First Chunky Bobo, now Bobo:
Yet today, as an impeccably crafted multilateral force intervenes in Libya, certain old feelings are coming back to the surface. These feelings have been buried since the 1990s, when multilateral efforts failed in Kosovo, Rwanda and Iraq. They concern the structural weaknesses that bedevil multilateral efforts. They remind us that unilateralism may be no walk in the park, but multilateralism has its own characteristic problems, which are showing up already in Libya.
Look, I’m ambivalent at best about US involvement in Libya. And, no, I don’t think that “international support” automatically makes the mission awesome.
But I’ll tell you what, if I had spent four years sucking W’s cock about the greatness of going it alone in the quest to spread freedom to Iraq, I would probably shut the fuck about my opinions on the shortcomings of multilateralism.
Just Some Fuckhead
Right?
Christ, these people have no fucking shame. None.
Radon Chong
Slightly OT, but you know how we keep harping on the fact nobody seems to care about the deficit when it come to war? I realized today what is going to happen with that. The talking point is going to be that every dollar spent bombing Libya has to be matched by a dollar cut from domestic spending at home. Just you wait.
Little Boots
We do not know what we’re doing. We really don’t. who the hell has thought about Libya in the last decade? We do not know what we’re doing. And that goes for Obama. definitely.
Little Boots
doug, I expect you to think this through. I do.
Calouste
WWII was also a multilateral disaster. At least it was for the side Bobo would have favored.
Linkmeister
You know what other war was multilateralist? World War II! Remember that group of nations called “the Allies?”
Not to say Eisenhower didn’t have any trouble with Monty, but a coalition got the job done back then, didn’t it, Brooks?
I get tired of some people.
Little Boots
@Linkmeister:
I get tired of warmongers. we do not know what we’re doing. we are playing games. it is truly pathetic. seriously, who on this board has the faintest idea what the hell is going on in Libya?
Comrade DougJ
@Little Boots:
There are lots of reasons to worry about about US involvement in LIbya. I don’t support it personally. But I think that having some degree of international support has to be seen as a plus, not a minus.
Little Boots
@Comrade DougJ:
it’s a plus, if I believed the international community was somehow wise or pure. but I don’t. nobody really knows what they’re doing. they are all just preening. obviously. that is what pisses me off. everyone wants to say, Qaddaffi bad, well so what? what does that get us?
D. Aristophanes
Not to cheerlead the Clintonistas or anything but:
when multilateral efforts failed in Kosovo, Rwanda and Iraq
1. Milosevic got shit-canned after Kosovo
2. There was neither a multilateral or unilateral effort worth a crap in Rwanda, so immaterial to Bobo’s point
3. Iraq didn’t attack us or anybody else from August 1990 onwards, so I guess the multilateral efforts of the ’90s fucking well did work, Bobo, you revisionist shithead
Jim, Foolish Literalist
So….. we’re better off with Iraq poat-Bush than pre-Bush? WHat color is the fucking sun in their world.
Barb (formerly Gex)
@D. Aristophanes: Those things happened in the world where Applebees doesn’t have salad bars. Brooks, alas, does not reside in that world.
Little Boots
it’s not bobo, it’s about us. it really is.
Little Boots
what do WE actually think about foreign policy, and war, and what we are supposed to do? that is the tricky thing. I think Obama made a huge mistake here, and bought into the worst philosophy of what we are supposed to be as a country.
Little Boots
what think you?
wasabi gasp
I’d probably bury a whole bunch of stuff before getting around to my war feelings.
burnspbesq
@Little Boots:
I call. What would you do? Sit back and watch Gadaffi massacre the insurgents?
I have issues with what we’re doing in Libya. Lots of issues. But it is really easy to get tired of listening to people who are just as clueless as I am and too dishonest to admit it.
Yutsano
@burnspbesq: This is the boat. This is me staying in the boat.
burnspbesq
DougJ:
The Times isn’t paying him to shut up.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
Rwanda was multilateral?
America sat that one out.
David Brooks is an Invertor, a sub-species of the vile dementors of Ashkeban. In my Defense Against the Dark Arts of Conservatism course I teach the patronus charm to ward off Invertors. These foul degenerate creatures can only be disapparated with a powerful spell. A good patronus to conjure against the Brooks Invertor would be a grinning Hutu covered with blood and carrying a machete…or possibly Thomas Jefferson or Halle Berry.
Little Boots
@burnspbesq:
We do not get to save the world. it is not a question of who’s clueless. it is a question of what we get to do, as a country. and we do not get to save the world. the reason is that once we start saving the world we start running it. and we do not get to do that. that is the thing. and it sucks sometimes, a lot of times, but we do not get to save everything. it is so much worse when we try to do that. that is Vietnam and everything that flows from that.
burnspbesq
@Yutsano:
And this is me firing a submarine-launched cruise missile at the boat. Just for giggles.
Hey: did I tell you that it looks like the kid will be spending three weeks in Seattle this summer?
patrick II
I think that works just the opposite. Bobo spent four years sucking W’s cock and now he has to justify it, otherwise he might be seen as unmanly and wrong to boot.
Elizabelle
David Brooks is a whore.
Whose columns do not deserve reading.
Suffern ACE
@D. Aristophanes: In the ideal world, the US leaders are such manly men (like PUTIN) who just simply say, “stop that or I’ll shoot”, and the problems are solved. Kosovo was a failure I suppose because for a while, Milosovic didn’t stop.
Our best intervention was Panama. Bush didn’t need nobody’s help in Panama. He said “You go to jail” and no one was hurt because Noreiga was captured with nothing but loud music. Well no one was hurt whose bodies were actually counted at the time or shown on TV. That’s what Brooks seems to be expecting. Those are unfortunately high expectations for a world populated by actual humans and billionaire tyrants.
GregB
Wait, weren’t these tool bags always quick to point out the coalition of the willing aspect of Bush’s Iraq fiasco?
Brooksie, just another revisionist douche-bag.
Yutsano
@burnspbesq: Compromise for the Alvin Ailey school deal? You didn’t, but awesome. I can give him a list of good places to go and better places to avoid.
Little Boots
@Elizabelle:
A whore with a mission, which is so much worse. A whore is okay. A whore that gets to start wars all over the globe is so much worse.
Sarah, Proud and Tall
David Brooks came to visit us at the Shady Pines Home for the Violently Senile in about 2006. He was invited to give a little talk by the Chairman of our management board, Doctor Phelps. This was, of course, despite my strident objections.
His speech was going to be about “Living in the Future Tense” or some such tripe, which I though was a bit rich, given that he was speaking to a group of people who barely remember the past and present tenses, let alone the future subjunctive.
I was selected to meet him, because I had been behaving myself that month. He didn’t seem to recognize me from that embarrassing incident many years before with Ayn Rand. His talk was the usual guff, and he struggled to be heard over the snoring.
Afterwards he was bailed up in the corner by Marge Albrechtson.
Now, Marge is quite doolally. In fact, she’s as mad as a fish. She thinks she is a chamber pot half the time and, I have to say, she’s slightly more coherent at those times. The rest of the day she just babbles a glossolalia mostly consisting of swear words interspersed with farting noises. She also has quite bad incontinence, refuses point blank to wear her Depends, and I had been giving her apple juice all morning just in case of such an eventuality.
Sandra Frazer, Gloria Peters and I were guzzling all the free champagne at the buffet table and ignoring his frantic signals for one of us to rescue him.
Marge burbled away at Davey for at least half an hour before he managed to escape. He rushed up to us, wringing cold urine out of his trouser cuffs, and started to complain bitterly about being forced to listen to the senseless rantings of an incontinent loon.
At which point Sandra Frazer said, “Well, now you know how the rest of us felt.”
He left shortly thereafter.
I did manage to slip some laxatives into his slice of Battenberg cake, which gave me some quiet satisfaction.
burnspbesq
@Little Boots:
So when a popular revolt arises against a piece of shit tyrant, our response must be “sorry, sucks being you, but we’re out of the business of helping people realize their legitimate aspirations in the face of tyranny. Call us after you win, and we’ll help out then.”
That’s about a thousand different kinds of unacceptable.
Inept is always better than amoral. One hundred percent of the time.
Yutsano
@Little Boots:
For some bizarre reason all I could think of was Helen of Troy, and that just made me feel wrong.
@Sarah, Proud and Tall:Applause, good madam. Applause.
The Dangerman
I thought both Iraq and Afghanistan were multilateral affairs involving the Coalition of the Willing. What the fuck is he talking about?
Also, for those interested, “Odyssey Dawn” is the English translation for “Omar Al Mokhtar” (don’t ask me how that translation works or what this historical Dude did for Libya; something important, apparently). I would have preferred calling it “Operation Omar Al Mokhtar” as wingers heads would explode, but we could hose down the sidewalks, etc.
D. Aristophanes
@Suffern ACE: Also, see: Grenada (We went in with 7,050 troops and 12 dogs and left with 7,050, 14 dogs and a basket of plantains. Minus points because six dudes from Jamaica tagged along, though.)
Yutsano
@The Dangerman:
This is just more proof that Allah doesn’t lurve me enough to give me nice things.
Little Boots
@burnspbesq:
100%? really? Have you been in a coma the past 10 years? we have jumped into a lot of shit we should never have been involved in. Do we have to keep jumping?
And if you jump up against a tyrant, great, don’t fuck it up. finish the job. and do not dick around waiting for
America to finish it for you. once we jump in, everything changes, for the worse.
burnspbesq
@Yutsano:
Summer program at Cornish College of the Arts, which is his first-choice school until I can convince him he needs an acadeic degree on top of his dance degree so that he has a career when his dance career ends.
Gian
it’s the no matter what the muslim from keyna who happens to be somewhat darker skinned than most white folks does, it’s wrong game.
there’d be the same fainting-couch pearl clutching act if we had decided to go it alone, just complaining about going it alone, and extolling the coalition of the “willing” (or bribed and threatened)
I still remember the GFY that Turkey gave W.
When it comes to these guys, if Obama cured cancer, they’d bitch about the budget impact on social security of longer lives
burnspbesq
@Little Boots:
Must be nice to be completely unmoved by genocide.
Little Boots
@burnspbesq:
low.
and please define genocide. please.
Suffern ACE
@D. Aristophanes: I always forget about Grenada. Maybe we shouldn’t have told Gadaffi we were planning to attack. Well, I guess it’s too late now. He’s noticed.
Martin
@Little Boots: What are we supposed to be as a country?
Elizabelle
@Sarah, Proud and Tall:
Bravo, Madame.
“Now you know how the rest of us felt.”
hhex65
@Sarah, Proud and Tall: That explains why his security rider for the TED talk was so insane.
Little Boots
@Martin:
Emperor of the Universe apparently. So guess Bush was right. Everywhere we want to get involved, we will. No problem.
Yutsano
@burnspbesq: Well if it’s any consolation they do have a humanities program, plus the way they instruct dance he can always get a master’s in a field like physical therapy and such. He might wake up and figure out that dance is a decent minor in a year or two as well.
fouro
Bobos^2 just have more tiger blood, plain and simple.
Cliff
Oh hey look at that David Brooks is being a stupid fucking asshole about something.
Everyone stop the goddamn presses.
Martin
@Little Boots: True. Our recent intervention in Japan is despicable. I mean, they asked for our assistance and all, but seriously – did nobody consider what our last intervention there wrought? Don’t they have bootstraps there? I mean, it’s not like we made the tsunami… And how many teachers are going to get laid off thanks to the hundreds of millions of dollars we’re wasting there. And what message does this send every other nation that has some kind of disaster?
D. Aristophanes
@burnspbesq: You’re arguing as if the US actually acts when ‘a popular revolt arises against a piece of shit tyrant’. I see no evidence of that ever having happened, with perhaps Kosovo and Afghanistan I (kitting out the Mujahideen against the Soviet-backed gov’t) and II (supporting the Northern Alliance — not a quite a newly arisen popular revolt as of late 2001, but whatever).
It took Pearl Harbor for us to take on the Axis, we actively campaigned against the Vietnamese versus the Khmer Rouge, we did fuck-all to support Aung San Suu Kyi in Burma in 1988, even less in Rwanda and Darfur, and I guess we gave some kind of green light to the Australian-led UN campaign in East Timor, but not much else. We put Lech Walesa on the cover of Time as I recall, though.
So history’s not exactly your friend here.
Little Boots
@Cliff:
It isn’t just him. this kind of thing obviously raises a lot of important questions. burnspeq and I seem to wind up on completely different sides, and yet I don’t think he/she’s some awful person. it’s a pretty damn hard thing. what do you think?
piratedan
well part of this is the legacy of failure of our intelligence services as well. Its hard to make a decision without quality information and worse yet, it appears that hardly anyone knows and if they are, it hasn’t yet filtered out to where folks like ourselves have heard.
Previously on TRMS, Rachael had Richard Engel on again and he offered up some tidbits that there are three possible, potential players at hand… the young adult generation who is following the examples of Tunisia and Egypt but have no military backing or much of anything else except chutzpah, elan and naivete, Libyan military opportunists who could set up a new junta or open the way to who knows what kind of government. Engel also floated the scary remark that as a side note, when the US was encountering foreign nationals in the Iraq conflict, that a majority of them were folks from eastern Libya, maybe that war cleaned out their supply of anti-American zealots but who really knows for sure. He didn’t but his uncertainty regarding who was in charge, from the rebels side, was telling.
Maybe other countries have better intel (absolutely a possibility) regarding the internal workings of the uprising, but as of yet, no one clear leader or group of leaders have emerged thus far. So while we’re preventing a potential massacre of Quaddafi’s enemies, we have little knowledge of how they perceive the US or if they are even in favor of our help much less able to tell us what kind of help they want and or need.
Little Boots
@Martin:
And yet, they didn’t ask us to come in and shoot everyone in sight. weird. it’s almost like this was an actual humanitarian mission and not some civil war we were expected to solve, without having the faintest idea what the hell we were doing.
Joseph Nobles
Juan Cole’s got a great article on why Libya 2011 is not like Iraq 2003.
Cliff
@Little Boots:
Maybe it’s just late, but I’m not following how I suddenly ended up in the middle of your argument.
D. Aristophanes
Oh and we were among the very last of the industrialized countries to keep going to bat for South Africa’s ruling whites when apartheid was keeling over.
Little Boots
@Cliff:
I don’t either. I’m just angry. maybe I should just calm down.
Little Boots
but I would actually like to know what you think about this whole thing.
Comrade Mary
@Joseph Nobles: Juan Cole supports the operation? Seriously?
I am all discombobulated. Also, too, about as torn as Comrade DougJ on the issue.
Little Boots
@Comrade Mary:
that is interesting. juan cole? I still think it’s a huge mistake, but that is really interesting.
Yutsano
@Comrade Mary: The fact that this was too easy a call for Harper to make doesn’t sit well with me. I don’t know who replaced MacKay but my guess is that it’s quite the hawk.
Calouste
@piratedan:
There the National Transitional Council that France and Great Britain have kind of recognized, so it’s unlikely everyone is in the complete dark. Oh, and they explicitly asked for a no-fly zone almost two weeks ago. Maybe you should follow the news before you actually comment on it.
piratedan
well if the Prez says its only gonna be days, not weeks, Then I think we need to take him at his word and see how it plays out. If he ends up selling us le pig in le poke, then we have the right to get indignant, pissy and outraged.
Comrade Mary
Also, I am linking to an article at FDL — I am not making this up — that quotes Juan Cole approvingly and goes further.
I’m going to bed.
Cliff
@Little Boots:
Well, if you’re asking…
I’m pretty fucking pissed that Americans have been told for the past two years that we can’t afford food stamps or teachers or bridges, but suddenly we’ve got a spare billion, at least, to throw down for another war.
Joseph Nobles’ link to Juan Cole at #53 is making me reconsider my thoughts on the intervention.
But it still strikes me that people are dying in conflicts all over the world. There was that huge group of immigrants in Mexico that got tortured and massacred by narcos just a little bit ago.
And somehow, hell if we can lift a finger to do anything about that.
So I still think our presence in Libya is largely due to oil. At the least, we need to have an honest discussion about it, which we’re not getting.
Little Boots
@Cliff:
That’s all I wish. I wish we could debate this kind of thing in Congress, which we don’t get to do anymore. Ya know, the Constitution sorta demands that, at least, but we stopped doing that about 50 years ago, and it pisses me off.
Comrade Mary
@Yutsano: You mentioned Shitface, so I can’t go to bed yet.
Yes, he’s been pushing it, most likely to look strong and human considering the pounding he’s taking in Parliament and the likelihood that the Harper Government (TM) could fall soon. But he took a while to get to that point. He’s been getting crap from people who know a little something about humanitarian interventions, like Romeo Dallaire, who thinks that Harper, like the Obama, dawdled and that the action may be taking place too late.
EDIT: I wrote “look human” above although I meant “look humane”, but both are a stretch for Stevo, so I’ll leave it at that.
Martin
@D. Aristophanes: I love how the foreign policy realists seem to think it’s realistic that we could support the labor movement in communist Poland in the same way that we’re handling Libya.
Rwanda has a population of 10 million. Darfur, 6 million. We have virtually no assets in those areas. There’s nothing for us to bomb. These were entirely hand-to-hand atrocities. The only way to stop those is to put troops between people. Where are we going to come up with half a million troops to do that? Darfur doesn’t even have an infrastructure in which to set chokepoints and perimeters. Are we supposed to send F-16s in to stop guys with machetes on horseback?
It’s not a lack of will to act, but a lack of capacity. Libya is a problem we can solve, at least the immediate issue. Tanks: easy. Horses: surprisingly hard. These were the problems we had with Vietnam. When it came to MIGs, we knew what to do that. When it came to 14 year old kids in tunnels, we were stuck. The only way you solve those problems is to outman them, which we can’t possibly do. And Burma wasn’t going to look any different than Vietnam.
We can’t intervene in Bahrain other than diplomatically, because that’s opening a war with Saudi Arabia, which I hope the ‘realists’ can understand won’t happen. I hope the ‘realists’ also understand that diplomacy with Saudi Arabia is an entirely different endeavor than diplomacy with Gaddafi or whoever the fuck we were supposed to talk to in Darfur or Rwanda.
It’s not a lack of will, but (lesson you’d think we should have learned with Iraq and Afghanistan) if there’s nothing you can realistically do, then there’s nothing you can realistically do. It’s like asking why the US didn’t stop the tsunami from hitting Japan. It’s not that we wouldn’t have done it if we could, but it’s just beyond our means. That’s why North Korea sits there – it’s beyond our capacity to do anything there directly, at least nothing that would have a positive outcome for all around.
Anne Laurie
@Calouste:
Nononono! Our Mister Brooks would have favored the winning side — whichever one that turned out to be — and would have enjoyed a long, prosperous career explaining that evolutionary sociology, Burkean philosophy & advanced game theory all required, nay demanded, that Every Serious Person accede to the inarguable upwards march of Winning Side.
David Brooks is our very own Vicar of Bray:
And this is law, I will maintain
Unto my Dying Day, Sir.
That whatsoever King may reign,
I will be the Vicar of Bray, Sir!
Yutsano
@Comrade Mary:
Now you’re teasing me. Plus that would require Layton checking his ego and Ignatieff to grow a pair. I haven’t seen much evidence of either happening yet. But I admit to not looking at Canadian news lately.
I LOLed. I’m not too proud to admit that.
No, you were right the first time.
Joseph Nobles
@Comrade Mary: Yes, it kind of freaked me out as well. I was on the fence about the wisdom of what we were doing, but I’ve been convinced and thus arguing all day that the action isn’t illegal or unconstitutional. But Cole’s article makes me lean toward the basic good faith effort of what’s going on.
And the thing I keep noticing about Obama: he generally intends to do the things he says he’s going to do, no more and no less. He doesn’t state goals and aspirations lightly. If anyone can keep this action limited in scope for the United States, it’s Obama.
Joey Maloney
@top:
Until you learn how to be not just wrong, but shamelessly so, you will never be considered a Very Serious Person.
hhex65
@Little Boots: Shit, man, not the reductionist argument– bush was right about exactly fucking nothing.
If you feel like most of our armed conflicts have been imperialist wars in all cases I can accept that, so won’t you please try and tolerate some ambivalence on my part.
El Cid
The Libya action isn’t actually multilateral outside the US, UK, and France. Getting the big other two to abstain at the UNSC vote doesn’t count. Some pleading by the GCC and Arab League and their approval and some commitments of a few fighters doesn’t either.
It is what it is. But the notion that it’s something other than a US, UK, France operation is silly.
Little Boots
@Martin:
No. Libya is not a “problem we can solve.” Come on? Do you kmow the slightest thing about Libya? What is it you are going to solve. Stop it. We do not understand this country. Please stop pretending we do. We do not get it. WE DO NOT.
Calouste
@Anne Laurie:
He would have to have done a serious U-turn in late 1942 then. The kind of U-turn that would for most people in late 1942 involve a blindfold and a last cigarette.
piratedan
@Calouste: point taken regarding being informed regarding the council and while the no fly zone was requested about two weeks ago, who did anything about it?
the Arab League?
Italy?
France?
The UN?
the answer, nobody…..
The US stated that while it looked upon the events in Libya with concern and warned Quaddafi regarding his use of force against his people that was a far cry from the US launching cruise missiles, strangely enough, I don’t remember that specific agenda item being in the news and that “kind of recognized” comment, surely warms the cockles of my little heart with clarity.
Little Boots
@hhex65:
It is not about that, and actually I can tolerate a lot of ambivalence on everyone’s part. but this is the same kind of crap that got us into so much trouble the last 10 years. I cannot be the only one who sees that.
James E Powell
@Little Boots:
As a matter of principle or procedure, I’m inclined to agree with you. But then I remember who, exactly, would be doing the debating in congress and I am less inclined.
Little Boots
@James E Powell:
well, I can see that, but the reason we have so many wars is presidents like wars, always. we need to get back to a block on wars. and Congress is the only block.
Suffern ACE
@James E Powell: Whatever is said would be filtered by the likes of Bobo above, and end up being about patriotism and manhood, and whose battle flag gets raised higher. That’s been one of the issues I’ve had with Sully about wanting Congress to vote and go on the record. For a guy whose job it is to read U.S. opinion, he seems very clueless about how unbelievably dumb the people formulating opinions are.
(ETA: And I’m being as charitable as I can be. There might be reasons why he can’t see the dumb).
Little Boots
can’t believe those Atriots. just show up, for god’s sake.
Calouste
@El Cid:
It’s not like the Arabs have that much capability. Qatar is sending over 6 planes and that is about half its airforce.
Also, the preparation for the no-fly zone was to pound Gaddafi’s air defences with cruise missiles. There are only a few countries that have cruise missiles in significant quantities.
burnspbesq
@Cliff:
Which is why I”m so conflicted about Libya. I don’t like sitting around watching people who are trying to build better lives for themselves get slaughtered by a tyrant. But if somebody asks, “If Libya, why not Zimbabwe and Ivory Coast?” I have no morally satisfying answer. And we are a little resource-constrained right about now.
Little Boots
@burnspbesq:
And that’s what pisses me off too. we do not know what we’re doing. we pretent. but we do not actually know. and we’ve been down this road way too many times before.
Parallel 5ths (Irish Steel)
@Sarah, Proud and Tall:
Where you find a certain type of lady, invariably you will find a certain type of cake.
By God, I’m starting to believe you’re for real.
Anne Laurie
@burnspbesq:
Funny, whenever you’re sporting your Lawyer Cred around here, you seem to argue the exact opposite.
D. Aristophanes
Martin – I don’t disagree with you at all. I do get a little tired of hearing accusations of heartlessness when one raises doubts about a particular US military endeavor, e.g. – ‘so when a popular revolt arises against a piece of shit tyrant, our response must be “sorry, sucks being you, but we’re out of the business of helping people realize their legitimate aspirations in the face of tyranny. Call us after you win, and we’ll help out then.”’
Well, that’s an unfair argument, because few war cynics (at least in liberal circles) think in terms of ‘fuck the victims, I got mine’. Instead we think in terms of whether, as you say, we can actually do anything positive or even net neutral rather than make matters worse. And of course, there’s going to be cynicism about our ‘real’ motives, which I think is always healthy but can become incapacitating if you go to far in that direction.
The combination I personally require to support an action is ‘there is something we should be doing militarily to help these people out’ plus ‘there is something we can actually do militarily to help these people out’ plus ‘there is real initiative to see this thing through to a reasonable conclusion, as in not declaring victory and abandoning folks to violent reprisals or chaos’ plus ‘reasonable steps to openly discuss other options and get allies on board have been taken (urgency of action being a mitigating circumstance in certain instances)’.
And that combo of factors is just exceedingly rare in the real world, I think. I don’t know if Libya fits into that rare category or not. It could. Like a lot of folks, I’m trying to piece it together, and happy to listen to anyone with some facts and good analysis.
I brought up the historical examples I did just to reiterate the point that the number of cases of terrible stuff happening around the world is gargantuan compared to conflicts where we’ve actually gone in to save the day … so throwing out the ‘you don’t care about human dignity and liberty’ card to bully someone into backing a given intervention is totally dishonest.
Suffern ACE
@burnspbesq:
Which is why I’m not having any of that “Obama Dawddled” stuff coming out from above. We’ve got resources elsewhere, Libya’s not a first order interest, and three weeks ago, it looked like everything was going well for the rebellion. Also, two weeks ago, I don’t believe I heard serious people talking about “all necessary measures”. I think those words were in part what the U.S. was holding out for. Why bother to throw your weight behind an ineffective mission?
Calouste
@piratedan:
Again, read the news before you comment. UN resolution 1973 which implements the no-fly zone was proposed by France, the UK, and Lebanon, the only Arab member of the Security Council. Not by the US. After the Arab League voted to ask the Security Council for a no-fly zone.
Do everyone a favor and spend half an hour on wikipedia before you post again, will you?
burnspbesq
@Anne Laurie:
I’ll bet you’re proud of that one. ;-)
Little Boots
oh, god, we’re not down to chapter and verse, are we? how dreary. how protestant.
JenJen
@Yutsano: @burnspbesq: Pretty much exactly where I am.
And if feels like a leaky boat.
@Sarah, Proud and Tall: Now that’s a damned good story. Well-written and I loved and laughed at the details.
Little Boots
@JenJen:
we can’t do it all. we can’t.
Church Lady
Blah,blah,blah Douthat. Blah, blah, blah Brooks. Jesus H. Christ, Doug, you’re like a damn broken record. You’re making me pine for the days you haunted the Post chats.
Up your game man!
Little Boots
@Church Lady:
uh, huh, so what you make of this whole libya thang?
hhex65
@Little Boots: I’m sure we all see that, but the MIC has been a done deal for almost a century– let’s agree on that, too. And since the truth is that for most Americans this is going to be nothing more than a political issue we should be allowed to support certain details like having a sentient C-in-C, multilateralism, etc, without being shouted down the way a Peter Beinart or David Brooks might be in a civilized society.
Little Boots
@hhex65:
I agree. and nobody is really being shouted down. at all. and with that, good night. I hope things look better in the morning.
Martin
@Little Boots: So why is nobody in the Muslim world protesting this? If we’re fucking it up, how come all of the loud voices are Russia, China, Venezuela, Americans?
Seems to me that Muslims, and in particular the Arab states protest US intervention at the drop of a hat. There’s nothing. If we’re fucking up, why are they so silent for the first time in half a century? We draw a cartoon, there’s death threats and flag burning. We invade Libya, crickets.
Kinda makes you wonder, no?
Church Lady
@burnspbesq: I hope he’s more employable after college than my two will be. One getting a Masters in Journalism and the other one currently majoring in Journalism undergrad. We’ve resigned ourselves to supporting them for the rest of our lives. Oh well, I hear cat food contains all the nutrients needed.
JenJen
@Little Boots: Can’t argue with that. But I think it’s waaaaaay too early to assemble judge and jury here. And I don’t feel as though we’re doing this alone, “doing it all” as you put it. Not yet.
Like I said, it’s a fucking leaky boat.
It’s like I’m fighting with my internal 1990’s-era JenJen, who is screaming to me, “humanitarian crisis, don’t get it twisted just because of the geography and the politics.”
All while the boat is taking in water.
Church Lady
@Little Boots: Thinking that sometimes we shouldn’t be our brother’s keeper. Maybe it will work out and we’ll be done “in days, not weeks”, but I’m not confident of that. I fear a long, expensive slog. I hope I’m wrong.
El Cid
@Calouste: That’s irrelevant to the point. The point is that it is not a multilateral action, other than the US, UK, and France, in any way that has to do with who’s making what policy and doing what.
Arab nations’ lack of intensive involvement of regional affairs isn’t solely due to lack of resources, but because it’s preferable to have outside powers do that work. The outside powers, of course, have their own reasons, which are complex and also have to be chosen.
It doesn’t actually change my thinking about the matter to identify it as such. By identifying an action as “multilateral” when it’s clearly, objectively being pushed through and carried out by a few of the large Western powers, it’s because that’s a more diplomatic or politically acceptable approach, or because if it weren’t actually multilateral it would seem to many to be wrong.
Of course, part of this is due to the nature of the UNSC, which is primarily designed to let the major nuclear powers have a way of addressing various issues without blowing each other up, hence the veto.
The UNSC is not some proxy for the world’s will in general. Perhaps someday there might be some imaginable international format in which there actually could be some sort of internationally democratic and more or less representative body to undertake such issues as humanitarian intervention and such. But it’s not that day. You have 5 permanent members with vetoes, and it’s their votes which actually count on the passing of resolutions. And mainly China and Russia abstain on divisive issues.
Good or bad, that’s how it is. It may be the only available forum, but it’s odd to hear a UN Security Council decision portrayed as an indication of world opinion.
This isn’t only for the West. It’s pretty clear that some ECOWAS or AU actions are being driven by which member states, or which states’ refusals are blocking an action behind the scenes.
licensed to kill time
multilaterlist: a really busy procrastinator’s honey-do list?
El Cid
@burnspbesq: In Zimbabwe there’s currently no situation whatsoever in which a military intervention of any imaginable type has been proposed by which it could happen without the sorts of mass slaughters feared for Libya. Mugabe doesn’t need planes to get around, and currently there’s no force which has emerged to challenge the regime. As with anything, that could change.
It’s quite possible, and many times much more likely, to make a horrible situation worse — and even far worse — by intervening in ways which people would like to believe would help.
Just like the small steps forward in Sudan / Darfur / now Southern Sudan were achieved by negotiations and various incentives and disincentives, and the ‘we have to do something’ group were thankfully unable to get the intervention they called for.
It doesn’t make anyone somehow ‘callous’ or insensitive or whatever to recognize situations like that.
Nor does such a model mean that every situation would be like that.
But the notion that Western governments could improve the lives of Zimbabweans through military intervention is a very dangerous one indeed, one likely to send millions of people rapidly into the Limpopo.
cbear
@Martin:
Jeez, I dunno—maybe cause if you’re part of the ruling class of a Muslim country you’re probably thinking it might be a good idea to keep your head down right about now in case you might be next—-and maybe cause if you’re not part of the ruling class you’re hoping your country might be next?
Self interest, how does it work?
Barb (formerly Gex)
When all you have is the world’s largest military, every problem looks like a bombing range.
Martin
@cbear: Ruling class? What about everyone else? Everyone in the middle east is too suddenly too worried to risk burning a US flag? Are you fucking kidding me?
Ozymandias, King of Ants
@Barb (formerly Gex): Win.
Yutsano
@Martin: I consider the possibility it may be vastly underreported. I also consider that it may not indeed be happening. But it’s also hard to imagine Qadaffi as a rallying point since he’s just another corrupt leader on the Arab street. Enemy of my enemy and all that.
cbear
@Martin: No, I’m not fucking kidding you. If you had actually read my comment you might have noticed this:
You’re a very smart guy, Martin, and it’s irksome to hear you make sweeping statements like “nobody is protesting this” which is factually inaccurate and, where true, may be for reasons having nothing to do with your analysis of their motives.
Sarah, Proud and Tall
@Yutsano:
@Elizabelle:
@JenJen:
Why, thankyou, dears. You make an old lady feel quite happy. Given the amount of medication I’m on, that’s quite an achievement.
Calouste
@El Cid:
Shall we get back to this point in a week or so? It’s doubtful that logistically anyone except the US, Great Britain and France could do anything in the first few days. You can’t exactly enforce a no-fly zone over Lybia from Qatar considering that the distance is about 5 times the combat radius of an F-16. Egypt could have done something but I guess they were considered too vulnerable for a counterattack.
El Cid
So after having abstained from the UNSC vote, Russia’s and China’s governments feel it’s time to complain about how horrible the resolution they allowed to pass is.
Martin
@Yutsano: I’ve been looking – and I’m not seeing any protests. Nothing at AlJazeera or in the Arab press that I can find.
But isn’t the fact that Gaddafi has no friends and was nearly overrun not more than a week ago suggestive that there’s limited downside to this? Who is going to rearm him? Who is going to give him funds? Everyone either wants him gone or doesn’t care if he stays or goes. Shit, even Saddam had allies.
Everything that I’ve read and everyone I’ve talked to suggest that this is a broad Arab uprising – all nations, all looking for some degree of improvement if not outright regime change. Having three adjoining nations in North Africa is a fairly powerful movement. I haven’t seen any credible statements suggesting that we’ll see sectarian violence or a rise of extremism as an outcome of this.
I don’t pretend that this is going to be lollypops and buttercups, but many of the naysayers are suggesting that this will result in anger toward the US in the region. Where is it? It’s just not happening – and nobody was too shy about plastering it across headlines in the past. If they’re wrong about something as basic as that, why aren’t they expressing at least some skepticism about their other suggestions?
Sarah, Proud and Tall
@Parallel 5ths (Irish Steel):
I’m as real as David Brooks. Possibly more so.
Battenberg cake is wonderful. It’s fiddly, so it’s easy to hide the pills, and the marzipan covers the taste.
I once slipped Bishop Welsh a Mickey Finn in a slice of Battenberg while we were on a day trip. We all sneaked off to a bar and left the poor dear sitting on the bus. When we got back his wallet was missing, along with his trousers, and he couldn’t explain why.
Poor thing.
Calouste
@El Cid:
Putin got hammered by Medvedev on that. China should just shut up. They have a veto, they could have used it. It’s not like they didn’t have a clue what a no-fly zone would entail.
Ash Can
Has Bobo ever written anything that doesn’t make him look like a horse’s ass?
socraticsilence
I get Rwanda, but in most international relations circles Iraq and especially Kosovo are cosidered triumphs which vindicated the neoliberal emphasis on international regimes.
soonergrunt
@patrick II: That’s pretty much it. When the truth doesn’t work for you, and nobody’s buying your rhetoric, all you have left is to take refuge in audacity.
@Sarah, Proud and Tall: golf clap.
OzoneR
@Little Boots:
The Libyan rebels on the other hand…did.
someguy
You people who are criticizing Obama for acting without Congressional approval to get the U.S. involved in a third optional war should shut up.
This is totally different from Bush doing this kind of thing (with congressional approval twice BTW) because… because… because…
Um, because Obama is somewhat on our side on a number of just issues plus because it just is different so just shut up assholes!
There. I think I summed up the strongest case defending U.S. actions in Libya.
kay
Honestly. Did an overly emotional high school sophomore write this?
Conservatives talk about their feelings too much. They talk about themselves too much, generally, but it has gotten completely out of hand with Libya.
Everything I’ve read on Libya from the Paid Professional Right has been about the writer, and his feelings.
Can they put aside their past Clinton-era trauma and feelings for one moment here? I know seeing Hillary Clinton brings back all the old irrational rage and feelings of inadequacy,but for God’s sake, do we have to go through this again?
kay
No shit. Really? It’s hard.
I think I just figured out why they talk about themselves incessantly. When forced to mention something other than the incredibly boring and self-indulgent State Of The Conservative Soul they come up with stunning insights like that.
Omnes Omnibus
@someguy: People in this thread have offered substantives reasons in support of action in Libya. Your characterization of the arguments is rather extreme, don’t you think?
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@cbear: I’m not seeing protests on the islam web. The only protests seem to be pearlclutching firebaggers and the glibertarian boggarts, like the TAS Hivemind and Sully. Both the free market boggarts and the firebaggers seem to be unaware of the difference between Gulf II and OIF, the occupation of Iraq.
@someguy: The UN resolution for Gulf I said chase Saddam out of Kuwait.
And that is all that happened, the coalition turned back at Karbala.
Res 1973 says protect civilians and push Qaddafi back out of his recent gains with airstrikes.
Gulf II didnt have a UN resolution, but obviously fulfilled its goals of deposing Saddam and making sure WMDs didnt fall into terrorist hands.
The mischief was OIF, the occupation and attempted install of westernstyle democracy. Res 1973 was EXPLICITLY written to prevent that. Even if America were dumb enough to try that again, the rest of the world is not going to allow that.
Americans need to be able to see the difference between Gulf II (Desert Storm) and OIF, which was the occupation of Iraq. Is it guilt? Still trying to justify the expense of a trillion dollahs of treasure and 5k soldier lives in blood and 150k dead muslim civilians and 4.5 million orphans? While Gulf II had sketchy justifications in the WMD department, the mission was actually accomplished. The Dash Across the Desert was a success, with few American casualties.
But OIF could never accomplish its goals. It was impossible.
Islamic culture is incompatible with western style democracy, and terrorism is a response to western interventionism.
OIF just made more terrorists, instead of eliminating terrorism.
Chris
Old school conservative trick – refuse to talk about the shortcomings of your idea, but heap on tons and tons of criticism for the fact that the liberals’ idea doesn’t include free ponies and candy for everyone.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@kay: Conservatives are Death Eaters. It is easy to understand them if you just acknowledge that basic truth.
kay
@Hermione Granger-Weasley:
Hi makato (sp?). I have no idea what death eaters means, but welcome back anyway :)
I don’t know what’s hardest for them. That three women seem to be central to this thing, or that one of the women is Hillary Clinton.
It’s like a 90’s nightmare.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Chris:
Invertors. Dark Creatures that serve the Conservative Death Eaters.
PaulW
I thought for the Second War on Iraq, it was a HUGE F-CKING DEAL to have a Coalition of the Willing join the United States with token forces…
Here’s the key thing to remember: The F-cking Conservatives Will Criticize Obama No Matter What. If he didn’t go in, they’d criticize. If he goes in with a multinational force, they criticize. If he sent in U.S. forces alone, they’d criticize him for stretching our meager military resources and “why didn’t he ask for help from NATO”.
If Obama ties his shoelaces, The F-cking Conservatives would criticize the loop he uses. Even if he wears loafers. Obama Cannot and Should Not Appease The F-cking Conservatives. Period. He ought to be charging them with acts of fraud seeing as how the The F-cking Conservatives are making money off their BULLSH-T, but that’s me.
different church-lady
@ Little Boots: Look, I ‘m not taking sides here. But I do feel the need to point out that constantly and repeatedly asserting that something is wrong is not the same thing as making an argument that something is wrong.
Chris
@kay:
It’s a Harry Potter reference, like her name. Death Eaters are people who work for the bad guy, and are basically the wizarding world’s version of the Ku Klux Klan.
Omnes Omnibus
@kay: Not a Harry Potter fan? m_c seems to have adopted a new, friendlier persona. I am not sure how long the Harry Potter analogies will maintain whatever patina of cleverness they show, but, at least, we are getting grammar, sentences, and recognizable spelling.
mk3872
How the hell retardedly anti-Clinton does one have to be to call Kosovo a “FAILURE” ???
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@kay: oh, my apologies. You missed my introductory comment.
I am Professor Hermione Granger-Weasely, currently one of Hogwarts tenured faculty in the position of Defense Against the Dark Arts Instructor. It has come to our attention at Hogwarts that the Muggle World in America has come under seige by a particularily vile and degenerate franchise of Death Eaters called “conservatives”. I would like to share some of the Hogwarts Defense Against the Dark Arts curriculum in the hope that these spells, disspells and counter-spells may be of use to you.
rikryah
this was just funny
someguy
@Omnes Omnibus:
And that’s the limit of acceptable arguments.
Got it.
kay
@Omnes Omnibus:
I tried to read the first Harry Potter but I couldn’t get through it.
So, no, not a fan. I know I’m an absolute minority. I think it’s great that it’s a (newer) series of books kids love, though.
I give kids that age “How To Stay Alive In The Woods”. Both boys and girls like it, because it’s a little scary and slightly gross, and there’s an edition with a nifty waterproof cover.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@someguy: I think it is very important that Americans understand that UN Res 1973 was written to EXPLICITLY prevent another OIF, and that Gulf II != OIF.
OIF was IMPOSSIBLE.
Somehow I dont think Wizard-in-Chief Obama is going to go rogue on us.
Omnes Omnibus
@someguy:No, and there is no reasonable way that someone would get that from what I wrote.
@kay: You are going to have trouble understanding m_c’s new schtick then.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@kay: Did you know that the first Harry Potter was titled Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone?
I think you might have liked that version better.
The American edition was retitled to Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone…like Morgan’s Black Man was changed to Thirteen. I think this is…because…because well… the rest of the world doesnt exactly see America as the SuperAwesome World Police….but as racist retards.
:(
But the books are rich with literary and mythological tagging, and the core themes, good against evil, friendship and loyalty and love are wonderful.
They turned many kids onto reading, which is a great gift.
You should try again sometime. ;)
It is fairly simple to understand conservatives as deatheaters. The Manichean parallels are solid.
RP
I work near the NY Times office in DC and see Brooks and Douthat on the street every once in a while. Bobo is actually a lot chunkier than chunky bobo.
Bulworth
This is some extremely shrill stuff.
danimal
@Sarah, Proud and Tall: Sarah, your post may have gotten lost in the back and forth, but that was a piece of art. You have done the impossible: you out-Brooksed Brooks in crapulent writing. Well done.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@kay: and ekshually….I think you should start with book III, The Prisoner of Azkaban.
My personal favorite.
kay
@RP:
Sometime after the 2004 election, David Brooks wrote a whole column about middle America, based wholly on a week-long trip he took with his son’s baseball team.
It had a stern, lecturing tone. It was directed to elitist urban and suburban liberals.
Just incredible, the lack of self-awareness it was must take to be him, writing that.
Dennis SGMM
@Sarah, Proud and Tall:
Thank you! Your elegantly crafted posts are a gift.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@RP:
wow…these horrific images just flashed through my brain.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Dennis SGMM: you do know that is Morzer, don’t you?
kay
@Hermione Granger-Weasley:
I’m reading Nixonland. The last coupla years I’ve been reading poetry, which I liked as a child but somehow missed as an adult.
I picked it up again as a result of Balloon Juice. There’s a poet who is a commenter here and I followed one of his links, which led to subscribing to a poetry journal. It’s a slippery slope!
So that’s my heartwarming Balloon Juice story :)
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Dennis SGMM: and all the eemom and cornerstone fighting over Nick and sockpuppetting is correlated?
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@kay: Nixonland is terrifying. It depresses me. I can only read a few pages at a time.
I do love poetry though. Sapentia poetica is one of my very favorite things in the wide, wide world.
Lately I am reading Hafiz, Rumi, and Ibn Arabi in arabic for my arabic class.
Corner Stone
@Hermione Granger-Weasley: What fighting? Nick clearly outed himself sockpuppeting the other day with Merkin, and he’s DFer as well. There’s at least one more so far I’m pretty sure of. How many he’s sockpuppeting is anyone’s guess.
eemom and I aren’t fighting about anything.
ETA, and using a different handle is not the problem. Besides Thymezone, there are at least 6 other regular commenters that post as someone else once in a while. Nothing wrong with having some fun.
But Nick isn’t doing that, he’s sockpuppeting. And to me, that’s where an established persona uses a different handle to reiterate the same talking points, defend already made talking points, or attack people who disagree with those talking points.
IOW, act explicitly as an ally to lend credibility to the original handle or talking point.
And if people want to do that, it’s ok by me. I just happen to have a good memory and an eye for habits/quirks.
Aneece
Long time lurker, first time poster.
I just wanted to say that, as a heterodox liberal who abhors violence and militarism, I’ve struggled to find others who share my take on this intervention. I think the “pro” interventionist commenters here are the first voices outside my circle of friends who see things the way I do. I especially agree with Martin.
The fact that some of the powerful interests support this attack for selfish reasons is irrelevant. Powerful interests who support eradicating cancer do so for selfish reasons. It’s what they do, by definition. The fact that we don’t bomb every bad man/country in the world is irrelevant, as is our list of past debacles and crimes (except in anticipating public perception). At best, we can only do what we can do, and in practice we do much less.
Martin is right, there is no popular Arab outrage against this intervention. The nations that are upset about it are afraid of limits on their own ability to slaughter their citizens. For once, we might actually be the good guys. I believe that, if anything, we risk failing by not being aggressive enough, and being too frightened of low level civilian casualties. In Misurata, we need to knock out they’re freaking tanks. If the uprising succeeds quickly, then all the despot pearl clutching in the world will be drowned out by jubilant Libyan crowds on Al Jazeera. We risk over-learning the lessons of Iraq. This is not a manufactured crisis. This is not Western imperialism. It’s a practical task that can be done badly or well.
Sarah, Proud and Tall
@Hermione Granger-Weasley:
You know, young lady, I’m beginning to think you have a crush on morzer.
ETA: Which, if I was morzer, would worry me because, well, it’s a bit icky.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Yutsano: I’m staying in the boat with you. And holding all my punctuation tightly. I hope that’s cool with you. If not, I’ll find another boat. Ain’t getting in this other. Nope.
Uriel
@Sarah, Proud and Tall: A bit late, and I doubt anyone will ever see it, but I just had to say-
Bravo, good lady/sir. Bravo.
Sarah, Proud and Tall
@Uriel:
Thankyou, dear. You’re all so kind.
MTiffany
If you’ve been sucking someone’s cock for four years without result, you’re doing it wrong…
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Omnes Omnibus: Hell, I had trouble with her old schtick, and it wasn’t just the punctuation. Like kay, I’m not a fan of things HP, though I did recognize the name. So I’ll be totally lost.
Felonious Wench
@MTiffany:
We have a thread winner.
El Cid
@Calouste: That’s the point. If these various bigmouths had given as much of a shit as they’re pretending, they would have vetoed.
The US doesn’t hesitate to veto, ever. But then, there’s a lot more Russia and China want from the US — on a UN level — than the US from them.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Sarah, Proud and Tall: morzer is icky. I still have nightmares about the nursie thread.
;)
and you are an …..aspect of morzer i guess.
i infinitely prefer you.
the spanking!
the horror!
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Aneece:
this is very good. I agree.
Can these pearlclutching faintingcouch swooners here really blame Obama for wanting to be on the right side of history for once?
The poor guy couldn’t do anything to help the Greens, to help the Egyptians, to help the Saudi Shi’ia or the Jordanians or the Yemenis or the Tunisians or the Bahrainis but by gawd, a WHOLE LOT of people were BEGGING him to do something about Qaddafi, to help the Libyan people.
So he did.
I am an unreconstructed MUPpet.
I lurve the guy.
And the undisguiseable FACT that all the glibertarian boggarts like Sully, Larison, Douthat, Brooks, David Frum, Dr. Manzi and the whole Glibertarian Hivemind at TAS are concern trolling the holy hell out of Operation Omar should give Cole and the juicers a clue.
like, YOU ARE ON THE WRONG SIDE GUYZ!
Tehanu
I would if I had the money. As it is I can only wish Bobo a painful thwock upside the head followed by a headfirst dive into a pile of his own shit.