I’ve mentioned before that I am a world-class hypochondriac. If I have an ingrown hair, I think I have melanoma. Every sniffle is the black plague. As such, I’m also exceedingly cautious about some things. There are certain things I do not do. Skydiving comes to mind. Paragliding. Spelunking. Mountain-climbing. Deep-sea diving.
I’ve managed to find any number of ways to hurt/injure myself that I just don’t feel the need to add to my risk profile. I’ve proven it is possible to near kill yourself mopping or walking your dog, and some days I think my La-Z-Boy could use a seatbelt. My sister loves to do all those things and more- river-rafting, triathlons, skydiving, you name it. Me- not so much. I’m not going to go out drowning in the second leg of a triathlon or stuck in some sunken ship off the coast of nowhere with an empty air tank and a shark gun. No- If I drown, it will probably because I had two martinis and fell asleep in the hot tub.
But that is just me. So on one level, I understand what Anne Laurie was trying to say in this post about the four folks killed by Somali Pirates. On one level, you want to say “I don’t know anyone who has been killed by Somali Pirates, and that is because no one I know is dumb enough to go yachting in pirate-infested Somali waters!” On the other hand, it is still blaming the victim- sure, what they were doing is dangerous, but it was only dangerous because of the murderous cretins.
And I also disagree that our military and national pride is shamed because we had a warship dispatched to follow them after they were kidnapped. To me, that is a measure of national pride- “We are so badass we will send a warship you so much as screw with just a few of our citizens.” Likewise, let’s do a thought experiment. Let’s say four young women were walking around a bad part of town at night. Everyone knows it is a bad part of town, but they wanted to get from point a to point b, so they had to go through it. If those women were jumped, raped, and murdered, no one here would even think to blame them for walking through that part of town. No one would think to complain about the fact that we had to dispatch a bunch of police and rescue personnel.
So I understand what Anne Laurie was trying to say, but sometimes when you blog hard and fast, what comes off is not what you hoped it would and says something you really didn’t mean.
cleek
i agree.
with you, that is.
Silver
And had that warship not been dispatched those people are probably still alive.
Dick swinging has consequences and life isn’t an action movie.
BGinCHI
If you drown in the second leg of a triathlon, it would be on a bicycle.
That really, truly would be fucking pathetic.
And probably unprecedented.
joe from Lowell
Likewise, let’s do a thought experiment.
Someone would show up in the threads to claim that because the rapists were poor, expressing outrage at the rapes proves you hate the poor.
jrg
Horse shit.
Ash Can
Anne Laurie is an excellent writer, and I agree with her opinions 98% of the time. If I were to be driven away from this blog by the occasional clunker landing on the FP, I’d have left long ago.
Southern Beale
I’m sorry John but you are not a woman — we get blamed for our rapes ALL THE FUCKING TIME. (Not HERE on this blog, of course, but definitely by conservatives … )
“Why were you in that bad part of town serves you right!” “Why were you dressed like that serves you right?” “If you were raped by an acquaintance you must have led him on serves you right.”
This shit happens ALL THE FUCKING TIME and I’m a little teed off that you’d act so blithely oblivious to that. But again, you aren’t a woman so maybe you aren’t as sensitive to these things.
And as I pointed out on Anne Laurie’s post, right wingers are ALWAYS blaming the victim. If someone loses their home in an earthquake or California wildfire, SERVES THEM RIGHT why should taxpayer dollars go to rebuild their homes? If Greenpeace protestors need the Coast Guard to bail them out SERVES THEM RIGHT and ditto protestors mowed over by Israeli bulldozers on the Left Bank. It’s always our fault when we get into trouble but the right never has that to say when their people get into trouble and needs Uncle Sam to bail them out.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
FIFY
Suffern ACE
In the ideal world, regional governments, like say Iran or Saudi Arbia, would have navies interested in stopping piracy and rescuing captives and we would agree to do the same off our coasts. But navies are very expensive though, so I understand why we continue to have such a large one.
Michael
As the coming days pass, the wingnut message will be that since Christian fundamentalist filth shilling is a bete noir concept fer them goldurn libruls of the Kenyan soc!alist administration, that the missionaries weren’t saved. Among some of the message circuits in the jack and jill-off that is the conservotard punditocracy, it will be opined and spread that secret Muslim messages from within the White House encouraged the death of these folks.
Now, if I hadn’t come off the past 10 years with the attitude that the Romans sadly did not own enough angry lions, I might feel some sympathy – sadly, I no longer do…
YellowJournalism
Have you read the comments at your own blog, lately?
Edited for clarity
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
The differences being many, but amongst those is that there’d be some local police agency around to investigate the crimes, and to work towards preventing further crimes.
Go bounding off for some lawless territory, I don’t think you should expect the US Navy to send in the fleet.
Lavocat
They might not be “to blame” for their actions, but there is this little thing we attorneys like to call “assumption of risk”. Walking from Point A to Point B through a hellhole would be a huge assumption of risk.
And, yes, it is fairly close to “blaming the victim” because, hey, victims are often not blameless.
If you do stupid shit, then don’t be surprised when bad things happen to you.
jl
Off topic (not really)
I think John Marshall has been doing very good blogging on the WI TeaBagger power play:
The Argument in a Nutshell
Because of the Great Recession, tax revenues are down dramatically and public services costs have soared. Ergo, we have no choice but to permanently eliminate union rights for public employees. Because we’re out of money.
–Josh Marshall
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2011/02/the_argument_in_a_nutshell.php?ref=fpblg
Walker’s New Threat
Gov. Walker (R-WI) now says, deep six the union or I start laying people off next week.
The key point is that the unions in questions have already agreed to all the benefit cuts Walker has requested in his budget repair bill. So it’s only about collective bargaining. If the unions don’t agree to terminate their existence, he’ll start laying people off. Not even clear it’s the same people. But he’ll give them pink slips to force an end to collective bargaining.
–Josh Marshall
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2011/02/walkers_new_threat.php?ref=fpblg
TPM wants people to send in tips on corporate media celebs who spew bamboozlement on air (no shortage of that).
Sorry for the off topic, but I could think of nothing to say about Mr. Cole’s earnest post on a serious subject.
I didn’t know Cole was so inept that he feared he would drown himself while riding a bicycle. So, I dunno, I cannot think of anything to say.
Michael
@Silver:
If I was an illiterate, impoverished Somali pirate and went down belowdecks to find a bunch of cases of fairytale books while being shadowed by massive warships, I’d have been in a murderous rage, too.
eemom
I maintain, as I said on the other thread, that it is possible to express distaste for proselytizers, especially stupid ones, WITHOUT blaming them for what happened or saying they got what they deserved.
I don’t understand why that’s so hard to grasp.
I also dislike assholes who go mountain climbing under dangerous conditions and get trapped in avalanches, thereby forcing innocent people to risk their lives to save them — but I would never go so far as to say THEY deserved to die, either.
kdaug
Don’t have a strong opinion on this one, but I sense that some of the commentariat is reacting to the “proselyting evangelical” angle to it.
On the one hand, you shouldn’t re-wire 220-volt lines with the power still on. On the other, whether you believe in the FSM if/when you do is largely irrelevant. If you believed FSM would prevent you from being electrocuted, you’ve likely increased the probable risk of a bad outcome.
But I don’t think FSM belief can be held as a proximate cause.
Pococurante
So Anne Laurie decided to double down?
I really look forward to her future essays. No really.
TooManyJens
Gotta agree with the commenters above. I really wish that were true.
srv
@jrg:
% US citizens killed by, or allegedly about to be killed by pirates in presence of US warhsip: 100
% US citizens killed when warship not present: 0
trollhattan
@ John Cole
Good post.
I’ve been in some Intertubes dustups over the U.S. hikers being held hostage by Iran. There’s inevitably a noisy cohort available to say, “How dare they be so foolish as to expose America like this? They are getting what they deserve and BTW, ha-ha dumb Berkeley graduates!”
Everybody should stay home and watch Fox.
Michael
@jl:
Shorter definition still: Conservatism caused ruin in the finance markets, which ruined the pensions, and due to the downturn in tax revenues brought about by conservatism, we have to now triple down on everything conservatives want.
kerFuFFler
Just don’t let your hypochondria get this bad: my dad, a melanoma survivor, once called his doctor at 3:00am because he thought the dark splotches under his tongue (veins…) were the cancer returning.
As far as the pirates go, I don’t think that the Americans deserved to get attacked by pirates, but I also have some reservations about people doing extraordinarily dangerous things counting on the government to rescue them at tax payer expense. Sailing off the pirate ridden coast of Somalia seems like a risk venture not worthy of protection. Similarly, I find it annoying when mountain climbers count on tens of thousands of tax dollars being spent to rescue them when the weather turns bad or whatever.
Walking in a “dangerous part of town” just is NOT in the same category. We pay for law enforcement in an effort to prevent any area from being too dangerous to walk around. The results are far from perfect, but it is clearly a worthwhile public goal. Preventing tragedies from striking any American, anywhere on the globe seems pointless, not to mention ridiculously expensive.
Ash Can
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): Did the four people on the yacht ever give any indication that they expected direct and personal protection from the Navy? I never got that impression (although I’m willing to be corrected). As far as I’ve been able to tell so far, they took a rather foolhardy chance and unfortunately guessed wrong, no more and no less.
gnomedad
And yet you blog and have put Tunch on a diet.
I’m down with this. Mainly, this would have been a good time to make her point really, really clear.
Alex S.
This story leaves me with a blank mind and empty eyes.
Nellcote
If the evangelicals had been rescued by the Navy would they be billed for the service the way lost hikers are?
jl
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
“If the refs throw a flag on the Steelers, I think I’ve been poisoned with polonium.”
The NFL polonium poisoning plots are reserved for the Raiduhs and their fans. We’ve learned to deal with it.
Though, I am not really a Raiduhs fan anymore, since I only pay attention if they are likely to be involved in some hilarious and disgusting humiliation (Edit: so I can laugh at them). So, not sure if the protective magic has worn off, or not.
Edit: Cole knows that Tunch will kill him, more likely sooner than later, so I guess no point in worrying about it, might as well put the fatcat on a diet.
fasteddie9318
I really think her point was some kind of pre-emptive yellow journalism war machine-related snark, but if you write something about which it proves this difficult for this many people to figure out the meaning, the fault lies with you, not your readers. Also waiting until the war machine gets revved up might help avoid misinterpretation.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@trollhattan:
Bad comparison.
Thyose hikers very well might have been in Iraq when the Iranians nabbed ’em, or might not have been aware that they’d crossed the border. Any way it happened, those hikers had ample opportunity to learn the laws in the areas through which they were hiking. The yachters should have been aware that Somalia has no laws right now.
A Commenter at Balloon Juice (formerlyThe Grand Panjandrum)
Fucking Leg.
Why not a couple of UAV’s over Juarez to make sure no Americans are hurt doing stupid shit down there? In other words, I disagree to the extent that I don’t want our military trying to mitigate every stupid fucking American tourist on planet Earth. Our military shouldn’t be a bunch of babysitters. Besides, I wouldn’t want to sacrifice my child, who volunteered to serve in the military, because somebody decided to do something as breathtakingly stupid as sailing through pirate infested waters. Just call me picky about what I believe to be a worthy sacrifice of my child.
Tonybrown74
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
THIS!
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@jl:
Please convince Cole of this exclusivity. PLEASE.
jl
@Michael: Yes, thanks for the even shorter version.
There must be some pithy Daffy Duck quotes that are shorter, though.
The Moar You Know
I would agree with you only if the young women in question had:
1. No other possible route.
2. A desperate, life-threatening emergency that required them to go from point a to point b, and not stay at point a until they could arrange for alternative transportation.
Otherwise, they’re “asking for it”, plain and simple.
Sorry that the world isn’t all sunshine and bunnies, but Anne Laurie was dead to rights with her post, and those of you who are squalling with butthurt and armchair rage over her observation that reality is a brutal and shitty place that doesn’t forgive stupid mistakes are just full of shit.
Chuck Butcher
Unless I haven’t been paying attention lately, I thought that area was essentially a war zone – uniformed particaipants or not. I don’t have an answer for the area, but I also think it is pretty much stupidity to go unarmed puttering about where armed people are very actively operating. I’m sure deck guns would look odd on a yacht and maybe seem contradictory to the “mission” but given that lack – staying out isn’t over-prudence.
I take no pleasure in these folks’ fate but this isn’t walking through a tough neighborhood – this is a fucking war zone and yes – yacht = undefended money – that’s asking for it. This isn’t a skimpy dress – this is a meat suit in shark waters.
Shygetz
Fixed your analogy for ya…
Michael
@Nellcote:
Gladhanding Calvinist douchebags from sea to shining sea would be whimpering their praises of the psychotic sky being they worship, while flying their flags and loving the troops (particularly any troops who got hurt trying to save their dumb asses). They’d give out bonus prayers for any troops who killed any of the perpetrators, and would express their fervent wish for the incineration of every sould (innocent or not) of the village from which the piracy emanated.
They would then call disgusting fatbody Limbaugh and shout “megadittoes” at him, particularly as he rails against billing the fundamentalcases for the rescue.
Morbo
Indeed. Take nationality out of the situation. If Nation A’s citizens are captured by pirates then the navy of Nation A had better consider it its obligation to recover them. A navy that does not provide this service if it is capable of doing so, even if the citizens were “idiots,” is not very useful.
Chris
I think having our military in Somali waters is obscene, but not for the same reasons. Seems a while ago, certain corporations realized that Somalia had no government, QED its waters were fair game: hence a few corporations who decided to use the waters for waste dumping, and a few more who decided to use it for high-level fishing. The combination of the two drove tons of Somali fishermen with no other skills or ways to make a living out of business… and there’s your ready-made pirate recruits, which largely explains why piracy in Somali waters has skyrocketed in recent years.
The military deployment in Somalia is yet another case of the U.S. government having to clean up after the rich and powerful. I’m not angry that our troops are doing it – I’m angry that our troops have to do it because yet another corporate boardroom was chasing profit at all cost.
joe from Lowell
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
Huh?
Fighting piracy on the high seas has been a fundamental purpose of navies since the creation of the nation-state.
jayackroyd
What @Southern Beale: said.
trollhattan
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
Well, the comparison is spot-on from the standpoint of the “It was their fault and they put us at risk” accusations fielded against both sets of victims. I vigorously disagree in each case.
Pococurante
@eemom: Agreed. That’s what makes Laurie’s post and many of the comments here so objectionable.
I see no difference than last week’s attacks on Logan, who by the way was covering a celebration block party with a security detail. I don’t recall gang rape in Times Square when WW2 ended.
These folks were sailing through an area that up until then there had been no attacks. Apparently we supposed to treat entire hemispheres as no-go zones for missionaries?
Regardless of what anyone thinks of their belief systems evangelical missionaries actually do much of the heavy lifting helping the ultra-poor.
Self-satisfied keyboard jockies often can’t even be bothered to throw a few dollars to causes they claim to care a lot about. Or even contributing to local disaster efforts.
Perhaps Anne Laurie can start a blog explaining just what circumstances are acceptable before I next sally forth from my front door.
Again, it is correct to shame stupid statements regardless of partisan affiliation or the source. As far as I’m concerned Laurie is rowing the same slimy rowboat as Nir Rosen.
licensed to kill time
When I first heard about these folks getting taken by pirates, I thought Well, hell…sailing through dangerous waters is dangerous but I suppose they knew that and chose to take the risk.
When I heard they were sailing around with a boat full of bibles I thought that was upping their risk factor once again. But that was their choice.
When I heard they had chosen to split off from the group they were sailing with I wondered why, or if it had anything to do with their proselytizing (pure speculation on my part). Once again, their choice.
I don’t blame them for any of these choices and I have no idea if these choices somehow brought on what happened to them. It certainly increased their risk factors by an order of magnitude. Sometimes you roll the d.ice and you just lose. I guess they could have stayed home and stayed safe but I suppose they were doing something that meant a lot to them. I’m sorry that they died, the whole thing must have been terrifying, and I wonder if they regretted their choices in those last moments.
They could have been killed in a bus crash on the way to church, seems like I am always hearing about those kind of accidents. Life is inherently risky and shit happens. It’s sad.
joe from Lowell
@eemom:
When you start bringing up personal details of the victims, like their religion, while making your point about their actions leading towards their deaths, a reasonable person is going to read it as blaming them.
Quicksand
@jl:
How do you find the time to do anything else?
Barb (formerly Gex)
I’m not a big fan of Christians running around converting people. Or running to natural disaster areas and
savingkidnapping children. I guess I find analogy fail – women need to be able to move about society. I’m not so sure Christians need to be able to sail the world to convert people to Christianity in the same way.So I guess I’m torn on the issue. I dislike blaming the victim, but there’s a degree of going the extra mile to put themselves in harms way that bothers me. And I kind of dislike our military going around backing up missionaries as they make their conversions around the world. I think my view is definitely influenced by not being enamored with religion in general and with conversion of people in foreign lands by Christians in specific.
sukabi
If those women were jumped, raped, and murdered, no one here would even think to blame them for walking through that part of town. No one would think to complain about the fact that we had to dispatch a bunch of police and rescue personnel.
Ummmm John, did you read the comment threads attached to the Lara Logan rape posts??? there was a whole bunch of victim blaming going on there… granted most of that crap was by a couple of trolls, but there were some that were on the line of “she should have taken better precautions”….
JWL
I read it twice, and admittedly don’t understand the point Laurie was making.
Those people were American citizens, hijacked while sailing in international waters. End of story.
Why anyone would fuss because the U.S. navy attempted to come to their aid is something I find inexplicable.
Cris
To the shores of Tripoli!
joe from Lowell
@kerFuFFler:
…has nothing to do with the very specific, multi-national anti-piracy mission in the vicinity of the entrance to the Red Sea.
gnomedad
@Michael:
What’s with this soshulist “navy” stuff? Couldn’t they enlist maritime security entrepreneurs?
soonergrunt
Or she said EXACTLY what she meant, which is that the four people killed were trying to get attacked and/or captured so that the US could have a ‘gulf of Tonkin incident’ (and they ended up getting killed) but most people misunderstood her to be wrong and offensive on a whole different level.
Whether she was wrong and offensive intentionally or wrong and offensive unintentionally, or as seems to have happened here, wrong and offensive, but misunderstood to be wrong and offensive in a different way is utterly immaterial.
She was wrong and offensive.
Grownups apologize.
Tonybrown74
But they weren’t in the US where there would be some expectation of protection. Which is the point.
American Exceptionalism: not so exceptional.
kdaug
@Pococurante:
Personally, I wouldn’t mind a global no-go zone for missionaries.
But that’s just me.
Joel
I had the same thought.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@joe from Lowell:
Sounds good, joe, but the way in which we enforce those international laws, one at a time, has a pretty shitty cost/benefit ratio.
We had a chance to do something to stabilize the situation 20 years ago, which admittedly would have cost more lives had we attempted to finish the job, but the long term benefits would have been much more satisfactory (FYI, I lost a friend there, I know the human costs well). We didn’t have the political will to stay, though, because the law and order party, the one that will wave the bloody shirt today and tell us that the muslin soshulist isn’t doing enough to protect our people (read: their evangelical missionaries) overseas, didn’t want to be there twenty years ago.
Work time. Flame away. :D
lonesomerobot
What these people were really victims of was the Risk™ cover-the-board mentality of some Christian zealots, where any non-Christian piece of land is an aberration before God and an insult to baby Jeebus.
joe from Lowell
@Nellcote:
The Navy, in cooperation with several other nations’ navies (mostly the French) is carrying out an ongoing anti-pirate mission in this region. They would be doing so whether that yacht had sailed there or not. Fighting these pirates is something the Navy is supposed to be doing, whether that yacht sailed there or not.
So it’s not like the hikers, where the helicopters and personnel and whatnot are being called out especially for them. It’s more like, if a police officer on patrol interrupts a mugging, should the victim be charged?
Tsulagi
Yep.
Hit it again.
Given comments in the previous thread and already here, you whiffed on this one.
Michael
@Pococurante:
Please review the attached 2009 Somali pirate attack map, and rethink that one.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/04/17/weekinreview/0419-pirates.html
kdaug
@licensed to kill time:
Yup.
zuzu (not that one, the other one)
@Chris: Yes, this.
The Somali pirate situation is far more complex than it’s made out in the media here. When Somalia had a functioning government, it also had a coast guard that was able to enforce stuff like fishing rights and dumping. Maybe not all that well, but they did it. And fishermen were able to make a living.
Now that there is no government, corporations (many from Europe) are taking the opportunity to fish in Somalia’s territorial waters, leaving the fishermen unable to make a living as they have for years. On top of that, they have taken to dumping toxic and radioactive waste near to shore to save themselves the trouble of dumping it out farther in international waters, or — though it’s hard to imagine — disposing of it properly and legally.
So you have a situation where a bunch of desperate fishermen took a look around them, realized that while they couldn’t fish, they had boats and they were adjacent to the very narrow Gulf of Aden, the only way for shipping traffic to get from the Red Sea to the Indian Ocean. And many commercial freighters have very small crews. So they started seizing ships as a way to get ransom money.
You could look at it as the inevitable outcome of libertarian policies, since Somalia is like Libertarian Utopia.
And, please, John, no one would judge women who were beaten and raped for being in the wrong part of town? After they were drinking?
jl
@JWL:
“Those people were American citizens, hijacked while sailing in international waters. End of story.”
I tend to agree, though am curious about how far their route was from previous attacks.
It took me all of 30 seconds to find this info:
U.S. citizens are urged to use extreme caution when sailing near the coast of Somalia. Merchant vessels, fishing boats, and recreational craft all risk seizure by pirates and having their crews held for ransom in the waters off the Horn of Africa, especially in the international waters near Somalia. If transit around the Horn of Africa is necessary, it is strongly recommended that vessels travel in convoys, maintain good communications contact at all times, and follow the guidance provided by the Maritime Security Center – Horn of Africa (MSC-HOA). U.S. citizens should consult the Maritime Administration’s Horn of Africa Piracy page (http://www.marad.dot.gov/news_room_landing_page/horn_of_africa_piracy/horn_of_africa_piracy.htm) for information on maritime advisories, self-protection measures, and naval forces in the region.
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/tw/tw_933.html
I think it is generally unfair to jump on innocent people set on by bad people, until one has all the facts. The hikers captured by Iran and on trial now, are an example, since I think they were traveling, or thought they were traveling in a tourist area generally considered to be safe. As I remember reading, it was a place that most U.S. citizens would consider dangerous, but many people were visiting that part of Iraq.
eemom
@joe from Lowell:
then “a reasonable person” is a dogmatic idiot incapable of comprehending even the slightest degree of nuance.
Objecting to proselytizing, and criticizing someone’s religion, are NOT the same thing, btw. Kind of a big fucking difference there — but I suppose even that might elude your version of a “reasonable person.”
joe from Lowell
\@A Commenter at Balloon Juice (formerlyThe Grand Panjandrum):
“Pirate-infested” isn’t a natural condition, you know. These waters are “pirate-infested” because these pirates have decided to prey there. And your response is “let them have it.”
And if they further make the entire Indian Ocean “pirate-infested?” The Red Sea, right up to the Suez Canal?
Barb (formerly Gex)
Well, I now see how we can get the bigger middle eastern war the Iran war proponents want so badly. Just send some extremist US Christians to the region in a boat to agitate and start a holy war. Question is, does it still fall upon the military to automatically step in?
Michael
@lonesomerobot:
You meant to say Sweet Baby Jeebus™, correct? Otherwise, you forfeit your soul to infinite fire and brimstone…
Amir_Khalid
According to the AP story in the link, the Adams were taking part in a yacht race but then split off from the main group and went by themselves into an area known to be dangerous, for reasons they didn’t share with anyone else. I’m not saying that takes even the smallest part of the blame for their deaths away from their murderers. But I suppose it would be fair, if rather unkind, to consider whether the Adams’ own poor judgment was what led to their deaths.
However, it’s a stretch for Anne Laurie to accuse the Adams of sectarian condescension toward other people. Not all those who evangelize for their faith are like that. And she doesn’t even know for sure if that was why they left the yacht race. Plus, mocking Vice Admiral Fox’s surname was a graceless cheap shot.
All that said, I’ve come to expect better from her as a matter of course. The post was an uncharacteristic lapse.
trollhattan
Did y’all know the U.N. has a Counter-Piracy Programme newsletter? Now you do.
http://www.unodc.org/documents/easternafrica//piracy/20110209.UNODC_Counter_Piracy_February_Issue.pdf
Interrobang
Or she said EXACTLY what she meant, which is that the four people killed were trying to get attacked and/or captured so that the US could have a ‘gulf of Tonkin incident’ and they ended up getting killed
That’s funny, I read it as “certain elements in the US are likely to use their deaths as a ‘Gulf of Tonkin Incident’ because they wound up getting killed,” and I agree with that about 150%, especially since the people killed were missionaries. That pretty much guarantees being able to get the religious dimwits on side.
Personally, I think missionaries should stay at home provide a compelling example of why their religion makes them excellent human beings in order to convince people to convert to their religion, not go trotting all over the world pushing Wholly Babbles on people. I rank them on the nuisance scale slightly below telemarketers who call at dinnertime.
Chuck Butcher
My assertion that they asked for it has something to do with my line of work – which is hellish dangerous, per worker’s comp rates more dangerous than being a cop. I do what is possible to lower that risk and continue doing dangerous work. Mixing in prejudices about women or bibles doesn’t impress someone who is considered by a large percentage to be an over-paid monkey.
If you’re going to do something dangerous you minimize the fucking risks, swimming is somewhat dangerous so you don’t swim 5 miles out in Lake Superior with no back-up and I don’t wear a damn blindfold on a jobsite. (oh yeah, guards are in place and use on tools, eye protection, etc)
losingtehplot
Not necessarily too much to do with Bible-bearing yachts – a bit of background:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-you-are-being-lied-to-about-pirates-1225817.html
starting from para 5
‘The words of one pirate from that lost age, a young British man called William Scott, should echo into this new age of piracy. Just before he was hanged in Charleston, South Carolina, he said: “What I did was to keep me from perishing. I was forced to go a-pirateing to live.” In 1991, the government of Somalia collapsed. Its nine million people have been teetering on starvation ever since – and the ugliest forces in the Western world have seen this as a great opportunity to steal the country’s food supply and dump our nuclear waste in their seas.
Yes: nuclear waste. As soon as the government was gone, mysterious European ships started appearing off the coast of Somalia, dumping vast barrels into the ocean. The coastal population began to sicken. At first they suffered strange rashes, nausea and malformed babies. Then, after the 2005 tsunami, hundreds of the dumped and leaking barrels washed up on shore. People began to suffer from radiation sickness, and more than 300 died.
Ahmedou Ould-Abdallah, the UN envoy to Somalia, tells me: “Somebody is dumping nuclear material here. There is also lead, and heavy metals such as cadmium and mercury – you name it.” Much of it can be traced back to European hospitals and factories, who seem to be passing it on to the Italian mafia to “dispose” of cheaply. When I asked Mr Ould-Abdallah what European governments were doing about it, he said with a sigh: “Nothing. There has been no clean-up, no compensation, and no prevention.”
At the same time, other European ships have been looting Somalia’s seas of their greatest resource: seafood. We have destroyed our own fish stocks by overexploitation – and now we have moved on to theirs. More than $300m-worth of tuna, shrimp, and lobster are being stolen every year by illegal trawlers. The local fishermen are now starving. Mohammed Hussein, a fisherman in the town of Marka 100km south of Mogadishu, told Reuters: “If nothing is done, there soon won’t be much fish left in our coastal waters.”
This is the context in which the “pirates” have emerged. Somalian fishermen took speedboats to try to dissuade the dumpers and trawlers, or at least levy a “tax” on them. They call themselves the Volunteer Coastguard of Somalia – and ordinary Somalis agree. The independent Somalian news site WardheerNews found 70 per cent “strongly supported the piracy as a form of national defence”.
No, this doesn’t make hostage-taking justifiable, and yes, some are clearly just gangsters – especially those who have held up World Food Programme supplies. But in a telephone interview, one of the pirate leaders, Sugule Ali: “We don’t consider ourselves sea bandits. We consider sea bandits [to be] those who illegally fish and dump in our seas.” William Scott would understand.
Did we expect starving Somalians to stand passively on their beaches, paddling in our toxic waste, and watch us snatch their fish to eat in restaurants in London and Paris and Rome? We won’t act on those crimes – the only sane solution to this problem – but when some of the fishermen responded by disrupting the transit-corridor for 20 per cent of the world’s oil supply, we swiftly send in the gunboats.
The story of the 2009 war on piracy was best summarised by another pirate, who lived and died in the fourth century BC. He was captured and brought to Alexander the Great, who demanded to know “what he meant by keeping possession of the sea.” The pirate smiled, and responded: “What you mean by seizing the whole earth; but because I do it with a petty ship, I am called a robber, while you, who do it with a great fleet, are called emperor.” Once again, our great imperial fleets sail – but who is the robber?’
eemom
This is another thing. I am sick of people cherry-picking bad shit that happens to “American citizens” to get outraged about, when so much of the world is drowning in blood as a result of the actions of “American citizens.”
General Stuck
Let this be a sage lesson sir, of what happens when you linger too long in the deep end of Lake Libtard.
joe from Lowell
@The Moar You Know:
Wow, did you go to nationals in Missing the Point, or were you just All State?
Those of us who want the Navy to do something about pirates attacking people understand that the world is a brutal and shitty place, thanks. The difference between us and you is that we think we should do something about it, instead of cowering like you.
Michael
@Barb (formerly Gex):
Yes. Sacrifice in the service of proselytization on behalf of a psychotic deity who does fuck-all for himself is the highest duty of a US serviceman. Particularly if some wealthy white wingnut can further himself materially in the process.
“What a friend we have in Jeeeeeeee-sus……”
Barbara
“Blaming the victim” in my view is when you refuse to prosecute or investigate a crime because the victim should have known better. That’s clearly wrong. But pointing out that people can do a lot of things to secure their own safety is not the same as blaming the victim. And certainly, whether it’s some nitwit hiking down the Grand Canyon without adequate water supplies or some wealthy Americans yachting through the Indian Ocean, there is just so much social safety net support that you can absolutely count on to save you from excessive risk taking.
Pococurante
@kdaug:
Ok you are king for a day and you make it so.
Who fills the gap? You?
Of course there are those who don’t care about anyone outside of their immediate monkey sphere. Perhaps you’re one of them but if so you’d probably be happier sticking to the wingnut blogs.
Many missionaries filling that gap actually do not push their religion. This is no longer the early 20th century and before, when missionaries enforced conversion and destroyed families at the point of US guns.
It is well understood that the most effective way to attract congregants is to simply help folks while practicing their religion passively, but educate those who are curious and want to know more. That seems reasonable to me.
But you just made them disappear. Who fills the gap?
I’m neither evangelical nor Christian. But I value what they do.
Huego
@Pococurante: this.
Once again, for those of you scoring at home — they were off the coast of Oman, not Somalia. Until this incident, the Oman coast and the Somalia coast were about as similar as chicken salad and chicken sh#@ from a sailboat safety standpoint. They were absolutely nowhere near Somalia. The notion that they were blithely loitering around Somalia while handing out bibles and asking to be kidnapped is utterly counterfactual. They were sailing a boat — on a conventional circumnavigation track — from India to Oman. Bibles and god-bothering have nothing to do this incident. Facts, people.
Ash Can
@Michael: Actually, that map does in fact show that this attack was a clear outlier, and that Pococurante is right. Do you have some other information that you can link to?
joe from Lowell
@Tonybrown74:
Do you actually think that national governments using their navies to keep their citizens and merchants safe from pirates is something unique to this situation, or to the United States?
Seriously?
A whole lot of people seem to like the term “American exceptionalism” way too much.
lonesomerobot
Personally I don’t get why it wouldn’t be OK to think these people were stupid for sailing anywhere near the coast of Somalia.
Michael
@Interrobang:
I generally rate evangelical bible pushers beneath used car salesmen, telemarketers at dinner time and scam charity callers.
joe from Lowell
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
We aren’t enforcing them “one at a time.” We’ve had an ongoing, multi-national anti-pirate mission in the region for almost a decade now.
General Stuck
@Huego:
And THIS!!
Alecmcc
@Southern Beale:
Beat me to it – and far more eloquently.
Huego
@Michael: That map shows exactly the opposite of what you think it does.
Blogasita
You are responsible for our own life. That women who was raped & murdered in NYC didn’t deserve to be raped & murdered. But she didn’t take responsibility for her own behavior. Yeah walking through NY at 3am while blitzed…maybe you’ll be alright. In fact, probably you’ll be alright. But is anyone surprised that it didn’t turn out alright? No.
The same with these people. They were educated adults. They had to know what they were doing was risky. They played the odds and lost.
It’s a big, bad world out there. There are a lot of sick bastards and just carnivores trying to get by. They’ll literally kill you for jays or a dollar, depending on their economic situation. it’s up to you to take responsibility for your own safety, as best you can.
kdaug
@Pococurante:
Evidence?
Chuck Butcher
I still expect an ambulance to show up to deal with the sawed off toes from laying down an un-guarded saw – sawyer is still a dumbass and won’t work for me.
General Stuck
It is always fascinating, and often sad, to see the interplay of religion politics in a criminal tragedy such as this one.
Michael
@Pococurante:
What gap? The stupid fucktards suck the wind out of the room in terms of siphoning off charitable donations. Calvinist evangelical missionaries could disappear off the face of the earth tomorrow in a rapture, and we’d have a much easier time providing real aid, as it wouldn’t be tied up in wingnut rake-offs, wingnut salaries via the secular outfits like Medicine Sans Frontieres, the International Red Cross, and the like. Hell, the non-Calvinist Christian groups do a much better job of delivering service on a secular basis than those white, gladhanding fuckwits from the US South and Midwest.
Chris
@zuzu (not that one, the other one):
Yep.
As long as we’re listening to the other side bleat out slippery-slope bullshit, I always enjoy this one. “You guys should ask the RUSSIANS how well big government worked out for THEM!” Sure. Just as soon as you ask the Somalis how small government’s working out for them.
joe from Lowell
@eemom:
dogmatic – characterized by or given to the expression of opinions very strongly or positively as if they were facts
Your sentence makes no sense. That’s what happens when you have VERY STRONG FEELINGS and SIMPLY MUST write an insulting comment before you bother to come up with a coherent thought.
Look, dearie, it’s clear you don’t like religion, but what happened this time is that you grabbed a word whose definition you didn’t know, but which you equate with those nasty religious people, and threw it out as a slur, resulting in a nice word salad.
Try again. Or, better yet, don’t.
Objecting to proselytizing, and criticizing someone’s religion, are NOT the same thing, btw. Kind of a big fucking difference there
Shorter eemon: I don’t hate gay people. I just don’t like their behavior.
That argument doesn’t become any more respectable, and any less an expression of bigotry, when you apply it to a group of people that you’ve decided deserve it.
Pococurante
@Michael: Michael, they were captured off Oman. Oman is not shown on your link. The closest historic attack is the 2/21/2009 report.
The pirates are expanding their reach. The trip was risk as any trip out there is risky. But it was hardly a slamdunk except by Cheney standards their sail plan was doomed.
Unless you’re asserting no one has any business being anywhere in the region. I’d disagree but ok.
@Michael: Ah I get it – never mind. You’re incapable of thinking beyond RedState standards. Sweeping generalizations are idiocy.
Ash Can
@lonesomerobot: It’s not. And they weren’t. I’ll say it again, in fact I’ll shout it:
THESE PEOPLE WERE NOWHERE NEAR SOMALIA. Thanks to the map Michael linked above, I figured out how far they actually were from Somalia (hint: they weren’t even on the linked map).
I suggest you all take a look at the map Michael linked to, and then look at where Oman is in relation to it.
soonergrunt
I’m just going to pop some popcorn, open a beer, and keep hitting refresh on this thread all evening. This is better than NASCAR!
Face
Too bad they had a boat full of bibles, and not a boat full of, ya know, M-60s.
Ferd of the Nort
Would you decry and deride 4 people who were injured juggling hand grenades?
I would think so.
These are people who CHOSE to go that way. They went into the lions’ den with full knowledge. Their route was optional, and safety measures were available (an International protected convoy system is around).
There is a degree of risk that one takes in every aspect of life. Managing that risk is the problem. I do not blame the victims. I simply question the Risk/Reward decision process they had.
Was the reward worth the risk? What were their rewards for going through pirate waters without protection?
Were they evaluating the risks correctly?
Are they to blame? Well. Look at the juggling hand grenades analogy. It is a very high risk, very low reward activity. So, yeah, blame the victims.
On the other hand, walking through a US community (even a “bad” one) tends to be a much lower risk activity. There is a high expectation of survival (very limited or no damage outcome), and even a reasonable risk of success (no negative incident, with goal achieved). There is actually a very small risk of a negative outcome.
The risk/reward dynamic a very different from juggling grenades, and thus no blame should be laid.
Is it appropriate to blame the sailors for their choices… That is a issue that has room for debate.
My position is that they chose to do something and lost their gamble. This is no different than poking a polar bear to obtain a more dynamic photograph. Your family MIGHT be able to post a fabulous photograph at your funeral, but probably not.
People always make poor choices. Whether or not we blame them depends on our perception of the incident specific risks vs. the apparent rewards.
Morbo
@Chris: Hey, there is a free market solution to piracy you know. Bounty hunters. Thanks for the tip, Ron Paul.
kdaug
@Pococurante:
Who fills the gap for what, precisely? Telling people what to believe?? Showing them the “True Nature of the Universe”?
I don’t see a need to be filled.
Chris
@Morbo:
Bounty hunters! We don’t need that scum!
Sorry, it had to be said.
lonesomerobot
the article doesn’t specify how far south of Oman they were… and the map does show several attempted hijackings at 400-500 nautical miles out, which is south of Oman.
joe from Lowell
@Huego: Thank you for bringing actual facts to this discussion.
What’s interesting is how many other people brought completely made-up “facts” to it, just because those “facts” confirmed their prejudices and/or lead to the conclusion that it’s wrong for the military to do something.
kdaug
@Pococurante:
But you sure seem a big believer in Manifest Destiny and the Great White Hope.
I think the indigenous were getting along just fine without us.
Gian
@srv:
you’re barking up the wrong tree, these aren’t the first people to have been hostages, and some previous ones have been rescued. And other nations have used naval forces there too.
and when it comes to paying ransom, google “millions for defense but not one penny for tribute”
Huego
@Face: There were apparently something on the order of 17 pirates. I’m not sure a boat full of M-60s would have helped against a pirate mother ship with 17 attackers.
We don’t carry guns aboard for a number of reasons, among them being that the odds of (1) being attacked by pirates (2) under circumstances in which a gun would actually be helpful are just infinitessimal. I’ve heard of one such story ever, and the reasons to doubt its veracity are substantial.
Also, it’s hard to overstate the hassles created by having a gun on board. And failure to endure the hassles (i.e. try to sneak one around) is running a very real risk of a ticket to Turkish prison.
lonesomerobot
@Ash Can: If they were captured by Somali pirates, they were near enough. According to the NY Times map, just over 200 miles from Somalia is “south of Oman” — by my count there are at least 12 incidents from the map that meet that description. They were sailing alone in waters that were within the range of piracy. As far as I’m concerned, that is stupid.
Tonybrown74
@joe from Lowell:
I didn’t say that.
But traveling to places around the world with the expectation of American (or Western) freedoms and values is extremely naive and quite frankly stupid. And maybe this is only my experience, but a lot of Americans travel the globe and there is this mentality that we can go anywhere without repercussions.
THAT is what I refer to as American Exceptionalism.
We SHOULD be able to travel the world and go wherever we want. Not just Americans. everyone should. That is the ideal.
But that isn’t the world we live in. And breaking away from their convoy in the Indian Ocean, where piracy is a huge concern was an incredibly stupid thing to do.
I still can have that thought and feel horrified by the way they were killed.
Chris Gerrib
Again, the yacht was taken off of Oman, not Somalia. The Somali pirates are operating as far as 1,500 miles from their coast. There have been attacks 500 miles off of the Indian coast.
Unless we decide that the entire Middle East and India is a no-go zone, we are going to have to deal with Somali pirates.
Regarding illegal dumping – true but irrelevant. The Somalis destroyed their own government, which opened the door to the dumping.
joe from Lowell
@Ferd of the Nort:
Off the coast of Oman is “the lion’s den?”
Really?
Quick, name the last time pirates attacked a ship off Oman.
MikeF
@Blogasita:
This hijacking is less “walking through NY at 3am while blitzed” and more “walking through the suburbs at 7pm after having a glass of wine with dinner”, with everyone afterward assuming – simply by virtue of the fact an attack happened – that your behavior was orders of magnitude riskier than it really was. Sometimes I think we’re just hard-wired to blame the victim.
Michael
@Pococurante:
Stupid fuck. You do realize that 2010 isn’t included? And that Oman is actually barely off that map?
eemom
@joe from Lowell:
thanks for proving my point. You are, in fact, your own “reasonable person.”
And you’re a fucking self-righteous asshole, also too.
If you think it’s “clear” that I dislike religion, it’s because you’ve got your head so far up your Catholic Church-apologist ass you’re reading through your nostrils.
lonesomerobot
@joe from Lowell: Last time pirates attacked a ship off Oman? How about 2009.
Huego
@lonesomerobot:
“If they were captured by Somali pirates, they were near enough. They were sailing alone in waters that were within the range of piracy. As far as I’m concerned, that is stupid.”
Sri Lanka, off limits? India, off limits? The entire Red Sea, off limits? Thailand, off limits? Sumatra, off limits? These mother ships have MASSIVE range.
Merely getting into a head-on collision doesn’t prove that you shouldn’t have been driving.
Michael
@joe from Lowell:
Easy peasy, lemon squeasy.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:LKTTUm-Fk4oJ:news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8098365.stm+oman+pirate&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com
From the BBC, 12 June 2009
Ferd of the Nort
The Indian Ocean is the lions den.
Goes right into the Malacca Straights, which still has piracy. International piracy is NOT exclusive to the Somali coast.
That being said… They chose to leave the convoy. If you are IN an anti-piracy convoy you have knowledge of potential bad stuff. Knowingly.
They chose to leave the convoy… as in they WERE IN piracy potential waters.
lonesomerobot
@joe from Lowell: 2010. 2011 – just this month. They were stupid to be sailing alone in this area.
Another Commenter at Balloon Juice (fka Bella Q)
@Barb (formerly Gex): I can’t state it any more succinctly than this, with which I agree totally.
Huego
It’s also @lonesomerobot:
Operative word: ship.
A bulk-carrier cargo ship and a private sailboat are hardly comparable. The number of attacks on commercial vessels v. sailboats run about 100-1. But, hey, if there was even a teensy chance something bad could happen to them, they are idiots. Must be a fun way to go through life.
lonesomerobot
@Huego: But you’re trying to defend stupidity. They sailed off alone, in waters where a hijacking had occurred earlier this month. Sorry, but the answer to all of your queries is “yes”. It is stupid to sail alone through waters where piracy is known to occur.
joe from Lowell
@eemom: My my, this dispute we’re having must be going really, really well for you.
Tee hee.
Batocchio
It’s too bad you’re not into spelunking, because West Virginia has some awesome caves. I grew up near D.C., and when I was in the Boy Scouts when did an annual winter spelunking trip to WV.
Michael
@lonesomerobot:
Shit, that 2011 attack was only 60 miles off Minicoy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minicoy
joe from Lowell
See Huego’s point about ships vs. yachts.
Huego
@Ferd of the Nort:
I (and hundreds of other boats) will be sailing through Malacca in the next few months. Pirate attacks are now extremely rare in this area on vessels of any kind and essentially non-existent on private sailboats (and, for the latter, have been for a long time). Do you view this as an unacceptable risk taken by idiots in the “lions den?”
lonesomerobot
@joe from Lowell: I find it interesting that I have to find compelling evidence that proves that it’s stupid to sail alone through waters where piracy is known to occur.
Huego
@lonesomerobot:
It is stupid to drive on freeways where accidents are known to occur.
Fixed for you (sorry, my html skills are limited).
Ferd of the Nort
@Huego: Are you taking anti-piracy precautions, like say moving in convoy? What are the precautions being taken?
While piracy does still occur in Malacca, it is a lot lower than it has been. Risks in the Malacca Straights are pretty low. Would you still be taking those risks if there were recent reports (eg; incidents within the last month) of major piracy operations that had a history of taking French and Italian boaters, not just cargo ships?
If you were musterred into a convoy for protection in those waters and then chose to go out on your own… yeah, you are an idiot.
Ash Can
OK, after reading this article from Qatar, I can see that they were in fact off the south coast of Oman, within the outermost range of the map Michael linked to. And I did follow the subsequent links furnished by Michael and lonesomerobot, which show that there have in fact been attacks off the coast of Oman, as well as one off the southern tip of India. Nevertheless, although this would not be a risk I’d be willing to take myself, the number of attacks and types of vessels routinely attacked do not indicate that these people were making as risky a choice as many comments here would lead me to believe. Frankly, I’d be more inclined to listen to someone who’s actually sailing in that part of the world (Huego) than a bunch of armchair quarterbacks (of which I too am one).
ETA: I.e., the number of outlying attacks, along the yacht’s route.
Michael
@Huego:
On the internet, everybody is good-looking, rich, talented and super skilled.
http://yachtpals.com/pirates-yacht-4130
http://gcaptain.com/french-navy-storms-sailboat-held?7846
http://sailboats.wordpress.com/2008/09/03/pirates-attack-sailboat-taking-french-crew-hostage/
http://boatermouth.com/charles-doane/3200-somali-piracy-2011-yacht-convoy-season
Michael
@Huego:
On the internet, everybody is good-looking, rich, talented and super skilled.
http://yachtpals.com/pirates-yacht-4130
http://gcaptain.com/french-navy-storms-sailboat-held?7846
Ferd of the Nort
I would also like to point out that flying and subways are much safer than freeways. Based on pure risk/reward analysis, freeways are stupid dangerous.
Where there is an alternative, take it.
Pity we can not choose alternatives all the time.
lonesomerobot
@Huego: It’s just not even close to an apt comparison. Getting in an accident on the freeway is not likely to get me shot, kidnapped, robbed or even in all probability injured in any significant way.
Just tell us now, would you sail through these areas alone?
Michael
More nonexistent yacht attacks.
http://boatermouth.com/charles-doane/3200-somali-piracy-2011-yacht-convoy-season
BTW – nice map.
teak111
Swim bike, then run. So you would drown in the first event and in fact that is where most triathletes do die, on the swim.
We are not getting the full story on this tragic event. Exactly where were the SEALs when the shooting started.
Sam Hutcheson
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
What if you’re a female reporter and you go to Egypt to cover a revolution, and you get raped there? Is it your fault for going into dangerous territory then?
Michael
@teak111:
Racial/gender identity sensitivity training, duh.
/wingnut blog commenter mode
Huego
“On the internet, everybody is good-looking, rich, talented and super skilled.”
OK, I’ve now linked the (sadly very out of date) blog, you clown. Spectacle is currently in Bali (I’m currently in Sri Lanka). GFY.
Yes, I and EVERY SINGLE OTHER BOAT will not be convoying through Malacca. It’s not done because there’s essentially no risk there. It’s not even discussed.
Your two terrific links are super helpful since they both involve incidents that were off of Somalia, a location some 20% of the world away from Malacca. Geography FAIL.
matoko_chan
you know man….sometimes you stupid.
just as it is a RELIGIOUS BELIEF for christians to proselytize, it is a RELIGIOUS BELIEF for muslims to kill proselytizers aka resist proselytization.
and those murderous fucktards didnt off the missionaries because they were proselytizers….it was because the pirates are capitialists.
they killed the missionaries because the Americans were going to rescue them, not because they had bibles. Those stupid WEC people were just piles of dollah bills that instantly devalued when the rescuers appeared on the event horizon.
killing them was a lesson for America– pay up or else. a rescue attempt ==death for the kidnapees.
capitalism is a lesson they learned very well from Big White Christian Bwana.
the lesson they will never learn is christianity.
so give up already.
matoko_chan
@Sam Hutcheson:
Laura Logan was not a dumbfuck WEC missionary. she was doing her job. Mubarak broke his contract with his american handlers by sending his thugs to hassle western reporters.
not at all the same.
Huego
@lonesomerobot:
“Getting in an accident on the freeway is not likely to get me shot, kidnapped, robbed or even in all probability injured in any significant way”
The 40,000 Americans who die every year in traffic accidents would beg to differ.
You do actually understand that many hundreds if not thousands of sailboats have been through where these folks were since the last attack on a sailboat — some 6 years ago — making the passage to the Red Sea, right?
matoko_chan
@Michael: wow, that is brilliant.
may i touch the hem of your garment?
Keith G
@eemom:
I wouldn’t say they deserved it, but I would still mock them. But you are a better person than I. And I almost died on the side of a mountain because I was 17 and stuuuuupid!!
mom, note your (and other’s) wording: deserved to die
Who are saying they deserved to die? One or two idjits? A good and wise person, righteous and with a huge intellect can still make a bad choice that leads to his death. In that case he/she is largely to blame for the death that they did not deserve.
Note: I was was not rescued. Had the twenty foot fall and roll been two feet longer, the next 60 ft drop would have left me bear meat.
As it was I was able to get my battered body back to a less remoat place and got a lift to a ranger station. I had decided to leave a group base camp and take a solo hike up a mountain. Very, very dumb. I learned.
jenn
@Ash Can:
On the other hand, based on the article you just cited, piracy in the area is at its highest point ever, this is the peak time of year for such attacks, and while yachts are less frequently attacked, when they are, the people on board are of greater focus than those of merchant ships, where the cargo is of greater focus.
I guess my point is: this just sucks. I am very sorry for their families, and I wish for their sakes that they had erred on the side of caution, and I hope that this sad episode will encourage others to think twice about the risks in the area. But while they could have done more to reduce the risks to themselves, they also weren’t doing anything wrong — the real problem is of course how to stop these attacks, and help alleviate the horrifying conditions within Somalia that lead to them.
/waves magic wand, and wishes for world peace
matoko_chan
@jenn:
might as well wave a cross, dimbo.
Tsulagi
@Michael: Obviously you like maps. Here’s one for you. Even with all those red dots of deaths at the hands of
piratesa gang I bet there’s still some dumbass fuckers stillsailingdriving in L.A.Omnes Omnibus
My understanding is that the yacht’s options for returning home from where they were involved 1) sailing all the way around Africa, Sailing the entire Pacific, or sailing the route they were taking.
FWIW Adams is a 1962 graduate of my undergrad.
matoko_chan
@Cole no need to apolo for Anne Laurie.
She got the truthsay.
the same butthurt christian perpetual victimhood posse ain’ gonna like it, anymore than they like it when you say you’re an atheist. membah? you get an avalanche of butthurt christian email whinage whenever you say you’re an atheist. do i need to link?
they cant turn of the proselytizing anymore than the conservative base can turn off the
birtherismracism.and they are so amazing gobsmacked when most of the rest of the world would rather die than accept White Plastic Jeebus.
go figure.
they are retards.
Huego
The latest map STILL doesn’t include the area where these folks were taken. If I didn’t know better, I might think Michael wasn’t too awesome at geography.
matoko_chan
wallah….the Canopener of Epiphany on my thick skull!
maybe conservatism isnt selection for stupid……maybe its christianity that is selection for stupid.
because not all christians are conservative….but ALL conservatives are christians, except for statistically negligible outliers of token jews and atheists.
even sikhs like nikki haley and hindus like jindahl have to convert.
lawl.
Wile E. Quixote
@John Cole:
You should take some of those things up. Seriously Cole, what’s the worst that could happen? You shattered your shoulder while you were out walking the dog and had another accident when you were mopping the bathroom (naked). You’ve got it all backwaards, it’s the day to day activities that are going to kill you. You’d be completely invulnerable if you ever took up mountain-climing, paragliding, base-jumping, gator-rasslin*, shark-wrangling**, etc.***
*I’d avoid doing this naked though.
**If you take up shark-wrangling I’m sure that you can borrow a wetsuit from your friendly local Republican legislator or conservative Baptist clergyman.
***This theory makes at least as much sense as anything written by the Business and Economics Editor at The Atlantic.
jenn
@matoko_chan:
I am skewered by your rapier wit.
Keith G
@matoko_chan: You are doing it again.
matoko_chan
@jenn: i fenced epee, Jenn.
rapiers are theatrical.
matoko_chan
@jenn: i fenced epee, Jenn.
rapiers are theatrical.
matoko_chan
@Keith G: doing what?
ABT.
;)
Elie
@matoko_chan:
You are hot today… absolutely right on…
Omnes Omnibus
@matoko_chan: Actually, a rapier is a type of sword and “rapier wit” is a figure of speech recognized by most educated people.
Maude
@Huego:
Let’s not let facts get in the way of the narrative.
These nice visitors have shown up on the blog to share their love of humanity with us. We should be grateful.
soonergrunt
@Wile E. Quixote: He should probably take a pass on the inner wetsuit (the guy was wearing two) and the dildo, don’t you think?
Omnes Omnibus
@soonergrunt: I think that should be a person decision for Cole. I won’t judge.
hoyt
“Likewise, let’s do a thought experiment. Let’s say four young women were walking around a bad part of town at night. Everyone knows it is a bad part of town, but they wanted to get from point a to point b, so they had to go through it. ” We don’t always get to do what we want to do; this was an action that the people didnt “have” to do, they chose to do it; knowing fully that it was dangerous. If I choose to go to some town in Iraq as a civilian and get killed because somebody doesnt like me, in theory I should have the right to walk around & not get kiled if I myslef am not offensive, but in fact the world doesnt arrange itself for Americans, or any other type of person.
lacp
On both this and the previous related thread several commentors compared piracy off the coast of Somalia with crime in America’s more damaged neighborhoods. How do we handle high-crime areas? Don’t we usually try a two-part strategy using (1) policing to prevent crime and/or capture criminals and (2) social policies that attempt to address the factors that are promoting criminality? So…wouldn’t the logical conclusion be that we (1) participate in anti-piracy patrolling and (2) work on some agreements ending toxic dumping and deterring foreign overfishing, in order to give Somali fisherman an incentive to go back to that line of work? And aren’t I a complete asshole for overlooking the 200+ comments that I didn’t read that already make this point?
matoko_chan
@Omnes Omnibus: well, i fenced in undergrad. rapiers were used for theatrical fencing, foils for practice, and sabres for the meatpuppets.
the epee has a “blood groove” down the side, that duelists used to pack with poison or rotten meat.
it is always my weapon of choice.
;)
matoko_chan
@hoyt: xactly. the World is not America.
why are americans so disrespectful of other cultures?
those missionaries were stupid. they got exactly what they deserved…..a darwinian judgment.
im just glad no American soljahs were wounded or killed as the cost of their idiocy.
eemom
@Omnes Omnibus:
There are some on this blog who don’t recognize it. Fancy that.
Omnes Omnibus
@matoko_chan: And yet you are unaware that the rapier was the predominant sword of the 16th and 17th centuries in Europe. Hmm.
soonergrunt
@Omnes Omnibus: I was thinking of the sanitary aspect of it. I don’t know how one sanitizes a used wetsuit, particularly one in which the previous owner died. But other than that aspect of it, and my concern for John’s health, I do agree with you. To each his own, and if John Cole wants to wear a wetsuit inundated with the bodily fluids of a deceased pervert and/or do whatever it is he would do with a dildo used by said deceased pervert, then I say more power to him!
matoko_chan
@eemom:
How?
how does one do that?
those dumbfuck missionaries chose their path. they got EXACTLY what they deserved.
free will FTW!
Omnes Omnibus
@soonergrunt: OTOH, I wouldn’t encourage it.
lacp
@soonergrunt: And wouldn’t it be teh awesomest if he was wearing/using these accoutrements in….the second leg of a triathlon!
jenn
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yeah — and she also seems to be unaware of sarcasm!
matoko_chan
@Omnes Omnibus: in my practical experience, rapiers bend. because in contemporary, non-stone age America, they are used on stage by actors.
epees, OTOH, do not bend.
Asshole
I’m pretty sure if the four hypothetical girls walking through the bad neighborhood who got raped were Christian missionaries, there’d be any number of commenters on this blog willing to blame them for being there. Also, there’d be at least one or two willing to cheer on the fact that they got raped, and make mocking comments about how Jeebus and the giant invisible sky fairy didn’t save them. And at this point, I’d expect Anne Laurie to write a post to that effect.
matoko_chan
@jenn: wallah…was that sarcastic?
next time use a /sarc tag.
matoko_chan
@Asshole: id be glad to write it too.
missionarism and proselytizing have caused most of the worlds woe and misery.
its a darwinian judgement– indigeneous people especially hate proselytizers…..indeed most of homo sap. hate proselytizers.
those WEC missionaries got exactly what they deserved.
and so would those dumbass christian girls.
free will, homes. free to be stupid.
its a selection fitness gradient for species survival.
Asshole
@matoko_chan:
I knew you’d step up.
If a Christian gets raped, it’s wonderful news, isn’t it?
Jennyjinx
@Pococurante
Exactly this.
Omnes Omnibus
@matoko_chan:Well, the rapiers that inspired the figure of speech that you did not grasp did not bend. As a matter of fact, they eventually evolved into the epee. You might want to understand the origins of the sport.
Annie
The situation is complicated. The sailors were part of a Blue Water rally, where many sailboats were traveling together. For some reason, these guys decided to go off on their own, even though they were warned that it was a dangerous things to do. All of the other sailboats made it safely to their destination. A religious crazy radio program I listened to on the way home went on and on about how they were murdered for trying to bring Christianity to those “unsaved.” To me, they were murdered because they made an incredibly stupid decision to travel to a place where they were warned was dangerous. Blaming the victim, no. Can we say they made an incredibly stupid decision, yes. Did they care about the potential consequences — who knows what they believed and what their motivations were.
lacp
Weren’t these poor people captured hundreds of miles out to sea? Who the fuck were they supposed to be proselytizeramalizing to/with/at? Moby Dick?
Jennyjinx
@Barb
Would you say the same thing if we were discussing Lara Logan? She didn’t have to be in Egypt when she was attacked, afterall.
Omnes Omnibus
@matoko_chan: They weren’t proselytizing when they were captured by the pirates. They were simply sailing.
jenn
@matoko_chan:
You are a sick idiot.
Laertes
The ugly thing about her post wasn’t that she blamed the victims. The ugly thing about it was the shocking lack of empathy and respect for the victims. Given the language of the post, it was clear that this was because they AL saw them as Reds.
It’s not as bad as the evil shit that Charles Johnson wrote about Rachel Corrie, but being less offensive than that isn’t near good enough.
celticdragonchick
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
Uh…keeping ocean lanes open for commerce and navigation is a primary mission for the Navy, believe it or not.
It has been ever since the late 18th Century when the Navy attacked pirates in Libya who were preying on US shipping and selling US citizens into slavery.
celticdragonchick
@joe from Lowell:
Exactly. Thank you.
celticdragonchick
@kdaug:
My parents were missionaries. My dad taught science at a bush school in Mashoko, Zimbebwe for two years. He did not take any “taxpayer money” or work for the Peace Corps. He took that whole thing about Christ wanting to make the world a better place seriously, and there are dozens of kids in Africa who benefited from it.
No doubt, you have better things to do then actually help African children get a decent education.
matoko_chan
@Jennyjinx: laura logan is different.
she was doing her JOB as a journalist, not pushing white plastic jeebus on cultures that want nothing to do with him. Mubarak got away from his American handlers and turned his thugs out to beat up western journalists.
@celticdragonchick: missionarism and proselytization are rude intellectual molestation.
and punishable by death in islamic cultures DIFFERENT FROM YOUR OWN.
your dads lucky he didnt get what he deserved, like the retarded WECs. im just glad they didnt get any of our soldiers killed..
@Omnes Omnibus: yeah, sailing with a load of bibles. missionary mission.
Arclite
@Michael:
They were apparently hijacked off the coast of Oman, on their way to Oman. That’s not even on the map you linked to and 1000 miles away from Somalia.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=133964404
matoko_chan
@Omnes Omnibus: lawl, never give me a picometer do you omnes?
en garde!
redoublet!
parry quatre!
matoko_chan
@Asshole: its poetic justice.
proselytizers are intellectual rapists.
Mary G
When I turned on the LA news radio to get the traffic, they ran interviews with people from their church – a Catholic church in Santa Monica. They didn’t sound like wing nuts at all; I’m not sure there are any in Santa Monica. The yacht club has put its flag at half mast. I’m getting the feeling they were genuinely nice rich people who liked to pass out Bibles on their own, not as part of some organized missionary group. Maybe we’ll learn more later.
One thing I knew nothing about was the dumping of nuclear waste offshore. That is disgusting.
celticdragonchick
@matoko_chan:
You really have gone beyond the bounds of decency. I can’t even be angry at you. You are simply too sick, too perverse and too inconsequential to actually get angry about.
I pity you. Your lack of empathy and understanding of even basic, innate human interactions makes you a figure to be used as an example:
An example of how hatred warps your soul
An example of how bitterness sows bitterness
An example of how not to treat others, even if we disagree with them
This is your legacy, Matoko_Chan
Unfortunately, you are too consumed by your own rage and ego to know just how pathetic you have become.
Laertes
I guess I don’t pay all that much attention, but I’d sort of gotten the idea that matoko_chan was simply a troll, saying any outrageous thing it thinks might get a rise out of people.
Do you think it’s serious?
Asshole
@matoko_chan:
I really hope you find the medication and/or therapy you need.
Asshole
@Laertes:
I do. I’ve seen some remarkable consistency in positions. And he/she’s not funny enough to be a troll. Not a good one, anyway.
I think he/she is just a very, very sick person, in need of psychiatric help. That’s the most charitable thing I can think, anyway.
Asshole
I mean, would a troll really say that it’s okay to rape people if they’re Christians? That’s not funny, not as a spoof or to get a rise out of people. Would a troll tell someone her father should’ve died before she was conceived? These are the positions of someone with mental illness- frankly, even if those positions were taken in jest, I’d question the mental health of anyone writing them as a joke.
matoko_chan
@celticdragonchick: no….i just think you’re stupid.
proselytization is a great evil.
it has caused millions of deaths.
celticdragonchick
@Asshole:
She needs help in the worst sort of way. Truly disturbed people never do it on their own, though.
Asshole
@matoko_chan:
You said you hoped her Dad died. Why should she give a shit what you think about anything?
Asshole
@celticdragonchick:
It’s sad. It really is. It just makes me feel awful.
celticdragonchick
@Asshole:
We should end it here. Engagement with her is feeding the delusional behavior. She wants us to react, and I will not feed her illness in this way. It does us no good, and it does her no favors either.
celticdragonchick
@Asshole:
I appreciate that. I’ll see you guys tomorrow.
Stefan
Go bounding off for some lawless territory, I don’t think you should expect the US Navy to send in the fleet.
The open sea is not a lawless territory. Part of the US Navy’s job is to enforce the law on the open sea.
Annie
@celticdragonchick:
I was a Peace Corps volunteer in Liberia. Got $200 a month for two years, and a $5,000 check at the end. No toilet for two years, not even a bathroom in my house, no electricity either. But, I was a teacher, and I believe I did well on the “taxpayer’s” dollar.
Morbo
So this is what happened to Adam Gadahn…
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@joe from Lowell:
@joe from Lowell:
Dude…Therein lies the problems. In a normal situation- say, as there was before Somalia fell into a state of anarchy- those waters wouldn’t be “pirate-infested”. If not the duty of a small Somalian Coast Guard, there would at least be foreign navy vessels in and around the ports and harbors, making it extremely unprofitable for piracy to occur there.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@joe from Lowell:
And how’s that been working out?
moron
Why are rich white Christians the only people that have an enforceable right not to be killed?
lonesomerobot
It’s great that we have a navy that is tasked with keeping the seas open and free. However, they are not open and free, hence one of the great needs for the navy.
All this talk about freeways and other nonsense still doesn’t change the fact that the people were stupid for sailing ALONE in waters where piracy is known to occur. Everyone that wants to refute this point has tried to argue the geography, the necessity of open sea lanes, or that there is some prejudice here, yet they have never addressed the fundamental point. These people were ALONE. They chose to leave the safety of a convoy. I’m not condemning them for being Christians or sailors or white or human or any other such nonsense, I’m condemning them for being STUPID.
Huego, you still never answered if you would sail the same area they were kidnapped ALONE. Sure, lots of people sail these same waters. I’m not suggesting they should stop. But do they do it alone?
celticdragonchick
@Annie:
Good for you. Not enough people give their time and talent. My folks chose to do it under a private program with only voluntary religious financial support. That in no way diminishes your commendable investment in another culture and people.
Smurfhole
@moron:
No one said this. Are we only supposed to talk about it when poor non-white non-Christians get killed, or is it just that it’s only okay to blame the victims when they’re rich white Christians?
kdaug
@celticdragonchick:
There’s the rub. Sounds like your folks were commendable people, taking the call to service seriously, and teaching science.
That, in my experience, makes them the exception.
See: Uganda Gay Campaign.
Smurfhole
@kdaug:
Plenty of decent missionaries in the world. Plenty of good work being done. I’m pretty sure most missionaries are nowhere near Uganda or its government.