Tyler Cowen via the Tory table pounder:
The more the Democrats criticize this plan, the more it helps Ryan and the more it hurts the Democrats. It reframes sticker shock, and the entire debate, simply to argue about $6 trillion in budget cuts.
A lot of the political strategizing I’m hearing from DC commentators assumes that the occupants of flyover country are sitting in their trailers obsessing over the deficit. Perhaps that’s true, but even if they are, the working class regular Americans that I know don’t think that Medicare or Social Security has much to do with the rest of the government budget, for the simple reason that their payroll stub lists FICA and witholding on different lines. And, in their minds, any attempt to cut those programs is essentially theft — it’s politicians stealing their retirement savings in order to deal with the rest of the budget.
Defending Medicare from Republicans is bread-and-butter, meat-and-potatoes, apple pie politics, and even a group of useless pants shitters like our current crop of Democrats have the ability to campaign against cutting Medicare. Maybe the “lock box” wasn’t the worlds greatest political metaphor, but it tied into a real belief about how those programs are financed, and that belief is far stronger than whatever Paul Ryan is peddling this week.
If you walked into the living room of any trailer court in the country and ask if you should cut Medicare to finance the rest of the budget, you’ll get a “No”. If you throw in a bit of talk about the size of bonuses bankers are getting because of the taxpayer-funded bailout, you’ll get a “Fuck No”. Anyone who doesn’t understand that hasn’t canvassed a trailer court, or lived in one. I’ve done both, and I’m here to tell you the politics of this are dirt simple.
"Serious" Superluminar
*The View From Sully’s Ass*
Readers have until noon today to guess who dropped this turd of a post:
thomas Levenson
I believe that’s all you need to hear from Cowen (or that Beastly Sully).
If they don’t get the notion that telling folks that 6 freaking trillion dollars are coming out of their hides to buy David Koch another state is not exactly a winner, then they have truly done too much toad.
Gin & Tonic
Would it be too much to ask for a couple of FP posts per day that aren’t about Andrew Fucking Sullivan?
thomas Levenson
@Gin & Tonic: Heh. I got one in draft that I may or may not kill. Mercy (to the commentariat here) suggests I should. Train-wreck rubbernecking dictates otherwise.
What to do?
Cat Lady
@Gin & Tonic:
Yes, oh yes, please, this. WTF?
MattF
Cowen is expert and authoritative when it comes to ethnic restaurants in Northern Virginia, and we should all be grateful for his diligent research in that area. He is also deeply informed and pretty good, for a conservative, on economics.
But… his opinions on other subjects (music, literature, politics, applicability of libertarian economic principles to riding escalators) are really just opinions. No, really.
kdaug
Then ask ’em if we should raise taxes on the millionares and billionares on Wall Street.
NobodySpecial
Most Americans in what is called ‘flyover country’ don’t give two shits and a fuck about the deficit. The deficit is a big thing that they never see.
What they see is fewer people with jobs and the jobs they have not making ends meet. They see spiraling prices and shitty lives that get shittier every day. The biggest problem with motivating them is the apathy that surrounds their lives. They see the super rich getting richer and it will always be that way. They see themselves getting poorer and it will always be that way. They see politicians doing dick all about it and it will always be that way.
mistermix
@Gin & Tonic: If I really got into the spirit of this place, your comment would spark 5 more “Andrew Sullivan is wrong” posts.
stuckinred
@Gin & Tonic: No shit, who gives a fuck? god, it’s as bad as Hamsher.
Rosalita
@Gin & Tonic:
Well John tweeted that someone should kick him in the junk twice if he points a browser at Sully again… so I’m guessing we all need a break
Just Some Fuckhead
Yeah, now that Sully is mainstreaming the privatization of Medicare, we should all ignore him.
Rommie
If guy who could barely walk FDR got handed this plan from his opposition, he’d kick them in the gubbins so many times that he’d win a 50-yard dash after he was done.
It really is Dirt Simple.
Joe Beese
There are all kinds of “Hello? Duh?” politically advantageous things the Democrats could do. Getting the fuck out of Afghanistan, raising taxes on the rich, prosecuting the banksters, etc.
There is also a “Hello? Duh?” reason that they don’t do it – which partisans like Mr. Cowen will fight tooth-and-nail to deny admittance to their consciousness. The reason is that the Democrats like war, plutocracy, and banksters.
geg6
@NobodySpecial:
Yes.
I consider it my personal mission to make the sadly and ignorantly blind citizens in my part of the world actually think out loud the logic and reality of their/our situation and hope that a few interactions like that and a lot more WI-like behavior can make a difference in their lives. I see small, flickering flames of it now and again, lately, to my grateful and cautious delight. Just happened recently with an older couple at the local VFW (what could be more real merkin?) who are not enamored of any GOP ideas about cutting education (wife has daughter who is a teacher), bashing unions (husband and wife are both retired union members), or cutting Social Security or Medicare (which they both enjoy currently) for themselves or anyone else. And they don’t like banks or billionaires much either.
Six months ago, I know for sure that this couple was Teabagger-leaning. But the actions of the GOP and some subtle and patient coaching through discussion of current events can help some people see the light. Even in flyover country and even with Real Merkins.
danimal
Shhhhhhhhhh, Mrmix. Let’s get ’em all on record before walloping them.
They’re so insular that they don’t realize how devastating this will be for the GOP. Let them start the spin machine, I think disgust with the Ryan budget will even overcome the Wurlitzer this time.
DecidedFenceSitter
@mistermix: Sadly, that was what I was expecting. “Okay, we’ll stop posting about Sully.”
And then two days of 12+ posts about Sullivan in addition to the aggressive posting schedule.
cleek
i have no idea why the first sentence should be true; and i can barely parse the second sentence.
if he’s saying, like Sully keeps saying, that simply by putting this stuff “on the table”, that it will make people realize the magnitude of the problem, then i can only reply: bullshit. the country proved last year, when they avoided learning what letting the Bush tax cuts expire would mean, that they have no interest in knowing how the budget works, what a “deficit” means, how taxes are related to it, where spending goes, etc.. people don’t give a fuck about the details – they simply want to know who can say the things that conform the best to what they like to think they should believe.
Winston Smith
I just came from breakfast here in flyover country (Springfield, MO). There were some older guys going on about politics using all the Fox-approved phrases:
“We’re broke.”
“It’s about the $6 trillion.”
“I say if Obama won’t accept $60 billion in cuts, then they ask for $90 billion.”
I don’t think these were working-class guys, though.
Stillwater
@Just Some Fuckhead: now that Sully is mainstreaming the privatization of Medicare, we should all ignore him.
lulz.
NobodySpecial
@geg6: Yeah, well, your tiny victories are more than offset by the red/purple state Dems who bend over for every Republican attack and go on TV and treat these GOP morons as human beings and act like their ideas have any merit at all.
eemom
Serious Super: I have gleaned that you are yourself a Brit, amirite?
If so, can you do something about this creature? Reverse-extradite him or something? Cuz really, we got more than our share of blithering assholes over here — it just ain’t FAIR for y’all to foist him off on us.
‘Sides, y’all over there are better qualified to annihilate him with your dry British wit.
kthxbai
JCT
I have to add my voice to the NO MORE SULLY votes. C’mon, I don’t fucking care if he somehow was “thoughtful” at one point in his life (and I am not so sure of when that actually was) — right now he is not much better than one of these loser teabaggers sans the loony getup. Why the hell should I care what he says or “thinks” if he is not adding to thoughtful discourse at a time when it is desperately needed.
And mistermix — while I agree about the opinions of your flyover trailer park folks, you forgot two important questions. 1) Did you vote? and 2) Who for? And I have a strong feeling neither of those answers would fit with their best interests.
numbskull
Do you know how complex dirt is?
Just Some Fuckhead
@Winston Smith:
How do they feel about blowing trillions of dollars on elective war? Not too broke for that?
eemom
@NobodySpecial:
she ain’t gonna like that.
Punchy
Trump has decided to go Full On BeckBachmannPalinNewt with his schtick. Honestly, read the article. He literally — using that word literally — blames everything on Obama. What a worthless shitbag of epic fail.
chopper
that’s a lot of concern.
zzyzx
This isn’t the time to ignore Sullivan. He’s a powerful voice (believe it or not) who is helping to promote the destruction of the safety net. He deserves to be attacked and mocked until he retracts.
Walker
This, this, a thousand times this.
And Tyler Cowen is a notorious hack. Why do we care about what he says?
piratedan
well gee whiz guys… if you’re gonna toss one over the plate like that…. here’s a couple of ideas….
1) move Sully over to the Mock section – we’d all sit back and give you a golf clap for that
2) find us another site to add to the blogroll for grins who tells it like it is, I would suggest this guy:
http://www.stonekettle.com/
3) Mine the states for new outrage, here’s what’s happening in mine:
http://www.blogforarizona.com/blog/2011/04/gov-jan-brewer-and-shadow-governor-chuck-coughlin-ensared-in-fiesta-bowl-scandal.html
4) speculate on which turd will be polished to follow in the hallowed footsteps of Glen Beck over @ Faux News
5) Perhaps a thought on TRMS and her fight with the folks over at the Dept of the Interior regarding the issuance of additional offshore billing permits in light of their own internal documentation that the blowout preventors will fail roughly 45% of the time when there is a blow out.
OzoneR
@NobodySpecial:
which Christian white men come to their churches and blame erroneously on the deficit and everyone believes it
Chris
@Winston Smith:
I’ll just bet they’re the kind of people who consider themselves working-class salt-of-the-earth backbones of Real America, though, and will be promoted on Fox as such. Kind of like Joe the Plumber was supposed to be barely scraping by on a $250,000 salary.
Bullsmith
I can understand how they get away with saying “the government is on fire, we have to
kill meddicareemploy the magic of the free market to save medicare.”But how can they spend trillions on massive new tax cuts for the rich and corporations and still pretend to be deficit-fighting? The medicare part of Ryan’s plan is awful, but it’s the tax cuts that are truly bizarre. Surely even tea-party supporters aren’t in favor of trillions in new tax breaks for the rich? I know they’re duped into thinking they’re supporing a populist movement, but doesn’t the massive tax cut sort of give the game away?
Chris
@OzoneR:
Yep. And you’re an elitist for pointing out that they’re wrong, and you’re uppity for pointing out that the blacks, Hispanics and others are getting screwed just as badly as they are so maybe they should lay off them a bit.
Cacti
Again, here’s all the framing this debate needs…
“Do you want to lose your Medicare so the rich can have a huge tax cut?”
Elia Isquire
So sick of being implicitly asked by Serious Progressives to pretend Tyler Cowen isn’t a run-of-the-mill boring libertarian airhead.
Chris
@Bullsmith:
Because if you cut taxes just a little more, the rich will employ everyone and then we’ll have more tax revenue from that. Alternatively, the government isn’t entitled to any taxes at all, so it doesn’t matter if their revenue’s messed up, they should just cut even more.
The majority of the country doesn’t buy it, but the majority of Republicans definitely do, and the moderate wing basically doesn’t exist anymore.
susan
Shorter Andrew Sullivan, “I would write more about this excellent idea of screwing the poor to benefit the rich, but I am late to Mass.”
Andy deeply loves his Jeebus!
Davis X. Machina
In the popular imagination, since Nixon, “deficit” is short for “The economy sucks”.
Nostrums — should be nostra, but there you go — designed to address the deficit are presumed to fix the economy, and are therefore a good thing.
This spurious identity — deficit correction = economic improvement — is spurious, but that doesn’t keep it from working when it’s time to sell the rubes their own nooses.
I know this. You know this. The problem is the guy next to you doesn’t, and the people who own the world do.
OzoneR
@Cacti:
Often they’ll tell you “stop lying to us you nasty liberal!”
Jason
I’m always, again, still amazed at the discussion they’re promoting. It’s only about the discussion itself. They’ve absolutely conceded on the policy before the policy (CBO scores, whatever) is even discussed.
Whatever people in “flyover country” think about the merits of deficit reduction, what the hell do they care about the merits of a “serious discussion?” There’s a link above that points to a Today Show story about Donald Trump “turning up the heat on the Obama administration” with birther claims. This is a television show that was on not an hour ago in YMCAs, diners, meeting rooms, waiting rooms, living rooms, and so on, all over the nation. What the hell could the merits of substantive discussion for substantive discussion’s sake be, in the current media climate? They can only be talking to themselves and what small subset of the upper middle class remains to care.
It’s like they got a Reader’s Digest version of Lakoff and said “wow, ‘serious’ is a metaphor that fits my utter lack of humor. Let’s use that.”
Dennis SGMM
The budget imbroglio is another instance where the Democrats have been either incompetent or complicit. Note how the debate has shifted from “jobs” to “austerity”. The fact that the sudden need for austerity is a result of Republican policies and practices goes overlooked. The fact that putting Americans back to work would enhance government revenue is also overlooked.
The Republicans have once again called the tune. Dance, Democrats! Dance!
OzoneR
@Chris:
Rudy Giuliani went on TV a month or so ago and said we need to give bigger bonuses to Wall Street execs because bigger bonuses will help the poor. A very education friend of mine, who has a freakin’ Masters degree, agreed. I asked why that makes sense, and this douchebag told me “Well because that means they’ll pay more in taxes” to which I responded “but you keep cutting them!” and he told me “I don’t want to argue” and disappeared.
Winston Smith
@Just Some Fuckhead:
I suppose you would have waited until Saddam Hussein unleashed his massive nuclear arsenal on Chicago?! Wait, no, Saddam was a bad guy! He gassed the same people Churchill gassed in the 1920’s, and we all know how evil Winston Churchill was! Oh wait, no… Obama hates the British because he urinated on a bust of Churchill and replaced it with a velvet painting of Malcolm X.
Socialism!
OzoneR
@Dennis SGMM:
the debate never left austerity and it never will
Actually it’s not, they talk about that all the time, it’s just too many think cutting taxes and spending will put people back to work.
The problem isn’t that we’ve moved from “jobs” to “austerity,” the problem is it’s universally excepted that the two aren’t mutually exclusive. The Democrats are forced to play in that reality
cleek
@Bullsmith:
step 1 (1980s): teach the world about the magical trickle-down faeries. lower taxes to please them.
step 2 (1990s): convince people that Professor Laffer proved that lower-taxes magically generates more revenue, always.
step 3 (2000s): lower taxes to appease Professor Laffer’s Magical Curve.
step 4 (2010s): use current crisis to double-down on the efforts of the 80s and 90s using the now widespread belief in magical economics.
The Political Nihilist Formerly Known As Kryptik
@Dennis SGMM:
Which is why the insistence here that “oh, people in flyover country really don’t care about the deficit!” just wants me to tear my hair out. Not only the undeserved faith in the inherent rationality of people on this issue (which, time and time again, has proven so false as to kick us in the teeth over and over again), but the fact that, as far as I remember, polls have shown people to definitely have an inordinate amount of worry over the deficit, precisely because the Republicans have boogeymanned it into THE singlemost reason for the sour economy.
And the fact that the Dems are doubling down on deficit cutting as well shows that they’ve bought into it enough or just are too weak to push back against the narrative to cede the argument to the GOP once again. We’re having an argument over ‘how much should we cut to curb the deficit (and heal the economy’ when the real argument is ‘Should we be worried about cutting deficit or renewing the job market and economy first’. But instead, it’s all about cuts, because Dems never push back against the fucking GOP frames, they always cede theme and work within them, and by that measure, the GOP always wins the fucking argument before the argument even happens.
@OzoneR:
It feels more like they’ve chosen to play in that reality. I mean, even with the way our entire fucking media is tilted, how much significant pushback of the austerity bug and the cutting frenzy have you really seen?
ppcli
@susan:
Yep. According to Andy, the sermon on the mount was a great speech, but it was taken out of context.
“Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth/ and that’s why we’ve got to make sure we extract every damn ounce of oil, coal, precious metals, rare earth metals and unobtainium before those lazy moochers get their hands on it.”
General Stuck
Some of you all could do with some Prozac.
Ivan Ivanovich Renko
@NobodySpecial: Worse, they’re told- and they’ve internalized– that it’s their own fault for being lazy useless fucks who won’t work.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Fixed.
OzoneR
@The Political Nihilist Formerly Known As Kryptik:
As someone who grew up in flyover country in the Reagan era, what makes the Dems weak is a significant number of Dem VOTERS believe in austerity. Mondale, Hart, and Democrats of the 80s made a gallant effort in my home region to fight back in the 80s and saw themselves tossed from power by Reagan-loving lunatics, sometimes even in primaries. The problem with this argument is Democrats offer you hard choices “you want jobs or a big deficit?” Republicans offer you the moon “you can have both, really!”
Americans don’t like to sacrifice. Republicans offer the cake and the fork to eat it too and Americans want to believe they’re right no matter how much evidence proves otherwise. It really doesn’t matter how much Democrats try to fight back, it goes nowhere. Many of our leaders come from that reality and saw what happened in their counties, towns, state legislative races.
The only way Democrats are going to win debates from here on in is to dilute white people enough to get back on the backs of minorities and young voters.
Svensker
@Bullsmith:
Letting people keep their own money is a good thing, any way it is done. Then those productive members of society will create things with that money, thus providing jobs to the folks who are not as creative and productive but are still good hard working people.
/Tea-bagger 101
OzoneR
@The Political Nihilist Formerly Known As Kryptik:
Where I come from; Southern Indiana, a lot, but the people who do push back never win elections and thus aren’t paid attention to.
The ones who don’t push back and triangulate are the ones who win.
In order to successfully push back, people’s minds have got to be changed. That’s not possible in this country right now.
I mean, hell, when I moved to Brooklyn and started hanging out with real progressives, they refused to even believe there weren’t many real progressives in Madison, Indiana, even though I grew up there and they’ve never been.
Everyone’s minds are made up, and that makes it impossible to push back against accepted realities.
dadanarchist
And here is the Progressive Caucus’ alternative budget:
http://www.sfexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2011/04/house-progressives-release-liberal-alternative-ryan-budget-plan
Let’s see if Sully gives it any play or simply dismisses it out of hand as “unserious.”
jibeaux
That’s very serious…ly wishful thinking.
Low-information politics 101: I like spending on things what benefit me. I plan on making it to 65, at which point I will have probably spent four full decades plus paying with every paycheck I have ever earned into Medicare and Social Security. Cutting Medicare & Social Security = bad. See also, every poll ever taken. I don’t like spending on OTHER, non-me, people. This is why the 25% we spend on foreign aid and PBS and strapping young bucks with food stamps is wasteful.
I don’t have a PhD in economics, but I have talked to human beings before.
BC
One thing the Dems have internalized – economic populism from the left is “class warfare” and they cringe if they are accused of engaging in “class warfare.” Well, the war is out in the open now and the Dems have to choose a side.
Nathanlindquist
Mistermix,
You do realize Medicare spending has to go down right? We can’t just ignore the problem. Raise taxes on the rich, create efficiencies in the system, negotiate for drug prices so that the cuts are as minimal as possible. Then we can go to the trailer park and say Democrats are getting you a way better deal than the GOP. But I don’t really want to be the party that simply panders to the ignorance of Americans, which is ample.
If your answer to this is: we need to focus on jobs, not the deficit! then you are presuming economic growth CAN come back. I am more pessimistic than that, we have huge structural problems with debt, energy, and demographics. The economy will suck, tax revenues will lag, and we will have huge deficits that cannot be ignored.
JCT
@General Stuck: Actually as I read this I keep hearing the “Always look on the bright side of life” bit from Monty Python’s “Life of Brian”. But that’s just me.
RosiesDad
One more vote for NO MORE SULLY. Not for at least a few days or weeks.
The Political Nihilist Formerly Known As Kryptik
@OzoneR:
@OzoneR:
So pretty much Cowen is correct then? That unless Dems basically play by the GOPs rules no matter what, and never push back, we can never win period, and simply by playing by their rules we continue to aid the GOP by enabling their batshitness?
Well thanks, I needed a reason to drink this morning.
Chris
@OzoneR:
I forget who and where, on a BJ thread a couple months ago, said something like “America is a center-left country in terms of policy, but a center-right country in terms of electoral politics.” As you said, people want to believe the feel-good bullshit Republicans feed them (and not just on economics – other things like “we’re the greatest country on Earth and only a traitor would disagree with that.”)
Remember Dukakis saying “I’ll raise your taxes: so will my opponent. I’ll tell you about it: he won’t.” And he was proven completely right, and the American people took it out on Bush at the next election cycle, but as with countless other people who spoke an inconvenient truth to the electorate, he was never vindicated.
NonyNony
@Bullsmith:
Ha! You think the Tea Partiers are bing “duped into thinking they’re supporting a populist movement”? A few of them, perhaps.
Most of them are part of the “I’ve got mine so FUCK YOU” movement, not any kind of “populism” per se. They’re upset about the fact that other people are getting a benefit that they might or might not be getting.
Many of them are also a part of the “OMG THERE’S A BLACK MAN IN THE OVAL OFFICE MOVEMENT”. Who don’t really care what’s going on right now, they just know that the black guy in the oval office is for it, so they’re against it.
They also are a bunch of authority-worshipping know-nothings. Most of them would be monarchists if we had a king – they’d be the kinds of people who in a 21st century parliamentary-style monarchy would be agitating to put the king back on the throne. The kinds of people that tried to force Juan Carlos to take the throne of Spain after Franco died rather than having a democracy.
So there’s not even a cognitive dissonance problem here – corporate masters are legitimate, aristocratic authority. Any Democratic president – but especially a black Democratic president whose mother was white – is an illegitimate usurper. The language of populism they use is just a thing to wrap themselves in – much like their patriotism and their Christianity. Tribal markers, not actual beliefs as such.
different church-lady
[tries to imagine David Brooks living in a trailer park]
[tries to imagine David Brooks even setting foot in a trailer park]
[head implodes]
ppcli
@Nathanlindquist: “I don’t really want to be the party that simply panders to the ignorance of Americans, which is ample.”
If that’s the Democrats’ strategy they are finished, since there is simply no way they can beat the Republicans on that ground. Might as well go head-to-head with Tom Brady in the supermodel-dating event, or challenge Charlie Sheen to a drug-addled craziness contest. Remember that the Republicans are the party that about 6 months ago won control of the House, and dumped incumbents like Finegold, partly on the platform of “The Democrat Party is cutting x dollars from Medicare!!!!”. Now those same people are getting orgasmic over a plan to scrap the whole Medicare program to fund a %10 tax cut for top earners. And nobody is even raising an eyebrow about it. We’ve always been at war with Eastasia.
OK, you expect lies from politicians. You expect people to have short memories. But this is just mind-numbing.
Chris
@NonyNony:
Well bloody put. Pretty crucial distinction there.
sukabi
mistermix… your blockquote, is a classic example of what the righttards do, it’s called “framing”… they are setting the “talking points” for their friends in the media, who are more than willing to use this line of “argument” to “shape” the discussion.
It’s an attempt to make the Dem’s argue in a defensive posture from this ONE angle… and unfortunately the D’s have been more than willing to play this tired game over and over and over and over… and we lose ground every. single. time.
what the D’s should be doing is calling out their bullshit and argue the case on it’s merits, and what impact the R’s alt plan will have the economy and the working class. and they should be calling out the asshats that happily pull these types of talking points out.
different church-lady
@sukabi:
In other words, it’s the latest version of “This is good news for John McCain.”
General Stuck
FWIW, here is my take on the state of affairs for this current budget battle going on. Earlier this morn, I heard Harry Reid tell reporters that he is far more pessimistic now than he was last night. Even though both sides are very close on the total amount of spending cuts, I think around the 30 to 40 bill mark. But that the GOP won’t agree, because dems insist on leaving out real and imagined liberal icons like NPR, Planned Parenthood, etc..;. that wingnuts and their master tea tards insist on destroying.
And 30 to 40 bill is but a drop in the bucket of overall federal spending, and of course, is not what this is about in the first place. It is about gutting PP and the other liberal entities receiving federal monies, or pure ideology.
Just a little while ago on MSNBC, Chris Jansing (who I adore, btw) had Jim Gilmore on, former gooper governor of VA, and pinned his ears back about why won’t the House wingnuts make an agreement if the amount is the same for both sides, and didn’t what Harry Reid make sense that this was about ideology, not gooper concern about the budget, which they don’t care about right now. He stuttered and stammered and she kept badgering him, and finally just cut him off for not answering the question.
I know a lot of liberals don’t want dems and Obama to give an inch, ever, to the wingnuts. But the reality is that government spending and some effort to reduce it is a very important issue for our swing voters , who recently have been deciding elections in this country.
So to me, what has happened is, Obama and Reid have backed Boehner into a corner by going along with some small cuts relative to the total fed budget, but not to the most vital social services, with some compromise there, like with LHEAP, but basically not giving in to the tea tard jihad to gut liberal programs. And cornering House wingers either into shutting down the government, basically for political reasons, where the GOP will almost certainly receive most of the blame. You can read it like you want.
Legalize
Unfortunately, on issues like this, Sully can’t be ignored. He’s got a voice and people listen to him. He, like Ryan, needs to be roundly ridiculed.
JCT
@General Stuck:
I hope you are right, Stuck. But those psychotic culture-warrior “riders” are my personal line in the sand. If the Dems rollover on them I will give up all hope.
Librarian
The Cowen quote is the latest version of Halperin saying that the issue of McCain’s houses was bad news for Democrats.
General Stuck
@JCT:
It would be a big blow to my confidence in dems, but this is a battle over a budget, not appropriations, and only for a few months. Dems letting PP get gutted would be near pol suicide for them, and they have fought many many attempts by the wingers to destroy public radio and teevee in toto, over the decades, and taken it to the last mile to save them. It wouldn’t be selling out medicare, but not all that far from it. They won’t do it, because they know sensible libs like you would be lost to them.
Corner Stone
@The Political Nihilist Formerly Known As Kryptik: Does:
“Nothing can be done!”
Sound familiar? It should.
OzoneR
@The Political Nihilist Formerly Known As Kryptik:
in the short term, yes, the rules of the game are set. We only get to change them when we win, and by winning I don’t necessarily mean just elections, that’s only one.
OzoneR
@Chris:
Mondale said that, but your point stands.
Another interesting story…when Geraldine Ferraro was running for VP, she visited a factory in Illinois full of union workers where she told them she and Mondale would protect them from Reagan’s union busting, to which the workers responded “that’s nice, but we’re voting Reagan because we don’t want to look weak in front of the Russians”
soooo.
Elliecat
@geg6:
But that’s not big and loud and sexy and revolutionary and totally changing people’s minds to think the RIGHT WAY RIGHT NOW!!!!!
And it’s the only way I can see for us to achieve true change. How many of us change our minds about something or see the truth because someone screams at us “YOU F*CKING MORON! GET A CLUE!” or sits around hoping we will “educate ourselves” on the issues.
I think the most constructive thing progressives etc. can do is to get involved in their communities. Not just politically but socially. get involved in something that is not made up solely of people in your age group, socio-economic class, political leaning, religion (or lack of), etc. Get to know your neighbors. Get to know a wide range of people in your community. Then you can have conversations. And I don’t mean political prosyletizing (sic) or arguments but patiently, mildly addressing issues as they come up. You can also learn their concerns, which might be things not at all important to you but which seem hugely important to them.
If we are familiar to people, they will be more likely to accept our countering their bad or lack of information with good information, especially if instead of telling them they are WRONG to believe liars, gently pointing out how the good information makes more sense when they look around at the world they live in.
Not to mention, we put a face on progressives/liberals/etc., for them. If we are pleasant, reasonable, kind people who are their neighbors and share their community and concerns, who work and volunteer and so on, etc., it’s harder for them to accept the demonized view they get from cable “news” shows.
Yes, it’s a slow, slow process and probably boring as hell for you young folks but I think it’s the only way to change people’s minds.
mds
@Cacti:
This is exactly Cowen’s point. Criticizing Ryan’s plan for effectively destroying Medicare and Medicaid, raising taxes on the bottom 90% while cutting them further for the top 10%, repealing the ACA, and giving us a deficit ten years out that’s larger than the one from Obama’s budget, just helps Ryan become even more wildly popular with the electorate, while Dems get relegated to Poopyhead Corner.
I’m not going to dignify Marginal Mercatus Kochsucker in Chief with link traffic. Could someone braver than I summarize? If Democrats shouldn’t criticize Ryan’s sadistic Randian fantasy, what should they be doing? Accepting it in its entirety?
sukabi
@mds: it’s been my observation that when your “opponent” tells you to not do something because it will only hurt your cause… what he’s telling you is that you’re hurting HIM… if you’re gullible enough to listen to advice from your opponent you’re an idiot… when they start telling you to not do something, that’s the time you need to amp up the volume.
jcricket
@Cacti:
Simpler and more effective.
Republicans are trying to kill Medicare, so grandma will be poor and broke and dying in the street.
Republicans are trying to kill Medicaid and food stamps, so poor kids will starve to death.
(much lower down the list): Republicans want to repeal healthcare reform, throwing 30 million people off health insurance, making it legal again for insurance companies to deny you coverage on pre-existing conditions, etc.
Americans don’t care about and don’t understand the deficit, and “tax cuts” somehow sound good to them, diluting the message.
Once we win, we can just raise taxes on the rich (ha) and ignore all the naysayers. But for now, let’s keep it simple.
TimmyB
Hopefully, you are correct. But from what I’ve seen so far from Obama and the Democrats, their policy has been “war abroad & surrender at home.”
William B.McCullough Sr.
I think that everything that has been written here is the truth.I am 71 and to say take away Medicare would be very stupid for me.I had a seperate pension from social security I have a good retirement and I collect about 250$ from SS.I have lived in a Trailer and a brick home and in a fly over state.I know what life is and I know what a smooth talking idiot like our President has up his sleve.And I say no to him in 2012
different church-lady
@Elliecat:
Act locally, ridicule nationally.
What I mean is: you’ve hit the nail on the head as far as personal involvement. But we still need to undermine the “authority” of people like Sullivan and Brooks. And the best way to do that is to actually say, “They’re nitwits,” and only explain why after you say the key first part.
Because by the time your neighbor goes back in the house and sits in front of the TV he’s forgotten all about you and is listening to the polemicist screaming above the chyron.