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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Open Thread

Open Thread

by John Cole|  March 24, 20111:40 pm| 303 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads, Assholes

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After reading the over-the-top histrionics from RonC and the rest of the manic progressives in the thread below, I’m to the point I might start closing comments and directing people to 4chan. Bunch of loser assholes who seem to exist only to convince people Obama sucks. Go somewhere where that is appreciated.

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Previous Post: « A Profile of the Libyan Rebels
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Reader Interactions

303Comments

  1. 1.

    Joe Beese

    March 24, 2011 at 1:42 pm

    Hurt fee-fees alert!

  2. 2.

    Cris

    March 24, 2011 at 1:43 pm

    4chan more like goatse.cx rite

  3. 3.

    Hewer of Wood, Drawer of Water

    March 24, 2011 at 1:43 pm

    @Joe Beese: no, I think it’s more of a trolling asshole alert

  4. 4.

    Roger Moore

    March 24, 2011 at 1:46 pm

    More proof that John is just an Obot.[/leftier-than-thou]

  5. 5.

    John Cole

    March 24, 2011 at 1:47 pm

    @Joe Beese: Just tired of the same bullshit from the same assholes. Don’t you ever tire of saying the same thing over and over and over again?

  6. 6.

    Dave

    March 24, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    @Joe Beese: No it’s more of a plea to say something productive as opposed to just a bunch of BS firebagging troll-based word salad.

  7. 7.

    Joe Beese

    March 24, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    @John Cole:

    Don’t you ever tire of saying the same thing over and over and over again?

    You mean “Obama blew up some more children yesterday” ?

    Yeah, it’s tiresome. I wish he would deprive me of material.

  8. 8.

    MobiusKlein

    March 24, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    Oh yea, that’s right, Joe is the jerker.

    And sure, Obama sucks in the absolute sense. But sucking on the curve of politicians in general? Not so much.

  9. 9.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    March 24, 2011 at 1:51 pm

    You know John, it’s not a truly free discussion unless people can ignore discussions, stick their fingers in their ears, and YELL AT THE TOP OF THEIR LUNGS. Discussions are for people who are willing to learn, and you know who else was willing to listen and learn? Obama!

  10. 10.

    EconWatcher

    March 24, 2011 at 1:52 pm

    I didn’t visit this site for about four months while I was extremely busy at work. Maybe I’m just remembering days of yore with rose-colored glasses, but it does seem that the number of trolls/delicate daisies/prolier than thou types has insufferably increased.

  11. 11.

    Zifnab

    March 24, 2011 at 1:53 pm

    RonC is an ignorant tard.

    That said, people are still pissed and disappointed. Obama came in singing “Hope and Change”. We all rallied behind him. And we got “Change” in so far as this Administration is leaps and bounds ahead of the hucksters running the Bush Admin. But as for “Hope”? Well… A third war in the Middle East might not be so bad if he’d pulled us out of the first two. I’d feel a lot less bad about Libya if we weren’t still hip deep in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    And this endless harping on the budget wouldn’t be so awful if Obama hadn’t allowed the Bush Tax Cuts to get renewed or kept the Wall Street Bailout money flowing.

    Liberals have a serious love-hate relationship with this President. I think that’s driven a few of us off the deep end.

  12. 12.

    You Don't Say

    March 24, 2011 at 1:54 pm

    Hey, it’s not as bad as Kevin Drum’s comment section today.

  13. 13.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    March 24, 2011 at 1:54 pm

    @Joe Beese:
    Except you said:

    Candidate Obama was a performance by the man you now know as President Obama.Candidate Obama was a performance by the man you now know as President Obama.

    and

    Oh, and Politicat scores this one…

  14. 14.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    March 24, 2011 at 1:54 pm

    It’s time to shut the comments down, John. Frankly, I’ve done all the comedy already and if there is an issue that requires discussion, we can do that offline.

  15. 15.

    Cris

    March 24, 2011 at 1:54 pm

    @EconWatcher: it does seem that the number of trolls/delicate daisies/prolier than thou types has insuferably increased.

    Maybe compared to four months ago, but you need to remember 2008.

  16. 16.

    goblue72

    March 24, 2011 at 1:54 pm

    Here, here. Too many privates who think they should be generals. Or political armchair quarterbacks who’ve never actually worked *in* politics before. The old adage about politics and sausage-making really is true. And if you can’t stand it being made, just STFU so the rest of can get our work done.

    We got problems enough with lunatic teabillies and their corporate paymasters firing on us non-stop – it doesn’t help matters any to constantly have idiots firing at our backs as well. Could Obama have done better? Possibly. But so could have 90% of the country’s past Presidents. Did he do better for what we want than a Republican would have? Definitely. So what’s the alternative? Have Joe Biden take over?

    Amateurs.

  17. 17.

    Benjamin Cisco

    March 24, 2011 at 1:55 pm

    Repetitive trolls are repetitive. That’s how they wear you down (or try to).
    __
    On a not unrelated note, had to go to a coworker’s office and she had Limpblow on. He’s going on and on and on about Libya and wailing and gnashing teeth and things of that nature. I actually asked myself the same question about Limpblow that you just asked Beese. And the correct answer, were they to be truthful about it would be: “Yeah, but it’s all I got.”

  18. 18.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    March 24, 2011 at 1:56 pm

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):
    (I don’t have permission to edit my own comment)
    And those two from the last thread are a continuation of the Obama-is-wrong comments you spew even in threads having nothing to do with him.

  19. 19.

    4tehlulz

    March 24, 2011 at 1:56 pm

    The only true solution is to set up a pay firewall to filter out the riffraff.

  20. 20.

    Joe Beese

    March 24, 2011 at 1:58 pm

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    It’s time to shut the comments down, John.

    Bah… that’s the coward’s way out.

  21. 21.

    J.W. Hamner

    March 24, 2011 at 1:59 pm

    Well the pacifist/warmonger rift in the liberal coalition has always been a pretty big one… so it’s bound to be emotional when peeps are settling grudges they’ve had since Vietnam.

    That said, if people are “disappointed” that Obama was willing to intervene with a coalition of international support and a UN resolution authorizing it… they were voting for some image in their head, not the man on the ballot.

  22. 22.

    Zifnab

    March 24, 2011 at 1:59 pm

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    It’s time to shut the comments down, John.

    That’s the coward’s way out.

    Maybe I’m just an oldfag harping on days of yore, but I remember Darrel was way worse than a dozen Joe Beeses and RonCs. You summerfags just need a little perspective.

    Obama-hating trolls are not the cancer that is killing \b\alloon juice.

  23. 23.

    joe from Lowell

    March 24, 2011 at 1:59 pm

    @Joe Beese:

    You mean “Obama blew up some more children yesterday” ?

    Link?

    (yeah, right)

  24. 24.

    Zifnab

    March 24, 2011 at 2:00 pm

    @Joe Beese: Ew, ew, ew, ew, ew.

    Bad mind-meld! I need a shower.

  25. 25.

    Justin

    March 24, 2011 at 2:00 pm

    @Joe Beese: Yeah, for God’s sake, John, don’t deprive Joe of his outlet for brave revolutionary talk, now that Metafilter hates him!

  26. 26.

    scav

    March 24, 2011 at 2:01 pm

    And to think there are those that used to laugh that Obama seemed to somehow drive his opponents insane — we’re getting it in stereo. BBC Radio 7 has some early John Cleese that is probably just as productive, not to mention certainly more pleasurable, than self-indulgent shrieking and posturing and the news isn’t far away when necessary.

  27. 27.

    Joe Beese

    March 24, 2011 at 2:01 pm

    And it seems like just the other day that Mr. Cole was preaching the virtues of IFI [Ignore/Filter/Insult].

    All of a sudden he’s clutching for the nuclear “LA LA LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU!” option.

    It’s a strange world…

  28. 28.

    Loviatar

    March 24, 2011 at 2:02 pm

    Obama, my hero

    /snark

  29. 29.

    Joe Beese

    March 24, 2011 at 2:03 pm

    @Justin:

    Yeah, for God’s sake, John, don’t deprive Joe of his outlet for brave revolutionary talk, now that Metafilter hates him!

    Heh heh… The poor mods. They were very patient with me.

  30. 30.

    Suck It Up!

    March 24, 2011 at 2:04 pm

    @Zifnab:

    I have yet to see any of this “love” that you speak of. Not from those in the online bubble.

  31. 31.

    New Yorker

    March 24, 2011 at 2:04 pm

    Obama didn’t get us a public option, John. Also, he needlessly turned Libya, a land of rainbows and peace and love and kittens for everyone, into hell on earth by bombing its, um, kitten tanks.

  32. 32.

    licensed to kill time

    March 24, 2011 at 2:09 pm

    ♪ ♫ Scrolling, scrolling, over the bounding trolls ♫ ♬

  33. 33.

    Uncle Clarence Thomas

    March 24, 2011 at 2:09 pm

    .
    .
    Thank you for the Miranda warning, Mr. Cole.
    .
    .

  34. 34.

    Svensker

    March 24, 2011 at 2:10 pm

    @Joe Beese:

    No, Joe, it’s not that strange. Comments now frequently devolve into bun fights between the Obama Haters and those who feel compelled to defend O. It’s really boring, and BJ’s comment section was never boring.

    I’d bet that most folks here are very mixed on Obama, liking some of his actions and being upset by others. The folks making it a binary fight — and those folks tend to be relative newcomers like you — turn every thread into a childish litmus test, where liking anything about Obama turns the liker into an immoral monster. It’s tedious.

  35. 35.

    Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen

    March 24, 2011 at 2:11 pm

    Don’t send them to Rumproast, they’ll be skinned and eaten.

  36. 36.

    agrippa

    March 24, 2011 at 2:12 pm

    Far easier to blame Obama. Which is fine; got to blame someone. He is a big boy and can take a little minor aggro.
    Far more accurate to blame the 111th Congress. The 112th Congress will be ven funnier.

  37. 37.

    Poopyman

    March 24, 2011 at 2:12 pm

    Mmmm. All of a sudden I’ve got a hankering for pie. Why could that be?

  38. 38.

    Pathman

    March 24, 2011 at 2:14 pm

    @joe from Lowell: Oh, you mean like these children?

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/03/24/afghan-civilians-032411.html

  39. 39.

    PaulW

    March 24, 2011 at 2:14 pm

    If you can’t handle the open comments of fully-crazed Far Rightists who Hate Obama… oh wait, if you can’t handle the open comments of fully-crazed Anti-War Hippies, then what you need is… a stronger sense of humor! You gotta LAUGH at these bozos, if only because Mark Twain mocked their kind 100 years ago, and Twain himself noted “Laughter is the only defense mankind has against the darkness”

    Don’t get frustrated: GET CRAZY! (starts singing the “They’re Coming To Take Me Away Ha Ha” song)

  40. 40.

    joeyess

    March 24, 2011 at 2:15 pm

    I enjoy posting comments here at BJ. So, if Cole closes the comments section I’m going to make it my personal quest to find RonC – and in the immortal words of John Cole – and punch him in the fucking neck.

  41. 41.

    Bob Loblaw

    March 24, 2011 at 2:15 pm

    Bunch of loser assholes who seem to exist only to convince people Obama sucks.

    The first part of that sentence would seem to preclude the second. In which case, why are they always so existentially terrifying to people? To the point where people had to go and write a greasemonkey script to put them out of their troubled minds. There’s a perfectly useful key on your computer with an arrow on it. I find that works well.

    @Zifnab:

    A third war in the Middle East might not be so bad if he’d pulled us out of the first two. I’d feel a lot less bad about Libya if we weren’t still hip deep in Iraq and Afghanistan.
    __
    And this endless harping on the budget wouldn’t be so awful if Obama hadn’t allowed the Bush Tax Cuts to get renewed or kept the Wall Street Bailout money flowing.

    1. Libya is the least warlike war this country’s seen since Grenada.

    2. Nothing much is going on in Iraq military wise. Obama kept his promise there. All the action is on the State department/horribly incompetent reconstruction side of the ledger.

    3. Yes, Afghanistan is an incompetent fiasco driven by domestic political and corporate concerns. It is the black mark on Obama’s legacy.

    4. That’s not how the bailout worked. Capital infusions from the Treasury were a one-time thing and not ongoing in 2009. The Obama protocol forced banks to raise capital privately instead. Of course, the way this was made possible was by allowing a fraudulent accounting of their loan portfolios. That’s why TARP was payed back so easily. There were no sunk costs because there was no heavy handed federal intervention into the financial sector, for better or worse.

  42. 42.

    pragmatism

    March 24, 2011 at 2:16 pm

    dear firebaggers,
    maybe it was your expectations that were erroneous???????
    love, the other side of the coin.

  43. 43.

    Mary Jane

    March 24, 2011 at 2:16 pm

    You see, John, these trolls are just little fish in the big ponds of GOS and FDL. (Well, I wouldn’t call FDL a big pond, just a loud one. Whatever).

    Their voices get lost in the common mass poutrage at those sites. Here they have room to satisfy their need for attention and argument.

    Easy peasy.

  44. 44.

    Sirkowski

    March 24, 2011 at 2:17 pm

    we’ve had a military coup over this nation and that Gen. Petraeus is president, not Obama?

    COOL STORY, BRO!

  45. 45.

    Tonal Crow

    March 24, 2011 at 2:18 pm

    Humbug, John. You love this fight, or you wouldn’t keep picking it. Plus, it boosts page views and thus ad revenue.

  46. 46.

    David in NY

    March 24, 2011 at 2:19 pm

    @You Don’t Say: You mean the comment section spammed with gay porn?

  47. 47.

    Cat Lady

    March 24, 2011 at 2:20 pm

    @Mary Jane:

    They should all just cut themselves and run away from home already. If I were their mother, I’d pack them a little lunch box with a juice box, carrot sticks and peanut butter crackers and promise to miss them some day.

  48. 48.

    gnomedad

    March 24, 2011 at 2:22 pm

    Vibrancy isn’t free.

  49. 49.

    jeffreyw

    March 24, 2011 at 2:23 pm

    Thread needs moar puppy.

  50. 50.

    Zifnab

    March 24, 2011 at 2:23 pm

    @Suck It Up!: Seriously? Go back to when Obama passed the DADT repeal. Liberals – from Dan Savage to Pandagon – loved him. Check with Atrios and the SUPERTRAIN-o-philes and their stance on Obama’s transportation budget. Ask the Green Energy guys at DKos or FDL what they think of Obama’s energy budget.

    A number of Obama’s policies have been openly lauded on the left. And many of us are more than willing to recognize that the problem with our government circa ’09 and ’10 wasn’t Obama nearly so much as it was the incredibly dysfunctional Senate. Hell, some of the biggest Obama-haters inevitably point to concessions he made to get various pieces of legislation through the Senate (sacrificing the Public Option, gutting FinReg, making tax cuts such a big share of the Stimulus Package, falling to close Gitmo).

    There is widespread support for many of Obama’s stated goals. It’s the delivery, more than everything else, to which people object. And that failure to deliver is a problem of Congress more often than the executive branch. Obama gets a fair bit of praise on the left.

  51. 51.

    Bob Loblaw

    March 24, 2011 at 2:26 pm

    I just took a five minute swing through the BJ archives to find this so called “better age.”

    So I checked in on the 2008 primary season. And I can say with 100% confidence that the site has never seen a less quality poster than myiqis2xu.

  52. 52.

    celticdragonchick

    March 24, 2011 at 2:26 pm

    @New Yorker:

    I love furry kitten tanks. Those 125 mm rifled…erm, ahem…”claws” can be a bitch when you try to rub their tummies, though…

    Really loud purr, though :)

  53. 53.

    Roger Moore

    March 24, 2011 at 2:27 pm

    @Zifnab:

    Obama gets a fair bit of praise on the left.

    Except for the handful of noisy idiots who want to blame Obama for everything that they don’t like and ignore everything he’s done that they do like. The kind of people John is bitching about.

  54. 54.

    Freddie

    March 24, 2011 at 2:27 pm

    “Progressive” is a weasel word that means nothing. I wish people would give it up.

  55. 55.

    MattR

    March 24, 2011 at 2:28 pm

    John – It may not be the uber-progressive response, but why not just ban those users that are driving you nuts. This blog is like your house and you have been nice enough to let us come in, kick off our shoes and put our feet up, but it doesn’t mean you have to let us repeatedly shit on the carpet (even if Rosie has gotten you used to it)

  56. 56.

    Sentient Puddle

    March 24, 2011 at 2:28 pm

    I want some pie.

  57. 57.

    JPL

    March 24, 2011 at 2:28 pm

    John, Not sure what you can do short of shutting down the comments or banning trolls. The trolls have decided to take over the comments and civil discussions no longer exist. It’s unfortunate because you have a terrific site.

  58. 58.

    Tuttle

    March 24, 2011 at 2:29 pm

    Here, here. Too many privates who think they should be generals.

    In every trooper’s knapsack a marshal’s baton. At least under Napoleon there was room to move.

    Or political armchair quarterbacks who’ve never actually worked in politics before.

    You mean the uncorrupt?

    The old adage about politics and sausage-making really is true. And if you can’t stand it being made, just STFU so the rest of can get our work done.

    Oh yea, THAT will happen. Any ole time now. Soon. Really.

    We got problems enough with lunatic teabillies and their corporate paymasters firing on us non-stop – it doesn’t help matters any to constantly have idiots firing at our backs as well.

    It’s like handguns for officers; We’re just doing it to keep you from running away. AGAIN.

    Could Obama have done better? Possibly. But so could have 90% of the country’s past Presidents. Did he do better for what we want than a Republican would have? Definitely. So what’s the alternative? Have Joe Biden take over?

    Demand he do better. Welcome to democracy asshole.

    Amateurs.

    Tools.

  59. 59.

    Dave

    March 24, 2011 at 2:29 pm

    @Bob Loblaw: Oh my…you got that one 100% right. myiqis2xu was legendary…

  60. 60.

    Svensker

    March 24, 2011 at 2:30 pm

    @Bob Loblaw:

    And I can say with 100% confidence that the site has never seen a less quality poster than myiqis2xu.

    Yes. But he was so much fun to ignore and/or mock.

  61. 61.

    Freddie

    March 24, 2011 at 2:30 pm

    Here, here. Too many privates who think they should be generals. Or political armchair quarterbacks who’ve never actually worked in politics before. The old adage about politics and sausage-making really is true. And if you can’t stand it being made, just STFU so the rest of can get our work done.

    Lord knows, there’s no group more covered in glory in this country than our political class. God like, really.

  62. 62.

    Mark S.

    March 24, 2011 at 2:31 pm

    I’m a little disturbed by the article in the last post that said the rebels have 1,000 men. I was optimistic about this thing because I was under the impression that they had a lot more:

    Al Jazeera’s Tony Birtley reported from Benghazi that “there is no immediate threat to Benghazi, and the rebels have a new commander, an experienced commander, who has defected from Gaddafi forces. “This is good news for the rebel forces as he is reported to have some 8,000 men with him and heavy weapons too

    Who the fuck knows?

  63. 63.

    joe from Lowell

    March 24, 2011 at 2:33 pm

    @Pathman:

    Oh, you mean like these children?

    No, I mean somebody in Libya.

    Since the horrible human cost of our…er…stopping Khadaffy from slaughtering his opposition is Joe Beese’s constant refrain, I thought it would be interesting to see some evidence of that cost.

    But, apparently, none of you can find any, so you just devolve back to Afghan and Iraq (whoops, not any more!) to try to find evidence that he’s just gotta be drinking the blood of Libyan babies with this horrible, colonial occupation.

  64. 64.

    kdaug

    March 24, 2011 at 2:33 pm

    Why all the new trolls? We gettin’ famous or somethin’?

  65. 65.

    Paul in KY

    March 24, 2011 at 2:34 pm

    @New Yorker: The M75 ‘FluffyHell’ is a hardened weapons system capable of firing poisoned catnip shells, as well as guided UCLRAM (Used Cat Litter Missles) munitions.

    Khadafi would unleash them on his own people (and kittens)!

  66. 66.

    Master of Karate and Friendship

    March 24, 2011 at 2:34 pm

    who seem to exist only to convince people Obama sucks

    Well, Obama sure doesn’t need any help with that.

  67. 67.

    Parallel 5ths (Irish Steel)

    March 24, 2011 at 2:34 pm

    I don’t blame you at all, John.

    Nobody wants to see the comments turn into a prissy little boys club of nodding heads like @ The League. But letting a bunch of pusillanimous turds drive off thoughtful commenters would be a pity.

    Got yourself a pickle there.

  68. 68.

    Dave

    March 24, 2011 at 2:34 pm

    @Mark S.: The article mentioned 1,000 trained men. Those would be the military defectors. There are more fighters, but they are the rebels who were throwing the rocks a couple of months ago.

  69. 69.

    comrade scott's agenda of rage

    March 24, 2011 at 2:35 pm

    Firebaggers no like us. Calamity Jane’s minions be roused!

  70. 70.

    eemom

    March 24, 2011 at 2:35 pm

    @licensed to kill time:

    giggling my ass off at that.

  71. 71.

    Paul in KY

    March 24, 2011 at 2:36 pm

    @joeyess: I’ll be looking for him/her myself.

  72. 72.

    Master of Karate and Friendship

    March 24, 2011 at 2:36 pm

    @Tuttle:

    Demand he do better. Welcome to democracy

    No! No! ! ! ! Leave Obama alone! ! !

    [hides behind “Hope” poster]

  73. 73.

    negative 1

    March 24, 2011 at 2:37 pm

    No one ever appreciates poetic similarities in the world… I am a pacifist, a fact that I am proud of. But even I recognize that the answer is rarely “anyone who engages another in warfare is in the wrong”. The similarity is with the glibertarians – sometimes the way for more individual freedoms is through more market restraint. Certainly there is an open debate for where that line is. We rightfully savage them for their troglodyte “regulation bad smash” bs, why would “he kills children” be more subtle? Khadafi killed children, the rebels killed children, so maybe staying out isn’t the answer? Obviously there is a debate on the subject that is proper, the issue is that Joe et al aren’t trying to have it.

  74. 74.

    eemom

    March 24, 2011 at 2:37 pm

    @Parallel 5ths (Irish Steel):

    hey, can you do (Greek Steel) for Greek independence day tomorrow?

    Dunno who we got independent from — probly the Turks. But it’s like a big deal holiday in Greece with schools closed and lotsa parades ‘n shit.

  75. 75.

    joe from Lowell

    March 24, 2011 at 2:37 pm

    @Mark S.: The article says 1000 trained men. Those are the defectors from the military.

    There is a much larger group of untrained protesters.

  76. 76.

    rickstersherpa

    March 24, 2011 at 2:37 pm

    Reference Obama, War, and the use of American Military power.

    1. Throughout the 2007-08 campaign President Obama said he would reemphasize the war in Afghanistan. Were people not listening? Perhaps he should have changed his mind, but he certainly did not go back on an anti-war promise as far as Aghanistan was concerned.

    2. He has kept the promise on withdraw from Iraq to date.

    3. On Libya he has gone in under an UN mandate, a Security Council authorization (which by the way creates a treaty obligation under the UN Charter to support the implementation of the resoultion), and at least the lukewarm backing of the Arab League and Turkey. We have brought in two other allies who are swinging in with almost as much wieght as we are.

    4. Finally, the choice was finally between intervention and letting Gaddafi’s forces massacere the City of Benghazi with the 6th Fleet sitting off shore as a passive witness. Samantha Power probably made the case to both the President and the Secretary of State that under the circumstances where we had the obvious power to stop a massacre and didn’t, we would be held almost equally accountable.

    In conclusion, I am not super happy about this little war and its likely outcome either, although the circumstances could not be more different then Iraq or even Afghanistan. But sometimes there are no “good” choices, sometimes there are only less “bad” choices.

    Finally, I kind of take being flammed anoymously by someone on the internet as something to explore how creative or uncreative they can be at the flaming. I don’t know why anyone should get so worked up about it. These people don’t know me and I don’t know them. It does seem that with the violence of their rhetoric, they resemble in their love of “peace and humanity” the Republican anti-abortionists love the foetus, e.g. the more abstract the human being, the greater the love. Real live human beings, not so much.

  77. 77.

    kgc16

    March 24, 2011 at 2:38 pm

    No, please don’t shut down comments. I’m mostly a lurker, but I learn so much here. In a world going mad, we need the humor, insight, and creativity of so many of the commenters.
    Balloon-juice is the only blog I read consistently, because it’s so varied and interesting. As for Joe Beese, he is a one-note Nellie with a huge hostility problem. I use the “scroll on by” method with him.

  78. 78.

    Paul in KY

    March 24, 2011 at 2:38 pm

    @celticdragonchick: Beat me to the joke! Dammit.

  79. 79.

    joeyess

    March 24, 2011 at 2:39 pm

    @Paul in KY: maybe we can take turns.

  80. 80.

    joe from Lowell

    March 24, 2011 at 2:39 pm

    @kdaug:

    Why all the new trolls? We gettin’ famous or somethin’?

    Ratfucking Republicans who see an opportunity to get fewer Democrats to prevent President Barbour from taking his rightful place.

    They must be so, so, so grateful to all the numbskulls who made their little pose appear credible.

  81. 81.

    Master of Karate and Friendship

    March 24, 2011 at 2:41 pm

    @Parallel 5ths (Irish Steel):

    Nobody wants to see the comments turn into a prissy little boys club of nodding heads like @ The League. But letting a bunch of pusillanimous turds drive off thoughtful commenters would be a pity.

    Just out of curiosity, when someone writes something like this do they ever wonder if maybe calling people “turds” and “little boys” might help drive off thoughtful commentary?

    I don’t recall any Socratic dialogues in which people called each other “loser” or “asshole” or anything like that.

  82. 82.

    bookcat

    March 24, 2011 at 2:41 pm

    @jeffreyw: yaaaayyyy! good things do happen. thanks.

  83. 83.

    kgc16

    March 24, 2011 at 2:42 pm

    @ everyone: Damn, you people are fast!

  84. 84.

    Paul in KY

    March 24, 2011 at 2:43 pm

    @joeyess: If it comes to that, we can set up a schedule. Once we find the little SOB, we can work out a schedule on the ‘interrogation’ sessions as well ;-)

  85. 85.

    J.W. Hamner

    March 24, 2011 at 2:45 pm

    @comrade scott’s agenda of rage:

    Firebaggers no like us. Calamity Jane’s minions be roused!

    Do we know why? This seems really random.

    Wait… maybe because we’re close to the 1 year anniversary of when Obama and Lieberman joined forces to drink their tears?

  86. 86.

    kdaug

    March 24, 2011 at 2:47 pm

    @comrade scott’s agenda of rage:

    Calamity Jane’s minions be roused!

    Ah. Got it.

  87. 87.

    Tim, Interrupted

    March 24, 2011 at 2:48 pm

    It is amusing that the BJ Kool Kids STILL flog the “troll” line. “Troll” to the BJKK represents anyone in a thread who disagrees with them and who dares to not slink away at the first insult.

    Seems to me the “losers” here are the Obots who can’t bring themselves to either engage or ignore commenters they don’t like without having their world shattered. Insecure much?

    Also, too, forthwith, and furthermore, the alleged “firebaggers” and “trolls” are what keeps comment threads hot on this site and gets JC’s hit count up. Why do you think he keeps putting up posts like this one, which are GUARANTEED to fan the flames?

    All of that said, I continue to feel that John is the best, most intelligent and balanced blogger/poster ever, and that ABL is awesome in every way, shape, and form imaginable, her postings defining the very boundaries of good taste, intelligence, wit, and humor.

  88. 88.

    joeyess

    March 24, 2011 at 2:48 pm

    @Paul in KY: I don’t want to spend that much time on it. I suggest we just punch him/her in the neck and smash his/her computer. We can play paper/scissors/rock to determine who gets which responsibility.

  89. 89.

    licensed to kill time

    March 24, 2011 at 2:49 pm

    @eemom:

    One hand on the scroll button wheel, salt spray in my face, bravely I sail on past the singing sirens trolls. Tie me to the mast if you must, I will not falter!

  90. 90.

    Joe Beese

    March 24, 2011 at 2:50 pm

    @Svensker:

    The folks making it a binary fight

  91. 91.

    Master of Karate and Friendship

    March 24, 2011 at 2:50 pm

    @joe from Lowell:

    Ratfucking Republicans who see an opportunity to get fewer Democrats to prevent President Barbour from taking his rightful place.

    So, if you’re not with us, you’re against us?

    I also appreciate the “sure Obama could do better, but so could everyone!” It’s amazing how the excuses offered by Bush backers are being recycled by Obama boosters just a few years later. Has anyone dragged out the “he’s just getting publicity for a book” trope yet?

  92. 92.

    Valdivia

    March 24, 2011 at 2:51 pm

    Where is my Soros check?

    Really are these people insane?

  93. 93.

    fraught

    March 24, 2011 at 2:52 pm

    John: Stay away from the comments for a day or two. There are plenty of people here who can handle the trolls even though I think we do put too much food in the pig trough and they hang around a bit longer than necessary because they’re by nature used to slurping up the dregs. That guy this morning was so amped so early that I had the feeling he’d already beaten up his wife and had texted his mom that she was a whore for having him. He burned out eventually and is sleeping it off in line to use the soda can recycling machine in Yonkers or someplace.
    The commenters here are quite adept at handling moments of chaotic temperament. even yours.

  94. 94.

    Martin

    March 24, 2011 at 2:52 pm

    Well, looks like we got an agreement for a NATO takeover of the Libya operation. Obama must be so pissed that his dreams of African conquest (as the firebaggers have informed us is the true motivation here) will now be dashed.

  95. 95.

    Cris

    March 24, 2011 at 2:53 pm

    You guys, Rantin’ John Cole isn’t actually planning to shut down comments, he was making a reference to the ABL drama from a couple days ago.

  96. 96.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    March 24, 2011 at 2:53 pm

    Get yer piece said, folks. We’re closing this baby down. It’s been a good run but all good things must come to an end. Ever heard of entropy? Aye, she’s a harsh mistress.

  97. 97.

    joeyess

    March 24, 2011 at 2:53 pm

    BTW, Cole, when are you going to take the opportunity of setting loose the borg that is the BJ commentariat on The Mustache of Freedom, John Stossel for his exaltation of our government’s benevolent treatment of Native Americans?

  98. 98.

    hilts

    March 24, 2011 at 2:55 pm

    Maine governor tries to disappear labor history

    An artist and a historian who worked together to create a 36-foot mural depicting Maine labor history are decrying the governor’s plan to remove the artwork from the lobby of the state Department of Labor in Augusta. The mural, which was painted by the artist Judy Taylor and went up in 2008, features eleven panels with scenes of work life and important moments in Maine’s labor history including: child labor, young women at textile mills, the introduction of the secret ballot for union votes, a failed 1937 strike to improve working conditions for women at shoe mills, and FDR Labor Secretary Frances Perkins, who had family roots in Maine. Taylor told Salon she is “very disappointed” with Republican Gov. Paul LePage’s plan to remove the mural. LePage, who has supported anti-union legislation, said this week the mural “sends a message that we’re one-sided, and I don’t want to send that message.” His office said “the message from state agencies needs to be balanced.”

    h/t http://www.salon.com/news/politics/republican_party/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2011/03/24/lepage_maine_labor_mural

  99. 99.

    Master of Karate and Friendship

    March 24, 2011 at 2:56 pm

    @Joe Beese:

    the women and children Obama has butchered with his war crimes

    But he said he would do it during the campaign! So that makes it alright! ! ! ! !

  100. 100.

    Pathman

    March 24, 2011 at 2:56 pm

    @joe from Lowell: Oh, that makes the killing of children ok then. Whew! Glad we got that straight.

  101. 101.

    Martin

    March 24, 2011 at 2:56 pm

    @joeyess: Leave Stossel alone. He’s got a point – if the Native Americans don’t like it here and can’t find a way to survive given our incredible national bounty, they can just go the fuck back where they came from.

  102. 102.

    MattR

    March 24, 2011 at 2:57 pm

    @Joe Beese:

    If you can’t bear to be reminded of them – and that’s the theatrical yawns from the complainers amount to – I’ve got no sympathy for you.

    Yep. Everyone’s complaint is being reminded of them. That is the problem. It’s not that every conversation turns into an opportunity for you to remind people of this. 95% of your comments add nothing to the actual conversation at hand. You are simply the anti-Obama version of Mike Kay (though at least he occassionally provides humor)

  103. 103.

    singfoom

    March 24, 2011 at 2:58 pm

    Snarky balloon-juicers are snarky. One-note commenters are one-notey. Binary commenters only recognize two choices. Nuanced commenters are rare.

    Closing down the comments is a bad idea, one that I think hasn’t actually been really considered.

    I don’t have much more, just that nuance is needed, motherfuckers.

  104. 104.

    Corner Stone

    March 24, 2011 at 2:59 pm

    @Paul in KY:

    The M75 ‘FluffyHell’ is a hardened weapons system

    “You go back and you tell ’em I’m coming! And I’m bringing FluffyHell with me!”
    /Tombstone

  105. 105.

    kdaug

    March 24, 2011 at 2:59 pm

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    Ever heard of entropy? Aye, she’s a harsh mistress.

    Yup. Feel her in my knees every goddamned morning. Ah, well, we had some good runs.

  106. 106.

    Master of Karate and Friendship

    March 24, 2011 at 3:00 pm

    @John Cole:

    Just tired of the same bullshit from the same assholes. Don’t you ever tire of saying the same thing over and over and over again?

    Um, how many times have you posted “man I’m tired of people coming here and angrily denouncing Obama!” on the front page?

  107. 107.

    Valdivia

    March 24, 2011 at 3:01 pm

    @Martin:

    No, no, haven’t you heard. It is the Soros dream of evil sociaIst takeover!

  108. 108.

    Corner Stone

    March 24, 2011 at 3:02 pm

    @Freddie:

    “Progressive” is a weasel word that means nothing. I wish people would give it up

    It kind of means everything and nothing. Obviously why some choose to keep flogging it here.

  109. 109.

    Suck It Up!

    March 24, 2011 at 3:03 pm

    @Zifnab:

    openly lauded until they manufacture the next poutrage. All I ever see are feelings/opinions that range from “meh” to downright disgust. What I see is that Obama could do 99 things right and then 1 perceived or actual wrong is what they focus on. and never let. it. go.

  110. 110.

    trollhattan

    March 24, 2011 at 3:03 pm

    FWIW before HBO does an Obama miniseries detailing how he’s failed us and not even changed that burned-out closet lightbulb like we’ve asked, what, ten times? they’ll be tackling that other Enemy of America(tm), darlin’ Dick Cheney.

    http://www.fancast.com/blogs/2011/tv-news/hbo-explores-the-dark-side-with-dick-cheney-miniseries/

    Compare and contrast?

  111. 111.

    joe from Lowell

    March 24, 2011 at 3:04 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship:

    So, if you’re not with us, you’re against us?

    The question, pal, was about the NEW trolls. You might have noticed that word the first time.

    It’s an incredible act of blindness of your part not to understand that there are people who actually do this.

  112. 112.

    Master of Karate and Friendship

    March 24, 2011 at 3:05 pm

    There seem to be people here who think America is no longer in Iraq. How many tens of thousands of troops do we have there, taking fire and drawing combat pay? 50,000 or so? I read on the news that a US soldier died from a roadside bomb over the weekend. As the saying goes, people are entitled to their own opinions but not their own facts.

  113. 113.

    singfoom

    March 24, 2011 at 3:05 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship:

    This can only lead to one thing. People coming into threads, blaming John Cole for everything wrong in the comments and then ColeBots, reflexively defending John against attacks from binary commenters.

    The world is not binary. Wishing does not make it so. Pointing out that the choices are not binary to a binary commenter usually gets no results.

    Nuance is needed. But nuance requires understanding.

    And really people, what’s so wrong with peace love and understanding?

  114. 114.

    Paul in KY

    March 24, 2011 at 3:06 pm

    @joeyess: That’ll do.

  115. 115.

    Chyron HR

    March 24, 2011 at 3:06 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship:

    So, if you’re not with us, you’re against us?

    That would be the central thesis of everything you and the other members of the prog purity squad post, yeah.

  116. 116.

    joe from Lowell

    March 24, 2011 at 3:08 pm

    @Pathman:

    Oh, that makes the killing of children ok then. Whew! Glad we got that straight.

    Try to follow me here. It’s not that difficult.

    Joe Beese kept asserting that the Libya operation was killing women and children. He’s been doing this for days. I asked him for proof, and he has none.

    Absolutely none of this is a statement that killing women and children is ok; rather, it’s a statement that NOT killing women and children is ok.

    Sadly, absolutely nobody on the so-called-anti-imperialist, so-called-anti-war side of this argument is going to have the slightest problem with your dishonest douchebaggery.

    But good job demonstrating the sort of juvenile, brain-dead, self-congratulatory behavior John was talking about, and that makes it impossible to have a reasonable conversation.

  117. 117.

    Morbo

    March 24, 2011 at 3:08 pm

    I think reddit would be a better place to send refugees from this comment section than 4chan. Much more circlejerking plus you get upvotes and recognition.

  118. 118.

    Corner Stone

    March 24, 2011 at 3:08 pm

    @Cris:

    he was making a reference to the ABL drama from a couple days ago.

    What was that drama about?

  119. 119.

    virag

    March 24, 2011 at 3:09 pm

    @Martin:

    excellent.

  120. 120.

    Paul in KY

    March 24, 2011 at 3:09 pm

    @Corner Stone: Man, that gets my patriotic juices flowing (sniff).

  121. 121.

    celticdragonchick

    March 24, 2011 at 3:09 pm

    @Paul in KY:

    Sorry…

    ;)

  122. 122.

    Corner Stone

    March 24, 2011 at 3:09 pm

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    Aye, she’s a harsh mistress.

    I could totally enjoy a harsh mistress about right now.

    …In a mutually beneficial and supportive kind of relationship way, of course.

  123. 123.

    Master of Karate and Friendship

    March 24, 2011 at 3:10 pm

    @joe from Lowell:

    The question, pal, was about the NEW trolls. You might have noticed that word the first time.

    Yes buddy, but do you really, truly think that people who come here to drop a complaint about Obama are Republican operatives trying to destroy the presidency from inside? Isn’t that just a little paranoid, friend?

    It’s an incredible act of blindness of your part not to understand that there are people who actually do this.

    More incredible than thinking there is no more US combat footprint in Iraq?

    And who are these trolls? Name some names, if there are so many and so easy to spot.

  124. 124.

    Fuck U6: A More Accurate Measure of the Total Amount of Duck-Fuckery in the Economy

    March 24, 2011 at 3:11 pm

    I think it ironic that the one confirmed ratfucker sock-puppet actually fight right in with the juicebagger conservadem groupthink coalition.

  125. 125.

    quickly

    March 24, 2011 at 3:11 pm

    why not just do what you did with ABL and make RonC a front page poster?

    well, I like reading the rest anyway.

  126. 126.

    Bob Loblaw

    March 24, 2011 at 3:13 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship:

    Yes, and a Balkan dude shot up an army convoy in Germany. Being a soldier overseas is never a 100% safe occupation, even in areas that are no longer combat oriented.

  127. 127.

    joe from Lowell

    March 24, 2011 at 3:13 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship:

    There seem to be people here who think America is no longer in Iraq.

    There seem to be people here who don’t understand what a timeline is.

    It’s amazing how many things – what a timeline for withdrawal is, what unilateral means, what an occupation means – the so-called-anti-war people have forgotten in the last two years. Things they absolutely used to go to the mat for, they just pass on the street without recognizing anymore.

  128. 128.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    March 24, 2011 at 3:14 pm

    @Fuck U6: A More Accurate Measure of the Total Amount of Duck-Fuckery in the Economy:

    I think it ironic that the one confirmed ratfucker sock-puppet actually fight right in with the juicebagger conservadem groupthink coalition.

    All five of him.

  129. 129.

    JAHILL10

    March 24, 2011 at 3:14 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship: Boy, some people can’t even tell when they’ve been spanked.

    I have a nephew that has just been shipped to Iraq. You know what his mission is? Doing legal work to help wind down operations there. Women and baby killing, not so much.

  130. 130.

    Master of Karate and Friendship

    March 24, 2011 at 3:15 pm

    @trollhattan:

    before HBO does an Obama miniseries detailing how he’s failed us and not even changed that burned-out closet lightbulb like we’ve asked, what, ten times?

    Oh, I see. You think being ticked that Obama is cruise-missiling innocent people in Pakistan or Yemen or Afghanistan is akin to complaining about a burnt-out lightbulb. Nice.

  131. 131.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    March 24, 2011 at 3:15 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    I could totally enjoy a harsh mistress about right now.

    Have you met eemom?

  132. 132.

    Paul in KY

    March 24, 2011 at 3:17 pm

    @celticdragonchick: We military types seem to think alike. Even when it comes to creating death-dealing kitten tanks.

  133. 133.

    Martin

    March 24, 2011 at 3:17 pm

    @joe from Lowell: You’ve got your cause and effect backward. Women and children are being killed because we hatesessssss the Obama.

  134. 134.

    joe from Lowell

    March 24, 2011 at 3:18 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship:

    Yes buddy, but do you really, truly think that people who come here to drop a complaint about Obama are Republican operatives trying to destroy the presidency from inside?

    Some of them, yes.

    Isn’t that just a little paranoid, friend?

    No, not even the slightest. Don’t you remember the article from about a month ago, with the interview with the kid who was paid to do that?

    More incredible than thinking there is no more US combat footprint in Iraq?

    I will pay you one million dollars for every quote you can put up in which I’ve claimed there is no more US combat footprint in Iraq. If you can’t, you pay me one million dollars.

    So, are you going to take the bet, or slink off? Or just whine about how unfair it is for my to point out that you’re making shit up?

    I’m going to guess Door #3.

  135. 135.

    singfoom

    March 24, 2011 at 3:19 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship: I’m curious, have you ever heard of the word delegation?

    I ask this seriously. The picture you paint of Obama (or at least the one I perceive from your posts) is that of a crazy warmonger at a desk, pushing a big red button over and over again, laughing as people get blown up by missiles.

    Do you think the President personally oversees and sits in a war room with generals each time a missile is launched?

    Or perhaps, the President sits down with his military advisors, asks for their advice, asks questions and then sets down a general policy which they implement?

    True, his decisions for a specific policy may lead to innocent deaths, but aren’t you ignoring the layers of people who also make decisions?

    Is it Obama’s fault that there was a kill squad in Afghanistan?

  136. 136.

    celticdragonchick

    March 24, 2011 at 3:19 pm

    @Joe Beese:

    I think you feel that I’m calling you an immoral monster by always flinging into your face the women and children Obama has butchered with his war crimes. But that’s just my attempt to keep you intellectually honest.

    I have no doubt you will be at the forefront of any petition to bring back the King’s Second Land Pattern Brown Bess Musket as the arm of choice for any future war. That way, we can forget about helicopters and airplanes etc with all those unsightly civilian death that occur from time to time.

    Oh, wait a minute…

  137. 137.

    celticdragonchick

    March 24, 2011 at 3:21 pm

    @Paul in KY:

    We military types seem to think alike. Even when it comes to creating death-dealing kitten tanks.

    LOL!

    I couldn’t resist messing with that one!

    A furry T-72 that chases the vermin around your house? I want one!

  138. 138.

    Master of Karate and Friendship

    March 24, 2011 at 3:22 pm

    @JAHILL10:

    @joe from Lowell:

    From comment #41:

    “Nothing much is going on in Iraq military wise. ”

    From comment #63:

    “But, apparently, none of you can find any, so you just devolve back to Afghan and Iraq (whoops, not any more!)”

    Joe from Lowell, do you want to tell the family of that dead soldier that “nothing much is happening in Iraq military-wise” or should I?

    JAHILL, do you really, honestly believe that one soldier going to Iraq to do non-combat work means there is little or no combat happening in Iraq right now? Could anyone possibly be so bad at simple, basic logic?

  139. 139.

    Parallel 5ths (Irish Steel)

    March 24, 2011 at 3:22 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship: Thoughtful commenters ≠ polite commenters.

    Even the FPers can blister the paint with their language. Why don’t you go back to whatever sanitized playground you wandered in from? You are probably too innocent and sweet to be here without supervision.

  140. 140.

    nancydarling

    March 24, 2011 at 3:23 pm

    @Joe Beese: Beese, you dont make me laugh and I don’t learn anything from you. So, what are you good for?

  141. 141.

    Phoebe

    March 24, 2011 at 3:24 pm

    @Zifnab: Yeah. Exactly.

    I’m a DFH who is opposed to all war, and I always knew that Obama and I parted ways on that one [and the death penalty, despite his stellar work in Illinois on that], and I never voted for Kucinich or Nader for the same reason that I never wrote-in my mom’s name, and my hopes were only that Obama would be much better than Bush/better than McCain would’ve been. Those expectations have been met.

    But still. I can’t get mad at people who are mad. I’m tired of depressing things coming down the pike, things like people being fired for disagreeing with the administration, just thuggy shit like that.

    Let people get their bitch on, even if they disagree with you. Even if they disagree with me.

  142. 142.

    Master of Karate and Friendship

    March 24, 2011 at 3:25 pm

    @singfoom:

    True, his decisions for a specific policy may lead to innocent deaths, but aren’t you ignoring the layers of people who also make decisions?

    Who the f**k is ultimately in charge?

    This is one thing about hardcore Obama supporters that gets me: everything good that happens is because of him, nothing bad that happens is his fault. “He didn’t personally approve the Deepwater Horizon. He didn’t fire those rockets with his own physical hands”. Please!

  143. 143.

    drkrick

    March 24, 2011 at 3:26 pm

    When usernames I’ve never seen before appear singing the “Obama’s no better than Bush” chorus, I suspect there’s some Koch cash on the way to someone’s pocket.

    The FISA votes in the summer of 2010 were enough to tell me I was going to be unhappy with Obama early and often, but you have to be better than half blind not to see that from any lefty perspective he’s an improvement over Bush, McCain or anyone else the GOP is likely to put up between now and 2012.

  144. 144.

    kdaug

    March 24, 2011 at 3:26 pm

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    All five of him.

    Ding. Question: whose payroll?

  145. 145.

    Paul in KY

    March 24, 2011 at 3:27 pm

    @celticdragonchick: Wow! Thanks for the link. Can you imagine the cojones it took to stand in the line & try to methodically do the 8 or 9 things you have to do to reload that baby, all while a screaming mob of indians/colonists/redcoats/hessians are bearing down on you?

    I think I’d have been a supplier of them rather than a user of them.

  146. 146.

    Zifnab

    March 24, 2011 at 3:27 pm

    @Roger Moore:

    The kind of people John is bitching about.

    Well, Suck it Up! was saying he didn’t see any positive statements from blogs, just bitching. And I disagree. There is a lot of praise when Obama succeeds in pushing a progressive agenda.

  147. 147.

    Roger Moore

    March 24, 2011 at 3:29 pm

    @singfoom:

    And really people, what’s so wrong with peace love and understanding?

    They’re not nearly as much fun as trolling and trying to piss people off.

  148. 148.

    fourlegsgood

    March 24, 2011 at 3:30 pm

    And yet you STILL refuse to talk about delicious bacon. WHat gives?

    /yes, joking

    also, perfectly happy with Obama. Is he perfect? no, but then who is?

  149. 149.

    singfoom

    March 24, 2011 at 3:30 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship: In an organization, true, blame flows up to the responsible boss.

    But a real world, nuanced view would realize that that person at the top doesn’t always get perfect information. So the decisions they make aren’t necessarily perfect.

    I don’t agree with this administration on many policies, but at the same time, I don’t think that every single person who dies in Afghanistan or Iraq is Obama’s fault.

    It’s more nuanced than “He’s the boss, so all the blame goes to him.”

    But as I’ve pointed out, binary commenters are binary and nuance is rejected when it tends to stray out of the A/B paradigm.

  150. 150.

    taylormattd

    March 24, 2011 at 3:31 pm

    @all of Joe Beese’s comments:

    Fuck off, you racist PUMA. If President Hillary had ordered a ground invasion of Libya while personally shooting Libyan children, you’d be busy explaining how it proves she’s ready at 3 a.m.

    The only remaining question is whether your performance art trolling of Balloon Juice includes a tribute to your employer Jane, in that you are writing your Obama hate posts while wearing blackface.

  151. 151.

    Corner Stone

    March 24, 2011 at 3:31 pm

    @Just Some Fuckhead: I don’t believe in beastiality.
    But to each his own…

  152. 152.

    singfoom

    March 24, 2011 at 3:32 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship: BTW, champ, if you’d care to poll the other posters here, the phrase “Hardcore Obama supporter” is an unlikely label for me.

    But again, enjoy your binary game.

  153. 153.

    Master of Karate and Friendship

    March 24, 2011 at 3:32 pm

    @Parallel 5ths (Irish Steel):

    “Even the FPers can blister the paint with their language. ”

    If someone wants to use strong language in making an argument, fine. But doing nothing but hurling insults and dropping bombs isn’t an argument–and hurling insults and dropping bombs while not making an argument then complaining that thoughtful discussion is declining is nonsensical.

  154. 154.

    celticdragonchick

    March 24, 2011 at 3:32 pm

    @Paul in KY:

    I own a Brown Bess from loyalist Arms. Beautiful weapon, but heavy and difficult to load quickly. I am a reenactor in a North Carolina Highland Unit (The 84 NC Highlanders…an actual unit in the Rev War) and at Guilford Courthouse last week I fired in ranks for the first time. Loading and firing from the kneeling position is a bitch and a half.

  155. 155.

    jl

    March 24, 2011 at 3:32 pm

    What’s a 4chan?

  156. 156.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    March 24, 2011 at 3:32 pm

    @kdaug:

    Ding. Question: whose payroll?

    I dunno, but if he’s doing all that work for free, he’s a fucking chump.

  157. 157.

    celticdragonchick

    March 24, 2011 at 3:35 pm

    @jl:

    A bad place in teh web where you don’t want to go unless you like haggling with obnoxious teenagers who trade scat pRon.

  158. 158.

    J.W. Hamner

    March 24, 2011 at 3:37 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship:

    Joe from Lowell, do you want to tell the family of that dead soldier that “nothing much is happening in Iraq military-wise” or should I?

    11 Americans have died this year in Iraq, and that’s an unfortunate thing… but it’s a lot less than the 60 in 2010, 149 in 2009, 314 in 2008, and 904 in 2007.

    So yes, that does count as “nothing much” since it’s a much lower death rate than something like logging or fishing. That doesn’t make it less unfortunate, however.

  159. 159.

    joe from Lowell

    March 24, 2011 at 3:39 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship: So that’s a big, fat NO to the question “Has anyone said there is ‘no more combat footprint in Iraq.'”

    That’s what I thought. You’re just taking the observation our involvement in Iraq is winding down, and are pretending it’s a statement that we no longer have any involvement in Iraq whatsoever.

    Bully for you!

  160. 160.

    Tim, Interrupted

    March 24, 2011 at 3:39 pm

    @drkrick:

    When usernames I’ve never seen before appear singing the “Obama’s no better than Bush” chorus, I suspect there’s some Koch cash on the way to someone’s pocket.

    And…so how do we know that General Stuck and Soonergrunt and other, newer Obots, are not on the White House pay roll?

    I don’t deny the validity of either of these possibilities, but your suspicion seems to only go one way.

  161. 161.

    Joe Beese

    March 24, 2011 at 3:41 pm

    @taylormattd:

    If President Hillary had ordered a ground invasion of Libya while personally shooting Libyan children, you’d be busy explaining how it proves she’s ready at 3 a.m.

    Who do you think was pushing for this ghastly farce? This is the war she wanted.

  162. 162.

    trollhattan

    March 24, 2011 at 3:41 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship:

    Oh, I see. You think being ticked that Obama is cruise-missiling innocent people in Pakistan or Yemen or Afghanistan is akin to complaining about a burnt-out lightbulb. Nice.

    Pick one:

    __Yes
    __No
    __Oh, I was mistaken that the post in question wasn’t about or directed to me. Oops!

    Nice ego there, Hai Karateboy. Take it out for walkies twice a day.

  163. 163.

    JAHILL10

    March 24, 2011 at 3:41 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship: I honestly know that my nephew has a better grip on what is going on in Iraq now than you do and guess what? It’s not combat. Combat operations are over. Does that mean that Iraq is a completely safe place for military personnel? No! But neither is downtown Manhattan. The point is they are no longer performing military operations. Simple concept? Apparently not to some.

  164. 164.

    Canadian Observer

    March 24, 2011 at 3:42 pm

    Yes, joe, instead of the US military you have mercenary war criminals like Blackwater and Xe to your dirty work.

    The occupation hasn’t ended in Iraq, it has just been privatized and outsourced, like the rest of your economy.

  165. 165.

    Canadian Observer

    March 24, 2011 at 3:42 pm

    Should read Blackwater and KBR/Haliburton.

  166. 166.

    Tim, Interrupted

    March 24, 2011 at 3:42 pm

    @taylormattd:

    @all of Joe Beese’s comments:Fuck off, you racist PUMA. If President Hillary had ordered a ground invasion of Libya while personally shooting Libyan children, you’d be busy explaining how it proves she’s ready at 3 a.m. The only remaining question is whether your performance art trolling of Balloon Juice includes a tribute to your employer Jane, in that you are writing your Obama hate posts while wearing blackface.

    CLASSIC Obot spew!

  167. 167.

    Parallel 5ths (Irish Steel)

    March 24, 2011 at 3:43 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship: Your issue was with my language, not my point.

    Try to stay focussed, dickweed.

  168. 168.

    joe from Lowell

    March 24, 2011 at 3:44 pm

    @Canadian Observer:

    Yes, joe, instead…

    Nobody cares.

  169. 169.

    Master of Karate and Friendship

    March 24, 2011 at 3:44 pm

    @singfoom:

    What a bunch of pure, unadulterated nonsense.

    Who decided that we have to stay in Afghanistan longer? Who gave the order to drop bombs in Pakistan and fire cruise missiles at Yemen? If someone other than Obama, surely he will ask them to step down (like that State Dept spokseman) if he doesn’t like what they are doing, right? Or is there an asterisk in that commander-in-chief part of the US Constitution?

    Oh, I’m sorry. Is that too “binary”? Is that not enough “nuance” for you? Sheeeesh.

    What’s right? What’s wrong? Who knows? It’s so hard to say. Let’s soothe ourselves with malarkey about subtlety and gradation and other palliatives so we don’t have to blame anyone, because that would just be so confrontational!

  170. 170.

    joeyess

    March 24, 2011 at 3:45 pm

    @Paul in KY: See? The BJ comment threads are a place of agreement and comity.

  171. 171.

    Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal

    March 24, 2011 at 3:45 pm

    @pragmatism:

    maybe it was your expectations that were erroneous???????
    love, the other side of the coin.

    boom goes the dynamite!

    who didn’t know, back in 08, that the next 4 plus years were going to suck, and that obama was going to inherit, a nearly unmanageable mess?

    cleaning up a mess is messy work, can we really say no to the u.n. on libya? really? really?

    just another facet of the position we put ourselves in.

  172. 172.

    Canadian Observer

    March 24, 2011 at 3:45 pm

    Of course you don’t care about Blackwater/Xe and KBR murdering Iraqi civilians. Because that might reflect badly on Obama and the Empire!

  173. 173.

    Ron

    March 24, 2011 at 3:46 pm

    @rickstersherpa: Um. This. I cannot much improve on it.

  174. 174.

    Master of Karate and Friendship

    March 24, 2011 at 3:46 pm

    @trollhattan:

    “Pick one:

    Yes
    No
    Oh, I was mistaken that the post in question wasn’t about or directed to me. Oops!”

    Does anyone know what he is talking about?

  175. 175.

    Canadian Observer

    March 24, 2011 at 3:47 pm

    Why do you think the US is building the world’s largest embassy complex in Baghdad if this isn’t imperialism and they don’t plan to have it under US dominance for a long time to come, joe?

    They’re already setting up big military contracts to the new Iraqi government to keep your billionaire blood merchants (defence contractors) happy.

    Perhaps you work for a defence contractor?

  176. 176.

    J.W. Hamner

    March 24, 2011 at 3:48 pm

    This Iraq argument is an example of one we’ve had a hundred times that never changes… I assume on January 1 2012 we’ll still be arguing about what “all” and “combat” means… and people like our Karate friend here will be insisting that pilots training Iraqis to fly F-16’s mean “the war is not over.”

  177. 177.

    Mnemosyne

    March 24, 2011 at 3:50 pm

    @Canadian Observer:

    Haven’t they been building that ever since the invasion? You’d think they would have actually finished it by now.

  178. 178.

    Canadian Observer

    March 24, 2011 at 3:51 pm

    @mnemosyne

    It’s the size of the fucking VATICAN CITY.

  179. 179.

    Joe Beese

    March 24, 2011 at 3:52 pm

    Let’s soothe ourselves with malarkey about subtlety and gradation and other palliatives

    Yes, let’s.

    Libya isn’t a war. It’s “kinetic military action”.

    ahhh… Much better!

  180. 180.

    Master of Karate and Friendship

    March 24, 2011 at 3:52 pm

    @Parallel 5ths (Irish Steel):

    LOL! Nice rejoinder.

    Your point was “it would be a shame if thoughtful commentary was driven off”. So, do you think calling people juvenile insults is the way to insure thoughtful commentary?

    “Gosh, that guy called me ‘dickweed’. He must have a really well-reasoned, insightfully-argued response waiting in the wings!” Is that what I’m supposed to think?

  181. 181.

    Canadian Observer

    March 24, 2011 at 3:53 pm

    A new embassy opened in January 2009 in the Green Zone in Baghdad.[2] The embassy complex comprises 21 buildings on a 104 acre (42 ha) site, making it the largest and most expensive U.S. embassy in the world.[8]
    It is located along the Tigris river, west of the Arbataash Tamuz bridge, and facing Al Kindi street to the north. The embassy is a permanent structure which has provided a new base for the 5,500 Americans currently living and working in Baghdad. During construction, the US government kept many aspects of the project under wraps, with many details released only in a U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee report.[8] Apart from the 1,000 regular employees, up to 3,000 additional staff members have been hired, including security personnel.
    With construction beginning in mid-2005, the original target completion date was September 2007. “A week after submitting his FY2006 budget to Congress, the President sent Congress an FY2005 emergency supplemental funding request. Included in the supplemental is more than $1.3 billion for the embassy in Iraq…” An emergency supplemental appropriation (H.R. 1268/P.L. 109-13), which included $592 million for embassy construction, was signed into law on May 11, 2005. According to the Department of State, this funding was all that was needed for construction of the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad.[9] Construction is being led by the Kuwaiti firm First Kuwaiti Trading & Contracting.[10][11][12]
    The embassy has extensive housing and infrastructure facilities in addition to the usual diplomatic buildings. The buildings include:[8]
    Six apartment buildings for employees
    Water and waste treatment facilities
    A power station
    Two “major diplomatic office buildings”
    Recreation, including a gym, cinema, and a swimming pool
    The complex is heavily fortified, even by the standards of the Green Zone. The details are largely secret, but it is likely to include a significant US Marine Security Guard detachment. Fortifications include deep security perimeters, buildings reinforced beyond the usual standard, and five highly guarded entrances.

    Sounds pretty imperialist to me.

  182. 182.

    singfoom

    March 24, 2011 at 3:54 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship: I’m not going post-modern on you. I’m not questioning what is right and what is wrong and how we can know it.

    All I’m saying is that a person gives one order and it goes down and other people may interpret those orders differently.

    This fact does not absolve Obama of guilt for you, I’m sure. You are correct that in the end, he is responsible, but I think it’s really lazy to ignore everyone else involved.

    And maybe you can answer my question I asked above. Is it Obama’s fault that those soldiers in Afghanistan formed a kill squad and went around killing civilians?

  183. 183.

    Bob Loblaw

    March 24, 2011 at 3:54 pm

    @Phoebe:

    I always knew that Obama and I parted ways on that one [and the death penalty, despite his stellar work in Illinois on that]

    Sure, “disagreement.” Because if Obama was the governor of Illinois, he would totally have blocked the formal death penalty ban. And come out publicly against gay marriage. Totally.

    He’s a liar with national aspirations. In other words, a President. So it goes.

  184. 184.

    Canadian Observer

    March 24, 2011 at 3:54 pm

    The U.S. has over 700+ military bases in the world.

    No doubt joe will tell us this doesn’t count as an Empire, because American Is Blessed By God Almight ™ to do whatever it wants in the world.

    American Exceptionalism is very similar to the German concept of the “Volk”, isn’t it? Scary.

  185. 185.

    Master of Karate and Friendship

    March 24, 2011 at 3:54 pm

    @Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal:

    “who didn’t know, back in 08, that the next 4 plus years were going to suck, and that obama was going to inherit, a nearly unmanageable mess?”

    It’s too bad Obama inherited the escalation in Afghanistan, and the Deepwater Horizon oil spill, and the decision to put Wall Street hacks like Summers and Geithner in key administration posts, and the horribly-designed and clumsily-implemented HAMP program, and the decision to continue Bush’s civil rights policies.

  186. 186.

    Ron

    March 24, 2011 at 3:56 pm

    I am sort of amused to see that people think John only wants people who agree with Obama on everything when he has been pretty critical (wrongly IMO) of the actions in Libya. There is a difference between “Hey, I think Obama is making a mistake and here’s why” which is what John and some others have done and calling Obama a warmonger or something along those lines which is simply laughable. I don’t agree with Obama on everything and honestly have been pretty disappointed for the most part with him when it comes to the “war on terrorism.” That doesn’t mean I will not vote for him in 2012. Not because I think he’s the best possible candidate, but because I think he’s the best candidate out there and there will be a huge difference between an Obama White House and one run by Pawlenty/Romney/whoever the GOP puts up. That doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be criticized, but I think comments like Kucinich saying his should be impeached are just stupid.

  187. 187.

    Master of Karate and Friendship

    March 24, 2011 at 3:57 pm

    @singfoom:

    You are correct that in the end, he is responsible

    No really?

    Is it Obama’s fault that those soldiers in Afghanistan formed a kill squad and went around killing civilians?

    If he had pulled us out of Afghanistan, which was the smart move, they wouldn’t have been there in the first place, would they?

  188. 188.

    Mnemosyne

    March 24, 2011 at 3:57 pm

    @Canadian Observer:

    Ah, so now you admit that they’re not “still building it,” and that in fact it’s something that opened over two years ago.

    Weird, that sounds so much less scary than “OMG they’re building it right now!”

  189. 189.

    Parallel 5ths (Irish Steel)

    March 24, 2011 at 3:58 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship:

    So, do you think calling people juvenile insults is the way to insure thoughtful commentary?

    For this site? Yes. It is fundamental to its(ETA character). Cole’s beef is with the soul-numbing repetition. If the usual suspects swooped in and deposited their usual contribution and then, in silence, trusted everyone to know where they are coming from, I think we’d all be fine with it.

  190. 190.

    Master of Karate and Friendship

    March 24, 2011 at 3:58 pm

    Just wondering, are “nuance” and “non-binary” the new 11-dimensional chess?

  191. 191.

    Svensker

    March 24, 2011 at 3:59 pm

    @Joe Beese:

    But that’s just my attempt to keep you intellectually honest.

    That’s why you irritate people, or at least me. I don’t come to John’s comment pool to get a sermon. I come to learn stuff, to get some snark, to hear different voices.

    To get preached at? No thanks.

    If you want to join a conversation, even a contentious one, that’s great. If you want to show me how fabulous you are and how screwed up I am, and how I need to follow your fabulous example, that’s tedious.

  192. 192.

    Dave

    March 24, 2011 at 3:59 pm

    @Canadian Observer: Here’s a hint: working through a UN resolution to stop a dictator from massacring the residents of a city is not the same as engaging in imperial overreach. Get some perspective.

  193. 193.

    Corner Stone

    March 24, 2011 at 4:00 pm

    @Canadian Observer:

    Perhaps you (joe from LoL) work for a defence contractor?

    He claims to do something with children/students if you can believe the awfulness of that possible reality. ***shutter***

  194. 194.

    joe from Lowell

    March 24, 2011 at 4:01 pm

    @Canadian Observer:

    Why do you…

    Don’t care. Go away.

  195. 195.

    joe from Lowell

    March 24, 2011 at 4:02 pm

    @Canadian Observer:

    Of course…

    Not interested. Go away.

  196. 196.

    Canadian Observer

    March 24, 2011 at 4:02 pm

    working through a UN resolution to stop a dictator from massacring the residents of a city

    So, how about Russia or China imposing a no-fly zone in Iraq in 2004 and strafing American tanks with missiles right before they went in to Fallujah, then?

  197. 197.

    Master of Karate and Friendship

    March 24, 2011 at 4:02 pm

    @JAHILL10:

    I honestly know that my nephew has a better grip on what is going on in Iraq now than you do and guess what? It’s not combat. Combat operations are over.

    “My nephew, the soldier, just got sent INTO Iraq. Clearly this means that there is little to nothing militarily going on in Iraq!”

    Be sure to tell your nephew to refuse his extra combat pay. Obviously, you don’t think he deserves it.

  198. 198.

    Mnemosyne

    March 24, 2011 at 4:02 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship:

    the decision to continue Bush’s civil rights policies

    Um, I’m pretty sure Obama hasn’t continued Bush’s civil rights policies. He may have continued his civil liberties policies, but his civil rights policies have been very different than Bush’s.

    Civil rights =/= civil liberties. Though it’s true that they both have the word “civil” in them, so I can see how you would become confused.

  199. 199.

    Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal

    March 24, 2011 at 4:03 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship:

    um, yeah, because there is a cost, political and real, in closing gitmo, in having the justice department not defend particular laws(which is why doma is such a big fucking deal),in letting wall st twist as the visceral types would have done, if you are butthurt that obama isn’t superman now, could he really have counted on you, in the shitstorms that would have followed, had he even tried to meet your expectations?

    i am guessing no,since you seem to imagine a world where there would be no repricussions, no counterattacks from the right, where 60 votes is really 60 locked down and whipped like the republican caucus 60 votes, and everyone was willing to take every hill , like it was a hill worth dying on.

  200. 200.

    You Don't Say

    March 24, 2011 at 4:03 pm

    @David in NY: Yes. ;-)

  201. 201.

    Canadian Observer

    March 24, 2011 at 4:04 pm

    Not interested. Go away.

    Translation: “I can’t refute anything you say, so I’ll act like I’m superior and run off like the water-carrying toolbag for Empire coward I am.

  202. 202.

    joe from Lowell

    March 24, 2011 at 4:04 pm

    @Canadian Observer:

    The U.S. has…

    zzzz

  203. 203.

    Master of Karate and Friendship

    March 24, 2011 at 4:05 pm

    @Dave:

    Here’s a hint: working through a UN resolution to stop a dictator from massacring the residents of a city is not the same as engaging in imperial overreach. Get some perspective.

    I, personally, don’t think US forces are in Libya to expand our empire there, because what do we have left to put there? But anyone who thinks an empire has never moved into new territory and ended up taking it over on the pretext of humanitarian goals needs to take a look at a history book.

  204. 204.

    Sentient Puddle

    March 24, 2011 at 4:06 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship:

    Just wondering, are “nuance” and “non-binary” the new 11-dimensional chess?

    No, they’re the en passant of 2D chess. Very few people know how it works, and think their opponent is cheating or something when it gets played on them.

  205. 205.

    Dave

    March 24, 2011 at 4:06 pm

    @Canadian Observer: Wonderful strawman argument. Well done. We are talking about this moment, right here. Not some concocted scenario that reads like a summary of a third-rate Tom Clancy knock-off.

    If you want to argue against the Libyan operation, do it on the merits. Do it from a pacifist viewpoint, or a “we can’t afford it” viewpoint, or a “none of our business” viewpoint. I may not agree with you, but at least we can have a conversation.

    But to argue that this, a UN operation where using ground troops is explicitly forbidden is somehow an example of President Obama wanted to expand the “American Empire” is nothing more that a bunch of bullshit.

  206. 206.

    Dave

    March 24, 2011 at 4:07 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship: And people who think that every humanitarian mission is an effort to expand an empire also need to read a history book.

  207. 207.

    joe from Lowell

    March 24, 2011 at 4:07 pm

    @Canadian Observer:

    Translation: “I…

    zzzzz…gzzzzt….snort…zzzz

  208. 208.

    Canadian Observer

    March 24, 2011 at 4:07 pm

    So, Dave, US troops massacring civilians in Fallujah? Fine! just fine! There certainly shouldn’t be any international action against THAT!

    But Libaya? Ghadaffi is a monster!!!! SEND IN THE MISSILES!

  209. 209.

    Master of Karate and Friendship

    March 24, 2011 at 4:09 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    Congratulations, you spotted a typo! Check the mail for your no prize!

  210. 210.

    Canadian Observer

    March 24, 2011 at 4:09 pm

    How is what Ghadaffi threatened to do to Benghazi any different from “Shock and Awe”?

  211. 211.

    Uriel

    March 24, 2011 at 4:09 pm

    @jl:

    What’s a 4chan?

    Nothing. It’s just a bunch of crazy talk jumble words Cole threw together because he was angry. Forget it you ever saw it.

    Oh- and dear god, what ever you do DO NOT GOOGLE IT. Ever.

  212. 212.

    jaleh

    March 24, 2011 at 4:09 pm

    Hey trolls, read this, it will cleanse your souls since you will find out that President Obama is not killing babies.

    “Hugs From Libyans”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/24/opinion/24kristof.html?hp

    Ghadaffi would have killed thousands if the coalition had not interfered, don’t you get it?

    BTW: I was born in Iran, I know more about that area than the trolls around here. I totally supported President Obama for the way he handled Iran in 2009.

  213. 213.

    Svensker

    March 24, 2011 at 4:10 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    ***shutter***

    It’s “shudder”. Shutters go on windows. And yes I’m irritable today.

  214. 214.

    Canadian Observer

    March 24, 2011 at 4:10 pm

    “Hugs From Libyans”

    Remember all the stories about flowers and hugs in April 2003 and the whole toppling of the Saddam statue?

    The corporate media is disseminating propaganda! MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

  215. 215.

    Dave

    March 24, 2011 at 4:10 pm

    @Canadian Observer: When the fuck did I say that? For the record, I think there should have been consequences for using WP as an offensive weapon. It was morally and legally wrong. Of course, you could have asked me that before assuming I thought that was okay.

    And again, you are making a strawman argument here. What happened in Fallujah has nothing to do with Libya.

  216. 216.

    Canadian Observer

    March 24, 2011 at 4:12 pm

    @Dave

    US is the country responsible for the vast majority of military deaths in the last decade. They have no moral standing to smugly lecture others about “war crimes” or “massacres of civilians” or “torture” since you all have done all those things yourselves.

  217. 217.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    March 24, 2011 at 4:13 pm

    @kdaug: You still there?

  218. 218.

    Corner Stone

    March 24, 2011 at 4:16 pm

    @Svensker: Thank God! I’ve been baiting you for days…

  219. 219.

    Dave

    March 24, 2011 at 4:18 pm

    @Canadian Observer: Oh really? Then fuck you and your morality since the Canadian Airborne Regiment tortured a young Somali man to death in 1993. I can’t remember the last time the US has to disband an ENTIRE UNIT because of what they did.

    EVERY country has their bad parts, and yes, we the US have more than most. But we are also the country more than any other (including Canada) responding to disasters around the world with assistance. It’s all well and good for you to say we are the permanent Bad Guy, but I wager there are a hundred thousand or more people in Benghazi right now who feel different.

  220. 220.

    OzoneR

    March 24, 2011 at 4:19 pm

    @Zifnab:

    But as for “Hope”? Well… A third war in the Middle East might not be so bad if he’d pulled us out of the first two.

    how many combat troops are there in Iraq?

  221. 221.

    Master of Karate and Friendship

    March 24, 2011 at 4:20 pm

    @Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal:

    because there is a cost, political and real, in closing gitmo

    But there isn’t a cost in keeping it like this?

    in having the justice department not defend particular laws

    For the millionth time: the executive branch and the Dept of Justice must enforce laws, but need not defend laws.

    in letting wall st twist as the visceral types would have done

    Why shouldn’t they be hung out? Would you get a bailout if you drove your business into the ground? Okay, fine, maybe some of those firms are too big to fail; then why hasn’t Obama tried to end that?

    We were told we had to shovel money at the banks so they would get to lending again. . . but they aren’t. We were told we had to give them what they wanted so they could get rid of the toxic waste on their books. . . but they didn’t. Surely it isn’t hard to see how “here’s a mountain of cash” isn’t a very strong position from which to demand changes in behaviour.

    you seem to imagine a world where there would be no repricussions, no counterattacks from the right

    So, you think Obama shouldn’t do something if the right-wing will attack him for it? That’s quite the loser mentality. I bet you noticed the mid-term election results last year. They counterattacked anyway. So, good job Obama: if your plan was to not take on the right in hopes of lulling them to sleep, it failed heinously. But hey, no one could have foreseen. . .

    could he really have counted on you, in the shitstorms that would have followed, had he even tried to meet your expectations?

    Me, and millions of others, waited and waited and waited to be called upon to help pass stuff like a public option–the way our phone calls and door-to-doors and envelope-stuffing had helped Obama get elected. Instead what we got was:

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703808904575025030384695158.html?mod=WSJ_latestheadlines#printMode

    where 60 votes is really 60 locked down and whipped like the republican caucus 60 votes

    How many of those votes were required to implement all of the specific policies I mentioned in post #185 combined? Answer: zero.

  222. 222.

    Canadian Observer

    March 24, 2011 at 4:21 pm

    @Dave

    Japan and the Scandinavian countries give a far greater percentage of their GDP to international humanitarian aid than the US, which is at the bottom of the list.

  223. 223.

    Corner Stone

    March 24, 2011 at 4:21 pm

    @Dave:

    I can’t remember the last time the US has to disband an ENTIRE UNIT because of what they did.

    I don’t think we’re in a real good position to start one-upping other countries’ indiscretions.
    Some small matter of 4000 photographs coming out of Afghanistan…

  224. 224.

    Master of Karate and Friendship

    March 24, 2011 at 4:23 pm

    @OzoneR:

    “how many combat troops are there in Iraq?”

    50,000.

  225. 225.

    Corner Stone

    March 24, 2011 at 4:24 pm

    @OzoneR:

    how many combat troops are there in Iraq?

    How many mercenaries/combat contractors?

  226. 226.

    Master of Karate and Friendship

    March 24, 2011 at 4:24 pm

    @Dave:

    I can’t remember the last time the US has to disband an ENTIRE UNIT because of what they did.

    I can’t remember the last time the US would disband an entire unit for doing that.

  227. 227.

    Dave

    March 24, 2011 at 4:25 pm

    @Corner Stone: My point simply being no country has a corner on being pure, which our Canadian visitor seems to think he does.

  228. 228.

    OzoneR

    March 24, 2011 at 4:25 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship:

    50,000.

    COMBAT troops.

  229. 229.

    Mnemosyne

    March 24, 2011 at 4:28 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship:

    Yes, it’s so easy to misspell “liberties” as “rights.” The words are almost identical!

  230. 230.

    Dave

    March 24, 2011 at 4:28 pm

    @Canadian Observer: Yes, but that also doesn’t account for the US military (those bad, bad people) being at the forefront in helping the victims of the Haiti earthquake, or the Thailand tsunami, or how the US Navy Mercy-class ships regularly engage in humanitarian missions around the world, working with dozens of NGOs to provide medical, food, and reconstruction assistance for countries world-wide.

    We aren’t angels. But neither are we the monsters you’d like to paint us to be.

  231. 231.

    Danny

    March 24, 2011 at 4:28 pm

    Unfortunately the progressive movement is plagued by a left wing prone to fraternicide. If those people focused their energies on their actual enemies they might be of some small use in this world and not just a waste of space.

    The problem i think is that there are a certain kind of people that have no principles, they just like sticking it to the man, whoever he happens to be at the moment, friend or foe. They don’t know what they want, nor how to get it. But they’re happy as long as they get to bitch and moan.

    Throw the bums out if you ask me. If Ralph Nader, Jane Hamsher, Dennis Kuchinic et al would just piss off to the fairy land of their confused imagination – where it’s always nov 2000 and they get to put GWB in office over and over – and leave the rest of us the fuck alone, the progressive movement would be a better place for it.

    Then the rest of us can continue actually being productive in our work towards single payer, good government, smart proggressive foreign policy, etc, without being distracted by their constant fuckups…

  232. 232.

    jaleh

    March 24, 2011 at 4:29 pm

    @Canadian Observer:

    Watch this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhhJnVlUUqQ&feature=player_embedded

  233. 233.

    Master of Karate and Friendship

    March 24, 2011 at 4:29 pm

    @OzoneR:

    In all seriousness: you should write to your Senator and Congressman and try to get them to halt combat pay for our troops in Iraq. Right now they are getting extra pay for being in combat, and clearly you don’t think that’s justified. Write to the president, too, while you’re at it.

  234. 234.

    Master of Karate and Friendship

    March 24, 2011 at 4:31 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    “How many mercenaries/combat contractors?”

    Well I’m sure none of our tax dollars pay those people! So it’s all good!

  235. 235.

    Master of Karate and Friendship

    March 24, 2011 at 4:32 pm

    @Danny:

    Unfortunately the progressive movement is plagued by a left wing prone to fraternicide.

    Which is so strange, given the open hand of friendship extended to us by the Obama administration.

  236. 236.

    Dave

    March 24, 2011 at 4:34 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship:

    Which is so strange, given the open hand of friendship extended to us by the Obama administration.

    Maybe you shouldn’t spit in it every time.

  237. 237.

    Master of Karate and Friendship

    March 24, 2011 at 4:36 pm

    @Dave:

    You mean like the time Obama told the left “gosh oh golly I want a public option in my health care bill, would you help me get one by pressuring your congressional representatives?” only to have us call him “retarded”?

    Wait, something about that isn’t quite how it actually happened. . .

  238. 238.

    Canadian Observer

    March 24, 2011 at 4:37 pm

    @jaleh

    *yawn*

    Remember that FALL OF SADDAM STATUE?

    A Psyops operation by the Pentagon and CIA. This is most likely no different.

  239. 239.

    Dave

    March 24, 2011 at 4:37 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship: Yeah…you left out the part where Congress steadfastly refused to consider passing anything with a public option.

  240. 240.

    Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal

    March 24, 2011 at 4:39 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship:

    the point is, you are crying, in theory, because obama didn’t make it all better overnight.

    the new legislation that might have been needed, would have taken 60 votes.

    the dept of justice damned sure, in lieu of new legislation you don’t think is needed, would have to defend challenges to the laws and orders you find objectionable. like with doma.

    the point is, you wanted the world to change all at once. i wish obama could do more, at times i think he could do more, but to say what he has done, doesn’t matter, because he didn’t do everything, or because he did things you don’t like, is unrealistic.

    you sound unduly spoiled and self-entitled.

    some times sucking less is a marked improvement.

  241. 241.

    Dave

    March 24, 2011 at 4:39 pm

    @Canadian Observer: Yes, that’s it!! The CIA somehow found thousands of North Africans, recreated Benghazi on a secret soundlot outside of Langley and faked the whole thing! Or are you asserting the CIA somehow is IN Benghazi and got all these people to do it? because you have to be right, because there is no way these people would actually be THANKFUL to the organization and countries that kept them from being killed.

    You are delusional.

  242. 242.

    Canadian Observer

    March 24, 2011 at 4:40 pm

    asserting the CIA somehow is IN Benghazi

    The CIA? Planning undercover operations in foreign countries?

    UNPOSSIBLE!!!!

  243. 243.

    Dave

    March 24, 2011 at 4:42 pm

    @Canadian Observer: And they somehow got thousands of people to do something they didn’t want to do? Are you actually making that claim?

    Nothing can be real unless it fits your worldview. How very George W. Bush of you.

  244. 244.

    Canadian Observer

    March 24, 2011 at 4:43 pm

    So a bunch of British, French, NATO, UN, and US flags, along with signs using pristine English grammar and spelling happened to be laying around in Benghazi?

  245. 245.

    Danny

    March 24, 2011 at 4:44 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship

    But there isn’t a cost in keeping it like this?

    You do understand that many of us understand and agree with that? You do understand that Obama agree’s with that and that’s why he spent a lot of political capital to have it closed. And then the senate voted 90-6 for stripping him of the funds needed to close it?

    Furthermore, the right wing waged a PR campaign scaring the shit out of middle american sixpack joe threatening that osama bin laden and his nephew would prison break their way into babbies bedroom. You know that don’t you? You also know that progressives are woefully impotent in penetrating the airwaves with an alternative narrative?

    One of the reasons for that last one is exactly that potential foot soldiers, like you, are to busy sticking their head up their ass to do anything useful.

    Say what you like about the bible thumping crazies and freepers but you got to give it to them, they are actually out there every minute of the day putting pressure and making life hard for the opposition, working their ass off.

    That is exactly what makes it politically impossible for progressive politicians to implement superior policy that could make life better for all of us.

    A focused, effective opposition and incompetent idiots on our team.

  246. 246.

    Canadian Observer

    March 24, 2011 at 4:44 pm

    Remember the Jessica Lynch story, Dave?

    Pat Tillman?

    The Pentagon and CIA LIE.

  247. 247.

    jaleh

    March 24, 2011 at 4:45 pm

    @Canadian Observer:

    I don’t agree with you. Have you seen any anti-American signs? This is a youtube frm Benghazi, it is not made up, as far as I can tell. When Sadam’s statue came down, you could see Americans in there taking the statue down, I don’t see any Americans in this youtube video. I don’t think you watched it.

  248. 248.

    Dave

    March 24, 2011 at 4:46 pm

    @Canadian Observer: yes, because the Libyan people are too stupid to learn, read or write English, right?

  249. 249.

    Omnes Omnibus

    March 24, 2011 at 4:47 pm

    @Dave: They used the sound stage from the “moon landings.”

  250. 250.

    Canadian Observer

    March 24, 2011 at 4:47 pm

    Here’s what the last “humanitarian” bombing of Serbia looked like:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsbwAoo32zg

  251. 251.

    les

    March 24, 2011 at 4:48 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship:

    There seem to be people here who think America is no longer in Iraq

    Citation needed. There seem to be people here who have a problem seeing anything but their own hobbyhorse. One note horn is tiresome. Excited one note horn moreso.

  252. 252.

    joe from Lowell

    March 24, 2011 at 4:49 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship:

    Right now they are getting extra pay for being in combat

    Nope. They are getting extra pay for being on a hazardous assignment.

    Look, it’s perfectly clear you don’t know anything about this subject. That’s fine.

    Any American in a uniform, anywhere, is just like any other American. What the remaining troops are doing in Iraq right now is no different than what they were doing four years ago. The troops in Iraq are combat troopps. Fine. Believe whatever you want.

    But you’re making yourself look like a jackass to anyone with even a marginally higher level of knowledge that your own.

  253. 253.

    joe from Lowell

    March 24, 2011 at 4:51 pm

    @Dave:

    Maybe you shouldn’t spit in it every time.

    My impersonation of a Professional Leftist:

    jab jab jab jab jab hook jab jab jab jab jab jab jab ja-

    TAKES STRAIGHT RIGHT TO NOSE

    ‘Hey! You hit me! Waaaahhhh!’

  254. 254.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    March 24, 2011 at 4:54 pm

    @joe from Lowell: You need to go lay down Joe. Yer making way too much out of this internet phenomenon.

  255. 255.

    les

    March 24, 2011 at 4:58 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship:

    Beyond condescension, straw men and non-sequitors (oh, and “Obama is a Monster!!”), do you have a fucking point? Will you rant until we’re all Quakers and the president is a pacifist? Are you an idiot or just a starry eyed idealist? Do you argue the nuances of “Just War” with Larison? When you observe repressive regimes injuring and killing their citizens, do you weep with frustrated rage because the attempt to prevent it might injure someone and thus can’t be undertaken?
    Do you have a fucking point?

  256. 256.

    Danny

    March 24, 2011 at 5:00 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship:

    Which is so strange, given the open hand of friendship extended to us by the Obama administration.

    In my view, Obama has been nothing but friendly and supportive of you, while you guys given him nothing but grief.

    But that’s not very important. What is important is this: Why are you in this game?

    Is it to get the policies you want, or do you also require recognition and a pat on the back? I already know the answer to that re: Hamsher and Nader – now I’m asking you.

  257. 257.

    Svensker

    March 24, 2011 at 5:07 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    Awwww, that’s so sweet.

    Ya got me, hook, line, and singer.

    You are a master baiter.

  258. 258.

    Under the Aurora Freeway

    March 24, 2011 at 5:08 pm

    Sounds like I missed a party today!

  259. 259.

    Anne Laurie

    March 24, 2011 at 5:08 pm

    @Tim, Interrupted:

    And…so how do we know that General Stuck and Soonergrunt and other, newer Obots, are not on the White House pay roll?

    “Why buy the cow, when you can get the milk for free?”

  260. 260.

    Fe E

    March 24, 2011 at 5:08 pm

    @Canadian Observer:

    Serbia had it coming. Ratko Mladic, Radovan Karadzic and Slobodan Milosevic should roast in a hell I don’t believe in for Vukovar, Srebrenica, Sarajevo, and then later Kosovo.

  261. 261.

    Svensker

    March 24, 2011 at 5:12 pm

    @Canadian Observer:

    laying around

    s/b “lying around”

    And while Canada is undoubtedly more progressive than the U.S., Canadian planes were dropping bombs in Libya yesterday, and Canadian troops are still in Afghanistan. And Stephen Harper is a neocon. So don’t be too proud. Hubris usually comes with a banana peel.

  262. 262.

    Fuck U6: A More Accurate Measure of the Total Amount of Duck-Fuckery in the Economy

    March 24, 2011 at 5:20 pm

    I wonder why Nick isn’t here to support the juicebagger refrain of “no enemies but the left?”

  263. 263.

    taylormattd

    March 24, 2011 at 5:20 pm

    @Ron: Oh but you see Ron, your refusal to call for Obama to be impeached and tried in Nuremberg is grounds for Joe Beese, Tim, and karateboy to call you an “Obot”.

  264. 264.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    March 24, 2011 at 5:22 pm

    @Fuck U6: A More Accurate Measure of the Total Amount of Duck-Fuckery in the Economy:

    I wonder why Nick isn’t here to support the juicebagger refrain of “no enemies but the left?”

    He is here. He just changed his name again. :)

  265. 265.

    Fe E

    March 24, 2011 at 5:23 pm

    @Fe E:

    And yes, I am aware that Vukovar was Croatia and not Bosnia or Kosovo, but it goes to te point that thugs in the former Yugoslavia with aid from and coordination with Sebia’s leadership pretty much decided they were going to do whatever atrocity it took to keep in power until somebody stopped them. After years of trying to dodge the whole issue, Clinton finally stepped in and put a stop to the nonsense.

    Which is something the Canadian peacekeepers failed to do.

  266. 266.

    les

    March 24, 2011 at 5:25 pm

    @Master of Karate and Friendship:

    No, they’re what people who want to discuss the real world accept as part of the equation. Not for fundamentalists, unfortunately.

  267. 267.

    Marc

    March 24, 2011 at 5:26 pm

    We have a plague of locusts who need banning. Period. TNH at Making Light had some very good insights into what makes for a good community. One essential thing is that the most imflammatory posts always get all of the attention. The only way to prevent the most extreme people from hijacking discussions (to be all about me me me) is to enforce standards. In particular, she favored removing the vowels from offending posts. You can still figure them out if you really want to, but they no longer dominate the discussions.

    Seriously, take “Canadian Observer”, “Karate Master”, yada yada yada and disenvowel them. If they stop acting like pricks, well they can comment again. Write a script up, and then people will have an incentive to behave themselves.

  268. 268.

    Fuck U6: A More Accurate Measure of the Total Amount of Duck-Fuckery in the Economy

    March 24, 2011 at 5:31 pm

    JSF: No, I change names, he changed socks.

  269. 269.

    Corner Stone

    March 24, 2011 at 5:32 pm

    @Svensker:

    You are a master baiter.

    At every opportunity.

  270. 270.

    Fuck U6: A More Accurate Measure of the Total Amount of Duck-Fuckery in the Economy

    March 24, 2011 at 5:37 pm

    Yes, the way to reach comity is to get rid of all of the people that we don’t like.

  271. 271.

    Fuck U6: A More Accurate Measure of the Total Amount of Duck-Fuckery in the Economy

    March 24, 2011 at 5:41 pm

    It worked so well for the Republicans, we should listen to the ex-Republicans and try it here!

  272. 272.

    Elizabelle

    March 24, 2011 at 5:42 pm

    @Marc:

    [TNH at Making Light] favored removing the vowels from offending posts. You can still figure them out if you really want to, but they no longer dominate the discussions.

    Seriously, take “Canadian Observer”, “Karate Master”, yada yada yada and disenvowel them.

    Disenvoweling?

    I love it!

    Also imposing a 2 hour delay on comments by trolls. Take away the immediacy of response, lose the troll.

    Delete the post if it adds NOTHING but flames to the discussion.

  273. 273.

    Corner Stone

    March 24, 2011 at 5:45 pm

    @Fuck U6: A More Accurate Measure of the Total Amount of Duck-Fuckery in the Economy:

    It worked so well for the Republicans, we should listen to the ex-Republicans and try it here!

    You have to admit, they do display a light touch in all their efforts. Graceful, if you will.

  274. 274.

    Fuck U6: A More Accurate Measure of the Total Amount of Duck-Fuckery in the Economy

    March 24, 2011 at 5:45 pm

    Elizabelle: It’s called cleek’s pie filter-it has a disemvowelling feature. Learn to use it or the down arrow and fuck off with the fascist crap.

  275. 275.

    soonergrunt

    March 24, 2011 at 5:45 pm

    @Anne Laurie: I damn sure ain’t getting paid enough. Maybe that’s why I’ve been squarely against this thing from the beginning, as opposed to the reason I’ve been articulating, which is that it’s none of our business.

  276. 276.

    Ruckus

    March 24, 2011 at 5:52 pm

    @Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal:
    some times sucking less is a marked improvement.

    Doesn’t make a catchy bumper sticker but is very true.

  277. 277.

    OzoneR

    March 24, 2011 at 5:52 pm

    @Fe E:

    Serbia had it coming. Ratko Mladic, Radovan Karadzic and Slobodan Milosevic should roast in a hell I don’t believe in for Vukovar, Srebrenica, Sarajevo, and then later Kosovo.

    you’re talking to someone who said the other day if we had left Kim-Il-Sung alone in 1950 and let him conquer the Korean Peninsula, he would have installed democracy and freedom to the Korean people.

    Another words, someone who clearly needs to be institutionalized…or a troll

  278. 278.

    celticdragonchick

    March 24, 2011 at 5:53 pm

    @Canadian Observer:

    American Exceptionalism is very similar to the German concept of the “Volk”, isn’t it? Scary.

    Yeah.

    Real similar…except for all that mucking about with mass exterminations, Einsatztruppen, collecting genetically valuable kids and murdering their parents, relocating ethnically desirable farmers onto colonies where the millions of murdered Jews and Ukranians used to live, not to mention grabbing hundreds of thousands of slave laborers and bringing them back to the chemical and munition factories in the Fatherland…

    Real similar.

  279. 279.

    celticdragonchick

    March 24, 2011 at 5:59 pm

    @Canadian Observer:

    You wouldn’t happen to be the young lady who posts at HuffPo who is supposedly getting a Master’s Degree or some such in history in Canada, would you?

    She really had a fetish for CIA plots and “false flag” stuff.

    If the CIA really was that competent, I would say we got our money’s worth.

  280. 280.

    Corner Stone

    March 24, 2011 at 6:07 pm

    @Ruckus:

    Doesn’t make a catchy bumper sticker but is very true.

    For a President I’m not too sold on that slogan.
    But if you were some sort of service contractor like an electrician, cabinets/carpentry or AC Repair? Shoot, that would get you rich!
    “Hire me! I show up more of the time and I answer your calls after 3 days instead of 5!”

    Now that’s a winner.

  281. 281.

    WaterGirl

    March 24, 2011 at 6:07 pm

    @Marc: I think that would work, and I think there were a couple of other suggestions on that thread that were good, too.

    I suspect John is proud of the fact that he runs an open blog and people are free to disagree without being banned. But it seems worse to let the obvious trolls ruin the community here. It’s not like it would be hard to decide who’s who, we can all name the folks who are only here to disrupt.

    i think there’s a way to ban/take out the vowels/etc the folks whose sole purpose here is to disrupt WITHOUT doing that to people just because they have a different point of view than others.

    John is a smart guy, and I’m sure he will come up with a good solution. He’s smart enough to know that the choice here is not binary.

  282. 282.

    Corner Stone

    March 24, 2011 at 6:08 pm

    Man I love Fafblog!

  283. 283.

    Corner Stone

    March 24, 2011 at 6:14 pm

    @WaterGirl:

    It’s not like it would be hard to decide who’s who, we can all name the folks who are only here to disrupt.

    Who? People you nominally disagree with?

  284. 284.

    WaterGirl

    March 24, 2011 at 6:32 pm

    @Corner Stone: Not at all! One thing I love about this place is that there are a whole lot of really smart, well-informed people here that I can learn from. Some of whom I agree with, some who i don’t agree with.

    It’s hard for me to believe that you didn’t really know what I was saying and couldn’t name the same folks I could name, but I will take you at your word.

    Let’s take you or eemom, for instance. It’s not uncommon for me to disagree with what you guys write, and you both take your shots. But you are clearly not here to disrupt intelligent (or snarky) conversation, and I still read your comments. I am not talking about you.

    I’m talking about the folks who pretty much leave any thread circling the drain when they leave. There’s nothing to learn on those threads, and they aren’t fun or funny or interesting. Like this thread, for instance.

    I skip over all the posts from people who are disrupting the thread, and I skip over all the responses from the people who are engaging with those people, and I don’t like the threads when there is not much to read once I have skipped over those.

    For instance, since I don’t read the responses to people who are here to disrupt, I don’t know whether Joe from Lowell is here intending to disrupt or if he just disrupts the threads because he engages with those who are, but either way I don’t read his posts.

  285. 285.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    March 24, 2011 at 6:37 pm

    Back in the early days, it seemed like Balloon Juice tripled over night. One day, it’s me, John and his mom. The next day, there was 9 of us. You can imagine what sort of turmoil having that huge influx of readers caused.

    It seemed like half of DougJ’s sockpuppets were arguing nonstop with the other half of DougJ’s sockpuppets. Of course, back then we didn’t know they were all DougJ. We just thought it was six random people with the same fetish for assplay and cheap convenience store wine.

    So, everything being a whole helluva lot more Democratic in the good ‘ol days, we haggled it out and finally came up with a system for voting out one Balloon Juicer per week. We called it “Banned Of The Week.” There was no criteria for who got voted off the blog. In fact, the first couple weeks, it was John. That went on until some genius (John, I think) figured out John was the only one that could make Open Threads.

    Eventually, it just became tradition to vote out of the most useful and contributing member of the community, as sort of a way to discourage this kind of behavior. Anyway, you can probably see where this is going. The only useful and contributing member was John’s mom. We eventually dropped the “Banned Of The Week” system but no one ever unbanned her and that is why you don’t see her here today.

    Sigh. Someday I’m going to publish a history of the blog.

  286. 286.

    eemom

    March 24, 2011 at 6:54 pm

    @WaterGirl:

    I promise to never write anything you disagree with again, ever, if you will only pleeeeez refrain from ever again including me in any comment, sentence, concept, or fragment of thought that also includes Stoned Asshole.

    kthxbai.

  287. 287.

    eemom

    March 24, 2011 at 6:56 pm

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    you and John know each other in real life, right?

    Just curious.

  288. 288.

    YellowJournalism

    March 24, 2011 at 7:10 pm

    We just thought it was six random people with the same fetish for assplay and cheap convenience store wine.

    So if they were real, then DougJ was their Circle K Caligula?

  289. 289.

    Marc

    March 24, 2011 at 7:11 pm

    I remember Usenet groups. There were people who claimed that their “freedom” was being compromised if they couldn’t post pages of ascii gibberish, and that any attempt to limit anything that they said was censorship. Usenet doesn’t exist in a meaningful way today, and there is a reason for that.

    John would nuke someones post if they put in 100 multiple one page ascii art messages, and the principle is the same for the folks posting flamebait. You can’t have discussions if you allow people to wander in with bullhorns and scream at you. If someone is going to drop 40 messages into a thread making it all about them…you either surrender the discussion to the most obsessed or you shut them down until they behave themselves.

  290. 290.

    WaterGirl

    March 24, 2011 at 7:11 pm

    @eemom: I’m not sure if it was your intent, but I laughed out loud at your comment. i will, of course, comply with your request.

  291. 291.

    Lolis

    March 24, 2011 at 7:25 pm

    @Svensker:

    Well said. Joe has been predictable and boring for some time now.

  292. 292.

    mclaren

    March 24, 2011 at 9:14 pm

    @rickstersherpa:

    There comes a point where the Obots lie so shamelessly that a reasonable person just has to stand up and shout “BULLSHIT!”

    Reference Obama, War, and the use of American Military power.

    1. Throughout the 2007-08 campaign President Obama said he would reemphasize the war in Afghanistan. Were people not listening? Perhaps he should have changed his mind, but he certainly did not go back on an anti-war promise as far as Aghanistan was concerned.

    Obama also billed himself as a pragmatist. John Cole (and plenty of other folks) have pointed out that we long since passed the point where further American presence in Afghanistan is pointless and useless and insanely counterproductive. People like me aren’t griping about Obama’s decision to continue the war in Afghanistan — what we’re ticked off about is Obama’s refusal to recognize what every other sensible sane person now knows: the war in Afghanistan is lost and has no further point. We can leave now in defeat, or we can leave in 5 or 10 or 15 years in worse defeat. That’s our choice. It’s Vietnam Part Deux. What part of “the war in Afghanistan was lost a long time ago and can never be won” do you Obots not understand?

    2. He has kept the promise on withdraw from Iraq to date.

    That’s a lie. Obama withdrew U.S. military and then dumped in a bunch more mercs, who happen to be ex-U.S.-military. There are now more American troops in Iraq than there were under Bush, Obama has just changed their name from “U.S. army” to “mercenaries.” That’s no change, and you know it, and when you tell these kinds of lies you make yourself look stupid as well as dishonest.

    3. On Libya he has gone in under an UN mandate, a Security Council authorization (which by the way creates a treaty obligation under the UN Charter to support the implementation of the resolution), and at least the lukewarm backing of the Arab League and Turkey. We have brought in two other allies who are swinging in with almost as much weight as we are.

    I’m not going to argue much about Libya because, who knows, Obama could show some spine for once and pull the fuck out and let France and whomever handle it. But John Cole is right on this one too. We should’ve responded to our allies with “Oh, you care so much about human rights in Libya? Great, you send in your armies with your troops and we’ll stand on the sidelines and criticize. How ya like them apples, boys?”

    4. Finally, the choice was finally between intervention and letting Gaddafi’s forces massacre the City of Benghazi with the 6th Fleet sitting off shore as a passive witness. Samantha Power probably made the case to both the President and the Secretary of State that under the circumstances where we had the obvious power to stop a massacre and didn’t, we would be held almost equally accountable.

    And so why didn’t Obama send U.S. troops into Darfur, where much worse massacres have been going on? And into coastal Africa where peasants are routinely slaughtered over blood diamonds? And into Saudi Arabia, where the royal family has been gunning down protesters like dogs? Why aren’t we sending U.S. troops into the Sudan with guns blazing to protect all those teenage girls from genital mutilation?

    Repeat after me: America is not the world’s policeman. America is not the world’s policeman. America is not the world’s policeman. America is not the world’s policeman. America is not the world’s policeman…

  293. 293.

    mclaren

    March 24, 2011 at 9:28 pm

    @celticdragonchick:

    “American Exceptionalism is very similar to the German concept of the “Volk”, isn’t it? Scary.”

    Yeah.

    Real similar…except for all that mucking about with mass exterminations

    Can you say Iroquois, celticdragonchick? How about Shoshone? How about Cayuse tribe? The Chehalis tribe? The Chinook tribe? The Colville and Okanagan tribes? The Coeur d’Alene tribe? The Cowlitz tribe? The Kalispel and Spokane Salish tribes? The Klallam tribe? The Kwalhioqua tribe? The Lummi and Samich tribes? The Makah tribe? The Nez Perce tribe? The Nooksack tribe? The Quileute, Hoh and Chemakum tribes? The Quinault tribe? The Salish tribe? The Umatilla tribe? The Walla Walla and Palouse tribes? The Wasco and Wishram tribes? The Yakima tribe?

    All basically wiped out, annihilated, decimated, slaughtered nearly to the last man.

    Einsatztruppen

    Can you say “U.S. Cavalry,” celticdragonchick? Raping and murdering their way across the Great Plains?

    collecting genetically valuable kids and murdering their parents

    Yeah, we Americans did that too. Indian kids whose parents our brave cavalry troopers had slaughtered by shooting their moms in the back got taken in by the schools and taught our wonderful religion and our marvelous language so they could become useful productive citizens who would do spiffy things like…cleaning out stables for the white folks.

    relocating ethnically desirable farmers onto colonies where the millions of murdered Jews and Ukranians native American Indians used to live

    Yep, we Americans did that too.

    not to mention grabbing hundreds of thousands of slave laborers and bringing them back to the chemical and munition factories tobacco plantations in the Fatherland…

    So I guess all those stories about millions of black slaves in the deep south was just an ugly rumor, huh, celticdragonchick?

    Girl, who taught you history?

    I recommend Howard Zinn’s A People’s History of the United States for starters.

  294. 294.

    celticdragonchick

    March 24, 2011 at 11:17 pm

    @mclaren:

    Can you come up with something in modern history?

    Like…in the last 100 years?

    By your standards, I can say England today is just as culpable for the Irish potato famine and the mass murders at Culloden as the original inhabitants at the time were.

    The German war crimes on the Eastern front that Canadian Observer seemed to reference happened within living memory, and she was comparing those war crimes to American policies at this very moment.

    All the stuff you dig up in American history happened well over one hundred years ago, in case you hadn’t noticed. (and before the modern notion of American Exceptionalism entered our political landscape)

    By the by, American history is my minor. Nice try, though.

  295. 295.

    Danny

    March 24, 2011 at 11:42 pm

    @mclaren:

    It’s cool, you’re entitled to your opinions.

    You’re absolutely correct that the indians of north and south america were to a large extent exterminated, and I personally agree with your sentiment that what the colonial powers, including the US, did was not much different in many ways to what Hitler did. Maybe it was a bigger crime in a sense, since there were many ethnicities actually wiped out.

    But you must understand – which I think you do – that behaving as if that has great bearing on the issues of the day makes you fringe.

    When you’re implying that there is a continuity to the concept of american exceptionalism in the sense that the US was a nazi state at wounded knee, and is therefore a nazi state at Tripoli today, that makes you fringe.

    You’re free to stay on the fringe and I respect your opinions.

    But I feel a bit deceived when people like you come here and almost have me fooled that you’re some kind of median Obama voters and that your disillusionment with him should matter to me or most other people.

    I am just amazed there has ever been a candidate you felt like you could support. I don’t remember Dennis Kuchinic out there railing against our nazi troops. I don’t even think I can remember Hamsher writing about that…

  296. 296.

    Elizabelle

    March 24, 2011 at 11:58 pm

    @Fuck U6: A More Accurate Measure of the Total Amount of Duck-Fuckery in the Economy:

    I am hardly a fascist.

    And I don’t enjoy seeing someone leave a turd on my dining room table and tell me it’s dinner.

  297. 297.

    Paul in KY

    March 25, 2011 at 9:42 am

    @celticdragonchick: Cool! I hope you have a great time. How bad is the kick on that thing? I guess it matters how much powder you put in it.

  298. 298.

    Paul in KY

    March 25, 2011 at 9:46 am

    @joeyess: That’s why I come here! I used to post at Steve ‘Fuck the Fucking Yankees’ Gilliard’s (RIP) website & this is fairly tame to some of the flame wars we engaged in back then.

    Oh, the good ole days…

  299. 299.

    celticdragonchick

    March 25, 2011 at 10:23 am

    @Paul in KY:

    I haven’t actually live fired with solid shot yet(just powder and paper) I will be proofing the barrel next month. It is definitely a fun to shoot off, though.

  300. 300.

    celticdragonchick

    March 25, 2011 at 10:42 am

    @Danny:

    The US has never been a Nazi state, and the promiscuous use of “Nazi” undermines the meaning of that particular political ideology.

    Nazism is a far right wing brand of totalitarianism predicated upon subordinating every facet of public and private life to supporting the State. Additionally, the State promotes a brand of racial purity necessary for civic hygiene…the volksgemeinschaft…wherein every other brand of ethnicity or religion is discarded as useless to the State. There is more…but that is much of the basic premise.

    The United States has mounted objectionable and even overtly evil racial policies in the past, including ethnic cleansing of Native Americans (there is no instance I am aware of where actual genocide was a state policy, but forcing native Americans off of their land most certainly was. There were politicians at the time of The Trail of Tears who bitterly objected to this policy, by the way) and, of course, slavery. Sadly, none of this was particularly rare or unusual in the world of the 19th Century.

    However, the policies of Nazi Germany contrasted sharply with the attitudes of the Liberal Order of Europe and that of the developing world. Slavery was near extinction, and democracy had been ascendant for the initial 2 decades of the 20th Century in Europe(yeah yeah I am really over simplifying this, and I know democracy failed over most of Europe during the 20’s and 30’s).

    The kind of corporatist totalitarian state that was seen in Italy and Germany was something new and aberrant, and the move towards racial murder was certainly retrograde to the progress that had been taken for granted by liberals earlier. (Liberals in the European sense)

  301. 301.

    Danny

    March 25, 2011 at 11:39 am

    @celticdragonchick:

    Hey, I was sloppy in my choice of words. It was not my intent to give the impression of thinking that the US has ever been a “nazi” state or particularly similar to one at any point in history.

    I was talking narrowly about the end result of colonization of the americas (which indeed killed a shitload of people, and made many indian tribes extinct). I was not in agreement about any other historical similarities.

  302. 302.

    JWL

    March 26, 2011 at 12:15 am

    Cole: You criticize Obama all the time. Yet when commentators slam him specifically, you go ape-shit.

    Fair enough, it’s your blog.

    But I’ll take you up on your invitation to bow out.

    I criticize Obama, too.

  303. 303.

    Elie

    March 26, 2011 at 1:40 pm

    You know, I have stayed away in recent months. Work was horrible — indeed I quit. The environment there was toxic and negative and I just hated to come here and read toxic stuff over and over…

    I lurk more now, comment only infrequently and avoid the posts where people are just going nuts and emptying their venom sacks. I am for good, contentious discussion and sometimes that has an edge. What I just see though is anger and hostility for its own sake. Brings me down lower than I am already and most of the time, its nothing that I can do anything about.

    Now that its spring, will spend more time in my garden and lick my wounds from my wars with corporate America from a happier spot. I will still lurk and read here from time to time and comment on those occasions when I feel there is something truly to say — from my heart and or from a place that helps…

    I will also say this: some people have a lot of time on their hands and like to spend it in very harsh ways…resentment and entitlement are killing our national community. Why not this one too?

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