“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
General Stuck
yea, but Jesus didn’t carry American Express to pay for his shit, even to get a frickin haircut. Jeebus Jesus.
Jay C
G*ddamn hippie weirdo……
Maude
@General Stuck:
Cause he carried Mastercard.
Edit, at least the Religious Right isn’t as powerful as it was with Raygun.
robertdsc-PowerBook
Anything from the Quran?
MikeJ
Somehow all the wingers remember is “The poor will always be with you”, and they add on, “so fuck ’em.”
ruemara
@Maude:
AmEx & Mastercard are not in the New Testament, but these verses most assuredly are. If Republicans had any real christian faith, they would be the most liberal pacifists ever.
cermet
Show me any amerikan that claims to be a Christian, and I’ll show you a hypocrite.
Linda Featheringill
@Maude:
The 25th chapter of Matthew.
Loneoak
When Jesus said this he was talking to the Jews, not a class-warring, Niebhur-worshipping Brit who was a little too fat when as a child. So, whatevs.
General Stuck
@robertdsc-PowerBook:
There is a great quote from the Quran on this topic. If I remember right. “It is easier to pass a budget than pass a wingnut through a camels nose” it’s right before all that infidels must die nonsense.
Arclite
Damn, Doug J, I LOVE it when you go all biblical on the right. I honestly have no idea how they coopted the religious wing.
Maude
@ruemara:
I realized the mistake. I did an edit and forgot to say that, sorry.
Joseph Nobles
I grew up believing that you could not be a Republican and a Christian because of verses like this one.
What did Jesus say about taxes? “Render unto Caesar the things that are Caeser’s, and to God the things that are God’s. Unless the Romans fund things you’re morally opposed to, then you don’t have to pay.” Sorry, made that last sentence up.
Jim, Once
@MikeJ: Exactly. This is what my born-again sister-in-law said when I quoted this passage. She also said she would never give to the poor, because ‘everyone knows’ the poor deserve what they get.
JAHILL10
Stephen Colbert does some righteous Bible quoting too. It always seems to be the parts of the New Testament the wingers forget in their rush to get to Rand’s Galtian utopia. That’s the thing though, today’s fundamentalist Xtians have more in common with the intolerant wing of Islam than they are willing to admit. It’s all Old Testament tribalism and thunderous commandments and condemnation. Nothing about charity, compassion and love.
Bob Loblaw
@Arclite:
Calvinism.
Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen
Not so fast. He rebukes those on his LEFT and gives the RIGHTeous eternal life. Ergo and QED, the DFHs are gonna burn in Hell.
Also, why do you think they’re called WINGnuts. Angels in waiting I tells ya.
Will Reks
Yeah, but at least we know where Jesus was born.
MikeJ
@Jim, Once: Sadly, I wouldn’t know the attitude if I hadn’t actually heard “Christians” quoting that verse at me.
General Stuck
@Will Reks:
Hawaii?
Joseph Nobles
@Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen: Yes, but when you’re walking up to Jesus’ throne, in order to get on his right side, you have to move to your left.
jl
@Loneoak:
I hate to be all serious and party poopery, but actually this bit
“When Jesus said this he was talking to the Jews,”
is part of the problem.
Most of the new Xtianists, or at least the ones who have any familiarity with the Bible and religious thought at all (which excludes almost all of the fraudulently pious pundits you see on the TV), do not see a problem here.
In their Xtianist view, Jesus’ preaching on earth has nothing to do with us. Jesus was talking to the Jews, and the Jews rejected the deal.
So God said “OK, dudes, you are still chosen, so I will make a new deal, and give you another chance to believe, before you burn burn burn in hell, like, forev. So the Jesus peace and love stuff is out, Christ is in.”
So Jesus went to heaven and became the Living Christ. Christ, not Jesus will come back to earth for Armageddon, and it will be the KickAss Take No Prisoners Christ who will sort out the sheep and the goats, the living and the dead.
In the Xtianist view, Commie DougJ, my friend, you are endangering your immortal soul be taking that Jesus talk on earth seriously. And an Xtianist would either harangue you, pray for you, or damn damn damn you for being evil.
Xtianists can utter the words ‘Kill [fill in the blank] for Christ” and be making perfect sense in their strange religious world, where the Bible is the sole truth, as interpreted in a very complicated but (perhaps) internally consistent way if go by King James version.
So, I am worried about you dude, with your misguided quoting of the Gospels. You’re risking hellfire forever, my friend.
4tehlulz
Jesus disses his liberal base. We need to get behind someone more pure and devoted to the cause.
Linda Featheringill
@General Stuck:
The Quran:
LOL.
Honestly, General, I have read the Quran [in English] and I don’t remember that quote. Must be Alzheimer’s kicking in.
Cute, though. :-)
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
to be fair, jesus never had to cover his short positions in a bear rally.
Loneoak
@Bob Loblaw:
It is important to remember how fucked in the head Calvinism is.
I think I would rather be a Southern Baptist than a Christian Reformed; at least there is some pretense of compassion on occasion.
Linda Featheringill
@JAHILL10:
American Taliban.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@4tehlulz:
party trinity my ass!
demz taters
Now if Jesus only used the Bully Pulpit…
licensed to kill time
@4tehlulz: Let’s primary Him!
soonergrunt
@Linda Featheringill: There is no functional difference. Keeping people poor and ignorant and pissed off at the world by keeping the women and girls barefoot and pregnant and keeping everybody undereducated is a feature, not a bug.
jl
@Loneoak:
Calvinism can be pretty messed up, especially conservative dogmatic Calvinism. The reactionary Xtianism among US cultural conservatives that we see now developed as a debauched offshoot of Calvinism in England and the US in the nineteenth century and is even more messed up.
Even Calvin would throw up his hands and run as fast as he could away from it in horror. Or denounce it as a heresy. And if you know anything about Calvin, that is a difficult thing feat, to be even weirder and more fantastic, legalistic and strained.
Of course, the Jesus on earth had some mean things to day about legalistic thinking in religion, but as we all know, anything he said to those Jews back then doesn’t mean squat for us now.
Quarks
@Will Reks: Oh, come on. You know he never produced an actual birth certificate. Just some verses in some things called Gospels. And you’re going to trust them?
MikeJ
@4tehlulz: You jest, but he really was purer than thou, or Him. Something that private fundegelical school didn’t explain to me nearly as well as Jesus Christ, Superstar did. To them it was just “Judas bad”, and no explaining why he might have done anything.
I do have to thank them for keeping me from becoming one of them. If saner people had tried the religion stuff on me as a kid I might have bought it.
General Stuck
@MikeJ:
As a kid growing up in Baptist land, I got dunked in about every river within miles of where we lived to keep the devil away. One day it dawned on me, that these crazy motherfuckers were going to drown me someday, and I had never met the devil, so I had no problem rejecting their organized religion. I made up my own after that.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@robertdsc-PowerBook:
Actually Issa says the same thing in the Generous Quran. He is one of the twenty-five named quranic prophets.
;)
opie: please note i am Not Proselytizing– I can’t actually proselytize christians because we all worship the same god.
Mark S.
@Joseph Nobles:
What I always thought was brilliant was that it means whatever you want it to. It can mean pay your taxes, but if you’re a zealot who believes the Romans are trespassing on the Promised Land, it can also mean you don’t have to give them shit.
Ana Gama
Clearly, Jesus was born in Kenya. Where’s his birth certificate?
Parallel 5ths (Jewish Steel)
@licensed to kill time: Too late. We already did.
Mark B
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, …”
This is as far as the righties need to read.
gex
@Maude: Um, I don’t think gay people would agree… Constitutional Amendments and all. Hundreds of millions of dollars each campaign cycle, always defeating gay marriage when it goes to referendum.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
Wait a minute…That isn’t in my Prosperity Gospel!
gex
@cermet: I know one. A real good one. Been friends with her since I was 5. I know she’s a Christian, but it is never talked about. All I see is how her faith is expressed through the person she’s trying to be. If everyone did it like that, I’d be a big fan.
John O
I think this is a beautiful post.
honus
@Mark S.: no, wrong flatass wrong. No margin for error.
Jesus was asked if you should pay your taxes, asked for a coin, saw Ceaser’s face on the coin, and said “pay your taxes.”
Just like he rejected the Second Amendment when he refused to allow Peter to defend him with his sword in the Garden of Gethsemane. “Put away your sword. He that lives by the sword dies by the sword.”
Nothing Christian about today’s “Christians.” Right down to throwing the money changers out of temple.
Joseph Nobles
@Mark S.: Yes, it’s a “jump through the horns of the dilemma” answer, meaning what someone wishes it to mean. Nothing that Jesus can get dragged before Pilate for, but there’s teeth behind the answer.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Loneoak:
Hey, now…Without Calvinism, where would get our Amway products? And Russ’ Restaurants? Kaput! No place in West Michigan to get chicken and rice soup!
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@jl:
Oh, he knows. He and I both know, and all too well.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): I’m still looking for the downside.
National championship game headed to overtime, tied at two. It’s been a really good game. I’m tempted to say that Duluth has been a little bit better, but they also scored a goal on a fluky bounce and Michigan missed one an an equally fluky play. So call it even.
Gwiwer
@Mark S.:
That passage isn’t at all ambiguous. Read the whole thing. It’s crystal clear.
15 Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. 16 They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. “Teacher,” they said, “we know that you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are. 17 Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay the imperial tax to Caesar or not?”
18 But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, “You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? 19 Show me the coin used for paying the tax.” They brought him a denarius, 20 and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?”
21 “Caesar’s,” they replied.
Then he said to them, “So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”
22 When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away.
Mathew 22:15-22
Sharl
In the English translations of Quranic verses at this place, the word “poor” shows up quite a few times. “Pay(eth) the poor-due” seems to be the most common phrase; I’m pretty sure I know what that statement means from its context, but it could be worded a bit more clearly in translation, at least for the “average” American reader.
Of course, that word “due” could be stretched or compressed in all sorts of ways, based on its everyday use, and the “screw the poor” crowd wouldn’t hesitate to do so.
Back to Christianity in the U.S. – in the Bible Belt, in fact: In 2003, conservative Republican Governor Bob Riley of Alabama tried to get a tax increase passed to support better schools, with the majority of the tax burden to be borne by those with means. The proposal got creamed at the polls, although the victorious opponents didn’t seem interested, willing, or able to come with a biblical basis for their position. More typical was the victorious crowing by the likes of Dick “Dick” Armey, who whined about how unfair it would have been. Eh, quelle surprise.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
I’ve been listening. Tight game. One of my younger cousins- recent Meesheegun grad living in the Twin Cities- is at the game. Hopefully she’s the rabbit’s foot.
ETA: She wasn’t. :(
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): I’m rooting for Michigan, but have the luxury of knowing that I won’t mind at all if Duluth finally wins one.
Edit: Which the Bulldogs just did.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
What do you expect from a group of people that huddle together in a building and hear from a book that says the outside world is out to get them?
I believe Jesus would wonder why they are huddling in the building as well, since he didn’t.
MTiffany
And I have a quote for you, ‘Comrade’:
— C. Montgomery Burns.
See also: The Gospel of Supply-Side Jesus. (http://www.bobonline.net/progxiansd/ssj/index.html)
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
No one has the guts to leave the temple.
Joseph Nobles
Shall I throw the added complication into the exegetical mix that there was an early group of Jewish Christians in Palestine called “the poor”? It was likely this group that Paul meant in Galatians when he talked about “remembering the poor.” This reference hardened into the polemic “Ebionite” (which means “the poor one”, plural means “the poor”), first in regards to all Jewish Christians, and then by the fourth century a specific sect of Christianity. Regardless, Paul got quasi-acceptance for his Gentile missionary work by raising cash for Jewish Christians back in Palestine in the first century, coalescing around James the Just.
So when the figure of Jesus in the Gospels tells us that “the poor” will always be with us, it’s another one of those statements that involves more than just poverty.
Aimai
Joseph nobles point seems weirdly literal. Jesus statement that the poor will always be with you was a reference to a well known phrase from Deuteronomy. There was just a big discussion of both passages over at slacktivist. Iv never heard the version nobles mentions–any cite?
RossInDetroit
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
Born in Muskegon. Heard ‘If you ain’t Dutch then you ain’t much’ a lot.
Not all of them, though. Grand Rapids actually has a surviving if not thriving gay community.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
or maybe jesus is the antichrist.
its a drinking game, find a newly born again person, start drinking, ask them the question, and see if they stop arguing before you pass out.
cg
The Quran says, over and over (40 times if I’ve counted at all correctly), “Trust God and do good,” or, slightly differently, “Have faith and do good works.”
Like Psalm 37. Like Jesus’, “Love God and love your neighbor.”
Just because all of us fuck this up doesn’t reduce its power. Quite a trip, if you try. Far more challenging than the current political crap shoot in which all we can do is identify with a target.
Rihilism
As an atheist, I’ve no problem associating the modern concept of social justice with Jesus (as a recovering Catholic, Christianity is my personal frame of reference). But the inner doubting Thomas keeps reminding me that Jesus’ ideas weren’t particularly, oh, I don’t know…, original. Just a quick scan of those proceeding and concurrent to Jesus’ “life” (i.e., Hillel, The Essenes, etc.) suggests, at the very least, that these supposedly revolutionary ideas were kinda already being discussed if not already being implemented. Not trying to diminish ‘ole JC so much as indicating that this moral structure (golden rule, love thy neighbor, etc.) seems to be an intrinsic property of the psyche of at least a portion of the population regardless of whether a single individual can be claimed as its progenitor.
That said, I don’t necessarily agree with those blaming Calvin (or Luther, for that matter who was just a big a fan of predestination as Calvin) for the failure of Christians to act “Christ-like”. Per uuushoowall, the downfall resides at the beginning. Not with Jesus, but with man I consider to be the P.T. Barnum of religions, the lovable, the irrepressible, Santa Paul. Had Paul not overemphasized that the only road to salvation was accepting Christ as savior whilst barely even mentioning Jesus’ good works, it’s possible (though not probable) that certain modern Christians might reconsider their poor attitudes regarding the poor.
Once you accept that Christ is “help me Obi Wan Kenobi, you’re my only hope” then the focus is on the me, my soul, my, mine, me, me, me, where’s my kudos? The poor? What do the poor, the downtrodden, the weak, the meek have to do with my personal-pan-sized savior. Paul says all I gotta do is accept Christ. Lump in predestination (I just knew I was one of the chosen, seriously, makes perfect sense he/she/it would pick me cause mom always told me I was special…) and nothing else matters. Nothing. Not the poor, the sick, the weak. They were probably destined for hell anyway. Not the state, the world, the universe. What bearing do any of these have on my acceptance of Christ as my savior? None.
Myself, I look forward to the coming apocalypse if only for the opportunity to kick St. Paul where the angels fear to tread.
End communication…
Sharl
@Aimai:
Joseph Nobles’ statement was a new one on me too, not that I know much of Christian or Palestinian-area history.
He might be referring to the Ebionites, as described here. The start of the second paragraph is the key thing regarding your query, assuming it is the correct reference point.
mclaren
For those folks who don’t believe in invisible sky fairies, this fails to carry much weight.
Methinks the Repubs talk a lot about heaven and Jesus but in the end all they really care about is getting enough cash stashed away to pay a whore to suck their toes every couple of days.
Nicole
Finally watching last night’s Bill Maher. It’s not great, but it’s satisfying to watch Spitzer and BBC Lady slap around Sullivan.
Ry
Best Moore Award nominee EVER
piratedan
@Will Reks: and those photostatic copies of his birth notices in the Bethlehem News and Observer
opie jeanne, formerly known as Jeanne Ringland
@robertdsc-PowerBook: Now we need our resident expert on all things Koran-based.
eemom
seen on a bumper sticker recently:
jussayinzall.
opie jeanne, formerly known as Jeanne Ringland
@MikeJ: They always get the emphasis wrong. They think Jesus was shrugging his shoulders and saying, “Whatever, man.”
opie jeanne, formerly known as Jeanne Ringland
@jl: I have never heard anyone saying this, but then I don’t hang out at the Assembly of God or Southern Bapdist churches.
opie jeanne, formerly known as Jeanne Ringland
@Loneoak: I have Calvinists in my family. They just don’t get the Methodists.
opie jeanne, formerly known as Jeanne Ringland
@Hermione Granger-Weasley: I know. I was calling for you when this came up, Didn’t see your post.
Gwiwer
The Jesus of the Gospels is a completely different figure than the modern conception of Jesus rightwing “Christians” have. They are completely incompatible. This is abundantly clear if you read chapter 6 of Matthew’s Gospel.
1 “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
…
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
16 “When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 17 But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18 so that it will not be obvious to others that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy,[c] your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eyes are unhealthy,[d] your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.
25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life?
28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
Sorry about the extended copy and paste job there, but it’s all so good I wanted to get it all in there and couldn’t help myself. Imagine if THAT Jesus ever did come back and started talking like that. The Tea Party people would probably try and crucify him all over again. It’s really quite startling just how different the real Jesus is from the imaginary Republican Jesus.
opie jeanne, formerly known as Jeanne Ringland
@Gwiwer: THIS. Especially this:
“….Imagine if THAT Jesus ever did come back and started talking like that. The Tea Party people would probably try and crucify him all over again. It’s really quite startling just how different the real Jesus is from the imaginary Republican Jesus.”
It didn’t used to be only Republicans 50 years ago, but a good many seem to have migrated to the party.
opie jeanne, formerly known as Jeanne Ringland
@Joseph Nobles: But did Jesus ever meet this group? Paul seemed to have his own agenda, despite his Road to Damascus moment, never completely recovered from his Pharisee past.
Gwiwer
@opie jeanne, formerly known as Jeanne Ringland: The Ebionites were one of many Jewish Christian groups around Jerusalem during that time. In fact, the church in Jerusalem was run by acquaintances and relatives of Jesus. They were very different from Pauline Christianity in the sense that they firmly adhered to Mosaic law and believed that to become a Christian one would first have to convert to Judaism and uphold all of the laws of the Torah. Paul bitterly opposed them though and preached that anyone, Jew or Gentile, could become a Christian just by believing in Jesus and that the law no longer applied to people who believed in Jesus. As we could see, Paul’s side won out even though the Jewish Christians had amongst their members people who directly knew Jesus and, in some cases, were actually related to him. Paul probably won because his version of Christianity was much more attractive to gentile converts from around the Roman empire who didn’t want to deal with the added burdens that would be placed on them by becoming practicing Jews and adhering to the Mosaic law.
Citizen_X
@Gwiwer:
Jesus was way shrill.
Forget whatever argument he was trying to make; what about his tone? Obviously he cannot be considered a Serious commentator.
Citizen_X
@Gwiwer:
Jesus was way shrill.
Forget whatever argument he was trying to make; what about his tone? Obviously he cannot be considered a Serious commentator on the issues.
Edit: Sorry about the double post.
Rihilism
@Gwiwer: “Paul’s side won out even though the Jewish Christians had amongst their members people who directly knew Jesus and, in some cases, were actually related to him.”
The balls on that man, huh? Saul, having never even met Jesus, has a seizure, calls himself Paul and proceeds to tell Peter (the rock on which the church is to be built) and James (Jesus’ fucking brother fer James Brother’s sake) yer doin’ it wrong, and co-opts Christianity in a hostile takeover.
At least John Smith and L. Ron Hubbard had original (albeit batshit insane) ideas. Paul just says “me too” when he sees a golden opportunity and proceeds to muscle out the competition by stressing volume over margin…
RossInDetroit
I read somewhere an unusual interpretation of the “the poor will always be with us” quote. I think it was Elaine Pagels in Harper’s or The New Yorker. She said Jesus might have been mocking his disciples who proposed selling a costly perfume and donating the money rather than wasting the fragrance on Him. She theorizes that the disciples were enriching themselves from the charity fund and Jesus knew this. That he was telling them that opportunities for improper profit from others’ goodness would continue.
Maybe things haven’t changed much in 1980 years.
Elliecat
Do commenters on this blog have something against using the word “Christianist”? I find it a very useful word when you want to differentiate between people who attempt to live out what Jesus Christ preached (Christians) and people who use their religious beliefs as a way to justify cruel behavior, subjugate others and spread hate (Christianists).
Or maybe enough people despise both groups equally that it’s pointless to make distinctions?
kdaug
@MikeJ: Oh, man, you know what’s going to be running through my head the rest of the week now? Thanks a lot, buddy.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@RossInDetroit:
I was also born in Muskegon, but made it to GR by the time I was 3. And you’re right about the gay community- I’ve lived in the Cherry Hill or Heritage Hill neighborhoods for 15 years now- a lot of gay and lesbian neighbors. I think “thriving” is the right choice.
I hate that shit. HATE IT. It would be one thing if it was self-deprecating, or was just sorta prideful, but whenever I’ve heard it said, it’s meant to make the rest of us feel inferior. And it isn’t a Dutch thing, but a Dutch Calvinist thing, reeking of predestination.
opie jeanne, formerly known as Jeanne Ringland
@Rihilism: Joe Smith, not John, and he wasn’t exactly original with his ideas. Copied a lot of the book from a novel written by a neighbor five years before his ‘revelation’.
Mnemosyne
@Joseph Nobles:
I dunno, that sounds like an awfully convenient urban legend, like when Christianists try to claim that when Jesus says that it’s easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to get into heaven, he really meant a small gate in the walls of Jerusalem (that probably never existed) and not an actual needle.
Fred Clark says that it’s a reference to a similar admonishment in Deuteronomy, so unless the same claim is made about the line in Deuteronomy, I don’t think it’s correct.
Mnemosyne
@Gwiwer:
Andy Partridge and XTC did imagine it, and it turns out pretty much the way you think.
Interesting that the video seems to try really, really hard to avoid being about religion even though that’s pretty clearly what the song is about, not JFK.
Joseph Nobles
@Mnemosyne:
From Paul’s letters, we know that Paul raised money for Jerusalem Christians from the Gentiles. In fact, an allusion to this is further past Galatians 2:11, the verse I quoted, where he emphasizes that we should do good to all men, especially the community of believers. However, there were tensions caused by some from Jerusalem who were asking a lot more than just money. Paul seizes on one of their requests in Galatians by saying he wished these advocates of circumsision would just cut their dicks off. I paraphrase, but not by much.
I think the tension between Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians is well enough documented, as is Paul’s collection for the poor of the Jerusalem church. Into this context, I would place the story about Jesus and the women with expensive perfume, and I think without too much violence. When the gospel’s Jesus tells his audience that “the poor will always be with you,” speaking over the outraged rulemaking and principles of his mouthy disciples (one so concerned with money he runs off and arranges to betray Jesus for money immediately after this), I hear a gospel writer telling his audience that they can chill out about demands from bossy Jerusalem Christians concerned about cash or Deuteronomy.
SRW1
What I don’t get about Andrew Sullivan in the context of the Ryan proposal is something pointed out by somebody else on another blog and is much more personal than the tension between his professed Catholicism and how much or how little the teachings of the New Testament influence his policy positions.
Andrew Sullivan is one of the unfortunate people afflicted by disease that was very deadly when it started to spread in the US, but, while not curable yet, is at least controllable today. There is not much doubt that Andrew Sullivan is still walking this Earth because of a pretty massive research effort paid for by public money and because people with the disease, like him, received massively subsidized treatment until the cost of HIV medications came down.
Which raises the question: Is Andrew Sullivan not aware of what subsidized health care did for him when he welcomes Ryan’s attack on Medicare, or is it another case of ‘I got mine, you can go to hell’? I am actually starting to despise him for this.
soonergrunt
@Mnemosyne: That small gate probably did exist, and there were most likely dozens of them. It was necessary for people to leave the city a couple of times a day to take a dump, for example as well as work in the fields. However, those portals, examples of which exist today, were specifically designed to make it impossible for anything larger than an unburdened man to pass through. You have to bend your knees and go through sideways. They were made this way for defensive purposes–people moving sideways exposed openings in their armor–and the openings could easily be plugged in case of siege, but also for tax purposes. You only need to have a tax collector at the big entrances that camels and other beasts of burden employed by traders could use.
Snarla
Sharl, the poor due is zakat or almsgiving, one of the five pillars of Islam. It is similar to tithing, and it is levied on the well-to-do to support the poor.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Elliecat: well…the problem is there is not a real significant difference between what Sully calls christianists and modern form christianity.
@Snarla: zakat (alms) and salihat (just duty, just deeds) Islam retains the original form of the pillars because the sunnah and the hadith enforce a sort of memetic hygiene, preserving the original meaning. The individualism of modern form christianity has allowed memetic mutations like the Proseperity Gospel and the White Christian Republican Party.
Sharia prohibits the payment or acceptance of interest fees for loans of money (Riba, usury), for specific terms. There have been proposals to incorportate some form of shariah anti-usury law to prevent a replay of the Econopalypse. That is how shariah will take over America I bet….by putting a handcuff on the invisble hand of the free market.
DougJ is right tho. Modern form christianity has little of Issa’s social justice anymore.
IPOF, many christian preachers and Glenn Beck warn the christian republican base away from any pastor that preaches social justice.
See? Memetic mutation from Issa’s original concept.
Social justice as a gateway drug for communism, Naziism, and of course, the dreaded soshulism.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Mnemosyne: Here’s a good comment from Sean
“
The lack of memetic hygiene in biblical exegesis allows broad memetic mutation of the original message of christianity. For example, snakehandlers.
Or Glenn Beck
This is part of calvinist/lutheran heritage and the revolt against catholic/anglican control of biblical exegesis. It also does lead to anti-intellectualism in protestantism.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Gwiwer:
The real jesus IS the republican jesus now.
He is a mutant, but he is the only real jesus in this frame of spacetime.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@opie jeanne, formerly known as Jeanne Ringland: Isn’t it interesting that one of the few unmutated memes is proselytizing aka “spreading the good word”?
And that meme makes people hate christians and probably turns off broad swaths of the population to conversion.
Mormons, jehovah witnesses and evangelicals are the most disliked )and widely mocked) brands of christianity because of their emphasis on missionariism and proselytizing.
Sharl
@Snarla: Thanks! Helps greatly to know that “poor-due” cannot be separated into its constituent words in the context of Quranic tenets; that’s where I was confused.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Sharl:
I doubt Issa would recognize modern form christianity. In Islam Issa’s prophecy consists of equal parts love and justice.
@opie jeanne, formerly known as Jeanne Ringland:
rubbed the lamp, did you?
Cheryl from Maryland
@SRW1: Exactly. I already despise him for being unaware and ungrateful.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
My First Shayyk, Muhyi al-Din Ibn Arabi felt a special bond with Issa, and preserved his words in the Fusus al-Hikam which has a chapter on each of the twenty-five prophets.
This is my favorite Sufi teaching story of Issa.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Sharl: that is why the uncreated revealed Quran remains in arabic to preserve the original meaning.
The enjoinment against translations, because it is hard to get the real meaning of the arabic words.
For example, there are 77 different words for love in arabic, all with different meanings.
Sharl
@Hermione Granger-Weasley: I didn’t know that translation from Arabic was not approved. Thanks!
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Sharl: you are welcome.
darn.
i bet opie isn’t going to rub the lamp again for a long, long time.
;)