But what about Boots Onna Ground™?
The latest on Libya:
The deal, confirmed by Nato secretary-general Anders Fogh Rasmussen, gives political oversight of the military action to a committee of the international coalition involved in the campaign.
Rasmussen said that the 28 member nations have agreed to act in order to protect Libyan civilians from attacks by forces loyal to Gaddafi.
French president Nicolas Sarkozy, who had tried to diminish the role of Nato in the Libyan campaign, conceded, in the face of determined Turkish opposition, that a new two-tier structure will be established to run the operation:
And this:
Americans are grappling with an unfamiliar role. They are accustomed to running things – especially when those things involve going to war. Not this time. As the west’s fighter jets patrol the skies over Libya, President Barack Obama has told his generals and diplomats to stand back. We have been shown the new geopolitical landscape.
Europeans – or at least the French and the British – find this territory equally strange. Nicolas Sarkozy and David Cameron put themselves in the vanguard of diplomacy to stop Libya’s Muammer Gaddafi. When Mr Obama eventually consented, he attached a condition: you want it, you can own it.
Consider this your daily Freak the Fuck Out About Libya Open Thread.
[via Financial Times and The Guardian][cross-posted here at ABLC]
MikeTheZ
Very well, I shall proceed to freak the fuck out about Libya
….fuck it, too tired. Someone else do it plzkthx.
freelancer
The restaurant Farva likes with the goofy shit on the walls and the mozzarella sticks? News about Quadaffhi gets weirder by the day.
joe from Lowell
Not remotely surprising: American role is limited, American role is shrinking, control of operation turned over to Europeans, no ground forces.
Surprising: there are twenty-eight members in NATO? Did we start including culinary schools and Boy Scout troops?
If NATO eventually includes every country in the world, will that mean there won’t be any more wars?
JAHILL10
I shan’t freak the fuck out, because this is what I expected to happen.
Now, where did I get that idea? Wait, let me think….oh yeah it was that Bush-lite Obama guy who said it was going to go down this way. Go figure.
The Dangerman
OMG! Americans will be operating under the command of some French Dude!!
/Republicans
Joe Beese
Who said this?
You’ll never guess.
sherifffruitfly
Who put the sand in Cole’s vagina anyway?
joe from Lowell
Wouldn’t it be awesome if the House Armed Services Committee scheduled hearings on Odyssey Dawn, and it ended before the hearings happened?
Maybe they can hold hearings on how that name was chosen.
Odyssey – a story about a leader who got lost in the Mediterranean, going from place to place and getting into all kinds of adventures with terrifying monsters, losing crew members all along the way, until he finally returned home years later.
Dawn – the beginning of something.
So, that’s just *%^$ing great. Someone in the Pentagon made a funny.
Omnes Omnibus
This is the kind of news I was hoping for with this operation. It is early days yet, but things seem to be going as planned.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
Hmm. Who was that dark-skinned young miss who told me with such wisdom the other day that I needn’t freak the fuck out…? She was was, that young miss was.
Angry Black Lady
@Joe Beese: good thing that this was multi- and not uni- lateral.
fucking language! how does it work?!
Angry Black Lady
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther: i don’t know, but that bitch is CRAZY.
Calouste
@ joe from Lowell:
Nope. See Cyprus.
Unabogie
@The Dangerman:
Book it.
But who cares? This is what I expected as well. And I don’t support any part of this, but they’ve been saying for days they don’t want a long term commitment.
mr. whipple
Looks like the people in Libya are happier with the UN/US/Britain/France then we are.
Joe Beese
@Angry Black Lady:
good thing that this was multi- and not uni- lateral.
Ah, the “Unless the UN says he can, and he’s a Democrat” clause.
Also, what the meaning of “is” is.
Moonbatting Average
@freelancer: You clearly need a pistol-whipping
IM
@joe from Lowell:
Do want to play the ugly american or what?
Iceland is a NATO country without armed forces. The number isn’t surprising, after all most of eastern europe is now in the NATO.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
@Joe Beese:
Actually, we will probably ALL of us guess, because everyone on the intertrons has been waving that quote since the NFZ was announced.
This country did not declare war on anyone. It joined a United Nations effort which, depending on how you read your law, was entirely in keeping with Article 42 of the UN Charter. Reasonable argument can be made that Article 42 can be interpreted differently, but it is not reasonable to say that what President Obama authorized flies in the face of what Sen Obama said back then. Because it doesn’t.
I highly recommend this extraordinary piece of exegesis on the matter: http://www.angryblacklady.com/2011/03/22/libya-i-hardly-know-ya/#more-45649
Konrad
Please note that (possibly) similar operations, in Bosnia and Kosovo, were run by the USA because the EU countries did not want to step up and commit to stopping violence they admitted was wrong. Hats off to Obama for getting the UK and France to follow through on their denunciations of what is going on in Libya.
Hewer of Wood, Drawer of Water
@Joe Beese: do you put this into every thread? Why are you wasting everyone’s time? Does it really give you that much satisfaction to trot out the same crap time after time? If so, what a pathetic excuse for a life you have
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
@Joe Beese: Oh, I see. You’re just being a dick.
And pie it is! Lemon, I think, for your bitter juices.
Cermet
@joe from Lowell: Uh, every country in Europe EXCEPT Russia – they were refused. Need at least one enemy.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
@Angry Black Lady: It’s the tides, ABL. The tides.
Angry Black Lady
@Joe Beese: yeah, if you want to dispute the meaning of words like “unilateral” and “multilateral,” you can go ahead and do that, champ. i suggest that you not go to law school, though.
i said i’d eat crow if i was wrong. i’ll pass you my share.
now change the subject to afghanistan like a good little derailer.
Lolis
I still wish we didn’t get involved but this is turning out to be a lot better than it could be. President Obama and his cabinet are handling this really well. I don’t care about the daily P.R. of this. Remember when some said the BP oil spill was Obama’s Katrina? It was probably Joe Beese. Haha.
Angry Black Lady
@Hewer of Wood, Drawer of Water: it’s not even correct crap. it’s sub-crap. he’s got his own dictionary and his own set of rules.
Bob Loblaw
When did NATO become space aliens? Someone should tell Adm. Stavridis.
joe from Lowell
@Angry Black Lady:
Indeed. If it was unilateral, instead of authorized by the Security Council under Article 42 of the UN Charter, it wouldn’t be specifically authorized by Section 6 of the United Nations Participation Act.
Incoherent Dennis SGMM
America will provide Command, Control and Communications. America will also provide, as it does now, 100% of the aircraft flying sorties over Libya. NATO will provide coffee and donuts as well as a heap of after-action criticism.
joe from Lowell
@Joe Beese:
Actually, it’s more commonly known as Section 6 of the U.N. Participation Act.
RinaX
I kinda remember some black guy saying that this is how it would go down when this started. Hmmm…
agrippa
@Joe Beese:
better that you did post ata all if that is the best that you can do.
But, this is a free country, so post whatever you like.
General Stuck
Looks like Obama is taking the opportunity to introduce the spanky new Obama Doctrine. Which basically says to western and rest of world, we will hold your hand but when the dance starts, you are on your own. Unless it is a vital US interest, of course. It is and will drive the neo cons fucking nuts for fear it will succeed, and ruin their patented brand of let’s take a sledge hammer to the pottery barn, and let the libtards clean up the mess. While the galtian’s clean up all the spare cash.
IM
And as far as i understand, NATO involvement will mean for the time being the existence of two operations. The old British – French – American one and a new NATO operation.
joe from Lowell
@Calouste: Hi, Cyprus!
So…what am I looking at?
Anyway, here’s the controlling U.S. law:
Butler
@Joe Beese:
Yes, some of us do watch “The Daily Show”. Imagine that.
Brian S (formerly Incertus)
I’m not a programmer, but if I were, I’d try writing a filter that added “Liz Lemon” to the end of everything Joe Beese says. It would certainly improve the quality of the text.
Cermet
If Turkey takes over general command (Note – a Turk General did command American troops in another operation – not uncommon), the Arabs will shit bricks because they fear those SB’s like no tomorrow.
Suck It Up!
Did I miss the conversation about Yemen’s leader stepping down? this is good news. One less country Imperial O will have to invade, yes?
joe from Lowell
@Incoherent Dennis SGMM: Not donuts.
Biscotti.
Butler
Which part of America did this “American” jet come from?
Corner Stone
@Incoherent Dennis SGMM: From the linked article it looks like the Turks and the Frogs don’t care for each other very much.
The article also doesn’t say who will do C3, just NATO. C3 guesses who that will end up being.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@joe from Lowell: Turks and Greeks staring at each other over barrels and barbed wire.
Josie
@Joe Beese: I can’t see why you find it so difficult to imagine that a candidate for office or a senator might have one view of international diplomacy and then change his/her view somewhat when faced with the realities of governing. I would assume that the president is in possession of intelligence to which we don’t have access and which might just have bearing on the decisions that he makes. The bottom line is that we voted for him and must trust him to make good decisions. Moreover, who else would you put in that office to make those decisions. I see no man or woman, Democratic or Republican, that I would trust more than Obama.
Davis X. Machina
ICC 100% sure to prosecute Gadaffi regime, says its lead prosecutor.
Incoherent Dennis SGMM
@joe from Lowell:
Damn! If I wasn’t older than the hills I’d join up. Love me some Biscotti.
pattonbt
@freelancer: God I love Super Troopers!
IM
Of course NATO while multilateral,is still X% US and that X is a big number. Not that it really matters to the morality or practicality of the war in Libya.
Bob Loblaw
@Suck It Up!:
You don’t know much about Yemen, do you?
Konrad
@Corner Stone:
It’s almost like one country is keeping the other country from joining the EU or something.
joe from Lowell
@General Stuck:
Do you think so? I see admin officials bending over backwards to explain that this is a one-off action, taken purely in an opportunistic manner.
The only thing that neoconservatives hate more than Europe having too little military capacity and depending on us is Europe building up its military capacity so they can take action independent of us.
JAHILL10
Cue fallback positions and renewed hand wringing over some other aspect of the operation in 3, 2, 1…
soonergrunt
I’ll believe that when I see it.
I don’t doubt the President’s intent and objective to turn over the operation to NATO.
I doubt NATO’s political (not operational) ability to run the operation for any length of time without the US in the leading role.
Incoherent Dennis SGMM
@Corner Stone:
I was going to use C3 but, I was concerned that it might be too much of a military insider term. I don’t see this new development as having much of an effect on America’s part in this fracas. The iron facts of capability and basing (Anyone else ever heard of NAS, Rota, Spain) will determine our role.
God bless the people going into harm’s way for this cluster.
Joseph Nobles
Daily freak out about Libya thread? Don’t we need an hourly one?
Calouste
@joe from Lowell:
Sorry for being unclear. Cyprus was a reply to the last sentence in your post, “If NATO eventually includes every country in the world, will that mean there won’t be any more wars?”, as the division of Cyprus was a war by proxy fought between NATO members Greece and Turkey. Although both Greece and Turkey being NATO members has probably prevented a full scale war between them in the last half a century.
BombIranForChrist
I eagerly await Newt’s new flip flop:
Flip Flop the First: “No Fly Zone” now, bitches!
Flip Flop the Second: “No Fly Zonez” R SUXX0rZ!
Flip Flop the Third?? What will it be? Will he call for a Double Triple No Fly Zone now?
Mike in NC
Some Neo-Confederate nostalgia time:
Read more: http://www.thesunnews.com/2011/03/24/2057796/pardon-of-1871-governor-delayed.html#ixzz1HZB4JtZF
soonergrunt
@joe from Lowell:
This much is true. The first is fodder for propaganda about why we have to do all the stuff and we should be in charge because only we can. The second would give the lie to the first.
Mark S.
@Corner Stone:
Yeah, they do seem to hate each other. But my brother and sister-in-law who live in France also hate Sarkozy, so it seems a common reaction.
joe from Lowell
@JAHILL10:
Which is fine! Our country just got engaged in another military operation. Hand-wringing would seem to be appropriate over any number of legitimate concerns.
Just not some of the more fanciful, hysterical ones we’ve seen over the past week or so.
Keith G
@joe from Lowell:
Section 6 of what?
joe from Lowell
@Incoherent Dennis SGMM:
It is. Do you mean this C3?
JPL
Isn’t it Thursday..What’s cooking tonight?
stuckinred
@JPL: Still in dragnet mode over here.
Corner Stone
@pattonbt:
I absolutely can NOT tell you how many times I type the word “meow” at the end of some of my comments, then erase it.
joe from Lowell
@Calouste: Ah, of course. I thought there were something Cyprus-related to say about the UN Participation Act.
joe from Lowell
@BombIranForChrist:
Flip-Flop the Third: Obama is ceding American leadership to the French, who will incompetently command, and probably molest, our troops.
Corner Stone
@Konrad: They have what we call in my neck of the woods a little “history”.
jazzgurl
Isn’t every damn fricking shenanigens ‘Obama’s katrina’? The fools that are this country’s msm are uneducated and insular as can be. They need to all expand their awareness, learn more about other people’s cultures, travel more and stop pretending they know sweet fuck-all about what they report on the middle east et al! What a bunch of pretenders filling up the airwaves with their daily drivel.
pattonbt
Although, in my opinion, the real hard yards and risks are yet to come (for the Libyan people and active coalition participants), it is nice to see the US’s leadership involvement apparently stepping back (with a big caveat for “it’s only words right now” – but they are important words).
If our (the US) leadership involvement does cease and our involvement in operations becomes minimal (of a support nature), I will be impressed and relatively pleased. But I do think this is far from over for those directly involved and very tough times are still ahead for the people of Libya.
Angry Black Lady
@Keith G: The UN Participation Act
I’m still amazed that all of the coverage I’ve seen makes no attempt to wrestle with the interplay between international and domestic law.
It’s much easier to make pronouncements in a vacuum that Things Are Unconstitutional.
joe from Lowell
@Corner Stone:
“Here on Viva Variety, we make fun of many different people – but none more than the Turks…How to Get Along With Turks – it’s the next best thing to not being around Turkish people at all!”
Anyone? Anyone?
jeffreyw
@JPL:
Cake
Uriel
@Joe Beese: We’ve discussed this. Ad-nausium. For days, now.
Move on, little turtle- sometimes slow and steady wins the race, but sometimes it just bores the fuck out of everybody watching.
You’re quickly falling into the latter category.
joe from Lowell
@Keith G: The UN Participation Act.
Angry Black Lady
@freelancer: littering and… littering and…
smoking the reefer.
that movie has the single funniest opening sequence of any movie ever in the history of everything.
Bob Loblaw
@joe from Lowell:
The real moral of the story is don’t ever try to assassinate the Saudi Crown Prince.
Because for all their high minded talk of humanitarianism, the US and Europe would have let Benghazi burn if the GCC wasn’t pulling all the strings in the Arab League.
Joe Beese
Ah, the old “The President has secret knowledge and we must trust in his goodness”. A Bush-era classic.
Uriel
@RinaX: Yes, but he was lying! I know, because random people on the Internet assured me of that!
joe from Lowell
I always thought that movie looked stupid.
Really? Worth Netflixing?
pattonbt
@Corner Stone: Chicken Fucker!!
General Stuck
@joe from Lowell:
well, I don’t suppose they would announce it as such, that is my characterization, but it is just Obama putting into practice what he always preached, getting the world involved in stuff like this, in a non cowboy way, and America more humble and part of a team. Which is the exact opposite of what the wingnuts are about with the US as some allegorical to a John Wayne country, superior and manly in every way.
In reality, it is the way America mostly has functioned both with gooper presidents and dem ones, with more or less emphasis on American involvement. The reason it stands out now as something maybe unusual, was eight years of Bush cowboy diplomacy and war fighting.
joe from Lowell
@Bob Loblaw: The list of people Khadaffy has managed to piss off is truly impressive.
You’re probably right. Now Gulf Cooperation Council support, no Arab League support. No Arab League support, no UN support. No UN support, no NATO support. No NATO support, no Obama, no specialized US assets, no mission.
Keith G
@Angry Black Lady:
@joe from Lowell:
Thanks ever so.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@General Stuck:
but what if we told the neocons, the obama doctrine is, the usa fucks them, leaves, then their gay european friends come over to cuddle and whatnot after we’re gone?
think they’d buy it?
pattonbt
@Angry Black Lady: I’m freakin out man!
joe from Lowell
@General Stuck: The last time we were in a wartime coalition that we weren’t leading was…what?
World War One?
Josie
@Joe Beese: The difference is that, being from Texas, I didn’t trust Bush any further than I could throw him. After having listened to Obama and read his books, I decided that I could trust him, if not to be correct on every detail, to think carefully and use his best judgment. He is a hell of a lot smarter than I am and probably than you are, so that’s the decision I made. I really resent having him equated with Bush, by the way.
JPL
@stuckinred: Earlier today they interrupted local broadcasts to show the swat squad. It has to be unsettling because this is one guy who is not going to be taken alive.
Uriel
@Joe Beese: OH MY GOD! You were right all along-it’s JUST LIKE BUSH!
Well, apart from the parts that aren’t that aren’t- but whoncares about that stuff when you’ve got a narritve to push!
General Stuck
@joe from Lowell:
Well, the leading part is new for the Euros, and why you could call it a new Obama Doctrine. I suspect with training wheels and daddy warbucks in the background pointing out potholes and such. I don’t personally care whether we lead or not, so long as we don’t put troops on the ground in any numbers, and make the others spend some of their coin and ordinance.
stuckinred
@JPL: Yea, that was a dry hole. We are dumbly just going about our business. I could pack but I don’t have a carry permit and I’d proly shoot some innocent civilian anyway.
You read that the guy did 11 years for a $3 stickup and his brother had a gun at a cops head and it misfired so the cop killed him. Sleepy little southern town.
EJ
@Angry Black Lady:
Do you really not understand that “unilateral” was being used in a completely different context in that Obama quote? The question was whether the President can make war without Congressional approval, not whether it was approved by the UN security council.
Corner Stone
@General Stuck:
In any numbers? Or as long as they’re “non combat”? You seem to be qualifying your line in the sand a little more each time.
Ron
@Joe Beese: Dear Joe, I know reading is hard and all, but the US constitution says that it AND ALL TREATIES are the supreme law of the land. I wonder if we have a treaty signed with the UN. hmm
srv
When was the last time NATO won a war (w/o us doing all the work)?
Ron
@Angry Black Lady: Yeah, Kucinich whined about the attack being unconstitutional, but he has a fail in his understanding of what the Constitution actually says.
soonergrunt
@srv: Let’s see…carry the one…divide by….square root….
Oh, yeah. The answer to that question is Fucking never.
you gotta do the math right, meow.
General Stuck
@Corner Stone:
teehee CS, that was a big hook with bait, and you swallowed it like I figured when I wrote it. Think some. The US is not going to insert troops into a hot war zone in a foreign land in likely anything under a brigade and they would be combat troops, for force protection and then whatever mission they might have, at least until all this is settled in some way. Then there could be advisors or trainers, or any number of different support roles. I don’t have a problem with that. My metaphor of ” a single troop with a combat mission” stands for now, and in the future.
So there is really no dif between what I said in practical effect given the reality of the situation right now.
Corner Stone
@General Stuck: It’s more likely you are doing a little CYA from your previous comments.
But, wevs.
General Stuck
@Corner Stone:
And this is likely you are doing a little CYA from being an idiot.
But, wevs.
Angry Black Lady
@EJ: and that question can’t be answered without reference to international law, which no one seems to care about, so whatevs.
John Cole
Hunh? I have nothing to do with this post. What am I missing?
Stillwater
@EJ: EJ, you might be right about the meaning of ‘unilateral’ in the quote. But what about the meaning of ‘imminent’? Surely even you can see how defending the rebels from Qdiddy’s onslaught is a response to an imminent threat to the US, right?
If not, I’m sure Joe from Lowell can splain it right up.
Suffern ACE
@Bob Loblaw:
I thought the moral was don’t sign too many production contracts with different countries. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4304284.stm
When I went looking to find out more about who he was dealing with, I found that pretty much every country with z company with whom he has signed a contract is either at war with him or abstaining from security council votes. Et tu Norway? He did not get much leverage. Maybe the more you got to know him, the less you liked him.
Angry Black Lady
@Bob Loblaw: i thought the moral was never start a landwar in asia?
Davis X. Machina
@Angry Black Lady: No, no, the moral was never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line.
Stillwater
@Angry Black Lady: You bested my giant, so that means you have incredible strength…
stuckinred
@Davis X. Machina: Whatever it is, I’m against it!
Davis X. Machina
@Stillwater: Not just any giant — if memory serves, this giant has a posse.
Joe Beese
@Josie:
Heh, I’ll bet you do.
Stillwater
@Davis X. Machina: Are you using Bonetti’s defense against me?
Uriel
@Joe Bee.se: Boy, you really kicked some rehtorical ass there! I’ll admit that at first I thought he/she brought up some good points- but then you posted a link to Brittany Spears saying something stupid about a completely different president, and I was like “DAMN! Game, set, and fucking match!”
You and Aristotle…
Martin
Well, the deal with NATO isn’t really the entire story, from what I’ve been able to suss out.
The agreement seems to be that NATO, who is handling the naval blockade, will also take over the no-fly zone. But NATO will not conduct any ground strikes unless shot at.
So that leaves a component of this endeavor – a non-trivial one – that NATO won’t be taking over. I think that puts things back with the French ‘let’s form a working group’ strategy to handle that component of it, but unfortunately, that’s the component that the US is most adept at. Anyone could do the no-fly zone.
So, this is a positive development, but not the whole enchilada. It’s possible now that France has 2 carriers in the area and the UK has 1 that we can still back out now that the really nasty stuff has been done, but there’s more still to keep an eye on.
gnomedad
@BombIranForChrist:
Infield Fly Zone?
nestor
Gee, look Candy…Joe Beese is here.
What a great party.
keestadoll
I think we’re missing the bigger picture here. We’ve been handed yet another new term to mock at will. “Kinetic Military Action.” I mean, COME ON!!!!!!!!!!!
General Stuck
Looks like the WP devil got this thread by the short hairs.
edit – well, it fixed itself. I love WP. It scares me a little, but I do love it so.
EJ
@Angry Black Lady:
So are you saying that international law (ie majority vote by the UN Security Council) potentially trumps the US Congress with regards to committing US forces to waging war? ‘Cuz if that’s true, I gotta say, shit, maybe the John Birch society is on to something.
Pococurante
Otherwise signing a treaty wouldn’t mean much, would it.