I’m peacing outta here for a while. “Hooray!! some shouted, fists pumping in the air. “Boooo!!” some hissed, latching on to my leg.
There, There, little one. You know where to find me. (Or not.)
GBCW! ::dramatic faint:: -ABLxx
His words rang out with an unmistakable certitude.
“This is the most racist place I’ve ever lived,” said the man sitting across from me, a black writer and poet whose acquaintance I had only made earlier that day.
His expression made it clear that this was no mere hyperbole spat out so as to get a reaction. He meant every word and proceeded in about twenty minutes to lay out the case for why indeed this place where we were talking — San Francisco — was far more racist, in his estimation than any of several places he had lived in the South.
Worse than Birmingham.
Worse than Jackson, Mississippi.
Worse than Dallas.
San Francisco. Yes, that San Francisco.
From police harassment to profiling to housing discrimination to a persistent invisibility he’d felt since first arriving, there was no doubt that the ostensibly liberal enclave was head and shoulders above the rest.
And it wasn’t his opinion alone. I have heard similar feelings expressed about the Bay Area by peoples of color many times since, as well as about Seattle, Portland, and any number of other supposedly progressive paradises where various “alternative” types (of white folks at least) seem to feel at home. Even those who wouldn’t rank a place like San Francisco as the most racist city in which they’d lived, are often quick to insist that its racism is comparable to what they’ve experienced elsewhere, which is to say, no less a problem.
When I’ve recounted these discussions with folks of color living in “progressive” cities to my white liberal friends, they have usually recoiled in shock, followed by a kind of white leftie defensiveness that was, sadly, unsurprising. Their responses to the news that black and brown folks don’t find the history of the Haight-Ashbury district, or the Summer of Love all that inspiring — after all, when Jefferson Airplane and the Grateful Dead were entertaining white hippies in the Fillmore, black folks were fighting for their lives across the way in Oakland — often suggest a desire on their part to believe that the people to whom I’d spoken were seeing things.
Unfortunately the pattern is all too common. If people of color complain about racism and discrimination in rural Georgia, no one is surprised. In fact, to many the image is comforting as it fulfills every stereotype, regional and political, that so many folks continue to carry around regarding who the bad guys are.
But suggest that racism and discrimination are also significant problems in more “progressive spaces,” even among self-proclaimed liberals and leftists themselves — and that it might be unearthed in our political movements — and prepare to be met with icy stares, or worse, a self-righteous vitriol that seeks to separate “real racism” (the right-wing kind) from not-so-real racism (the kind we on the left sometimes foster). And know that before long, someone will admonish you to focus on the “real enemy,” rather than fighting amongst ourselves. “What we need is unity,” these voices say, “and all that talk about racism on the left just divides us further.”
[read the rest here]
Comrade Kevin
I was pointed to that article by, I think, vcthree on Twitter, a couple of days ago. It’s well worth reading.
Tyro
And interesting essay and definitely worth reading. I would have liked to hear more specifics about the sort of racism practiced by liberals and the left manifests itself specifically in the way individual African Americans experience racism in places like San Francisco.
ruemara
hooo boy, the stories I could tell you about my time in the Bay. All I can say is when you’re black, you’re damn near mythological. IOW, you hardly exist, no one actually sees you and the few times you’re noticed, a lot of times someone is taking a shot at you. If I had clue where to go now, I’d leave CA, just to never be here again, but thems the breaks.
sherifffruitfly
Cool. I look forward to seeing your post here. Tomorrow.
Bob Loblaw
So, um, is there a connection between “leaving” (whatever that means) and this post? Did you just call this site racist, or is it just a coincidence based on the quality of Tim Wise’s work you wanted to share?
ruemara
@Tyro:
ok, let’s see.
first denial of service in a restaurant-Pinole
first dismissal due to terrifying blackness-SF
2nd & 3rd denial of service in a restaurant-North Bay
7th offer of employment at a rate well below market to the tune of laughable-SF
Most uncomfortable contract week of my life spent being asked why black people do ___-Oakland
first time ever having someone mock my music as angry hateful rap music with …questionable… supposed lyrics-SF music in question, pizzacato 5
first ever being told to “nigger” something into position-SF
first ever being told hugging my fiance at a pride event was akin to the person talking to me calling me nigger-SF
Well, there’s more but I think that was enough. The laughter of my not so black friends as I sat there not being served was also not a good feeling. Apparently, being discriminated against is funny.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Bob Loblaw:
I took it as the typical Obotic “get a dig in at yer own side every chance ya can” schtick.
Was I wrong?
Guster
Someone needs better white liberal friends. Of course they’re racist. Only an idiot would deny that.
Liberals are racist, conservatives are racist. Jews are racist, Christians are racist. Men are racist, women are racist. Whites are racist, blacks are racist. That’s what living in a racist society means. Nobody’s exempted from the culture due to good intentions.
When this stops being a conversation-ending accusation and starts being accepted as the unremarkable-and-not-even-insulting default, and a springboard-to-action, maybe we’ll get somewhere. I’m a ‘self-proclaimed liberal,’ and I don’t need to look any farther than me to find racism. I’m not gonna start wearing sackcloth and ashes about it, it’s just the fact of when and where I was raised. The idea that I can ‘stop being racist,’ or that someone in my culture ‘isn’t racist,’ is woefully naive. Not to mention beside the point. And completely unproductive.
Yes, I’m racist. If we can accept that as settled, maybe we can move on to the next question, which is, ‘So what should we do about it?’
Urza
Having just visited San Francisco for the first time I was curious at least by the homeless all being black. Aside from them and a few city workers there weren’t to many other African Americans noticeable to the tourist.
However, I did feel it was the most friendly city I’ve been to other than maybe Tokyo.
Tyro
Yes, I’m racist. If we can accept that as settled, maybe we can move on to the next question, which is, ‘So what should we do about it?’
Tim Wise’s essay actually talks a lot about that if you take the time to read it.
beergoggles
I’m curious whether this is just a feeling black folks get or whether it applies to brown ppl too? As a bi-/brown person, I haven’t really experienced this subtle racism although I have had a couple incidences where I’ve been called racial epithets in ‘enlightened’ Massachusetts (Southie). However, I have never felt physically threatened the way I did when I was mistaken for being Mexican when I was visiting friends in Texas or while traveling in Florida or the Carolinas. I have since avoided the south at all costs and skip flyover country the way it should be while enjoying the north-east and west coast.
Phoebe
@Tyro: Yeah, I found myself scanning the article for examples and coming up short.
@ruemara: Holy shit. That is all. No, question: with the exception of the last example, all of these seem to be things you’d experience in more expectedly racist places (the South). Is it that these places where you think everyone’s all happy shiny liberal holding hands, these places are exactly as or more racist — in the same way — as the small town in Mississippi, OR is it that white liberals have their own weird, infuriating (and I’m guessing insanely condescending) brand of it, that you don’t run into with people (like forty percent of Mississippians) who will tell a poll taker that they think interracial marriage should be illegal? I was kind of expecting the “own peculiar brand” argument from the article, but could not figure out which point was being made, although the fact that I was impatiently skimming for examples probably didn’t help.
I really really really love examples.
Failure, Inc.
The Bay Area is an interesting place. Blacks are, by and large, invisible. And as long as they “stay in their place” (see ruemara‘s all too believable post – I lived there for 15 years so I know he’s not shitting you – above) and interact with whites in the expected, tokenized ways there’s no problem. If they try to do otherwise there are some real problems.
Same but worse for Portland.
Guster
@Tyro: Well, I’ll do more than skim it tomorrow. On first glance, it strikes me as fairly unhelpful–and I think largely counterproductive in the way I mentioned. ‘Racism’ is an indefensible sin, and if you are racist you are the ‘bad other.’ I’m not saying racism is good, obviously., but I still suspect we have to de-stigmatize it in order to deal with it.
But I’ll re-read. Probably I missed something.
MattMinus
Can I have your stuff?
Sorry, wrong forum.
Jacob Davies
Just have to listen to the way people in San Francisco talk about Oakland. Now I’ll be the first to say that Oakland has some problems, but it’s not Mogadishu, and it has a lot of charm and interest as well.
Friend of mine had to hail a cab for Willie Brown because none of them would stop for him. You know, the mayor.
John Cole
Why am I always the last person to find shit out around here. And is this permanent?
Damnit. I just got the email addresses done right.
grumble
Bruce S
For starters, go here and judge for yourself whether this post is bullshit or not…
http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/explorer
“just have to listen to the way people in San Francisco talk about Oakland.”
But this piece lumps in the East Bay. I live in Oakland – West Oakland – and can testify, having lived in St. Louis, Chicago, Manhattan and Austin – that it’s one of the most integrated places in America. I f-ing LOVE Oakland. And don’t even go there with that “Mogadishu” shit. I’m sick of being patronized, even by folks with good intentions.
Djur
I feel like there’s some assumption going on here that everyone who lives in a ‘liberal city’ (SF, Portland, etc.) is a liberal. It seems that these cities being mostly white and having a very small black population is more directly the cause of racism. People being racist in SF is not, in itself, liberal racism.
As far as ‘perspectivism’ goes, that’s not a term with any real meaning in the liberal viewpoint. The liberal construction of oppression is that rich white straight people have it made, and that black, gay, or poor people are oppressed by not being able to live like rich white straight people. The liberal ideal is a black lesbian in a boardroom, not reconsidering whether the boardroom is a good idea in the first place.
American liberalism absorbed American leftism and, as a result, is kind of a basket case. The kind of antiracism Tim Wise is involved with is traditionally a leftist concern. Multiculturalism and cultural relativism are leftist concepts and not entirely compatible with liberalism, which is why liberals do such a bad job of it.
Also, I am not incredibly impressed by using PETA’s Holocaust/slavery campaigns as an example of liberal racism. PETA doesn’t really fit into even the broader scope of the American left and is outright rejected by most liberals. You might as well cite the SLA as evidence of liberal terrorism.
Finally: using first-wave feminist indifference to the sterilization issue as an example is pretty bad, akin to citing Wilson’s high regard for the Klan. First-wave feminists were 20th-century progressives, which was a movement generally fine with eugenics, racism, etc. It wasn’t until after FDR that the ‘mainstream left’ (i.e. liberal Democrats) embraced civil rights at all; before then, the civil rights movement got the strongest support from Communists.
wasabi gasp
So long, and thanks for all the gifs.
Comrade Kevin
@John Cole: Somehow, I knew about yesterday.
Allan
@Guster: I think you’re holding out some pretty high expectations for a single essay by a writer. The point of this article is that racism is not a phenomenon exclusive to the political right, and it sounds like you have already advanced beyond such simplistic thinking, unlike the people who were probably Wise’s intended audience.
You might actually find Tim Wise’s book, “White Like Me” to be more worthwhile. I know I did.
Djur
Oh, and my intention is not to argue that there are no racist liberals, that mainstream liberal activism doesn’t largely ignore race, or that perspective bias is not a problem. Instead, my issue is that the essay lumps liberals and leftists together, lumps a bunch of individual issues with racial politics together, and makes it “racism on the liberal left”. And, once that’s been done, I just don’t think it’s very coherently argued. I think there’s four good essays in there, and they’re all weakened by being combined.
Ruckus
A very good friend of mine moved to the east bay because she felt the racism. She said it was subtle but she could feel it. She says it’s better in the east bay but still there. She was born and raised in the south almost 60 yrs ago and is no stranger to racism.
Bruce S
“it was subtle but she could feel it.”
Where, exactly, is this not the case…
“it’s better in the east bay but still there”
Duh!
I’m sure moving to Birmingham AL, Jackson MS or Dallas TX would mitigate this, as suggested by the author.
Tim, Interrupted
ABL’s “GBCW” angle is curious…has there been drama of late that I missed out on?
Corner Stone
Change is hard. First we lose our Ombudsman, and now our Hall Monitor.
ItAintEazy
Guess you can say the same for blacks in for Minnesota too. Take me for example, I stopped working for Habitat for Humanities because people kept assuming I’m building my own house.
Yeah, really.
Bob Loblaw
As a mere first generation American, I’ve never been able to wholly appreciate the full black-white conflict. Then again, as a Muslim-American by tradition and culture if not actual devotion, I’m pretty much feared, distrusted, and/or despised by everybody and anybody of all color in this country, so I’ve never been too inclined to look. I figure it’s a just cost of doing business really. It is what it is. No sense internalizing things too deeply.
Bruce S
I tried to edit my comment but it didn’t work – I just want to add, for what it’s worth, that as an East Bay resident I can’t stand SF – it’s been destroyed as a haven for working class or even middle class people of whatever race over the 40 years I’ve lived in the area. And redevelopment – or “Negro Removal,” which I fought actively – was particularly pernicious in SF. But the notion that Dallas Texas – as example – is a potential haven from the racism of the Bay Area is, frankly, a “look at me” writer’s conceit and an absolute underestimation of the breadth and depth of racism in this country…where-ever. This is lazy, narcissistic stuff, at best.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Bob Loblaw: Zat you Wilfred?!?
ruemara
@Phoebe:
You know, I actually forgot when I found out my job as I was told it was, was a lower paying position when reported to head office. To my face, I was mid management, to the head office, I was entry level. I had all responsibilities and the grief, none of the paycheck or the benefits. My replacement after I amicably left was almost a physical duplicate of me, just Asian female. She trimmed my former duties in half and charged them 30k more for the job. Ah well.
We’re ok in the Bay, we just shouldn’t be so objectionably black and loud and hold different views than our betters. Nor should we be in creative or technical fields because we just don’t “fit”, dammit.
And we should not mention any of these feelings of unease because AL, MS & TX are much worse so shut your pieholes already, dammit.
geg6
Well, I, for one will miss you (but catch up on your blog) if this is for reals.
As to the subject at hand, I am incredibly aware of my privilege as a white woman, admittedly less than that of a white man, however. But even with that and my lifelong (and possibly in the womb, too) liberalism, I still find myself falling into the old racist traps but in exactly that liberally racist way the article highlights. All I can say is that I try to stay alert for such lazy thinking, I continually try to improve, and I work to convince others to reject racism in all its forms. It may not be much and it certainly should not be an excuse for my own failings.
I am constantly impressed by African Americans’ patience with assholes like me and my fellow privileged whites. I don’t know that I could display such fortitude in the face such blatant or even clueless and careless inhumanity. Scratch that. I do know I couldn’t because no one bristles more quickly in the face of male privilege than I do.
gnomedad
@Tim, Interrupted:
I’m wondering too. I haz a sad.
mr. whipple
Damn.
junebug
You sound exactly like this guy. Which isn’t saying much.
I’ve managed to live almost my entire life in the south and have never been accused of being a racist. Not one time in all of my near 50 years of living on this planet. Of course, that might be because I lived in an “all white” city (the Hispanic population was ignored) while growing up that had a KKK headquarters in it, classmates that thought it was fun to have a “nigger killing permit” and parents who thought it was funny to tell my younger brother that they traded a black baby for him (bizarre).
Saying, “look I’m a racist, deal with me” is a non-starter. Grow up out of your racism and quit blaming it on where and how you grew up.
Then we can have a conversation.
junebug
@Guster:
Sorry, I fail to attribute that block quote to you.
Tyro
Nor should we be in creative or technical fields because we just don’t “fit”, dammit.
This is huge in the bay area, and it wasn’t until you mentioned it from the standpoint of your own perspective that I realize the pernicious effect it must have on African Americans. Job hiring focuses so much on whether you’re a “good fit” for the “culture.” Basically that means “hiring everyone you went to college with or went to a college like yours.” While this is an awful lot of fun if you make the cut, it basically creates a monoculture in the whole area because every single company is doing the same thing.
jeff
stay!
MikeBoyScout
People heard….?
Bob Loblaw
Can I also just say that Tim Wise is a serious douchebag for naming his book Between Barack and a Hard Place?
Trainrunner
Is that essay an indictment of racism or prolixity?
jeff
@John Cole:
I hope ABL will continue to contribute! If it’s because of what some person said, then I think that’s not a good reason. I read the text ABL posted, and I’m sure there have been prejudiced and unfair things said here (I know there have). But I’ve enjoyed ABl’s posts immensely and I hate that she’s leaving!
Joseph Nobles
I believe the peace out has something to do with this:
https://balloon-juice.com/2011/04/12/the_fundamental_question/
And this:
http://lhote.blogspot.com/2011/04/it-only-takes-one-reason.html
At least that’s what I gathered (imperfectly, I’m sure) from the Twitter yesterday. Angry Black Lady can best articulate her concerns.
Damn fine article from Tim Wise.
Marci Kiser
Re: “a black writer and poet whose acquaintance I had only made earlier that day.”
Nice to see one of Tom Friedman’s cab drivers taking a coffee break.
Omnes Omnibus
@junebug: That wasn’t how I read that comment. As I understood it, the commenter was saying that everyone has unexamined biases that come from life experience or lack thereof and that we need to acknowledge them in order to really have conversation about race in this country. Perhaps I read too deeply, but that is what I saw the commenter trying to express.
junebug
@Omnes Omnibus:
As I pointed out, the right wing talker I linked to has said much the same thing on the air. His thing is that he’s so tired of being called a racist that he admits it, and then thinks he can have a conversation.
Admitting that you are a racist means that you need to do some work before you can come to me or any reasonable person and talk.
300baud
I think it’s pretty easy for everybody to not realize how they’re racist. Or sexist. Or classist. Or unconsciously harboring all sorts of other prejudice.
If you’d like to find out whether you’re truly the saint (or the devil) you think you are, try some of the tests from Project Implicit:
https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/
Before trying the race one, I would have said I wasn’t racist because my considered, rational thoughts definitely weren’t. But the test helped me see how racism is more subtle than that.
Phoebe
@ruemara:
This reminds me of my brother bitching about how left wingers are all so down on America, always pointing out our human rights abuses, etc., when Uganda or wherever is so much worse! This baffles me. The whole point is that we’re supposed to be better. Liberal culture guilty of racism is much much more interesting to me than Confederate culture guilty of racism, A) because of the hypocrisy and non-self-awareness, B) because this is where I live, so to speak. These are my people, my facebook friends, the guests at the weddings I go to, by and large, like it or not.
Bruce S
Joseph Nobles – April 14, 2011 | 12:15 am · Link
“I believe the peace out has something to do with this:
https://balloon-juice.com/2….._question/
And this:
http://lhote.blogspot.com/2011…..eason.html
At least that’s what I gathered (imperfectly, I’m sure) from the Twitter yesterday. Angry Black Lady can best articulate her concerns.”
Maybe I’m just too old or…forgive me…too “normal”, but when someone starts explaining their series of “Tweets” with some on-air pundit, I’m beyond giving a flying f**k.
junebug
@300baud:
I did that many years ago and blogged about it at the time. It is a very good tool.
My point is that people who just break down and say “yeah I’m a racist, deal with me” are not being helpful. And blaming it on their upbringing or circumstances is bullshit.
Like I said before, I’ve managed to live virtually all of my life in the south (the other part was in the former USSR shortly after independence) and have never ever ever had that label pinned on me. And I work with people from all over the planet and they get to answer that question about me on a regular basis.
My point being, it’s fairly easy not to be racist. Telling me that you can’t help being a racist is not helpful.
freelancer
If I could choose between ABL and Freddie, I choose ABL all the way. Hasn’t the anti-abortion/pro-life voting bloc taught us that single-issue voters are retarded? What’s the diff if the flip side for the left in this case is abstaining from voting for an incumbent Dem president over National Security overreach. Pragmatism trumps purity, every single damned time.
slag
Damn! Just as this place was starting to get good again. Well, if it ain’t one thing…
And yes, that Wise essay was a good one. Although I haven’t seen many of his theories on strategy play out well at all in practice. But, as Tobias says, it might work for us!
Corner Stone
@freelancer: What’s with the choice?
junebug
@freelancer:
Agreed. 100%.
I wasn’t familiar with this Freddie person, but the dog picture didn’t do it for me.
He had Nader written all over him.
ABL is bringing the real stuff.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I take this to mean ABL is taking a break, plans on coming back, and remains in good humor. I look forward to her return
Bob Loblaw
Where’s eemom to call Cole a racist, misogynist pig?
This blog has too much intrigue and shenanigans. Of course, so does every other online community I suppose…
Mark S.
@Corner Stone:
See the third link.
LiberalTarian
Well, as a white woman spending a number of weekends in Oakland and Berkeley for family and work, I guess I have say, yeah, it’s a racist place. But, it is racist all the way around–I have had several black men say things to me that made my jaw drop in horror, usually along the lines of let’s have sex right here and now (and believe me, in the coarsest terms imaginable). And how did I “cause” this to happen? I was relatively cordial. I made eye contact and gave the no-teeth-cuz-I-don’t-know-you-but-I-see-you smile.
Now, my experience with black men has been 99.9999% positive, but for the choice interactions mentioned above, but even if I were completely open minded I would still think that was racist, even though it was probably just mysogynistic. Although, “hey white lady, want a little color in you?” is hard to misinterpret. And my daughters get a lot of that in public places where they are alone, too. Not from Asian and Latino men, but black men. And no, that has never happened to me anywhere else. I don’t know what the deal is, but that’s a truth. Call it racism I guess.
Hey, Berkeley and Oakland are in-your-face kinda places, and everybody acts like they hate everybody. But I have a lot of friends and people I love in Oakland, Berkeley and San Fran in a variety of colors and nationalities–mostly artists, some cooks, some educators, some musicians. None of them like racists … but they don’t pretend that race doesn’t exist. If you have a chip on your shoulder about race or sexuality, the Bay Area is a place where you are going to get called out on it. Hell, you’ll get called out on your race or sexuality even if you don’t!
Like Dr. Cox loves to say, “Grow a pair Sally.”
Suffern ACE
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I assumed that she has a job or some kind of commitment. I believe that were she pissed, she’d say something. She isn’t Passive Aggressive Silent Treatment Black Lady.
John Cole
Why are we acting like there has to be a choice between the two? This blog is big enough for both of them. Are you all really so insecure with your beliefs that one person on the blog skeptical about Obama is going to give you the vapors?
And for the record, I saw the post at Freddie’s site that took Balloon Juice to task. I actually quoted it to him and basically said ‘If you think we’re wrong, come tell us why?”
And he did. And I’m glad. He adds a distinct view.
And I didn’t invite him to tweak ABL, because I offered him an invite before the update in which he singled her out. And even then, if it had been, I have more confidence in ABL’s ability to handle shit than you all do. I read her twitter feed, I read her blog, and I read her posts here. I have full faith that if she and Freddie have a beef with each other, they will be able to deal with it. Both of them know how to deploy a fuck you when needed.
Tim, Interrupted
People! Don’t you know? EVERYONE’S a little bit racist!
http://youtu.be/RovF1zsDoeM
Watch this, listen and LEARN!
John Cole
By the way, the place I’ve been where the racism was so overt that it shocked me was Tampa Bay/Orlando.
FeFiFo
What’s your single issue? The ginned-up babykilling psychofest of the antiabortion movement, or the legitimate concern legal experts and human rights workers who question any President granting the authority to the government to assassinate its own citizens?
Access to abortion is affected far more by state legislature than it is by who holds the Presidency, and I don’t see anyone arguing not to vote for progressive Democrats. Cutting access to womens health services, especially for poor women, is the big picture target they’re aiming at.
I don’t have a lot of sympathy for the Democratic machine right now given Cuomo’s pulling the same type of austerity cuts that Republican governors are getting flack over, Rahm got Chicago as a consolation prize and is about to go nutbar on the teachers there, and Obama’s going to get a billion from a lot of people with better connections and bank accounts than I’ll ever see. I’ll write in Bernie Sanders, and yes, the irony of hoping for an old white guy to save the day with actual socialism is not lost on me.
John Cole
And apparently this herbal tea was not decaf.
Mark S.
IT’S A BLOG NOT A CHOICE!
Tim, Interrupted
So…I’m suspicious that ABL is just trolling for us to beg her to stay.
If she leaves, who else will be responsible for banning me, chaining me in their basement and performing unspeakable acts upon my person for a week?
HUH?
Just Some Fuckhead
I actually think they’re both awesome. Honestly, we already had too many Obots when ABL joined. But frankly, we already have too many white people now.
The only solution here is a naked fight to the death with the rest of us cheering on the carnage lustily while throwing money at a bookie. I will be the bookie since no one else volunteered.
Omnes Omnibus
@300baud: Interesting. I showed a slight preference for African-Americans.
Just Some Fuckhead
@John Cole:
I feel ya, bro.
Corner Stone
@Mark S.: Meh. I prefer not.
Just Some Fuckhead
@John Cole:
Fargo, ND for me. I remarked at lunch with a group of 12 Fargoats that I’d never seen so many white people in my entire life than in Fargo and I was going to my hotel room at night and crying while I watched the Jeffersons.
One of them said “The cold keeps out the riff-raff” and the rest of them nodded sagely and I thought to myself, do these fuckers even know what they just said?
Comrade Kevin
@John Cole: I’m absolutely convinced you didn’t do it to pss off ABL. I suggest you check out her own site, and the whole brouhaha with that nitwit Joan Walsh to get an idea where this started.
lamh34
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Unfortunately, this is the usual for most liberal blogs.
I for one will miss the uniquely Black & female sensibility ABL brought along.
Let me tell ya, there nothing worse than being the only minority person in a sea of majority persons. As soon as the discussion turns to minority affair, they all turn to you…
I like BJ, but I’ll admit that I’ll miss commiserating with ABL, and she added a much needed “cultural sensibility” that BJ was lacking a little…IMHO.
Corner Stone
@Tim, Interrupted:
Trying to out-Stuck President Stuck? The balls on that angry lady.
Tim, Interrupted
@John Cole:
Sadly, as is the case with most bullies, ABL loves to dish it, but she cannot take it. With any grace, that is.
I believe you know this, Cole, but are unwilling to acknowledge it openly here.
Bob Loblaw
@John Cole:
Oh Cole, stop being so Privileged. Don’t you see man? Don’t you see what’s at stake? The entire left is fracturing! Everything said on the internets is the Most Important Thing Ever! The whole of reality is threatened!
Meanwhile, in non-crazy land, the question of Obama’s reelection will be answered by white independents in Ohio, Florida, Virginia, and Colorado, and not by people on fucking blogs.
Just Some Fuckhead
@lamh34:
There was like one AA blogger and they killed him.
But you should see the conservative side of the toobz. It’s even worse over there.
wasabi gasp
Is Steve M. black? I sure hope so. Get him.
Corner Stone
@Bob Loblaw: God damn. Our previous Hall Monitor’s body isn’t even cold yet, and you’re here challenging for the spot?
Just Some Fuckhead
I know many of you are asking yourselves by now just what/who the hell is JSF. Gay/straight, black/white, short asian woman/short asian man?
Truth is, I’m everything to everyone. It’s the cross I bear for you.
freelancer
@John Cole:
I do declare that this strawman gave me know vapors. There’s plenty of sincere Obot skepticism here. You even have tags for when it comes up. I implied a hypothetical choice because ABL seem gobsmacked on Twitter that days after the re-election campaign is announced, a FPer shows up and says he’s taking his vote and going home.
I would love an Elizabeth Warren / Bernie Sanders Administration as much as Freddie, but I’m not throwing tantrums about it online.
I’m on Team Fuck Yeah quite firmly at this point. The alternative is too terrifying to even consider for a moment.
That said, it doesn’t mean I’ll stop reading Freddie or anyone who may have something sincere, meaningful, and intellectually honest to say.
Oh yeah? Freddie you hear that? Time to drop bombs, son!
JC
Didn’t really like the essay that much. Very few practical examples, or ways to be different, just this harping on a false consciousness. You can always find prejudices, but how do you distinguish prejudice, from racism? It’s always a bit sketchy when dealing with false consciousness, or accusations of false consciousness, as well. It’s true, but it’s much more useful to deal with ongoing examples, as they show up.
What’s funny about San Francisco, is that there are actually ‘asian only’ clubs, that exist under the line. I’ve walked into them, and you have to pay some huge ‘membership fee’ to get in the Asian room, but my asian friends (oriental in this case), were able to walk right in. I would say that I see a bit more prejudice against blacks in the Asian community, not there isn’t a lot in the white community.
So, there are all types, I think.
Racism always has a power component, while I think everyone has some unconscious prejudice.
Also, the sad truth is, as was mentioned above, there is a much larger percentage of stree people who are black, in the city.
Myself, I tend to ‘clothes prejudice’. If I see someone dressed well, then I have no issue with them, race aside (this is walking down the street, etc). If there some sketchy white rasta dude, who smells, walking and weaving down the street – and there is quite a angry street drug hippie vibe in the Castro, as an example – I want nothing to do with it. And yeah, I react accordingly. And the same would be true with the Tenderloin, and the street people there, the fact being that a large percentage which are black.
Also now, the MONEY in San Francisco, well, it’s pricing nearly everyone out except for pretty well off yuppies (same in Marin), so the main feeling is a type of narrow white liberal mindset, full of themselves smart guys/gals, which does have a lot of the aspects that are referred to in the article. Especially a place like Noe Valley, which is smug well-off baby yuppie factory central.
Once, driving through Bayshore, with a group of tech friends from work (a couple of Brazilians, very dark East Indian (Chennai), Sikh east indian woman, an Asian woman from Taiwan, and me, a white guy – at a stoplight, group of black guys pounded on the back of the car, saying things like “get the fuck out of here!! this ain’t your neighborhood!”.
which scare people in the car, of course.
At any rate, there’s all type of currents, and cross-currents. That essay is guilty of the some of the same simplistic reductionism that he’s pointing out.
MattR
@lamh34:
If ya think it’s bad on the liberal blogs …
Tell me about it. Anytime anything Canadian comes up in conversation all my friends turn to me ;-)
Bob Loblaw
@Corner Stone:
Derailment, my good sir. Derailment.
junebug
@LiberalTarian:
BULLSHIT.
When white men do the same thing, I’m sure you marry them or at least sleep with them.
Fucking white women. I have always said that the worst people in the world are white women. They fuck things up for the rest of us and see themselves as special.
I AM a WHITE WOMAN and call this BULLSHIT.
Uncle Clarence Thomas
.
.
I take a back seat to no one in my hatred of whitey! (Except for my wife, but as you can all imagine, that’s a little different, since I’m the Master in that relationship.) (Oh, and President Obama, of course, who has totally transcended his hateful white heritage.) (Furthermore, in the same way that progressives prefer the depraved President Obama to any even more depraved Republican, I prefer lefty racists over righty racists, seeing as they are the lesser of two evils.) (Also too, nobody’s perfect, but that inadvertent whitey racism is just as bad as the advertent version.) (Finally, is there any way to get rid of liberal whitey’s manifet racism, but still take advantage of that endless supply of liberal white guilt?) (Not that anyone should purposefully do that, of course.)
.
.
lamh34
@Just Some Fuckhead:
here’s the thing, yes, it’s worse on the conservative side of the tubes, BUT, and this is a big but, conserv are not known to be the party of inlucsive policies and platforms that most minorities want to be a part of.
The Dems are SUPPOSED to be the inclusive party, but in terms of actual major FPer’s of minorty descents on the liberal blogs, they ARE better than conserv counterparts, but still as diffuse within the lib-blogsosphere as one should except of the BETTER MORE INCLUSIVE party.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Uncle Clarence Thomas:
lolz
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@ruemara: Holy rollerskating fuck. That is 17 kinds of wrong and I thought better of California. But then, I was once described as one “who appears to be of white descent” so I did not experience anything like that in SF when I visited.*
* I am indeed Caucasian, of quite boring British Isles ancestry.
300baud
@junebug:
I agree mostly. People should own their bullshit. Nobody has a right to make their problems your problems.
On the other hand, I think it’s very hard to be perfectly unprejudiced. Anybody who claims otherwise is either a bodhisattva (lucky them!) or isn’t paying attention. I could believe it’s easy for most people to refrain from overt acts of racism in everyday circumstances. I have no problem with that, anyhow. But as those Project Implicit tests show, and as any person who is sufficiently different knows, the overt behaviors are just the tip of the iceberg.
So in that context, I think what Guster said is reasonable. Some people aren’t willing to accept that they even could be prejudiced. For them, an article like Tim Wise’s is helpful. But I don’t think that realization is the end of the road; it’s the beginning. It’d be nice if we could get started on the rest of the work.
Just Some Fuckhead
@lamh34: Meh, no one is stopping ABL from blogging. She has her own blog and no one is making her walk away here.
Yeah, there’s a lot of white folks that blog but there are a lot of white folks period. The Council of Concerned Citizens didn’t ring up John one day and tell him there was a slot open for a white blogger. His dumb ass just went and did it.
Corner Stone
@lamh34:
Work it GF!
slag
@Bob Loblaw:
The funny thing is that back in the day, I honestly thought the internet could provide the left’s answer to the noise machine. I had it in my silly little head that after Obama was elected, it would be Faux, Drudge, Hot Air, etc vs. Kos, FDL, BJ, MJ, etc. And that when the righties brought the noise, the left would be right there to quiet things down again so that the real work could get done. I, in other words, was an idiot. What else is new?
MattR
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Are you outing yourself as a member of said council?
Corner Stone
I love, love it that Big Media Matt drops in at 5:30 today on the “fundamental question” thread. All internet tough guy and shit like Dirty Harry asking if some punk is feeling lucky.
“Do you wanna debate policy? Well, do ya punk?”
https://balloon-juice.com/2011/04/12/the_fundamental_question/#comment-2530890
Just Some Fuckhead
Speaking as a white man that very often suggests casual sex as sort of an icebreaker – usually to pretty new young hires at work – I want to second what junebag said. No one has a monopoly on bad manners.
JC
It’s always interesting to read, for example, the OKCupid blog, which runs a lot of datasets, and where people don’t really lie, since they are anonymous. And race matters a lot in messaging.
Black women are responded to the least, and asian women, out of all women, are less likely to respond to a black man.
Lots of good data in that post.
junebug
@wasabi gasp:
jeff goldwhatever at protein wizdom has already done that. Remember when John Cole defended jeff goldwhatever? to the hilt? jeff goldwhatever and his ‘friends’ tried to out him.
However, but. carry on!
lamh34
@Just Some Fuckhead:
the comment you linked to was a general observation on the blogosphere from MY OWN perspective. Nothing to do with ABL, here, I was talking about liberal blogosphere as a whole.
I am aware that ABL has NOT been stopped from blogging. and I have a feeling u know that I was talking in general terms anyway.
Mark S.
I’ve got to hand it to Mr. Wise: he responds to damn near everyone who leaves a comment. Now that’s a full service blog!
jwb
@Corner Stone: I see you are auditioning for the job as well.
Just Some Fuckhead
If you people (and I mean everyone except Bob, not just the black folks) really cared about diversity, you’d ask John to promote me. Fuckheads are way underrepresented on the front page.
Just Some Fuckhead
@lamh34:
I actually thought you were extrapolating here to everywhere. But it doesn’t matter; you are right either way.
Bob Loblaw
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Fuckhead, you are owning this thread right now. Sadly, your kind is going the way of the dinosaurs in the political blogosphere it seems.
Because apparently we’re all supposed to be on Defcon eleven billion over a President who is 99% certain to get reelected. Eighteen months before the election.
junebug
@300baud:
You have just negated my entire life.
Thanks.
Corner Stone
@jwb: I’ve always aspired to a position of authority and respect in the online community.
Really I just want to limit debate, frame it the way it suits me best, and repeatedly threaten to expel anyone who doesn’t take my bullying bullshit.
Sadly, to date, I have fallen far short of my goal.
Just Some Fuckhead
I’m just doing my little part to bring tensions down. Third child in a broken home, blah blah blah.
Larkspur
I hate us.
Anne Laurie
@Corner Stone:
Except the “Ombudsman” didn’t actually go the fvck away, he just pulled his email so people couldn’t address him directly. And now his little Loogie friend is front-paging too, also without owning his stuff except passive-aggressively. My first thought on ABL’s post here was that she’s taking a few days for anti-carpal-tunnel exercises, building up the wrist strength necessary to scroll past two cement-heads churning out vast wads of doughy prose. More power to her, in that endeavor and all her others. But I’m sure we haven’t seen the last of her.
As for the Hall Monitor, don’t worry, somebody’s bound to be RAAAAAACIST on the
internetBJ site soon enough, and he’ll never be able to give over his self-appointed duty to enlarge our limited horizons. Anybody who can actually name his personal blog ‘I Was Told There’s Be Ponies’ is immune to certain general interpretations.DonkeyKong
Bullworth: All we need is a voluntary, free-spirited, open-ended program of procreative racial deconstruction. Everybody just gotta keep fuckin’ everybody ’til they’re all the same color.
Mark
@Just Some Fuckhead: Oddly enough, I was once pretty clearly denied service in a restaurant in Fargo, ND because my girlfriend who was withme was (East) Indian. And the only place I’ve ever heard someone scream a racial epithet at a black person was Winnipeg, Manitoba.
At any rate, this notion that San Francisco is the most racist place people have ever been is fucking ridiculous. Classist, sure. But the article linked to has *zero* evidence of said racism. No examples, nothing.
Having lived here for 12 years, I can actually come up with some examples, though:
1) San Francisco – the city, not the Bay Area – did a lot of “urban renewal” 30-40 years ago, and the net result was moving a lot of African-American renters into public housing. The quality of public housing here is pretty suspect, and the city is intentionally allowing individual units to get condemned even while someone’s living next door. The intent is to condemn entire housing projects, knock them down, and no longer use the land for public housing. (At the same time, the city closed the coal-fired power plant in the Bayview; a city that truly hated African-Americans wouldn’t have cared about respiratory illnesses in the Bayview.)
One of the results of this policy is that you don’t have a strong black middle class in San Francisco – unlike Los Angeles, for example. But here I see classism as a big issue – middle-class minorities would not be as disliked.
2) You often hear euphemisms like “Oakland”, “East Bay” or “kids from the East Bay” to describe African-American people. Halloween in the Castro was a great example – people blamed violence on the three quoted groups but never had to bring themselves to say that they were convinced “young black thugs” were “ruining” their city.
3) There is a pretty strong streak of anti-black racism in the gay community. It’s undeniable.
But there’s no way that what goes on in San Francisco compares to what happens elsewhere in the country. I lived with a number of people from the south in grad school in Berkeley and jesus fucking christ, the shit that came out of their mouths was unbearable. And they’d say garbage like “If you lived around as many black people as we did, you’d be racist like us. You Yankees think you’re so enlightened but you’ve only lived around white people.” etc, etc…I’m sorry, but that’s a whole other level compared to what people in San Francisco have to say.
Another issue – San Francisco’s ethnic breakdown is roughly as follows:
33% – White
33% – Asian
25% – Hispanic
8% – African-American
So whatever’s going on here is not some simple white liberal racism.
Many other points to be made, but bottom line: FFS, San Francisco is not the most racist place in the country, not by a long shot.
Corner Stone
@Bob Loblaw:
Bob,
As a scary Muslim type person, surely you know that the lower you go toward 1 the more super scary the conditions are said to be.
junebug
@Larkspur:
It easy not to be racist. Really it is.
ruemara
@junebug:
Now, now. Black, White, Asian, Latino, Middle Eastern, African mens say some dumbass things some times. Just like the women. I won’t say it’s bullshit. We all have experiences. This is more one of misogyny, but it very well may be valid.
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): I lived. What I would appreciate is a fair chance at a job. I haven’t had a decent one in 10 years. The economic impact of bigotry is the real damage. To contrast, everyone I know in the same field has held down the same job in that time frame and has earned far more money than I have. My world and contacts have shrunk, all the more to my detriment. The harsher the econ, the more the job market is connections, and softer considerations of culture, personality fit and frankly, the mental image of who they see in that position. Some of this ‘Recovery™’ needs to trickle down to me. You can only make do for so long.
lamh34
@Anne Laurie:
I think ur right about this Anne. ABL is an actual working lawyer isn’t she, I’m guessing she probably got a LOT to do and she just needs a break from the BS and can get some stuff done while she takes that break.
jwb
@Bob Loblaw: Yeah, and what the fuck is going on with the Goopers that they have ceded it to him?
I don’t know, it’s still a little early to declare the end of the GOP field, and a billion dollars will buy a competitive race even if you are running a toxic asset like Sarah!
wasabi gasp
@junebug: I have no idea what you said but yes, I’ll sleep with you.
junebug
@Anne Laurie:
sorry Anne Lauri, the S.A. freddie was dead on arrival.
did you not do your research?
Anne Laurie
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Yeah, I miss Steve Gilliard too. But now Oliver Willis is gonna have to kill you.
junebug
@wasabi gasp:
We’ve been doing this dance for a long time. I think we could have great sex, but I’m not interested in that way.
Larkspur
@junebug:
Nope. It is, however, easy to not act racist. And that is a start.
But the hatin’ on us thing, that’s because at the moment, we’re not engaging so much as being mean to each other. I’ll get over it. I’m kind of already over it.
JC
Agree with Mark.
Also, dude, I was with my (also east indian) girlfriend, and a few other friends (pretty integrated crowd, a lot of people from Academy of Arts) the night of the Castro Halloween stabbings. I saw those black gang guys who were starting shit with another gang. We moved on, but they a few minutes later, the shit went down.
Being raised in Texas initially, there is NO WAY that San Francisco compares, not in a million years.
Sometimes yes, classism and racism mix. And San Fran certainly has a lot of classism.
furioso ateo
Who the hell are the Ombudsman and the Hall Monitor? Are we still talking about BJ here?
Ronc99
Angry Black Lady,
If you are still reading these comments, you are the *only* reason I came to this blogsite.
Thank you so much for sharing Tim Wise’s work with us. It has opened up my eyes to my own bias. Education is always key.
You ROCK and I wish you nothing but the best!!!
Bob Loblaw
@Corner Stone:
Oh shit, my terror commander is so gonna have me beheaded for that screwup. Well, it’s been a good run. Death to America, and could somebody please make sure my dog is fed and taken care of? Thanks.
Bill D.
@junebug
I’ve got over three decades of adulthood working with lots of people of all races, nationalities from all over the world, etc. and I’ve never been called racist. So what?
I’m still, to my frustration, racist. Not in a vicious way, certainly, but in subtle but persistent ways that I try to be aware of and learn from. Even if I never succeed in getting rid of all of this racism, I can at least do my best to not harm anyone and not pass it on to others.
I have no doubt that you sincerely believe that you are not racist. That, and not ever being called a racist, does not mean you are not. Anyone, including hard-core racists, can and will claim and believe that they are not racist themselves. So what?
wasabi gasp
@junebug: Don’t be so sure. I have ways up the wazoo.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Bob Loblaw:
Yeah, I see where yer coming from. I’m wired a little differently. As far as I’m concerned, except during election season, he works for me and not the other way around. I was a dutiful Obot when he was running, even going so far as to smack John around a coupla times for not being loyal enough. But when he got the job, he now works for me. It’s not my job to get up every day and affirm him. It’s his job to satisfy me, the voter, if he wants my vote again.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Anne Laurie:
Yeah yeah. There’s Brown Sox too, over at DKOS, right?
Martin
I think there’s a notable difference between the south and places like SF when it comes to racism. I don’t know exactly how to nutshell it, though.
In my experience the south is still incredibly expressively racist – vastly, tremendously so more than places like SF. The difference is that in the south, the racist language dial gets turned up to 11 as soon as the last black person leaves the room. In places like SF, that doesn’t happen. Racist language still comes out, but it’s much less conscious than in the south.
Now, racist treatment is a different ballgame, and I think that’s much more uniform nationally, and certainly worse in places like the tech community as rumera notes in #32 above. That ‘fit’ thing doesn’t just catch certain minorities, it catches all kinds of groups – overweight, older, etc. A lot of these places are just narrow stripes of 20/30-something white/asian/indian doughy-but-not-fat geeks. What’s interesting is that in my experience sexual identity has never been a meaningful barrier. You’re vastly better off being a transgender white guy trying to get a job in the tech corridor than Barack Obama. It’s just the opposite in Alabama. But if you get a bunch of hiring managers together from CA, none will ever, ever suggest that they didn’t hire someone because of race. If you do the same in the south, they’ll admit to it readily. The treatment is still there, but I think because the behavior is more conscious in the south, it’s much better hidden.
So to white people, the racism in liberal communities isn’t expressed openly because I think it’s more subconscious (not that the recipient of that racist treatment gives a shit – they just got fucked either way). But as soon as we go visit the branch office in Louisiana and it’s just white folks in the room, man the racism hits you like a punch in the face. It’s just shocking. Everything is expressed in terms of race – “This is where the black people live, that’s where the white ones do. I have a black neighbor but it’s okay, he’s a doctor.” It’s amazing when you go and meet 5 new people and their individual ways to bond with you is to recruit you into the privileged white club. Not just one outlier, but every single person individually.
At least, that’s all been my experience. 20 years here in CA I’ve never had a conversation with someone that included derogatory statements toward African Americans. Mexicans, sure. Asians, a few times. Gays, etc. sure. Democrats, all the fucking time (OC). I don’t think I was in Georgia more than 2 hours before someone complained about the blacks.
Corner Stone
edited because I’m going to bed and it’s too late for anything but snark
Just Some Fuckhead
@junebug:
Don’t listen to him. You’re awesome. It’s the rest of the world that’s all fucked up.
Anne Laurie
@junebug:
Lady, the first time I ran across you on this blog, you were misunderstanding another commentor’s former perfectly innocuous nym to accuse her of what you INSISTED WITH MANY FORMS OF EMPHASIS were horrible and unacceptable sexual practices. When she replied, no, that ex-nym was based on a fictional live-action web comic, you escalated the level of tantruming in a flurry of replies so little to the point of the original discussion that I actually worried you might be trapped in a hostage situation and desperately signalling for help.
If, in the meatverse, you introduce yourself with anywhere near such… intensity… I’m not surprised people are very, very polite around you. Nobody wants to be the bystander who joggles the loose pin out of the rolling grenade.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Corner Stone:
I was once thrown out of a topless bar for climbing up on the stage. Does that count?
Anne Laurie
@Larkspur: Welcome to the grown-up table.
Martin
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Steinbrenner did it.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Anne Laurie:
Thanks, I just got the grenade stabilized.
Corner Stone
@Just Some Fuckhead: Yeah, I edited out that comment because the hookers and blow are here now.
But just so everyone knows I’m not racist or anything, one of ’ems AA and one of ’ems Asian.
Miss Kitkas's Comrade Wayne
@Martin:
So you know all about hiring in Louisiana?
/no snark I like you.
MattR
@Anne Laurie:
Thanks for the perfect laugh before heading to bed.
slag
@Just Some Fuckhead:LOL!
@Just Some Fuckhead: ETA Pro-tip: Funny is better than creepy in almost all cases.
Just Some Fuckhead
Speaking of scarce minorities, I was talking about my alma mater, Bob Jones University, with a drinking buddy and he said, “Isn’t that the place black people are barred from attending?” I was like, “no way man, they integrated a few years back, they got like a dozen AAs that go there now.”
He replies, “I bet you they know where they are at all times.” Then he fakes a bullhorn and announces “Number 9, step away from the white woman!”
Funny stuff. Hurtful, of course. But funny.
Anne Laurie
@furioso ateo: You have not yet been thoroughly inculcated with the local tribal grievances. Count your blessings, and keep scrolling.
Martin
@Just Some Fuckhead: No. Next time just take your top off before you do it and you’ll be fine.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@Just Some Fuckhead: cool. go make me a sandwich whatever you are.
JC
Just Some Fuckhead,
What’s up? You are really on tonight. I haven’t seen someone so consistently humorous on these threads, since the ‘good old days’ of Doug (DougJ maybe?) having lots of fun at Cole’s expense (All the other Jane Mayer’s who are not Jane Mayer).
I’d say you are a sock puppet for him, but I’d prefer to think that BJ is just blessed.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Anne Laurie: Well?
Anne Laurie
@Martin: Then he better be at least a C-cup, or there’s still gonna be a hail of plastic mugs and used napkins.
ETA: … or so I’ve been told.
Yutsano
@furioso ateo: HOLY FUCKING SHIT YOU’RE STILL ALIVE!! Where the hell have you been you Dawg? :)
Tim in SF
“This is the most racist place I’ve ever lived,”
It’s clear he’s never been to Burning Man.
Just Some Fuckhead
@JC:
I heard there might be an opening for a front pager so I figured I’d strut my stuff a little.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal: Go make yer own sammich. I’m twokkin heya.
Cynical and Bored
Tim Wise rocks. ABL? Not so much. I won’t miss her drama and shallow rage. Although I imagine she’ll be back. Isn’t this the third time she’s gone all GBCW?
Martin
@Miss Kitkas’s Comrade Wayne: Ok, that was too much of an overgeneralization, but I’ve seen it happen. Never seen anything like that here in CA. I’ve seen subtle effects of racism here with respect to African Americans, and don’t get me wrong – when the outcome is that the black candidate doesn’t get offered the job, it doesn’t matter how subtle or overt it is, the damage is all the same – but never overt. The most common form of discrimination I see here is where you got your degree from. I’ve contracted at multiple places that wouldn’t hire anyone unless they graduated from USC. Lots of shit like that, and baked into that kind of discrimination is an intentional or unintentional effort to get a demographic that looks like USCs (which in my experience is that they want to hire not-too-bright assholes.)
But I have a hard time looking past having more conversations about who the ‘okay blacks are’ from the airport to the hotel in the south than I’ve had in 20 years in California.
Yutsano
@Just Some Fuckhead: Snarkitude of your ability would be too meta for this blog I’m afraid. Plus it’s not a paying gig. Though I am curious as to how you plan to divulge to your blushing bride your budding homosexuality. And welcome to the club.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Yutsano:
I haven’t decided if I’m going to stick with it yet. I can’t even brush my tongue without throwing up.
cbear
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Dayum dude, you really are an outlaw. Was this before or after you shot that man in Reno?
Just Some Fuckhead
@cbear:
I have done some stupid shit.
Martin
@Anne Laurie: In my exceedingly limited experience at topless bars (I’m really embarrassingly bad at being a hetero guy) pretty much everyone in the room, male or female is at least a C cup.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Martin:
Never been to one that kinky but I can respect it.
furioso ateo
@Yutsano Uh, I’m fine, I’m more of a lurker than a regular commenter I guess. I have a regular 730-5 now that keeps me too busy to follow the comments, mostly. Also not had regular computer access for like 6 months until now.
Also, like three people have referenced my comment, but is no one going to directly answer it?
Just Some Fuckhead
Gonna crash too. Gotta replace the copper supply line to the dishwasher in the morning. Being a man sucks.
Martin
@furioso ateo: Oh, Ombudsman refers to a statement ED Kain made that either explicitly or implicitly suggested he was the BJ ombudsman. He got jumped on pretty hard for that. I think Hallmonitor must refer to Freddie deBoer.
I already went through junior high, so I skip past most of the petty homeroom bullshit, but I think that’s who the references are.
Tim in SF
I live in San Francisco. I don’t see overt racism; instead I see a lot of people bending over backwards to not appear racist at all.
Though, I do get some very odd reactions when people see my black roommate for the first time.
Still, like I said before, I don’t think San Francisco is one tenth as racist as Burning Man.
furioso ateo
@ Hey, thanks, that makes this comment thread a whole lot clearer.
cbear
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Yeah, but it shore does beat sucking a man.
(YMMV)
300baud
@junebug:
No problem. I’ve always found it helpful. For me, that’s a good time to start a new one.
Anne Laurie
@Martin: Yeah, so I’ve been told…
For the Spousal Unit’s bachelor party, his acolytes insisted on taking him to the (locally) notorious Golden Banana. And they were bitterly disappointed when, after a polite 20 minutes or so, he demanded they move on to the all-night mini-golf range. But they did buy him the t-shirt, in blaze orange, with the lady-in-a-cocktail-glass-holding-a-giant-banana logo.
He told me later that the lap-dancer’s extremely visible enhancement scars were only getting him depressed, but it didn’t seem like the gentlemanly thing to share that impression with the younger guys.
Lupin
One story/anecdote doesn’t mean anything, but I thought I’d report this:
I have a friend who is French/American (naturalized), born from white French mother and an African (Burkina Faso) father. He moved from Paris to New York when he was 18 and has worked in the film industry (as an artist) in L.A. and, less often, in San Francisco. He speaks perfect English with a mid-Atlantic accent.
According to him, he has experienced negative racist attitudes traveling through the South, more rarely in New York, never in L.A. or San Francisco.
Could there be something more cultural than just the color of the skin?
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@Anne Laurie:
the funny thing about strippers, there really isn’t a singular body type that banks. the big boobed blonde has its place, no doubt, but mostly amongst the “never goes to strip clubs” type.
i have been to plenty, have friends who are quite the regulars, most of them avoid those women, specifically because their appeal is to the amateur clients(custies as the ladies call them, expanded to crusties, pl pathetic losers etc),and guys with their friends conspicuously trying to have a good time…
those women get a lot of hype and attention, but they don’t necessarily bank. small breasts are extremely popular amongst the regulars, who, by being regulars, more or less assure their favorites a steady and lucrative income.
another oddity, if the club lets a stripper do the bare foot bit on stage, she is guaranteed to make a killing at it.
Martin
@Anne Laurie: I’m like he is. It just doesn’t work for me. I don’t know what it stems from exactly, but I’m very uncomfortable when someone is doing something and I’m not participating. If you’re working and I’m just sitting there, that drives me crazy. Contractors come and work on my house and even though I’m paying them, I either need to help or leave.
Since my daughter was born, forget it. As uncomfortable as I would have been at a strip club before, not working while someone else does, now I just see people’s daughters. Can’t do it. I want to go through the place and beat everyone to death with a shovel.
SST
Anybody know if there’s a video of Obama’s speech? I missed it and wanna give it a watch.
Martin
@SST: http://www.whitehouse.gov/
They put out very nice quality video as well.
Martin
I should add that there’s also a Q&A video with a member of the National Economic Council that followed the speech. Not dramatically illuminating, but it does firm up some of the things that Obama mentioned in his speech.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/photos-and-video/video/2011/04/13/open-questions-americas-fiscal-future
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@junebug:
It’s true. And from time to time it works. Not even close to 50% of the time, but…
Lysana
Why, yes, there are racists here. Pity everyone derailed it to discussions of San Francisco’s race issues. Typical avoidance problem.
Mrs. Polly
@Anne Laurie: If you believe that putting extra As in “racist” automatically negates any need to contemplate whether racism may or may not be involved, perhaps you should Google the term and see what wonderful people employ this technique.
With its implication that the writer is embittered and embattled, with intimations of disrespect for people claiming they have suffered from racism, it seems like a good term to avoid.
Cpuppy
I am a recent mid-west transplant that was born in a Kansas “Sun-down” town, lived in rural Minnesota, Michigan, then after working in Detroit, New York, Boston, and now I think i have certainly found my final area in San Francisco.
I work for a top interactive/digital ad agency in the city, and I work with the most diverse crew in all levels, and certainly the highest ratio of African Americans, Latino, Chimoro, gay, transexual, etc. and not only do we work together no matter if they bought a house in Oakland because SF is getting kinda pricey for a backyard or what not, the mix continues after work to the parties and bar hopping as well.
No city I have ever lived in is perfect, and as a white male understand there are some parts of the city I may not see, but close to 50% of the company are transplants and the consus is almost completely opposite what the article was talking about. (with the exception of the north bay).
Okay, the only person I knew left the bay area because they felt persecuted was a very conservative mormon from the mid-west who moved back as people would drink alcohol at some company functions and not everyone was at least christian at work.
Just my 2 cents, believe me I know it ain’t perfect here, but SF is better than any where I have lived, and proud to be able to raise my kids here in the future.
p mac
To some extent this is just one facet of a larger problem:
if there is an entrenched power structure, the status quo tends not to change.
So SF and Seattle (and presumably Portland) have the same entrenched viewpoints they had 30 years ago because the majority view isn’t being challenged.
These are cities with a strong democratic political machine, so a lot of politics (for democrats) is just going through the motions. Without struggle, there is little introspection. The root cause here is political stagnation, not racism at the individual level.
In the South, there has been a real struggle, so there is more genuine progress.
Bob L
@Mark: “Another issue – San Francisco’s ethnic breakdown is roughly as follows:
33% – White
33% – Asian
25% – Hispanic
8% – African-American
So whatever’s going on here is not some simple white liberal racism.”
There is an almost open race war between Mexicans and blacks in California. Every Mexican guy I have ever meet openly loathes blacks.
And anyone who thinks the Bay Area is full of hippies needs to come to my work in the East Bay and meet my Christians fundie Bush Fan Boi libertarian bosses. I can also introduce you to my FDA employee, libertarian WND fan boi (sort of) friend. Sufficient to say there are plenty of racist, white male conservatives to do around even in the bluest of blue.
kay
Hi ABL. I don’t understand the message but if it’s goodbye I (personally) hope you reconsider.
I read your posts, so I know one of the things that drives you crazy is the “primary Obama” thing.
You may well know this (I don’t know what your level of involvement with the actual Democratic Party is) but it’s nonsense. It’s akin to the entirely media and blog generated idea that Hillary Clinton (or her delegates) were going to dramatically break ranks and pull some procedural wizardry at or prior to the convention.
That was imaginary. It was never going to happen. No delegate thought it was going to happen, and no state Party person thought it was going to happen.
Obama is a Democrat, and despite attempts to pretend that he isn’t a member and the leader of the Democratic party, he IS. That fact was all but completely accepted after Super Tuesday in the primary.
Obama will be compared to other Democratic Presidents. That’s the measure. He won’t be compared to some hypothetical President, or some romanticized view of past Democratic Presidents, because no one uses that measure.
He’s doing just fine, using that measure :)
kindness
Having spent the last 35 years of my life in and around Oakland, I can kind of see what this person is saying. I was defensive reading this. The Bay Area is worlds away from the NYC suburbs I grew up in. There’s racism both places but it’s different here in California. Less up front. Less overt. Out here, you are expected to at least treat everyone the same as a starting point.
The invisibility thing…here in California, it transcends race. Everyone is invisible. Unlike NY where people build up full on walls so they live in their own world in a city of 8 million, in Oakland and in California in general, you live in your own head too, but different than the east. Out here, you aren’t anchored by what you came from, what your family was like back east. It’s freeing that way. One can be judged on their own, not limited to their past.
The bias I experienced as a long haired Deadhead white boy happened, but nothing like the racism people find with people of color.
My opinion of the article and statement about the Bay Area, well, it isn’t usual to find such treatment, but an outlier. It’s out there, but you have the opportunity to choose where in your head you want to be. The place this person describes is not the place I chose to be. So I will part saying this certainly could happen, but it isn’t the norm.
ornery curmudgeon
Many blacks are extremely homophobic. That this wasn’t mentioned in the article or this post means that blacks are more prejudiced than any white person from Macon, Georgia.
Because we expect prejudice from Macon, Georgia.
Great arguments here.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@kay: Agree with kay. It is either disinformation spread by the
wingnut wurlitzeradversary or its fight promoting by the media.The media and the Village are all about “fair”, equal time for both sides and not appearing liberal-biased, but they are really just fight promoters. The have to pretend conservatives are “serious” and “thoughtful” so there can actually be two sides. No one pays to see a shut out.
Then you have concern trolls blowing up Obama threads because liberals naturally doubt and cogitate. That is the advantage the Right has. Their base never doubts.
YellowDog
After reading through the comments, I have to conclude this was an experiment by ABL. She has demonstrated that, for too many liberals/progressives, it’s all about them. “Is it something we said?” Anyone who has followed ABL’s posts, or read her own blog, knows that her life has it’s complexities. Perhaps those are invisible to some readers. If indeed she is leaving BJ, permanently or temporarily, that is her business, and what she chooses to share is her business. She doesn’t have to tell me.
WereBear
That was how it was explained to me, too.
I try to pull back and take a general humanitarian approach; in this case, pressing your nose against a tree will make you miss the whole forest.
Lawnguylander
@Mrs. Polly:
See now, I thought it was in fact a Michelle Malkin impersonation she’s been working on for our amusement. I think I remember her trying it out in that Geraldine Ferraro thread but with less As that time. This ones closer to the mark and I suggest that she stick to the same number of As so as BJ can move up the Google rankings.
Tuttle
I had a boss in Tennessee who said openly racist things to me sometimes, but he hired, worked with and patronized black workers and businesses. I had a boss in Chicago who was quite pleasant, never said a bad word about anybody but refused to even deal with black folks. She was, in fact, gobsmacked that I actually lived on the south side.
Simple fact is, on the far north side of Chicago you don’t HAVE to deal with black folks. In Chattanooga you do not have a choice. Racists a plenty in both places, just a more practical, practiced, but no less nasty and virulent, version in the south.
However, my issue with this article is that it assumes that any leftist arguments that aren’t “deal with racism directly” are ineffective. I happen to believe racism, as opposed to simple xenophobia, is an artifact of capitalism and that racial justice will be an end result of economic justice. No, simply giving a black person more money is not going to magically erase a systematic, institutional problem. Changing classes is not the answer. Smashing class as a concept is the answer (one of them at least).
Chris
@Martin:
I call it George Wallace racism versus Richard Nixon racism.
The former is the blunt, unapologetic, almost stereotypical “segregation now, segregation forever” creed that most people these days reject. The latter is a much more subtle and broad-based appeal to racial demons. It resonated with former Dixiecrats, but much more importantly it resonated with the mainstream, moderate and even “liberal” white guys – often people who’d supported desegregation but 1) still didn’t feel comfortable around nonwhite people personally, 2) were “alienated” by the backlash of things like the urban riots, 3) thought enforcing desegregation in private as well as public areas was going too far, 4) thought too many black people were ungrateful and didn’t appreciate “all we’ve done for them”… the list goes on.
Trakker
Am I surprised? Well, yes, but as I drill down into this maybe not so much.
I’ve spent more time in France than SF. African American friends tell me they love vacationing in France (and Europe in general) because they get far more respect in Europe than in most of America. But I suspect that’s because they are not a perceived threat (numbers, not violence) to the French’s comfortable traditional white society. Venture into Paris’s African suburbs and you will see a far different racial attitude.
I was a PTA president of an elementary school that was turning from majority white to majority non-white and I saw how many “liberal” parents bailed out of the neighborhood. Alas, not everyone in SF is a liberal, and not all liberals are comfortable with equality or inclusion – in practice.
sixers
Good riddance. She was a drama queen in the non homophobic slur kind of way. I will not miss the over done exclamation points or the conclusion jumping.
Angry Lurker
@lamh34: lamh34@lamh34:
I like big buts and I cannot lie!
:)
Stillwater
So ABL has decided to post her hyperbolic Obama-slobbering in the echo chamber of her own tiny blog rather than deal with the fact that some liberals don’t like Obama? Is that right?
Fucking loser.
Chris
@Trakker:
You’d be right. Although the main source of freakout these days is Arabs, not Africans, but society is racist as hell towards them – everything mentioned in this thread and then some. If anything, the immigration-rage is worse there than it is in the U.S.
Angry Lurker
@Anne Laurie:
I am prejudiced against bloggers who can’t get to the point in less than 1000 words. For this reason I disliked ABL’s posts on BJ. The rant about her tweet-war with Joan Walsh ran almost 6000 words(!) No, I didn’t read the whole thing. Not enough time in the day, and I’m currently unemployed!
Please note: ABL is not the ONLY front-pager I have a problem with. Most of you could benefit from studying John Cole’s admirable skill at making his points succinctly
Just my opinion…
Omnes Omnibus
@Stillwater: There is also the possibility that she has real life job, personal, health, etc., issues with which to deal and is scaling back on blogging for a bit. I have no idea what is going on, but, call me irresponsible, I am not going to speculate.
Angry Lurker
@Omnes Omnibus:
No need to speculate. http://www.angryblacklady.com/2011/04/13/obama-2012-teamfuckyeah/#more-46634
A few choice tweets:
“It is AMAZING how myopic and and unable to view the world from outside their bubble some white lefties are. I don’t know why I bother.”
“You know, you TRY to reach people. You TRY to put it in layperson’s terms. But some people just know what’s best. So the rest should STFU.”
“BUT NO ONE FUCKING LISTENS. So fine. Have your policy talks and your pie-in-the sky roundtable discussions about whatthefuckever.”
“Elitist pricks. I’m done with it. It’s a waste of my fucking time. You white liberals need to figure your shit out. Stop speaking for me.”
“But at least I’m trying and I won’t be used as some sort of token to be mocked and crapped on. Fuck that.”
“That ass is now on BJ. And I’m out. I don’t need this shit in my life.”
–ABL’s hypocrisy and lack of self-awareness would be funny if the issues involved weren’t so serious. But I will admit that she’s a lot easier to take in tweet form.
sixers
I’m going to speculate this is a poorly thought out cry for attention.
Omnes Omnibus
@Angry Lurker: Oh.
Stillwater
@Omnes Omnibus: Well, you’re anti-speculatory speculation is surely possible, and warranted. But the evidence seems to suggest otherwise. She could have pre-empted any speculation by merely including the words you just wrote in the post – whether they are true or not. Seems to me more like the hissy fits she throws when threads don’t proceed along ABL-approved lines.
ETA: Guess the answer is in after all.
Stillwater
WTF?
Stillwater
This refers to Freddie? WTF? Apparently the ‘shit she doesn’t need in her life’ is people who disagree with her. Good fucking riddance.
sixers
In the post she cites as the reason she can’t post here anymore because the author(Freddie) now does she seems angry that someone would question Obama on the lack of due process for american citizens like Padilla went through with Bush. I was waiting for it to be some sort of racist thing she was mad about but questioning something 99% of liberals were pissed about when GWB was in office and now applying that same questioning to Obama and being mad about that is freaking odd. I’m in the tank for Obama. Theres no way I’m not voting for him and I’m even(gasp)a white guy but even I can’t say I’m happy with Obama’s stance on that issue and if someone said they couldnt vote for him because of that you have to respect their opinion. Certainly not something to lose your shit over.
kindness
@Stillwater: Dude….you must have posted this under the wrong thread. Your dumb ass statement has nothing to do with this article.
Paul in KY
@Just Some Fuckhead: So far, Freddie hasn’t impressed me. I really like ABL & am sorry to see her pissed.
Stillwater
@sixers: I think it was Freddie saying he’s not gonna vote for Obama next term. A claim he immediately back-tracked on when called out. But even that isn’t something to lose your shit over.
taylormattd
John, it’s because you are front paging a person who is either a stupid fucking Naderite moron, a stupid fucking Paulbot moron, or a stupid fucking PUMA.
sixers
@Stillwater:
I’ve never been called an elitist before. I’m wearing pants I’ve had for 7 years today.
Stillwater
@kindness: Try to live up to your handle, Dumbass. Read the opening lines of the post.
Stillwater
@sixers: if someone said they couldnt vote for him because of that you have to respect their opinion. Certainly not something to lose your shit over.
Exactly. That’s what’s so strange. Having Freddie FP’d here would be an excellent opportunity to argue with Freddie and show him he’s wrong. Instead, she throws up her hands and criticizes ‘white liberals’ for needing to work out ‘their own shit’. Weird.
Paul in KY
@300baud: I did the age tests and at end it said ‘There were too many fast trials to determine a result.’.
In other words, I correctly hit the ‘e’ and ‘i’ keys so fast they could determine no bias. I did this kind of test years ago and it said then something like ‘it is very hard to determine your bias’.
I’m a weird dude ;-)
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Stillwater:
I agree with all of this save the final word. I wouldn’t call it “weird,” but I’m being pedantic. It wouldn’t be my response, but I’ve no right to say “weird,” as if it’s “wrong.” If you changed the last sentence from “weird” to “That seems counterproductive,” I’m totally with you.
JustMe
I’ve never been called an elitist before. I’m wearing pants I’ve had for 7 years today.
Only an elitist would be able to get away with wearing 7 year-old-pants. The rest of us have to look our best at all times. Stop rubbing it in our faces about how you can wear whatever you want while the rest of us have to dress well just to hold down a job.
/snark
YellowDog
@JustMe:
I couldn’t have said it better. The only addition I have is that I hope the pants have been washed once or twice.
Paul in KY
@Just Some Fuckhead: Here in KY, I’ve been in a deserted restaurant with 2 black friends & no service for like 10 mins, until I complained.
My friends said this kind of stuff happens more than it should. Black people (in general) sure have it rougher in USA than we whites do.
Stillwater
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Weird not as in ‘wrong’, but more like ‘I don’t get it’. Consider it so changed!
kindness
@Stillwater: Please forgive me from pointing out your lunacy in post # 194:
“So ABL has decided to post her hyperbolic Obama-slobbering in the echo chamber of her own tiny blog rather than deal with the fact that some liberals don’t like Obama? Is that right?
Fucking loser.”
Here I thought this thread was a discussion on racism as found in various places of America, not Obama-slobbering. And I am so sorry to have offended you by suggesting your post was not pertinent to the subject of the thread, more than a little Ad hominem attack, and calling you post ‘dumb ass’.
You must understand that while my screen name is indeed kindness, that doesn’t mean that is how I need to treat you. In the future though, I promise you I will ignore your blathering.
In all honesty, I suspect we agree on more than we don’t. Such is the beauty of life though, eh?
Stillwater
@kindness: Here I thought this thread was a discussion on racism as found in various places of America, not Obama-slobbering.
You’re clearly not aware of all internet traditions.
Corner Stone
@John Cole:
Hmmm. Post hoc ergo qui tam, this post all by itself proves you incorrect in that belief. Much less the quoted tweets.
srv
@Tim in SF:
Is guess this is poor snark, or you’re making his point for him, because San Franciscans and Bay Area folks easily make up a majority of BM attendees.
Corner Stone
@Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal: I’m thinking you and I need to start hanging out more.
RobinDC
Good fucking riddance, keep crying racism to the wind if you want, no one in the far left blogosphere is shitting on Obama after his deficit speech though so that puts to rest your assertion that all firebagger whining about Obama is racism. No it really is because he has failed to be a decent liberal president in many ways. This is how you handle difference in thought, maybe it’s time for some self-examination you whiny, histrionic loser, peace out.
Corner Stone
@Stillwater:
Probably for the best. She was a particularly divisive individual who enjoyed bullying and threatening people that disagreed with her. The intoxication of imbalanced power really tipped her over the edge. Her repeated attempts to drive a blog within a blog in-group caused quite a bit of petty nastiness.
ABL will most likely thrive in the echo chamber her fragile ego needs.
RobinDC
And for anyone who comes at me saying: “Oh but this post is about racism in San Francisco and other progressive enclaves,” no it isn’t. Fuck you and learn to read between the lines. ABL bitches and moans for a month about liberals getting on Obama’s case and calling them racist. Then all of a sudden for her final post she excerpts a piece about racism in liberal enclaves around the country? WTF; you are retarded if you can’t read this post for what it is, an admonition that liberals are racist and Obama is copping shit because he’s black.
x
An anecdote.
About 15 years ago, white Berkeley liberal suggested that Vallejo should use our excess housing for homeless shelters. I shot back, “Why, b/c black people live here? That would make Vallejo a homeless mecca. There are fewer homeless in Vallejo than in Berkeley. Why don’t you donate housing in Berkeley?”
A white woman I know, who is married to a Latino, makes disparaging remarks about Vallejo. Once she was driving on the _freeway,_ & saw some black people walking on an overpass, & deduced it was a bad neighborhood! I told her that area of town was _nice!_ And she has told me some offensive police jokes about Vallejo. If you look white you hear police jokes about black people. So, yes, they are biased.
A friend, a good Democrat, when I suggested she rent her in-law in the Berkeley foothills to a black RN, looked like I’d kicked her in the shin.
It’s everywhere. Which is why I love Vallejo. We have all colors, & WWB is not a crime.
It’s a great town.
A southern AA once told me she prefers southern racism b/c it’s up front, whereas here, it’s undercover. I can see how white liberals haven’t overcome the racism, but still, we can overcome it here. It’s a long-term effort, but we can and must do it.
I spent 3 of my formative years in NOLA during segregation, and I don’t ever want to go back.
You can at least raise some liberal guilt in SF. Southern whites don’t even have a problem w/the N word.
Stillwater
@RobinDC: What you write here would certainly explain ‘the shit’ ‘white liberals’ need to work out.
rollSound
I live in San Francisco, and it’s likely no more racist than any other gated community. (Any place with such high housing prices and cost-of-living is effectively that.)
I think most of us have a basic imperative to “keep out the riff-raff”. We will find ways to identify said riff-raff even in monoracial situations. Religions and now political beliefs depend on identifying and vilifying the “bad” people. That form of elitism or tribalism is present in all of us and most of us lack the self-awareness to avoid it.
From what I’ve seen, racism is just elitism for dummies.
Tim, Interrupted
I would like to note with pride that I was once banned by ABL. I consider it a badge of honor. :D
uptown
The gentleman should head on down to Orange county. Oh yeah, they wouldn’t even let him in.
Plenty of racism in CA and it doesn’t help that blacks tend to live apart from whites, unless they’re wealthy or sport types. Very little social interaction in most parts of CA.
Hope to see ABL back here again.
Uncle Clarence Thomas
@RobinDC:
.
.
So true, but that piece was written by a white, and therefore racist, liberal, so it has to be taken with a grain of, um, pepper.
.
.
Paula
Jesus, but these responses are predictable.
More suggested reading, if you think Tim Wise is hacking it:
“Speech Rules or Beliefs and Attitudes?” [2/2007]
The True Front of Progressivism [5/2007]
Progressive blogosphere MIA on Jena 6 [9/2007]
This has not been a good week for woman of color blogging [4/2008]
On Being Feminism’s “Ms. Nigga” [3/2011]
Mrs. Polly
I didn’t take ABL’s post as being aimed at **all** white liberals, or all white liberals at BJ. It seemed to me that ABL’s critique was aimed at the obliviousness of a number of white liberals to the concerns and contributions of a lot of people of color, as evidenced by their complaints about how Obama treats that mysterious entity, “the base,” which they assume to be almost exclusively themselves.
Okay, so I believe we’re really talking about the FDL contingent. Who refer to Obama in scathing terms indistinguishable from any Freeper thread, a level of disrespect that seems suspiciously disproportionate compared with the anger expressed at any other politician, including Republicans and Teabaggers. And declare they’d just as soon primary this guy, or withhold their votes from him, to teach him a lesson, no matter the expense to the country, or people at risk who very much know the difference between the two parties. Often those people at risk are also people of color, and I have my doubts that the FDLers who would “teach Obama a lesson” are part of the group that would suffer those effects. So, the phrase “white privilege” does come to mind.
The level of fury aimed at ABL because she dared to post an article about liberal racism, indicates to me that she hit a few nerves, which she usually manages to do.
I don’t think she needs any defense, particularly from me. But there, she has some, anyway; I hope she returns to BJ, not least to push back against The New Guy.
Paula
“Wite-Magic Attax”
• the FALLACIOUS FLIP (“You’re racist against whites!” etc)
• the OVERSENSITIVE (“You’re hearing insults that aren’t there.”)
• the SEEING-EYE FROG (“You are reading into this too much.”)
• the DRUNKEN-DEALER (“You pulled the Race Card!!!”)
• the QUEEN’S CACA-PHONY (“Historicality proveth my superiority.”)
• the INSATIABLE MARTYR (“You are just waiting to be oppressed!”)
• the DROWNING MAESTRO (“I’d care about starving kids, but your tone is off”)
• the APPEAL TO MELANIN (“My mexican wife hates illegal aliens.”)
• the EXISTENTIAL BLACKMAIL (“If I can’t speak for you, who knows anything?”)
• the WITE DISDAIN (“Run along and play with your pet issue, now.”)
• the SCAREM-CAROM (“Imagine a dead spic, hypothetically, of course.”)
• the POST RACIAL (“I’m so happy we live in this Age of Black Presidents and don’t need to talk about all that yucky racism stuff anymore! EVER!”)
• the WITE KNIGHT (“Thank God I was here to make sure you got your due!”)
• the TERRAIN-SHIFT (“That’s what I said: ‘There’s something to be said for saying nothing at all.'”)
• the FEINT DISCLAIMER (“I know as a White person I have privilege, but that’s only because it is so deserved.”)
• the SANITIZED SMILE (“Despite the genocide it justifies, this is a grand holiday!”)
• the SOLAR SYSTEMATIZER (“I’m glad we finally have a chance to talk about your issues. Because they way they affect me must change.”)
• the INVENTOR OF REMERICA (“I like what you just said. It reminds me of what I’m about to tell everyone I just said.”)
Nezua’s list is one for the Internet Ages. And, apologies to ABL, reading what-all BJ had to say to her was a great illustration of all of it.
Angry Black Lady
@Corner Stone: Bitch, please. You may be able to convince yourself that my ego is fragile, but we both know I kicked your ass in every possible way, and that you heaved a sigh of relief upon catching wind of my temporary exit because you incorrectly think that no one else has you pegged for the asshat that you are.
Anyone with the power of teh google can google our names within this site and see for themselves, you jackass. You lose, son.
And bully and threaten? You do realize that even the proprietor of this blog considers you useful only to the extent of your poo-flinging abilities. In any event, I find it hard to believe that Big Bad Corner Stone ever felt bullied or threatened by this here shrinking violet with the fragile ego.
/smirk
I’ll be back as soon as I deal with some pressing health issues and am able to combat the bullshit spewed by you, the pontificating new blowhard/coward, and the rest of the Cockwallah Cabal without feeling increased pressure in my brain.
And when I return, I’ll still be fucking fabulous and brilliant, and you’ll still be an asshole.
~blows kisses~
Sarah, Proud and Tall
@Angry Black Lady:
Come back soon, young lady. Best of luck.
sixers
Can’t wait for when you return and lock commnents in threads because you totally have thick skin. If you have a problem with that guy Freddie posting here maybe don’t be a coward and run away but engage him and prove he’s wrong. I don’t think you can.
Corner Stone
@Angry Black Lady: I’m only surprised you had the guts to actually respond in a separate comment to me, instead of chickenshittingly editing it in to my comment after the fact.
You’re a wanna be bully and a full time coward. You’ve threatened several people on this blog with banning, mainly just because you can. And you want ever-ree-body to know it. You chew and stomp through posts dishing it out but have repeatedly demonstrated the lack of any ability to take it. Cole keeps saying you handle your shit but history and your own tweets quoted here prove differently. You flounce and huff away to more suitable climes for your garbage routine.
A hyperbolic drama queen. Your shitty D-level schtick is weak-fu.
Mrs. Polly
@sixers: I’m going to be more generous to you than is warranted and assume you didn’t scroll up an entire half-inch to see that ABL is out of here for health reasons for the mo.
Otherwise, you’d just seem like a hugely stupid asshat, now wouldn’t you!
Feel Better, ABL! Be a Healthy Black Lady ASAP!
Mrs. Polly
@Corner Stone: Please excuse. I didn’t see you there being just as nasty, stupid, and reading-comprehension challenged as sixers. Please don’t feel left out.
If I have hurt the feelings of anybody with scrollbar insufficiency syndrome, please accept my deepest apologies.
eemom
@Mrs. Polly:
I like you, Mrs. Polly.
Corner Stone
@Mrs. Polly: Your tut-tutting has been noted, Citizen.
Just Some Fuckhead
Hope everything is okay. I’ll try to remember to check in on your blog periodically. Keep up your spirits!
Mrs. Polly
@eemom: Backatcha!
@Corner Stone: I hope you emerge from your corner some day. Seriously, how much would it cost you to say, “Oh, it’s a health problem? Sorry!”
(Must come up with snazzy term for when someone who steps on toes accuses the person who says, “Hey! Don’t step on toes!” of self-righteousness)
eemom
@Just Some Fuckhead:
why, fuckie. You are a gentleman after all.
Just Some Fuckhead
@eemom:
Obviously you missed this.
Mrs. Polly
@Just Some Fuckhead: So your Fuckhead is a replacement model?
Stillwater
ABL referring to Corner Stone:
If that isn’t an example of backhanded, duplicitous bullying – as well as evidence that she’s sought permission from Cole to ban CS because she doesn’t like him – well, shucks, I guess I just don’t know what is!
ABL, I hope your health issues get worked out and you return to this blog better than ever. I also hope you confront Freddie’s arguments, and Corner Stone’s criticisms, and any other anti-Obama views, head on and on the merits, rather than resorting to accusations of racism or firebaggery. Seems like a reasonable approach for a person so confident in their ability to (rationally!) argue.
eemom
@Stillwater:
oh ferfucksake. Corner Stone is the biggest asshole on this blog. And for him of all people to accuse someone else of bullying, divisiveness and petty nastiness is just flat-out laughable.
Just Some Fuckhead
@eemom:
I don’t think Corner Stone would shy away from your description. The difference is he isn’t threatening to ban anyone.
And as much as I like ABL, it’s beyond the pale for her coblogging buddy to be saying to other commenters you better kiss her ass or she will ban you.
I know you folks imagine yourselves as the victims here but you’re not. You’re bullying and asserting yourselves over others while trumpeting your own imagined victimhood. See Stuck’s over the top comments about all the racists here, for example.
Stillwater
@eemom: My comment was about ABL, and how in her response to CS’s accusations that she bullies and threatens people with banning, she bullied and threatened Corner with banning. I think that stands on its own.
I’m happy to talk about the merits of Corner’s comments if you want to. But I think he should be present to correct all the bullshit that might get inadvertently flung his way.
eemom
@Just Some Fuckhead:
first of all, you yourself have threatened to ban somebody if they “crossed you again” — and more generally have consistently displayed an insufferable proprietary “I was here first” attitude about this whole damn blog.
And I don’t know what you mean by over the top comments, but you’re kidding yourself if you don’t think there is merit to the charge of racism among certain people in certain threads.
eemom
…..and your buddy Corner Stone may not have threatened to ban anybody, but that’s only because he can’t. He has, imo, been more than equally obnoxious in his derision of the fact that certain people became FPers.
Corner Stone
Why, eemom, what exactly are you trying to say?
Sixers
@Mrs. Polly:
I’ve read her tweets and seen her thin skin displayed here before so I’m inclined not to believe everything she says. Keep drinking that kool-aid though.
Just Some Fuckhead
@eemom:
Are you really this stupid?
Hermione Granger-Weasley
Balloon Juice, the Hall Monitor Nation.