Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

The poor and middle-class pay taxes, the rich pay accountants, the wealthy pay politicians.

They were going to turn on one another at some point. It was inevitable.

They fucked up the fucking up of the fuckup!

The worst democrat is better than the best republican.

That’s my take and I am available for criticism at this time.

Wow, you are pre-disappointed. How surprising.

With all due respect and assumptions of good faith, please fuck off into the sun.

Our job is not to persuade republicans but to defeat them.

He seems like a smart guy, but JFC, what a dick!

Republicans do not pay their debts.

These days, even the boring Republicans are nuts.

There is no right way to do the wrong thing.

Celebrate the fucking wins.

“The defense has a certain level of trust in defendant that the government does not.”

The cruelty is the point; the law be damned.

We’ve had enough carrots to last a lifetime. break out the sticks.

People are weird.

Fuck these fucking interesting times.

I really should read my own blog.

So many bastards, so little time.

The willow is too close to the house.

The fight for our country is always worth it. ~Kamala Harris

Make the republican party small enough to drown in a bathtub.

Give the craziest people you know everything they want and hope they don’t ask for more? Great plan.

You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / War / Who are you going to believe?

Who are you going to believe?

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If you opposed the Iraq War and support Operation Delta Dawn, then you’re a hypocrite. If you opposed the Iraq War and oppose Operation Delta Dawn, then you’re a hippie. This means that the only people we should listen to here are those who supported the Iraq War. Similarly, the most reliable information about current economic policies come from the people who caused the financial crisis in the first place.

Reader Interactions

121Comments

  6. 6.

    BGinCHI

    The only way you can fail in this country is to care about other people and/or be born brown and/or poor.

    Otherwise you can fucking say or do pretty much anything.

    Look at Haley Barbour. He’s a status quo Governor of the state that ranks dead last or almost last in every measure of health or success in this country. And he has the audacity to want to lead all the other states.

    It beggars belief.

  10. 10.

    General Stuck

    Put some wings on Lindsay Lohan and point her east, Quadafi would cry like a little baby fer it all to just stop.

  12. 12.

    Hermione Granger-Weasley

    @Comrade DougJ: But a lot of people that saw the eo supported Gulf II and balked at the OIF occupation and reconstruction when there were no WMDs.
    A lot of analysts did think there were WMDs. Because Saddam was trying to spoof the Iranians, who he really was terrified of.

  14. 14.

    FlipYrWhig

    Also, if you supported the Iraq war and oppose action in Libya, you should realize that the latter doesn’t negate the former, and we all still remember, no matter how loud you get.

  15. 15.

    Pococurante

    This will make John “happy” – via Spencer Ackerman, it is possible NATO will keep the US on the hook:

    In Brussels, NATO managed to agree on enforcing the arms embargo against Gadhafi, but it hasn’t come to a consensus on taking over the broader mission from either Locklear or Ham or the U.S. overall — something the Pentagon has said from the start of the war that it expects within “days.” That’s led France to seek work-arounds allowing a French-led coalition to press the attack. Reportedly, it wants a “political steering committee outside NATO” to run the war, which would have the benefit of adding the Arab League under its banner, an organization wary of working under NATO.

    It feels to me like France wants their own pet oil country.

  16. 16.

    Valdivia

    @FlipYrWhig:

    Seconded. A certain hysterical British blogger comes to mind…..
    Sounds like over compensating no?

    I’m very very ambivalent but understand why Obama did it. Does that make me a half hippie?

  17. 17.

    WarMunchkin

    So, in my cultural illiteracy, I ask, what does “Delta Dawn” refer to? Or did they change the name from Odyssey Dawn already?

  18. 18.

    BGinCHI

    @Pococurante: Worked out great in Algeria.

    They also had their own rubber-producing country called Indochine at one point. Not sure how that ended up.

  19. 19.

    Hermione Granger-Weasley

    @beltane: I supported Gulf II but not OIF.
    I support Operation Omar.
    Thing is, Operation Omar is a one-off.
    Can you really blame Obama for wanting to be on the right side of history for once?
    He couldn’t do anything to help the Greens, to help the Egyptians, to help the Saudi Shi’ia or the Jordanians or the Yemenis or the Tunisians or the Bahrainis but by gawd, a WHOLE LOT of people were BEGGING him to do something about Qaddafi, to help the Libyan people.
    And we don’t even have to wetnurse the embryo government– the French can do it.
    They already recognized the NTC.

    He is doing the right thing…for this particular spacetime event.
    And most of the people here are so scarred by OIF and the Bushtards that they are becoming worse concern trolls than Larison and Sully.
    That is, incidentally, why Qaddafi thought he could smesh the rebels. He thought Obama wouldn’t dare because of the specter of OIF.

  20. 20.

    pragmatism

    i support the broccoli mandate but refudiate joey stalin. am i a clean fuckin hippie?

  22. 22.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @BGinCHI:

    They also had their own rubber-producing country called Indochine at one point. Not sure how that ended up.

    Dien Bien Phu.

  23. 23.

    JGabriel

    Speaking of the Times, anyone who has a regular account at the NY Times should log out of the account, then log back in to get their Lincoln offer for a free subscription for the rest of the year.

    It looks like the offer ends on the 3/27, and it took a day after logging out and in for me to get the e-mail, so you’ll want to do it ASAP.

    Also, when you get your e-mail, there’s a image that says: Click Here For Free Access. It doesn’t always work right. Click on it, and you will probably get an error message saying the code has already been redeemed or some shit like that. :

    1. Look in your address bar.

    2. It should read something like: https://myaccount.nytimes.com/mem/comp_access.html?claim_code=CW123456789012

    3. Copy the claim code, i.e, the part after the equal sign.

    4. Paste it into the field that says, “Enter your subscription code:”. Click on “Redeem”.

    5. At this point — because it’s a buggy piece of shite designed to frustrate you out of redeeming your code — the web page will probably log you out.

    6. Log back in.

    7. You will probably be asked to confirm your password. Confirm it.

    8. You will probably be taken back to the page where you are asked to “Enter your subscription code” again. Paste it in again.

    9. Click “Redeem” again.

    10. And you should get a page congratulating you on your new subscription. Considering the rigamarole you had to go through to collect it, congratulations are the fucking least they could off you.

    That’s what worked for me, anyway.

    If it doesn’t work for you, don’t bitch at me. I don’t work for the Times. Call or e-mail the Times and complain to them. I’m just posting this shit as a public service for BJ’ers who might not be as adept at troubleshooting.

    .

  24. 24.

    Hermione Granger-Weasley

    @Pococurante: let them. They were the first to recognize the NTC, the first to scramble jets, the first to bomb Qaddafis tank columns.
    Let them lead.
    The US doesnt get to lead.
    We fucked up.

  28. 28.

    Suffern ACE

    @WarMunchkin: Since Delta Dawn is a song about a girl who is left at the altar and spend the rest of her life waiting for her suitor to return, pathetically carrying a suitcase as if he’ll be back soon, it might be an appropriate name for this action. (If the French, Italians and Arab League can’t figure out who should lead this action, the US too will be left holding the bag).

  29. 29.

    Svensker

    They also had their own rubber-producing country

    Is that why they were called French Letters?

    I have to go get my Tofu Brown Rice Casserole ready for Quaker Meeting potluck.

    DFH out.

  30. 30.

    PTirebiter

    @WarMunchkin: Delta Dawn was is a ballad made popular by Bette Midler back in the 70’s.

    I now see Suffern ACE covered all the bases nicely. Not a bad song, really.

  32. 32.

    SteveinSC

    I had assumed that we were secondary to the British and French. It appeared that they called us to help. Now I have no clue what the lead-up was and who is calling the shots. If it were the British and French who called us into this, then, they did us a favor in Eye-rak (Limey’s) and Afghanistan (Limey’s and les crapauds) so we would have no honorable choice except to help them. However, we are left with a president who has apparently embraced the ancien regime with all the attendant horrors and excess bagage, e.g. a collection of despots and tinpot Hitlers who are happy to trot along with us into our misadventures. The whole thing is collapsing with the Empty Suit in the WH now simultaneously attacking one despot while supporting the others who are brutalizing their people. I opposed the Eyerak war before it started because there was obviously an ulterior motive behind it. It’s hard to decide on Libya, since it looks like chaos, not ulterior motive, to me.

  33. 33.

    mk3872

    Pls stop with the false comparisons of Iraq and Libya.

    There is absolutely no equivalency.

    This action falls into the Libya ’86, Granada, Kosovo camp.

    In which, BTW, Congress did NOT vote for intervention.

    But suddenly now maybe because Obama is all young & black, it’s OK to attack him as not having properly kissed the ring of Congress 1st.

  37. 37.

    BGinCHI

    @Omnes Omnibus: If you have time, would love to hear an update on day-to-day stuff going on around UW and Madison. Folks still organized and working against the Guv’s agenda?

  39. 39.

    PanAmerican

    @Valdivia:

    Sully, Matt Yglesias and Josh Marshall have all jumped aboard the overcompensation bandwagon…. sorry fellas, on the big tote board of history you’ll always be wrong about Iraq.

  40. 40.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @BGinCHI: There were a few thousand of us out on Saturday. Protests are still happening, but the momentum has moved to the court and recall battles.

  42. 42.

    ppcli

    @WarMunchkin: “Delta Dawn” was a schlocky country song that gained saturation airplay in the 70’s. I’ve always associated it with Tanya Tucker, but apparently Helen Reddy recorded it too.

    Not exactly repartee to make one forget Swift and Wilde, but standards have been falling.

  43. 43.

    Cris

    @ppcli: and as PTirebiter says, apparently Bette Midler recorded it too. I would stop far short of saying she was the one who made it popular though. Maybe among Bette Midler fans.

  45. 45.

    srv

    The real equivalency here is when there are 50-100K dead in Libya, the neu-neocon liberals will take as much responsibility for their little experiment as the neocons did for the catastrophes in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Or they’ll wave their hands and say it would have happened anyway.

  47. 47.

    Southern Beale

    This means that the only people we should listen to here are those who supported the Iraq War.

    Wait a minute, why shouldn’t we listen to the hippies? You need to establish that fact first.

    Just pointing out an error in your indefatigable logic.

  48. 48.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @ppcli: I associate it with Helen Reddy. Always thought it sucked. Operation Delta Dawn is wittier than Hitlery and Nobama.

  49. 49.

    Southern Beale

    @JGabriel:

    Hit song / atrocity of the 70’s: Delta Dawn, Helen Reddy, 1973.

    I believe Tanya Tucker had the hit with that song first, which just shows what an East Coast Elitist Snob you are for not knowing that.

    :-)

    I keed …

  51. 51.

    Southern Beale

    @srv:

    I’m just loving how skeptical our snoooze media is over this war, versus Bush’s false claims of WMD’s and mushroom clouds and all that. The question is: did they learn their lesson from their Iraq War gullibility, or is this just another case of IOKIYAR?

    I guess we’ll know when the next Republican POTUS declares war on some unsuspecting nation.

  52. 52.

    Joel

    @beltane: One of the “realist” arguments that caught my attention was the presence of Libyan nationals amongst Al-Qaeda recruits. Presumably those nationals are on the side of the rebellion. It’s never been a convincing argument. I wonder…

    1) How many? A significant number?
    2) Couldn’t supporting the Libyan people’s efforts for self-determination dissuade them from joining an international terrorist organization like Al-Q?

    My guess is that the answer to one is “negligible” and that it makes the second question irrelevant.

  53. 53.

    FlipYrWhig

    @srv: Or if it doesn’t happen, it’ll still have been right to worry that it would, because it totally could have.

  55. 55.

    Bulworth

    If you support the Iraq War and support bombing Libya but think Obama is a weenie anyway, you’re Bill Kristol. If you support the Iraq War and support invading Libya and you think Obama is an anti-American Exceptionalism Kenyan traitor you’re John Bolton.

  59. 59.

    JGabriel

    @Southern Beale:

    I believe Tanya Tucker had the hit with that song first …

    You’re right. I didn’t think Tucker was old enough to be first, but it turns out she had a C&W hit with it in 1972 when she was 13.

    But, I would contend, it’s the memory of the ubiquitous (in 1973) Helen Reddy version that makes people want to poke sharp straightened coat hangers in their ears.

    .

  61. 61.

    Tsulagi

    This means that the only people we should listen to here are those who supported the Iraq War.

    The really smart and competent nation builders, the steadfast supporters of the War That Will Pay for Itself over at RedState would give that sentiment a hearty thumbs up. Of course in doing so those clowns likely might lodge their thumb up something or each other, but they’re fearless if not clueless in action.

    Kinda funny looking at some of their frontpage posts yesterday. Pretzels would envy the twists and turns in their reasoning why we should not be taking action in Libya. Of course the known unknown true reason is obvious: 1/20 changed everything.

  63. 63.

    Suffern ACE

    @Southern Beale:

    I’m just loving how skeptical our snoooze media is over this war, versus Bush’s false claims of WMD’s and mushroom clouds and all that. The question is: did they learn their lesson from their Iraq War gullibility, or is this just another case of IOKIYAR?

    Some people want to be misled, I suppose. I think that’s what Boehner means when he demands that the Prez make a better case. What he means is “wave your hands about that if the mushroom cloud won’t be tomorrow, it will be there in 2050 unless we act today”. “I have proof that Qadaffi is planning to harvest the organs of the children to feed to the dogs in the puppy mill that is the source of most of his wealth.” Somthing like that is what they want. They might try to prove that true or false, but at least he would give them something to “investigate.”

  64. 64.

    JGabriel

    @Maude: You may have to contact the Times to fix your password. As far as I know, the offer is linked to your current account/userid, so creating a new account might not work — if that’s what you were planning to do.

    .

  66. 66.

    Corner Stone

    @Southern Beale:

    I guess we’ll know when the next Republican POTUS declares war on some unsuspecting nation.

    Jesus, you mean there’s going to be another one left that we haven’t bombed by then?
    I’m pretty sure the next R President is going to need to develop a hard on for the South Pacific if he wants fresh peoples to drone.

  69. 69.

    kdaug

    @pragmatism:

    i support the broccoli mandate but refudiate joey stalin. am i a clean fuckin hippie?

    Only if you’re smoking that broccoli.

  71. 71.

    General Stuck

    Whatever you think about Obama ordering military actions (war) in the case of Libya, it is always fascinating to watch wingnuts turn themselves into pretzels with even more convoluted logic than usual.

    They see it as a usurpation of one of their key Issues, and bounce back and forth between red knuckle support, and all sorts of half baked insults, usually to sissyfy the dem doing the actions. you get Lindsay “rambo” Graham whining about being lucky we have strong women in the administration, instead of that weine Obama, blackety black black. Or Off playing golf and picking Final Four teams for B-ball, cause ‘you know THEY like that shit more than anything else.

    For these dangerous morons, a dem president starting and fighting a war, is roughly equivalent to liberals passing food stamps or some other social program. Which is a big reason why it is a mistake to consult the fuckers for any more than is bare minimum legal. They will, the wingnuts, and some self preening dems, FUBAR it and insist that President Boehner sign off on every sortie flown. And that is if they gave a dem president any more authority than filling out the WH tennis schedules, which is doubtful.

  72. 72.

    Southern Beale

    @Corner Stone:

    Jesus, you mean there’s going to be another one left that we haven’t bombed by then?

    Well sure plus there’s no rule that says we can’t go back and re-bomb the folks we’ve already bombed. I mean it worked for Germany, right?

  73. 73.

    mk3872

    @AAA Bonds: Actually, what we are doing in Libya is very similar to Kosovo in the way that we entered the conflict and that we are doing so with Nato backing and to prevent a humanitarian disaster.

  74. 74.

    srv

    @FlipYrWhig: Yeah, totally. Like you, Dave and ilk are running around saying MQ was going to slaughter the totality of all Bhengazi:

    The Libyan army warned residents of the opposition-held city of Benghazi to flee rebel positions Wednesday ahead of a looming operation to “cleanse” the city of “armed gangs.”

    Like in a war, you don’t attack your opposition, you instead warn the local population to flee because you want to partake of genocide…

  75. 75.

    Valdivia

    @PanAmerican:

    Totally agree about this. I give it two weeks and see how the screaming is working as opposed to what’s really happening. For that I read Marc Lynch.

    Also-note that Yemen is about to have it’s own regime change and Friday should be hot in Syria. So much going on.

  76. 76.

    Jager

    @Pococurante: France is already there along with companies from the US, Norway, Germany, Spain and Italy…rumor is GHA-fucking-Dafi got them all to kick on the terrorism reparations.

  79. 79.

    Keith G

    @Corner Stone:

    I’m pretty sure the next R President is going to need to develop a hard on for the South Pacific if he wants fresh peoples to drone.

    Mexico?

    Maybe Canada just because the GOP finds them irritating.

  80. 80.

    pragmatism

    @kdaug: only when times get really really tough. you gotta make sure you de-stem well. also, too, gives you gas. i found that a small dollop of melted wisconsin cheddar on the bowl provides a pleasant aftertaste.

  82. 82.

    Jager

    @General Stuck: The R’s always forget about that crippled Democrat bastard in his wheelchair who kicked the shit out of the Germans and the Japanese in WW2 and it only took that pussy 4 years to get it done, too, also!

  83. 83.

    Jager

    @General Stuck: The R’s always forget about that crippled Democrat bastard in his wheelchair who kicked the shit out of the Germans and the Japanese in WW2 and it only took him 4 years to get it done, too, also!

  85. 85.

    FlipYrWhig

    @srv: Putting faith in that as a real “warning” rather than a threat seems a bit credulous to me.

    Anyway, it seems to me the point is whether we’re worrying because we should always be skeptical about going to war — which is a fine, logical view that even the people leaning “pro” hold — or whether we’re worrying beyond that baseline level because there’s something particularly foul-smelling about this particular operation.

  87. 87.

    Todd Dugdale

    srv wrote:
    “Like in a war, you don’t attack your opposition, you instead warn the local population to flee because you want to partake of genocide.”

    Yes, Khadafy is a humanitarian. Libyan State TV says so.

    Where was this humanitarian impulse a few days ago when he promised a cease-fire, and then was caught by the French red-handed shelling the very same city indiscriminately? I mean, this is the guy who is chaining children to tanks in the west to keep them from being attacked by air. But now he’s warning people! So our entire reason for being there is a lie, right?

    Hmmm…what could have happened since then to turn him into someone so concerned about civilian casualties? Air strikes?

  88. 88.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Corner Stone:

    I’m pretty sure the next R President is going to need to develop a hard on for the South Pacific if he wants fresh peoples to drone.

    Or he or she could just go back to the tried-and-true Reagan doctrine and get deeply involved in Central America.

  91. 91.

    Paula

    I opposed going into Afghanistan after 9/11.

    I opposed going into Iraq.

    I oppose US involvement in defending the Libya no-fly zone, even if the exercise turns out well in the end.

    Do I win something yet?

  92. 92.

    Todd Dugdale

    @FlipYrWhig:
    “Putting faith in that as a real “warning” rather than a threat seems a bit credulous to me.”

    Yeah, especially since the big humanitarian Khadafy thoughtfully cut off all electricity (and water)to Benghazi days ago. How are they supposed see this televised ‘warning’ without electricity for their televisions?

  94. 94.

    HyperIon

    @JGabriel:

    gave useful info for getting free access to NYT

    I’ve logged in and out several times but I never get a

    Lincoln offer for a free subscription for the rest of the year

    I’m currently logged out and will try again tomorrow.

  96. 96.

    Wag

    @BGinCHI:

    Look at Haley Barbour. He’s a status quo Governor of the state that ranks dead last or almost last in every measure of health or success in this country. And he has the audacity to want to lead all the other states.

    At least he leads by example. Just look at his level of obesity. He leads the potential GOP presidential candidates in weight, just as his stae leads the nation in the BMI Index.

  99. 99.

    Todd Dugdale

    @FlipYrWhig:
    Maybe you’re right. I thought he was concerned that someone might get electrocuted, so he cut off the power. Likewise, he cut off the water so no one could drown in their bathtubs. And to ensure that no one suffered from food poisoning, he turned away supply trucks headed for the city with food.

    Why are we hounding this poor man who simply wants a better life for his people?

  100. 100.

    srv

    @Todd Dugdale:

    Where was this humanitarian impulse a few days ago when he promised a cease-fire, and then was caught by the French red-handed shelling the very same city indiscriminately? I mean, this is the guy who is chaining children to tanks in the west to keep them from being attacked by air. But now he’s warning people! So our entire reason for being there is a lie, right?

    Uhm, he was warning them before the NFZ. Not that it’s possible for you hysterics to get your timelines accurate or anything. Since you’ve never heard of battery powered or car radios re Benghazi, I’m not sure how you think anyone could enforce a cease-fire while his entire command is being jammed. Particularly while we’re raining bombs down on them.

    And chaining kids to tanks now… I bet there are incubators in them too.

  103. 103.

    JGabriel

    HyperIon: Like I said, it took a day for my invite to show up in e-mail. You’ll probably get your’s tomorrow morning, if there are still invites left and you’re a heavy user (e.g., daily reader) of the Times website. The promo ends on 3/27, but it’s also reportedly capped at about 200,000.

    .

  106. 106.

    Tonis

    If you opposed the Iraq War and support Operation Delta Dawn, then you’re a hypocrite.

    I respectfully disagree. Among other things, in the Iraq war we ignored the UN and bribed other countries to support our unilateral attack.

    In Libya, on the other hand, we have UN approval and we have the world with us.

    Furthermore, there was no imminent danger to the world when Bush unwisely attacked Iraq in March 2003. On the other hand, in Libya, Khadaffi was about to massacre to remaining rebels.

    If Obama, France etc hadn’t acted, we would now have another Darfur and the same people that are complaining about Obama would criticize him for not doing what he is now doing.

  108. 108.

    srv

    And while no amount of facts would ever dissuade the fans of freedom, Benghazi’s power plant wasn’t attacked until right before the UN vote and it was still up that night.

    The published warnings are dated the 17th.

    Not that any facts matter here.

  109. 109.

    Svensker

    @Joel:

    It might be worth reading what some actul DFHs have to say on the matter.

    We don’t want to hear from them. They got punked by Glenn G. on Bradley Manning and have lost all credibility.

  110. 110.

    Hermione Granger-Weasley

    @Davis X. Machina:

    it was close.

    aye. If the Distributed Jesusland Congress had got in the loop, Qaddafi would have swarmed the rebels in Benghazi like an MQ9 Reaper on an afghan wedding party.
    It would be all over without a single tomahawk being fired.
    Cole would be happy.

  111. 111.

    FlipYrWhig

    @srv: By the same token, Slobodan Milosevic was just warning Croatians and Albanians that they might want to find new places to live! Probably he was concerned about the real estate market.

  112. 112.

    Hermione Granger-Weasley

    @srv: presumeably the Colonel understands that chaining carbonbased humans to metal tanks does not deter smart ordnance, or most ATD and ATA.
    But one never knows.

  113. 113.

    srv

    @FlipYrWhig: There isn’t anything you’ve said that is factually true, and much of it is demonstrably false (links above).

    So now you’re stuck with comparisons to Saddam Hitler Milosevic. All you and GW will ever have is Godwin. Enjoy.

  114. 114.

    joe from Lowell

    Gotta love people who are just certain Barack Obama is secretly scheming to steal Iraqi oil for THE EMPIRE, but discover their sympathetic nuance gland when it comes to poor, misunderstood Moamar Khadaffy.

    He’s ronery.

  117. 117.

    Superluminar

    @joe from Lowell
    but he said Quaddafi didn’t attack it until after the NFZ, so clearly that proves Obama is to blame.

    @Corner Stone
    Why, my leather jacket is very nice, thanks…

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