People have been talking about this in the comments all day. I have to run, but this is a good segment.
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Come for the politics, stay for the snark.
I know this must be bad for Joe Biden, I just don’t know how.
If senate republicans had any shame, they’d die of it.
Anyone who bans teaching American history has no right to shape America’s future.
Yeah, with this crowd one never knows.
And now I have baud making fun of me. this day can’t get worse.
Shallow, uninformed, and lacking identity
Infrastructure week. at last.
In my day, never was longer.
Something needs to be done about our bogus SCOTUS.
Optimism opens the door to great things.
T R E 4 5 O N
You cannot shame the shameless.
New McCarthy, same old McCarthyism.
if you can’t see it, then you are useless in the fight to stop it.
You don’t get rid of your umbrella while it’s still raining.
We’ve had enough carrots to last a lifetime. break out the sticks.
Wow, I can’t imagine what it was like to comment in morse code.
Tick tock motherfuckers!
We still have time to mess this up!
They traffic in fear. it is their only currency. if we are fearful, they are winning.
This fight is for everything.
But frankly mr. cole, I’ll be happier when you get back to telling us to go fuck ourselves.
The arc of history bends toward the same old fuckery.
Red lights blinking on democracy’s dashboard
Loneoak
Kain is discussing it on his blog.
This is nothing short of a coup d’etat, and I’m not snarking or exaggerating here. The bill enables the governor to appoint a private company to declare a municipality “in fiscal crisis,” dissolve that municipality and remove by force all the elected officials, and then void all collective bargaining, regulations, and budgets. And we all know how fiscal crisis is being defined these days.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
But the public treasury is on fire! We need to act now, in an enabling fashion.
R-Jud
@Loneoak:
“Anything that doesn’t immediately benefit my campaign donors.”
Bob Loblaw
This is where I’m supposed to be an uber-paternalist bleeding heart liberal and say how sorry I am for Michiganders.
Fuck ’em. Elections have consequences.
The only reason the state doesn’t have 25% unemployment was because of the largesse of the federal government. Big government saved them. And they flipped it the bird and voted in Republicans. That’s pure insanity, and my sympathy is nil.
rikryah
the whole FIRE A TOWNS ELECTED OFFICIALS – how the fuck can that be legal?
Mnemosyne
I have to admit, I’m much more bitter towards the citizens of Michigan than I am towards Wisconsin. They got a huge government bailout that saved their biggest industry and they still voted this guy in by 58% percent to 39%.
Ungrateful motherfuckers are getting exactly what they deserve.
(Updated with link and number correction — Democrat was too low.)
(Update 2: Holy crap, Loblaw and I actually agree on something! The end must be near.)
Linnaeus
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
Beat me to it. This is Snyder’s version of an Enabling Act. Given the big majorities the GOP has in the Michigan lege, I don’t see how this can be stopped outside of simply shutting down the Capitol.
The Ancient Randonneur (formerly known as The Grand Panjandrum)
With no snark intended whatsoever, didn’t someone try this little experiment in 1930’s Germany?
Linnaeus
@Bob Loblaw & @Mnemosyne
My Democratic-voting family thanks you for your caring.
Comrade Javamanphil
I never tire of the GOP’s commitment to the sanctity of a written contract.
rufflesinc
@Loblaw @Mnemsyne
It was embarrassing how hard everyone was fapping to Snyder calling himself a nerd. As a $$ CEO he probably knows better how to screw the little people than the social conservatives he beat out in the primary.
Mr Furious
And then there’s this…
LANSING — One $100 bill could block voters from a chance to stop more than a billion dollars in higher taxes.
Whether you think it’s a dirty trick or a smart move, a House bill to implement Gov. Rick Snyder’s proposal to eliminate tax credits and exemptions contains a $100 appropriation — enough to make the plan immune from a voter referendum.
[…] Lt. Gov. Brian Calley said the $100 appropriation in the 180-page bill is legitimate, and would be increased to cover the cost of implementing the new tax code.
I’m not someone who’s a big fan of referendums, but this is pretty clearly a case of deliberately thwarting the democratic process to force a policy that would surely be opposed by most Michiganders.
FormerSwingVoter
@The Ancient Randonneur (formerly known as The Grand Panjandrum): Dear lord, we’re not even ten comments in and this thread has already been Godwined.
Nim
@Mnemosyne:
Ouch. Some of us were in that 33%, you know. At least shed a silent tear for us? :)
Colleen
@Bob Loblaw & @Mnemosyne
My Democratic-voting family thanks you for your caring.
Yeah, mine too.
Yevgraf (fka Michael)
Robocop wasn’t supposed to depict a real future.
Neither was Rollerball.
I only hope I live long enough to laugh at them over our Soylent Green future.
Martin
Bring it, GOP. Michigan is a battleground state, and you guys can’t help but pull your dick out during the school play, can you? 2012 is looking better and better.
Johannes
@FormerSwingVoter: Bill proposes Government-enabled corporate administration of local government? Godwin’s Law just died.
Linnaeus
@FormerSwingVoter:
I don’t mind a little rhetorical excess in this case, but if you prefer, let’s call it Rick Snyder’s Corporate Monarchy Act.
Mr Furious
Snyder is almost worse than a guy like Scott Walker, because rather than an in-your-face firebrand, he’s a no-tie-wearing “nice guy nerd” stalking horse for the same extreme agenda.
Too many people here are buying into the “Snyder is only doing this because he has to to clean up after Granholm…”
And, like Walker, he has GOP-controlled legislature, so no one is in place to slow him down.
ArchTeryx
And I’m very much trying to convince my Midland-resident, Dave Camp (R-Dow) “represented”, Democratic-voting elderly mother to sell her house while she can and move to Vermont. After this bit of news, she may well start listening.
Mnemosyne
@Linnaeus:
@Colleen:
Better have them move to where you are, because clearly a majority of their fellow Michiganders are determined to leave a smoking hole where the state currently stands.
I know my best friend has been trying to convince her sister to move out here to So Cal from Michigan. This might be the extra push she needs.
wengler
You see Republicans love small government.
They want it to be one person.
Suffern ACE
This is an odd piece of legislation. Just wondering, which city or county or whatnot district is this designed to “take out?” I can’t imagine that the mayor of a city wouldn’t go to court since the governor isn’t the boss of him. So are they just going after Detroit or Wayne county or something, or planning to take out every Democratic leaning town council in the state?
dr. bloor
So I guess we’re all going to become experts on how to recall governors and state legislators for the next few years.
kay
@Linnaeus:
You didn’t vote hard enough :)
What’s it like there? I saw the protest at the state house (I had to look for a photo.
qwerty42
The Freedom Agenda on the march! Only a nazi commie soshulist mooslim union thug could possibly object.
Jeff Spender
@Bob Loblaw:
Fuck you, you fucking bastard. This is where your bullshit starts to wear thin.
What about the people who didn’t vote for this bullshit? The people with common sense in Michigan who knew things like this would happen?
Take your self-righteous nonsense and shove it up your ass.
Loneoak
@Linnaeus:
Seconded. Ya’ll can go fuck yourselves over your firebagging nonsense. My family and my homestate is going to suffer terribly from this budget. I come from a family of loyal Democrats who work in the public sector in a very conservative part of the state, and the best you can do is to shit on that loyalty and say that they “deserve” this.
madmatt
As a michigan resident I can already tell you his first target. The City of Detroit Water Department serves nearly 1/2 the states population…he will sell it to his corporate buddies who willbe able to triple rates on day one and start pocketing the cash!
Remember you saw it here first!
Walker
I feel for you Michiganders, but it is times like this that I am thankful that I live in the original Lansing.
ArchTeryx
@dr. bloor: Most states have no recall provisions in place, including Michigan. Wisconsin is a rare exception to the rule.
Michigan’s fucked.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@rikryah: Because cities exist at the recognition of the state. In the US, the state is really the only level of authority in the state. Cities are really just delegation of powers by the state. A state could theoretically dissolve all cities and there would be nothing wrong with it.
How this reconciles with Republicans “the local level knows best” is that they don’t know the words cognitive dissonance.
Mr Furious
@Mnemosyne:
I’m also in that 33%, and I have a hard time disagreeing with that most days. Be careful, however, voters are at least this stupid, the Dems this spineless, and the media just as much in the tank in every part of the country and you could find yourself in the same position just as quickly.
Napoleon
I would not be the least bit surprised if the Mich Sup Ct declared that this violates some kind of provision of the State Constitution. There just has to be something in it that guarantees a right to vote and you would think that is all they need to invalidate this law.
kay
@Colleen:
I have no intention of abandoning the entire Great Lakes region to conservatives :)
If nothing else, we have to deny them access to all that fresh water. Good God. I can’t imagine. They’re probably selling it as we speak.
madmatt
@Suffern ACE: The city of Detroits Water department is a huge cash cow that will allow his corporate buddies to triple rates to an almost punitive level. Much like privitization did withthe atlanta water system years back.
Jay in Oregon
@Johannes:
People seem to think that means “As soon as you mention Nazis or Hitler, you lose,” but that’s not the case. Godwin’s Law as originally coined was this:
Turgidson
Holy hell. So glad California voted in a mostly sane fashion in 2010. So. Glad.
I do hope this nonsense gets people to wise up to the fact that the GOP are nothing more than crooks who want to return us to the Gilded Age or worse, and that this realization manifests itself in the next couple elections. But I don’t have much optimism. I mean, all the evidence anyone could need was right there in plain sight in 2010 and the knuckledraggers still won smashing victories.
madmatt
@Mnemosyne: Mississippi of the north baby~!
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
I feel sorry for everyone who voted against these people, I really do. I live in Texas: I’ve been watching this for 25 years. Is it wrong to suggest that those in Michigan find a way to thin out the population?
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Yevgraf (fka Michael):
Perhaps it would be better if you didn’t rent A Boy and His Dog, then.
Jay in Oregon
But remember, trying to make sure that people have access to health care is FASCISM!
Napoleon
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
But many states have “home rule” provisions in their constitutions, like Ohio, which means that while in theory you are right there are legal restrictions that keep the state from being able to do that.
ScottRock
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, yesterday Gov. Snyder gave another $10 mil to Pure Michigan. (Pure Michigan is, essentially, a bunch of billboards in Cleveland).
Glad i got out while i could. Next time i visit Amway will probably own half the state.
Linnaeus
@Mnemosyne:
As a born-and-raised Michigander, this pisses me off even more than it does you. Right now, I feel like denouncing my Michigan roots. I totally understand the “let ’em burn” reaction, but as satisfying as that might feel, there’s just too many people who don’t deserve this. In fact, no one deserves this.
As for my family, my mom and stepdad could probably make the move out here to Washington. Dad, I’m not sure if he could afford it out here on his not-that-big union pension (which Snyder now wants to tax)and my 88-year-old vision impaired grandmother would not be able to make this move, certainly not on the portion of my grandfather’s union pension (which Snyder wants to tax) that helps keep her above the poverty line. She’s screwed if this keeps up.
jl
Good clip by Maddow.
My only disagreement is that she pulled her punches at the end. It is not just ‘shock doctrine’, it is the shock doctrine used to enable fascism.
TPM says Orlando, excuse me, I meant Obama, and House GOP are maneuvering to escape blame for likely future fed shutdown.
Prolly a big mess ahead.
Jay in Oregon
@Napoleon:
A quick Googling shows that Michigan has the Home Rule Cities Act, a state law passed in 1909, but I haven’t found anything about a constitutional amendment.
Calouste
@wengler:
One man one vote the Terry Pratchett way.
meh
I imagine that the nanosecond this law is signed into effect, the ACLU and DOJ will have lawsuits lined up with pretty bows on them. This is so blatantly unconstitutional it doesn’t pass the laugh test. Kind of surprised the thoughtful conservatives at Reason and RedState aren’t up in arms about this – imagine Fox news if a Democratic Gov tried this shit.
Linnaeus
@kay:
I’m no longer in Michigan; I moved away years ago for grad school, work, etc. Many of my family and friends are still there, and they’re my primary source of info “on the ground”, so to speak.
agrippa
@Turgidson:
Correct Turgidson. (39)
This sort of behavior should have been foreseen.
The GOP seems to want every state to be like SC, AL or MS.
Linnaeus
@Napoleon:
Hard to say; the Michigan Supreme Court is stacked to the right.
Judas Escargot (aka ninja fetus with a taste for bruschetta)
@FormerSwingVoter:
Dear lord, we’re not even ten comments in and this thread has already been Godwined.
Fuck Godwin.
When you wear the little moustache and goosestep all over the rule of law, guess what? You shall be called on it.
Stephen
@Suffern ACE: Detroit school district would be my first guess. I live here in Michigan just north of Detroit so I hear all this stuff everyday. I just do not buy into Synder’s premise that if we give all the tax breaks to businesses and they produce all these magical jobs, things will turn around because there will be people buying stuff…bla blah blah.
SSDD
John PM
As an Illinoisan, I welcome my Midwest brethren from the surrounding states. Except for Mark Kirk becoming senator, the state is solidly Democratic and should stay that way for the foreseeable future. Governor Quinn is making the hard decisions that these Republican governors are claiming that they are making but in reality are not.
I actually want to start a campaign to have people from Illinois boycott any vacations to Wisconsin, Indiana, Michigan, Iowa and Missouri and stay in Illinois instead. I also want to encourage people from these states to visit Illinois for their vacations.
Napoleon
@Jay in Oregon:
The Wiki article you link to says:
Napoleon
Also this:
kay
@Linnaeus:
Thanks.
You really have to almost admire how brazen they are:
We’ve reached the point where “employees” have to pay “job creators”.
Michael Sheridan
@Napoleon: The Michigan Supreme Court is at least as packed with people to the right of Snyder as the SCOTUS is, so I’m not holding out much hope that his plan will be successfully challenged.
The (sorta) good news is that quite a few of my right-leaning fellow Michiganders seem to be getting extreme cases of buyer’s remorse now that they see what they REALLY bought last November. If my Facebook contacts are anything to go by, the number of folks who are expressing big FU’s to the GOP has risen dramatically in the past couple of weeks. It’s refreshing to see the union guys who’ve been taught by FauxNoise that the GOP is on their side finally waking up to reality.
jl
The commenters here to like to damn whole states for not voting right are fools and losers. They can prate and leer all they want, but they remain fools and losers.
Voters in democracies have acted in largely the same way, since, I dunno, Ancient Greece.
Organizing and motivating voters is the job of those who are active in politics.
The failure to do this task effectively was a serious, and I think it should now be clear, dangerous failure of the Obama administration. Maybe there were excuses for it, or maybe not, but if we are to be reality based people, we do need to recognize it for what it was, a big fat failure.
Anyone active in politics who cares about the future of the country is a fool and failure if they just sit there and do nothing but blame Obama, blame the voters.
You need to work your ass off at the state, local and congressional levels to motivate the voters to get a better outcome next time.
The fools and losers who have nothing better to do that parade their dimwitted self righteous self conceit of superiority at the keyboard should at least make their comments interesting subjects for ridicule, since that is the only value such comments have. Something like stuff I heard from punks when I was in college:
“Wow, myannn, staying home, ordering some pizza and screwing my girlfriend, thats a political statement too, y’know.”
LindaH
@Martin:
Sounds good, but what happens when in 2012 the good Governor decides that due the the “fiscal crisis” there is not enough money to fund the election? Or that it is more efficient to have a corporation run the elections? Or that anyone who is a registered Democrat is ineligible to vote? This is a power grab of immense proportions and if it isn’t stopped has the power to end democracy as we know it. This is seriously scary stuff.
MikeJ
@Napoleon:
There’s the sort of clear headed legal analysis I read the internet for. Somebody will find something surely. Not even the first attempt at whipping out a copy of the document and trying to locate something, just a bizarre statement that somebody else will.
Loneoak
@John PM:
After all, who could choose Sleeping Bear Dunes over Marion?
Johannes
@Jay in Oregon: True, Jay. I was referring to the popular understanding of Godwin’s Law, and should have been more precise. But, in my defense, I had a cat on my lap, and didn’t want her to jump away because I was typing too much (as in fact just happened).
Jay in Oregon
@Napoleon:
I hadn’t read all the way through yet, so there we go.
Turgidson
@agrippa:
Well, I wouldn’t say I foresaw this Michigan madness, but the collective bargaining fight is something that’s been on the GOP’s to-do list for what, 60 years? Taft-Hartley was in 1947 I believe, and it was just the opening salvo. They’ve been trying to beat labor into the ground this whole time – they just took a bit of a break from the public side of the crusade in the 50s and 60s because the headwinds were too strong.
I sure hope they get punished mercilessly for all this overreach, but like I said, not optimistic. The media will run along to a new shiny toy, the GOP will scaremonger about something else, blah blah blah.
Jay in Oregon
@Johannes:
Fair enough. And technically, you were correct in that we did Godwin the thread. :)
Lurker
I have some questions. Will this affect the pensions and health benefits for retirees who worked for the city of Detroit? Will this affect the pension/health benefits of Michigan’s firefighters?
I no longer live in Michigan, but I have many friends and family there.
They all regularly vote for Democrats, too, in case your sympathies hinge upon their political beliefs. (Looking at you, Bob Loblaw and Mnemosyne).
ed
Atrios noted the other day:
See also Nassau County, Long Island.
liberal
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
Nah. That local knows best stuff is just trotted out when convenient. Though I suspect you already know that.
Martin
@LindaH: Well, we’ve got a very orderly court system in this country that will no doubt keep this largely in check. These things never, ever play out as they might appear capable of. This is a political firestorm, not an actual one. Don’t lose sight of that.
madmatt
@MikeJ: AND THE STATE SUPREME COURT IS NOTORIOUS FOR BEING GOP SHILLS.
Judas Escargot (aka ninja fetus with a taste for bruschetta)
@LindaH:
Section 4 of the US Constitution guarantees a republican form of government to every state in the union.
Wonder if that’s useful.
Citizen Alan
@FormerSwingVoter:
When you’ve reached a point where the ruling party prepares to dismantle entire democratic institutions in order to destroy their enemies and perpetuate their own power, Nazi references seem quite appropriate. Is it really necessary to wait until they actually start interning people? Oh wait, Bush set up gulags on three continents and it was still unacceptable to call him Hitler.
Lee
I live in Texas and I actually feel bad for the people in Michigan. I never thought anyone would out-crazy the Texas GOP.
jl
@Martin:
I think it is our job to make it a political firestorm. Anything else is a dangerous foolish and loser strategy.
And not to make it a firestorm is dishonest, if one claims to have any political or ethical principles.
What is going on in Michigan is not some goofball overpaid pundit yakking nonsense, these are public officials who have the power to make laws.
Jeebus, seems like a lot of complacent people with lots of resources to ride out civic messes here. Trust fund cynics, or what?
Mark S.
@Judas Escargot (aka ninja fetus with a taste for bruschetta):
Not really. I would imagine there would be some other arguments one could make.
Mnemosyne
@Mr Furious:
Fortunately, we managed to dodge that bullet in this election. Apparently California only likes celebrity governors who are actual movie stars, not Wall Street celebrities.
And, though I’m sure Brown is going to screw up in many ways, I at least have confidence that he doesn’t have any higher ambitions than fixing the state — any presidential ambitions he had died years ago.
Suffern ACE
(Note to cities in Michigan: Don’t create anything nice for yourselves locally. If it’s too nice, the governor is going to come and take it away and give it to someone else.)
This could be stimulative, of course. If your school district actually is doing well, I recommend burying the schools underground and then denying that you have any. Same with your water supply and county nursing homes. Imagine the jobs spent constructing ways to hide institutions.
Dan
@ed: Nassau is not a good example of this. The County Exec just mismanaged money. No real over-reach.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
OT: GOS has an article up quoting from Forbes, specifically EDK. I’m trying to figure out the best way to write “Thanks to the people at Balloon-Juice, you can actually quote him.”
Svensker
@FormerSwingVoter:
Well, perhaps because this is pretty much straight up fascism? I don’t know what else you’d call it.
Bob Loblaw
@Linnaeus:
Yes, you do.
This isn’t a game. If you genuinely believe that one-half of the political equation in this country are actual, honest to god fascists who will destroy your very way of life, then not availing yourself of all possible remedies to stop them is madness.
No one in the other 49 states is gonna step up and bail you out. You believe that Republicans are fascists? Well, then why’d you vote for them in massive numbers, Michigan? Democracy only works if you take it seriously. You didn’t. You got your ass kicked, Democrats. Not unfairly. Not fraudulently. They straight up whipped your ass, and now they’re doing exactly what you knew damn well they were going to do. Because you didn’t take the fight seriously. If this country is faced with a genuine existential crisis, then you have to be real about it. If one side makes its entire raison d’etre the casual destruction of government services in favor of corporate greed, and your state willingly and enthusiastically votes them in to be your government, you get exactly what you have coming.
Take your responsibilities seriously or shut up.
Martin
@jl:
Oh, I agree. This is yet another incredibly stupid overreach of power. All I’m saying is that nobody should seriously expect Koch Industries to come rolling into town and take the place over. That’s just not going to actually happen, even though it’s not legal to do so.
So yes, make a political firestorm out of it because it seriously deserves that, but nobody should seriously be worried about the people of Michigan.
Mnemosyne
@Lurker:
Oh, I sympathize with the Democratic voters who are getting screwed along with the ungrateful 58%. I feel the same way towards those Democrats as I do towards kids who are stuck in abusive homes — what’s going on isn’t their fault, and when it gets bad enough, the best option is to get them the hell out of there.
ppcli
@Bob Loblaw: Bingo. It is absolutely mystifying to me how anyone in this state could vote for the Republicans after they fought like a sack of drowning cats to prevent the managed bankruptcy for GM and Chrysler. Especially now that GM has used the breathing room to turn things around. If the Republicans had had their way, this state would be an economic disaster zone.
But there are lots of lessons to be drawn from this. One of them is that Democrats who won’t fight for what they believe in, and make a case for Democratic values, will lose. John Engler wreaked havoc on the state for eight years, slashing and cutting. Granholm seemed to think that her mandate was to avoid taking any tough stands or making anyone upset for eight years. I didn’t vote for Snyder, but by the end of Granholm’s stretch as governor I was despairing, because it was clear what was going to happen. It was going to be some Republican or other. If you act like you are ashamed of your own party’s core principles, people will migrate into the camp of the people who seem to be passionate about theirs.
At primary time, almost everyone I know voted on the Republican side, and they voted for Snyder. The reason was that it was absolutely clear that whoever won the Republican primary would become the next governor, and the others were indescribably worse (Mike Cox? Peter Hoekstra? Worse than Snyder on the economic side, and religious fanatics too.)
Violet
@Lee:
The Texas GOP is no doubt jealous of what the Michigan GOP is doing. Won’t be long before Perry and his cronies get something like it passed in Texas too.
terraformer
Damn, am I ever thankful that a couple thousand Minnesotans voted as I did for Dayton. Like most states, Republicans won big here and control the Legislature; at least we have Dayton in the Governor’s house to put a check on these assholes.
El Cid
@Bob Loblaw:
27%
If you’re really optimistic, more like 18-20%.
Studly Pantload
Maddow has become a – *the* – go-to for analysis of the GOP’s power grabs. Sure, her prognostication may be off (she was declaring the unions the winner in their battle with Walker right up to the day before he pulled his legislative stunt), but she’s able to distill the meaning behind ongoing events in a way I don’t see at all on the teevee and rarely even see on the internets. And she deosn’t even have to bring in a talking head to help break it down for her audience – she does that herself.
Martin
OT: Interesting. Another largish quake (6.6) in a 3rd location – to the northwest of the main island. And only one notable quake in the last hour, after them going off every 10-15 minutes since the 8.9 hit.
I wonder if the two new quake locations have finally taken enough of the pressure off.
Mnemosyne
@ppcli:
Borrowing this, because I really think this is why the Blue Dogs got their asses kicked in this last election. If you have a Democrat on one side saying, “I oppose the president’s agenda!” and a Republican on the other saying, “I oppose the president’s agenda!” then why would you ever vote for the Democrat? If nothing else, s/he’s pretty clearly a backstabber since they’re saying they’ll oppose the agenda of their party’s president.
Kay Shawn
Maybe these unbelievable GOP motherfuckers won’t privatize Social Security after they privatize everything else—? Nah.
And I also think that a good number of reg’lar folks wouldn’t mind at all living under real, true fascism [which is certainly coming]—not a bit. That is the scary part. The Goopers are just being themselves. We’re letting them; that’s the true crime in all these events.
Martin
Oh, and some less bad news – it sounds like the troubled reactor is getting some new power cars hooked up right now to power the cooling system. We flew in some coolant via Air Force. So they might have a chance at getting the upper hand on that problem now.
Loneoak
@ppcli: @Bob Loblaw:
That’s a really cruel attitude. When liberals en masse say “fuck the Democrats, they personally disappointed me yesterday” and then say “fuck the voters, they got what they deserved when they voted Republican” then we have gone seriously awry.
David in NY
@Bob Loblaw: Look, Bob Loblaw. Your analysis is the direct parallel of Peter King’s. Yours: “Some Michiganders cast stupid votes in 2008, therefore I condemn all Michiganders.” King’s: “Some Muslims are terrorists …
Just quit being a jerk, OK?
PaulW
If the Republicans have their way, they can use this power to f-ck with county-level elections offices, right?
How can we even be sure of fair elections if Blackwater owns the voting booths?
Violet
Question: Do the people in Michigan and Wisconsin care about what’s going on? Do they know? I don’t mean people who hang out on political blogs, but the average person. Is this stuff getting through?
David in NY
@Martin: Thanks. Less bad seems to be the best we can get these days.
Lee
@Violet:
The nice thing about Texas is that our legislature only meets every other year. They are almost out of time for new bills so they will probably have to wait 2 years.
Jeff Spender
@Bob Loblaw:
This is nonsense. Do you have a tally of all of the Democrats in the state of Michigan? You’re generalizing the entire population into this entity of Michigan, which is just stupid. I don’t see why I should be held accountable for the 58% of the population that voted for this clown. I did what I could with the time I had and I lost. I accept that and the responsibility that comes with that.
However, this is clearly and extraordinary circumstance. I don’t think anyone actually predicted Snyder would make a move quite like this. I followed the election closely and thought we dodged a bullet when Cox or Hoekstra didn’t get the nomination because Snyder, at the very least, seemed reasonable.
I voted Democratic, and I campaigned for them. Of course, I live in the People’s Republic of Ann Arbor, so it was almost guaranteed that most people around me would vote for Bernero.
But to think that we want to be bailed out, or that we don’t think that our state government is our responsibility is just asinine on your part.
Most of the people who were invested in this election took it seriously, including me. You sound like an idiot when you make hugely generalized statement from some kind of pedestal.
Seriously, what gives you the right to pass such judgments?
Judas Escargot (aka ninja fetus with a taste for bruschetta)
@Mark S.:
I would imagine there would be some other arguments one could make.
If it’s really up to the President and Congress to enforce that Article, then Michigan has my deepest sympathies.
So is this how it ends? The Corporatists dismantle what’s left of the State and its protections, and we just sit and watch?
PaulW
@Violet:
Violet: At least in Wisconsin the streets are filled with protesters so yeah. With regard to Michigan, I haven’t seen much in the way of protesting, but I can guarantee you it will pick up the second the GOP Governor tries to close down a Democratic-led city.
The thing I’m worried about with Michigan: how it could affect elections offices. Part of me is thinking “what if that’s one of the government offices that the GOP is looking to shut down?” I mean, they are going after every other elections regulation out there (look at New Hampshire where the GOP is trying to disenfranchise college students).
David in NY
@Violet: Violet, the polls in Wisconsin didn’t show many undecideds or don’t knows about whether they favored Walker’s policies or whether their state senators should be recalled, as I remember. I don’t know about Michigan, but this news seems to have penetrated deeply in Wisconsin.
El Cid
By the way, many, many times I like to say the same thing: If this is what a majority of fuckers is going to vote for, good, this is what you get. You should get even more.
Now, I don’t literally feel this way. I don’t actually want them and all sorts of others to suffer.
But it is something I say to my coworkers or neighbors, etc., because I just get tired of answering their bullshit every fucking day.
I hear their crap, and finally, I say something like, ‘Absolutely! No regulations on oil exploration and drilling anywhere! Go for it! I’m sick of all this pussyfooting around! I think you Republicans and conservatives need to get everything you want, and you need to get it 100%! Fucking do it. Bush Jr. was too damn liberal and there were too many Democrats getting in the way of the Republican-dominated House and Senate. Fine. Let’s get them all out of the way so you can get your agenda complete and total and uncut. No damn restrictions on campaign spending or development or mineral or lumber extraction or fishing, you just all do it voluntary, and if leads to elections being paid absolutely and 100% by a bunch of billionaires and can’t nobody else run, too bad. Eat it up.’
‘If the free market gets you to $1 or $2 an hour, or a day, and Dad or grandpa gets no Social Security ’cause they’ve all been encouraged to invest it in the stock market so as not to be a Ponzi scheme, too fucking bad. Do it. No restraints. No Democrats in the way. Live the whole fucking dream.‘
At which point they at least tend to stop wanting to debate or harass me. I know for a fact that every now and then I prompt them to say how, wait, they don’t want to be extreme, and I just say, ‘Bullshit. All I’ve heard from you people is how Obama rammed all this shit down your throats and was a totalitarian soshullist and whatnot. I’m saying you need to get your dreams that you’re talking about all the time and you need to get it exactly as you want. And then you get to see if you like it.’
I swear that I’ve had a number of conversations just like that.
In reality, that’s just bitching. However, I have known people from 3rd world countries that just want the US to be so weak that they can’t fuck with their country anymore. And so sometimes they don’t mind at all the prospect of the US detonating itself via elections.
Though it would be a great idea if somehow magically the really hardcore right wingers could be whisked to an imaginary land in which they get to live out their preferences.
Even if they were magically whisked back, I’m pretty sure that a good chunk of them would be scared straight.
Omnes Omnibus
@Violet: Short answer, yes. A hundred thousand people don’t just appear in Madison from nowhere. Schools were closed. Yeah, people know.
agrippa
This is, obviously, a power grab; essentially, a coup d’etat. I used to live in MI. The GOP there is fully capable of this sort of behavior. To think that they were not is blind and deaf.
I presume that MI will still have an election in 2012.
PaulW
By the by, I do personally blame the 2.5 million voters in Florida who elected Rick “JOB KILLING MEDICARE FRAUD” Scott. I just hope to God Scott gets arrested for something before he makes things worse.
Elia
I’ll be as happy as anyone to bust out the f-word when it’s appropriate but until Snyder starts sending in the 1988-1990 Bad Boy Pistons to break up town halls and hospitalize union leaders, we’re going to have to settle with calling this simply brazen corporatism.
Colleen
Hey Kay, I have no intention of leaving my state, I love it here. It was Mnemenee or what ever their comment name is who suggested we leave our own state. I’m no quitter and I’ll fight to the bloody end.
celticdragonchick
@The Ancient Randonneur (formerly known as The Grand Panjandrum):
Yes. The asshole with the little mustache used emergency decree powers to eviscerate what was left of the Weimar Republic in about 6 months.
Linnaeus
@Bob Loblaw:
First off, I no longer live in Michigan and I don’t vote there, so I’ll be spared the ill-effects of Snyder’s reign. But a lot of people I know, including much of my family still do, and they did take their responsibilities seriously in the 2010 election. They didn’t vote for Snyder and tried to convince others not to vote for Snyder.
I would also ask you sincerely not to tell me to shut up. I know what my responsibilities are and I exercise them regularly where I live.
Violet
@PaulW:
But it’s MADISON where the streets are filled with protesters. Madison is well known as liberal and has the University as well. How many of those protesters are students? Are there protests elsewhere? Milwaukee? Green Bay? I dunno…any other places? Do people in those cities and towns know and care?
I just don’t have a sense of it. I have seen polls, but that doesn’t turn into people voting, people protesting, etc. People have to be willing to do the work and stand up for something. We haven’t done that for a long time and I don’t know if we can do it now. I don’t know if people actually care. Maybe they think it would be good if a corporation ran their city. Heck, corporations are “efficient,” right? That’s what we’re told.
piratedan
@Comrade Javamanphil: well unless that is a union contract… right?
celticdragonchick
@Judas Escargot (aka ninja fetus with a taste for bruschetta):
Yep.
martha
@Omnes Omnibus: So, ya goin’ to the tractorcade tomorrow? We are, of course. Heck, my CSA’s tractor will be there!
Mr Furious
@Jeff Spender: I’m in Ann Arbor as well. I think the fact that Snyder lives here in town did a LOT to mask his true identity.
The media and far too many Michiganders were perfectly willing to tag him as “A Republican from Ann Arbor is pretty much a Democrat anywhere else.”
I left the state for N.C. for two years, so I missed the tail end of Granholm’s run, but the writing was on the wall for a long time that she was handing off to a Republican. They had successfully hung everything that went wrong in Michigan—even if it was a result of a national problem—clearly around her neck, and she and the rest of the Democrats did nothing to push back.
Violet
@Omnes Omnibus:
Were schools closed across the state? It’s the STATE VOTERS that elected the Governor, not just the voters in Madison. According to Wikipedia, there were over 200,000 people in Madison in the 2000 census. Even if the population has shrunk, there are still probably at least 100,000 Madison residents who could come out and protest. That doesn’t mean the rest of Wisconsin agrees with the protesters.
I am hopeful that people are starting to see what the GOP is and is doing, but I’m not holding my breath. A few protesters in “liberal Madison” do not a state-wide movement make.
Anya
@Bob Loblaw: I absolutely agree with Bob Loblaw (there is a first time for everything, I guess). Fuck the fuckers who voted for this corporate tool. They deserve what they got. Let them experience the full craziness of corporate governance.
jl
The CA GOP are capable of a MI style coup too. They would try to be more clever about it, probably. They are expert at money shuffling, so I think they would not try to completely upend local government, but would institute obscure money shuffling procedures to achieve the same end.
Why enrage local voters by making the existence of their local governments subject to the whim of the governor, when you can just take the money. The shell of local government will be there, but will be able to do nothing.
Thanks, Lil’ Petey Wilson for making the CA GOP a permanent minority.
Omnes Omnibus
@Violet: Madison has 258000 residents. You can bet that not all of them came out to the protests. I have seen, met, and talked with talked with people from all over the state as they surrounded the Capitol. For the most part, the protests have taken place in Madison, but that does not mean that only Madisonians were protesting.
ETA: Yes, schools have closed at times all over the state. There have been actions taking place in a number of cities to drive the recall efforts forward as well.
jl
People should check political blogs with news, like TPM. Polls show that WI voters as a whole agree with Madison.
piratedan
@Linnaeus: now you guys are getting a taste to feel what its like being a Democrat in Arizona…. you spend half the time pissed off and half the time exasperated.
Loneoak
@Elia:
Would never happen, unless the town halls were stuffed with the 1988-1990 Chicago Bulls.
Poopyman
Anybody know which town Ted Nugent has dibs on?
The Moar You Know
@Bob Loblaw: I totally agree with everything you’ve posted in this thread. Dems fucked up big time. Consequences will be paid.
So, how do we mitigate those consequences, because there are a lot of folks in these states who did all the right things, voted the right way, and they don’t deserve what is going to happen to them.
We need a plan B, since plan A didn’t work. Where the fuck is your plan B? I don’t have one, either, but I’m sure thinking hard about it, because if the only “plan B” is “sit on our asses and tell the poor fuckers who live in Governor Hitler’s state that they deserve everything fucked that’s about to happen to them” then we all deserve to get bent over and reamed with no lube, because that, my friend, is not a plan. That’s just being a gloating, smugger-than-thou asshole. And we need a better solution than that.
Violet
@Omnes Omnibus:
I appreciate your on-the-ground reports. I just wish I had confidence that all the protests mean something is going to happen. At this point I just feel like the GOP is going to take and take and take until eventually there is going to be some kind of class war revolution. There’s a lot of downside to revolution.
Omnes Omnibus
@Violet: 100,000 people is not a few protesters.
Jules
When will someone punch Dylan Ratigan and the stupid people on his show?
Linnaeus
@piratedan:
I’m in Washington (have been for the past 11 years) where Democrats do better over all than in Arizona. I get your point, though.
Corner Stone
I hope the Michiganders here remember this feeling the next time this blog trots out the “Can we make Texas secede?!” BS.
Corner Stone
@Jules: Ratigan may be the most hit or miss host on MSNBC. He’ll get going, calling out evil corporations and then WHAMMO, some false equivalence or just outright bullshit will kill it all.
Omnes Omnibus
@Violet: I know you don’t mean to do so, but you hare starting to sound concern trollish. People besides me have pointed to a number facts indicating that the issue is statewide and that sentiment is with the unions.
Corner Stone
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
Do you mean because he was a FP’er here with a lot of clicks to his tripe, or because he skimmed off some nuggets of truth after people relentlessly shamed him?
Violet
@Omnes Omnibus:
I realize that. I should have put that statement in quotes because I was trying to convey that “a few protesters” is the sense I’ve gotten of it from watching the news. Online information conveys a different sense, but people like me, who live far away from Wisconsin mostly aren’t going to be following this kind of thing closely. And so I’m wondering how closely it’s being followed in other parts of Wisconsin.
I really hope it’s the start of something. I’m just feeling discouraged. Sorry for being a downer.
Bob Loblaw
@Jeff Spender:
Either you believe in majoritarian representationalism or you don’t. You don’t get to believe in it when you win and abandon it when you lose.
Decisions are made by those who show up. The voters who showed up voted Republican. Hard. That’s their business. Next time, find more and better voters.
Democrats get elected to expand civil rights and reform the bureaucracy. Republicans get elected to strangle civil rights and abolish the bureaucracy. If this isn’t clear to voters, if they can’t be bothered to give a shit to protect their livelihoods with all the seriousness and intensity that that entails, then yes, they get exactly what they deserve. There is no culture of victimhood allowed in a land of free and fair elections (which I’m assuming Michigan in 2010 counted). The national Republicans publicly shouted to the heavens that they would have poisoned the lifeblood of your state and left it for dead. The state voted for them anyway. The end.
Bob Loblaw
@Jeff Spender:
Either you believe in majoritarian representationalism or you don’t. You don’t get to believe in it when you win and abandon it when you lose.
Decisions are made by those who show up. The voters who showed up voted Republican. Hard. That’s their business. Next time, find more and better voters.
Democrats get elected to expand civil rights and reform the bureaucracy. Republicans get elected to strangle civil rights and abolish the bureaucracy. If this isn’t clear to voters, if they can’t be bothered to give a shit to protect their livelihoods with all the seriousness and intensity that that entails, then yes, they get exactly what they deserve. There is no culture of victimhood allowed in a land of free and fair elections (which I’m assuming Michigan in 2010 counted). The national Republicans publicly shouted to the heavens that they would have poisoned the lifeblood of your state and left it for dead. The state voted for them anyway. The end.
E.D. Kain
This is totally insane.
Loneoak
In all the smug griping about who deserves what from a government they may not have voted for is lost the simple fact that this law is literally a coup. All the downstream effects are just that: downstream. They suck, but regardless of whether they are deserved, this law is not about what is fair all things considered, it is about what is democratic. Every American should be pissed as hell about it on simple principle.
agrippa
Snyder can be recalled
Violet
@Omnes Omnibus:
I’m not trying to concern troll. I hope it goes well, turns sentiment away from the Republicans and is the beginning of something big. But I’ve been disappointed before, so I’m skeptical. I have seen the polls, but sustaining the momentum is going to be a challenge. What’s the saying, “A week is a long time in politics.” The 2012 election is a very long way away by that measure. I hope the momentum can be sustained.
Midnight Marauder
@Loneoak:
But in all seriousness, if you are voting Republican this day in age, this is EXACTLY what you are going to get. It is not some kind of fucking mistake; it is not an accident. This is who they are and this is what they do, ad infinitum.
If you go around voting for a bunch of know-nothing nihilists, you sure as fuck get what you earned. And when you don’t go out and do the work to motivate people as to the actual stakes of the election they need to participate in, this is what you earn.
The people of Michigan may not have gotten what they deserve, but they sure as fuck got what they earned.
gnomedad
Governor Palpatine loves democracy.
Pangloss
These new Republican Governors are NUTS. I keep imagining them sitting at their desks trying to see how long they can hold their hand over a candle.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Bob Loblaw:
This. A majority, or at least a plurality, clearly prefers a good rodgering at the hands of Republicans. Let ’em have it.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Corner Stone: The latter. I think most of us still remember his first few posts here.
Linnaeus
@The Moar You Know:
I appreciate your more nuanced perspective on this.
In the interest of turning down the heat a bit, and finding some common ground, let me say (again) that I understand the temptation to say “fuck ’em” in a collective sense when you’re faced with an electoral result that’s a recipe for disaster. I was asking my friends & family in MI “what the hell is wrong with people?” days after the election and I got a series of answers none of which fully answered the question but which made clear that there’s a lot of work for the Michigan Democratic Party to do.
I also agree that when you lose elections, that means you have to deal with a lot of shit that you wouldn’t have if you won. So yes, that does mean that Michiganders are going to have to find a way next time around to clear out the right wing and remedy the damage. But there’s a qualitative difference between saying, “You lost, you made mistakes in losing, and there are consequences.” and saying “You deserve what happens to you because you failed.”
In case it’s not clear, I’m way, way more displeased with the voters in Michigan who chose Snyder than I am with any commenter on this thread. Really. It’s just that I don’t like the notion that failure in an election legitimates anything that your winning opponent chooses to do, and I was getting a sense of that here.
Martin
Fuck. They’re expanding the evacuation order around the Fukushima-Daiichi nuke plant out to 10km. It was at 3km. Radiation levels may now be 8x higher than normal.
It’s going to be fucking hard to move people with as torn up as that coast is, and it doesn’t sound as though they’re getting things under control.
Just Some Fuckhead
Voters are like junkies, going back for that sweet sweet Republican fix that leaves them near death with oozing scars and a fried mind.
Dexter
OT: BBC reporting that….(1)The Tokyo Electric Power Company has said radiation may already have been released at the Fukushima-Daiichi nuclear plant.
(2)Japan’s Prime Minister Naoto Kan has just announced that residents living within 10km (6.2 miles) of the Fukushima-Daiichi nuclear station must evacuate their homes.
(3)Radiation levels at the damaged Fukushima-Daiichi nuclear plant are continuing to rise. The Jiji Press news agency says the levels are eight times above normal. Its report also cites a ministry official as saying there is a “possibility of a radioactive leak”.
(4) Meanwhile, officials in Washington have said the US military did not provide any coolant to a nuclear plant in Japan. Earlier, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said US Air Force “assets” had been used to do so.
None of them look very good news to me.
Anon84
Wasn’t the Tea Party about Taxation AND Representation?
djork
OT: Just realized one of our largest clients is owned by Koch Industries. Crap. Serious moral dilemma.
David in NY
I think Loblaw and his cohorts might as well be Republicans. Their solution — Blame Somebody!
I call bullshit. You’ve got a situation. Blaming is a mugs game, because it looks entirely to the past and is usually totally counterproductive. I mean, you think you’re really achieving something by bellyaching to people with whom you ought to be in sympathy for something they had no personal responsibility for?
Fuck the blamers, until they come up with some solution for this lousy situation. If you can’t say something reasonably constructive, shut the fuck up.
Loneoak
From the Michigan Messenger, it looks like the opposition is ramping up in Lansing. Here’s hoping for a Wisconsin-style protest.
And I challenge anyone with the fuck ’em attitude to find where in Snyder’s campaign he advocated for the emergency manager coup. Yes, voters should know that the GOP is slouching toward a teabag-ocracy, but we all already knew that and not one of us could have predicted this variety of anti-democracy the GOP is demonstrating on the state levels.
Bob Loblaw
@The Moar You Know:
The plan should be to deny Republicans the one thing they cannot ever fully purchase: acceptance in common, decent society.
You may catch more flies with honey than vinegar, but you kill more mosquitoes with a fucking bug zapper.
Republican voters must be made ashamed of their behavior. This is difficult in America. Americans do not shame easily, and if they do, they lash out. We still have Confederate sympathizers for goodness sakes.
But the proper response to a Republican voter isn’t kindness, no matter how much you may otherwise like or sympathize with them. No more gentle correction, straight up truth.
“Your actions are harmful to the causes of peace and progress and justice in this country, and I think less of you as a person because of it.” The very word Republican must be made dirty.
Jeff Spender
@Bob Loblaw:
Find more and better voters? Your blind arrogance is stupefying. More to the point, you seem to be arguing against statements I never made, or even implied. I know that electing a Republican is just downright insane, but what would the point of democracy be if people didn’t vote? You seem to take this position that voters had a right way and a wrong way to vote–based on my politics, I believe the majority of voters cast their ballot wrongly, but what you’re implying is something that is the opposite of democracy.
The people voted the way they did, and I must suffer the consequences of that vote as much as they will, even if I didn’t vote for Snyder. Your contempt for all voters and citizens of Michigan is simply amazing. I have no idea where your sense of superiority comes from, but it makes you look small and petty.
The goal is not to antagonize or demonize your fellow citizens, but to convince them that you’re right. When you start to demonize them, you become a monster. You make enemies, and then real problems ensue.
kdaug
@Bob Loblaw: They got electronic voting machines in MI?
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Loneoak:
That isn’t liberalism speaking, it is H.L.Mencken-ism with perhaps a dash of good old fashion Leninist heighten-the-contradictions thrown in for good measure.
People who say that sort of think consistently and with conviction aren’t liberals, nor should be call them by that name. It is bad enough that folks on the Right abuse the term “liberal” and twist it around with malice; could we please try not to do the same on the Left?
Dexter
This is not good. The Kyodo news agency is now citing a safety panel as saying that the radiation level inside one of the reactors at the Fukushima-Daiichi nuclear plant is 1,000 times higher than normal!!!
Martin
@djork: Nah, just raise their rates. Problem solved.
Midnight Marauder
@Jeff Spender:
These are not as mutually exclusive as you are making them out to be. Demonization and outright mockery can be extremely effective tools in illustrating the correctness of your position to others.
And some people have earned their fate of being demonized. For example, Eric Cantor. I will demonize that motherfucker until he dies. Fact.
martha
@Martin: Oh no. This is terrible news. The other plants had issues too, but not as bad as this one (at least the way it sounded an hour ago). I fear we are going to test a worst case scenario, in real time.
djork
@Martin:
If I had the power, I would. However, I guess I could bill a ton of time to them for busy work. Death by a thousand cuts!!!!! *
*Disclaimer: I know this is unethical. Though the Kochs are even moreso, I would never do this. Alas, I am kidding.
Violet
@Dexter:
This is tragically awful. Horrible for the people of Japan and especially those near the nuclear reactor.
kdaug
@Lee: On the one hand, true. On the other, gives ’em more time to screw around with deals on the off-term.
But this shit in MI? Goodhair couldn’t hope to pull it off.
Loneoak
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
I get your point, but we just don’t have that such fine gradations on the left in America. Furthermore, we don’t tend to split up conservatives like that in these comment sections, so I won’t with liberals.
Updated: Conyers raises constitutional questions about the bill.
The Moar You Know
@Linnaeus: I’d like to make the same point. I’d also be OK with all of this “fuck ’em” sttitude if it were only those who had voted for Governor Hitler who had to suffer the consequences. It isn’t, of course. It’s also quite a few relatives of mine, who have always voted straight-line Democratic and who goddamn well have never deserved anything that this fucking lunatic is contemplating unleashing upon the state.
@Linnaeus: Yeah, I’m getting a “well, they failed to stop him, so might as well fire up the ovens” vibe as well. As I said earlier, we need a plan B, because the status quo is not a viable option and laughing at the poor schmucks who didn’t have enough money to flee the state as they get loaded into boxcars isn’t a viable option either.
geg6
@Citizen Alan:
I’m with you, brother. If this isn’t fascism on the march, I don’t know what is.
Maybe today’s American fascists can get their very own category of fascism added to the Wiki. Like all forms of fascism, they believe in certain, invariable principles. But there are many forms, subforms, and variations. But, interestingly, other than the continent of Australia, only North America has not had its own special variation. Guess we do now, though.
giltay
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): This sounds like the ultimate expression of states’ rights.
Mattminus
[for demonstration, Mr. Kinney points a pistol at ED-209]
ED-209: [menacingly] Please put down your weapon. You have 20 seconds to comply.
Dick Jones: I think you better do as he says, Mr. Kinney.
[Mr. Kinney drops the pistol on the floor. ED-209 advances, growling]
ED-209: You now have 15 seconds to comply.
[Mr. Kinney turns to Dick Jones, who looks nervous]
ED-209: You are in direct violation of Penal Code 1.13, Section 9.
[entire room of people in full panic trying to stay out of the line of fire, especially Mr. Kinney]
ED-209: You have 5 seconds to comply.
Kinney: Help me!
ED-209: Four… three… two… one… I am now authorized to use physical force!
[ED-209 opens fire and shreds Mr. Kinney]
Joel
@Bob Loblaw: I guess you disagree with Madison and Adams about that whole “protection from the tyranny of the majority” thing…
Ana Gama
@agrippa: Yes, Snyder can be recalled. It would take 800k valid signatures gathered within 90 days.
JCT
@ed: Been there, done that — our current uber beancounter Dean has decimated my school. Amazing change, lots of faculty leaving, including myself.
The funny thing is that most of us who are leaving are well-funded, we just don’t want to work under these circumstances — our asshole was not counting on this exodus of senior investigators with all of their grants….
Jeff Spender
@Midnight Marauder:
In the context of my debate with Bob, it makes more sense. He seems to be content to demonize all of the voters in Michigan, even those who campaigned and voted against Snyder. That’s not conducive to the kind of political unity that is required to beat the Republicans.
It’s like one of the previous comments said: find us anything Snyder said about implementing anything like this bill in his campaign. You won’t find it.
I really believe that public opinion will turn against him on this. Of course, we don’t have much electoral recourse, but it won’t help him if the electorate is rancorous.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Loneoak:
I’m glad you understood despite all my typos (my writing is usually pretty sloppy but gad that was an ugly comment).
One of my shibboleths is how impoverished our political vocabulary is here in the US. We don’t have words in common useage to talk about socio-econimic class. We don’t have words to properly distinguish between liberals and the Left, or between the various factions on the right. It is no wonder we flounder so much when we can’t even have an intelligent conversation for lack of words to describe what is going on. We are like Eskimos up to our chins in snow and ice and yet we only have one word for cold wet stuff. Jeesh!
dan
As to the “they deserve it” argument, perhaps people in MI were operating on the old (and I mean only about 15-20 years old) premise that if one reasonable party can’t fix many problems, maybe it’s time to give them a break and let the other (somewhat) reasonable party give it a try.
Perhaps they thought they may get a Kemp or Pataki.
Violet
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
This is a really good point. And most of the non-wingnut words have been rendered toxic by the wingnuts and corporatists. Left, liberal, soshulist/ism, workers, working man, unions, communist/ism. All those words are tossed around as epithets. It’s very hard to describe what is happening. We don’t have the words or we can’t use the word without starting a shouting match.
David in NY
@agrippa: @Midnight Marauder:
Oh yeah, that’s really working.
Omnes Omnibus
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: I do think that a recognition of the difference between liberals and leftists would be add to an understanding of what is going on in left of center political arguments these days. If we have, and I think we do, both groups calling themselves liberals, it makes it harder to communicate amongst ourselves, let alone convey a message to moderates and “independents.”
Jay B.
This is and has been class warfare.
Since no one thinks they are poor, but everyone thinks they are struggling, they go with the political brand who gives them someone to blame — teachers, gays, immigrants, muslims, minorities, unions, etc.
The other political brand sometimes talks about hope, but then instead of giving people an alternative narrative — that their problems are largely the result of Wall St malfeasance, banking crimes, health care profiteering, Republican policies, all which are demonstrably true — they tinker at the margins while creating stillborn legislation that barely, if at all, addresses the vast problems we face (HAMP, health care insurance reform that starts in 2014, vague financial regulation reform, an Iraq withdrawal that leaves 50,000 soldiers and contractors in Iraq). This brand has also truly regressive legislation on its record: NAFTA, Welfare Reform, Iraq, the Patriot Act, the Bankruptcy Bill, et. al.
And their actual successes, like the GM bailout and stimulus packages are widely considered failures, either because the GOP is more effective at hate or the message that 10% unemployment could have been worse isn’t all that stirring.
Sure, it’s the best “our guys” can do (all rights reserved, TM, the Balloon-Juice commentariat) but it doesn’t really fucking matter now does it? They had the majority and that’s what they did. Now they don’t and the other side, armed with an actual plan — crush the unions, kill the Democratic Party and funnel wealth to the rich — are accomplishing what they’ve set out to do.
The Democrats, led by the President, dicked around and sought consensus that was never coming, compromised when it wasn’t necessary and never made those responsible for the mess sweat even for a minute.
Thankfully, the unions have made the stakes far clearer than the Democratic Party ever could or ever will. They aren’t afraid to take on the wealthy. They aren’t afraid of articulating a vision. They, at least, will fight when the vast majority of our pathetic Democratic Party continue to seek approval from the malefactors of great wealth.
@David in NY: This is exactly why the Democrats will never be effective.
Ana Gama
@Jeff Spender:
We do! (Another Michigander here.) Snyder can be recalled. We would need to gather 800,000 signatures within a 90 day window.
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/sos/Recall_Procedures2_211779_7.pdf
Midnight Marauder
@David in NY:
You’re right. It is not working because I am just a dude commenting on a blog with no national platform. That in no way means the strategy cannot be an effective one.
This is terribly pithy and pathetic analysis. I mean, do you even want to beat these clowns or do you just enjoy wallowing in the mire of “Democrats are incompetent and keep losing!” Because I would really like to win and I am pretty sure that will require a large contingent of people in this country actively hating someone like Eric Cantor. But, you know, the plan hasn’t worked so far because it has not been created or executed in any meaningful way.
It is almost like liberals enjoy being on the receiving end of regular ass kickings.
David in NY
@dan:
He was in fact pitched as a moderate, and I think that accounts for his wide victory. Maybe it’s too bad that Cox or Hoekstra didn’t beat him in the primary, although at the time most people thought Michigan had escaped the worst (e.g. Sharron Angle) by his nomination.
Things had been so bad in Michigan, a change in parties was all but inevitable.
So where the hell were Bob Loblaw and sympathizers when Snyder was running, I wonder? Pointing out his radicalism? Out in the streets demonstating against him? So easy to blame after the fact, isn’t it, Bob?. A real cheap tactic.
Violet
@Jay B.:
I’m happy to blame the evil corporation, banksters and rich people who don’t pay their way. Whatever party is blaming them I’m happy to join. If a party would figure how to put the blame on those people, they might find themselves very popular.
David in NY
@Ana Gama: Thanks. I thought it wasn’t even theoretically possible (and I’m from there). Guess ’cause it’s hard and never been done, so far as I know.
stormhit
@Mnemosyne:
Asshole, Republicans in Michigan ALL SUPPORTED THE BAILOUT. You have no idea what you’re talking about. You couldn’t run against them on the subject.
Midnight Marauder
@Jeff Spender:
He was running as a Republican in 2010. That was more than enough to deny him a vote. Who cares if he explictly stated he was going to execute a blatant power grab?
Did you expect a Republican running for governor in the last election to turn out to be something other than a corrupt, enabling shitbag of the worst kinds of elements this country contains?
David in NY
@Jay B.: Sorry, don’t get your point addressed to me. Maybe you mean Democrats should be better at blaming Republicans and their ideas, and I’ve got no particular quarrel with that, though I’d call it criticizing and putting forward more attractive alternatives. But standing around blaming other Democrats, especially blameless Democrats, like those who voted against Snyder, is deeply stupid.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yes.
A lot of the firebagger vs Obots contremps on this blog strikes me as classic leftist vs. liberal arguments, the sort of “Do we co-opt and reform the establishment from within or tear it down in order to rebuild something better in its place?” arguments that would be very familiar to many of our predecessors from the 1960s, the 1930s or the 1890s. These arguments would at least have greater clarity (if not greater amicability) if we understood that leftists and liberals are not on the same side. They are natural political rivals and enemies who nonetheless have to work together if they wish to succeed because they share a very powerful and implacable common enemy (the right) which is a grave threat to the programs and agendas of both.
MattR
I think I’m gonna throw out the “fuck ’em. they’re getting what they voted for” comment the next time there is a post up about some state trying to pass some restrictive abortion law.
Jeff Spender
@Midnight Marauder:
No I didn’t, but I don’t expect that the average citizen spends hours a day reading the news and researching local politics to have a firm grasp of this.
That’s what it really comes down to: level of knowledge. I can’t expect most citizens to have the time or energy to do as much information gathering as I do. I come from a family of laborers. They toil in factories and in fields and don’t have the mental or physical energy at the end of the day to go on the internet and dig through the all of the piles of crap on the internet to find the factual information.
I’m not excusing their ignorance, merely explaining it. It’s why I don’t vote Republican, but why I think that some of my family do. The information gap.
stormhit
@Bob Loblaw:
Nothing you’re saying at all resembles what happened in Michigan.
David in NY
@Midnight Marauder:
Well, do you know anything about the other Republicans who were running? Were you even paying attention? (I was.) Snyder looked by far the best of the lot, and I bet he got a lot of votes because of that.
Furthermore, none of you guys have explained exactly how, given the economy in Michigan, the Democrats were supposed to hold on to the governorship. Since you seem to believe in the magic of loudly proclaiming Republicans to be fascists, however, maybe you think that would have worked.
Fat chance, I say.
I am going far away from this circular firing squad you’ve got going for a few days. ‘Bye.
Jay B.
@David in NY:
Democrats blaming Democrats hardly matters, except on this blog. What Democrats don’t do is blame those who are to blame. Largely because they are complicit in the blame. Or they are too nice. Who the fuck knows?
For instance, past a few moments of lip service, they never presented the insurance industry as a big fat fucking target during the health care debate. Who the fuck likes the insurance industry? Well, of course, besides half the Democratic caucus. It’s beyond “memes” and “messages” though, it’s about having a plan and executing it.
What’s the Democratic Plan? What’s it been for the past 20 years? The GOP’s is on display. What the unions are doing is putting the blame squarely where it belongs. They know they are the target and they know enough to return the fire. In that, they are a welcome alternative to the mediocrities who make up “our” brand.
David in NY
@Bob Loblaw: @stormhit: I do believe stormhit has a good point. There’s a lot of whining from people here who don’t know much about the situation.
Corner Stone
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
What I find humorous about this is that virtually all of the “obots” proudly declare themselves to be an “obot”. The “firebaggers” to almost include all, had the sobriquet hung on them by the “obots”. And the epithet expands as needed to include anyone who says something an “obot” doesn’t like.
So when one starts pondering the divide, I think it’s instructive to consider that.
David in NY
@Jay B.: Nothing I said is contrary to what you are saying. Congratulations. Now go found a PAC, collect a billion dollars, and you’re good to go.
Jeff Spender
@David in NY:
I knew I was arguing against the ignorant, but I still wanted an argument.
With all that’s happened in Michigan…I’ll be heading to Lansing tomorrow (my hometown) and joining my friends and family in a few good protests.
Ana Gama
@Midnight Marauder:
I worked for the Dem, but just so you know…Snyder went out of his way to appear moderate. He was pro-stem cell research, for instance. Michigan has a history of moderate Republican governors. Like Bill Milliken, and George Romney. Jennifer Granholm was pretty ineffective, especially when she had a chance to be bold after she won re-election.
Suffern ACE
Personaly, I think this isn’t what you get for voting for Republicans in 2010. I think this is what you get for voting for Obama in 2008 and then following it up by voting for Republicans. They just want to make certain that there is no chance for a mistake like a Democrat to win a major office again, that’s all.
And here I thought that they were my friends.
Jay B.
@David in NY:
This is what I took issue with in your post. I disagree. I think events have proven the opposite of what you think is a “mugs game”. Pretty simple.
Joel
@Corner Stone: In other words, “who gives a shit?”
People have disagreements. That’s life. One of the few positives of being a democrat, in my opinion.
Emerald
@agrippa:
In name only.
Ditto Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida, Indiana, et al. If anyone thinks Republicans are going to allow free and fair elections in their states, especially in 2012, then I have a Detroit Water Department I’d like to sell you.
Bob Loblaw
@David in NY:
Ignorant. And irrelevant.
There is no such thing as a good Republican.
There is no such thing as a good Republican.
There is no such thing as a good Republican.
You don’t like absolutes? Too bad. The Republicans truly are that awful. The individual is irrelevant. The brand is everything. It’s a top-down structure, and the money calling the shots is the same always. It wants the same things always. Don’t tell me about the twentieth century. The twentieth century is dead.
There is no such thing as a good Republican.
Corner Stone
@Joel: Not really the thrust of my post.
Disagreements are fine. Let’s have ’em! But it’s more than disingenuous to perpetuate a load of crap and call it a divide.
People have shifting priorities on many issues but the one constant is that if you say something an obot doesn’t like you are now a firebagger.
Triassic Sands
@Bob Loblaw:
Funny, Bob, I somehow have sympathy for those people who didn’t vote for Republicans in the last election in Michigan. (More for those who voted for an alternative, not so much for people who didn’t vote, although it’s not difficult to imagine that there was no one worth voting for, just the usual Lesser Evil that dominates most ballots these days).
I don’t know you Bob, but unless you live in Wonderland, you’ve certainly lived somewhere a Republican has won office before despite your own vote. Did you take full responsibility for every bad thing the Republican did, or did you feel not quite so responsible because you didn’t vote for the Right Winger.
(Note: Bob, you don’t have to extend all that much sympathy to Michiganders, because only 39.9% voted for the Dem. A whopping big 58.1% voted for the Dictator Snyder. I wonder how they feel now?)
My sister lives in Wisconsin and I feel sorry for her (she hates Walker and the GOP). But can I feel sorry for myself, since I live in Washington and I voted for that spineless POS Christine Gregoire, because she was the Lesser Evil?
Citizen_X
@Bob Loblaw:
Oh, so it follows that, no matter how lame, Blue-doggy, or corporatist, a Democrat is always better, if nothing else then by virtue of voting along with the party that contains non-Republicans, right? Interesting to hear, O-newly-minted Obot!
Tom Q
@Jeff Spender: That’s what I think’s being missed in much of the discussion here. All of us here rate in the top percentile of politically-informed. A good many other voters have vaguer political leanings, and some react primarily to circumstance.
The 2010 midterms were a classic circumstantial election: by economy alone, one of the ten worst midterms of the past century, virtually certain to create significant gains for the out-party. We may not like it, but this is essentially a checks-and-balnce feature of democracy.
The problem is, the GOP as currently constituted is not a within-the-30-yard-lines alternative, but a radical departure. Rather than making the modest corrections for which their November result was a mandate, they’re mostly reaching for Conservative Rapture. Something for which I assume they’ll be harshly punished in ’12, but of course alot of metaphorical blood will be spilled between now and then.
Again, the most-educated among us can think, You should have known Republicans would do this; I certainly knew. But that’s expecting less-politically-sophisticated folk to believe the worst of the GOP, despite that violating decades of tradition (and it running against the more benign campaign rhetoric in which Snyder, Walker et. al. indulged) If they make the same mistake in ’12, have at them. But I don’t think you can say they deserve it today. They were operating on a standard “throw the bums out if times are bad” premise, and got far worse than they anticipated in return.
agrippa
@Emerald:
Emerald, you may be right.
Unless the GOP is stopped in WI and MI.
Ana Gama
Snyder is a weird Republican. He’s never run for elected office before, and although that concerned some, I think it attracted a lot of people because he wasn’t a life-long politician.
He also pissed off his own party right out of the gate. There has been an attempt to get a second bridge to Canada built for several years over the Detroit River. The existing Ambassador Bridge is owned by a billionaire conservative who has bought off the state GOP to kill building the second one. Snyder wouldn’t commit to the bridge during the campaign, but in his SoS address, announced that he was for it and had cut a deal with the Obama administration to get it going. That cheesed the state party big time.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Bob Loblaw: Yer gonna have some trouble making headway with this group of recent ex-Republicans.
Ana Gama
The Democrat who ran against Snyder, mayor of Lansing, Virg Bernaro, never had the funds needed. Plus he was a bit like Chris Christie…a lot blunt, and a bit angry. That turned off a lot of people.
Snyder was cool, calm, detached from the rest of the GOP…he even refused quite a few of the primary debates! That put him in a league by himself.
Bob Loblaw
@Triassic Sands:
I’m living in such an area as we speak. I require no sympathy. I am well versed in the risks and liabilities of America’s two-party state. There’s always next year, as Cubs fans say.
@Citizen_X:
That is a logical fallacy. Claims about Republicans do not have anything to say about the relative merits of Democrats. When both are found wanting, then both must be mocked and derided. Truth is paramount.
Joel
@Corner Stone:
You see the problem, here?
Corner Stone
@Joel: Umm, yes. In fact, I laid out what my contention is.
Midnight Marauder
@Ana Gama:
Gee, I wonder why that could have been…?
Triassic Sands
@Citizen_X:
I’m not going to defend Bob Loblaw’s entire ideology, but “There is no such thing as a good Republican” is as close to an absolute as you’ll find in politics today. By comparison, “spineless Democrat” doesn’t apply to nearly as many Democrats as completely.
I might want to quibble with his wording though. Sure, there are lots of “good Republicans,” in that they adhere to the thoroughly despicable doctrine of modern Republicanism. So, I’d phrase it somewhat differently:
I hedge very slightly by leaving off “All,” but deep down it’s what I really mean and I’m willing to be wrong about the handful of Republicans the statement might not apply to. Sure, there are people like my next door neighbor who refuses to recognize what Republicans have become, and she’s pleasant enough to talk to. But when she votes to elect Republicans, she’s voting for bad people who will do bad things — and, in my book, I’m willing to write her off as a bad person, especially since she refuses to even listen to an alternative viewpoint or look at information that might question her stupidity.
See Part II below.
Triassic Sands
@Citizen_X:
Part II
So, if all Republicans are bad people, does it follow that the Democratic candidate is always better than the Republican candidate? Almost always, especially if you buy into the BJ standard of Lesser Evilness. I’m no fan of the Lesser Evil. It gets us some really horrible Democrats, who act in ways that do great damage to the policies and beliefs that have historically characterized liberalism or progressivism.
If you believe in the fundamental tenets of modern Republicanism and the policies that express those beliefs, then you will kill people because you are greedy. I call that a bad person. Likewise, you are willing to violate fundamental rights of women, because the policies of your party will violate those rights whether you agree with them or not. Some things should be “deal breakers.” I won’t vote for a “pro-life” Democrat…period. Not if that Democrat is willing to translate his/her religious beliefs into public policy. Depending on other issues, I might (and probably would) vote for a pro-life Democrat who doesn’t allow his/her religious beliefs to dictate policy. Vote to make abortions illegal or even more difficult to get (especially for poor people) and I won’t vote for you. Vote to defund Planned Parenthood and I WON’T vote for you…period. Lesser Evil be damned. (And I’m lucky I live in a state represented by two female Senators both of whom support Choice.)
Arclite
Rachel Fucking Maddow. At least SOMEONE is doing real journalism in this country.
Mnemosyne
@stormhit:
So everyone in Michigan thought that their Republicans were different than those mean Republicans in every other state who tried to kill their biggest industry, so it was okay to vote for them?
I hope they’ve managed to figure it out now, or you guys are really fucked.
Citizen_X
@Bob Loblaw:
Oh, bullshit. We aren’t weighing them individually, and sniffing that “both are found wanting,” we’re deciding in a system where one of them will win and will vote with their party. If a) as you said, “There is no such thing as a good Republican,” and b) some Democrats are better, and c) Democrats will (usually) vote with their party, then you must vote and vote for the Democrat, every time, without fail. (Sure, you can occasionally vote for the Libertarian or Green mayoral or whatever candidate, if and only if they stand a real chance of winning.)
See, Bob, you trapped yourself in your own righteous logic. If everyone in Michigan who enabled this disaster should be blamed, then that blame goes first to Republican voters, then to the mushy, low-info “independents,” and then to the Lefty, “Dems suck too!” non- (or Green- or whatever) voters, before you get to the lame-ass Democrats. And that last group includes your type. If it’s “all hands on deck to defeat the Rethugs,” then you don’t get any self-righteous points for lazing smugly in your bunk.
Citizen_X
@Triassic Sands: I’m assuming, for the sake of argument, Bob’s absolutist view of the Republicans.
Edit: I will agree with that view most of the time, but if faced with a truly horrible Dem, as you mention, I might reconsider. Still, I will usually vote for someone who will vote along with the Dems.
Bill Arnold
I have near zero sympathy for eligible voters who didn’t vote. Maybe less than zero. And active partisan loathing for non-Republicans who tried to suppress the Democratic vote.
People who voted for Democrats in Michigan deserve our sympathy though.
urbanmeemaw
@The Ancient Randonneur (formerly known as The Grand Panjandrum): Watch out! As Sherrod Brown found out, connecting dots and citing historical facts can be harmful to your well being.
Bob Loblaw
@Citizen_X:
Nope. Never vote for a candidate of demonstrably low integrity or mental competency. Personally, I’ve never had to deal with that choice. But if I were cursed to live in West Virginia or South Carolina, for example, and was faced with their 2010 Senate races, I would leave that part of the ballot blank. As John Cole would attest, Joe Manchin has proven himself a man of demonstrably little integrity. I have no time for candidates or officeholders like that.
That’s my check on a de facto one party system morally speaking. If that means a Republican wins, so be it. I’ll take that responsibility.
This is where the disconnect comes in with you people. I’m perfectly content to suffer the “go fuck yourself for having abysmal representation, next time make sure your fellow citizens vote better” side of the equation. If the vote was fair, then that’s that. It happens. Life is long and full of irritation. I never went about in pity for myself during the Bush years. If you can’t handle that responsibility because of your own baggage, that’s your problem.
Mnemosyne
I do feel sorry for the Democrats in the state who are going to get screwed, and I don’t blame the people who voted for Democrats for what the result was.
I have absolutely no sympathy for the 58% of the voters who will now start whining about how they didn’t know the Republicans would be bad when they voted for them and the Democrats made them vote Republican anyway. We’re going to start hearing from them sooner rather than later.
Uriel
@jl:
Sorry if someone asked this before- but what the fuck, exactly, is this supposed to mean?
Mr Furious
For all the out-of-state loudmouths that want to declare Michigan got what they voted for, see my comment @118.
Snyder did an excellent job at coming out of nowhere to present himself as practically a third party candidate in the field of GOP theocrat / teahadist primary candidates. He packaged himself as a socially liberal, sensible, pragmatist from Ann Arbor. Beyond all of that, he had another ace in the hole: NOT being a politician in a “throw the bums out,” housecleaning electoral atmosphere.
Mr Furious
Did he fool me and most of the people I know? No. But I spend far to much my time in places like this. I don’t know any Democrat that switched sides, he won on a wave of discontent and highly motivated Republican voters who had waited years to punish Michigan’s version of Hillary (Granholm).
This was versus a Democratic Party that didn’t exactly put an All Star team out in the primary. They weren’t exactly lining up to run into this buzzsaw.
As if that wasn’t bad enough, the media and press in Michigan — NPR affiliates included — gave the election to the eventual GOP nominee a year ago. Once the primaries were over, Snyder was all but declared Governor, with the actual election a mere formality.
THAT’S the fucking climate things were happening in.
Karen
@Napoleon:
I thought the Federal Constitution and the Bill of Rights would invalidate this whole thing but don’t count on the Mich Supreme Court because I’m sure that in that bill is also a proviso where they can fire the Mich Supreme Court.
Loblaw and other PUMA scum like you? Don’t be so smug. Michigan, like Wisconsin was, is the beginning. Don’t think that all the Republicans in politics aren’t meeting to arrange all this so it spreads to every state with a Republican in charge. I’m lucky to be in Maryland, which is a pretty Blue state but I’m not an idiot. All it takes are Jane Hamsher acolytes who decide to teach the Democratic party a lesson and stay home and boom, Sarah Palin is President, all government is Republican and the lesson learned by the Democratic party is that to FDL and KOS, it’s more important to make a point to get perfection than it is to save their state from the kind of miscarriage of justice that is happening today.
To all who stayed home in November because they weren’t “motivated” enough or because they think Obama is the second coming of Satan: DIAF.
To all the people who did vote and got stuck with these dictators, I’m so sorry.
Mr Furious
So, with that plus the background noise from everywhere else in the country, can you begin to understand why Dem turnout was down?
Ana Gama
@Midnight Marauder: Yeah, and I don’t disagree, but what you have to realize is that he was a blank slate. He never ran for public office before, and therefore, had no political track record. It was very hard to convince people to be wary with nothing to point to, especially since Michigan has been in the shitter for 10 years now.
The other thing that did not help those of us who worked for the Dem was the influence of the firebaggers. I worked with a couple others trying to organize WMU students. HA! A lot of them fell under the kos and hamsher spell and were not interested in working for Dems.
Ana Gama
@Mr Furious: Yes, THIS! Your comment at 118 hits the nail.
honus
Fuck Michigan Ted Nugent’s from Michigan. That he, and not Bob Seger is the musical face of the state says it all. Or Wayne Kramer.
Mr Furious
@Ana Gama: Then you must love 228 & 229!
Ana Gama
@Mr Furious: Yes, very much! Thank you.
Thing is I still don’t know what to make of Snyder, totally. This EFM thing sounds like a Dick Posthumus idea.
Bernard
boy, now you people up North are getting a taste of the South. i hope you learn and do something NOW. cause there won’t be a tomorrow. Don’t think you will get a second chance.
the Plantation does not let its’ slaves vote or run away to FREE states.
Sympathy for people who vote Republican is a free trip to Dictatorship.
Watching the dirt getting thrown misses the point entirely. Do you even think you will get a Democrat to stand up the Republican “Party.” Down here the Democrats are only in name only. the MONEY owns the South and always has.
Has anyone read the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, by William Shirer.
the game plan for take over is to get elected and have your supporters change the laws. as just happened in Wisconsin and i gather now in Michigan.
these “Republicans” know what they are doing, and have been doing it for the last 30 to 40 years.
that’s what amazes me. this “game plan” has been gong on for so long now, it’s so obvious. be nice and moderate and then sting like a scorpion who asks the frog to carry him across the river. Why, cause that’s the nature of the scorpion.
Republican have been upfront and honest about screwing America, and the Democrats have been complicit with the Republicans, as a way to get some of the “loot.” by siding with the Republicans. Can i say Obama, Reid and Pelosi, who couldn’t do “anything” without upsetting the Republicans, who never needed 60 votes to do anything.
Lesser of two evils is still EVIL.
hopeless, yes i have lived in the South all my life and have seen how Smart the Republicans are and how DUMB Democrats are “trying to make nice.”
only when Democrats stop “trying to make nice/Bipartisanship” will any change come.
but this may be too late, as Weimar Germany proved. letting the Nazis get in the door of Government was too late for Germany.
i can only hope for America, if i had the money i would be long gone from America. ride out the storm somewhere safer, away from Fascism.
Gus
@honus: Or Jack White or Iggy Pop.
Ronc99
Doug,
Thank you for providing this link to Rachel’s show. I’ve been been busy watching the men’s basketball conference tournaments and would have missed this *gem*. I recommend everyone read Naomi Klein’s “Shock Doctrine” as what the new GOP governor and his parrots are doing in Michigan. It is definitely part of Shock Doctrine and it MUST be stopped!
smedley
@Mr Furious: How many Dems stayed home in 2010 because they were mad that Obama didn’t do their pet project. They’re the ones deserving the kick in the ass for their self centered whining. Same thing in Wisconsin. I won’t vote, that will teach ’em a lesson…
RossInDetroit
@smedley:
Absolutely. When you decide to let someone else elect your governor because you’re in a snit over the president’s performance you’re not entitled to bitch when said governor closes down your town.
smedley
@Turgidson: Firebaggers don’t vote. Teabaggers do.
Guess who wins.
jinxtigr
This is a ‘failings of libertarianism’ argument.
To say people have to be responsible for ALL consequences of their actions because it’s a moral obligation is to assume that people have complete information and are capable of acting consistently with their real needs and desires.
That’s not true, and it wasn’t true in Michigan. People feel betrayed when they’ve made a terrible mistake.
If you allow meatpacking companies to do whatever they want, and people eat infected meat and die horribly, they feel betrayed too. Children die of this, in America. Do you hold them personally responsible for not being able to personally force Con Agra to inspect its food, do you hold them responsible for believing the food they buy for money in a supermarket isn’t going to kill them?
Or do you decide there are some basic assumptions that need to not be vulnerable to ‘mistakes’?
If the Republicans in Michigan decide that in their state, it should be possible to hunt liberals for food, do you say “Oh shit, the people in Michigan made a horrible mistake! And now they have to live with it, or die with it if they’re liberals! Whoopsy!”
Or do you say “That’s not allowed to happen ANYWHERE thank you”, and refuse those guys the power to make such decisions?
This is the same thing. Dissolving towns and cities and selling them off to companies is not something that gets to happen. It’s too damn destabilizing. You can’t undo the damage very well short of nationalizing the companies and going full communist- which is too much of a counter-swing.
Maddow is right, this is not something that gets to happen in America. It undermines centuries of stable society, society that isn’t really feudalism or the Dark Ages.
Anybody arguing the ‘they made their bed now they have to lie in it’ is asking too damn much of people, and society. Your principles have to give way so that society can survive. You’re asking too much.
Xenos
@Judas Escargot (aka ninja fetus with a taste for bruschetta):
I doubt it. If a state where more than half the population is enslaved is considered a republican form of government, then whatever Michigan is turning into will be considered one, too. A quick check of the case law on Art IV S4 indicates that this part of the constitution may be considered unenforceable by the court – that it is so political of a question that the courts can’t decide it.
Mnemosyne
@jinxtigr:
Last I checked, the public doesn’t get to vote for who’s on Con Agra’s board, so you can’t really say they have a lot of say in what Con Agra does. They do get to vote for their governor, representative, senator, attorney general, etc. And if they vote for a governor who promises to “make the business climate friendlier,” and that governor eases regulations on Con Agra that gets e. coli into the food supply, then, yes, they bear a small amount of responsibility for the outcome, because they chose the guy who changed the laws for Con Agra.
This is the point I’ve gotten to: Republicans have been fucking up this country for 30 years. Every so often, a Democrat gets to come in and try to clean up their mess, but as soon as things get even slightly better, the public puts the Republicans right back into office so they can start wrecking things again.
This is, by the way, the story of my home state for the past decade — Republican Pete Wilson screwed things up, so Democrat Gray Davis was elected. But Davis made the mistake of pointing out that the state was in financial trouble and we would have to raise the car tax up to its previous level, so he was recalled and they installed a Republican instead who insisted we could fill the budget hole by issuing bonds.
Now we’re completely fucked, because the Republicans in the legislature absolutely refuse to do anything but cut taxes. We went over 100 days with no budget at all, and the Republican who finally crossed over to stop the furloughs and state office closings was threatened with recall by his constituents. Jerry Brown is going to do his best to get us back on our feet, but I’m afraid that as soon as the state stumbles onto its knees and starts recovering, voters will say, “BO-RING!” and put the Republicans back in power.
As a Democrat, I’m tired of being the clean-up crew. I’m tired of having to be the adult while Republican voters run around insisting taxation is theft! death panels! and we have to try and bail them out every. single. fucking. time. because we can’t let everyone else suffer the consequences of their decisions. Which means they just go do it again, because they didn’t suffer any consequences last time.
And, honestly, I don’t know what to do about it. Republicans provide simple, no-brainer answers for complex problems that will actually make the problem worse, and yet people believe them, because thinking is hard.
I’ve gotta get a passport and move to New Zealand. Living here is making me bitter, and I’m in a blue state.
Chuck Butcher
I
Chuck Butcher
I
Uriel
@Chuck Butcher: Yes, I tend to agree.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@meh:
They’re not up in arms specifically because it’s their side who’s doing this. Their party could propose grinding up newborn children (of liberals, of course) for fertilizer and they would applaud it as a brilliant move, improving crop yields so more people can have food to eat and reducing a societal problem (pesky liberals).
Hitler could only wish for useful idiots like these people. They would cheer their parents being sent to the gas chambers as long as it’s their side who’s doing it.
agrippa
@jinxtigr:
I agree.
I do not know if very many care enough to notice.
polyorchnid octopunch
From the outside looking in, I gotta say that US voters are children. Oh boo hoo hoo I have to vote strategically. Welcome to democracy. Nobody said it would be easy, just better than the alternatives. Oh boo hoo hoo the guy I have to vote for is only marginally better than the guy I really don’t want to see win because he’s an authoritarian religious grifter, and my guy’s just an authoritarian grifter. Guess what, go join a fucking party and start working to sink the grifters and authoritarians before they get on the ballot… and if you lose don’t hesitate to vote for them if they’re better than the alternative, or vote against them if in fact they’re worse. Really all you guys need to grow the fuck up.