ve shown you the plan very clearly over the last 20 years. Pack the upper levels of the church hierarchy with known conservatives, select a conservative as pope, no significant rethinking of theology, roll back the remains of Vatican II, occasional ecumenical gestures while trying to undermine other churches and pick off their angry conservative splinter sects, bring back the formerly unacceptable conservative kooks, raise as much money as possible, put on lots of son et lumiere for the gullible masses, and cling to what they have as grimly and arrogantly as possible. This is exactly what they did under John Paul II, and Benedict was chosen to carry on the good work, so to speak. Ultimately, it will be a losing game, but these things take time.
NobodySpecial
I’m trying to get my mind out of the gutter to reply to this, and I can’t.
Phil Perspective
Do conservatives ever do anything other than double down anymore?
No!!!!!!!
cathyx
I read or heard a while back that most new priests come from Latin America and South America.
Phil Perspective
DougJ:
Is it possible to stop asking rhetorical questions?
Mike in NC
“Will the last person to leave kindly shut off the lights? Thank you.” – Father Bob
Teri
I was talking to a friend that worked this past year in a girls school in kenya that our church sponsors and the there is a difference in the “american” Catholic Church and the African Catholic Church. Here our parish and dioceses are much more self sufficient than in Africa. There much of the policy, and day to day details are directed from the Archdioceses. Different parishes, with different Priests and parish councils determine the direction (within diocese guidelines) of the local church. One church can be vibrant, growing and engaged with young people and another can be “old school” Catholics with diminishing parishes. American Catholics seem to be much more self directed and independent than European/African/Asian Catholics in my own experience.
DougJ®
@Phil Perspective:
I think they may have a plan, I don’t what it is.
el donaldo
Goodbye and good riddance. There used to be a day when I was proud of the church’s stance on issues of social justice and peace, but now, after the scandal and after learning myself more about the nastiness of the arch conservatism of the American Catholic hierarchy throughout the 20th century, I can’t wait for the whole blasted thing to wither on the vine.
Omnes Omnibus
@DougJ®: That is, of course, central to the plan’s success.
Teri
@el donaldo: A lot of that is because of the politics of higher church. Some local churches/priests are more focused on the mission of Christ “To love and serve one another” rather than filling the coffers or pushing a social agenda. Finding a place that fulfills you spiritually but doesn’t make your political hackles raise is a tricky thing.
aimai
To echo Ninotchka, when asked about the Russian Show Trials:
“There will be fewer, but better, Russians.”
aimai
aimai
To echo Ninotchka, when asked about the Russian Show Trials:
“There will be fewer, but better, Russians.”
aimai
RossInDetroit
I was raised in and schooled by the Catholic church. They’re on track to be an organization with membership in Central and South America and Africa and leadership in The Vatican. I suppose they’ll have deserved that, having burned every bridge in the West.
Anne Laurie
@cathyx:
And Africa — although the Africans are assigned to Europe more than the U.S., for some reason. Just as in the Middle Ages, the Catholic priesthood is the way for an ambitious young man to get an education & access to a comfortable life that would otherwise be denied due to his parents’ desperate poverty.
Benedict’s made it pretty clear that he considers a “smaller, purer” version of the medieaval Church preferable to the cafeteria-Catholicism of the decadent First-Worlders in this effete 21st century, so this is no doubt part of the Plan.
BGinCHI
When they took a big shit on Liberation Theology a few decades back they were fucked. Taking the side of the poor, and supporting causes that Colonialism and Capitalism made intolerable was their last chance.
They’ve now sided with the rich, conservative, and pederastical. Not a recipe for growth, but an excellent way to create hard-core followers who don’t talk back and make theology a hard business.
morzer
@DougJ®:
They’ve shown you the plan very clearly over the last 20 years. Pack the upper levels of the church hierarchy with known conservatives, select a conservative as pope, no significant rethinking of theology, roll back the remains of Vatican II, occasional ecumenical gestures while trying to undermine other churches and pick off their angry conservative splinter sects, bring back the formerly unacceptable conservative kooks, raise as much money as possible, put on lots of son et lumiere for the gullible masses, and cling to what they have as grimly and arrogantly as possible. This is exactly what they did under John Paul II, and Benedict was chosen to carry on the good work, so to speak. Ultimately, it will be a losing game, but these things take time. My guess is that you’ll see a lot more “cultural” Catholics as the next two decades unfold, and a marked drop in those who actually believe or listen to the teachings of the Church on abortion, contraception etc etc.
MikeJ
@BGinCHI:
Reagan was paying people to rape nuns. Of course they changed their ways.
geg6
aimai has it exactly right (must be why she said it twice!). This particular Pope has stated quite baldly that he wants a smaller group of adherents to the Church. I think we should all oblige him. Of course, fewer Catholics to pony up the cash means he might have to give up his Pradas. But the world will be a better place, so I can live with old Bennie being forced to shoe shop at Payless.
Baud
As long as people want weddings and funerals, the Catholic Church (and every other religion) will do just fine.
And yes, all conservatives do is double down. I can’t blame them, either. Everyone else always seems to have something more important to do than hold them accountable.
morzer
@geg6:
I kind of like the idea of being friends without Bennies, so to speak….
Chris Dowd
Can’t speak for the goings on in Ireland- nor for anyone else but myself and my perceptions- but as a Boston Irish Catholic I can say that The Church is dying and more than likely deserves it. I feel nothing for it anymore. Used to attend regularly- a downtown shrine/church- as late as just a few years ago. But the new pope insinuating that Muslims are inherently violent- adding his voice- with the usual mealy mouth BS about “Peace” vaguely- to the pro war crowd. . .? Going to Mass and hearing the calls for praying for the troops- no mention ever- ever- of the Muslims killed- and this was at a church that was pretty liberal- reach out to gays and whatnot. And then you have clowns like Donahue of the Catholic League writing letters to the New York Times complaining about how molestation of boys over 13 years old is not pedophilia technically- and complaining about movies no one cares about. I mean it is just repulsive. The Church is sclerotic and out of touch beyond all measure.
You don’t even hear them on the issue of Rapture Nutters in the military intimidating Catholics whatsoever. They don’t care why should I?
And then you get polls of Catholics in which majorities support torture more so than other Christian denominations . . . I mean what is to admire? Sure- there are good people doing good works- but so what? Every organized religion has such folks.
And you know what? The fall of the Catholic Church might be a good thing as far as I am concerned. Irish American identity needs something else- cause “The Church” has been a net negative. I don’t know what is gonna replace it- but I just don’t feel anything for it anymore. Its callous- out of touch- dominated by weird men. Its message seems to be render unto Caesar and shut the fuck up.
MonkeyBoy
@DougJ®:
The Catholic Church owns an incredible amount of real-estate and other property. In areas where the Church is dying out the remnants can live off this capital for a long time and the smaller their priestly and lay membership is the longer it will last.
In my area a good number of actual churches have gone on the market. I wonder how much of the US CC “revenue” comes from asset sales.
Villago Delenda Est
@DougJ®:
Well, you know, we were told the Cylons had a plan.
Turns out they didn’t.
Villago Delenda Est
@BGinCHI:
It’s the authoritarian mindset, once again.
These people cannot handle freedom. They talk about it, but they don’t believe it, because freedom is messy. It means that someone will disagree with you, that someone will do something you don’t like, even out of your sight, that will cause you distress at the mere thought of it taking place.
eemom
hmmm……20+ comments and nothing from the BJ chapter of the Catholic Anti-Defamation League. Something’s not right here….
Baud
@Anne Laurie: I recall when John Paul II died, there was some talk about naming an African pope. When Benedict passes, it’ll be interesting to see what they do, and if they go that route, how he will be received in the West.
aimai
@Baud:
Hell, how would he be received in ITALY?
aimai
PS. Saw the Vatican for the first time last year. That’s a ton of stuff they are sitting on that could be sold to pay for the poor.
morzer
@Baud:
As long as the Italians have any significant say in it, you can forget any notion of an African pope. It’s more likely that they’ll pick a suitably conservative Latin American cardinal, with much fanfare about reconciliation, repentance of the sins of colonization, talk of brave monks fighting for los Indios etc etc.
morzer
@DougJ®:
Oh DougJ, did you have to go and make me blush in public? My first moment of frontpager acclaim… I may have to buy some Prada. Blessings will be administered to all in the public square with a bucket of sheep-dip and a broad brush.
Villago Delenda Est
@Baud:
Well, it will cause problems in the fundie protestant/catholic “put the wanton whores in their place” coalition, because the fundie protestants will have serious problems with an African Pope. It’s a shaky alliance to begin with, as the fundies are in the alliance only because they share a hatred of the secular with the hard Catholics. Should they win the battle with the forces of secularism, they’ll revert to old form Papist bashing.
The KKK was as much anti-Catholic (and immigrant…who at the time were mostly Catholic) in its 20’s heyday as it was anti-Black.
Baud
@aimai: I visited a few years ago. They put priceless art in their broom closet, they’ve got so much stuff.
Chris Dowd
@Villago Delenda Est:
Yeah- James Michael Curly- when he ran for governor – had his operatives burn crosses on nearby hillsides where he gave speeches- to give the impression that the KKK was gaining strength in New England (where it never had much of a following) to insinuate that his Yankee opponent was soft on the KKK. He red baited at the same time as well- actually claiming that the KKK was communist! LOL. Curly. Broke the mold with that guy.
Baud
@Villago Delenda Est: Yeah, no kidding. Sometimes, when I’m feeling Galtian, I wish secular liberals would just go fishing for a few decades so we could watch the fundies go after each other for a while. I think you’d start to hear a lot more about the separation of church and state.
aimai
@Baud:
Plus, what did they do with all those putti penises after hacking them off and putting on the figleafs? Is there a market for that?
aimai
me
@DougJ®:
“Give us more money and we won’t rape your kids.”
DougJ®
@eemom:
Do you mean burnes?
The majority of people who comment in these threads are Catholic, so we’re just self-hating, btw.
Kryptik
It’s just frustrating to see the Church this way. As much as I’ve become frustrated with the Neo-Calvinist strain of Protestantism that’s become the face of Christianity in America, the Catholic Church has not done much better, finding all too much common ground with the assholistic “Christians” pervading the public view and generally perverting the spirit of Christianity for the sake of rigid moralizing and subjugation of the philosophy to the mysticism.
JPL
I use to mention to my atheist children who are adults now how much the Catholic Church use to do to help subsidize the poor of the world. Obviously that has changed and imo they are now trying to recapture those that left for the evangelical churches. They are no longer concerned about those values that Mother Teresa cared about.
morzer
@Kryptik:
Not mysticism, but legalism.
Kryptik
@DougJ®:
Sez you. Lapsed here. Try and call me a Catholic without that qualifier and them’s fightin’ words.
morzer
@JPL:
“Mother” Teresa was fanatical about abortion and contraception, not to mention imposing baptism on the dying.
Just sayin’.
BGinCHI
@JPL: Did you read Christopher Hitchens’ book on Mother T? Hint: it’s called The Missionary Position. Damning stuff in there.
morzer
@DougJ®:
Out of curiosity, how is this known? Do our IP addresses convey some sort of sacred flavor? Or is this a Four Loko statistic?
Chris Dowd
@morzer:
Yeah- well- Mother Teresa didn’t spend her life inside a martini glass with a pack of Marly’s at the elbow like Chris Hitchens.
MikeJ
@aimai: Mark 14 has the approved answer for that.
BGinCHI
@Chris Dowd: Quality “blame the messenger” move.
He’s going to hell for sure, but at least he admits it.
flounder
Just moved to Boston and am living with the in-laws while we house hunt.
My 75-ish year old father-in-law, who goes to mass like 3 days a week told me a couple weeks ago that he no longer believes in the sovereignty of the Pope ever since he smuggled all the pedophiles from the Boston diocese over to the Vatican and gave them all jobs. He likes his local parish guys and not much else.
My grandmother, who was the most religious and caring person, and who did more charity and administering to the poor than anyone I’ve ever known, told me in on her death bed that the Church is “only in it for the money”.
When you’ve lost the true believers…
aimai
@flounder:
Hey flounder, good luck with the househunting. And sorry about all the snow and ice.
aimai
morzer
@Chris Dowd:
Nor did Hitchens. The standard of care in Teresa’s hospices was hardly first-class either. It’s time we stopped making the cult of Teresa into more than it was – a slick marketing move to promote a fanatic with much less to her credit than the legend claims.
alwhite
Look, if you believe this bullshit than it is as simple as alpha and omega, as it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be. That means that any change must be wrong and must be prevented. What choice do they have?
If the sun does not rotate around the earth, if mental illness is not caused by demons, if natural disaster are not His judgment – in short if everything the church as said it the immutable word of God is not absolutely defended it opens the gates of doubt about the entire load of shit.
This is not just a problem for the RC church, it is a problem for all churches.
Chris Dowd
Hitchen’s was a sot – whose pen was all about his own rage and demons. Yeah- Mother Teresa believed some weird stuff and had weird assocations- but who was of good faith and who was of bad? Hitchen’s was all about his own hate and rage and self loathing his entire life- and not for a second did he ever point that acerbic mean pen at himself.
DougJ®
@morzer:
I can tell.
morzer
@alwhite:
Much as I dislike Christian theology, most of the issues you raise have been debated within the various Christian traditions, and they don’t really have any impact on the core message of salvation. Yes, they show that the messengers of salvation are human, and therefore fallible in their interpretation, but most churches don’t deny this, which is why they have synods etc to discuss and debate.
morzer
@DougJ®:
But are you infallible? Or is this a matter that does not relate to BJ doctrine?
Chris Dowd
@flounder:
Welcome to Boston!
morzer
@Chris Dowd:
It wasn’t and isn’t just Hitchens who denounced the cult of Teresa. Aroup Chatterjee, among others, did research and documented a good deal of evidence of questionable use of funds, poor quality of care, and promotion of a narrow and fanatical agenda by Teresa and her associates. What matters are the facts, not whether Hitchens drinks or not. Refute the facts and the evidence, and then we’ll talk about tangential issues like alcohol consumption.
Cacti
If this story involved anything other than a church, they’d be facing a RICO prosecution as a criminal enterprise.
aimai
I detest Hitchens but I believe he raised some serious points about Mother Teresa’s handling of money, her treatment of the ill and dying, and her treatment of her nuns. Whether its enough to think that she thought she was doing right is an open question. The modality of the treatment of suffering in the parts of the church that are run by women, or deal with women and the poor, is a vexed one. I’m thinking of Karen Armstrong’s book about leaving the nunnery. The amount of active crushing of individuality and spirit that was thought necessary to creating a good nun is not unlike the practices of crushing, humiliating, and undertreating the poor that Hitchens describes. If the object is to stretch a little money further that’s one thing. Hitchens alleges that the money did not, in fact, go to the poor but was siphoned off by the hierarchy. Caring for people when they are sick or dying is meritorious, whatever your beliefs. But undertreating them, or giving them less than all you can, because you believe that suffering in this world is necessary for admission to the next, is highly problematic.
aimai
Chris Dowd
@morzer:
You mean Mother Teresa wasn’t perfect? Wasn’t a Saint! Oh my! Heaven’s to Betsy! Yes- she certainly didn’t do as much as Chris Hitchens did for humanity. Whose life- perception and illusions included- did more net good? Whose life’s ripples left a better mark upon humanity?
alwhite
@morzer:
Yes, and every time they are debated the old guard loses ground. Thats why they must double down. Every one of the Christian denominations exist simply because of a fight between the traditionalists and the modernists. And each division reduces the income of the old church and speeds the day when people start asking, “If this much is pure bullshit, how much of the rest of it is too?”
morzer
@Chris Dowd:
Nice try, but Hitchens ain’t the issue here. We are discussing the over-promotion of Teresa, her mishandling of funds, her failure to provide adequate care, and her abuse of the dying by imposing her own faith on them. Deal with the issue on the table, not by trying to attack someone else.
BGinCHI
@Chris Dowd: Dude, stop digging.
It’s not about Hitchens. It’s about what missionary zeal and Catholic Colonialism did to poor people. Even those who do good can do bad.
BGinCHI
@morzer: Stop reading my mind.
morzer
@alwhite:
If you mean that debating issues damages papal infallibility, that’s probably true, but papal infallibility has been a standing joke outside the Vatican for a very long time. All it does is impede re-unification of the churches. Most of the issues you raise simply aren’t seen as a problem by most people in the various churches, because they really don’t affect the core message of Jesus and salvation. Debating them isn’t really a problem for the Catholic church either. They are more likely to be worried by the re-appearance of e.g. “lost” Gospels giving women a more prominent role in the early church, and showing just how much of modern church doctrine goes against major strands of early Christian thought.
morzer
@BGinCHI:
Get out of my head, you Satanic agent of Hitchensianism!
MattR
@BGinCHI: @morzer: It’s like watching Matthew Perry and Cornel West on Real Time with Bill Maher.
BGinCHI
@MattR: But without the getting paid part.
Plus, I’m funnier than Perry.
morzer
@BGinCHI:
You do seem like more of a Cornell West type….
shortstop
Annoying as it must be for the Vatican boys to be getting constant lip from Catholics in North America, Australia, the UK and western Europe, I don’t think they’re overly concerned about the flock shrinking. As has been mentioned, the church in Latin America, Africa and parts of Asia is doing just fine in terms of membership. It has a virtually endless supply of faithful who rely too heavily on it for basic needs to ask many questions about why the local priest seems so fond of children.
The “smaller, purer” church = people who lack the financial resources or educational, political and social tools to fight back against wholesale abuse and exploitation. Ratzo and his buds had better hope that it stays that way. I suspect the stories of abuse that would come out of impoverished nations would make what we’ve seen so far sound PG.
BGinCHI
@morzer: I see what you did there.
eemom
I’m glad someone brought up the Mother T point. I have never been a fan of Hitchens but I thought his debunking of that hagiography were rock solid
I also agree with my Morzie that it’s got nothing to do with Hitchens himself, besotted religion-bashing atheist though he may be; nor is it a question of Mother T being less than “perfect.” She affirmatively fought AGAINST things — e.g., access to birth control, not to mention her virulent opposition to abortion — that would have done more to help the people she purported to care about than anything she ever did.
shortstop
I remember being mildly shocked at Hitchens calling Teresa the Ghoul of Calcutta.
Was I ever that innocent?
Chris Dowd
@morzer:
And ACORN wasn’t perfect either. I’m not defending Mother Teresa’s entire life’s portfolio. Plenty of critics of her who are NOT Chris Hitchens however. And that is what I am talking about. Mother Teresa’s legacy isn’t inviolate- but she it shouldn’t have to stand up to the likes of a human louse like Hitchens.
eemom
feh, it’s telling me I don’t have permission to edit and fix my grammatical and punctuational errors…..fuck that shit.
shortstop
@Chris Dowd: Oh, nonsense. If you start judging criticism by the personal habits of who’s doling it out, you’ll never have any objective means of gauging its merit. You’d have a point if Hitchens styled himself as a savior of the poor and some actual comparisons could be made. He doesn’t and you don’t.
eemom
@Chris Dowd:
So a person has to pass a character test of some kind to advance fact-based criticisms of a public figure?
Chris Dowd
And BTW- I don’t care about his Atheism either. Hell- at this point- I’m dabbling in that direction myself. But that man . . . and I use that term loosely with him . . . has no credibility on anything in my mind. What he did- what he stood for . . . Good God (if there is one) . . . he’s beyond the pale and everything the man ever wrote- in my mind is suspect. If he wrote a treatise abusing the Devil- I would come to the Devil’s defense.
gil mann
Appropriately enough, that comparison’s nutty and seedy.
BGinCHI
@Chris Dowd: You could do so while listening to “Sympathy for the Devil,” but be careful, I hear those musicians did some bad things.
Carol
There are already Independent Catholic churches around. There is one group that is based in the Netherlands, and there is the Old Catholic Church.
There is nothing that prevents the Americans from forming an American Catholic Church headed by an Archbishop/Cardinal (some other prelate to be named) that is independent but keeps the best of the old theology and allows for modern ideas on theology as well. Once the American branch goes out on its own, it can work on its own renewal and bring back some of the old folks who have left.
Chris Dowd
@eemom:
Yes. Drunks are not honest people- don’t know if you know that. Hitchens was a merc pen. A dilettante- a dandy- a whore. A liar.
And yeah- I do take into account the character of people whose opinions I seek and trust. Couple weeks back- a county Sheriff killed himself in Massachusetts- after the press got wind of his double dipping pension scheme- which though technically legal made him out to look scummy. The guy backed off and though he could have walked away with his double pension to his cape house retirement- he did the right thing- and refused it. Still- the local Murdoch press (The Herald) piled on the guy and he shot himself in the head (cause you know- those public employees are draining us dry with their pensions and all).
Howie Carr- a guy who battled local corruption- did some brave reporting in his time- at least I thought so- wrote a despicable column less than 24 hours after the guy shot himself- in which he made light of the suicide. It was disgusting. Indecent. A man who writes something like that? Has no character- is not decent- and thus to me- not believable. He’ll write anything.
That was Chris Hitchens- his whole life.
eemom
@Carol:
I think there are many, many things that would prevent that from happening, from threats of excommunication on down to lawsuits for trademark infringement.
Chris Dowd
@BGinCHI:
Really? Wow. I wasn’t aware that Keith Richards has written attack books on people? Where are John Lennon’s drug infused diatribes tearing down particular individuals lives?
As another poster pointed out- if you want to convince people of Mother Teresa’s perfidy – there are far more credible people to point to other than Chris Hitchens who in the credibility department- has none.
shortstop
@Carol:
They are not in communion with Rome, no? Might as well just go Anglican. The Christmas pageants are to die for, you can still have a thurifer if you go high church enough, and you don’t have to start all over signing people up to do coffee hour.
Wile E. Quixote
@Villago Delenda Est:
It’s not just the puritanism that you describe, it’s also the fact that freedom requires responsibility and self-discipine, qualities that right-wingers are sorely lacking. It’s so much easier when you have someone telling you what to do and how to do it because you don’t have to think or decide for yourself and you don’t have to take any responsibility when it all goes to shit.
shortstop
@Chris Dowd:
Actually, that “other poster” is you. You’re the only one beating the “far more credible than Hitchens” drum. One other person here named another critic, then promptly added that this conversation is not about Hitchens.
And so it isn’t. It’s not going unnoticed that your ongoing rant about Hitchens is unaccompanied by any substantive discussion of where Teresa went wrong. We get that you really, really want to shift the goalposts. We’re just not going to accommodate you.
quaint irene
The Church having a plan? Who knows. More like floundering about. In 2009 didn’t Benedict make the bizarre statement that condoms would spread AIDS? Then by 2010 he reversed himslef and said they could help prevent the disease.
Carol
Old Catholic Church.
I didn’t realize so many people answered my question. But those those who feel that they have to stay in the official Catholic Church because they can’t do Protestant-like Anglican, this clearly shows there are options that they can relate to.
The abuses come because the Holy See got out of touch with themselves and the needs of their parishoners, and a need to preserve a multi-nation organization, not because of theology. Go local, and at least there will be more accountability and more concern,
Chris Dowd
@shortstop:
I don’t give a crap about Teresa. What I find odd though- is the holding up of Chris Hitchens as a credible critic of her. Is the man not a liar? Has he not been a whore his whole life? What’s with the picking and choosing among his writings? The man is a liar. Everything he has ever written is suspect.
Oh- but he smashed an icon that you hate as well so he’s an honest dealer on that one? That you agree with?
Pffft.
Wile E. Quixote
@Chris Dowd:
Really? Name some. Name another journalist who exposed the sanctimonious bullshit that Mother Teresa was selling for the Catholic Church. Come on, name one. Just one. You don’t like Chris Hitchens, fine, I wouldn’t invite the guy over for dinner either. But you have nothing that even resembles a substantive criticism of what he wrote about Mother Teresa, or any information that it wasn’t credible, just a bunch of whining about his character, or lack thereof. Let me guess, you’re one of those people who doesn’t like Matt Taibbi because he says “fuck” a lot and who thinks, along with David Broder, that liberals are too shrill.
Hitchens had balls of steel to write and say what he did about Mother Teresa and I for one am glad that he did.
Wile E. Quixote
Oh, and speaking of Mother Teresa, a classic from the Onion
Elton John Wows Mother Theresa Funeral Crowd With ‘The Bitch Is Back”
Chris Dowd
@Wile E. Quixote:
Use your scroll button. Plenty of Indian critics of Mother Teresa who were not besotted liars and reprobates like Chris Hitchens. You like him and find him credible? We disagree. The man is a louse and liar and a drunk- whose life’s wake left humanity just a little bit worse off (I don’t want to credit him with too much more than that.)
shortstop
@Carol:
That’s interesting to me. Other than some skirmishing about trans- versus consubstantiation, the great divide of whether to ordain women and married men, and some teachings regarding sexual conduct, there’s little to separate Roman Catholicism from high church Anglicanism other than the question of papal infallibility. The people willing to splinter from Rome have obviously made up their minds against that particular doctrine, so what’s the holdup?
What points of doctrine do you feel you need that the Episcopal church doesn’t follow? Or is it more a matter of tribalism — somewhat like my mom, who was a Democrat in deed and vote long before she could let go of the image of herself as a Republican?
IM
The (catholic) church will adapt. It always did. It did survive the renaissance popes after all.
Hitchens – that old whisky-soaked trotskyite is still alive, right?
shortstop
@IM:
It is. By putting all its chips into the undeveloped and/or less wealthy parts of the world. That’s the game plan going forward.
morzer
@Chris Dowd:
Let’s put this in simple terms:
Stop trying to avoid the numerous issues of Teresa by talking about other people.
The more you try to confuse the issue or change the topic, the more evident it becomes that you know Teresa has a lot to answer for.
aimai
@Chris Dowd:
Wait, this doesn’t make any sense. If there were “plenty of other critics” of Mother Teresa saying the exact same things as Hitchens where do you get off calling Hitchens a liar on the subject of Mother Teresa? Look, Hitchens wasn’t always a sloppy drunk, and he wasn’t always pro Iraq war. He had a life before that and his work has to be judged piece by piece, like everyone’s. Sometimes he’s been good and written honestly researched stuff, and sometimes he’s been glib or contrarian for its own sake. So what? Didn’t you write an impassioned plea up above, on behalf of the county sherriff who “double dipped” his pension that the entirety of a man’s life should be taken into account before he is attacked and vilified by the press?
We get that you don’t like Hitchens, but that isn’t a reason to disregard his research on Mother Teresa any more than disliking Mother Teresa is a reason to believe his book. If he proved his case, he proved his case. Even a drunken watch can be right twice a day.
aimai
Chris Dowd
@shortstop:
The church is dead. It will be place for weddings and funerals- baptism’s and first communions and some confirmations and once a year church attending Catholics- Christmas Day- maybe Easter too. Can’t speak about its life in the Southern Hemisphere- but here- in Boston- its dead. And I was one of the last holdouts in my family- attending regularly until a few years ago.
Can’t tell you how the Church sex abuse scandal and almost more importantly than that- the Church’s reaction to it- destroyed it in the minds of entire generations here.
And from what I read- the abuse in Ireland was far deeper than here- not just sex abuse- but beatings and physical abuse- and psychological abuse.
And yet- I can’t help but feel like something has been lost- if just myths and dreams. But they are gone- it is gone. The spell is broken.
Mnemosyne
@Wile E. Quixote:
Um, wouldn’t the fact that Hitchens is the only person making the claims point more to him being a liar than him being the brave truth-teller that no one else is?
Of course, he’s not the only person who made the same claims, but I guess it counts more to have a white guy make them than journalists in India who were reporting the story for years before Hitchens climbed on the bandwagon and claimed all of the credit for himself.
morzer
@Wile E. Quixote:
Aroup Chatterjee, for one. Indian, journalist, native of Kolkata (Calcutta as was). Doubtless we shall now be told by Chris Dowd that he is a wife-beating drunk and drug kingpin etc etc etc.
“Even wild beasts are not as ferocious as these Christians in their hatred” seems to apply with considerable force here.
Carol
@shortstop: While these churches are in communion with the Anglican Church, my impression is that these churches may be more of a “Catholic” style kind of church when it comes to ritual and perhaps some of the doctrine and other practices and the language. Maybe it’s in the Saints, maybe some of the Feasts. I’m not a member so I’m not certain where the divide is on these things. But I suspect that this Church maintains its identity by being more traditionalist on some things.
There is also a class element that may intimidate some folks from going into the Episcopal Church as well. It’s gained a reputation as a Church for the rich, and a person who wants a sacramental experience may need to go somewhere that seems less lofty.
Mnemosyne
@morzer:
Or Chris Dowd will point out that, unlike Hitchens, Chatterjee actually lives and works in the country where the story happened and didn’t sponge off the reporting of others to claim that he was the only person to see through Mother Teresa.
Chris Dowd
@aimai:
Point taken- but life is too short to investigate every writer’s portfolio and thus we have to go on our guts and yes- the character of the writer himself. And Hitchen’s disgraceful latter writings cast a pale upon him in MY mind- maybe not yours- and that castes a pale upon everything he has ever written.
I don’t merely disagree with Hitchens on what he wrote regarding Iraq and his horrendous apologias for empire in general? I find them to be dishonest and of bad faith. I don’t believe he believed a word he wrote on those subjects. His bad faith oozes in those writings- and so offended me- as someone who actually liked him at one point- that I simply cannot take anything he wrote at face value. I can’t. Won’t.
aimai
Yes, from the wiki:
–aimai
eemom
@Mnemosyne:
did Hitchens do that? Claim that he was the only one, or the first, and/or take credit for the work of others? Just asking, cuz I have no idea.
Chris Dowd
@Mnemosyne:
Maybe Teresa ate children. I don’t know. But I’d believe an Indian writer about Mother Teresa before I would Chris Hitchens- whom I did gather merely sponged off other writers on that beat for years.
morzer
http://newhumanist.org.uk/622
One review of Chatterjee’s book that puts the case fairly succinctly.
Incidentally, I don’t remember Hitchens trying to claim all the credit for exposing Teresa’s various frauds and acts of fanaticism.
aimai
@Chris Dowd:
But no one is asking you to take something that he wrote at “face value.” He wrote a piece of investigative journalism on a specific topic of some importance. He could be the worst person in the world and what he wrote could still be true. How do you account for Mother Teresa’s support for Duvalier? How do you account for the fact that she gathered millions but didn’t use it for more than palliative care–and publicly refused to offer treatment or pain management for her suffering clients? That was her stance on the matter, not an interpretive question. For another instance its either a fact that she refused to hold money in india because it would have been strictly audited, or it isn’t. Which is it?
aimai
morzer
@Chris Dowd:
Evidence? Or is this just more “Hitchens’ hatred for the under-fives”?
Mnemosyne
@eemom:
I’ve never heard him credit any other journalists for his “scoop,” and often heard him claim that no one else ever criticized her. Maybe he meant no one in the US, or no one in England, but it sure sounds like claiming the credit to me.
morzer
@Mnemosyne:
Well, if you believe something to be a scoop, it would be pretty unusual to credit someone else for it, no?
Could we see some links to Hitchens’ claiming all the credit? Just to document the atrocities, you understand.
Mnemosyne
BTW, Aroup Chatterjee was somewhat less than impressed with the documentary that Hitchens wrote for the BBC and does seem to feel that Hitchens used the story to aggrandize himself:
Mnemosyne
@morzer:
Not crediting people for a “scoop” that you didn’t actually make is generally called “plagiarism.” You can read my comment at #112 to see what some of the other critics of Mother Teresa think of Hitchens.
ETA: Note that the documentary that Banerjee proposed was produced three years before Hitchens’ book.
Anne Laurie
@MonkeyBoy:
This has been a fierce bone of contention here in Boston for the last decade and more. The church hierarchy has tried to closed down parishes willy-nilly, in some cases selling properties that may not have been theirs to sell. They insist it’s because “greedy lawyers” have been able to “take advantage of a few soul-sick damaged individuals” by winning lawsuits against the pedophile enablers, so the money to pay off those lawsuits has to come from somewhere. Dissidents in those closed parishes have claimed, with considerable documentation, that it’s less about “streamlining” and more about (a) taking advantage of ‘hot’ property markets during the real estate bubble; and (b) punishing parishes whose pastors and/or members were considered insufficiently submissive. There’s also people, many of them raised in those parishes, who say the money from property sales is not going to the local diocese (either for lawsuits or expenses) but being shipped offshore to keep it away from greedy “progressives” and safe in the hands of the Vatican bookkeepers. More indications that Pope Ratzi is trying for one last smash’n’grab before the Chosen Few retreat behind the protective wall of the Swiss Guard and the no-longer-Swiss banking guardians…
Nutella
@Carol:
The problem with local churches going independent is that the central church owns all the assets. This is true for Catholics, Anglicans, and others that have central management. If any local group wants to split off they’ll need to buy their own churches and schools after they’re locked out of the buildings that belong to the hierarchy. No matter how much the parishioners may have contributed in money or service they don’t have title.
Chris Dowd
@aimai:
I don’t account for any of it. Again- its not about her. She could be the worst person in the world- in fact- there are people- who spent a lot of time looking into her stuff and life who are NOT Chris Hitchens whom I have no trouble believing.
Hitchens is a liar. A proven liar. He’s a whore and a louse. And if you want to convince people of Mother Teresa’s corruption and all around negative effects on the people she purported to help? Just don’t use Hitchens. That’s all I am saying. He doesn’t deserve it.
And yeah- the fact that he lied about a great many things- in fact- most things in his career does not mean he lied about Mother Teresa- but his name is blackened when it comes to truth- and thus pointing to him as a credible critic of her- isn’t going to dent her reputation to badly- given that Hitchens is a known liar.
I’m just offended that anyone would use anything he wrote to besmirch anybody. He deserves nothing but ignominy. And that’s all.
morzer
@Mnemosyne:
Except that your excerpt does reveal special thanks being given to Chatterjee, which isn’t quite the same thing as him being ignored. We also don’t have a timeline of who published what and when, nor of who began working on the story when, whether they knew each other’s work etc etc.
In either case, this is all irrelevant to the real point in the debate, which is the fraudulent and repellent nature of Teresa’s conduct. That’s what matters, not some pissing match over Hitchens’ personality.
DougJ®
@morzer:
The guilt is a give away. There could be a few Jewish impostors that slip by my radar, but no protestants will.
morzer
@Chris Dowd:
That’s idiotic. You don’t like Hitchens, fine. But that’s no warrant for dismissing everything he wrote just because you think he was caught lying on a particular occasion.
Are you claiming that you have never lied?
morzer
@DougJ®:
So which am I, DougJ? Hmm? Hmmm?
Also too: when is the next encyclical due?
Sko Hayes
I always say the church left me, I stopped going every Sunday the year I turned 16 (my father told me I had to go until I was 16, then I could do anything I chose).
Their treatment of women, the Saturday confessions, the overlooking of wealthy Catholics who divorced and were still allowed to take communion. The abject failure of the church to take responsibility for the abuses suffered at the hands of priests has turned off even long time Catholics like my 87 year old aunt. The bishopPAC that insists on inserting itself in political discussion simply cannot be tolerated. There are so many things wrong these days, it’s a wonder there are any Catholics left.
DougJ®
@Chris Dowd:
He’s also an anti-religion ideologue. I don’t trust ideologues, even when I agree with them.
Mnemosyne
@morzer:
Ah, handwaving. You just can’t stand to see someone criticize Hitchens, can you?
Then why don’t we discuss Chatterjee’s book about Mother Teresa, especially since Chatterjee feels that Hitchens exaggerated quite a few of his claims? It’s only Hitchens’ book that ever comes up in discussions of Mother Teresa’s hypocrisy.
morzer
@DougJ®:
But that makes you an anti-anti-religion ideologue – so presumably you don’t trust yourself, and we can’t trust you either – right?
Now, about that iocaine powder. Have you chosen your goblet, DougJVizzini?
eemom
having no info as to Hitchens’ having plagiarized or otherwise failed to credit others, and therefore not opining re same, I will observe that IF he was, in fact, more or less the first mainstream journalist outside of India to criticize Mother T, that may explain why he gets the credit.
That is not a GOOD thing, it is just a possible explanation.
I personally had never seen any criticism of Mother T by any emmessemm figure in the western world prior to Hitchens. OTOH, there are universes full of things I’ve never seen.
morzer
@Mnemosyne:
No, I just dislike lazy accusations of plagiarism being thrown around without any sort of evidence, by self-righteous buffoons on blogs. Shallow people tend to irritate me, and I respond by using logic and evidence to denounce them, at which point they pout and whine and play victim. At which point, I laugh at the poor creatures and leave them to wallow in their swinish ignorance.
And, since you mention Chatterjee, I was the first person on this thread to mention his name, you pathetic half-wit. But doubtless your failure to acknowledge that means that plagiarism is fine and dandy, so long as you are the one doing it. I even cited a review of the book, which is a damn sight more than your empty little mind came up with.
Delia
@Carol:
While these churches are in communion with the Anglican Church, my impression is that these churches may be more of a “Catholic” style kind of church when it comes to ritual and perhaps some of the doctrine and other practices and the language.
The Anglican, Catholic, and mainstream Lutheran churches all have a fairly similar liturgy. It’s historically based, not simply a matter of style. Anglicans consider themselves to be a sort of mid-point theologically between Catholics and Protestants. Though frankly, those are debates that really belong to an earlier era.
I don’t know about the class thing. I know in earlier generations Episcopalians had a reputation as an upper class church. It’s not true where I live.
aimai
I don’t really understand this argument at all–I mean this thread argument. Chatterjee’s book seems to confirm Hitchens in most details and Chatterjee himself doesn’t seem to have seen himself as in competition with, or correcting, Hitchens basic point which is that Mother Teresa exaggerated her work, took money under false pretenses from criminals, failed to deliver needed services to the poor, engaged in abusive prosletization, and hypocritically accepted top notch medical care and palliative care for herself while denying it to her patients/clients on the grounds that suffering is good–for some.
If people don’t like Hitchens, and I don’t, so what? The real issue is the truth or falsity of the assertions. He’s still right about Mother Teresa and denying that on the grounds that Hitchens is some maniacal super liar is like denying that he has his name in the phonebook because you don’t like what he’s written on some other subject.
The other stuff, the accusation that he “wasn’t the first” or whatever is just childish. Many people write and research on many topics. Its totally irrelevant who was first, or more popular, in a given public realm.
aimai
Mnemosyne
@morzer:
That’s weird, because when I look back at the thread, I posted two links about Chatterjee’s to your single link, including some of Chatterjee’s own words about Hitchens. I guess what you don’t like is people actually Googling the names you provide to see what those people think rather than relying on your claims about what they think.
Chatterjee seems to think that Hitchens’ sensationalism has harmed Chatterjee’s carefully documented case against Mother Teresa. You can argue with him if you think he’s wrong, but arguing with me because you think that Chatterjee is wrong seems a bit silly.
eemom
@morzer:
“what matters”?? Sir, need I remind you that are on a BLOG thread??
What mattered an hour or so ago is ancient history at this point.
Those of us who believe that MT’s hypocrisy are “what matters,” previously confronted only with the feeble opposition of Chris D’s “He’s an asshole, therefore it doesn’t matter if he’s right,” enjoyed the rhetorical high ground THEN……but we have since been overtaken by Mnem’s more sophisticated attack on Hitchens’ journalistic integrity…..and DougJ’s explosive revelation that he doesn’t trust anti-religion idealogues……so basically the question of “what matters” is wide open at this point.
Xecky Gilchrist
Down with this sort of thing!
Careful now.
shortstop
I don’t really understand this argument at all—I mean this thread argument.
I think all you really need to know is that some people have a large investment in making this about Hitchens’s sins rather than about Teresa’s. And, as a bonus, that they’re not particularly good at redirection.
shortstop
@Nutella: You’re right about ownership of assets determining the Deciderer, but the Anglican Communion is really not centrally organized in the way that the RC church is. The archbishop of Canterbury, the titular head of the church (though in a perfectly fallible way ;)) has no jurisdiction over anything but the Church of England, for example.
Also, even though the Episcopal Church of the United States of America is its own “sovereignty,” the presiding bishop here in the U.S. has limited direct authority over the various dioceses. This is true to varying extents in other churches within the Anglican Communion. So it’s more correct to call the AC an affiliated group of individual churches than a centrally organized institution.
Mnemosyne
@aimai:
My main point is that citing Hitchens as an expert on this subject does more harm than good because he is a documented liar who loves to make inflammatory claims, so you’re going to spend more time trying to prove that he’s not lying this time than you are in actually looking at his claims. As soon as they hear the name “Hitchens,” most people will automatically assume that what he’s saying is exaggerated and overblown and can be safely ignored.
Chris Dowd
@morzer:
No- I have never written something I don’t believe. I haven’t parsed off whole sale lies that contributed to the deaths of Hundreds of thousands- if not millions of people. I haven’t spread obscene hatred for entire groups of people on the Television and in print in magazines and newspapers with huge circulations. I haven’t been a water carrier for murderers and potentates of power while I supped off their tables and drank their whiskey. I haven’t been a whore for empire.
The man is a fucking liar. Using him to besmirch- don’t care who the are- anybody is a fucking atrocity.
Yes. Guilty. I don’t like him. And I find it OBSCENE to point to anything this man has written on anything as being trustworthy or something that should be held up as legitimate.
I don’t cite David Duke when I talk about Israel even if he might- maybe- be right about something by the luck of the draw. And I find offensive that this man is cited as a trustworthy authority on anything.
He’s a repellent creature.
eemom
@Mnemosyne:
here is where I respectfully take issue.
I really can’t claim to know much about Hitchens, other than (1) he was an Iraq warmonger, (2) at least prior to being diagnosed with cancer, he was in fact a hard-drinking egomaniacal asshole, and (3) he consented to being water-boarded.
But when I read his piece about Mother T, I was floored, both because (1) it was totally convincing, and (2) I was appalled at the extent to which so many people, myself included, had never even THOUGHT to question the “Mother Theresa is a Saint” CW.
Because it was readily obvious that nothing Hitchens was saying about her was a lie or exaggeration of any kind, his reputation as warmonger, asshole, etc. etc. simply weren’t relevant to my reaction.
Chris Dowd
@Mnemosyne:
Bingo. If your aim is too enlighten people about the negative effects of Mother Teresa’s mission and works? You couldn’t do your arguments more disservice than pointing to Chris Hitchens work on that subject. He discredited himself. Doesn’t matter if his work on that subject is 100 percent correct. He’s a liar. A liar who abetted the murder of many many people. He is easily dismissed.
aimai
@Chris Dowd:
I think that argument is just absurd. You might just as rightly make the argument that some of Hitchens sins are redeemed by one piece of careful work. Or that the work was done before he got a brain tumor or became a right winger or whatever. I think its as wrong to throw around globalizing terms like “liar” as it is to reduce people to “racist” or “sexist.” People are complicated–being a braggart isn’t the same as being a plagiarist, being an asshole and making shitty political decisions isn’t the same as lying about Mother Teresa.
I don’t see that this discussion has anything to do with Hitchens, despite your insistence that it does. It also doesn’t have anything to do with convincing you of one thing or another. Hitchens book, regardless or concurrent work on the subject (something which happens all the time in any breaking field in the sciences and any story in the journalistic field) broke important ground because it broached the subject on an international stage in a way that couldn’t be ignored.
I’m not saying this to defend Hitchens, or to honor him. Its just a fact. Since I think what Mother Teresa was doing was an international moral scandal I think that the work of exposing her was worth doing–even if Hitchens was kicking puppies or would later turn out to have the horrendous bad judgement to back the Iraq war and diminish torture.
aimai
MattR
@Chris Dowd: And if your aim was to enlighten people about the negative effects of Christopher Hitchens’s writings? You couldn’t do your argument more disservice than starting it with “Yeah- well- Mother Teresa didn’t spend her life inside a martini glass with a pack of Marly’s at the elbow like Chris Hitchens.” It discredits you and makes you easily dismissed.
Chris Dowd
@aimai:
Well then we disagree. People who pen pro torture diatribes are not using “bad judgment”. They are evil. Period.
Chris Hitchens was a conscious game playing word parsing- pen for sale- drunken liar. He knew what he was doing. Have you read some of the shit he wrote in the last ten years?
Bad judgment? Geesus fucking christ.
You assign good faith to monsters who support torture in ANY fashion? That it is just a “disagreement” that people of good faith can have? Uh no. No.
Is Chuck Krauthammer also someone you are going to believe on a lot of things? What about Himmler? Anything he write that you would hold up as something trustworthy? Groundbreaking? Good Lord.
Again- this isn’t about Mother Teresa. It is directly about Chris Hitchens. And yeah- I call people who lie- liars. I’m just fucked up like that I guess.
Chris Dowd
@MattR:
Indeed- I would come to the defense of the Devil himself if Chris Hitchens wrote a diatribe against him.
eemom
what, exactly, has Hitchens lied about? Is the accusation that he’s a liar based on anything other than his regurgitating the lies that got us into the Iraq war?
Because many, many others did that, and I’ve never heard it cited as a permanent disqualification of their opinion on ANY subject.
What about the waterboarding thing? Seems to me he deserves a bit of credit for that. Has he BEEN a torture apologist after that?
aimai
@Chris Dowd:
Well, that makes you just as much of a contrarian as Hitchens so its not a really great example of moral purity. Come to the defense of people who are worth defending. Don’t waste your time on an imaginary spite fest with someone who doesn’t know you are alive.
More to the point: time is what keeps everything from happening all at once. The Mother Teresa book was published in 1997. Hitchens, like a lot of people, went off the rails after 9/11. I didn’t. Not too many people I knew did. But a dear friend, a sweet guy, a philosopher and a New Yorker that I knew did. He came back to his senses afterwards but for a while he was very gung ho on bombing Iraq. Some people never recovered from that shock. Some people are natural gadflies and assholes and contrarians. So what? That doesn’t mean that at some point they can’t have done an honest days work.
Hitchens has cancer and is going to die, very horribly, and in some pain. Perhaps he deserves it for supporting the Iraq war. But to quote the good book–and by that I mean Tolkein:
aimai
Chris Dowd
Forget it. He’s a truth teller who just made mistakes- like Bush- and Rummy. No one lied about anything- no one knew what they were doing- no one if responsible for anything- everyone was a good faith actor.
No wonder “progressives” are totally fucking useless. You still cling to this childish fucking Jon Stewart like belief that the people who brought us these wars did so in good faith- and that our government is fundamentally decent. Well no- that isn’t the case. There were no “good intentions” in going to Iraq. There were no good intentions in going into Afghanistan.
Contemptible- anemic- repulsive. Yeah – Chris Hitchens rips off some Indian writers about Mother Teresa 20 years ago that tickles your funny bone because it smacks around conservative Catholics and Christians whom you hate- so you come to this monster’s aid? Fuck you. Ok? Fuck off.
Fucking useless.
Chris Dowd
@aimai:
Blow me.
eemom
@Chris Dowd:
None of that is even remotely close to a fair representation of what I or the others have said.
You’re either deeply stupid or intellectually dishonest.
Perhaps you SHOULD stick with the Vatican in all its glorious black and white denial of reality. It’s a good fit for you.
shortstop
Chris, I mean this in the nicest possible way: Your very first criticism of Hitchens — the thing you found most objectionable about him — had to do with him being a drunk smoker, and most of your painfully repetitious and wildly shallow posts since then have emphasized his addictions. You wouldn’t by chance have spent this day in the whiskey bottle yourself, would you? ‘Cause you write like someone who’s dead drunk…or someone who’s really, really emotionally unstable. Which?
zuzu (not that one, the other one)
Personally, I disregard everything Chris Dowd has to say because of his egregious abuse of the poor, defenseless hyphen.
SmallAxe
@aimai:
This… lived in Rome and as an ex Catholic felt the same way when I saw the Vatican, so much wealth in one place and they preside over so many poor such a harsh juxtaposition but hey… big guy can wear Prada shoes so..
drkrick
Not exactly a recent development. It started around the time that Constantine and his successors decided this Christianity thing could be a useful tool to reinforce their control of the Roman Empire.
trixie larue
Whosoever(?) made the freaking decision that the “Church” was to be run only by men? I’d like to see a historical, biblical reference on that, please, if anyone can find such stupidity.
I left religion behind because it was acting as the opposite of saving people from ruination (I don’t mean religion, they are supposed to intervene in a non-judgemental way, save the people! for chrissakes!)
My mother was a true example of living a simple life. After my father died, she devoted what time she could to good works – she didn’t have money, so she actually had to do good works. She was exemplary; she was not recognized as such by the priest at her funeral mass because her works were mostly outside the realm of good works – like, liberation theology (yeah, that’s definitely Satan’s work, we don’t want to empower people against their gov’t).
What’s the shock about being priest-ridden? Let some women in; you’d be surprised at the good things they would try to do.
DougJ®
I see what you all mean about Hitchens probably being right here, but at the same time, is it so wrong to see him as a counterindicator (someone who is normally wrong and if right, by accident) in general?
Emma
I have no brief for Chris, first time I’ve heard of him, but when someone mentioned Hitchens my mind screeched to a halt and veered left. After his post 9/11 behavior nothing he says carries water with me. But then, I had read the Indian sources before Hitchens’ book came out.
Although I’d like to point out how Eurocentric the whole thing is. Hitchens as the hero who spoke truth to power while all the Indian writers who had been taking issue with Mother Teresa were… invisible?
Exurban Mom
“The interests of church officials “were the maintenance of secrecy, the avoidance of scandal, the protection of the reputation of the church and the preservation of its assets,” the report concluded. “All other considerations, including the welfare of children and justice for victims, were subordinated to these priorities.””–from the NY Times article.
This is why I will never again join a Catholic church, nor subject my child to it in any way.
master c
Can we leave Hitchens?
The Catholic church is a huge bummer for me. The place I loved turns out to be hugely a hater of humanity. Sucks. Cant decide if any other church deserves my attention, and devotion or if they all suck.
hamletta
I hate to be a dick, but I sure am glad I grew up Lutheran.
I’ve seen the pain on my neighbor’s face when I asked her if she wanted to maybe check out my church. She didn’t want anything to do with no church no how.
I don’t know how I’d cope with the idea that the hierarchy swept such atrocities under the rug.
Episcopalian and Lutheran churches are governed by structures that include the laity. They have their own problems, of course.
But there’s probably a place near you where you can get your high church on without supporting that particular structure. And it’s probably not as vile as you were told.
VATICAN RAG
Tom Lehrer songs are always relevant somehow..
“Vatican Rag”: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YcGRNmkB00
trixie larue
The only thing churches are good for is ceremonies – weddings,funerals; the others are not really that important – baptism, communion, confirmation.
Otherwise, enjoy life outside of all that realm. There is plenty to enjoy without interference from people who have no clue what ordinary life is like.
eemom
@hamletta:
well, if we’re gonna do some church-pimping here, lemme put in a good word for the Eastern Orthodox. We have all the stuff people like about Catholicism — mystic rituals, communion, infant baptism, ornate church interiors, incense, services in languages nobody understands…..and none of the bad stuff.
No pope, no pedophiles — our priests get married! — divorce cool, b/c cool, abortion, AFAIK, not fussed about.
Best of all, we’re descended from folks who had the good sense to see where the Catholic Church was headed 1,000 years ago, and got the hell out — technically referred to as “the schism,” I believe.
master c
cool, thanks for the tip….hamletta.
matoko_chan
meh….im gobsmacked…not!
when has the catholic church ever been more about the sheep than the shepherds?
not in my slice of spacetime.
@eemom:
yes, because Protestant anti-intellectualism, racism, and chattel-slavery of women and children is so much better.
eemom
@matoko_chan:
Eastern Orthodox are not Protestants, asshole.
You really are an ignoramus, aren’t you?
matoko_chan
@eemom: nah ima troll.
and idc.
matoko_chan
and actually, Mother Church regards any schism as “protestants”. even the anglicans, at least until they got sukkered back in.
the anti-intellectual tradition of protestantism gets an 11++ on the cudlip Outrage-o-meter.
i nevah miss a chance to mention it.
:)
master c
Oh shit, I had a philosophy class in college, I know the real answer.
someofparts
If the Church works with secular leaders like ours to abolish birth control and public education, the generations born afterward may turn to the church for lack of alternatives much as their ancestors did in the last anglo dark ages.
Draylon Hogg
Tony Blair converted to Roman Catholicicism.
How many Our Fathers and Hail Mary’s will it take to absolve him of his sins?
Ken
As a fully-lapsed Catholic, I am of the opinion (which I think has been expressed above) that the best thing a devout Catholic can do is turn inward and work for the betterment of his local parish. Not all or even most priests I have met have been of the totalitarian, everything is black-or-white mold. It was a priest who advised my mom to get a divorce, it was a priest who advised me to ‘date around’ and not settle, it was a priest who told me that telling the truth at all times was not necessarily the best thing, etc.
You can forget about Rome. They are too divorced from reality to do anything but double-down. But if you can stay local and ignore the ridiculous things that come out of Italy, you can probably make things work in your own little corner of the world.
Less Popular Tim
@JPL:
Mom, is that you?
Less Popular Tim