If anyone watched the full testimony, if you can think of anything else that stood out, please fill us all in. However, I really liked this:
Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates told Congress on Thursday that he opposed having the United States arm the Libyan rebels fighting Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, and that it was up to other countries to provide them with weapons and much-needed military training.
Mr. Gates’s comments, made during a marathon day of testimony to members of Congress angered by President Obama’s incursion into Libya, were the first time that a key member of the president’s national security team had publicly expressed an opinion on the issue. The administration has been engaged in a tense debate over the merits of giving arms to the rebels, and so far Mr. Obama has only said that he is weighing what to do.
“What the opposition needs as much as anything right now is some training, some command and control and some organization,” Mr. Gates said. “It’s pretty much a pick-up ballgame at this point.” But, he said, providing training and weapons is “not a unique capability for the United States, and as far as I’m concerned, somebody else can do that.”
Mr. Gates also said he strongly opposed putting any United States forces on the ground in Libya. Asked if there would be American “boots on the ground” – uniformed members of the military – Mr. Gates swiftly replied, “Not as long as I’m in this job.” He declined to comment on reports that the CIA is already working there.
Amen.
scav
Ever get the impression you’re running about three steps in front of the the flaming mass of insanity that’s being carried up behind you? Clearly you’re a sane member of the 21st century. Enjoy your endangered status and please tip the generously waiter when you leave the shelter.
Lolis
I was always happy Gates stayed on the job for the president. Gates is not perfect, but he is about as good as it is every gonna get for a defense secretary.
BGinCHI
Cue Joe Beese calling Gates a liar and war criminal.
Obama can only fail, he can’t be failed.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
I haven’t watched the proceedings, but how many of these angry people were the ones angry that Obama wouldn’t do anything about Libya?
catclub
“Not as long as I’m in this job.”
When does he announce his resignation?
Or is that it?
Or perhaps by ‘on this job’ he means testifying before congress. As long as he stays there, no boots.
Kind of like the movie where they trapped death in a tree.
Can I suggest a codename the Libya invasion:
Operation Caligula?
Cat Lady
Gate’s book (if he ever writes one) is the one I’d buy. He knows where every body is buried. Obama could do a lot worse than listen to him.
beltane
There is some promising breaking news about Libya at the Guardian liveblog: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/31/gaddaf-envoy-britain-secret-talks-exit-strategy They say high level Gaddfi envoys are in London to negotiate some kind of exit strategy. I will keep my fingers crossed.
cat48
Social outcast
Gates was reported to be underwhelmed by the idea of bombing Libya when it first came up, so he’s consistent here.
Mark S.
The last thread got a little weird.
cathyx
So when is Gates going to be asked to resign?
General Stuck
How I stopped worrying, and learned to love bombs for humanity.
It’s all insane, welcome to the world we live in.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Lolis:
Agreed.
Ronc99
While John Woo, er, Cole is high fiving the Republican SecDef, Mr. Gates is due to resign, any fucking day now. Have another glass of wine, John!
Xantar
@Mark S.:
Low-flow toilets!
(Did I just summon the trolls?)
Ronc99
The entire Middle East is falling apart and God knows what disasters will emanate from them, but Mr. Gates is a success story? ROFLMAO!!! What a bunch of Obama lemmings this site foments!
Rosalita
@Mark S.:
Looks like the weirdness has carried over to this one
Bob Loblaw
@Ronc99:
John Woo, eh? I haven’t seen any flocks of doves around this place lately, but I’ll take your word for it…
4tehlulz
@Ronc99: 0/10
JGabriel
NY Times:
Isn’t that the president’s decision? If Gates had Obama’s permission to express that sentiment, fine. But I’m not sure it’s Gates’s place to be so unequivocal about deployments when Obama hasn’t articulated his strategy yet.
For the record, I don’t have a problem with Gates’s viewpoint. I’m just not sure about the manner, venue, and timing of his making it public. It certainly seems more presumptuous than, for instance, Crowley’s comments on Manning’s treatment.
Edited to Add:
Oh, never mind. Didn’t see that part.
.
Ronc99
John,
I have to ask, were you standing at attention while Secretary Gates delivered his message to Congress?
lamh32
Is what Sec Gates saying any different than what the President has been saying?
Or is Gates words more trustworthy than Obama’s?
Chyron HR
@Bob Loblaw:
I think he means Dr. John Wu, of the Biscayne Bay Wus.
Maude
@General Stuck:
Dr. Strangelove, please come to the white courtesy phone.
General Stuck
@JGabriel:
It is Gates decision to walk out the door for what he believes. I like that kind of independent response on the question of war and sending in troops somewhere. It was subtle enough to not be an overt challenge to the presnit’s authority, but the message was clear.
Ronc99
JGabriel,
Ask yourself this, how do you know it’s not really President Gates? You make good points, but I can speak for the ObamaBots: Gates spoke as *sole* authority. Zing! Over thar tinfoiled noggins with thar required hand salute to thar SecDef. Qeue the “Bringing in the Sheaves” music — thank you.
Mark S.
@Rosalita:
It’s like an airborne virus.
Midnight Marauder
@Bob Loblaw:
Personally, I hope the 2012 presidential campaign looks something like this.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@lamh32: Well, he is a REPUBLICAN SecDef, where the President is a squishy Democrat. We all know who we can trust.
(I would label it snark, but that belief does still affect liberals, too.)
Ruckus
@4tehlulz:
Must be springtime.
Gates is what a professional person is supposed to sound like. Knows their stuff, doesn’t seem to pull any punches and doesn’t sound like an ass doing it.
joe from Lowell
@cathyx: Never.
Gates has been out in front of, and saying things not in line with, Obama’s statements for weeks now. He was openly skeptical of the No Fly Zone.
And yet, he’s still there.
BGinCHI
@Mark S.: Jesus, it’s worse than Beese!
It’s like Beese threw up and the vomit signed in as RonC and started trolling.
Gin & Tonic
Gates was conspicuously silent on the subject of toilet bowls, if you ask me.
Just Some Fuckhead
Thank god Obama kept a lifelong Republican and Bush family confidante on as Defense Sec. Lord knows, a Democrat or a liberal certainly wouldn’t be qualified to do the job.
JGabriel
General Stuck, Ronc99: I’ve edited my post to reflect that Gates stressed Obama’s agreement on the matter, which moots my original question.
.
General Stuck
@JGabriel:
Yea, I saw that just now, and was doing something else so didn’t amend my comment.
Kirk Spencer
Ronc99,
A good troll brings argument and discussion as the position held has at least some touch with reality. A bad troll isn’t a troll at all, but is rather a boor.
I will also point out that a typical troll, and even the clever boor, is wise enough to not spew insults at the man who owns the place. The occasional disparaging remark, certainly, but never more than a couple of such in the midst of the rest of the day’s work.
I say this in the hope that you are educable; that you can rise to at least the condition of an occasionally witty boor, perhaps aspiring to moments of cleverness. I fear trolling is beyond you, but perhaps the horse will learn to sing.
Gin & Tonic
@Just Some Fuckhead: Plenty of Democrats/liberals would be/are qualified. But with this Congress they’d be pushing a rock uphill all day and into the night. Gates can deliver Obama’s message in a way that’s a lot better at ending with an unsaid “and STFU.”
Maude
@Gin & Tonic:
FTW
RP
Is there any actual evidence of a “tense debate” within the administration aside from a few unsourced articles? The phrase is obviously intended to make us think that at least a few high level people within the admin. are advocating for arming the rebels and/or sending in troops, but I’m skeptical.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Gin & Tonic: What about the last one that existed when he was kept on?
James E Powell
Of course not, as Karl Rove famously reminded Americans, after the 9/11 attacks, the Democrats wanted to offer therapy and understanding.
And what are the chances that a Democrat or a liberal will know the basic rules of American military policy:
A) Any use of military force by a Democratic president is unconstitutional, poorly planned and managed, and does not go far enough.
B) Any use of military force by a Republican president is the same as attacking Hitler and anyone asking any questions, even for an estimate of costs, is a traitor, enemy-sympathizer or worse, a Democrat.
Gin & Tonic
@Just Some Fuckhead: Que? I’m missing something here.
BGinCHI
@James E Powell: Don’t worry, Jake Tapper will save us.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Gin & Tonic: The first four years he was on the job, there was a Democratic majority in the House.
srv
Gates is already on his retirement tour. The administration has been floating names (Panetta, Zinni, etc) for the last month or so.
Gates will be gone before summer, unless nobody else can be found.
John W.
Gates is in favor of intervention with limits. So am I. So, apparently, is the President. The more it’s made into isolationists v. neocons, the more the neocons win.
@Lolis:
Agreed, I was happy he stayed on. With the exception of Afghanistan, everything has basically trended in the right direction. That’s not saying a lot, but it says something.
Gin & Tonic
@Just Some Fuckhead: With plenty of Blue Dogs, particularly in Armed Services and Foreign Affairs. I’m not saying it’s the best thing, but it sometimes helps. I don’t think keeping him on is the stupidest thing Obama’s ever done.
Laertes
@JGabriel:
Doesn’t sound presumptuous to me. It’s a straightforward promise/threat to resign if he’s ordered to send ground troops. It’s exactly the sort of thing a SecDef should be doing.
FlipYrWhig
@Gin & Tonic: The same is true, IMHO, for the Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell repeal. Have Gates in that chair and it badly undercuts the counterargument that Democrats are “playing politics with our men in uniform” and all that. But for the most part it sucks that so few Democrats get to have “credibility” on defense. I miss Wesley Clark.
Just Some Fuckhead
@James E Powell:
.. and is simultaneously too slow and too quick. Yeah, yeah.
All the more reason for Democrats to stop with the constant warmongering. When you run the same wars Republicans ran but with more gusto and start news ones Republicans would start and keep a Republican Sec. Def. on board, people rightly become confused about the difference between Republicans and Democrats. Right now, the main defense I’m seeing for Democrats is they are more competent Republicans. I don’t know if that’s the message we should be sending.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Gin & Tonic:
Oh lord no, way down the list. But ultimately it plays into the myth Republicans are more trustworthy on defense.
FlipYrWhig
@Just Some Fuckhead: The churn of crisis, which has been ongoing pretty much ever since September ’08, is forcing that prioritizing of competent management of Republican structures you’re noticing. It always seems like it’s not the time for something that changes the game. IMHO that’s one of the less-remarked but crucial aspects of the Obama presidency: of all that he’s done, how much lines up with what The Plan was? _Maybe_ healthcare. It’s regrettable. On the other hand, I guess it’s typical; I mean, Bush didn’t get “elected” (ahem) by promising to launch wars against terrorist groups, did he?
Tsulagi
@cathyx:
When someone goes full metal stupid in the WH?
Actually, last year Gates designated himself a short timer. Said he would leave sometime after the mid-terms, but before the prez election cycle heats up. Too bad, he’s been an excellent SecDef.
D-Chance.
“What the opposition needs as much as anything right now is some training, some command and control and some organization,” Mr. Gates said.
This is Gatesspeak for “military advisers”. Exactly what Kennedy/Johnson did in Vietnam. How did that work out?
Amen. Ditto. Back atcha. Whatever.
Bob Loblaw
@John W.:
With notably rare exceptions, the Obama administration’s national security and military policies have been a rousing success.
Just Some Fuckhead
@FlipYrWhig: Well, no, I don’t buy your “things are different now with Obama” argument. Bill Clinton appointed William Cohen to the Sec. Def. job.
FlipYrWhig
@Just Some Fuckhead: I don’t think I made a “things are different now with Obama” argument. And I actually agreed with you in comment #50 about the practice of putting Republicans in that position.
Just Some Fuckhead
@FlipYrWhig: Yes, I know. And I actually agree with you about Clark. We prolly met up at a Clark event here and don’t even know it.
FlipYrWhig
@Just Some Fuckhead: Success! Before long we’ll be able to write a bad bromance.
John W.
@Bob Loblaw: Yeah. Afghanistan is quite the turd in the punchbowl, but 1) Obama campaigned on escalation so I can’t be surprised he’s done that and 2) everything else is a step in the right direction.
I do wish they pushed to spend more on foreign aid. USAID pushing back today was a good start.
Just Some Fuckhead
@FlipYrWhig: I’m not much of a grouper. :(
Bob Loblaw
@John W.:
You missed the joke. Lurk moar.
Dave
This is obviously good news for Joe Beese.
Omnes Omnibus
@Just Some Fuckhead: Hasn’t Clark been out of uniform long enough that he might be a candidate for SecDef?
Gin & Tonic
@Just Some Fuckhead: Groupers are mighty ugly fish anyway.
FlipYrWhig
@Omnes Omnibus: Clark got battered in the media for saying to an incredulous Bob Schieffer that John McCain’s getting shot down over Vietnam didn’t actually give him credibility on national security. But I’ve seen him a few times lately, so maybe he’s trying to come back. JSF, know anything more?
FlipYrWhig
@Gin & Tonic: @Just Some Fuckhead: I figured this place had more snappers than groupers. At least until it started to flounder.
Just Some Fuckhead
@FlipYrWhig: He endorsed HRC prior to BHO so I assume he’s dead to the Obama folks. :)
cat48
Clark has been on CNN a lot lately. He does a good job as a Military Analyst for them.
Uriel
@catclub:Operation Caligula
Uriel
Damnit. I’m sure I did that right. And no edit, to boot.
Gin & Tonic
@FlipYrWhig: Stop carping!
FlipYrWhig
@Gin & Tonic: Sorry. It was a fluke thing.
Joe Beese
Sorry I’m late…
The chief secretary of imperial Japan’s Supreme War Council at the end of World War II, Akira Muto, was hanged for war crimes.
The only difference between him and Gates is that his side lost.
With this testimony, we can be assured of his stepping down before the 4th of July.
And guess what? Obama is going to replace him with another Republican.
I eagerly await the excuses the Obots will contrive for that one.
Gin & Tonic
@FlipYrWhig: That’s OK. It happens to the bass’d of us.
PTirebiter
@Joe Beese:
Funny, Gates doesn’t look Japanese.
Gin & Tonic
@Joe Beese:
The only difference? So Gates was also responsible for the Rape of Nanking?
FlipYrWhig
@Gin & Tonic: Ahi.
Gin & Tonic
@FlipYrWhig: Cod this exchange get any worse?
Joe Beese
Perhaps that adorable little elf Dennis Kucinich is available for SecDef?
joe from Lowell
@Uriel: Caligula means “little boots.”
It was the nickname that the soldiers gave him when he was growing up in a military camp.
Operation Little Boot(s On the Ground).
I think that’s what he meant, anyway.
joe from Lowell
@Omnes Omnibus: Clark has more experience than just about any living American at keeping a messy coalition together during wartime.
@Joe Beese:
And, you know, the mass murder of POWs. It’s quite funny to watch someone of such low moral character as to consider such a thing beneath notice continually assume he occupies the moral high ground.
Joe Bease
I think he really likes gay porn and gladiator movies.
joe from Lowell
I think Obama kept Gates on under the “don’t change horses in mid-stream,” where the stream is the Iraq withdrawal.
Drawing down a war down from a 170,000+ active combat action to a complete withdrawal, without all sorts of disasters cropping up, is a quite a bit tougher than is commonly assumed by people who think it consists of blowing a whistle and yelling “Everyone out of the pool!”
ETA: Don’t forget, Gates wasn’t a Bushie. He was the old Washington hand brought in to replace a Bushie when they were finally forced to face the reality that they were in over their heads, and had to change course in Iraq. He was, literally, brought on for the purpose of competently pulling our bacon out of the fire, and I’ve always thought that he was kept on to finish the job.
joe from Lowell
@Joe Bease: Airplane thread!
“Look, kid, I’ve been hearing that since I was at UCLA!”
Joe Bease
@joe from Lowell: Nah, Obama just couldn’t find any decent Democrat for the job.
Joe Beese
I hope you haven’t forgotten about all the men who died under torture at Guantanamo Bay and Baghram.
Is our body count not “mass” enough to bother prosecuting?
Or does the “War on Terror” not legally count as a war?
Perhaps it doesn’t count as murder when Americans do it because they’re fighting for freedom.
FlipYrWhig
@Gin & Tonic: The puns certainly shifted into turbot.
Just Some Fuckhead
@joe from Lowell:
That is incorrect. Gates is a Bushie. Rumsfeld was a Cheney acolyte.
FlipYrWhig
@Just Some Fuckhead: I thought Gates was identified with the James Baker/Brent Scowcroft wing, so more Bush I than Bush II. (But obviously the cohorts overlap, especially around Cheney, who before the misadventures of Bush II would have been considered a full-fledged member of the Bush I players.)
Gin & Tonic
@FlipYrWhig: From my perch, it looks like you’re not keeping the pace.
AAA Bonds
So, there are armed forces on the ground for us.
They are civilians and not our military.
Does that really make you feel better?
Really?
Think about it.
MarkJ
But we’re supposed to be the world’s Johnny Shrapnelseed. If we ain’t got that, what do we have left?
FlipYrWhig
@Gin & Tonic: Now you’re just playing koi.
Parrotlover77
So wait… Obama is not the same as Bush now? And Libya is not the same as Iraq now? I can’t keep it straight!!
Maybe we should primary/impeach Obama just to be on the safe side. I’m sure he’ll be black again soon.
mclaren
“Not as long as I’m in this job.” Hahahahahaha!
What a bunch of suckers you people are.
Hahahahahahahahaha!
Gates has already announced he’s resigning within a year.
The only reason America gives a flying fuck about Libya is: OIL.
All that crap about “humanitarian concerns”? Garbage. When half a million people were slaughtred with machetes in Rwanda, no one in America lifted a finger. Why? Because Rwanda has no oil.
When women were having their hands and feet chopped off and then getting gang-raped in Darfur, did America send even one soldier to help? Of course not, Darfur has no oil.
It’s all about OIL, folks. OIL. OIL. OIL.
Neither Gates nor anyone else in the White House gives a shit about the innocent people getting killed in Libya, they just want to control Libya’s OIL.