From the Bittman piece Anne Laurie highlighted below:
[…] But as hungry as I may get, we know I’ll eat well soon. […]Many poor people don’t have that option, and Beckmann and his co-organizers are calling for God to create a “circle of protection” around them. Some are fasting for a day, many for longer. […]
Clearly, any social movement that gets Marc Bittman to write about them in the New York Times is doing something right, but this strikes me as a typically useless liberal political gesture, just like most of the time-and-money sucking gestures that have occupied white middle-class suburban and urban liberals for the past few decades. While they were visualizing world peace and boycotting Wal-Mart, Republicans took over the House, and a bunch of crazy governors and stage legislatures began to systematically destroy unions and abortion rights.
Boycott and fast all you want, buy all the eco-friendly local organics you please, and John Boehner will still be Speaker of the House. These efforts are diversions and sideshows, and they’d be harmless if people recognized they were about nothing more than making you feel good.
If you want to help a hungry person, donate food to your local food bank and donate cash to your local Democrats. If you want to feel good, create a “circle of protection” via prayer. There’s nothing wrong with feeling good, but your good feelings are not going to win the class war that Bittman writes about so eloquently in his column.
Aaron Fown
I’m all for focussing on practical efforts that we can all make to really effect change, but making fun of praying and fasting people because they aren’t giving money to food banks and the Dems is kind of low. For one thing, you have no evidence that they aren’t. For another, it comes across as an utter lack of acceptance and understanding of other people’s spirituality. So much good activism has sprung from a spiritual foundation, after all. King and Ghandi come to mind.
“You cannot live on hope alone, but without it, life is not worth living.” Harvey Milk. Do the good work, but don’t attack the hope.
kdaug
I forget – how many essential vitamins and nutrients in prayer? All of ’em, or just some? Never can keep track.
JPL
whoops… i used the s word
JPL
Agreed except that I will add Bittman has a following. His column does highlight the changing nature of our government.
You still hear community organizers being denigrated and volunteers painted as socia..lists. His fasting might not help but his forum will.
Cermet
To pile on, looks like human induced global warming is getting very pronounced – the artic ice layer was measured and is at its thinness then has been ever recorded before – this is during the “max” size the ice gets during the winter (and it is far smaller than ever measured before, too.) See http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110324104143.htm
So, the thugs are robbing us and taking away all our benifits that make the middle class possible, the banks and wall street are stealing us blind, peak oil will completely finish off the middle class and on top of all this, AGW will cause far more wars, long lasting food shortages, terrible floods (when it does rain) and far larger deserts and droughts in areas that rarely have them that will last far longer and some areas (US Southwest) that could last tens of years at a time.
So glad everyone didn’t vote because Obama wasn’t doing enough … .
rea
Religion is the opiate of the masses.
cleek
big ol double-sized ‘yup’ to you, MrMix.
are they going to have a drum circle? some giant puppets? cause those things really make a difference.
Comrade Javamanphil
And please run for your local school board, town council, etc… You can make a far bigger difference there than with any national vote you cast.
barbara
Symbolic actions are important precisely because they get someone like Bittman to write about them. Who else right now in a conventional-wisdom-influencing position is calling attention to hunger and poverty — not a whole lot of people. But also, there’s nothing mutually exclusive about taking political actions and taking symbolic actions. And if fasting makes you think twice or three times about the problem of hunger in America, then maybe you’ll be more motivated to do something about it.
Guster
Donating money and giving food to a shelter isn’t going to help, either. Not in the long run. They’re just another way to feel good.
Linda Featheringill
@JPL:
The publicity can’t hurt.
Aaron Fown
#4 So, the Dems had a plan to stop global warming, or at least prepare for it’s effects? They were going to go after the criminals on Wall St., push efficiency and prepare for an alternative energy future?
In what universe is that? I would love to move there; it would be nice to have someone to vote for for once, rather than just having people to vote against.
Have you ever considered that the reasons that the Dems lost the last election is that they essentially agree with the Reps on these issues, and people are getting sick of having no alternatives?
Guster
@cleek:What makes a difference, and how do we get from here to there?
Linda Featheringill
@Cermet:
Which is what I was saying before the election. And so were you, probably.
Cat Lady
@Aaron Fown:
This. Each according to their skillfullness. In Buddhism the concept is called Upaya. It’s an important aspect of bringing the whole world to enlightenment by adapting one’s message to the audience. The FSM works in mysterious ways, but I still won’t hold out much hope for Boehner.
Linda Featheringill
Interesting post and thread. Thank you mistermix.
I really do have to get to work but I’ll read the comments later.
Carry on.
LGRooney
Not sure whether this snark is off topic and better posted in an open thread but…
Send the money to Sean Duffy. Apparently, he needs the help.
And, how is it that a town hall meeting between a rep and his constituents is copy protected.
I wonder if universities (or their professors) can use this excuse.
Josh
Anne Moody made the same complaint about MLK’s march on Washington: “What’s this idiot wasting his time dreaming when people are getting beaten and lynched? Activists don’t dream: they work!”
stuckinred
Damn, ya’ll is some cold motherfucker this mornin!
kdaug
@Aaron Fown:
“Faith without works is dead. James 2:20” Work without faith is fine too, in my book.
Don’t much care if you worship Beelzebub and have prayer circles on a pentagram – if you’re feeding the hungry, tending to the sick, or donating to the poor, you’re a net plus.
Omnes Omnibus
@Aaron Fown: Run for office or recruit someone who you can support. If Democrats don’t do it for you; find someone who does. Until you do that, your choices are effectively binary. You can vote for the Republican or the person with a chance to keep a Republican out of office (almost always a Democrat). If you can look at WI, MI, and OH and say Democrats and Republicans want the same thing, you are either confused or exaggerating for effect.
Captain Howdy
You’re making it sound like people have to choose between making useless gestures of conscience and doing *something* to keep Evildoers out of power. That’s a false dichotomy, misterm. Obviously a lot of people are doing both.
beltane
Liberals do not need to give up eating. What they do need to give up is their fear of confrontation. That’s why we have hippie-punching and not wingnut-punching. Bullies fold surprisingly fast when they themselves are bullied. All this talk about “being the only adult in the room” and “not stooping to their level” is just a way of expressing fear of the bully. You fight the enemy where they are and there are no brownie points to be had by being the only adult in the room.
On the other hand, that young man who set fire to himself in Tunisia this January did have a tremendous effect on his country. If you want to go the route of sainthood, you had better be sure your movement has real martyrs.
kdaug
@beltane:
Reckon there’s ~15 million American feeling real martyr-y about now.
cmorenc
@Comrade Javamanphil:
We in Raleigh, North Carolina are VIVIDLY witnessing the power of this advice in action. Too bad that it’s a 5-4 majority of hard-right GOP wingnuts who took your advice, ran for the school board, won in 2010 when too many dems and indifferent indies sat out the election pouting, and are now determinedly running what was an excellent, diverse public school system straight into the ground.
Southern Beale
Tell that to Gandhi, MLK, Alice Paul, Rosa Parks, etc.
Southern Beale
This was interesting: The Conservative States of America, more religious, less educated, lower income:
Yeah how’s that workin’ for ya?
jwb
@Aaron Fown: “people are getting sick of having no alternatives?”
Anyone who believes this is not paying attention.
beltane
@kdaug: What really made Herbert Hoover and the GOP villains in the minds of Americans in the 1930’s was his ordering of the troops to fire upon the Bonus Army, a group of WWI vets and their families who had marched on Washington to demand payment of benefits that had been promised them.
jibeaux
Dude, eating local and organic is a lot more than a feel-good gesture. Does it keep Republicans out of office? No. But you’re likely to be supporting a farmer in your community who’s growing food the right way instead of supporting Monsanto, the trucking industry, and a few pennies on the dollar to some guys in Chile.
My guess is, Aaron’s right, and these people are also very likely donating to food banks and to the Democratic party. No need for the circular firing squad before 9 a.m.
geg6
Fuck me if I’m not deathly sick of stupid libs doing useless shit like fasting and prayer, especially prayer. If there is anything more stupid than trying to pray away the gay, it would be trying to pray away the selfishness and venality of our Galtian overlords.
The only upside to stupid shit like Bittman’s ever-so-self-important fasting and praying is that at least he has a megaphone to talk about it. That’s something, at least. A very small something, though.
I just gathered up some canned goods for the Boy Scout food drive this next month. Someone will have some food for a couple of days because of that. Sure is a lot more effective than fucking praying even if it won’t save the world. Meanwhile, I continue with political action because that’s the only way to fix the problem.
Comrade Javamanphil
@cmorenc: 2012 should be a better year for Democrats in general. Lots of opportunities for coattail victories in these lower ballot races. Hopefully the damage won’t be too great by then. Good luck.
beltane
@Southern Beale: These people achieved their goals not because of the kumbaya but because they were willing to put their lives on the line. If prayer gives you the fortitude to submit to cops beating the shit out of you and possibly killing you then fine. If it’s just about the prayer alone, and “feeling good” then it becomes an exercise in wankery.
jibeaux
@Comrade Javamanphil:
Problem for us is that the next election is only cycling for one of the bad guys, and multiple good guys. And the election is November of this year, not 2012. We have to hold all our good guys, and get rid of the New Jersey jackass.
Resident Firebagger
As much as I’ve come to loathe the Obama administration, I can’t imagine not voting against Republicans in all state and local elections.
That said, the Dems lost in ’10 because shit didn’t get better since ’08. It’s a natural, human reaction to suffering, and anyone could see it coming. Republicans have and will fuck things up worse, and people will vote Democrat again. Then the Democrats will continue to not make things better, and the desperate cycle repeats itself, while a whole lot of major corporations pay next to nothing in taxes.
geg6
@Southern Beale:
Oh, please. They didn’t just pray and fast and hope everything got straightened out by some miracle. They added political action in the mix. I didn’t read the article (sorry, but airy fairy pronouncements of self-righteousness make me physically ill), but does Bittman discuss taking any real political action to change the policies that are making people go hungry?
cathyx
One of the most effective things we can do to take back our power is to take our money out of the big megabanks and put it in a credit union. Why anyone is still banking with bad guys is beyond me.
NickM
I agree with the posters above that Mr.Mix too blithely dismisses things like buying local and consuming according to one’s values. Avoiding contributing profits to the Monsantos and Walmarts of the world (and trying to shop union whenever you can) is worthwhile and doesn’t take away from other, possibly more useful work.
danimal
Secular liberals don’t always understand that prayer and fasting can be POWERFUL statements of moral indignation OR wimpy symbolic feel-goodism. It has more to do with the passion and enthusiasm of the activist than anything else.
Religious/spiritual/moral ‘righteousness’ is an almost necessary part of the mix in any effective movement of social change. Work with the fasters instead of mocking them. It takes contributions from all types and all levels to effect large-scale social change.
beltane
@geg6: I think people tend to misunderstand what the principle of non-violence is all about, which is about using the violence or threatened violence of the other side to the advantage of one’s own cause. It is about employing a force greater than violence, which is to take blows without returning them. Non-violence is one of the hardest things in the world, praying is among the easiest.
Southern Beale
@geg6:
Boy Scouts? The anti-gay Boy Scouts? HYPOCRITE!
See how easy that was?
There is no such thing as an empty gesture. And I’m sorry if you think prayer is useless, but I happen to think it sends a really powerful statement, especially when the New York Times is writing about it and most especially when all we ever hear about religious people is that they hate gays and abortion. Too often people of faith working on behalf of the poor and the voiceless are ignored by the media, even disparaged by the likes of Glenn Beck. And now we’ve got people talking and taking action about budgets being moral documents and we have liberals saying “oh useless empty gesture!” Get a fucking clue.
People who disparage the role of the faith community in bringing about social change forget MLK was a preacher. No great movement for social change has happened in this country without the work of people of faith, and that includes abolishing slavery, women’s equality, and the anti-war and civil rights movements.
I don’t give a shit what ones’ personal beliefs are, but when religious leaders stand up and put the lie to Republican claims for moral authority by addressing their immoral budget they should be cheered.
joe from Lowell
You’re wrong, mistermix.
If I can’t dance I don’t want to be in your revolution – Emma Goldman.
Even if I were to accept your assertion that non-governmental action can’t accomplish things – which I don’t – morale matters. Consciousness-raising matters. It clarifies issues and gets people on board.
Think of these things as gateway drugs.
joe from Lowell
@rea:
Uh, yeah, just look at how politically apathetic the Moral Majority was, or the black churches in the South a couple generations ago, or the Hindus in the 40s, or the Muslim Brotherhood, or the religious Zionists, or the Ghost Shirt movement, or the Catholic Workers.
Bucha slack-jawed couch potatoes, amirite?
jibeaux
And can I just say that if you are interested in good food, are reasonably comfortable in a kitchen, and are busy, you could do a lot worse than checking out Bittman’s cookbook Kitchen Express. Perfect for working moms, and nary a can of cream of mushroom soup in the book.
kingubu
How ’bout this: If the sole point of your post/tweet/article/epic poem/interpretive dance routine is to tell some other mufukas that they are doing their activism wrong then why not just take your dog for a walk instead.
Sure, the aggregate output of lefty blogosphere would be cut in half overnight but we’d be a nation of very well-exercised dogs.
Menu
Perhaps this column will get through to the sort of liberal that believes that the greatest threat to democracy is the use of high fructose corn syrup in food processing.
beltane
@joe from Lowell: I think Mistermix is frustrated with this particular variety of consciousness raising. Buying ultra-expensive organic vegetables and fasting are hardly what Emma Goldman envisioned when she spoke of the Propaganda of the Deed. Why have all the progressive bad-asses from the 20th century been reduced to some kind of feel-good liberal pablum? Emma Goldman, MLK, Ghandi and all the rest scared the living crap out of the powers that be of their time. If you’re not scaring the Koch brothers with your protest, you’re doing it wrong.
Wil
Hear hear! I remember being invited to protests where they were going to make giant puppets (I think it was a Food Not Bombs thing) and march around doing something or other….and I told them to call me back when they got around to throwing rocks.
Lots of attention focused on protesting for unions lately….and how a few hundred thousand people could gather peacefully.
That’s awesome. Peace and all that.
But the history of protesting FOR REAL, for real rights that we all enjoy today (for how much longer) is not a history of peaceful marches where the takeaway is how friggin’ peaceful everything was.
mistermix
On the point that people fasting are also doing other political action: As long as they don’t think that it’s sparking useful change, and as long as they’re not trying to convince others that their fasting/praying/hoping is sparking useful change, I really don’t care. We all have our hobbies.
Southern Beale
@geg6:
Oh fuck off. Neither are these people. Do you even know who Jim Wallis is? Do you know who Tony Hall is? Are you familiar with Bread For The World and the other organizations involved in this action? Read about it here.
Have you ever participated in a social justice action? You really think what we do is sit in our living rooms and sing kumbaya and hope all will be well and if not, well, I did my part? You think that’s what happens? Do you think a prayer and fast for the poor isn’t followed by other action? Get a clue.
joe from Lowell
@beltane:
Tell it to Bobby Sands.
MKS
Fasting to protest imperial oppression of a colony is good.
Fasting to protest “legally” institutionalized segregation is good.
Fasting to protest the government not forcibly taking away the people’s money to feed to hungry is bad.
Please do not attempt to disguise compulsion as compassion.
joe from Lowell
@mistermix:
This NYT story about them is going to spark more useful change than the sum total of every blog post you’ll ever write.
joe from Lowell
@MKS:
Sorry, libertoid, I can’t hear your whining about having a little less money than you’d like over the grumbling of a few million empty children’s bellies.
Why should anyone give a crap about your “problems,” especially such an insignificant one as earning enough money to be in a high-tax bracket, when you so plainly don’t care about others’?
ETA: P.S. – We don’t tax people to try to save their souls. We tax people to get enough money to provide the help people need.
mistermix
@joe from Lowell:
Since I’m not deluded about the effect of my hobby of posting on this blog, that doesn’t bother me in the least.
Svensker
@barbara:
Yes, what you said. Ghandi and MLK, anyone? Much of the impetus behind the anti-slavery movement came from Quakers and other religious groups.
Yes, of course you need “practical” action, but changing people’s hearts and minds is also necessary.
Observer
@mistermix: You were right the first time.
No need to be conciliatory.
In particular, this showy peacock type of moral outrage gives rise to the annoying Liberal houlier-than-thou stereotype that tends to turn people off. Absolutely no one gives a crap if some “foodie” they’ve never heard off stops eating for a few days. But they do give a crap when some holier-than-thou type tries to guilt trip into supporting some cause they really don’t care about.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Republicans just stole your lunch.
You should stick to your guns.
beltane
@Southern Beale: These are good people doing good things but the fact that not many people have heard of them means that they are failures in the social change department. My local food bank, which I give to often, is good at getting food out to people; it is not good at changing the system so that people don’t go hungry in the first place. Since MLK’s assassination this country had been on a steady right-wing trajectory without any significant push back from the left. That is what Mistermix is upset about.
Southern Beale
@mistermix:
Your post is terribly ignorant and uninformed. The Left’s tendency toward outright hostility in regards to Christians is understandable, since we’re so often given a caricature of religious people — the intolerant hypocrite, Pat Robertson/James Dobson type. I get that. But when Christians act as staunch advocates for the poor and some folks on the Left dismiss it as just so much bullshit that pisses me off.
These actions aren’t targeted at you. They’re targeted at the millions of people in this country for whom religion and faith is an important part of their lives.
Southern Beale
@mistermix:
Your post is terribly ignorant and uninformed. The Left’s tendency toward outright hostility in regards to Christians is understandable, since we’re so often given a caricature of religious people — the intolerant hypocrite, Pat Robertson/James Dobson type. I get that. But when Christians act as staunch advocates for the poor and some folks on the Left dismiss it as just so much bullshit that pisses me off.
These actions aren’t targeted at you. They’re targeted at the millions of people in this country for whom religion and faith is an important part of their lives.
geg6
@Southern Beale:
Fuck off yourself. Yes, I know who those people are. As I said regarding MLK and Gandhi, they actually do something other than fast and pray. If it makes you feel good to do that, fine with me. Just don’t expect me to do it or think it’s anything other than an empty gesture, not unlike my giving canned goods to the Boy Scouts. Now, if you’re out there canvassing, raising money to get actual liberals elected, putting yourself in harm’s way in order to force change, then I’m all for it. Just don’t expect me to do anything nicer than ignore you when you’re praying that your invisible sky god will put good will toward all mankind into David Koch’s shriveled heart.
PurpleGirl
@cathyx: Because there isn’t a credit union they can join? Credit unions are usually organized with criteria for joining like working for the city government (NYC’s Municipal Credit Union), or a company (IBM Federal Union, or a school (NYU has one alumni can join but it restricts your activity levels and is inconvenient).
cleek
can any of the defenders of this kind of action explain to me what the effect of one person not eating for 24 hours is supposed to be ?
who, among the people with the power to implement anything these protesters want, is going to say “oh, those people didn’t eat for a day. how uncomfortable. they must be serious about this! i should act immediately!”
even more importantly: how does this convince anyone who opposes the protesters’ preferred result to change his/her mind?
Observer
@Svensker: You should be embarrassed.
Before “Ghandi”, there was the younger Ghandi who helped organized the Zulu War of 1906 (real war with real guns) and the Ghandi of 1918 with the “Champaran agitation”.
Before MLK and Rosa Parks there was Claudette Colvin who refused to give up her seat on the bus, which then caused MLK to organize and prepare his people for 9 months before Rosa Parks sat on her bus as part of that insurrection.
Before Bittman gave up his food, he did what to prepare? Oh that’s right, went to party in the right social circles in NYC. Real tough.
geg6
@Southern Beale:
You mean like the Catholic Church? The one that would rather shut down its charitable venues in DC rather than provide services to people who voted for marriage equality? Or the one that abuses and tortures children and attempts to cover it up while it provides medical services to the people in Africa who have AIDS but who wouldn’t have contracted it if they’d allow condom distribution through their Catholic services? Those Christians?
cathyx
@PurpleGirl: They’ve relaxed the rules about membership criteria. I can join mine because I live in the county I live in. It’s worth looking into.
geg6
@PurpleGirl:
I don’t know about where you live, but there a numerous community credit unions that serve their local communities. There is one local one here in Beaver County that only requires an address in Beaver County.
OzoneR
@Aaron Fown:
Cap and Trade. It passed the House and was supported by the President, filibustered in the Senate.
I know you’d like to think that, but any idiot can see how wrong that is. Any moron can see they don’t “essentially” agree on issues. This is the swan song of lefties who don’t want to admit certain realities. it’s a lot nicer than admitting the voters in this country are just plain idiots, but turnout in 2010 among Democrats was just as high as 2006. People didn’t not vote because Obama didn’t do enough, they just voted Republican.
Captain Howdy
@Menu: I hadn’t really thought about it before but, it kinda is …
danimal
@geg6: Mock away at people of faith acting on their convictions to publicize the needs of the poor.
Because pissing off potential allies by mocking their most deeply-held beliefs is a crucial part of liberal political practice.
Why do we keep losing to the GOP? Could it be that part of the blame is our own?
Woodrowfan
Only if that’s all you do. But if someone is hungry it doesn’t help them to say “sorry, no food today, but I’m working to change the system!”
OzoneR
@beltane:
Did anyone notice the front page diary at DailyKos the other day whining that Bill Maher called Palin a “dumb twat” and how that was over the top and sexist.
I’m so glad one of our esteemed liberal fighters spent their time discussing whether or not an attack on an opponent was over the top rather that hitting said opponent. Meanwhile, the right rearms while we discuss whether or not we should use hand grenades or bazookas.
Someone in that thread said “If we can’t fight clean, then we shouldn’t be fighting at all.” I think that was telling.
Observer
@danimal:
It’s easy to tell when a party stands for something because those are the issues that they refuse to negotiate away and instead would accept a potential “loss” rather than compromise.
You lose because Dems don’t actually stand for anything, anymore. It may take a while but people notice these sorts of things.
beatty
@geg6: As someone who was the recipient of food donations from the church and sheriff’s office on a few occasions while growing up, it helped us to have food, yes. But kind words, spoken intentions, made us feel as if we were not alone. Why can’t there be both?
PurpleGirl
@cathyx: I have looked into it; that’s how I know what I know about credit unions. I have a friend who is even on the board of one, but she once worked for the state.
joe from Lowell
@mistermix:
That’s a shame, because political communication through the media can be a powerful political tool.
scav
Oh goody, anther spirited chest-thumping operatic duet rolling its way into stanza one hundred of billionty seven of “the there’s only one single messiah and one pure and effective way to do anything”. Have we cleared up whether this one is properly Baroque or High Renaissance?
joe from Lowell
@geg6:
And the mask slips.
If these people weren’t religious, this post never gets written.
joe from Lowell
@cleek:
To be part of a mass movement that gets the issues of poverty, hunger, and government cuts in front of the eyeballs of millions of people.
It’s not aimed at them.
It’s not aimed at them, either. It fires up our side to do it, and it puts the issue in front of a lot of people in the middle.
Lol
Reminds me the Netroots. Post enough times and Edwards will get elected. At the same time, they’ve denigrated and laughed at OFA (during the campaign and after) for focusing on putting people on the ground instead of kissing Markos’ ring.
geg6
@beatty:
Where on earth did I say to smack around or yell at hungry people? FTR, my family also was the beneficiary of donations when my father was on strike as a member of the USW. But it wasn’t our church providing us with those food baskets. It was the USW. Our church did nothing other than tell us to pray that Jones and Laughlin and the USW would find a way to compromise. That was really, really helpful to my parents with six kids, let me tell you.
You think I cuss out the Boy Scouts when I give my donations? You think I scream “Get a job, lazy fuck!” at the people who come to the soup kitchen at which I volunteer once a month or the food pantry where I help sort donations? I may be a militant atheist, but I don’t preach to these people like all the “religious” assholes who show up but never do any of the work. I smile at the patrons and play with their kids while telling the god botherers to stay the fuck away from me while I work or I’ll punch them in the neck.
geg6
@joe from Lowell:
Yeah, because I support child abuse and torture when it’s done by non-believers.
joe from Lowell
@geg6: Did you feel a whooshing sensation on the top of your scalp when you read my comment, by any chance?
Zoom!
Ash Can
@Observer:
Aside from the fact that the actual reason the Dems lost ground last year was that the economy in general and the job market in particular were still tanked, the truth at this point is exactly the opposite of what you say. The Dems definitely do stand for something. Many things, in fact — too many things, and that’s the problem.
The Dems have become two parties in one — liberals/progressives, and more conservative, business-oriented opposition. They are what the the national political landscape looked like 40-50 years ago, in and of themselves. And this is because the moderate elements of the Republican party have migrated out of that party and into the only nationally viable party that takes them seriously anymore. Now, instead of the Democratic and Republican parties, we have the Democratic party and The John Birch Home For the Clinically Insane. When there are no other people in the room either willing or able to hold up their end of an intelligent conversation, your only option is to talk to yourself.
artem1s
@Aaron Fown:
I agree. A cultural change at the grass roots level needs to happen. It has to do with the culture of greed and the televangelist habit of preaching hate from the pulpit. Religion isn’t the only answer but when you have this many people feeding on hatred of the poor and working classes it affects politics all the way up to the White House. Philanthropy was once viewed as an integral part of life, not just a way to socialize with the rich and famous.
Step one to any healing process is admitting you have a problem. If meditation and prayer gets them there then more power to them.
Lol
Maybe it’s the Catholic Church that will publicly deny Communion to pro-choice politicians but never ever contemplates denying it to politicians who cut social services.
The Raven
But boycotts and fasts might persuade some Republican voters to your side. There are worse things to try.
Observer
@Ash Can: In the general sense that you describe you are half correct.
You are correct in that one could say there’s two groups in the Dem party and you are also correct in saying that the conservative side stand for something. We know what *they* stand for; it’s the Evan Bayh’s of the world. Corporatist etc.
But I’m afraid it’s untrue when you imply/assume that the liberal/progressive side stand for anything.
They *say* they stand for something but what exactly is it?
cleek
@joe from Lowell:
maybe it fires-up a small subset of “our side”, but it’s far more likely that most people will just shake their head and sigh.
and frankly, this is the kind of situation your “protest people” theory works best on.
sadly, no. this is a college-level stunt.
ever watch Community? this is the shit first-season Britta would do, for the people of Tibet. “i’m starving myself in the quad! notice me and my plight!”
people would laugh and throw things at her on their way to class.
geg6
@joe from Lowell:
Oooooo, snap! You really think I give a damn that you are aware that I think your church is a criminal organization that should be shut down, its assets confiscated and distributed to the poor, and its adherents embarrassed to admit to it? FWIW, I detest evangelical Christians almost as much and Mormons even more. So get over your persecution complex.
Ash Can
@Observer: Of course it’s true that the liberals/progressives stand for something. Just look at the voting records of the members of the House Liberal Caucus. Or the voting records of any individual legislators typically recognized as “liberals.” Or the characteristics of any predominantly “liberal” community in the US. Government services over tax cuts, measures against poverty and hunger, protection of the environment, anti-war, voting rights and equality in general. These have been what the liberals/progressives have stood for for decades, with no change. Maybe that’s why this fact is so overlooked — liberals haven’t become radicalized like the conservatives have, so there’s no news there.
Omnes Omnibus
@geg6: You know that many liberal social justice movements have had their roots in, or strong ties to, religious groups, right? I am not religious myself, but I don’t see the point in telling people that they are delusional or attacking them for having religious beliefs. My guess is that for every abusive priest or intolerant minister whipping up hatred, there is at least one person preaching tolerance of working with the poor. So, to sum up, get off your high horse. I don’t want to drive away potential allies just because you want to maintain a sense of superiority due to a lack of faith.
That being said, I really don’t see the point of the giant puppet heads that show up at protests.
Yevgraf (fka Michael)
Hunger strikes are gay, and not in a good way.
I’d prefer that society New Yorkers show their solidarity with working people by throwing rotten fruit directly at David Koch’s face whenever he pops it out in public, by sharing his speaking and charity event schedule, by helping stand on picket in front of his office and gated home.
I want that fucker to be terrified that something is going to happen to him wherever he goes, and I want that fear to spread to his co-ideologues.
socratic_me
@kingubu: Seconded.
OzoneR
@Observer:
and when they win, it’s because they do?
Look at who lost last year. Russ Feingold didn’t stand for anything? Alan Grayson didn’t stand for anything? Joe Sestak didn’t stand for anything? Heath Shuler did?
ETA: I saw your later comment and that makes sense. You have a point that liberals don’t seem to “stand for anything” but I think that’s true of liberal voters too.
I mean the most radically leftest people I know hold some teabagger views on one issue or another. I know one who wants to kick out all illegal immigrants and have quotas. I know another who thinks we need to cut taxes on the rich. I don’t know any lefty who is completely left, so I don’t know why this would be an issue
Observer
@Ash Can:
No I don’t think so.
There’s a difference between being seen as standing for something and actually standing for something.
Take the Republicans. They’re against abortion. They never stop organizing against it. They just keep coming at you. Because they actually believe in what they’re doing.
Now take just one of the things from your list you gave: voting rights. I could take any of the others, but let’s use voting rights.
1) are they *any* organized behind the scenes legislators ready to give DC residents voting rights? No.
2) is there any movement to increase the number of seats in congress, like they used to do until about 1906, rather than gerrymandering the 438 every decade? No.
3) the Senate still has a ridiculous anti-democratic 40 person filibuster rule and is there any widespread movement by progressives to loudly demand majority rules? No.
4) is there *any* high profile campaign in California to remove the silly 2/3 super majority rule for tax increases? No. Constitutional challenges? No. Secret cabal of agitators to stack the Cal State Supreme Court to overturn it? No.
5) Movement to change the anti-democratic Electoral College? No. Well maybe sorta. So qualified maybe.
But is there a high profile hue and cry about racism whenever Republicans want to require ID at polls? YES!!!!!
It’s the same for pretty well any other issue with the progs/libs. It’s all for show, but no actual movement for anything other than for chances to say Repubs are racist or sexist.
Judas Escargot (aka "your liberal-interventionist pal, who's fun to be with")
@MKS:
Please do not attempt to disguise compulsion as compassion.
No disguises here, brother: Sometimes the former is the only way to exercise the latter.
low-tech cyclist
your good feelings are not going to win the class war that Bittman writes about so eloquently in his column.
Well, WTF will? “Donate cash to your local Democrats”? Been there, done that. We got a President and huge Congressional majorities that, when the chips were down, weren’t willing to take a stand over the pocketbook issues that actually mattered to people. As a result, the political landscape is far worse than it was in 2007.
No, we’ve got to figure out a new path forward, one that at least addresses what went wrong in the past Congress, and what’s still going wrong now.
I think we need an identifiable progressive party-within-a-party whose aim would be to take over the Democratic Party so that it would be clearly on the side of the broad middle class against our Galtian overlords.
Observer
@OzoneR: “Dems” means the party as a whole not 2 or 3 specific individuals out of a nation of over 300 million.
And even when they win like Obama, they lose (*cough* tax breaks for millionaires *cough*).
OzoneR
@low-tech cyclist:
if they actually mattered to people, they would’ve HAD to take a stand.
you need the voters to support it first
West of the Cascades
What was the point of all those black people (and some white, and some brown) people marching from Selma to Montgomery in 1965? Just a symbolic, feel-good “typically useless liberal political gesture.” Just another pretty pointless action that for a lot of people included prayer and faith as a motivation.
If you don’t get the connection that works for a lot of people between religious faith and action that people take out of that faith, because it doesn’t work for you, shut the fuck up and do what does work for you. I can pray and fast AND contribute to food banks AND attend the local (also pointless?) rallies in favor of union workers AND try to tithe my income to local services that help the poor AND vote for the most liberal leftist politicians I can (and actively work to support them) because I think that left politics matches how I perceive my faith. And I can also walk and chew gum at the same time. The premise of this post that symbolic gestures are, by definition, not matched by genuine action (or by political action) is simply false.
geg6
@Omnes Omnibus:
You do realize that this is the internet, right? I’ll get on my high horse here any time I want because I don’t do it IRL for exactly the reasons you enumerate. If bitching about asshole religionists on the internet is going to make them wingnuts, then they aren’t the allies I want anyway.
OzoneR
@Observer:
Depends on your definition of “lose”
Openly gay teenagers who will be able to join the military once they turned 18, and college students who will have 3-4 years after college before they have to worry about whether they have to forsake their careers to find “something with benefits” probably won’t think Dems “lost”
Cris
No comparison. Boycotting and fasting are symbolic actions; consumer choice is direct action. The latter isn’t intended to change the makeup of the house of representatives. You can certainly argue that it only serves to make a person feel good and doesn’t change things, but that’s true of voting too, if that’s all you do and you do it privately. Both have to be done collectively to have a real impact.
Observer
@OzoneR: I guess we “won” then even though the number of people, staff, teachers, fireman and others who lose their job to cut spending is greater than the number of gay Army teenagers by several thousand orders of magnitude. Not to mention the cut pensions and general economic malaise and millions still out of work.
But theoretically a few ovewhelmingly healthy 20-something college students can get health insurance that they generally don’t need.
If this is winning then we need to move to a Tom Tomorrow anti-universe.
danimal
@geg6: This is real life.
To pretend that the anonymity of the internet means that people somehow react differently to provocations is naive.
Please think about how the anti-religious invective plays to your potential allies. You do not need to agree with them, but it’s not smart to drive them away from your side needlessly.
I guess I’ll never understand why today’s secular liberals can’t cool their heels and build a coalition with faith-based liberals. When they have in the past, it has worked.
bookcat
So after reading the post and the ensuing comments, I see that we’re all so angry at what the Republicans are doing that we are attacking each other. Nice. Productive.
Lol
@96: the filibuster thing in unfair. After all, the Netroots asked people to sign an online petition last year. What more do you want?!
Barb (formerly Gex)
@geg6: And fortunately you know, with out any reason to doubt, that these folks are doing nothing beyond their symbolic gesture. Good to know.
The pragmatists on this blog are really big fans of assuming that people don’t do anything effective. I remember being frequently told as a gay person that I should “do something effective” about DADT instead of having the discussions I was having.
I just sounds like telling hippies to shut up then punching them.
Barb (formerly Gex)
I’m going to volunteer for AmeriCorp, donate all my money to the food shelter, quit my job to spend all my time helping the less fortunate. Now can I make a symbolic gesture?
OzoneR
@Observer:
well, clearly we should prioritize what’s important by counting the number of people effect by an issue. Obviously we should have told the gays to wait until we can raise taxes on the rich.
This is another way liberals just utterly FAIL as a movement, now you’re out telling gays and college kids their issues don’t matter because “there aren’t enough of them.” Maybe if they didn’t vote Democratic by larger numbers than public workers.
Lol
The Netroots is notoriously inactive when it comes to politics. This is a crowd that thinks signing an online petition is the height of activism.
If they backed up even half their talk, Edwards would’ve won the nomination. As it is, they’ve generally derided the efforts of organizations that do actual work.
Omnes Omnibus
@geg6: No, it’s not going to make them wingnuts, but it sure as hell isn’t going to encourage them to work with you. If you basically tell someone you despise them, they aren’t going to very enthused about collaborating with you on anything. To make a liberal coalition larger, it needs more people. If your only quarrel with someone is that they believe prayer helps and you don’t, maybe you should shut up about it. This is especially true if they aren’t getting in your face to tell you that you need to pray along with them. Seriously, what does it matter to you?
b-psycho
…yeah, because then the hungry can always eat the Democrats when the food bank runs out. I hear they taste like lobster.
Joe Buck
“If you want to help a hungry person, donate food to your local food bank and donate cash to your local Democrats.”
Yes to food banks, but I suggest investigating your local Democrats first, giving only to those who are genuinely for the people and avoiding those who are for the corporations.
Elliecat
Shall we talk about symbolic gestures? Donating food to a food bank is pretty much that. The guy who runs our regional food bank says that can drives are totally about educating children by giving them a tangible lesson about giving. For stocking the food bank, they are almost negligible. What the food bank needs is MONEY. They buy in bulk so they can buy a case of cans (or more) for what you have paid for the can you donated.
I see this in my church’s food pantry. A lot of what people donate is redundant—canned veg, pasta, beans. A nice extra drop in the bucket but doesn’t make that much difference. Money or specifically requested items (luxuries like cooking oil, coffee, toothpaste, tampons) make a much bigger difference.
Jenn
Wow. Religious threads sure break out the circular firing squad. I’m an agnostic myself, but know a whole lot of religious folks, right and left, who draw on their faith to help them be better people and be of use to and comfort to those who need help. And of all those folks, I can think of only one who tried to convert me. (I’ve had plenty of folks try to convert me, but they tend to be more holier-than-thou and less active). And while organizing a fast may seem a symbolic protest, we humans tend to rely on symbolism a lot, for both good and ill. And I suspect some folks who engage in this fast will be better able to understand hunger issues at a gut level (pardon the pun) than they had been, possibly creating some more true activists, both politically and practically. I think a far more productive post would have been to say: Great! Step 1 is to raise awareness and empathy. Now hhere are some ideas to folow up for steps 2 through (however many).
Barb (formerly Gex)
@Jenn: How do you fit in your hippie punching? Is there a step 1b?
4jkb4ia
Bittman indirectly admitted what mistermix is getting at. The full quote from Isaiah that his interlocutor referenced is
“Surely, this is the fast I choose: to break open the shackles of wickedness, to undo the bonds of injustice, let the oppressed go free, and undo all perverted [justice]. Surely you should share your bread with the hungry, and bring the moaning poor to your home; when you see the naked, clothe him, and do not ignore your kin.”
(Artscroll Machzor) That’s the Haftarah for Yom Kippur for a reason. I have little trouble with fasting for one day, but the fasting is a small sign that you’re not going to seek out your individual desires TODAY. You can make a sign of change or doing things differently as a practice to try to think about the big changes you want to make in your life.
@geg6:
My reference to the TNC comments section on Sunday wasn’t meant to apply to anyone but me. The Balloon Juice comments section is a matter of culture at this point and making it like the TNC comments section is an impossible job. Even John admitted it. For two days, the very thought of “Someone in the comments was mean to me!” was enough for hysterical laughter. (The person who complained to John must be new here…)
Svensker
@West of the Cascades:
Yes. Thank you.
4jkb4ia
Southern Beale:
Hear, hear!
4jkb4ia
Also in part, consciousness-raising efforts like this show Boehner that someone is paying attention to this part of the budget. The easiest things to cut in a complicated beast like the budget are things that have no constituency. The people who read Mark Bittman have the resources to be more politically active than the people who get WIC.
And if such efforts can be mobilized right, they show people in state governments that someone is paying attention. Balancing the budget on the backs of the poor shouldn’t be less sexy than pretending to balance it on the backs of unions.
geg6
@Barb (formerly Gex):
Please, point out to me where I said that. Oh, sorry. You can’t. I asked if Bittman had anything constructive planned other than his symbolic gesture. I still haven’t gotten an answer. So, I’m guessing not.
Gawd, the religionists sure get their panties in a bunch when they get the least bit of criticism. The great and powerful Oz, if he existed, must be ashamed.
geg6
@Omnes Omnibus:
As I said, this is the internet. If I said the shit about these people IRL the way I do on the internet, you’d have a point. But I don’t or, at least, I don’t often.
Funny how it’s only people like me who have to shut up and be polite about our beliefs.
Socratic_me
@geg6: You misunderstand. People aren’t asking you to shut up and be polite about your beliefs because you are an atheist (assuming that is what “people like you” means). People are asking you to shut up and be polite because you are acting like a total ass.
Why is it that people who act like total dickwads inevitably back it up with a healthy dose of persecution complex?
Midnight Marauder
@Southern Beale:
I think it is a bit disingenuous to maintain that those “religious caricatures” you are referencing are something other than extraordinarily prominent representations of their brand of faith in every day American cultural life.
They attract as much attention as they do because their religious counterparts on the Left are unfathomably poor at doing the same.