There’s a blog that some of you may have heard about, called The League of Ordinary Gentlemen. I can’t say that I agree with everything posted there, but I do find it worth reading. I wanted to make sure that everyone who reads and comments on Balloon Juice is reminded of this blog, and I wanted to call out the work of E.D. Kain, whose work you may have noticed here as well. Right now, he’s working through some thoughts on the labor movement. I don’t agree with everything E.D. says, but he’s honest and thoughtful, and he occasionally changes his mind, which is a rare trait.
Consider this an open thread.
E.D. Kain
Thanks mistermix. Any thoughts people have on the questions I pose about organized labor would be much appreciated. I’ve come to the belief that we really need a resurgence of union membership in this country if we’re going to save the middle class – but I’m not sure how to get there.
Maude
Could you put more posts on the side thingy? There are only a few and it’s easier to go to a post if it is listed there.
When I make sense, it will be a good day.
mistermix a.k.a. mastermix
@Maude: I set it to 10. How’s that?
E.D. Kain
Also, there sure are a lot of invest in gold ads up in this joint right now. This must be the price one pays for mentioning Glenn Beck…
Gin & Tonic
Japan is suspending its annual whale hunt, reportedly at least in part due to the ongoing efforts of the Sea Shepherd group. “Direct action”, folks.
Ija
Meh, LOOG is too self-congratulatory for my taste. Too much “cleverest grad student” vibe on the site.
Maude
@mistermix a.k.a. mastermix:
Thank you so much.
@E.D. Kain:
I’ll read what you posted. I just wanted to say that I think the unions got into trouble with the general public when there was corruption.
In NJ, there are still Jimmy Hoffa jokes.
btw, a longish time ago, the head of the carpenter’s union disappeared in NY. A few months ago, they found his what was left of his body. At the time he vanished, it was figured that he was murdered.
Violet
I think this post from Gin and Tacos fits in nicely with this discussion. Can the US still compete? The Canard:
Can unions solve this problem?
JGabriel
This exchange from the LOG’s Labor 2.0 thread is pretty great:
.
Mnemosyne
I guess mistermix didn’t get his daily allowance of m_c just yet.
Maude
@Violet:
This ties into the AFL/CIO wanting to take unions to an international level. The disparity in wages is what hurts the American worker. If other countries can no longer sweat their labor on a broad basis, greedy companies who use the US as a benefit to themselves and foreign labor for profit will have a problem.
The Republicans would fight this tooth and nail.
I’m leaving out the labor problems in the US or we will be here forever.
E.D. Kain
@Violet: if they can’t or if policies friendly to unionization can’t than I don’t know what can.
Joey Maloney
New tag: “matoko_chan roach motel”
E.D. Kain
@Maude: corruption is part of it, but also union busting and legal efforts to quash labor and help big business.
JGabriel
@E.D. Kain:
I’m getting Domino’s Pizza and Holland America Line Cruise Ships.
I did order pizza online from a local pizzeria last week, so I guess that explains the Domino’s ad. I’m not sure where the Holland Cruise Line is coming from, though I suspect it’s from this Balloon-Juice thread on eating Dutch Babies.
.
mistermix a.k.a. mastermix
@E.D. Kain: Making the labor movement global can help. When you have places like Foxconn, where iPhones are made, where workers throw themselves out the window rather than work another day, you have the opportunity for a global movement of worker organization and empowerment. I wonder what the big US unions are doing there?
(edited: as @Maude said upthread, I guess the AFL-CIO is on it)
giltay
Anyone know if there’s some sort of twit filter I can get to hide certain people’s posts? I was reading a thread down the page, and someone who will not be named was totally derailing it. I tried not reading them, but it’s distracting when half the posts are off-topic rants or troll-feeding replies to them.
I Firefox, so a plugin or Greasemonkey script would be fine.
mistermix a.k.a. mastermix
@giltay: Our own Cleek has built a greasemonkey script for it, available here:
http://ok-cleek.com/blogs/?p=11235
And MikeJ has built a Chrome extension here:
http://sites.google.com/site/piefilterlovers/
MikeJ
Every time outsourcing is talked about, some bright boy will pipe up and say that while yes, it does cause temporary problems for some individuals, over all it is good for society since we all share lower prices.
Perhaps we should stop accepting this as fact and ask for more numbers to back it up.
Mike E
@Gin & Tonic: That makes my day. If only they can similarly spoil Dick Cheney’s annual puppy hunt
Xantar
I’m going to pull a pre-emptive matoko_chan.
E.D. Kain is responsible for the terrors of civil rights and human rights abuses which you would know if you clearly read what I wrote instead of just responding to me with your usual stupid head blather the way you did when I talked about the bell curve shut up and actually read what I said no try it again CUDLIP!
Sorry. I guess I suck at matoko_chan impressions. But you know she’s coming. She’s like a second degree Voldemort: mention E.D. Kain’s name and she will hear it and come running.
Maude
@E.D. Kain:
Good point.
I was thinking about the PR gift that union corruption gave Big Business. They have been successful at using this against organized labor.
This may be the time when labor starts to get some respect. The Wall Streeters lost any respect they had and perhaps the pendulum will swing a bit.
I’ve worked ‘gotta pay the rent’ jobs and it would have been so much better to have a union. Cheap bastards was my repetitive refrain.
giltay
@mistermix a.k.a. mastermix: Brilliant, thanks.
Thanks, cleek. I needed that.
Looks like that’s the wrong link, though. I got it here, instead.
arguingwithsignposts
@Mnemosyne: Yes, I think he needs to say her name three times for her to appear.
arguingwithsignposts
@Xantar: too many capital letters, cudlip WEC apologist for the douthat-salam stratification, wallah!
Maude
@giltay:
Go to cleek’s site. I think he has one.
@mistermix a.k.a. mastermix:
I do know about US unions and women. Oh, now, there’s a long story.
Citizen_X
@Violet: That’s a great piece. This bears quoting:
It’s too un-humorously true to be called inappropriate.
Morbo
Excellent. Embrace the troll within. Only then will the tentacle women love you.
debit
@giltay: You may want the one from the first link, as the original did not work with the new site rebuild.
Dennis SGMM
@MikeJ:
Seems to me that the real costs of cheaper consumer goods have been completely overlooked in the debate. How much does that cheaper whateveritis actually cost when you add in the cost to us all of the unemployment/underemployment and wage stagnation that are, in part, the result of off shoring? Has any economist actually dealt with this question or have the supporters of globalization actually convinced themselves (And us) that there is such a thing as a free lunch?
fasteddie9318
@E.D. Kain: Taft-Hartley stuck the knife in organized labor’s gut and “free” trade gave it a twist. The policies will have to change before organized labor even has a chance to act, and there’s no way in hell that the bag men funding our electoral process will ever allow those policies to change.
The public needs to wake up, educate itself, and demand a change. If the wealthy elite and our corporate overlords have “given up” on America, as we’re being told increasingly, then America needs to return the favor. Don’t want to pay taxes here? Take your business someplace else. Don’t want to employ American workers? Enjoy a nice 35% tariff on whatever you try to import and sell here. Stop letting multi-national corporations enjoy the benefits of America without absorbing one ounce of the obligations that enable us to maintain those benefits. Getting out of a “free” trade regime that treats America as a dumping ground for foreign-made garbage while every other country/trade bloc around the world does what it can to exclude American products from its marketplace should be a no-brainer, but every time the subject is brought up some politician will prattle about how we’re doing the right thing for the global economy. Screw the global economy. We elect these clowns to worry about the American economy. Its their corporate masters who direct their focus elsewhere. Hell, we can’t even get a Buy American provision put into our own government’s procurement processes; if the fucking feds won’t buy domestic, how can we expect anything to improve?
giltay
@debit: The old one is working fine so far. I get a 404 for the new one.
Maude
@Dennis SGMM:
On Bloomberg radio, they had a guest and he was asked what would start the econmy rolling so that companies would hire etc.
He said that if a company makes a product people want, that would be a start.
Quality has a lot to be said for it. People will buy well made products.
Dave
The reason unions got in trouble is that Republicans whacked the rest of the middle and working class, took away all the things we took for granted like job security, decent pay and reliable health care, and then made the unions look like they were cleaning up. When they are actually the last bastion of what all of us used to have. Unions and the benefits their workers have are a threat to the concentration of wealth in the hands of a few. And God forbid the rest of us remember that. So the unions have to go.
Paul in KY
IMO, the poison pill for unions was when sympathy strikes were outlawed here in US. I was reading ‘The Strange Death of Liberal England’ recently (great book, BTW) and the unions were only able to get meaningful concessions when the various unions would all gang up & go on a ‘general strike’.
Paul in KY
@arguingwithsignposts: That one was better ;-)
ThresherK
@Maude: “He said that if a company makes a product people want, that would be a start.”
1) Are we that out of the woods w.r.t. demand yet?
2) It never gets old: Making a product people want means not expecting the blue-collar, often union, laborers to make up for design defects. Or, why do those (stereotypical adjetive of your choice) laborers in Mexico build such decent vehicles for Nissan plants but such claptrap ones for Chrysler?
(PS I’m still pissed at Bloomberg Radio for taking away the old WNEW-AM in New York, so you may add a grain of salt to my comments.)
Fuck U III: The Duck Fucks Back
When is the corruption in the private sector going to lead to a decline in it?
E.D. Kain
@fasteddie9318: Pretty much. Political will is the problem now. The Democratic party has really dropped the ball here. Repeal of Taft Hartley would be huge, but more is needed. Not sure we can get around tariffs at this point either. That may be the only way.
Xenos
@Mnemosyne:
What is it called when you troll your own trolls?
Citizen_X
@Morbo: Awesome! A truly inventive video.
So why are all the folk-metal bands–Finntroll, Korpiklaani, Turisas–Finnish? Is is something in the water there?
suzanne
@Xantar:
Oh, man, it’s so true. But I love her nonetheless. She’s like an annoying-ass poodle that yaps incessantly (and occasionally defiles your pant leg), but makes you smile regardless. I hope she never goes away, ’cause then I’d lose a major source of free entertainment.
I do think, though, that someone who’s a better programmer than me could create a wonderful matoko_chan random comment generator. Put in a few key words and phrases, like “memetic selection for IQ” and “christians believe their faith compels them to proselytize” and “suxxorz”, toss them like a salad, and WALLAH! ;)
burnspbesq
@E.D. Kain:
My personal history may be a somewhat useful data point re white-collar workers’ attitudes toward unionization.
In the mid-1990s I worked for the Office of Chief Counsel of the IRS. The National Treasury Employees Union, which is one of the strongest public-employee unions there is, tried to organize Counsel and Appeals.
Organizing Appeals was easy; most Appeals Officers had been represented by NTEU when they were in field exam earlier in their careers.
Organizing Counsel proved to be much more difficult. Substantially all Counsel employees are lawyers, who tend to believe strongly in their own ability to take care of themselves. I think that for knowledge workers, there is a stigma associated with union membership, because it is an admission that you can’t take care of yourself.
NTEU has no ability to bargain on salaries or benefits, which are set by Congress. So it comes down to bargaining over working conditions and grievance procedures, and nobody I knew thought that was a sufficiently big deal to be worth paying for.
Lawyers are, obviously, much different than call-center workers, IT techs, hotel and restaurant workers, etc. But I am profoundly skeptical about the chances of successfully organizing knowledge workers, because the unions haven’t yet come up with a compelling sales proposition.
les
To get back to unions, get rid of “right to work.” Outsourcing happened in-country first–check out the states with the worst poverty, education, etc. and you’ll find the strongest commitment to the “freedom” to reject unions along with bright shiny new auto plants, etc. Meanwhile, blue states with highly unionized work forces continue to export jobs and their federal tax dollars to those bastions of freedom and confederate spirit.
Kirk Spencer
@Maude: No, disagree when unions “got in trouble”.
Unions got in trouble when they sat back thinking they’d won even though the other side was still fighting.
There was, and is, corruption at other times. The other side also has corruption. You deal with it separately.
Unions took a major negative shot when the anti-unionists got a poison pill included in the NRLA — the one that said workers where a union bargains for wages and benefits gets the wages and benefits even if they’re not union members.
Even so they did well, mainly because they still forced the gains that everyone wanted.
The thing is, because of additional restrictions that have been added over the past few decades plus failure of the NLRB to pursue wrongdoing — and loss of teeth for when they do find wrongdoing — unions have had less effect.
I don’t have a fix. I have suggestions, but they’re all low-likelihood for passing. If I could do one and only one, however, I’d get the poison pill removed. A union can bargain with a company for its union members alone. What, you want those benefits too? Pay for it. TANSTAAFL.
Violet
@Citizen_X:
It really is a great piece. Someone here linked it when it was posted a few weeks ago. It’s stuck with me and I keep going back and re-reading it. It says so many things I’ve been thinking for a long time. There is no reason American workers are better than workers elsewhere. And we certainly aren’t cheaper. So where does that leave us?
@fasteddie9318:
Exactly. Well said. Hire Americans, work here, live here, sell here or pay the price for not doing so.
Maude
@ThresherK:
He was saying that it wasn’t up to the banks. He meant that good stuff sells. Start up companies that make a wanted product will succeed.
Apple is an example of this for the upper end buyer.
He wasn’t saying that cheap labor was a solution.
Maude
@Kirk Spencer:
The public perception of unions is what I was talking about.
Support for getting unions more involved with labor is not going to fly politically unless the public perception changes.
Reagan used the perception of union coruption to get people to think that unions were not good for that Shining City on The Hill.
Just say Jimmy Hoffa and the point is made.
burnspbesq
@ThresherK:
Design for manufacturability. SATSQ.
freelancer
@suzanne:
You forgot “substrate”, she loves that shit. Like moar dan enzymes.
Kirk Spencer
@Maude: Reagan.
I will never forgive Reagan for what he did to this nation. He sold Americans on the idea that their government was the enemy.
Yes, he was also a major factor in the downgrade of unions — despite having been a member and leader of a union that protected and supported and negotiated for him back when he was an actor.
WoodyNYC
@E.D. Kain:
Wanted to point out that in the author in this book
http://www.amazon.com/Mobsters-Unions-and-Feds-ebook/dp/B002WVGEFU/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1297879634&sr=8-2
makes the point that mafia infiltration in the unions was exacerbated by Hoover’s early hounding out of “commies” who were the good guys (of course) and he left the mobsters relatively alone.
(huh, can’t fix links in edit?)
13th Generation
@suzanne:
I agree, she’s an absolute loon, but I do find myself agreeing with her from time to time. (when I can make sense of what she’s trying to say)
And the M_C word salad generator idea is awesome.
Bubblegum Tate
Hey, mastermix, you got a nod from B-J regular reader Dan Savage. Kudos!
suzanne
@13th Generation: Oh, for sure. She’s crazy, and not as smart as she thinks she is, but she’s not stupid. But, oh, for the love of all that is holy and righteous, is she ever entertaining.
@freelancer: Aw yeah, good call. And “lawlz”. And “fetus-slaves”.
Sly
@Dennis SGMM:
Short answer: No, not really.
All the studies in the 1990s showed that the impact on low-skill wages would be minimal because most of the import surge from that period were in skill-intensive fields. It’s different now. For the past few years, countries that have been doing most of the “in-sourcing” have developed specialized low-skill labor niches.
The big problem, I think, is that most economists are focusing on macro-level analysis. The data is muddy when you try to look at everything. Micro-level stuff, or looking at the impact of outsourcing on certain industries, is more valuable but also more rare. Its not very interesting to people who use the quantity of journal citations as a barometer of success.
matoko_chan
welcome to the circle jerk.
mistermix and DougJ are isomorphic with Sully.
Mr. FETUS=SLAVE fapfapfap markets! ED Kain is our very own conor friedersdorf.
i too would like to reccommend a LoOG thread….this classic
apes discussing philosophyconservatives discussing science.Please note the uberpwnage of Master Troll DougJ, who actually set the whole thing up by axin the LoOgies two questions.
it was exquisite.
like i said to DougJ, mistermix, “sane” conservative is an oxymoron.
if they were sane, they wouldnt be conservative anymore.
you might as well be hunting snipe.
:)
now mistermix and DougJ are running a full court press to rehabilitate EDK and the League.
are you sad for trolling them DougJ?
lawl.
you know what i think….its what Maya says.
when someone shows you who they are…..believe them.
the first time.
matoko_chan
@13th Generation: i think suzanne cant build it tho…the balloon juice commentariat has a uniform decade lag in culturespeak.
you’d have to hire outside help for film, music, and geek culture tagging.
matoko_chan
@suzanne:
wallah..are you confusing me with EDK?
he is the go-to guy for FETUS=SLAVE.
he has never retracted it.
@freelancer: you forgot desu…..as in freelancer has no desu.
;)
matoko_chan
and that is, quite simply, a lie.
he banned me for telling the truth.
matoko_chan
when has he changed his mind?
on anything of substance that is.
and why does it take mistermix and DougJ and half the commentariat to defend EDK from one single nonfrontpager girl?
cant he defend himself?
what a fucking pussy.
matoko_chan
when has he changed his mind?
on anything of substance that is.
and why does it take mistermix and DougJ and half the commentariat to defend EDK from one single nonfrontpager girl?
cant he defend himself?
matoko_chan
you know…..i dropped a safe on EDK. i dont read him, i dont even see his posts.
(ok, i took a lil peek to see how butthurt he was over DougJ trollin his site).
but now mistermix and DougJ are spreading his foul conservative drench all over the front page on their posts.
okfine.
but dont you guys pretend for a heartbeat that you are better than Sully.
you’re just the same.
LoOG is just another psuedo-libertarian wankfest…fapfapfap markets!
read at your own risk.
but wear a spatter cloth so you dont get that nasty conservative jism all over you.
Stillwater
@E.D. Kain: I wrote a post at LOOG saying the same thing in longer form, but really, unions are a secondary consideration. The primary focus should be on constricting the flow of jobs overseas via capital flight. And that means protectionism: tariffs on repatriating goods, services and profits. Only then will capital flight be constrained, which will result in an increased labor market for all workers (particularly those in sectors effected by the tariffs). Additionally, increasing revenue from tariffs acts as a balance to income (and other) taxes.
Win, win, win!
Stillwater
@matoko_chan: LoOG is just another psuedo-libertarian wankfest…fapfapfap markets!
Lots of smart, very liberal people comment there. The FPers are actually pretty moderate even as they trend towards libertarian-uber-alles. And EDK has made some pretty radical steps towards enconsing himself in the reality-based policy world.
FuzzyWuzzy
@Violet: If unions cannot solve the problem, mobs of starving, well-armed and violent unemployed people certainly will. I suspect it will be the Tea Party and militia types, too, once they figure out who stiffed them.
matoko_chan
@Stillwater:
name ONE.
just ONE “radical steps.”
he has never backed down from his FETUS=SLAVE eumeme.
his position on that is FETUS=SLAVE is a REASONABLE view for someone to hold.
it is NOT.
he continues to assert that there are “good” conservative ideas, while NEVER giving an example.
there are no “good” ideas left in conservatism.
it is a failed, anti-empirical philosophy that has nearly destroyed our country.
And the people at LoOG are….like all conservatives…and they are all conservatives, whether they call themselves libertarians or liberaltarians or classic liberals…..are either stupid or dishonest.
Their PURPOSE is to religiously avoid educating their base, and to give cover to the base to believe stupid, wrong, bad, counterfactual and distructive memes cloaked as a difference of opinion IN ORDER TO KEEP WINNING.
Call them out name by name ill tell you if they are stupid or dishonest.
EDK is dishonest.
And he banned me for calling him on it. i have the emails.
i doubt Cole will let me post them.
matoko_chan
@Stillwater: and all day Cole and Dennis toil trying to get the truth out, and yet BJ supports that dishonest fucker coming in here and faking reasonableness. For fifty years conservative leaders have iQbaited and racebaited their base to WIN. Now EDK and Conor and Douthat and McMegan can see the hammergun of the demographic timer at the end of the conveyor belt. But what do they do? the cultural elite and the intellectual elite have left the building. they can’t turn off the racism that is ingrained in their base…Dennis sees that. Cole sees they cant turn off the stupid.
so they come here or to the dish or pal around with TNC to try to get our side to help educate their base…because if they try that tiger is going to whirl around and eat them right out of the saddle.
well, fuck off EDK.
you baked this cake, and and i hope you choke.
conservatism is headed for the dustbin of history where it belongs.
and the demographic timer goes tick….. tick…….. tick
matoko_chan
i guess you consider calling out Levin and Beck “radical steps”.
wallah its the same thing as Palin. those assclowns are useful for cockteasing the base and handing out pitchforks and torches, but when it comes to the general, they are demographic poison. Palin and Huckabee can only win in the nodes of Distributed Jesusland.
Frum and Conor and EDK and the WHOLE of rightside soi-disant intelligentisia are trying to wean the base off the Limbaugh tit.
and they wanna use the left to doooo eeeet stealthy because the base will eat them alive if they catch them doing it.
matoko_chan
i dunno about chu all, but im not interested in throwing EDK a life line right naow. i think he comes clean or he goes down with his ship.
idc which.
Paul in KY
@matoko_chan: Wallah! You found the link for ‘Suzanne’, but derided my ‘search fu’!
Cudlip ;-)
matoko_chan
@Paul in KY: i expect more of you….semi-sapient. :)
she has a kid to look after.
ALL: be honest. DougJ TROLLED the League and they showed exactly who they are.
stop pretending that was a one-off.
they are either stupid or dishonest, clinging desperately to a failed paradigm in the name of divided government.
all men are created equal, but all genes and memes are not.