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You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / War / Who are you going to believe?

Who are you going to believe?

by DougJ|  March 22, 20114:28 pm| 121 Comments

This post is in: War, We Are All Mayans Now

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If you opposed the Iraq War and support Operation Delta Dawn, then you’re a hypocrite. If you opposed the Iraq War and oppose Operation Delta Dawn, then you’re a hippie. This means that the only people we should listen to here are those who supported the Iraq War. Similarly, the most reliable information about current economic policies come from the people who caused the financial crisis in the first place.

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Reader Interactions

121Comments

  1. 1.

    Zifnab

    March 22, 2011 at 4:30 pm

    Shut up. What do you know? Bloggers are stupid.

  2. 2.

    The Ancient Randonneur (formerly known as The Grand Panjandrum)

    March 22, 2011 at 4:32 pm

    Clearly, KThug = Shrill.

  3. 3.

    Hermione Granger-Weasley

    March 22, 2011 at 4:33 pm

    Which Iraq War?

  4. 4.

    beltane

    March 22, 2011 at 4:36 pm

    This is why everyone should just be a hippie. The tofu and brown rice makes you wise.

  5. 5.

    Comrade DougJ

    March 22, 2011 at 4:37 pm

    @Hermione Granger-Weasley:

    Two.

  6. 6.

    BGinCHI

    March 22, 2011 at 4:38 pm

    The only way you can fail in this country is to care about other people and/or be born brown and/or poor.

    Otherwise you can fucking say or do pretty much anything.

    Look at Haley Barbour. He’s a status quo Governor of the state that ranks dead last or almost last in every measure of health or success in this country. And he has the audacity to want to lead all the other states.

    It beggars belief.

  7. 7.

    Mark S.

    March 22, 2011 at 4:38 pm

    What if you supported Iraq but oppose Libya? Does that make you John Cole?

  8. 8.

    Lolis

    March 22, 2011 at 4:39 pm

    George W. Bush is a hero. Also, too.

  9. 9.

    GeneJockey

    March 22, 2011 at 4:40 pm

    Well…yeah. Keen grasp of the obvious, there, Comrade DougJ!

  10. 10.

    General Stuck

    March 22, 2011 at 4:40 pm

    Put some wings on Lindsay Lohan and point her east, Quadafi would cry like a little baby fer it all to just stop.

  11. 11.

    beltane

    March 22, 2011 at 4:40 pm

    This is an interesting piece by Juan Cole, who I guess falls into the hypocrite camp: http://www.juancole.com/2011/03/top-ten-ways-that-libya-2011-is-not-iraq-2003.html

    For the record, I opposed the Iraq war and am somewhat ambivalent about Libya.

  12. 12.

    Hermione Granger-Weasley

    March 22, 2011 at 4:41 pm

    @Comrade DougJ: But a lot of people that saw the eo supported Gulf II and balked at the OIF occupation and reconstruction when there were no WMDs.
    A lot of analysts did think there were WMDs. Because Saddam was trying to spoof the Iranians, who he really was terrified of.

  13. 13.

    cleek

    March 22, 2011 at 4:42 pm

    hippies rule.

  14. 14.

    FlipYrWhig

    March 22, 2011 at 4:43 pm

    Also, if you supported the Iraq war and oppose action in Libya, you should realize that the latter doesn’t negate the former, and we all still remember, no matter how loud you get.

  15. 15.

    Pococurante

    March 22, 2011 at 4:49 pm

    This will make John “happy” – via Spencer Ackerman, it is possible NATO will keep the US on the hook:

    In Brussels, NATO managed to agree on enforcing the arms embargo against Gadhafi, but it hasn’t come to a consensus on taking over the broader mission from either Locklear or Ham or the U.S. overall — something the Pentagon has said from the start of the war that it expects within “days.” That’s led France to seek work-arounds allowing a French-led coalition to press the attack. Reportedly, it wants a “political steering committee outside NATO” to run the war, which would have the benefit of adding the Arab League under its banner, an organization wary of working under NATO.

    It feels to me like France wants their own pet oil country.

  16. 16.

    Valdivia

    March 22, 2011 at 4:50 pm

    @FlipYrWhig:

    Seconded. A certain hysterical British blogger comes to mind…..
    Sounds like over compensating no?

    I’m very very ambivalent but understand why Obama did it. Does that make me a half hippie?

  17. 17.

    WarMunchkin

    March 22, 2011 at 4:51 pm

    So, in my cultural illiteracy, I ask, what does “Delta Dawn” refer to? Or did they change the name from Odyssey Dawn already?

  18. 18.

    BGinCHI

    March 22, 2011 at 4:51 pm

    @Pococurante: Worked out great in Algeria.

    They also had their own rubber-producing country called Indochine at one point. Not sure how that ended up.

  19. 19.

    Hermione Granger-Weasley

    March 22, 2011 at 4:52 pm

    @beltane: I supported Gulf II but not OIF.
    I support Operation Omar.
    Thing is, Operation Omar is a one-off.
    Can you really blame Obama for wanting to be on the right side of history for once?
    He couldn’t do anything to help the Greens, to help the Egyptians, to help the Saudi Shi’ia or the Jordanians or the Yemenis or the Tunisians or the Bahrainis but by gawd, a WHOLE LOT of people were BEGGING him to do something about Qaddafi, to help the Libyan people.
    And we don’t even have to wetnurse the embryo government– the French can do it.
    They already recognized the NTC.

    He is doing the right thing…for this particular spacetime event.
    And most of the people here are so scarred by OIF and the Bushtards that they are becoming worse concern trolls than Larison and Sully.
    That is, incidentally, why Qaddafi thought he could smesh the rebels. He thought Obama wouldn’t dare because of the specter of OIF.

  20. 20.

    pragmatism

    March 22, 2011 at 4:53 pm

    i support the broccoli mandate but refudiate joey stalin. am i a clean fuckin hippie?

  21. 21.

    Hermione Granger-Weasley

    March 22, 2011 at 4:54 pm

    @WarMunchkin: they are mocking it. Anne Laurie and DougJ.
    Big fat concern trolls.

  22. 22.

    Omnes Omnibus

    March 22, 2011 at 4:56 pm

    @BGinCHI:

    They also had their own rubber-producing country called Indochine at one point. Not sure how that ended up.

    Dien Bien Phu.

  23. 23.

    JGabriel

    March 22, 2011 at 4:57 pm

    Speaking of the Times, anyone who has a regular account at the NY Times should log out of the account, then log back in to get their Lincoln offer for a free subscription for the rest of the year.

    It looks like the offer ends on the 3/27, and it took a day after logging out and in for me to get the e-mail, so you’ll want to do it ASAP.

    Also, when you get your e-mail, there’s a image that says: Click Here For Free Access. It doesn’t always work right. Click on it, and you will probably get an error message saying the code has already been redeemed or some shit like that. :

    1. Look in your address bar.

    2. It should read something like: https://myaccount.nytimes.com/mem/comp_access.html?claim_code=CW123456789012

    3. Copy the claim code, i.e, the part after the equal sign.

    4. Paste it into the field that says, “Enter your subscription code:”. Click on “Redeem”.

    5. At this point — because it’s a buggy piece of shite designed to frustrate you out of redeeming your code — the web page will probably log you out.

    6. Log back in.

    7. You will probably be asked to confirm your password. Confirm it.

    8. You will probably be taken back to the page where you are asked to “Enter your subscription code” again. Paste it in again.

    9. Click “Redeem” again.

    10. And you should get a page congratulating you on your new subscription. Considering the rigamarole you had to go through to collect it, congratulations are the fucking least they could off you.

    That’s what worked for me, anyway.

    If it doesn’t work for you, don’t bitch at me. I don’t work for the Times. Call or e-mail the Times and complain to them. I’m just posting this shit as a public service for BJ’ers who might not be as adept at troubleshooting.

    .

  24. 24.

    Hermione Granger-Weasley

    March 22, 2011 at 4:58 pm

    @Pococurante: let them. They were the first to recognize the NTC, the first to scramble jets, the first to bomb Qaddafis tank columns.
    Let them lead.
    The US doesnt get to lead.
    We fucked up.

  25. 25.

    BGinCHI

    March 22, 2011 at 4:59 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Yep, and remind me who came in to clean up that mess?

  26. 26.

    Davis X. Machina

    March 22, 2011 at 5:00 pm

    @Hermione Granger-Weasley:

    He thought Obama wouldn’t dare because of the specter of OIF.

    Maybe he’s not that crazy after all…it was close.

  27. 27.

    AAA Bonds

    March 22, 2011 at 5:00 pm

    INCOMELESS HIPPIES, LISTEN TO ME! *megaphone whines*

  28. 28.

    Suffern ACE

    March 22, 2011 at 5:00 pm

    @WarMunchkin: Since Delta Dawn is a song about a girl who is left at the altar and spend the rest of her life waiting for her suitor to return, pathetically carrying a suitcase as if he’ll be back soon, it might be an appropriate name for this action. (If the French, Italians and Arab League can’t figure out who should lead this action, the US too will be left holding the bag).

  29. 29.

    Svensker

    March 22, 2011 at 5:01 pm

    They also had their own rubber-producing country

    Is that why they were called French Letters?

    I have to go get my Tofu Brown Rice Casserole ready for Quaker Meeting potluck.

    DFH out.

  30. 30.

    PTirebiter

    March 22, 2011 at 5:02 pm

    @WarMunchkin: Delta Dawn was is a ballad made popular by Bette Midler back in the 70’s.

    I now see Suffern ACE covered all the bases nicely. Not a bad song, really.

  31. 31.

    Cris

    March 22, 2011 at 5:03 pm

    @WarMunchkin: Tanya Tucker, Helen Reddy.

  32. 32.

    SteveinSC

    March 22, 2011 at 5:06 pm

    I had assumed that we were secondary to the British and French. It appeared that they called us to help. Now I have no clue what the lead-up was and who is calling the shots. If it were the British and French who called us into this, then, they did us a favor in Eye-rak (Limey’s) and Afghanistan (Limey’s and les crapauds) so we would have no honorable choice except to help them. However, we are left with a president who has apparently embraced the ancien regime with all the attendant horrors and excess bagage, e.g. a collection of despots and tinpot Hitlers who are happy to trot along with us into our misadventures. The whole thing is collapsing with the Empty Suit in the WH now simultaneously attacking one despot while supporting the others who are brutalizing their people. I opposed the Eyerak war before it started because there was obviously an ulterior motive behind it. It’s hard to decide on Libya, since it looks like chaos, not ulterior motive, to me.

  33. 33.

    mk3872

    March 22, 2011 at 5:06 pm

    Pls stop with the false comparisons of Iraq and Libya.

    There is absolutely no equivalency.

    This action falls into the Libya ’86, Granada, Kosovo camp.

    In which, BTW, Congress did NOT vote for intervention.

    But suddenly now maybe because Obama is all young & black, it’s OK to attack him as not having properly kissed the ring of Congress 1st.

  34. 34.

    FlipYrWhig

    March 22, 2011 at 5:07 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Dien Bien Phu.

    Phuket up.

  35. 35.

    AAA Bonds

    March 22, 2011 at 5:07 pm

    @mk3872:

    There is no equivalency of Iraq and Libya, and there is no equivalency of Libya and Kosovo.

  36. 36.

    Omnes Omnibus

    March 22, 2011 at 5:10 pm

    @BGinCHI: Idiots? Very smart idiots.

  37. 37.

    BGinCHI

    March 22, 2011 at 5:13 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: If you have time, would love to hear an update on day-to-day stuff going on around UW and Madison. Folks still organized and working against the Guv’s agenda?

  38. 38.

    Calouste

    March 22, 2011 at 5:17 pm

    @BGinCHI:

    The guys who thought that supporting Ho Chi Minh was a good idea in the first place?

  39. 39.

    PanAmerican

    March 22, 2011 at 5:19 pm

    @Valdivia:

    Sully, Matt Yglesias and Josh Marshall have all jumped aboard the overcompensation bandwagon…. sorry fellas, on the big tote board of history you’ll always be wrong about Iraq.

  40. 40.

    Omnes Omnibus

    March 22, 2011 at 5:19 pm

    @BGinCHI: There were a few thousand of us out on Saturday. Protests are still happening, but the momentum has moved to the court and recall battles.

  41. 41.

    BGinCHI

    March 22, 2011 at 5:21 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Thanks. Hang in there. Only news I get on WI is from Maddow or going on the Cap Times page.

  42. 42.

    ppcli

    March 22, 2011 at 5:22 pm

    @WarMunchkin: “Delta Dawn” was a schlocky country song that gained saturation airplay in the 70’s. I’ve always associated it with Tanya Tucker, but apparently Helen Reddy recorded it too.

    Not exactly repartee to make one forget Swift and Wilde, but standards have been falling.

  43. 43.

    Cris

    March 22, 2011 at 5:24 pm

    @ppcli: and as PTirebiter says, apparently Bette Midler recorded it too. I would stop far short of saying she was the one who made it popular though. Maybe among Bette Midler fans.

  44. 44.

    JGabriel

    March 22, 2011 at 5:25 pm

    @WarMunchkin:

    So, in my cultural illiteracy, I ask, what does “Delta Dawn” refer to?

    Hit song / atrocity of the 70’s: Delta Dawn, Helen Reddy, 1973.

  45. 45.

    srv

    March 22, 2011 at 5:25 pm

    The real equivalency here is when there are 50-100K dead in Libya, the neu-neocon liberals will take as much responsibility for their little experiment as the neocons did for the catastrophes in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Or they’ll wave their hands and say it would have happened anyway.

  46. 46.

    SteveinSC

    March 22, 2011 at 5:27 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Let us know where to send money, to support recall, etc. since no more pizzas.

  47. 47.

    Southern Beale

    March 22, 2011 at 5:28 pm

    This means that the only people we should listen to here are those who supported the Iraq War.

    Wait a minute, why shouldn’t we listen to the hippies? You need to establish that fact first.

    Just pointing out an error in your indefatigable logic.

  48. 48.

    Omnes Omnibus

    March 22, 2011 at 5:29 pm

    @ppcli: I associate it with Helen Reddy. Always thought it sucked. Operation Delta Dawn is wittier than Hitlery and Nobama.

  49. 49.

    Southern Beale

    March 22, 2011 at 5:29 pm

    @JGabriel:

    Hit song / atrocity of the 70’s: Delta Dawn, Helen Reddy, 1973.

    I believe Tanya Tucker had the hit with that song first, which just shows what an East Coast Elitist Snob you are for not knowing that.

    :-)

    I keed …

  50. 50.

    Maude

    March 22, 2011 at 5:30 pm

    @JGabriel:
    I bookmarked this. I get the NYT by email. I forgot my password.

  51. 51.

    Southern Beale

    March 22, 2011 at 5:32 pm

    @srv:

    I’m just loving how skeptical our snoooze media is over this war, versus Bush’s false claims of WMD’s and mushroom clouds and all that. The question is: did they learn their lesson from their Iraq War gullibility, or is this just another case of IOKIYAR?

    I guess we’ll know when the next Republican POTUS declares war on some unsuspecting nation.

  52. 52.

    Joel

    March 22, 2011 at 5:32 pm

    @beltane: One of the “realist” arguments that caught my attention was the presence of Libyan nationals amongst Al-Qaeda recruits. Presumably those nationals are on the side of the rebellion. It’s never been a convincing argument. I wonder…

    1) How many? A significant number?
    2) Couldn’t supporting the Libyan people’s efforts for self-determination dissuade them from joining an international terrorist organization like Al-Q?

    My guess is that the answer to one is “negligible” and that it makes the second question irrelevant.

  53. 53.

    FlipYrWhig

    March 22, 2011 at 5:33 pm

    @srv: Or if it doesn’t happen, it’ll still have been right to worry that it would, because it totally could have.

  54. 54.

    Omnes Omnibus

    March 22, 2011 at 5:34 pm

    @SteveinSC: You can contribute at this ActBlue page.

  55. 55.

    Bulworth

    March 22, 2011 at 5:37 pm

    If you support the Iraq War and support bombing Libya but think Obama is a weenie anyway, you’re Bill Kristol. If you support the Iraq War and support invading Libya and you think Obama is an anti-American Exceptionalism Kenyan traitor you’re John Bolton.

  56. 56.

    FlipYrWhig

    March 22, 2011 at 5:38 pm

    @Bulworth: Also, you might be a redneck.

  57. 57.

    Omnes Omnibus

    March 22, 2011 at 5:38 pm

    @FlipYrWhig: No, that’s Mike Huckabee.

  58. 58.

    Bulworth

    March 22, 2011 at 5:40 pm

    Also, too, if you think Obama is a Chicago Thug and a too nuanced girly-man, you’re a Sarah Palin.

  59. 59.

    JGabriel

    March 22, 2011 at 5:40 pm

    @Southern Beale:

    I believe Tanya Tucker had the hit with that song first …

    You’re right. I didn’t think Tucker was old enough to be first, but it turns out she had a C&W hit with it in 1972 when she was 13.

    But, I would contend, it’s the memory of the ubiquitous (in 1973) Helen Reddy version that makes people want to poke sharp straightened coat hangers in their ears.

    .

  60. 60.

    Cris

    March 22, 2011 at 5:41 pm

    @FlipYrWhig: You might think I’m foolish, or maybe it’s untrue.

  61. 61.

    Tsulagi

    March 22, 2011 at 5:41 pm

    This means that the only people we should listen to here are those who supported the Iraq War.

    The really smart and competent nation builders, the steadfast supporters of the War That Will Pay for Itself over at RedState would give that sentiment a hearty thumbs up. Of course in doing so those clowns likely might lodge their thumb up something or each other, but they’re fearless if not clueless in action.

    Kinda funny looking at some of their frontpage posts yesterday. Pretzels would envy the twists and turns in their reasoning why we should not be taking action in Libya. Of course the known unknown true reason is obvious: 1/20 changed everything.

  62. 62.

    4tehlulz

    March 22, 2011 at 5:41 pm

    @Southern Beale:

    Obama’s Libya decisions under fire
    …
    Liberals as well as the GOP criticize the president for sending America into its third military conflict. ‘Gratuitous’

    Does this answer your question?

  63. 63.

    Suffern ACE

    March 22, 2011 at 5:42 pm

    @Southern Beale:

    I’m just loving how skeptical our snoooze media is over this war, versus Bush’s false claims of WMD’s and mushroom clouds and all that. The question is: did they learn their lesson from their Iraq War gullibility, or is this just another case of IOKIYAR?

    Some people want to be misled, I suppose. I think that’s what Boehner means when he demands that the Prez make a better case. What he means is “wave your hands about that if the mushroom cloud won’t be tomorrow, it will be there in 2050 unless we act today”. “I have proof that Qadaffi is planning to harvest the organs of the children to feed to the dogs in the puppy mill that is the source of most of his wealth.” Somthing like that is what they want. They might try to prove that true or false, but at least he would give them something to “investigate.”

  64. 64.

    JGabriel

    March 22, 2011 at 5:44 pm

    @Maude: You may have to contact the Times to fix your password. As far as I know, the offer is linked to your current account/userid, so creating a new account might not work — if that’s what you were planning to do.

    .

  65. 65.

    Comrade Mary

    March 22, 2011 at 5:47 pm

    You lie down with Delta Dawn, you get up with Angie Baby.

  66. 66.

    Corner Stone

    March 22, 2011 at 5:47 pm

    @Southern Beale:

    I guess we’ll know when the next Republican POTUS declares war on some unsuspecting nation.

    Jesus, you mean there’s going to be another one left that we haven’t bombed by then?
    I’m pretty sure the next R President is going to need to develop a hard on for the South Pacific if he wants fresh peoples to drone.

  67. 67.

    ppcli

    March 22, 2011 at 5:48 pm

    @4tehlulz: Left and Right are agreed! What a tragedy that David Broder didn’t live to see this.

  68. 68.

    Rosalita

    March 22, 2011 at 5:51 pm

    …

  69. 69.

    kdaug

    March 22, 2011 at 5:52 pm

    @pragmatism:

    i support the broccoli mandate but refudiate joey stalin. am i a clean fuckin hippie?

    Only if you’re smoking that broccoli.

  70. 70.

    JW

    March 22, 2011 at 5:54 pm

    @Hermione Granger-Weasley: Your head’s on straight.

  71. 71.

    General Stuck

    March 22, 2011 at 5:54 pm

    Whatever you think about Obama ordering military actions (war) in the case of Libya, it is always fascinating to watch wingnuts turn themselves into pretzels with even more convoluted logic than usual.

    They see it as a usurpation of one of their key Issues, and bounce back and forth between red knuckle support, and all sorts of half baked insults, usually to sissyfy the dem doing the actions. you get Lindsay “rambo” Graham whining about being lucky we have strong women in the administration, instead of that weine Obama, blackety black black. Or Off playing golf and picking Final Four teams for B-ball, cause ‘you know THEY like that shit more than anything else.

    For these dangerous morons, a dem president starting and fighting a war, is roughly equivalent to liberals passing food stamps or some other social program. Which is a big reason why it is a mistake to consult the fuckers for any more than is bare minimum legal. They will, the wingnuts, and some self preening dems, FUBAR it and insist that President Boehner sign off on every sortie flown. And that is if they gave a dem president any more authority than filling out the WH tennis schedules, which is doubtful.

  72. 72.

    Southern Beale

    March 22, 2011 at 5:58 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    Jesus, you mean there’s going to be another one left that we haven’t bombed by then?

    Well sure plus there’s no rule that says we can’t go back and re-bomb the folks we’ve already bombed. I mean it worked for Germany, right?

  73. 73.

    mk3872

    March 22, 2011 at 5:59 pm

    @AAA Bonds: Actually, what we are doing in Libya is very similar to Kosovo in the way that we entered the conflict and that we are doing so with Nato backing and to prevent a humanitarian disaster.

  74. 74.

    srv

    March 22, 2011 at 5:59 pm

    @FlipYrWhig: Yeah, totally. Like you, Dave and ilk are running around saying MQ was going to slaughter the totality of all Bhengazi:

    The Libyan army warned residents of the opposition-held city of Benghazi to flee rebel positions Wednesday ahead of a looming operation to “cleanse” the city of “armed gangs.”

    Like in a war, you don’t attack your opposition, you instead warn the local population to flee because you want to partake of genocide…

  75. 75.

    Valdivia

    March 22, 2011 at 5:59 pm

    @PanAmerican:

    Totally agree about this. I give it two weeks and see how the screaming is working as opposed to what’s really happening. For that I read Marc Lynch.

    Also-note that Yemen is about to have it’s own regime change and Friday should be hot in Syria. So much going on.

  76. 76.

    Jager

    March 22, 2011 at 6:02 pm

    @Pococurante: France is already there along with companies from the US, Norway, Germany, Spain and Italy…rumor is GHA-fucking-Dafi got them all to kick on the terrorism reparations.

  77. 77.

    Keith G

    March 22, 2011 at 6:04 pm

    @JGabriel: Thanks ever so for the heads up.
    @Maude: Go to the page where you manage your account. They will reset your pw and send a new one.

  78. 78.

    OzoneR

    March 22, 2011 at 6:08 pm

    You man Odyssey Dawn?, or is Helen Reddy the new Secretary of State?

  79. 79.

    Keith G

    March 22, 2011 at 6:09 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    I’m pretty sure the next R President is going to need to develop a hard on for the South Pacific if he wants fresh peoples to drone.

    Mexico?

    Maybe Canada just because the GOP finds them irritating.

  80. 80.

    pragmatism

    March 22, 2011 at 6:09 pm

    @kdaug: only when times get really really tough. you gotta make sure you de-stem well. also, too, gives you gas. i found that a small dollop of melted wisconsin cheddar on the bowl provides a pleasant aftertaste.

  81. 81.

    Joseph Nobles

    March 22, 2011 at 6:11 pm

    Not a word about Gaddafi’s puppy mills. We don’t need to boost his credentials in the Tea Party like that.

  82. 82.

    Jager

    March 22, 2011 at 6:11 pm

    @General Stuck: The R’s always forget about that crippled Democrat bastard in his wheelchair who kicked the shit out of the Germans and the Japanese in WW2 and it only took that pussy 4 years to get it done, too, also!

  83. 83.

    Jager

    March 22, 2011 at 6:12 pm

    @General Stuck: The R’s always forget about that crippled Democrat bastard in his wheelchair who kicked the shit out of the Germans and the Japanese in WW2 and it only took him 4 years to get it done, too, also!

  84. 84.

    Jager

    March 22, 2011 at 6:13 pm

    P***Y goes to moderation

  85. 85.

    FlipYrWhig

    March 22, 2011 at 6:16 pm

    @srv: Putting faith in that as a real “warning” rather than a threat seems a bit credulous to me.

    Anyway, it seems to me the point is whether we’re worrying because we should always be skeptical about going to war — which is a fine, logical view that even the people leaning “pro” hold — or whether we’re worrying beyond that baseline level because there’s something particularly foul-smelling about this particular operation.

  86. 86.

    Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony

    March 22, 2011 at 6:17 pm

    Total Hippie, reporting for duty.

  87. 87.

    Todd Dugdale

    March 22, 2011 at 6:18 pm

    srv wrote:
    “Like in a war, you don’t attack your opposition, you instead warn the local population to flee because you want to partake of genocide.”

    Yes, Khadafy is a humanitarian. Libyan State TV says so.

    Where was this humanitarian impulse a few days ago when he promised a cease-fire, and then was caught by the French red-handed shelling the very same city indiscriminately? I mean, this is the guy who is chaining children to tanks in the west to keep them from being attacked by air. But now he’s warning people! So our entire reason for being there is a lie, right?

    Hmmm…what could have happened since then to turn him into someone so concerned about civilian casualties? Air strikes?

  88. 88.

    FlipYrWhig

    March 22, 2011 at 6:18 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    I’m pretty sure the next R President is going to need to develop a hard on for the South Pacific if he wants fresh peoples to drone.

    Or he or she could just go back to the tried-and-true Reagan doctrine and get deeply involved in Central America.

  89. 89.

    Joel

    March 22, 2011 at 6:23 pm

    It might be worth reading what some actul DFHs have to say on the matter.

  90. 90.

    FlipYrWhig

    March 22, 2011 at 6:26 pm

    @Joel: Interesting read, thx…

  91. 91.

    Paula

    March 22, 2011 at 6:34 pm

    I opposed going into Afghanistan after 9/11.

    I opposed going into Iraq.

    I oppose US involvement in defending the Libya no-fly zone, even if the exercise turns out well in the end.

    Do I win something yet?

  92. 92.

    Todd Dugdale

    March 22, 2011 at 6:43 pm

    @FlipYrWhig:
    “Putting faith in that as a real “warning” rather than a threat seems a bit credulous to me.”

    Yeah, especially since the big humanitarian Khadafy thoughtfully cut off all electricity (and water)to Benghazi days ago. How are they supposed see this televised ‘warning’ without electricity for their televisions?

  93. 93.

    FlipYrWhig

    March 22, 2011 at 6:45 pm

    @Todd Dugdale: He’s just instituting a compulsory energy-reduction program for Benghazi. It’s really very ecologically forward-thinking.

  94. 94.

    HyperIon

    March 22, 2011 at 6:45 pm

    @JGabriel:

    gave useful info for getting free access to NYT

    I’ve logged in and out several times but I never get a

    Lincoln offer for a free subscription for the rest of the year

    I’m currently logged out and will try again tomorrow.

  95. 95.

    General Stuck

    March 22, 2011 at 6:45 pm

    @Paula:

    Do I win something yet?

    A flower in your hair

  96. 96.

    Wag

    March 22, 2011 at 6:50 pm

    @BGinCHI:

    Look at Haley Barbour. He’s a status quo Governor of the state that ranks dead last or almost last in every measure of health or success in this country. And he has the audacity to want to lead all the other states.

    At least he leads by example. Just look at his level of obesity. He leads the potential GOP presidential candidates in weight, just as his stae leads the nation in the BMI Index.

  97. 97.

    Keith G

    March 22, 2011 at 6:50 pm

    @General Stuck: Only if she is going to San Fran..sisco.

  98. 98.

    Cris

    March 22, 2011 at 6:50 pm

    @Paula: Do I win something yet?

    When was the last time you condemned Stalin?

  99. 99.

    Todd Dugdale

    March 22, 2011 at 6:56 pm

    @FlipYrWhig:
    Maybe you’re right. I thought he was concerned that someone might get electrocuted, so he cut off the power. Likewise, he cut off the water so no one could drown in their bathtubs. And to ensure that no one suffered from food poisoning, he turned away supply trucks headed for the city with food.

    Why are we hounding this poor man who simply wants a better life for his people?

  100. 100.

    srv

    March 22, 2011 at 7:09 pm

    @Todd Dugdale:

    Where was this humanitarian impulse a few days ago when he promised a cease-fire, and then was caught by the French red-handed shelling the very same city indiscriminately? I mean, this is the guy who is chaining children to tanks in the west to keep them from being attacked by air. But now he’s warning people! So our entire reason for being there is a lie, right?

    Uhm, he was warning them before the NFZ. Not that it’s possible for you hysterics to get your timelines accurate or anything. Since you’ve never heard of battery powered or car radios re Benghazi, I’m not sure how you think anyone could enforce a cease-fire while his entire command is being jammed. Particularly while we’re raining bombs down on them.

    And chaining kids to tanks now… I bet there are incubators in them too.

  101. 101.

    FlipYrWhig

    March 22, 2011 at 7:17 pm

    @srv: Come ON. You have to know how much of a stretch this is.

  102. 102.

    Paula

    March 22, 2011 at 7:20 pm

    @Cris:

    Knew I forgot something.

    And FWIW, I really do dislike broccoli.

  103. 103.

    JGabriel

    March 22, 2011 at 7:21 pm

    HyperIon: Like I said, it took a day for my invite to show up in e-mail. You’ll probably get your’s tomorrow morning, if there are still invites left and you’re a heavy user (e.g., daily reader) of the Times website. The promo ends on 3/27, but it’s also reportedly capped at about 200,000.

    .

  104. 104.

    srv

    March 22, 2011 at 7:22 pm

    @FlipYrWhig: Yeah, you went a little crazy with the chaining kids. Projection issues probably.

  105. 105.

    FlipYrWhig

    March 22, 2011 at 7:28 pm

    @srv: That wasn’t me, but, whatever.

  106. 106.

    Tonis

    March 22, 2011 at 7:31 pm

    If you opposed the Iraq War and support Operation Delta Dawn, then you’re a hypocrite.

    I respectfully disagree. Among other things, in the Iraq war we ignored the UN and bribed other countries to support our unilateral attack.

    In Libya, on the other hand, we have UN approval and we have the world with us.

    Furthermore, there was no imminent danger to the world when Bush unwisely attacked Iraq in March 2003. On the other hand, in Libya, Khadaffi was about to massacre to remaining rebels.

    If Obama, France etc hadn’t acted, we would now have another Darfur and the same people that are complaining about Obama would criticize him for not doing what he is now doing.

  107. 107.

    Shoemaker-Levy 9

    March 22, 2011 at 7:31 pm

    @Keith G:

    The U.S. is already droning Mexico.

    @Corner Stone:

    I’m pretty sure the next R President is going to need to develop a hard on for the South Pacific if he wants fresh peoples to drone.

    The Brits already nailed them. Damned inconsiderate.

  108. 108.

    srv

    March 22, 2011 at 7:31 pm

    And while no amount of facts would ever dissuade the fans of freedom, Benghazi’s power plant wasn’t attacked until right before the UN vote and it was still up that night.

    The published warnings are dated the 17th.

    Not that any facts matter here.

  109. 109.

    Svensker

    March 22, 2011 at 7:33 pm

    @Joel:

    It might be worth reading what some actul DFHs have to say on the matter.

    We don’t want to hear from them. They got punked by Glenn G. on Bradley Manning and have lost all credibility.

  110. 110.

    Hermione Granger-Weasley

    March 22, 2011 at 7:50 pm

    @Davis X. Machina:

    it was close.

    aye. If the Distributed Jesusland Congress had got in the loop, Qaddafi would have swarmed the rebels in Benghazi like an MQ9 Reaper on an afghan wedding party.
    It would be all over without a single tomahawk being fired.
    Cole would be happy.

  111. 111.

    FlipYrWhig

    March 22, 2011 at 7:51 pm

    @srv: By the same token, Slobodan Milosevic was just warning Croatians and Albanians that they might want to find new places to live! Probably he was concerned about the real estate market.

  112. 112.

    Hermione Granger-Weasley

    March 22, 2011 at 7:56 pm

    @srv: presumeably the Colonel understands that chaining carbonbased humans to metal tanks does not deter smart ordnance, or most ATD and ATA.
    But one never knows.

  113. 113.

    srv

    March 22, 2011 at 8:08 pm

    @FlipYrWhig: There isn’t anything you’ve said that is factually true, and much of it is demonstrably false (links above).

    So now you’re stuck with comparisons to Saddam Hitler Milosevic. All you and GW will ever have is Godwin. Enjoy.

  114. 114.

    joe from Lowell

    March 22, 2011 at 8:19 pm

    Gotta love people who are just certain Barack Obama is secretly scheming to steal Iraqi oil for THE EMPIRE, but discover their sympathetic nuance gland when it comes to poor, misunderstood Moamar Khadaffy.

    He’s ronery.

  115. 115.

    joe from Lowell

    March 22, 2011 at 8:22 pm

    srv’s story about the Benghazi-to-Sirte power plant and its bombing by Khadaffy forces is horrifying.

    No less so because a “warning” was given.

  116. 116.

    Corner Stone

    March 22, 2011 at 8:22 pm

    @srv:

    And while no amount of facts would ever dissuade the -fans- Fonzis of Freedom here

  117. 117.

    Superluminar

    March 22, 2011 at 8:39 pm

    @joe from Lowell
    but he said Quaddafi didn’t attack it until after the NFZ, so clearly that proves Obama is to blame.

    @Corner Stone
    Why, my leather jacket is very nice, thanks…

  118. 118.

    joe from Lowell

    March 22, 2011 at 8:51 pm

    There is only one Fonzi of Freedom, and he’s with you, Corner Stone.

    Congratulations!

  119. 119.

    El Cid

    March 22, 2011 at 8:53 pm

    @mk3872: Grenada in not the slightest way could belong in this list. What a fucking joke.

  120. 120.

    MikeBoyScout

    March 22, 2011 at 9:15 pm

    Dirty f***king hippies always complicate the fee-fees of real Murkins.

  121. 121.

    scarshapedstar

    March 22, 2011 at 10:58 pm

    I’ll withhold judgment until Helen Reddy weighs in on the matter.

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