That would be DFH’s like Assistant Secretary of Defense Sharon Burke.
Just to take a break from Wisconsin perfidy, consider Burke, whose brief is “operational energy plans and programs,” making the connection between death and dinosaur wine in a speech at Harvard last week:
Though the official price of a gallon of fuel within the military is set at $3.03, Burke said that the actual cost of fuel delivered, depending on the difficulty transporting it and protection needs, can be as high as $50 a gallon.
Burke told a story of tent usage in Iraq. One large tent used as a gymnasium required six generators to power the air conditioning, and even then the temperature was only lowered to 90 degrees. The problem, of course, was that a tent isn’t insulated well, so much of the cooling was lost to the desert.
“People were dying so we can vent our air conditioning to the desert,” Burke said.
Some key factoids from Burke’s speech:
The average U.S. soldier on a 72-hour patrol carries between 10 and 20 pounds of batteries.
There are seven kinds of batteries that power flashlights, GPS devices, night-vision gear, and other equipment considered essential for the modern soldier. Including spares, a soldier lugs 70 batteries, along with the devices themselves, weapons, food, water, and other necessities.
…
“We’re seeing pack weights of 130 pounds these days,” said Sharon Burke, assistant secretary of defense for operational energy plans and programs. “You can’t carry 130 pounds without turning up with injuries.”
The idea that our soldiers can’t fight (or can’t fight as easily and with as much stamina as they need) because of all the tools they must needs carry is a very scary one indeed — but that’s a topic for another day. In the meantime, back to that blood for oil problem:
The soldiers’ battery burden is just the tip of the military’s energy problem, Burke said. Heavily armored vehicles get just 4 miles per gallon. Air conditioners, computers, and other equipment at forward operating bases are powered by inefficient generators, at an enormous cost in fuel, requiring constant resupply. Delivering the fuel to where it is needed requires soldiers to protect the ferrying convoys, and costs both money and lives.
Hence Burke’s job: to find and support efforts like this one:
In Afghanistan, a company of soldiers is testing energy-saving technology in a frontline situation, relying on solar panels on tents, solar-powered lights, and stand-alone solar panels to recharge batteries — together cutting the company’s generator fuel consumption from 20 to 2.5 gallons a day. That drop means fewer fuel convoys which, in that part of Afghanistan, are almost certain to be attacked.
This, of course, runs directly counter to what Real Americans know about energy. Part of the GOP conspiracy to accelerate the decline and fall of the United States includes a state-by-state level assault on alternatives to fossil fuels.
__
Against such purity of purpose, what is one to make of the reckless liberalism of that well-known hotbed of hippie fervor, the Pentagon’s inner rings? Well — our Galtian overlords know what dangers lurk in the heart of reality’s liberal bias:
The Senate confirmed Burke to the job in June, after she came under initial fire from Oklahoma Sen. James Inhofe (R) for her apparent support of a 2007 law that bars federal agencies from buying alternative fuels that have higher greenhouse gas emissions than conventional fuels (ClimateWire, March 25).
Props to the Obama administration and to the DOD for taking action here…and, as always:
__
Factio Grandaeva Delenda Est.
Image: Jacopo Tintoretto, Young man in a gold-decorated suit of armour, 1555-1556.
stuckinred
I hope they aren’t “testing” that shit in the bush. That’s what stateside is for.
jonas
Of course the Pentagon also takes global warming seriously, so between that and this solar power scheme, the whole military appears to have been taken over by pansy socialists.
Mnemosyne
Driving into work today, I saw that even regular unleaded is now up over $4 in LA County. I’ve gotta get my bike washed and lubed this weekend so I can ride to work at least a couple of days a week.
cyntax
So the military has a liberal bias now.
Who knew?
Dave
Hippie soldiers…
The tunnel-vision the GOP has on this issue is astounding.
stuckinred
@Dave: There were plenty of us once upon a time. FTA!
The Ancient Randonneur (formerly known as The Grand Panjandrum)
Hippies running the Pentagon? What next? Homosexuals openly serving in uniform?
wenchacha
I hope that the soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are at least using foam cups and plates instead of that pussy degradable shit.
We are Americans, why should we ever have to conserve?
MobiusKlein
@stuckinred: Testing does not mean shit-don’t-work. It means they are field testing it after many years of stateside testing. Likely means they are carrying the fuel AND the chargers for now.
Heck, they probably have to do it anyway for when the sun’s not out.
Yutsano
Oh look, O’Keefe has a new target.
Also: what’s the over/under on calls for her impeachment?
Martin
The US military consumes about as much oil per day as Sweden or the Philippines. Unlike Sweden or the Philippines, the US military is typically driving the stuff in trucks being shot at with RPGs. Cutting that supply chain down ought to be mission #1 for the Pentago.
stuckinred
@MobiusKlein:Yea well it’s always sunny in the Hindu Kush
stuckinred
@Yutsano: That ain’t much info there dawg.
Zifnab
We’ll drop billions of dollars on a new F-35 or a new warship. But coming up with a new battery or a new recharge station is completely off the table.
Remember that, next time a Republican waxes poetic about how the newest military toys are so absolutely essential.
Davis X. Machina
@The Ancient Randonneur (formerly known as The Grand Panjandrum):
Ah, but the uniforms are to die for!
Loneoak
New axis of evil: Sharon Burke, disabled kids, and teachers.
someguy
So she supported a law that would have prevented the Pentagon from buying ethanol? WTF?
trollhattan
@ Tom Levenson
Fascinating and rather scary stuff. And a perfect opportunity to reintroduce our good friend, the Congressman from Exxon, Joe Barton:
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/03/barton-free-market-oil-subsidies-necessary-to-keep-exxon-from-going-out-of-business.php
The Moar You Know
And yet the blood, just like the oil, continues to flow.
soonergrunt
‘Green technology’ has always been something we’ve been after in the military. Every gallon of JP8 we aren’t burning is a gallon that we’re not hauling through enemy territory, and a gallon that’s not sitting around basecamp or in a can on the back of my truck waiting to get ignited and burn like hell or a gallon that’s not being converted into a big heat/noise/sound signature to draw the bad guys’ attention.
And frankly, the less fossil fuel we as a nation uses, the easier it will be to say “so what?” the next time some shit goes down in the middle east.
It wasn’t until about 10 years ago that the Army decided to try to get portable electronics all on the same batteries. When I first joined, there were all these different types, many of which only existed in the Army. Today, they’re down to only a few, as the article notes. The article didn’t note that most of these batteries have adapters to use either AA batteries or D-cell batteries in many cases, and whenever possible, small electronics are designed to use AA batteries. The new Joint Light Tactical Vehicle will include a generator separate from the engine that will produce 20kw of power on it’s own and will support a portable recharging unit.
stuckinred
@soonergrunt: Sorta like my M35A1 multifuel!
soonergrunt
@The Ancient Randonneur (formerly known as The Grand Panjandrum): There are specific rules in AR 670-1 forbidding ‘accessorizing’ the Army Combat Uniform, but I fully expect some unit day rooms and Soldiers’ individual barracks rooms to be very well decorated in the near future.
Delia
See, I’ve just never understood this. We got into fighting this Mideast wars to control access to oil and we’re burning up way more of the stuff than if we’d just sat down to negotiate with the bastards.
USA! USA!! USA!!!
soonergrunt
@Zifnab: New batteries and rechargers is being led by the Army and Marines, and they’re doing it under the table. Most of it is re-purposing or altering COTS technology.
Judas Escargot (aka ninja fetus with a taste for bruschetta)
If my theory is correct, next time the GOP gets the Presidency, expect the new SecDef to be instructed to purge DoD of anyone not with the program (likely replacing assets with private contractors).
Blackwater was just a rehearsal.
liberal
Re the military, I think the easiest way to cut usage is (1) stop invading other countries, and (2) slash the military’s size.
stuckinred
@soonergrunt: Yea, like this brain bucket!
liberal
@Delia:
No we didn’t, at least not Iraq 2003. There’s very little evidence oil had anything to do with it. There’s some evidence Bush’s family (Saddam put out a hit on Daddy!) had something to do with. Finally, there’s considerable evidence that Israel and the neocon agenda had a lot to do with it.
Tim
@soonergrunt:
Such a stupid and jingoistic, formulaic phrase. Duh, the U.S. military, for the most part in the last 15 years, ARE the bad guys.
ANYTHING, including green tech, that makes the obscenely murderous U.S. War Machine work more efficiently, just means that it will invade more countries and kill more people per gallon of gas. What? You think the Pentagon is going to turn the money they save on fuel back over to the treasury? hahahahahahahahaha
I WANT war and insanity to be as fuel inneficient and expensive as possible.
Poopyman
@Delia: Apparently you understand it very well. What always amazes and depresses me is that we elevate to power certain idiots who cannot see past the end of today, let alone the end of the week.
stuckinred
@Tim: That’s for guys like you to worry about.
soonergrunt
@liberal: water is wet, dirt is dirty, chicks and ducklings are cute.
mclaren
How about this for reducing energy usage? Disband 80% of the the U.S. army and the U.S. Navy and the U.S. air force.
Shut it down.
Then don’t deploy what remains unless there’s a specific direct immiment threat against U.S. soil.
When Al Qaeda lands storms our beaches with landing craft, that’s when we deploy the U.S. army. When Al Qaeda’s air force starts strafing runs on the White House, that’s when we deploy our air force. When Al Qaeda mighty fleet of dreadnoughts starts shelling the port of San Pedro, that’s when we deploy our navy.
Otherwise, fuck it.
Brigadier General Smedley Butler, USMC.
soonergrunt
@Tim:
You’re right, Tim. That IS a stupid, jingoistic, formulaic phrase.
Martin
@liberal: So you don’t think Saddam’s insistence that Iraqi oil be bought in Euros had anything to do with it? The almighty petrodollar continues to keep America afloat.
Brachiator
@stuckinred:
There’s a facility in the Mojave Desert, at Fort Irwin,California, where a lot of this stuff is tested.
I would think that there are other facilities where this kind of testing goes on, as well.
Tim
@soonergrunt:
Why aren’t you serving over in AFghanistan or Iraq, seeing as how you’re a patriotic, military fetishist who supports all the current bullshit? There are still wars going on, you know. Why are you hiding stateside like a little baby?
liberal
@mclaren:
Agreed. Though as long as we’re going to quote people, why don’t we go for the really dead, old, white, European (-descended) ones:
George Washington (from his “Fairwell Address”):
John Quincy Adams:
stuckinred
@Tim: Fucking jackass
liberal
@Martin:
That’s an interesting theory, and there’s some evidence (unlike “oil for American oil companies”). But IMHO the primacy of Israel and Bush’s mental demons are pretty clear.
martha
@Tim: Oh good grief, how old are you? 12? That’s what you sound like.
polyorchnid octopunch
@soonergrunt: It also happens to be true. The obvious implication is that also applies to the American People. Oh, and don’t think you get to point to someone like Ghadaffi to get you off the hook; just because someone else is bad or even worse than you doesn’t magically make you good.
piratedan
@Tim: sorry Tim, I can’t agree with that. They have their job to do just like anyone else, despite how they may feel about it, the majority of them do their level best to do it to the best of their ability. I gotta believe by now, that there are more than a few folks on active duty (most especially reservists) that are more than a little tired of the “mission” and if we could turn back the clock and had someone else in charge, perhaps bin laden would have been caught and Iraq would have been following the examples of Egypt and Tunisia and the voracious suck of military expenditures on our economy wouldn’t have been necessary…
I don’t son’t to give the impression that there aren’t a few neanderthals in the military but I figure its less pervasive than who inhabits the senate chambers.
stuckinred
Oh noze you are dehumanizing people by calling them bad guys.
soonergrunt
@Tim: Well, you stupid shit,
I know, from our previous encounters, that you’re not very bright so I’ll go light on you and point out that you apparently don’t read me except for things to get pissed about. Otherwise, you’d know that I’ve done my time in those places. If you want to scream ‘chickenhawk’ at someone, you should, you know, go find an actual chickenhawk, because otherwise you just sound sad. I suggest you start looking at National Review Online.
Tim
@martha:
Please explain. Military types are always going on about their “service,” for which they were paid a salary and room, board, etc, plus generous pensions upon a very early “retirement” during which they can work another career if they choose.
Please explain why their alleged devotion to the u.s. military and the country for which it invades and kills ends as soon as they can get the hell out?
Why don’t they “serve” until they are no longer physically able to do so?
Seems to me their “devotion” and “patriotism” is very thin.
And idiots like you enable them and the wars they enable.
stuckinred
@Tim: You stupid motherfucker. Only lifers get a goddamn pension but you are too dumb to know that aren’t you?
Loneoak
This piece from Maddow last night on the outrageous usurpation of democracy in the Michigan budget bill really must be frontpaged. Snyder’s budget in MI allows the governor, or his proxy in a private consulting firm (not kidding), to declare any local government “in fiscal crisis” and dissolve that elected government and replace it with anyone he chooses. He would also be able to dissolve all collective bargaining, zoning, and regulations by fiat. Or, rather, the private corporation (Amway? Dow?) that he put in charge of the government could do so.
soonergrunt
@polyorchnid octopunch: Where have I ever mentioned Ghadaffi, or Saddam Hussein or anything like that you stupid bastard? Honestly, please go find a comment by me that says anything like what you are saying. Since you won’t find such, because I’ve never said such, I would hope, after about three minutes of googling, that you’d know that and would be adult enough to state so. I won’t hold my breath. Please save the antiamericanism for the whole group, and don’t engage in personal attacks you can’t support.
stuckinred
A “salary and room and board etc” this guy is a military historian.
Tim
@piratedan:
Please explain to me how this was also not true of Wermacht soldiers in WWII, or of any other army in history that was used for nefarious purposes?
without all the mindless individuals who “serve” and do their jobs not matter what the hell they are asked to do, the U.S. military would not be able to do the horror that it does.
stuckinred
@Tim: The Nazi card! What a brilliant and unique comment.
Omnes Omnibus
@stuckinred: Tim is 1) a troll, 2) an asshole, and 3) an idiot. Don’t waste your time.
soonergrunt
@stuckinred: he likes pie a lot, now too.
stuckinred
@Omnes Omnibus: You at the Capitol?
Social Outcast
This is a good thing. The only time you can have republican support for a progressive tech goal in this country is when the military wants it. If the military was developing a new cannon that could kill people by shooting fetuses at them, republicans would be lining up to fund abortion clinics.
So maybe we’ll see some funding for advanced, lighter solar panels in coming years.
Poopyman
@Omnes Omnibus: Seconded.
stuckinred
@Poopyman: Oh ok then!
soonergrunt
@Social Outcast: I’m all for that. The biggest problems with solar and other technologies are the cost per watt, and the durability of the end product. Perhaps with a little incentive, we can get that price down and durability up to where the average American can pick up a roll at Home Depot, then we can begin to make a dent.
Tim
@stuckinred:
Oh. my bad. But glad to hear it.
Also, this counters none of the rest of what I wrote: Any patriot who supports these wars should be serving in the military or shut the fuck up.
I am also amused to see that you sensitive military cheerleader types already tattled to the moderators. whhaaaaaaaaa.. hahahaha
pussies
Midnight Marauder
Equal parts anemic trolling and inept hilarity.
Tim
@stuckinred:
Is there something untrue about the Nazi statement? My dad was shot down over germany and spent two years in a pow camp. Does that make you idiots hard?
soonergrunt
Contrary to Tim’s inane ramblings, military retirement pay isn’t enough to live on. It’s like that because we get paid about 15% to 30% less than civilians who do the same jobs (in as much as those jobs exist in the civilian world), and our retirement is only half of that.
That being the case, I have to finish up my lunch here, and get back to work at my job. I’ll see you all shortly.
liberal
@Tim:
Exactly.
For example, the invasion of Iraq was an enormous moral crime.
Either the members of the military are moral agents, in which case they share some degree of guilt. Or they’re not, in which case they’re amoral thugs-for-hire.
Tim
@Midnight Marauder:
Typically, you didn’t answer the question. Please do.
stuckinred
@Tim: No it makes you even more of a fucking moron than you appeared to be.
MikeJ
@Social Outcast:
And after production is ramped up to supply the military, we plebes might even be allowed to buy some.
That’s how we all wound up with GPSs in our cars.
Tim
@soonergrunt:
yeah, yeah, yeah…so you say.
Meanwhile, you haven’t explained why you’re not back over in your wars, supporting your country and military, using green technology to save money of course.
Tim
@stuckinred:
so typical of you BJ Kool Kid Warmongers. Lots of vitriol and name calling and bad words, but no coherent rebuttal.
liberal
@stuckinred:
But Godwin himself showed up in Glenn Greenwald comment section and agreed that it’s wrong to make any reference to those particular horrors of the twentieth century off-limits in debate.
The fact is that the Wehrmacht, while not entirely composed to Nazi party members, committed an aggressive war of conquest without which Germany’s crimes would have been restricted to herself. The parallels to the crime of any aggressive invasion are obvious.
Omnes Omnibus
@stuckinred: Not right now. Client’s needs require my attention today. I will be back there as soon as I can. Saturday definitely.
FWIW after 4 1/2 years of Army service, I had a left knee that was messed up and eventually required major surgery, a right elbow that was damaged and will still occasionally give out when I am lifting things, and a variety of other little scars and injuries that I will carry for life. And I had a relatively uneventful term of service.
liberal
@soonergrunt:
I’m sure there are differing studies, but ISTR that once all the perqs are factored in, this isn’t true.
stuckinred
@liberal: please
Tim
@Omnes Omnibus:
Couldn’t you be serving in a desk job capacity, driver, mechanic, cook, something else like that. Couldn’t you be retrained for IT work? It’s not as though the MIC has a shortage of sit on your ass desk jobs.
In this way, it’s likely you could free up an able bodied soldier who could then go serve in the field of our glorious wars.
I’m sure it’s not that you just wanted OUT as soon as you could get out, is it?
Come on, think creatively!
martha
@Tim: Ahhh, you’re one of those. Well, idiots like me are the decendents of people who fought and died for this country over the centuries. We’ve been here a long time, my people. And yes, evil politicians use our military for ill purposes and the past decade has been a black stain on all of us. But that is no reason to deride the service to the country itself.
JD Rhoades
@Tim:
Haven’t heard that one in a while. Or have you just woken up after a six year nap?
Dennis SGMM
If you don’t feed it, it will eventually go back to masturbating itself into a coma.
JD Rhoades
@Tim:
Are you , like some sort of automated trolling program? Because every response you’ve made sounds like it was pre-loaded into a ‘bot that responds with a tired cliche every time it’s triggered.
Omnes Omnibus
@Tim: Disregarding my own advice here, but what the hell… Wasn’t a supporter of the Iraq invasion, so don’t try to pin chickenhawk shit on me. Actually, had I stayed in the military for a career, I would likely be a Colonel in a desk job by now, so that is rather moot. And, yes, I wanted out at the end of my original term of service. It is not a career for everyone.
stuckinred
@Omnes Omnibus: I love it!
Culture of Truth
Assistant Secretary of Defense Sharon Burke.
She works for Obama, which makes her a proxy Kenyan-Marxist.
piratedan
thanks Tim for defining that for me, next will you discuss how black and white people can live in harmony and how we can irrigates the deserts?
Midnight Marauder
@Tim:
The question, much like your typical performance, is asinine.
Tim
@martha:
You’re not a deep thinker, are you? Do you really believe that just because the U.S. military provides the venue for u.s. soldiers to die, that said soldiers are necessarily dying in “service” to this country?
Ummm, as noted above, my father was shot down over Germany at the age of 18, and served two years in a German POW camp before the war was over. God knows what he went thru.
Unlike you, however, I don’t fantasize that what he did then rains down upon me any reflected glory or credibility now.
The fact remains that without mindless people willing to follow any order, armies could do very little. This would be a good thing.
Tim
@JD Rhoades:
Whatever. I notice you did not offer a coherent response to the questions I posed.
Tim
@JD Rhoades:
blah, blah blah…and you still haven’t offered a rebuttal, I notice.
It’s always a corrective, but useful, shock to be reminded how utterly brainwashed in matters of the military are most Americans, even those regularly posting on a supposedly left of center blog like BJ.
cleek
@mclaren:
1000x
stuckinred
@Tim: You say, I say you are a liar making up bullshit to cover your stupidity with pity.
Tim
@Omnes Omnibus:
Wow. that is so weak.
Tim
@Midnight Marauder:
Pathetic dodge.
cleek
@soonergrunt:
yup
Midnight Marauder
@Tim:
No one cares what kind of car you drive.
Tim
@stuckinred:
Hmmm…what details can I offer?
He was radio operator on a B17.
Shot down after just a few runs.
Had never parachuted before the day he had to do so from the plane.
He was artistic and drew many pictures as “requested” by the guards at his camp.
Post liberation, came home on a ship, traveling as slowly as possible, so that the military could pack as many pounds as possible back on the emaciated soldiers and airmen. Didn’t want the home folks to see how close to death the boys had been.
I throw this out there to illustrate that other posters who toss out there service or that of relatives as some badge of credibility are full of shit. What my dad went thru has nothing to do with me. And I am sure he would vehemently disagree with what I am saying here.
And, like you, he wouldn’t be able to back up his opposition with facts or dispassionate rebuttals. He was a product of the mid century American war and propaganda machine. What’s your excuse?
But whatever, you are another one who has not directly addressed the questions I posed above. Apparently, you are unable to do so without exposing your simple minded thinking which basically boils down to
“America, Fuck yeah!”
Tim
@Midnight Marauder:
kind of amusing, actually.
Gene in Princeton
Friends don’t let friends make up Latin.
Tonal Crow
DFH’s what?
Svensker
@liberal:
Crazy talk.
Next.
Judas Escargot (aka ninja fetus with a taste for bruschetta)
@Gene in Princeton:
en signet delicio!
Fuck U6: A More Accurate Measure of the Total Amount of Duck-Fuckery in the Economy
I am always unsure as to why people invoke Nuremburg, as it was only ever victors’ justice.
stuckinred
@Tim: Baloney.
Tim
@stuckinred:
OK, like I indicated, it doesn’t matter what you believe, dipshit. What matters is that you can’t coherently address the points I’ve made. All you have is STFU.
stuckinred
@Tim: So, you are either a liar or a disgrace to your family. . .or both. Way to go/
Mnemosyne
@Tim:
Are you planning to keep your job at Wal-Mart until you drop?
The usual crabs in a bucket bullshit — if I don’t have a pension, then no one should have a pension!
Omnes Omnibus
@Tim: How so?
soonergrunt
@cleek: And here, I must sing praises and hosannas to you to the high heavens again.
Thank you sir, for your own wonderful confection that makes various people both less offensive AND more readable and consistent at the same time.
Tim
@stuckinred:
and…AGAIN you don’t address the topic. way to go
Tim
@Mnemosyne:
Nice misdirection attempt.
Please address the issues of mindless military robot humans enabling huge war machines just long enough to do their obligatory contractual “service, then bail, then claiming untouchable patriot/martyr status for life.
thank you.
Tim
@soonergrunt:
I thought you had to go back to “work.”
Brachiator
@Tim:
What is the point of your so-called argument? If you were master of the universe, there would either be no armies at all, or everyone who joined the military would be a lifer. But you aren’t the master of the universe, so it is rather pointless for you to argue such a standard or to waste time believing that anyone who doesn’t accept your proposition is wrong or misguided.
A trivial observation. It’s too bad that we cannot always get both sides of a conflict to agree with you. Today, right now, people are violently opposing Gaddafi. So, in your universe, since Gaddafi chose to fight back against initially non-violent protests, the opposition should just STFU and accept the status quo ante.
And the world’s reaction to the Rwanda genocide was right and just. Hundreds of thousands slaughtered, but no one should have fought back. No one should have tried to stop it, short of sweet words of admonition.
@Fuck U6: A More Accurate Measure of the Total Amount of Duck-Fuckery in the Economy:
Yeah, them hypocrite belligerent Brits, Yanks, Frenchies and Ruskies just should have negotiated a peaceful settlement with the Axis from the jump. And the idea of war crimes. Unpossible. Since war itself is a crime, it doesn’t matter what follows. Everybody’s a criminal.
Tax Analyst
@Tim:
Yeah, this is just a great example of how NOT to influence folks to align with your cause, ‘cuz nothing makes friends or convinces people to align with you like pointlessly calling them names or questioning their integrity.
Hint: The antidote to stinky bullshit is NOT taking a crap on people and then telling them how bad they smell.
Tax Analyst
@Midnight Marauder:
My dad had one of those once. I think it was a Dodge Stratus. Whatta piece o’crap.
Bubblegum Tate
@Tax Analyst:
“I drive a Dodge Stratus! People fear me!”
Fuck U6: A More Accurate Measure of the Total Amount of Duck-Fuckery in the Economy
Most of your response adresses things that I did not allege. Regardless of the ethics and morality of war in general, the war crimes tribunals as staged by the allies was pretty clearly victors’ justice.
Tax Analyst
@Brachiator:
I’m glad you made this point, because many of our friend Tim’s remarks seem to want to put people who have served in the military into some sort of caste system and then mark them as “unclean” and useless for anything other than serving as future cannon fodder, as though there were a permanent stain tattoo’d upon their souls.
I could be wrong, in which case I apologize, but if I’m not all I can say is that he is no better than the “warmongers” he abhors.
Also:
is a much more erudite and succinct way of saying what I said in a post a few minutes ago.
soonergrunt
@Tax Analyst: Sometimes it’s not stinky bullshit, either. The funny thing is that I was completely unaware that my posting about military use of electricity and batteries and military vehicle specifications required me to be a combat vet, but in Timmaaaay’s world, apparently they do. Actually being a combat vet however, in Timaaaaay’s world is apparently a crime. Considering that his father was one, and the way he refers to his dad, I’d hazard a guess that he’s got some pretty major daddy issues, which he’s transferring onto me, but I’m just a retired grunt with an IT gig, not a psychologist. It does however, speak volumes about Timaaaaay that his very first interaction with me, in fact the very first time I ever heard of the guy, was him attacking me personally.
Maybe he got beat up by a cub scout. Who the hell knows. It got tiresome very quickly.
In any event, I am, and can prove that I am, a combat vet. As if that proves anything at all, other than the fact that I am a combat vet. Timaaaay’s personal issues aside, nobody here BUT him invoked the idea that a vet has any more credibility than anyone else on any issue. I certainly don’t have any more credibility than Timaaaay does when he goes on and on about pies as he just started to do. For all I know, he’s the top pie baker and eater in the country.
stuckinred
@soonergrunt: The combat vet thing is pretty funny. I had an email exchange with Pat Lang a while back about it. I generally consider anyone with a CIB or CAR a “combat vet” but there are also plenty of exceptions. I would never call myself one but the good Colonel insisted that if you were on the ground in the zone you were. The VA appears to agree with him:
Tim
@Tax Analyst:
yes, yes yes…and yet soonergrunt has still not answered my question.
just kind of weird how people here think just saying “I was in the miitary” means anything, other than raising the question “so why aren’t you STILL in the military?”
stuckinred
@Tim: go away shit head
Tim
@Tax Analyst:
Wow, more misdirection that says more about your thinking than mine. please address my question posed to Soonergrunt: why isn’t he/she/it still “serving,” as by its standards that would clearly be the honorable thing to be doing.
Brachiator
@Fuck U6: A More Accurate Measure of the Total Amount of Duck-Fuckery in the Economy:
And so?
That it was “victor’s justice” does not relieve you of the responsibility of considering the ethics of the matter.
Slaves were freed at the end of the US Civil War. Was this also arbitrary victor’s justice? Do you agree with the outcome, or are you outraged that the North would dare impose their will on the defeated Confederacy?
Or do you think that the North should have just left the South alone? No “victor’s justice” if no victory. No victory if no war.
soonergrunt
@stuckinred: I always figured if you had the combat patch on your right shoulder, you were a combat vet. If you were, like I was, stupid enough to join combat arms, and you got the little shiny thing to with the patch, well, good on you, but it doesn’t make us better or smarter, or more honest than other vets, and being vets does not make us better or smarter or more honest than others. It does, however, grant immunity to charges of chickenhawkery, but that and $2.75 will get you a small coffee at Starbucks.
stuckinred
he’s like a little fucking jack russell
Omnes Omnibus
@Tim:
Wow, a statement that makes no sense whatsoever. I am impressed.
Tim
@soonergrunt:
what tripe.
you still haven’t addressed the issue of why you aren’t still SERVING, as that would be the honorable and glorious thing to do, by your apparent standards? There are at least two wars on and you chose to bug out as soon as you could. Why aren’t you at the side of your noble compatriots in the war machine?
I am asking, and you don’t answer.
Tim
@stuckinred:
Hmmm…revealing.
stuckinred
@soonergrunt: They told us we should wear the 7th ID patch on our right shoulder when I rotated from Korea after the Blue House/Pueblo. That along with the red arty rope brought the MP’s flocking at SeaTac on my way home!
Tim
@soonergrunt:
but, but…why aren’t you still “serving?” I mean, it’s the beautiful thing to do, and right and glorious, and two wars still rage and your buds in arms are still risking their lives for Bush’s and Obama’s amazingly successful wars, but you’re apparently stateside. Why is that?
Mike G
A recent Pentagon study revealed that it costs up to $400 a gallon to deliver fuel to some remote locations in Afghanistan.
But Al Gore is fat, so it doesn’t exist.
Tim
@stuckinred:
Michael Jackson liked to wear patches and badges and military braid/rope regalia too…not clear on how many people HE helped kill, though.
Fuck U6: A More Accurate Measure of the Total Amount of Duck-Fuckery in the Economy
Brachiator: I don’t recall the issue of slavery coming up in any particular court or tribunal post-civil war, but the point remains that thereis no overarching basis for convicting anyone of ex post facto laws, as was done at Nuremburg. The tribunals of the Japanese military were even more farcical, as they were quickly shoved under the rug as soon as we realized we needed Japan as a counterweight to the Soviets.
Does this mean that the Nazis were smiley, happy, ice-cream-coney guys? No. But that doesn’t change the somewhat arbitrary nature of the system of tribunals as established.
Tax Analyst
@Tim:
Wait, let me understand this. Are you saying “once a soldier you must always remain a soldier”? Or maybe “Once a soldier you must always remain a soldier to retain your credibility”? If you’re going there I think you have a lot of things twisted in your head. Except for “Life Sentences” nothing is a “Life Sentence”. People who were once soliders really can be something else, if they choose to be. Conversely, some people in the military choose to make it a career choice. I don’t think there is anything intrinsically wrong in either decision, unlike someone making a willful decision to be an obtuse little jack-ass. OK, maybe THAT might be some sort of Life Sentence, but it’s one that is strictly self-imposed.
Fuck U6: A More Accurate Measure of the Total Amount of Duck-Fuckery in the Economy
BTW, Papa Joe was more a “shoot ’em all (no God to do the sorting)” and was more than a little amused at the western Allies’ insistance on the fig-leaf of legality.
Tim
@Tax Analyst:
blah blah blah…
and again, you do not address why these military types like Soonergrunt who makes it known that he allegedly “served,” leave their posts while wars continue and the job is not yet done.
The pentagon and the government pretend that these wars and the humongous military budget are essential. Military people claim their “service” is somehow honorable and exceptional. Yet they leave the military as soon as they can and abandon these extremely necessary wars to the doing of others, all while they are completely able to continue to honorably serve their country.
This behavior is inconsistent with their stated values and that of their beloved military institutions which demand honor from the populace by dint of having merely “served.”
Two wars rage on, nothing has been finished, as was WWII, yet folks like Soonergrunt abandon their military posts and leave the ESSENTIAL duties to others to bear. Seems rather…oh, I don’t know…cowardly, to me.
Fuck U6: A More Accurate Measure of the Total Amount of Duck-Fuckery in the Economy
I should be more clear and add that there were elements of the post-WW II that were firmly grounded in existing internat’l law and laws of war, but several of the elements of the Nuremburg proceedings were quite questionable.
This really isn’t terribly controversial, and the moral and ethical underpinnings of the tribunals in question must be considered quite apart from the moral and ethical questions about war in general. I would not, for example, say that the use of force in defence is (very broadly) immoral or unethical.
Mnemosyne
@Tim:
Please give examples of at least two people outside of your fevered imagination who do that. Otherwise, it’s just another strawman from your endless supply.
Bubblegum Tate
Evidently DougJ needs to start teaching some classes here.
Tim
@Mnemosyne:
hmmm…Soonergrunt for one.
And uh, the thousands and thousands of other military people who get out each year, rather than continue serving the honorable war machine with which they signed up while it continues fighting wars they claim to support.
Like, uh…John Cole until the last few years. Though I doubt he is returning his pension.
soonergrunt
@Fuck U6: A More Accurate Measure of the Total Amount of Duck-Fuckery in the Economy: I’m not quite sure what you’re getting at, but as to the last part, “would not, for example, say that the use of force in defence is (very broadly) immoral or unethical(,)” the Nuremburg Tribunals wouldn’t disagree.
Neither would I.
If you’re saying that International Law, and the Laws of Land Warfare exist mainly to normalize war as the state of things by limiting the excesses and therefor working to make war more palatable as an exercise of Nation-State prerogatives, well–I hope that a) I’m wrong on that point myself, and b) that you were actually headed somewhere else with that thought and c) if you were headed towards the same observation, you’d agree with me that it was a grostesque, if unintended consequence.
Mnemosyne
@Tim:
Because soldiers are not slaves who sign over their entire lives when they sign a four-year contract with the military.
James Carville tells a story about how he refused to re-up in the Marines despite thousands of dollars being dangled in his face because he did not want to go to Vietnam. I’m assuming you follow him from appearance to appearance screaming about how he let his fellow Marines down by leaving the Marines and not going to Vietnam even though his contract was up and he had no further obligation?
Mnemosyne
@Tim:
Funny, I don’t remember soonergrunt insisting that we all bow down and worship him because he was in the Marines and we weren’t. Can you link to his comment where he demanded that?
Tim
@Mnemosyne:
Did James Carville continue to support and enable the Vietnam war?
And…still I can’t get an answer about specific questions.
prufrock
I’m sorry that Tom didn’t dedicate a thread to this (and that this thread is thoroughly trolled anyway) but I’d like to speak to this subject anyway.
About twenty years ago while I was stationed in Okinawa, I read a highly enlightening book called The Soldier’s Load and the Mobility of a Nation. Now, it’s been twenty years, but if I recall correctly the author emphasized that the marching load of a soldier (or Marine, in my case) should never exceed sixty pounds and the tactical battle load (what you carry when actually fighting) shouldn’t exceed about thirty-three pounds.
He provided example after example of the wisdom of this rule, and what happened when it was violated, either at the small unit or theater level. His first best example of an army who did it right? The Romans. Total weight of their fighting kit was about…thirty-three pounds. His first best example of who screwed it up? The United States Expeditionary Force, in WWI. They were initially too loaded down to fight effectively.
I wish I still had the book to find out how much those soldiers and Marines were carrying back then, but I don’t know if it was even as much as the one hundred thirty pounds that they are lugging around now.
soonergrunt
@Mnemosyne: Huh. And here he is going on and on, and you got that out his nonsensical ramblings about pie? Damn, you’re good.
Of course, I spent 22+ years in the Army. Some do make it a career. Some go even longer than that. I never had any issue with the kids who did three-and-out, and I don’t know why anyone would. They did what they agreed to do. I tried to talk some of them into staying in, and some of them I tried to help just make it to normal ETS. Most of them, I just thanked for helping out, and wished them good luck.
Mnemosyne
@Tim:
Please point out where soonergrunt is supporting and enabling the Iraq war, preferably with an answer other than, “He totally is because shut up, that’s why!” Has he been recruiting kids to go? Has he been making appearances at rallies urging people to sign up? What specifically has he done, in your mind, to “support and enable” the war in ways that are materially different than any other blog commenter?
That’s because, as Omnes Omnibus pointed out, your “questions” make no fucking sense.
Tim
@Mnemosyne:
Why would I try to do that? As you know, I never alleged that to be the case. More misdirection and no direct answers.
Fuck U6: A More Accurate Measure of the Total Amount of Duck-Fuckery in the Economy
Soonergrunt: Well, primarily am arguing that the most prominant aspects of Nuremburg (i.e. Crimes against the peace, crimes against humanity) were somewhat sketchy in their basis. A secondary point is that the moral and philosophicaol case for (or against) war as an act is unrelated to the legitimacy or legal-philosophical justifications for the tribunals.
The subtext was the Tim doesn’t put nearly enough thought into his positions so to have a serious conversation on the subject. And he’s a douche.
soonergrunt
@prufrock: It’s piss-poor leadership that doesn’t take advantage of humvees, gator trucks, and other such. They forget that helicopters can deliver ammo, food, and water just as easily as they do other things.
There’s also that whole “when I was a private…” shit that piss-poor leaders like to pull when you ask them how Joe is supposed the haul that load up and down mountains for 10 clicks. Shit makes me crazy. That, and not keeping up with maintenance.
soonergrunt
@Fuck U6: A More Accurate Measure of the Total Amount of Duck-Fuckery in the Economy: I would agree on all points.
soonergrunt
@Mnemosyne: Not to pick a fight, but only a nit, I wasn’t a Marine, although I have known a few. I was a Soldier.
Fuck U6: A More Accurate Measure of the Total Amount of Duck-Fuckery in the Economy
My clarification in regards to international law et al was largely intended to acknowledge that elements of the tribunals were firmly based in previously existing and recognized law, as I realized that was being to broad in my characteriztion of the legitimacy of the tribunals.
becca
I believe our Tim here has some major Daddy issues.
You were a bedwetter, weren’t you? Daddy call you a little pissant all too often?
You never measured up in Daddy’s eyes, poor lamb.
soonergrunt
@Fuck U6: A More Accurate Measure of the Total Amount of Duck-Fuckery in the Economy: OK. I see that.
I don’t think we can ignore the fact that there was a very real political dimension and aim to the tribunals. That aim being to permanently damage fascism as a legitimate form of government, and the tools of fascism as legitimate Nation-State perogatives. I think the main problem with that lies in the fact that that particular lesson has to be relearned over and over and over again. See Bosnia, Kosovo, Lebanon and the Palestinian Territories, Rwanda, Cambodia, and so on and so on and so on.
polyorchnid octopunch
@soonergrunt: you’re missing the point. The US military functions at their level. In fact, since the first Gulf War the US and its military has killed a lot more people than those two worthies you mentioned put together, your hurt fee-fees notwithstanding. You folks are well into the seven digits now and everyone knows it. The US has no moral standing to lecture anyone, and neither do any of its soldiers.
Don’t like it? Too bad. Most of the rest of the west, let alone the rest of the world, is only hoping you only fuck yourselves up when the house of cards comes down, but continue to make nice because they fear you won’t, based on copious evidence of the barbarity of the US’s behaviour abroad as well as at home.
That’s the truth, whether you like it or not.
As long as you continue defending the institution that’s responsible for the deaths of so many innocents, you’re part of the problem.
mclaren
@Fuck U6: A More Accurate Measure of the Total Amount of Duck-Fuckery in the Economy:
This isn’t the real issue with the victor’s justice of Nurember. The big issue is that the victorious Allies in WW II only tried the German and Japanese war criminals, while leaving war criminals like Curtis LeMay and “Bomber” Harris (who ordered the bombing of Dresden) entirely untouched.
To be fair, the Allies committed many fewer atrocities than the Germans or the Japanese. But Curtis LeMay’s nighttime firebombing raids on Tokyo and the bombing of Dresden clearly count as war crimes by any standard.
The atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were special cases and had a legitimate military purpose. Those bombings ended the war, preventing an invasion of Japan that saved untold American lives. No one can be certain how many American soldiers would have died in an invasion of Japan; estimates range from as low as 500,000 to as high as 3 million.
Some of the convictions at Nuremberg remain dubious. Was Albert Speer really that big a villain? All he did was design buildings. Was Alfred Jodl really doing anything much different than his American or British counterparts did? You can argue that Jodl knowingly used slave labor; well, the American generals who knowingly supervised the interments of a quarter million innocent Japanese citizens in Manzanar and other camps were guilty of the same kinds of infractions. These kinds of things happen in total war. Genocide is one thing, but forcibly imprisoning civilians,used forced labor, shooting civilians who violate military curfews…war is very ugly and messy, and those kinds of things happen. It’s really hard to call them war crimes on the scale of the other charges made at Nuremberg.
Mnemosyne
@soonergrunt:
I know — I realized that after your other post. And I know it’s a boo-boo to mix them up. It’s like asking someone in a Steelers jersey if they’re a Ravens fan. ;-)
Fuck U6: A More Accurate Measure of the Total Amount of Duck-Fuckery in the Economy
Off the top of my head I don’t disagree, except to point out that agressive war and slaughter of civilians are solely the prerogative of facism. Furthermore, I would also argue that the legitimacy of that politicaol purpose was weakened by the changing understanding of ‘legitimate’ targets. It is worth bearing in mind that the first nation-state to threatened the nuclear annihilation of civilian population in response to non-nuclear attack was the US. Is this still moral, even as a defensive act?
Mnemosyne
@Tim:
Then your whole rant about former military personnel who demand that you bow down and worship them when they’re really just slackers who left the war before it was over refers to people who don’t actually exist as far as you know?
Yeah, I kinda suspected that.
soonergrunt
@polyorchnid octopunch: How am I missing the point of you making a straw man personal attack and me calling you on it? Nice dodge, shit head.
That’s just sorry on your part, but about what I expected.
You don’t like me personally, and you hate America and Americans who don’t agree with you that we’re all eeeeeevil.
Got it. You, in turn, lack reading comprehension, integrity, and basic personal skills.
Enjoy the pie.
Fuck U6: A More Accurate Measure of the Total Amount of Duck-Fuckery in the Economy
mclaren: what you raise is an issue that pertains to all examples of vistor’s justce (and arbitrariness is always an element of legal systems, how fatally so is the real question), whereas I was trying to get at the weak philosophical underpinnings of specific elements of Nuremburg.
Tim
@Mnemosyne:
You are severely dishonest. I stated that I NEVER alleged that Soonergrunt has demanded any such thing (though he regularly implies it), which I never did.
You are incredibly full of shit and still haven’t addressed my question, which is why is Sooner grunt and thousands of others like him STILL NOT IN THE FUCKING MILITARY?
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne: Hell, I was out of military for nine years before the present conflicts started.
Tim
@becca:
Oh so very typical…DARE to challenge the societal military-worship in this country, and this is what one gets in return.
And still no one answers my questions…
Tim
@soonergrunt:
You don’t like me personally, and you hate America and Americans who don’t agree with you that we’re all eeeeeevil.
And so the true colors are revealed. Those American citizens who do not mindlessly worship the military industrial killing machine are automatically labeled as HATING AMERICA.
Soonergrunt reveals more than he intended.
Oh, and WHY is it that you don’t continue to serve? And how is it that the fact that you got in and got out while the getting was good makes you anything other than a fucking mercenary?
Fuck U6: A More Accurate Measure of the Total Amount of Duck-Fuckery in the Economy
Anyway, thanks for the thoughtful and reasoned responses, my thumbs of fury must retire for the evening. Cheers.
Mnemosyne
@Tim:
Again, I have no idea what this question is supposed to mean. Are you asking for individual stories of why each person left? Are you saying that military personnel should be locked into lifetime contracts and never allowed to leave? Are you saying that, once you take a job, you should never be allowed to change jobs, ever? Are you saying that people never change their minds? What is the question you’re asking?
Given how fervently you seem to be against the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, I’d think you’d be happy that thousands of military personnel are choosing not to re-up and continue to fuel the farce, but apparently you’d rather scream at them for having been in the military at all and demand that they remain there as slaves for the rest of their lives for the mistake of enlisting in the first place.
Also, I think you meant “not still in the fucking military.” Saying “still not in the fucking military” means that they were never in the military but should have been. “Not still in the fucking military” means that they were there at one point but are no longer there.
And, yes, I’m fully aware that I have almost certainly made a grammar or spelling mistake somewhere in here that I won’t find until I hit submit. C’est la vie.
Mnemosyne
I have a feeling that Tim shows up at the meetings of this group and screams at them for being baby-killing warmongers who should have stayed on the job until it was done.
Omnes Omnibus
@Tim: Dude, there is no military worship going on here except in your fevered imagination. People will sometimes mention military experience to explain why they know something about a particular subject. It is same with teachers, bass guitarists, rodeo clowns, and any other profession, hobby, activity.
mclaren
@Fuck U6: A More Accurate Measure of the Total Amount of Duck-Fuckery in the Economy:
Nuclear vs non-nuclear attack is a red herring in WW II. Two of Curtis LeMay’s napalm fire-bombing raids killed more civilians in a single night than either of the atomic bombs dropped on Japan.
The atom bomb yields in WW II were so low and the tonnage of napalm dropped on Dresden and Tokyo was so high than the lethality of conventional weaponry was actually worse than the atomic bombings. To give you an idea of the horror of LeMay’s Tokyo firebombings, the firestorms which resulted produced superheated air so hot that it made wooden houses explode. When women and children ran from their homes into lakes in Tokyo, they still couldn’t escape, because the superheated air from LeMay’s firestorms made the water in the lakes boil and stripped the flesh from their bones as they dove into the lakes.
The entire issue of “defense” seem bogus, since America was never in the slightest danger of invasion from Japan. Hawaii was not a state in 1941; it didn’t become a U.S. state until 1959, so the attack on Hawaii was an attack on a territory occupied by American military forces, but not officially part of the United States. The equivalent today would be an attack on the U.S. airbase at Diego Garcia. That base isn’t on territory that’s part of the United States.
America was never in serious jeopardy of being invaded by either the Germans or the Japanese or the Italians during WW II, so it’s hard to justify America’s involvement as an act of self-defense. That doesn’t seem necessary in any case. America was fully justified in getting involved in WW II in order to preserve civilization from the barbarism of the Nazis or Mussolini or Tojo’s thugs. Read about the Rape of Nanking if you want to know the standards of behavior to which the Axis adhered.
Fuck U6: A More Accurate Measure of the Total Amount of Duck-Fuckery in the Economy
mclaren: Now you are just on your hobbyhorse, as you, like Brachiator, are responding to things that I didn’t say.
chopper
so, to wrap it up, according to tim soonergrunt is a shitheel because while supporting the current bullshit he isn’t still over there, and when asked to point out where sooner actually showed any support for said current bullshit, says that that doesn’t matter.
jesus, our trolls are getting weak.
singfoom
@chopper: Jesus, stop with all that misdirection, why won’t you answer his questions?
Obviously you worship at the giant military death altar (It’s next to the Vietnam Memorial in DC, you just have to find the underground door) and are a chickenhawk and hate America and Apple Pie.
Yeah, we do need better trolls.
mclaren
@Fuck U6: A More Accurate Measure of the Total Amount of Duck-Fuckery in the Economy:
Actually, I think I specifically addressed your remarks when you noted:
Generally, you make good points. At the start of WW II civilian population centers were scrupulously avoided as bombing targets. Then, as time went on and total war became increasingly vicious, civilian population centers were targeted by both sides. By 1945, civilian population centers were being routinely targeted by indiscriminate high-altitude firebombing by the Allies on flimsy pretexts involving “breaking the enemy’s morale.” The definition of a legitimate target had slid down the slippery slope, as you point out, which raises some serious questions about some of the Nuremberg charges.
You could argue that America was defending its transpacific and transatlantic shipping from unrestricted Japanese and German submarine warfare by entering WW II. That would be a form of self-defense. Once again, though, the convoys primarily attacked were lend-lease shipments to Britain, so arguably America was already a belligerent by the time we chose to enter WW II.
Tim
@Omnes Omnibus:
Oh please. Soonergrunt has wood every time he posts in slobbering support of the military’s right to mentally and otherwise torture Bradley Manning, and a hundred other times regarding military matters.
AND…since no one, including Soonergrunt, will explore with me his reasons for no longer serving, I can only conclude that it is because he is a coward and a slacker who chooses to put in some time when it is convenient, get out asap, and leave the fighting to others.
Doesn’t matter if Soonergrunt or his type specifically support the military adventures in Iraq or Afghanistan, they are/were a part of the machine that regularly inflicts military horror on far flung parts of the world, and drains the U.S. treasury dry, partially with his own pension check.
And oh by the way…Bradley Manning is FAR braver, more courageous and honorable than all the armchair warriors like Soonergrunt who abandon what they claim to be an honorable profession just as soon as they possibly can, and who would not dare to raise their voice against any war crime because doing so might endanger their military health care and pension and number of shiny little metal objects they get to wear.
singfoom
@soonergrunt: I think he’s hitting on you.
polyorchnid octopunch
@soonergrunt: And soonergrunt puts his fingers in his ears and goes “lalalalala”.
Svensker
@Tim:
Are you matoko in disguise? The M.O. is very much the same.
polyorchnid octopunch
@singfoom: Oh yes. No question about it.
And you mil loving types complain about the trolls being weak.
It couldn’t possibly be because you’ve been completely stockholmed, now could it.
Here’s the real shame; as your neighbour, I get to look forward to being taken down with you. And yet you still can’t understand the contempt with which the world holds that part of America that you and your ilk represent… a contempt only disguised by the fear that is basically the same as the fear seen in the eyes of the wife and children of the alcoholic abusive husband.
Tim
@Svensker:
Wow. Thank you. I consider that a massive compliment. The second best thing about Matoko is that she makes your gang shit bricks.
So…darn…(blush)…thank you again.
Omnes Omnibus
@polyorchnid octopunch: Where are the mil loving types of whom you speak? This blog does not attract nor keep the kind of person you are describing. Are there a number of people who served in the military who comment here? Yes. Many of them also opposed the current wars or have strong reservations about how the wars have been prosecuted.
Bubblegum Tate
@Mnemosyne:
His protests that soldiers are war-mongering assholes who also fail to do a good enough job at being war-mongering assholes because they don’t do it for life is an odd kvetch along the lines of the classic “the food here is terrible–and such small portions”.
Tax Analyst
@Tim:
OK, I know this is a waste of time, but let me phrase a question to you in the same spirit you address soonergrunt and others who have at one time or another served in the military. Ready? OK, here goes:
Tim, in your honest and obviously sincere and heartfelt opposition to the United States War Machine, what action have YOU taken, other than insulting and defaming others, to put a stop to it?
I was going to put in a number of possible actions you might take, but that wouldn’t match the format or spirit of YOUR one-note question. But in case you hadn’t thought of any ways you could try and gum up the gears of the United States of Warmongers Killing Machine and all it’s little minions, I’ll ask you just ONE of those that came to mind:
Here goes:
Stand in front of any moving tanks or Humvees lately? It might be painful, but just think of all the attention it would draw to you and your cause.
Tom Levenson
Thread jacking. We haz it.
Boy, I get on an airplane for a bit and look what breaks out.
Tim
@Bubblegum Tate:
the only thing worse than obtuseness is DELIBERATE obtuseness at which you apparently, and sadly, excel.
Omnes Omnibus
@Tom Levenson: Sorry, Dad.
Tim
@Tax Analyst:
Cute.
I oppose the machine of which you speak mainly by NOT BEING AN ACTIVE PART OF IT.
Soonergrunt and his type oppose the wars and the machine, if they do at all, by accepting checks from it in “retirement” and serving its ends while in active duty…
…and still no answers to my question regarding military cogs who lack the courage of their alleged convictions…
Tax Analyst
Why am I trying to argue with some bitter, little sick-assed or delusional troll? It is pointless, and can eventually infanticize your own comments when you attempt to make your arguments at a level you think he might understand.
Here – “Timmy, wy dwuncha go fuuk yoresewf? hawah-hawah, goo,goo(drool), goo(drool), goo(slobber-drool)”.
Gawd, that felt good.
‘bye.
Then “A pox”, I say.
JD Rhoades
@Tim:
Because the “questions” themselves weren’t actual questions. They were lame, cliched, bullshit smokescreens by a boring troll.
Tim
@Tax Analyst:
You got NOTHING, do you? Since you can’t bring yourself to do so, I will admit that for you.
Pathetic.
Tim
once again, with the “troll,” the last desperate accusation/name calling cry of the commenter with nothing else in its quiver.
You are likely bored because you are a boring person who only wants to hear what it already thinks echoed back…and yet you reached out to me. That moves me.
And yet…Soonergrunt is afraid to tell the class why he no longer “serves” in his awesomely awesome military machine, other than that he put in his time, or he met his obligations or some such weak bullshit like that. No convictions, no firm, lasting belief system; no, just another spineless mercenary serving the aims of the Koch brothers and Barack Obama.
So noble and patriotic.
Tax Analyst
@Tim:
Oh,yeah, absolutely. Yeah, gotta admit it, you win.
I’m leaving, make sure you cash your chips on the way out and don’t spend them all on the same tube of lube.
soonergrunt
@mclaren: That they were. US vessels in convoy were firing deck guns on German U-boats in 1940. There were reports of US destroyers leaving the outer limits of their operational area–the line beyond which only British Royal Navy was supposed to escort those ships–and hunting German U-boats (rather ineffectively, it was later discovered.)
Bubblegum Tate
@Tim:
Mad that it went flying waaaaaay over your head, huh? Don’t be mad. Just go stand in front of a tank.
soonergrunt
@singfoom: creepy, isn’t it? Having pie filtered him earlier, I don’t know for certain what he’s on about, except from the people who respond to him. I gather I’m supposed to both hate everything about the US military AND stay in it until I either die of old age or get killed or maimed. By extension, I suppose he probably thinks that I should hate myself forever into the bargain. He probably got kicked in the balls by a girl scout in elementary school. It would explain a lot. I still haven’t figured out the strange personal thing this guy has going on. He’s been following me around for a few days now. Strange, in a sad, limp, weak kind of way.
As for the other one, what is it, do you think, with non-Americans who go onto discussion boards primarily occupied by American liberals, looking to tell us (repeatedly) about how evil and pathetic Americans are and how they can’t wait until American society collapses, and not only do they seem to need the Americans to agree with them (which bespeaks some weird personal fulfillment issues), but they’re actually offended and surprised when some of us don’t. I’m still wondering where the damn fool has anything that I ever compared us favorably to anyone. That’s my issue. PO not only brings NOTHING useful to any of the threads it’s (no idea it’s gender) posted on, but says offensive shit for apparently no other reason than to offend, and makes personal statements as if they were fact. Still, in my long history with this name (more than 6 years) it can’t find anything where I said anything like it claims. On GOS, I might have once said that we weren’t as cruel as the Taliban, so maybe I should give it that.
I guess I just attract the weirdos.
Tim
@soonergrunt:
poor little soonergrunt-sucking-on-the-military-industrial-welfare-teet, now he’s a victim.
haahahahahaha
soonergrunt
I have my own stalker. Yay, me! Of course, my stalker just has to be a tweaker with daddy issues.
The cool kids get stalkers who act like characters played by Jeremy Irons or Anthony Hopkins.
I get Charlie Sheen crossed with Jim Carrey.
Tim
@soonergrunt:
Hey SG, why aren’t you still in the military you think so highly of?
And how much is your monthly pension from the war machine, which you get paid for not doing a damn thing?
Still asking the questions, still not getting the answers…
soonergrunt
I like pie, too, Timmaaaaaay, but you don’t see me going on and on about it.