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You are here: Home / Civil Rights / Racial Justice / Post-racial America / One more Bob Herbert post

One more Bob Herbert post

by DougJ|  March 26, 201112:15 pm| 146 Comments

This post is in: Post-racial America, Our Failed Media Experiment

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I always thought it was strange how little attention Bob Herbert got as a columnist. The numbers back me up on this:

Take a look in LexisNexis and see how often various New York Times columnists have been mentioned (not syndicated) in other papers this year. Thomas Friedman gets more than 3,000 mentions, and David Brooks gets 2,650. Maureen Dowd gets 1,615; Paul Krugman, 1,179; Nicholas Kristof, 805. Bob Herbert gets 533. Web sites that shape national news coverage rarely link to him. ABC’s The Note, one of the most insidery of Washington publications, has in the past few years referred to Paul Krugman 146 times, David Brooks 129 times, and Maureen Dowd 84 times. Bob Herbert? Twice

I think the reason is that a liberal, black columnist is a little too dog-bites-man for today’s media world. If Herbert had railed about school uniforms or compared Michelle Obama to Stokely Carmichael, Mark Halperin probalby would have linked to him more.

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Reader Interactions

146Comments

  1. 1.

    soonergrunt

    March 26, 2011 at 12:20 pm

    OT–Geraldine Ferraro died a short time ago. MSNBC has a banner on their front, but no link to details at this time.

    Also, I agree with you 100%. I loved Bob Herbert’s column simply because he laid it out there without embellishment and directly made his case without insulting or gratuitously attacking anyone.

  2. 2.

    Svensker

    March 26, 2011 at 12:22 pm

    A lot of NY liberals I know didn’t like him and I can only attribute that to unconscious racism. If you read Friedman and Krugman and Frank Rich religiously but dismissed Herbert… It’s not as though Herbert were an outlier.

  3. 3.

    piratedan

    March 26, 2011 at 12:24 pm

    well I always found him easy to read and understand, perhaps that was the problem.

  4. 4.

    Marty

    March 26, 2011 at 12:25 pm

    The real puzzle in that Lexis data is, Who is it that actually reads Tom Friedman? He really is unspeakable.

  5. 5.

    Maude

    March 26, 2011 at 12:29 pm

    Herbert believes in what he writes. That puts him head and shoulders above other pundits. He writes so well.
    He was tired of deadlines and I don’t blame him, plus the paywall.
    I look forward to reading his book.

  6. 6.

    asiangrrlMN

    March 26, 2011 at 12:31 pm

    I never got it, either. Herbert, K-Thug, and Rich. I read all three on a regular basis.

    @soonergrunt: I didn’t even know she was sick. May she be at peace.

  7. 7.

    salacious crumb

    March 26, 2011 at 12:32 pm

    it isnt surprising..Bob Herbert always bought up “inconvenient” topics, like race, poverty, unchecked capitalism…etc…definitely not pro-establishment pleasers…so he didnt get cited as much….wouldnt be surprised if NYT hired Breitbart in his place to increase their circulation..this country is going more right wing anyways….when an asshole like Friedman says suck on this and he gets feted by the nation, its no wonder Herbert wants out

  8. 8.

    Joey Maloney

    March 26, 2011 at 12:35 pm

    USA Today says Ferraro died after a long battle with blood cancer.

  9. 9.

    Davis X. Machina

    March 26, 2011 at 12:40 pm

    @Marty: People read Friedman because people read Friedman. He’s a brand name.

  10. 10.

    Clark

    March 26, 2011 at 12:42 pm

    I never read Herbert that much, but I find it dismaying that three worthless columnists get so many more mentions than Krugman.

  11. 11.

    piratedan

    March 26, 2011 at 12:46 pm

    @Davis X. Machina: so is shinola….a brand name, that is, doesn’t mean its any good mind you

  12. 12.

    JCT

    March 26, 2011 at 12:49 pm

    This is an enormous loss — his work on the travesty arrests in Texas a few years ago were spectacular and he has always been a persistent voice for those who have been rendered speechless in this nonsensical political climate.

    Heaven knows who will replace him — I don’t even want to speculate.

    @piratedan:

    Hey — looks like I’m joining you in AZ, about to sign on at the U of A.

  13. 13.

    Punchy

    March 26, 2011 at 12:52 pm

    He’s like The Anti-Sullivan.

  14. 14.

    Davis X. Machina

    March 26, 2011 at 12:54 pm

    @piratedan: Don’t knock the power of brand names. Why, this is America, where you can sell Velveeta™ as actual cheese — or Bush™ as an actual president — and make a fortune.

  15. 15.

    srv

    March 26, 2011 at 12:56 pm

    It’s why Juan Williams would be perfect for the job.

  16. 16.

    GregB

    March 26, 2011 at 12:58 pm

    Hey Herbert, suck on this.

    -Tommy the Mustache of Understanding Friedman

  17. 17.

    PurpleGirl

    March 26, 2011 at 12:59 pm

    @soonergrunt: Thank you for the heads up. She was my congresscritter after Jos Delaney left the House. I haven’t had the news on the TV, indeed I had the TV off this morning.

    ETA: Turned on NY1. She was 75 and died from cancer.

  18. 18.

    Brachiator

    March 26, 2011 at 1:00 pm

    @Svensker:

    A lot of NY liberals I know didn’t like him and I can only attribute that to unconscious racism.

    Unconscious?

  19. 19.

    piratedan

    March 26, 2011 at 1:02 pm

    @JCT: well Pima county is a small island of sanity in an otherwise insane state, the University has a pretty decent rep for most of its schools and I’m happy to say that my eldest is in attendance there.

    @Davis X. Machina: I know, I know but I guess I still have issues when so many folks seem to equate popularity and recognition with quality. I don’t wanna make this about Freidman, instead I’ll bemoan the loss of Herbert, he was a quality journalist with sensible opinions whom I will miss.

  20. 20.

    Davis X. Machina

    March 26, 2011 at 1:08 pm

    @piratedan: All he needed was to become a brand name, and I still don’t know why that anointing happens to some people and not others.

    And yeah, I’m looking at you, Juan Williams.

  21. 21.

    hilts

    March 26, 2011 at 1:12 pm

    Bob Herbert got royally screwed over in terms of the dearth of his appearances on cable news and citations from others.

    Here’s an interesting video of Herbert speaking to students at George Washington University
    http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/BobHer

  22. 22.

    Sad Iron

    March 26, 2011 at 1:13 pm

    Frankly, Herbert was the best and that made him unappealing. He wrote about real people and their very real problems, not abstract partisan nonsense. Sure, I guess Herbert was liberal, in the sense he cared about human beings. That is a sure sign of a liberal these days–conservatives hate our planet and the people who live on it, and liberals actually want people to eat, have clothes, and maybe go to school. Yep, then Herbert was as beautifully liberal as they get.

  23. 23.

    Omnes Omnibus

    March 26, 2011 at 1:13 pm

    @Davis X. Machina: He didn’t become a brand name because he didn’t stand out; he wasn’t flashy. He simply wrote well written, well researched columns that expressed a well thought out, liberal point of view and tended to leave his readers better informed than they previously were. You can see the problem, right? Who is going to put any effort into marketing that?

    ETA: I hate to sound as though I am writing an obit. He is still around and will be writing more elsewhere.

  24. 24.

    hilts

    March 26, 2011 at 1:21 pm

    @soonergrunt: @Joey Maloney:

    Ferraro demonstrated an incredible lack of class with her tasteless cheap shots at Obama during the primary campaign against Hillary.

    To refresh the memory of anyone who forgot her remarks:

    Ms. Ferraro, the former congresswoman and vice-presidential candidate who backs Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, told The Daily Breeze, a newspaper in Torrance, Calif. “If Obama was a white man, he would not be in this position. And if he was a woman of any color, he would not be in this position. He happens to be very lucky to be who he is. And the country is caught up in the concept.”

    In an interview on Tuesday night, Ms. Ferraro defended her comments and said she was furious with the Obama campaign, accusing it of twisting her words.“Every time that campaign is upset about something, they call it racist,” she said. “I will not be discriminated against because I’m white. If they think they’re going to shut up Geraldine Ferraro with that kind of stuff, they don’t know me.”

    h/t http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/12/us/politics/12campaign.html

  25. 25.

    The Ancient Randonneur (formerly known as The Grand Panjandrum)

    March 26, 2011 at 1:22 pm

    Herbert might have been a bit boring but he always had his facts straight. Cheer up! We live in a country where a filthy atavist like former Countrywide Mortgage CEO Angelo Mozillo won’t be prosecuted by the Feds (although he should be executed on national TV as far as I am concerned) but a guy who lied on a “liar loan” is now serving time in a federal prison.

    Fuck it. We really are doomed.

  26. 26.

    dj spellchecka

    March 26, 2011 at 1:24 pm

    the fact that he wrote about racial and social justice made him persona non-grata to the chattering class….

    ps
    nate silver wrote in his blog that he wouldn’t have moved to the times had he known about the paywall coming

  27. 27.

    Davis X. Machina

    March 26, 2011 at 1:30 pm

    @hilts: None of us are without flaws, and if you live long enough in politics, you’ll say really dumb things in public.

    People’s Exhibit B: George McGovern on unions.

  28. 28.

    Jim C.

    March 26, 2011 at 1:31 pm

    Hope nobody takes this the wrong way, but I think the reason Herbert didn’t get linked to was because his writing style was a more effective sleep pill than Unisom.

  29. 29.

    Stooleo

    March 26, 2011 at 1:32 pm

    OT, Here is another liberal that didn’t get many props. If you have never heard Mario Cuomo’s 1984 convention speech, you should really take a listen. Its worth the 7 minutes. He is so prescient it’s scary.

  30. 30.

    smintheus

    March 26, 2011 at 1:35 pm

    Herbert writes carefully and well, and dares to use actual evidence. He writes on important issues. He demands that his audience think. He has original thoughts and blazes his own trail. He’s not a jerk. He’s not a bomb thrower. He’s not a self-promoter. He’s not egotistical. He generates no trashy arguments he doesn’t believe in. He doesn’t suck up to the powerful or to well connected political or media insiders. He doesn’t worship at the altar of TeeVee.

    These are all reasons why Herbert gets far less attention than any number of ignorant, foolish, lazy, venal, and malign chatterers.

    One of the most interesting parts of Franks’ piece is the list of reasons he says were given by others for why they disregard Herbert. Nearly all their objections simply don’t describe Herbert at all, whereas these things do generally apply to the more celebrated columnists they say they do read. So they’re BS artists and are attracted to other bull-throwers.

  31. 31.

    PurpleGirl

    March 26, 2011 at 1:36 pm

    @Stooleo: It’s scary not so much because it’s prescient but because it’s still true. And we’re going backward; the problems haven’t changed and the moneyed class is still waging war against workers.

  32. 32.

    Scott

    March 26, 2011 at 1:40 pm

    @salacious crumb:

    wouldnt be surprised if NYT hired Breitbart in his place to increase their circulation

    They won’t hire Breitbart. They’ll hire Walter Williams.

  33. 33.

    hilts

    March 26, 2011 at 1:41 pm

    OT

    One more Bobo reference

    David Brooks gets in a plug for Edmund Burke in a discussion with Bill Maher
    http://www.mediaite.com/tv/bill-maher-obama-republicans-birthers-race

  34. 34.

    ruemara

    March 26, 2011 at 1:45 pm

    When a black person says it, it’s probably not worth listening to. It is, after all, about Black Stuff™. At least, that has been my experience in America. And yes, this includes large swaths of liberals, because everyone has little bits of prejudice that if you don’t acknowledge, you won’t ever deal with. Not everyone, not every time, but far too often to be just paranoia on my part.

    And, I’m sorry Ms. Ferraro passed due to cancer. I’m sorry she was in any pain at all. I still dislike her for her racist bullshit attacks on Obama during the campaign. Big, big reason why I couldn’t decide between Hil and BO. I know dog whistles when I hear them and I can’t vote for someone who I want to pop in the mouth or who have mouthpieces I want to punch. Rest in peace, lady.

  35. 35.

    Phil Perspective

    March 26, 2011 at 1:47 pm

    @Stooleo: It’s such a shame that his kid, just like Birch Bayh’s kid, is such an a hole.

  36. 36.

    hilts

    March 26, 2011 at 1:47 pm

    @Davis X. Machina:

    Shame on George McGovern. However, this one example doesn’t put McGovern in the same class as Ferraro.

    It wasn’t just Obama bashing when it came to Ferraro. She made numerous appearances on Fox News Channel in which she bashed liberals and progressives.

  37. 37.

    Tom Q

    March 26, 2011 at 1:50 pm

    @Jim C.: I’m kind of with you, here. I agreed with most of what Herbert wrote — and I hugely admired his Pulitzer-worthy investigative efforts in Tulia — but I found I rarely made it more than a paragraph or two into his columns before thinking “OK, got it; next”.

    It’s almost certainly true that his non-linkage results from his failure to speak up for Village priorities (cutting Social Security and gutting teachers’ unions). But he wrote fairly predictably (not that there’s much wrong with that when you’re correct) and in drab fashion, and other than liking having someone on my side, I didn’t see his huge value as a DC writer.

  38. 38.

    hilts

    March 26, 2011 at 1:50 pm

    Worthy successors to Bob Herbert that the NY Times should, but won’t, consider

    Amy Goodman, Laura Flanders, Errol Lewis, Joe Conason, Michael Tomasky

  39. 39.

    Stooleo

    March 26, 2011 at 1:51 pm

    @PurpleGirl:

    Agreed. Sometimes it feels as if the middle class is truly fucked.

  40. 40.

    Suck It Up!

    March 26, 2011 at 1:53 pm

    Maybe Herbert could have been as “famous” as Paul Krugman if other “prominent” liberals and blogs had linked to him on every single topic like they do with Krugman. Since I started following politics, the only way I’ve gotten to know certain people is because every 3rd comment or blog post all over the liberal blogosphere constantly linked to a select group of liberals. So stop putting all of this on outside forces.

    I honestly don’t care about Herbert one way or the other but I think I already know his new strategy if his intention is to become well known and make some money.

  41. 41.

    Will

    March 26, 2011 at 1:53 pm

    “I think the reason is that a liberal, black columnist is a little too dog-bites-man for today’s media world.”

    I think another reason is that Herbert, though his heart was always in the right place, tended to repeat himself. His best work was the sometime occasions when he would focus on some unnoticed outrage, and devote his column to exposing it for weeks on end. Herbert’s coverage of the Tulia drug bust scandal is probably the best example:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/29/opinion/kafka-in-tulia.html?src=pm

  42. 42.

    mattt

    March 26, 2011 at 1:58 pm

    He wasn’t boring – he was reasonable, rational and easygoing. Which count as faults these days, I guess.

    I think his parting screed should be read in part as a challenge to the Times to replace him with a vocal liberal advocate.

  43. 43.

    eastriver

    March 26, 2011 at 1:58 pm

    Herbert isn’t a very good writer. His politics and heart are in the right place, but he lacks creativity and subtlety in his writing. Krugman, a freaking economist, is a better writer.

    I’ve been reading Herbert for 20 years. Day in, day out. I honestly never understood why the Times stood with him.

  44. 44.

    Bob

    March 26, 2011 at 2:03 pm

    Fuck Sullivan!

    http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2011/03/bob-herbert-quits.html

  45. 45.

    Corner Stone

    March 26, 2011 at 2:04 pm

    @dj spellchecka:

    nate silver wrote in his blog that he wouldn’t have moved to the times had he known about the paywall coming

    He has a choice. What is Nate going to do with it?

  46. 46.

    BR

    March 26, 2011 at 2:09 pm

    Herbert and Kristof write about issues that affect peoples’ lives. Kristof is maybe a tad bit more mainstream friendly in that he writes about how people in other countries are being screwed over rather than on people in this country being screwed over…

  47. 47.

    Anya

    March 26, 2011 at 2:13 pm

    @hilts: Geraldine Ferraro, was her generation’s true feminist — they sought equality only for white women. To use a tired old cliché, she was a product of her time and she refused to move with the time.

    This is what she said about Bob Herbert:

    All the surrogates that they had out there, from the black journalists — you know, have you read Bob Herbert recently in the past six months? There wasn’t one column that had anything decent to say about Hillary.

    Interestingly, Herbert was not as hard on Hillary as Frank Rich or the despicable MoDo, but she chose Bob Herbert and other mainstream black journalists. It was a shameful end to a respectable politician.

  48. 48.

    hilts

    March 26, 2011 at 2:18 pm

    @eastriver:

    Please share with us some of your brilliant prose.

    @Corner Stone:

    He has a choice. What is Nate going to do with it?

    Nate Silver won’t do a goddamn fucking thing because he’s a ring kissing careerist.

    Shame on Mark Blumenthal as well for letting Pollster.com get gobbled up by that insufferable asshole Ariana Huffington.

  49. 49.

    salacious crumb

    March 26, 2011 at 2:18 pm

    @Anya: Anya, just out of curiosity (and I honestly dont know the answer), did Ferraro’s generation of feminists, such as Steinem, ever acknowledge this flaw in their movement. I am assuming the movement as a whole fought for the rights of a very narrow section…

  50. 50.

    Anya

    March 26, 2011 at 2:20 pm

    @hilts: I think Ezra would be a great replacement because he’s such a policy wonk. We need more focus on policy and Ezra deserves a better platform than his blog.

  51. 51.

    BR

    March 26, 2011 at 2:21 pm

    @Stooleo:

    OT, Here is another liberal that didn’t get many props. If you have never heard Mario Cuomo’s 1984 convention speech, you should really take a listen. Its worth the 7 minutes. He is so prescient it’s scary.

    That is a good speech. Nixon was the first step, and with Reagan things really came off the wagon. This was a good reminder that there were smart folks who knew it then too. Carter was the last one taking this country is a fundamentally different, and needed, direction. It’s too bad everyone is on the Reagan-is-great bandwagon these days. Thankfully history won’t look on him as a great president.

  52. 52.

    AAA Bonds

    March 26, 2011 at 2:25 pm

    Fox News’s “BREAKING” headline on Ferraro – and the link from the picture of her – links to a story on the Japanese nuclear plant. Great job!

  53. 53.

    Ija

    March 26, 2011 at 2:25 pm

    Meanwhile, Andrew Sullivan can go fuck himself:

    Just in case no one notices. Yes, he had a role as a liberal voice. But such a boring, familiar voice. There was something about his writing that simply forced you to stop reading, even when his motives were obviously honorable, his compassion deep, and his solutions sincere, if invariably trite.

    I particularly like that condescending “just in case no one notices”. Yes, Andrew, we know you want to subtly remind everyone that EVERYONE NOTICES WHEN YOU GOT A NEW JOB, but Herbert is just so forgettable no one notices he’s quitting.

    And I’ll take “a boring, familiar voice” to a hysterical one who seems to fall in and out of love with politicians with the drop of a hat and changes his mind every fucking few weeks.

    It’s the sign of that we are approaching the end of times when someone like Sullivan is celebrated and Herbert is not.

  54. 54.

    hilts

    March 26, 2011 at 2:27 pm

    @Anya:

    @salacious crumb:

    Geraldine Ferraro was one of Sean Hannity’s favorite Democrats. I can’t respect Democrats like Ferraro who appeared on Fox News to trash liberals and progressives. Ferraro and her ilk serve as window dressing for Fox News to claim that they are fair and balanced. Sure, Fox News is fair and balanced. They use Republican and Democratic pundits to put down liberals.

  55. 55.

    cathyx

    March 26, 2011 at 2:27 pm

    Does anyone know what his future plans are? Is he retiring or moving to another newspaper?

  56. 56.

    AAA Bonds

    March 26, 2011 at 2:27 pm

    @hilts:

    You don’t have to be able to do something better than someone who does it for a living in order to criticize them and have a point. Otherwise, I hope you never criticize politicians, professional athletes, etc.

    I happen to agree – I like Herbert, but only because his issues are near and dear to me. As a writer, he simply isn’t that engaging or exciting to a lot of people, especially younger left-wing readers.

  57. 57.

    salacious crumb

    March 26, 2011 at 2:29 pm

    @hilts: hey folks, she is dead, leave her alone, no one is perfect…lets remember her for her contributions.

  58. 58.

    hilts

    March 26, 2011 at 2:29 pm

    @Bob: @Ija:

    Put me down in the Andrew Sullivan can go fuck himself camp.

  59. 59.

    Ija

    March 26, 2011 at 2:33 pm

    @Anya:

    I don’t want his blog to then end up like Douthat’s blog where he uses it mostly to pick fights with people who criticize his columns. That just seem like a waste of a blog.

    Klein is too young, I think. I don’t want him to turn into an insufferable little prick like Chunky Bobo. Of course, Chunky Bobo was a prick before he had the NYT column, but his level of prick-ness increases substantially after he got the job. He was almost tolerable at The Atlantic.

  60. 60.

    BR

    March 26, 2011 at 2:33 pm

    @hilts:

    Put me down in the Andrew Sullivan can go fuck himself camp.

    I guess I’m glad I stopped reading him a few months ago and haven’t had any urge to go back…

  61. 61.

    AAA Bonds

    March 26, 2011 at 2:34 pm

    Fox News just updated to a new picture of Ferraro . . . and it and the headline still link to a story on the plant in Japan.

    What the hell is wrong with them?

  62. 62.

    Corner Stone

    March 26, 2011 at 2:35 pm

    @Anya:

    We need more focus on policy and Ezra deserves a better platform than his blog.

    Umm, if you mean Ezra Klein? He kind of has a perch right now.
    He works for WaPo, Newsweek and contributes to MSNBC.

  63. 63.

    Mark S.

    March 26, 2011 at 2:36 pm

    Can we haz troll-baiting Libya thread plz?

  64. 64.

    Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason

    March 26, 2011 at 2:36 pm

    @Bob:

    Sullivan on Herbert:

    …and his solutions sincere, if invariably trite.

    Wow, pot, kettle and all that.

  65. 65.

    Corner Stone

    March 26, 2011 at 2:36 pm

    @BR:

    I guess I’m glad I stopped reading him a few -months- years ago and haven’t had any urge to go back…

  66. 66.

    Corner Stone

    March 26, 2011 at 2:37 pm

    @Mark S.: God yes! Co-sign!

    ETA, and fuck Oh St! Fuck them up their stupid fucking asses!

  67. 67.

    hilts

    March 26, 2011 at 2:37 pm

    @AAA Bonds:

    I’m in a pissed off mood. Bob Herbert produced a great body of work and never got the recognition he deserved. I’m just not feeling charitable towards people who want to take this opportunity to denigrate his writing ability.

  68. 68.

    Anya

    March 26, 2011 at 2:38 pm

    @salacious crumb: The women’s movement was led by white middle- class women. Racialized women are more economically disadvantaged than white women because of racism which meant they were also more oppressed. They faced an intersecting systems of oppression and the white feminists did not represent their issues fully. I don’t think Steinam acknowledges this. Thirdwave feminism was formed to challenge the universality of female identity.

  69. 69.

    Ija

    March 26, 2011 at 2:38 pm

    @cathyx:

    The lack of concrete future plans mentioned in the article make me think that he is being pushed out. Probably for someone more “exciting”. Golly, I can’t wait. I’m thinking a black conservative. The first column will be on how accusation of racism is more damaging than racism itself. How “exciting”.

  70. 70.

    hilts

    March 26, 2011 at 2:41 pm

    @salacious crumb:

    Let’s remember Sean Hannity and Bill O’Reilly salivating over Geraldine Ferraro when she attacked liberals during her appearances on Fox News Channel.

  71. 71.

    AAA Bonds

    March 26, 2011 at 2:41 pm

    Those references to Herbert make perfect sense to me, and it’s not because he’s a little dull as a writer (although he is, in my opinion).

    It’s because he often wrote column after column on the same subject over a month or more. Sometimes this worked, sometimes it didn’t, but it definitely reduces the number of references he got.

    Friedman and Dowd, to give two examples, often write on two or more topics PER COLUMN, and since they are worried more about getting people talking about what they say than they are with writing anything substantive, they’re more likely to “spark conversation” (about nothing at all).

    Krugman, I think, strikes a happy medium even when I don’t agree with him, writing about important and pressing topics repeatedly, but with a provocative and novel approach for each piece. Still, for getting response, that can’t beat Friedman, Brooks, and Dowd in their buck-shot methods. They can write on everything at once, because they rarely have any depth of knowledge on the topic, and no one expects it.

  72. 72.

    PurpleGirl

    March 26, 2011 at 2:41 pm

    She was and remained pro-choice. She did pay a political price for it. Just saying. Take it anyway you want to.

  73. 73.

    Anya

    March 26, 2011 at 2:42 pm

    @Corner Stone: Who reads Newsweek? I think you will agree that a column at the New York Times is more prestigious than a blog at the Washington Post.

  74. 74.

    Ija

    March 26, 2011 at 2:42 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    Yeah, but “Op-ed columnist for the New York Times” still carries a certain cache that being a blogger for Washington Post does not. At least for the “right” people. Right now his tv appearances are mostly just for MSNBC. If he is an op-ed columnist for NYT, I’m sure man-of-the-people Charlie Rose will come calling more often. Not to mention the Sunday shows. At least for now, being an op-ed columnist for NYT opens a lot of doors.

  75. 75.

    Eric U.

    March 26, 2011 at 2:46 pm

    The thing about Herbert is that his columns always read like a well-written, middle of the road diary at the GOS. Nice to see in the NYT, but outdated by the time it hit print. The other columnists write columns that nobody in a sane state of mind would write, and thus they are new and novel.

  76. 76.

    AAA Bonds

    March 26, 2011 at 2:46 pm

    @hilts:

    I’ve always been consistent on Herbert. It’s not like he just passed away. Leaving a column at the Times doesn’t require a time of mourning, nor any change in how people talk about him.

  77. 77.

    cmorenc

    March 26, 2011 at 2:49 pm

    Other sources cite Friedman far more often than Herbert because of the need to stay well-calibrated with whatever the current measure of a “Friedman Unit” is, whereas by contrast there is no such quantity as the “Herbert Unit”. Herbert should have seen to it to invent one, and he would have been cited more often.

  78. 78.

    hilts

    March 26, 2011 at 2:49 pm

    @Anya:

    To quote the Rolling Stones, I have No Expectations, when it comes to a replacement for Bob Herbert.

    The one thing I still love about the NY Times is that they are the only US newspaper that still publishes a separate, standalone Book Review section on Sunday. If anyone out there knows of another US or English language newspaper that does this, I’d love to hear about it.

  79. 79.

    AAA Bonds

    March 26, 2011 at 2:49 pm

    @Anya:

    Third-wave feminism is a lot of things, some of them good, some of them bad. Certainly, the parts of it moving away from the white-dominated model are good; the parts of it moving away from militancy and demands for economic equality, not so much.

    Certainly the part of it that has embraced evolutionary psychology is reprehensible, and anti-feminist.

  80. 80.

    Alex S.

    March 26, 2011 at 2:50 pm

    @Ija:

    Hmm..Michael Steele is ‘exciting’.

  81. 81.

    hilts

    March 26, 2011 at 2:51 pm

    @AAA Bonds:

    I look forward to reading Bob Herbert wherever he lands.

    When did you go from a AA rating to a AAA rating?

  82. 82.

    Corner Stone

    March 26, 2011 at 2:51 pm

    @Anya:,Ija I agree with both of you, the NYT has more oomph.
    IMO going from some circumspect location to the NYT is the balls, but having a spot at WaPo and Newsweek is nothing to be cheesed about.

  83. 83.

    AAA Bonds

    March 26, 2011 at 2:53 pm

    @hilts:

    When they gave me my license back.

  84. 84.

    driftglass

    March 26, 2011 at 2:53 pm

    Herbert also famously went directly after NYT colleague David Fucking Brooks over his whitewash of Reagan’s record of using racist appeals to harvest white votes. And you don’t get invited up to the Main House for canapes by getting all militant and uppity and calling out Republican dog-whistle apologists using plain language.

  85. 85.

    hilts

    March 26, 2011 at 2:55 pm

    @Ija:

    man-of-the-people Charlie Rose

    Rose has mastered the art of obsequious, boot-licking, and ring-kissing interviews. He simply has no equal in this domain.

  86. 86.

    Corner Stone

    March 26, 2011 at 2:57 pm

    @AAA Bonds:

    Those references to Herbert make perfect sense to me, and it’s not because he’s a little dull as a writer (although he is, in my opinion).

    And he was dead dull on TV, which never helped.

    OT, I haven’t watched any MSNBC prime time since KO left. Is Eugene Robinson on their air any longer?

  87. 87.

    Corner Stone

    March 26, 2011 at 2:59 pm

    @driftglass:

    Herbert also famously went directly after NYT colleague David Fucking Brooks over his whitewash of Reagan’s record of using racist appeals to harvest white votes. And you don’t get invited up to the Main House for canapes by getting all militant and uppity and calling out Republican dog-whistle apologists using plain language.

    A lesson TNC has learned well, it seems.

  88. 88.

    hilts

    March 26, 2011 at 2:59 pm

    @driftglass:

    Driftglass,

    Loved your eulogy to David Broder. It was the best and most fitting tribute to him that I read in the blogosphere.

  89. 89.

    James E Powell

    March 26, 2011 at 3:01 pm

    @Davis X. Machina:

    All he needed was to become a brand name, and I still don’t know why that anointing happens to some people and not others.

    Building a brand requires marketing and marketing requires money and effort. Some writers, and maybe Herbert is one of them, do not work at becoming a brand. I assume they have their reasons.

    Then again, maybe it’s all about the mustache.

  90. 90.

    Ija

    March 26, 2011 at 3:02 pm

    The article DougJ cited basically blames Herbert for not knowing his audience:

    If he’d overcome his indifference to “chatter” and elite opinion and instead try to attract and coopt it—in other words, think about who his audience is and what he wants it to do—he could be one of the most powerful liberal voices in the country.

    But if he does “overcome his indifference to chatter and elite opinion”, he wouldn’t be Bob Herbert anymore. He’d just be the black version of Friedman or something. What’s the point?

  91. 91.

    hilts

    March 26, 2011 at 3:05 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    Is Eugene Robinson on their air any longer? Yes

    He was dead dull on TV, which never helped.

    The only times I ever saw Bob Herbert on MSNBC were when he appeared on Hardball. I give Herbert credit for managing to utter a syllable because that fucking asshole Chris Matthews never wants to shut the hell up and allow anyone else to speak.

  92. 92.

    eemom

    March 26, 2011 at 3:07 pm

    thanks to other folks who have pointed out how Ferraro trashed whatever legacy she had with her obnoxious behavior during the ’08 primaries. Believe it or not this was one instance where I was kind of hesitant about speaking ill of the dead.

    As for Bob Herbert, he’s been a tell it like it is, non-concern troll, and just by virtue of that alone incomparably superior to any of the rest of them on the NYT op ed page other than Krugman. I think his writing was fine — but more importantly, much as I love excellent writing, in this noxious emmessemm environment it just doesn’t matter as much as the increasingly rare quality of just fucking telling the truth.

  93. 93.

    piratedan

    March 26, 2011 at 3:07 pm

    @Corner Stone: TRMS is still worth watching and she still tabs Gene infrequently to weigh in on the idiocy taking place in the punditry (he was on last Friday akshully), and she is currently locking horns with the Dept of the Interior for the issuing of additional deep water drilling licenses when their engineering forensics report shows that blow out preventers have a failure rate of like 45% despite the assurances that additional training makes the likelihood of additional accidents less likely, per the Govmn’t position.

  94. 94.

    Ija

    March 26, 2011 at 3:07 pm

    @hilts:

    Now that’s a guy who is BORING. Watching his interviews is like watching paint dry. Yet he probably is a lot more “influential” than Bob Herbert.

  95. 95.

    licensed to kill time

    March 26, 2011 at 3:08 pm

    @hilts: I have gotten the NYT Books Update w/Sunday Review emailed to me for years. I wonder if that will continue after the paywall goes up? I guess it might count as one of the free 20 articles.

  96. 96.

    salacious crumb

    March 26, 2011 at 3:10 pm

    @hilts: look there will be plenty of time revisit the shortcomings of Ms. Ferraro. All im saying is today isnt the day.

  97. 97.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    March 26, 2011 at 3:15 pm

    @Anya: This is so very true. I lost all respect for Ferraro over her obnoxious behavior that repeatedly smacked of racism during the 2008 primary season.

  98. 98.

    eemom

    March 26, 2011 at 3:16 pm

    ffs, some people just don’t do well in a teevee medium. That’s got nothing to do with Herbert’s quality as a columnist. Frank Rich is also kind of a dullard in his occasional teevee appearances, as celebrated (undeservedly imo) as he’s been as a columnist.

    Context, people. Nuance. Factual distinctions. It’s what keeps us all from being blithering idiots.

  99. 99.

    hilts

    March 26, 2011 at 3:16 pm

    @salacious crumb:

    I beg to differ, but I appreciate your catchy screen name.

  100. 100.

    Davis X. Machina

    March 26, 2011 at 3:18 pm

    @hilts: Yes he does. James Lipton. But Lipton may have a few shreds of self-awareness left.

  101. 101.

    salacious crumb

    March 26, 2011 at 3:20 pm

    @hilts: im the real Salacious Crumb….That Star Wars movie totally faked my death…I managed to get out of Jabba’s sail barge before the explosion.

  102. 102.

    hilts

    March 26, 2011 at 3:20 pm

    @eemom:

    Cable news doesn’t allow guests enough airtime to express a coherent thought.

  103. 103.

    eemom

    March 26, 2011 at 3:22 pm

    @hilts:

    Good point. That’s probly why people who don’t have any are so good at it.

  104. 104.

    hilts

    March 26, 2011 at 3:23 pm

    @Ija: @Davis X. Machina:

    Charlie Rose by Samuel Beckett
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFE2CCfAP1o

  105. 105.

    Anya

    March 26, 2011 at 3:23 pm

    @driftglass: Paul Krugman also challenged David Brooks over Reagan’s racism. I think the feud was covered widely.

  106. 106.

    Corner Stone

    March 26, 2011 at 3:23 pm

    @piratedan: I’m not boycotting MSNBC or anything. It just seems like I’d tune in to KO once in a while and end up watching the TRMS lead in, and see what she had to say.
    Now, I can’t stand O’Donnell. So I may not even turn the TV on when I get home. Or just put it on HGTV which, to me, is like how Cosmopolitan magazine fucks with women’s heads.
    Cosmo tells them how to make themselves better, prettier, sexually, etc and it’s all bullshit based around an ad campaign.
    HGTV tells homeowners and prospective homeowners all these “little” things they could be doing to improve equity. Of course, it’s all based on cocaine fueled consumerism as well.

  107. 107.

    Alison

    March 26, 2011 at 3:24 pm

    @hilts: Re: Matthews – for reals, which makes the fact that his final segment is called “Let Me Finish” so absurdly hilarious that I’ve wondered if it’s meant to be a jab at himself…but then, I don’t know that he’s smart enough to get it…

  108. 108.

    Corner Stone

    March 26, 2011 at 3:29 pm

    My music player seems to be stuck on SOAD. This could end up very poorly for all of us.

  109. 109.

    hilts

    March 26, 2011 at 3:29 pm

    @eemom:

    24/7 cable news is dumbing this fucking country down to death. NPR and PBS, in spite of their shortcomings, at least allow people more than a minute and 30 seconds to make their points. And Thank God for C-SPAN.

  110. 110.

    hilts

    March 26, 2011 at 3:34 pm

    @Alison:

    Chris Matthews is a performance artist. The only times Hardball is enjoyable to watch is when Matthews has a guest who isn’t providing him with the answer he wants to hear. It’s fun to watch Matthews get increasingly frustrated

  111. 111.

    scav

    March 26, 2011 at 3:35 pm

    Speaking of crickets, you’d think the streets of London were deserted today from the front page of the NYT and ChiTrib.

  112. 112.

    Redshift

    March 26, 2011 at 3:36 pm

    @dj spellchecka:

    nate silver wrote in his blog that he wouldn’t have moved to the times had he known about the paywall coming

    No he didn’t. He wrote:

    At the same time, given that FiveThirtyEight is my current business and that my readers are used to reading as much of its content as they want, I would not have moved it to The New York Times had it been planning on a more rigid “paywall” structure, like that employed by The Financial Times or The Wall Street Journal.

    The whole post makes it clear that while he has mixed feelings about their particular paywall and wants his readers to be able to read everything, he also considers the Times an indispensable resource that needs a business model that will pay for the work that it does.

  113. 113.

    Alison

    March 26, 2011 at 3:36 pm

    @hilts: It can be fun except that I start worrying his spittle is going to magically come through my TV screen.

  114. 114.

    Greg Thrasher

    March 26, 2011 at 3:37 pm

    What a sad day for Black activists like me..I only read the NYT because of Bob..I have always admired Black men in the cesspool of patronizing white liberals..WTF

  115. 115.

    Barb (formerly Gex)

    March 26, 2011 at 3:41 pm

    @Ija: Nothing like a pundit who admits that he doesn’t really care about the content of an argument if he finds the language boring. Style, tone, attitude, optics. The only things that matter. Not content or ideas. Hells, no.

  116. 116.

    Corner Stone

    March 26, 2011 at 3:43 pm

    @scav:

    Speaking of crickets, you’d think the streets of London were deserted today from the front page of the NYT and ChiTrib.

    They aren’t?

  117. 117.

    kdaug

    March 26, 2011 at 3:43 pm

    @Alison:

    his final segment is called “Let Me Finish”

    Wasn’t going to point that out, but yeah – isn’t Larry O’D’s show called “Last Word” or someshit? Is this a pissing match between Chris and Larry?

  118. 118.

    Corner Stone

    March 26, 2011 at 3:44 pm

    Truuust in myyyy self righteous suicide, Iii cry, when angels deserve to diiiieeee.

  119. 119.

    scav

    March 26, 2011 at 3:45 pm

    @Corner Stone: Don’t worry, they’ve called in Torchwood to investigate.

  120. 120.

    Corner Stone

    March 26, 2011 at 3:46 pm

    @kdaug:

    Is this a pissing match between Chris and Larry?

    I would self finance an episode of MTV’s Celebrity DeathMatch with these two.
    Maybe with zombie Phil Donahue as referee.

  121. 121.

    Corner Stone

    March 26, 2011 at 3:47 pm

    @scav:

    they’ve called in Torchwood to investigate.

    I keep trying that damn show. I gather it’s not one you can dip in and out of.

  122. 122.

    scav

    March 26, 2011 at 3:49 pm

    @Corner Stone: actually, you can. I almost like the premise more than some of the implementation.

    ETA: ‘Sides, the Doctor has the better monsters. Vashtu nerada, Weeping Angels in Blink, the empty child . . .

  123. 123.

    piratedan

    March 26, 2011 at 3:53 pm

    @Corner Stone: it’s kinda like the x-files, smaller story arcs but there are some threads that run through various shows and if you come into it picking up a show here and there, some of those threads do cause you to mumble quietly to yourself as you go online and check the episode guide.

  124. 124.

    Corner Stone

    March 26, 2011 at 3:54 pm

    I don’t know who this Blonde Amazon Goddess is on HGTV right now but I totally want to have a thousand of her babies.
    jesu de cristo!

  125. 125.

    Alison

    March 26, 2011 at 3:55 pm

    @kdaug: Ah, but Lawrence always invites US to have “the last word” on his blog. I have not yet taken him up on that invitation because I’ve been way too busy with stuff like clipping my nails.

  126. 126.

    Brachiator

    March 26, 2011 at 3:58 pm

    @eemom:

    ffs, some people just don’t do well in a teevee medium. That’s got nothing to do with Herbert’s quality as a columnist. Frank Rich is also kind of a dullard in his occasional teevee appearances

    Very true of both TV and radio. I’ve seen situations where a person who was expert in his or her field was cut short, and never asked back to a program, because they could not speak well for TV. Here, a person who can excitedly say little more than “OMG!” comes across better than someone who speaks complete sentences in a monotone.

    All the pundit shows and various other programs have a rolodex of potential guests chosen because they can be glib at the drop of a hat, without regard to their actual knowledge of a subject. Guests who pundits are comfortable with often get a nod as well.

  127. 127.

    Corner Stone

    March 26, 2011 at 3:58 pm

    @piratedan:

    mumble quietly to yourself

    I’m not really good at the “quietly mumbling” part of my life.
    Now, I talk to myself all the time. But that’s mainly because I’m the smartest person I know, and I haven’t gone to the cops on myself to this point. So I guess I’m still ok with me knowing about a few things I did. Other things…not so much.

  128. 128.

    driftglass

    March 26, 2011 at 3:59 pm

    @hilts

    Many thanks

  129. 129.

    dr. bloor

    March 26, 2011 at 4:00 pm

    @Eric U.:

    The thing about Herbert is that his columns always read like a well-written, middle of the road diary at the GOS

    Yeah, Bob Herbert = middle of the road diarist at GOS.

    Epic, epic fail.

  130. 130.

    Menu

    March 26, 2011 at 4:07 pm

    I’m just dumbfounded to read some of these critiques. All I can say is that I appreciate Herbert and his ego free writing.

  131. 131.

    jazzgurl

    March 26, 2011 at 4:09 pm

    God, Andrew Sullivan and his arrogant little self thinks that Bob was a little too boring for him. Well Andy as much as I now swiftly scroll down your page, you have become boringly predictable..let’s see..um, gays,gays,gays, catholicism, my ‘husband’, the beagle, Palin and palin again,
    knee jerk,knee jerk, knee jerk then as they say ‘ to whittle down like boiling spinach’,beards, and of course the ‘any country’s ‘revolution’ minute by minute support blogger’…and yes, trying to convince yourself of the conservative of the moment!

  132. 132.

    Corner Stone

    March 26, 2011 at 4:16 pm

    Articles like this are why the NYT can go behind a wall and DIAF for all it matters:
    The fashion section?

  133. 133.

    eemom

    March 26, 2011 at 4:17 pm

    Is this a pissing match between Chris and Larry?

    much as I can’t stand Tweety, I gotta say I think he’d win that one. O’Donnell, imo, is just SO not ready for prime time. I thought he did ok when he was occasionally a guest, but he just doesn’t have the personality to be a host. He’s so STIFF. If you put a serial killer on thorazine and stuck him in front of a teevee camera, that’s what he’d look like.

  134. 134.

    chris

    March 26, 2011 at 4:19 pm

    @driftglass: Hate to go all fanboy on you…but love your work man!

  135. 135.

    Donald

    March 26, 2011 at 4:21 pm

    I have no respect for the “Herbert is boring” criticism. IMO, Dowd, Collins and Friedman are boring, in different ways. I start their columns and most of the time just skim through them in seconds because it’s clear they’re just going to be typing more of their usual crap. Friedman is only interesting as a window into the mind of a narcissistic liberal warmonger (though lately, to give him a tiny bit of credit, he’s become a skeptic about the war in Afghanistan.)

    Herbert was a decent man who wrote seriously about things that matter.

    Incidentally, the good news is that maybe his replacement is going to be Joe Nocera. Nocera said in his piece today (Saturday) called “In Prison for Taking a Liar Loan” that he’ll be moving to the Op Ed page next month. I’m too lazy to provide a link.

  136. 136.

    kdaug

    March 26, 2011 at 4:34 pm

    @scav:

    Weeping Angels in Blink

    Do not push my buttons, sir/madame. (But there will be a die-cast frakin’ badass model of a weeping angel in full-on “argh” mode available in August)

  137. 137.

    Ija

    March 26, 2011 at 4:54 pm

    @Barb (formerly Gex):

    It’s the debate society mentality. It’s not the content of your arguments that matter, it’s how brilliant you sound when you are spouting bullshit. Was Sullivan the product of Oxbridge education by any chance?

  138. 138.

    scav

    March 26, 2011 at 4:54 pm

    @kdaug: “And how am I gonna react when I see this? A great, big, threatening button. A great, big, threatening button which must not be pressed under any circumstances?”

    Protest

    Whatever that thing was in Midnight?

  139. 139.

    Triassic Sands

    March 26, 2011 at 6:13 pm

    For some reason Bob Herbert was never one of my favorite columnists, which is a little surprising because I would probably rather hang out with him than any other newspaper columnist at the Times or Post. I suppose that isn’t all that surprising with creeps like Friedman, Bobo, Douthat, Krauthammer, Will, etc. running around. I always liked and respected Herbert and his opinions. I wish him well and hope he prospers in whatever follows the Times.

    Somehow I suspect the Times will continue to choose replacements that do nothing to improve the stature of its opinion pages.

  140. 140.

    Menu

    March 26, 2011 at 6:16 pm

    Klein. Yglesias. Ugh. Anti-Herberts as far as I’m concerned. Herbert cared about what he wrote.

  141. 141.

    jazzgurl

    March 26, 2011 at 6:53 pm

    Yes indeedy, Sully was a Brit who went to Oxford…who supported the Tory Party in England. The Oxonians were a breed unto themselves whose intelligence made them feel superior to the rest of the populace.

  142. 142.

    Fifi

    March 26, 2011 at 7:54 pm

    Funny, that. There are only two columnists I read at the NY Times, Paul Krugman and Bob Herbert.

    Years ago, I consciously made my duty of never, ever reading or even clicking on Friedman, Modo, Douthat or Brooks’ pages. I don’t care what those putzes have to say and I don’t want to contribute to their page view stats.

    Now, I’m left with one decent columnist and, very occasionally, the random Kristof.

  143. 143.

    KevinHayden

    March 26, 2011 at 10:14 pm

    Friedman is an ultra-imperialist.
    https://balloon-juice.com/2010/02/18/suck-on-this-matt-taibbi/

    Sully supported the War on Iraq.

    So did Ezra, and he later confessed his rationale: some long-haired hippie types on his campus were protesting against the coming invasion, so he knee-jerked the other way. (Ezra, however, is good at deciphering policy, esp healthcare, but he’s certainly not writing anything flashier than Herbert has done.)

    And Yglesias seems pretty centrist except on social issues.

    If they want replacements from the blogosphere, Heather (Digby) Parton would be a great place to start. I think Dan Froomkin, David Neiwert, Greg Sargent, John Cole, and a few others would do excellent work.

    But when I read what Keller has to say with his false equivalency of Assange and O’Keefe
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/27/magazine/mag-27lede-t.html
    and I’m reminded that the leaders of NYT would shun any kind of truly populist voice like Jim Hightower or Thom Hartmann as they really couldn’t handle a sly, cultured humorous populist like Molly Ivins.

    Face it: all we’re gonna get is the New Village bratpackers replacing the Old Villagers. The urban, upper-middle class sensibilities must be preserved.

  144. 144.

    mclaren

    March 27, 2011 at 12:06 am

    Well, come on, you’re ignoring the elephant in the room. Bob Herbert is black.

    How many black people ever get any recognition for anything?

    America remains one of the most racist societies on earth. The only thing black people get recognition for in America is committing crimes and cheating on welfare. W.E.B. Dubois? Invisible. Paul Robeson? Didn’t exist. Martin Luther King? No movie has ever been made about him, and none ever will be. George Washington Carver? Utterly ignored, treated as though he didn’t exist. Frederick Douglass? Arguably America’s greatest orator, therefore erased from history and systematically ignored. Gordon Parks? One of the most astoundingly talented Americans who ever lived, a superb photographer as well as a world-class filmmaker…but he’s black, therefore he never existed.

    And the list goes on…

  145. 145.

    Corner Stone

    March 27, 2011 at 12:43 am

    GG praises Bob Herbert. Now what?

  146. 146.

    Suzan

    March 28, 2011 at 10:09 am

    Not unconscious racism at all it seems.

    Very conscious. Almost proud.

    If Herbert had railed about school uniforms or compared Michelle Obama to Stokely Carmichael, Mark Halperin probalby would have linked to him more.

    But, then, I would not have bothered to read him.

    And I adore his brand of journalism.

    Suzan

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