President Obama has authorized the use of armed Predator drones against Libya government forces fighting the rebellion against Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi as NATO struggles to regain momentum since taking command of the operation from the United States.
The deployment of armed Predators, announced Thursday by Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates, was in part a reaction to changing tactics by the Qaddafi forces, which are intermingling with civilian populations and mounting attacks from unmarked trucks and other vehicles, making them difficult to identify and attack by high-flying NATO fighters and bombers.
The Predator remotely piloted aircraft, outfitted with Hellfire missiles, has been used with effectiveness against pinpoint targets in urban and rural areas in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and Yemen and is a signature weapon of the American military.
But the challenges of the Libyan intervention were apparent again Thursday, when the Predators were sent aloft on their first missions but turned back due to bad weather.
Other NATO nations do not fly armed Predators, although they have unarmed versions for reconnaissance and targeting purposes, and the decision by Mr. Obama to add these weapons to the Libya operation was viewed as another example of the struggle to fill gaps in NATO’s capability to carry out a complicated, extended combat mission with significant American support.
Those gaps have become more apparent as the United States transferred command of the Libya operation to NATO and stepped back to a supporting role.
I wonder what comes after the drones don’t end the battle? Because we know this is America, Fuck Yeah!, we won’t just give up. So what next?
Just Some Fuckhead
All the ordnance in the world isn’t going to produce better rebels.
Aimai
Watch out you cynical bastard. Don’t you know that anything less than full throated support makes you objectively pro quadaffi?
srv
Why can’t we just send Blackwater in?
Trentrunner
What’s next?
Imperial walkers, of course.
Cris (without an H)
“Attack of the Drones”
This line reads like the Times took it verbatim from the DOD’s press release:
Just Some Fuckhead
@srv:
They need better rebels in Libya. We should transplant the Afghani rebels to Libya. That will fix both places.
Laertes
Obviously the important question is: Are the drone operators wearing shoes or boots?
danimal
We should start to turn the corner in about six months.
Yutsano
@danimal: Damn you Friedman Unit!!
Danny
@OP
obvious troll is obvious
I’m all raged out. Vent away.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
More trolling front page posts?
AAA Bonds
John Cole, you’re a cool dude.
Bob Loblaw
@Just Some Fuckhead:
I wish people would stop trashing the rebels like they’re fools to be fighting. For as unsupplied as they are, what they’re doing is incredibly brave.
They had a good day today. Misrata is looking up thanks to renewed NATO pressure, and they’re making good work in the Western mountains/border area.
cathyx
What’s next? We occupy Libya then on to Iran. The entire middle east will be ours one day.
srv
@Just Some Fuckhead: I was reading about how so many ‘AQ’ fanboys came from eastern Libya. If this is the best they’ve got, what does that say about our last 10 years?
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@Trentrunner:
these aren’t the drones you’re looking for?
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
Nice to see that Operation Sunk Cost is living up to its name.
AAA Bonds
Isn’t there a way we can have Blackwater fly the robots? Why can’t we have everything we love, like that peanut butter with mayonnaise in it?
Your very best lobbyists, please.
Laertes
I’m puzzled. What’s the significance of drones being sent in? Does it represent some kind of escalation?
We’d already used cruise missiles. We’re already using manned aircraft. What am I supposed to think about the revelation that remotely-piloted attack aircraft are being added to the mix? Because all I think about it so far is that I’m kind of surprised they weren’t being used already.
stuckinred
@Laertes: It gives people something else to bitch about.
dadanarchist
Duh, Jedi Knights.
Already too late with the SW references.
Gus
@Laertes: I believe (though I’m not sure) that the significance is that the US is upping it’s commitment, when this is theoretically a NATO led enterprise, with France trying to take the lead. Which is of course risible.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@Laertes:
It means the internet left can show itself yet again out of touch and completely irrelevant to the grand scheme of things by trotting out old worn-out cliches about how this is just like Iraq.
Laertes
If we’d only used cruise missiles and unmanned aircraft so far, and had just started adding manned aircraft to the mix, that would be an escalation. Putting air crews directly in harm’s way obviously risks their loss or capture, and then further entanglement.
But this is exactly the reverse.
“Uh-oh. Now they’re sending unmanned aircraft. Shit just got real.”
What?
Gus
@stuckinred: Haha, yeah, ’cause otherwise there’s nothing to bitch about.
Corner Stone
I hope no one does anything nefarious.
stuckinred
@Gus: Yea since from the very beginning we said we would apply our “unique assets” one of which is the armed drone.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Bob Loblaw:
There’s a real fine line between stupid and brave.
AAA Bonds
@Laertes:
Well, the “substantial” (read: “American”) issue is that we were lied to by the White House repeatedly about our involvement and what it would entail and when it would end.
The current tactic seems to be to simply have different executive officials make new and contradictory statements every day, a tactic used effectively by Nixon’s White House in Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos.
The issue for the world at large is that, working with Islamic extremists everywhere, we have successfully transformed the Predator drone from a tactical advantage into a recruiting tool for the enemy.
AAA Bonds
@Laertes:
It’s crazy, isn’t it? People actually care about things other than how many white men might die while operating expensive flying machines.
stuckinred
“The current tactic seems to be to simply have different executive officials make new and contradictory statements every day, a tactic used effectively by Nixon’s White House in Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos.”
Uh, excuse me but that began with JFK.
Laertes
@AAA Bonds:
Cool. That seems like a reasonable point to be making. Can you connect the dots for me here? Why is it that the use of these drones should make me feel lied to?
Zifnab
@Cris (without an H)
: Man, I hope no one plans on getting married any time soon in Libya.
Omnes Omnibus
Oh for fuck’s sake, Cole. Nice troll.
Delia
With the precision bombing made possible by drones, soon we’ll be making inroads on the all-important wedding party factor.
soonergrunt
@Laertes:
Pretty much. This isn’t an escalation.
Having said that, I don’t think we should be doing any of it. At all. There’s nothing good to come of this for the USA.
AAA Bonds
I’ll reiterate: if you think the propaganda impact of Predator drones doesn’t matter, you either know nothing about the wars we’re fighting or you’re pretending to be stupid to serve an agenda.
And unless you work at General Atomics or just put down your RPG to post this comment from your satphone, it’s not your agenda.
david mizner
Why are the Jonas brothers in Libya?
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@Zifnab: We’ll have to teach our drone pilots to watch out for ‘JUST MARRIED’ signs hanging off of the back of T-72s.
Yutsano
@Zifnab: Okay, I know this is hella wrong and I’m going to Hades for it, but I LOLed.
eemom
Saw news about drones. Clicked over here.
Yerp. Cole troll post open for business.
You can set the clock by this blog.
Keith G
@Just Some Fuckhead:
As you know, you go to war with the rebels you have, not the rebels you might want or wish to have at a later time.
Corner Stone
@Delia:
Fixed that for y…no, wait. You had it right the first time.
Laertes
@AAA Bonds:
As far as I know, this campaign has involved white men operating expensive flying machines since around day two. Why is it a unique outrage that the operators are in flyover states instead of inside the craft in question?
n.u.m.b
Stay. In. The. Boat people!!
AAA Bonds
(Please note that I include the Pentagon in the category of “employees of General Atomics”.)
WarMunchkin
Can we get a cost estimate on this war? I’d like to see how much funding for poor people was cut for this.
edit: I meant kinetic military intervention. Wouldn’t want to seem unpatriotic.
Bob Loblaw
@Omnes Omnibus:
What exactly would a non-troll post look like?
AAA Bonds
@Laertes:
. . . sweet Lord almighty, I am not going to post the same reply five times.
Let’s try a yoga technique called “mindfulness”. Close your eyes. Breathe deeply. Imagine you are the sort of person who cares about Predator drones, specifically, the sort of person who would get mad that the United States sends robots to do its killing, and is especially incensed about that aspect of it. Now open your eyes, and duck quickly before your cousin’s bride’s femur lodges in your brain
Joe Beese
And coming up next…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/misurata-body-says-it-has-asked-for-foreign-troops/2011/04/19/AFH6sJ6D_story.htmls
I hope the BJ cheerleaders for this clusterfuck feel really stupid right now.
david mizner
Don’t worry, tho. General Cartwright assures us that drones are “uniquely suited” for urban combat:
http://twitter.com/#!/DeptofDefense/status/61144406744510464
Anyhoo, we know this has nothing to do with oil. Or GOP wars have to do with oil.
Zifnab
@The Sheriff’s A Ni-:
I remember back in my reckless college youth, thinking that if enough people protested we would see politicians balk at continuing the military adventurism in Iraq.
Haha, stupid me, and stupid internet leftist. Our worn-out cliches and inability to connect with reality are no match for million dollar lobbyists and war-porn ad blitzes. We should all just shut the fuck up already. Only good can come of third Middle Eastern open-ended extremely expensive military engagement, in the grand scheme of things.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Zifnab:
Drones apparently have special tracking software for funerals and weddings.
Aimai
You have to love the phrase “signature weapon” in zifnabs quote? Does no one think it’s a tad infelicitous? it makes me think of aspiring third rate chain restaurants with their signature dishes like sole stuffed with crabmeat, cream cheese and hoummous or soup in a bread bowl. The innocent braggadocio of having a signature form of distance killing seems…unseemly.
stuckinred
@AAA Bonds: Once was enough.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@Zifnab: Call us when you stop the 24/7 whinefest long enough to actually get something accomplished.
david mizner
You know five years ago if you’d told me John Cole would be smarter about imperialism in the Middle East than Juan Cole…
Joe Beese
@WarMunchkin:
How much of the winter heating assistance that Obama cut would this have paid for?
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/apr/19/libya-rebels-will-receive-25-million-from-us/
Zifnab
@Aimai:
Please don’t soil the exquisite culinary treat that is the “Soup in a bread bowl” by comparing it to something as cheap and tawdry as a hell-fire missile laden predator drone.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@david mizner:
… I’d discount your opinion as quickly as I did just now?
Joe Beese
http://smirkingchimp.com/thread/gareth-porter/35676/the-obama-gates-maneuver-on-military-spending
Laertes
@AAA Bonds:
Cool. Now we’re getting somewhere. I don’t want to accidentally create a straw man here, so I’ll just ask plainly: Are you suggesting that Predator drones have a poorer record than manned craft with respect to dropping ordnance on civilians?
If that’s true, it’s news to me and I’m grateful to you for pointing it out. In that case, sending in the Predators would be a pretty awful thing to do, and would indicate that we’re being careless about the lives of Libyan civilians.
Chalk it up to my unfamiliarity with things military, but as I’ve watched the horror show play out in the Middle East over the last several years, I’d gotten the idea that manned craft about as likely as unmanned craft to butcher a wedding party. And so it didn’t occur to me that sending drones represented any kind of escalation or new threat.
Zifnab
@The Sheriff’s A Ni-:
Remember back in ’08, when Hillary Clinton was the odds-on favorite to win the Presidential nod? And she said something that amounted to, “I don’t see us getting out of Iraq any time soon. We’re probably going to keep about 40k troops there indefinitely.” That was the beginning of the end of her Presidential ambitions.
Obama stepped up, said all the right things, and had every anti-war Democrat eating out of his hand.
Then there were the anti-war PACs – MoveOn and Veterans for Peace and Michael Moore’s guys and the like – that practically revolved around the anti-war protest. It was the one thing Democrats could resoundingly agree on. Iraq Bad.
That’s the kind of pull the anti-war left had. It was the starkest difference between 100-year-in-Iraq John McCain and Out-by-2012 Obama. ’06? Was about the wars. ’08? Was about the wars. Hell, ’04 was about the wars, until Bush pressed the anti-gay agenda and anti-immigrant agenda hard.
You flaunt the anti-war vote at your own peril.
david mizner
@Joe Beese:
Well, that’s peanuts. The U.S cost is approaching $1 billion. Of course, as this article points out, we’ve already paid most of the tab by supporting the military budget that allows this kind of militarism.
http://blogs.forbes.com/beltway/2011/03/28/the-real-cost-of-u-s-in-libya-two-billion-dollars-per-day/
“So what looks like an inexpensive military operation in Libya is actually costing taxpayers about $2 billion per day, because that’s what the Pentagon and other security agencies of the federal government spend to maintain a posture that allows the military to go anywhere and do anything on short notice.”
srv
WHOOSH
The Raven
Well, y’know, sooner or later you have to recruit some wolves to rip through the hide, and then you can feast. Thing is, you need some wolves on the ground: flying and flocking alone doesn’t do it.
Croak!
(Yes, ravens really do recruit wolves.)
kdaug
@Joe Beese:
To whom would this apply?
dmbeaster
For all the troll spotters, the salient point of the post is what next after drones don’t work? Because they are not going to change the basic dynamics of this conflict, which predictably is not going well. Unless stalemate was the intent.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@Zifnab:
Yep. And then I remember when a fresh-faced young African-American senator stood up to challenge her. Someone who said he had hope and visions of the future instead of dialing back the clock to 1995. Someone who used the Iraq War along with other vital arguments about health care and the economy to show why he was the better candidate.
And of course there was that whole economic collapse going on, but I’m sure it had nothing to do with an increasingly out of touch John McCain losing in the general election.
But maybe I’ve lived through the wrong history. Where can I find the Internet Left approved history book, comrade?
Obama is supposedly flaunting that vote. Obama looks pretty damn strong going into next November. Fancy that.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@dmbeaster:
Ask Cameron, Sarkozy, and Berlusconi, because Obama isn’t sticking his neck out to save their bacon.
Just Some Fuckhead
@dmbeaster:
If we don’t intervene, this thing could end soon.
Suffern ACE
@cathyx:
If you look at the papers we signed we took on the Middle East installment plan, it appears that we pay for years and years and don’t get much closer to owning it outright. It’s one big Rent-a-Center.
jeffreyw
@Zifnab:
Best I can do.
Chyron HR
@Joe Beese:
Of course you have.
Joe Beese
@Zifnab:
And then…
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/04/under-protest/237605/
[reposted from an earlier thread, for the many here who deserve it again]
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@The Raven: Corvids rule.
@Cole
Well….we have to offload inventory somewhere. The Pakis don’t want us usin’ them there anymore.
If droning works as well in Libya as well as it works in Pak and A-stan, look for the number of Qaddafi loyalists to double in a week.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@Aimai:
rather than the social climbing pretense of a signature weapon, or signature dish, would you prefer the faux earthy modesty of an “artisanal” drone?
mclaren
Escalation, of course.
Always more escalation.
Remember: Mnemosyne promised us we’d be out of Libya “tomorrow.” That was last week.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Joe Beese:
. well no, ‘tard, the antiwar youth are either looking for jobs or working double shifts at MickeyD’s so they can pay their tuition since Mom and Dad got laid off.
Fucking assclown.
stuckinred
Gates says they may have already been used, sorta kills the “escalation” bullshit doesn’t it?
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob Loblaw: To paraphrase Potter Stewart, I’ll know it when I see it.
Joe Beese
@kdaug:
Well, this idiot, for starters:
trollhattan
@Delia:
Beat me to the punch. “All rebel weddings indefinitely postponed.”
Hermione Granger-Weasley
Dude.
I get banned for accurately pointing out that EDK is a glibertarian grifter, and Joe Beese continues unabated as an Obama concern troll.
He must be DougJ.
Bob Loblaw
@Laertes:
Since everyone else is predictably focused on nothing but Obama and their own little cliquey bitchfests, I’ll actually bother answering your question just to mix things up.
Drones = new focus on urban bombing. That’s one of the things they excel at. They can stay in the air for longer than a manned patrol, and their missiles are, in theory, less likely to cause collateral damage. In practice can be a different story as we’ve seen the distanced controllers struggle to make real time decisions with questionable ground intelligence.
So the escalation is more intense focus on surgical bombings in the only major Qaddafi strongholds in Tripoli and Sirte, and the contested Misrata. And thus potentially more civilian casualties.
Joe Beese
@Hermione Granger-Weasley:
And the “antiwar” MoveOn.org? Whose front page currently displays neither the word “Iraq”, nor the word “Afghanistan”, nor the word “Pakistan”, nor the word “Libya”?
Are they manning the fry vats as well?
Omnes Omnibus
@stuckinred: I would be surprised if they hadn’t been used. As a result, I just don’t see escalation here.
stuckinred
@Omnes Omnibus: If you switch from HE to Willie Peter is is escalation?
Rommie
I’d say, if the Predators don’t help the Rebels to get a move on, the next step is to send in the A-Team to get the Head Cheese. He’s the QB, this is all about him, “remove” him from the equation and something big will happen. We may not like it, but something big will happen if he’s gone, whether it’s to his personal St. Helena or a meeting with the deity at the end of the stairs.
I know that assassination will kick the hornet’s nest but that seems to me the next step to try to end this.
Zifnab
@The Sheriff’s A Ni-:
Where are you get that first quote. Check your own link, I didn’t say that first thing.
He’s scaling down Iraq and he is supposed to start scaling down Afghanistan in July. The “internet liberals” are keeping an eye on this, and they’re not thrilled with the progress, but Obama hasn’t “flaunted” any votes just yet.
As for November, he’s really not looking that strong. He loses to a “Generic Republican” on a few polls. But the individual GOP candidates are so weak at the moment that it’s not really a challenge once you bring him up against any specific candidate.
Clinton and Reagen looked about this good two years and change into their terms. But then so did Carter and Johnson.
Zifnab
@jeffreyw: I’d eat that.
Litlebritdifrnt
Mistermix pissed me off earlier by mocking the weapons (or lack there of) of the European countries (of which Britain is one of course). This mirrored the mocking of Scarboro on Morning Joe, who thought it was hilarious that a country could run out of weapons. While I understand Mistermix’s point, that unless you have the weaponry to back it up you shouldn’t go to war (unless it is one you can win) I would just like to point out that MY home country like many in Europe spend a large part of their revenue on taking care of their own citizens, with Universal Health Care, and generous social programs. YOUR country however spends more on defense than the rest of the world combined and yet cannot come up with the money to make sure that your citizens don’t go bankrupt when they get sick. You can swagger and brag all you fucking like, I know which scenario is not only more humane, but moreover is what a government should be doing.
Rant over.
Omnes Omnibus
@stuckinred: At what am I firing? HE followed by WP is shell combo of choice for fuel depots, etc.
Zifnab
@Joe Beese: You’re so full of shit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Defense_Spending_Trends.png
Bush tacks on $200 billion and you shrug.
Obama tacks on $50 billion and you freak out.
But somehow $50 billion is “23% WORSE THAN BUSH!” Check your effing math. While you’re at it, check the body politic that actually cuts the checks. If you’re having a hissy fit over Obama not vetoing the budget over excessiveness military spending, I have a bit of sympathy there.
But blatantly ignoring an entire branch of government – the branch with the most budgetary authority – and saying “WHAAA! WHY HASN’T EMPERORBAMA CUT THE MILITARY SPENDING YET?!” is asinine.
Obama asked for tax increases, a jobs bill, and infrastructure funds. Congress laughed that right off. But somehow his military spending made it through intact. Clearly, all part of his sinister master plan.
Joe Beese
@Zifnab:
ha ha ha ha ha…
http://www.assafirpress.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=679:washington-pressures-on-maliki-to-keep-us-troops-longer-in-iraq&catid=13:politics&Itemid=26
http://www.aolnews.com/2010/11/11/us-wobbles-on-2011-date-for-afghan-withdrawal/
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Bob Loblaw:
oh great.
Now we are the IDF.
Tsulagi
@Zifnab:
No problem. Competent wedding planners saw this coming and secured underground space in Libya’s Valley of the Caves area for their clients’ happy events.
Dennis SGMM
Did you know that the drone corps has a motto?
It’s “Nothing can go wrong…go wrong…go wrong…go wrong…”
Omnes Omnibus
@Litlebritdifrnt: Actually, I have no problem with the choices the European counties made wrt guns v. butter; I think we should have leaned much further that way ourselves. However, if one lacks the military capacity to do something, one should then avoid doing it. Personally, I think that between the UK and France there is probably sufficient military capacity to do just about anything that needs doing in Libya; they might just need to rely on airstrikes from good old fashioned planes rather than drones and cruise missiles.
soonergrunt
@Litlebritdifrnt: The point here is that you have that luxury because of us you stupid shit.
Britain started this stuff knowing full well that we would do the heavy lifting in the service of British prerogatives.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Joe Beese: less’ us see what happens after November 2012, ‘tard.
In case you havent noticed yet we are now approaching the Wingularity.
And like I told Mastertroll DougJ, we aint seen nothing yet.
Laertes
@Bob Loblaw:
Good answer. Thanks. So I suppose this does represent an escalation.
Bob Loblaw
@Laertes:
But just a minor one. We started this thing with 200 tomahawks fired in the span of 48 hours, remember.
Dennis SGMM
“Isn’t it rich, are we a pair
Me here at last on the ground
You in mid-air
Send in the drones
Isn’t it bliss, don’t you approve
One who keeps tearing around
One who can’t move
Where are the drones
Send in the drones…”
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Joe Beese: yup. they are.
or they are trying to scrape up enough $ to counter fucking Citizens United.
This is your chance to step back from the crack pipe fucktard.
I am going to drink your concern troll milkshake.
you know i can do it.
gex
The reason drones are a bad sign is that 1) civilian casualties caused by drones are particularly infuriating for the citizens of the country we are “helping” and 2) the less Americans think they have at stake in these things the more they are willing to let them drag on. Why, we could conceivably just have drones flying all over the world bombing people and if Americans aren’t coming home in coffins, it seems most Americans would be okay with that.
mk3872
What’s with the friggin’ faux rage, Cole? How are predator drones any different than manned planes in your book? It’s still not troops.
jwb
@Hermione Granger-Weasley: I think you got banned for stalking EDK to death in every fucking thread, not for pointing out he was a libertarian grifter. Just saying.
Joe Beese
@gex:
49% of Americans disapprove of Obama’s handling of Libya.
What will the number be after they learn about the drones?
And then after the first American “military advisors” join their NATO counterparts?
Laertes
@mk3872:
Yeah, that was my first reaction too. See Loblaw at #85, though.
stuckinred
@Omnes Omnibus: But is it escalation whatever the target? :)
Laertes
@Joe Beese:
About the same, I expect. Drones aren’t a big escalation.
Quite a bit higher, I should think. That’s where they lose me, for instance.
Georgia Pig
@soonergrunt: And perhaps Cameron has his ass in a crack because he’s preaching austerity at home, tanking his own economy, while lobbying for an overseas adventure Britain can’t afford. Maybe he’s trying to push Britain towards a Reagan-style Keynesianism, but that doesn’t appear to work, just ask us. I’ve got no problem with Britain having a generous safety net, just with them lobbying for fucking wars in which we have to do the heavy lifting (see Blair, Tony) and their oil companies gain. Remember, their elites can be as greedy and self-centered as ours. That said, this isn’t much of the way of escalation on our part. Maybe it’s just a ploy to scare Gaddafi out of running around in his version of the popemobile.
Maude
@Bob Loblaw:
I’m glad we don’t have our pilots flying over Libya. They’re on back up, but not front and center. I’m waiting for someone to say what’s next is boots on the ground.
Odie Hugh Manatee
OT:
MSNBC: John Ensign to resign because of ethics probe.
Another one bites the dust…
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@jwb: Dude, he would never engage. either cole swang the banstick or he runned away.
Its not personal.
I smushed Kuznicki too.
I just hates liberatarianz and freemarketeers.
stuckinred
Al Jazzera
“Pradator drones have routinely been flying surveillance missions in Libya, Robert Gates, the US defence secretary, told reporters at a Pentagon briefing on Thursday.”
So they’ve been flying but not firing, this is a stupid conversation.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@gex: im jus’ happy that the drones are on the side of the muslims for once.
If they are flyin’ in Libya they cant be making more talibs in A-stan and Pak.
;)
Just Some Fuckhead
@Hermione Granger-Weasley:
You can stalk me. You seem kinda hot.
Joe Beese
@Maude:
Again, the rebels have already requested it.
And I’m sure that the ‘bots who insisted that this is Completely Different From Iraq because the natives wanted us there will have no issue with granting their request.
El Cid
Will this lead to regular announcements that a drone strike has been able to take out Qaddafi’s #3? Or a “senior Qaddafi leader”?
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Joe Beese: oh yez. dumbass, this is not OIF part deaux.
Its completely different from Iraq FOR A LOT OF REASONS.
you better decide naow, cuz ima fuck you up on every post until you quit this shit.
Joe Beese
@stuckinred:
When the civilian casualties start mounting up – as the drones’ “surgical bombing” has done by the thousands in Afghanistan and Pakistan – the difference will become quite clear.
If not to you, at least to the people burying their children.
stuckinred
@Joe Beese: Yea yea, tell me all about it. They’d be happy if they buried them because Muammar killed them. Sell it to someone else.
Maude
@Joe Beese:
Obama has said no boots on the ground.
The Brits, French and Italians have sent in advisors to help the rebels. I imagine lack of communications has been a serious problem.
The US Resolution doesn’t go as far as boots on soil.
As far as Iraq, that comparison is getting old.
Good to see you here.
Joe Beese
@Just Some Fuckhead:
You may be thinking of Emma Watson.
Keith G
@soonergrunt:
Over kill?
jwb
@Hermione Granger-Weasley: It’s fine to hate libertarians. Mostly, they’re just shills who have somehow convinced themselves they are writing out of principle. Most folks here are not so dense that they won’t get your point when you’ve already made it ten times. By 100, everyone will be seriously annoyed.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Dennis SGMM:
The night they droned Qaddadi down
Well the hellfires were zinging
The night they droned Qadaffi down
All the rebels were singing
They went, “Aiaiadaidaidaidaidai”
NobodySpecial
@mk3872: I’m sure pilots around the world in the US military will be happy to know you don’t think of them as troops.
Laertes
@Joe Beese:
The rebels can ask for flying ponies and I won’t mind.
But this here Obot will be good and pissed if regular American units go in for any job heavier than recovering downed aircrew.
That was the promise, after all. Air support, but no ground troops. This latest development is a tiny bit alarming because it’s an escalation, however small, and any escalation is a move in the direction of ground troops.
So no, this doesn’t bother me too much, even if it turns out that the drone operators are wearing boots instead of sneakers. But any tired bullshit about “advisors” won’t fly if those “advisors” are regular American units. That’d be crossing the line, and when it happens, I’ll be there with the rest of you, bitching.
Dennis SGMM
@stuckinred:
The first line of the OP specifically states that Obama has authorized the use of armed Predator drones against Qaddafi’s forces.
I’m just very apprehensive that every resource we commit to the rebels makes us a little bit more of an owner of the situation. At the end of the day the Libyans are going to want someone to fix all of the blown up shit and they will come to us with a handful of gimme and a mouth full of much obliged.
Dennis SGMM
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Dammit! Topped again.
stuckinred
@Dennis SGMM: I share that concern for the whole deal, I just don’t think this amounts to diddly.
Joe Beese
@Maude:
ha ha ha ha ha…
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9982898-7.html#ixzz1KCl460bb
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/517/health-care-reform-public-sessions-C-SPAN/
soonergrunt
@Keith G: Not really, because the cause/effect discussed was blindingly obvious to anyone who was paying attention even before Mistermix’s post this morning.
A post that even admitted that the phenomenon was even partially responsible or contributory to the British social safety net, while lauding that same net and comparing it to the American model would’ve been far less offensive and far more intellectually honest.
But instead we got the taint-sniffing post to which I replied.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@jwb: the problem is alla the EDK fanbois that pop up and try to defend the little prick.
But you are right, it was overkill.
it won’t happen again.
;)
stuckinred
@Hermione Granger-Weasley: you so funny
TooManyPaulWs
After the drones, we send the bees.
YES THE BEES.
Maude
@Joe Beese:
Politifact is not accurate. There was a post about it.
Obama isn’t a liar. Even if someone is totally against what he does, he hasn’t been called a liar, by rational people of which you are one. I will wait and see how this goes. It looks a bit better today.
I am getting tired, so if I don’t reply, I’m not being rude, just went to sleep for the night.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@Just Some Fuckhead:
it’s easier left to allies
and measure these things by your brains
I sank into nato with you
a drone in the church bye and bye
I’ll fly over here, save your guys
you’ll need them, your boat is at sea
your tent flap is up, you’ve been swept away
and the greatest of teachers won’t hesitate
to leave you there, by yourself, chained to fate
I a drone love you
I a drone tempt you
I a drone love you
fear is not the end of this!
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@stuckinred: yeah well, before the pompous little prick link whores his latest over here, there is ALREADY a test plan for early graduation and voc-ed that Obama and Biden started in 2009.
Is it too much to ax that the fucker do his own research?
you so funnie too.
;)
tkogrumpy
@soonergrunt: That’s a little harsh.
mk3872
@NobodySpecial: They’re Air Force, not Army or Marines ground troops. That’s the difference, genius.
Yutsano
@soonergrunt: If you would like, I can throw you a preserver and get you back in the boat.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@Litlebritdifrnt:
so. you sort of have the worst of both worlds then. living here, defending how they do things there.
i mean most here agree with the idea of universal health care, and limiting military spending. the problem is convincing the euros to pick up whatever slack we leave by taking care of our citizens.
personally i figure all hell would break loose in europe and england if we dropped the ball militarily, some times i wonder if there is a downside at all.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@TooManyPaulWs: KILLER BEES
mk3872
@Bob Loblaw: “Potentially more civilian casualties”?
Absolutely not. In fact, the reverse.
Bombing from the distance of a bomber is MUCH less sure than a low-level drone.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal: or maybe we should just recall our citizens until the stank of Bush dies off. Why is it the brits problem that most of the world has a hate on for America?
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal: win. best so far.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@Hermione Granger-Weasley:
nah, there are too many americans who would go out and find some bush stank to roll in as quickly as soon as they got finished shaking dry.
Tim, Interrupted
@soonergrunt:
What’s all this “us” and “we” shit, SG? You aren’t doing a fucking thing but typing.
Uncle Clarence Thomas
.
.
@John Cole:
Easy. Another historic Nobel Peace Prize!
.
.
soonergrunt
@soonergrunt: I suppose I could’ve just said “you’re welcome”, but given the previously displayed inability to get the point, I don’t think it would’ve worked.
Bob Loblaw
@mk3872:
But that situational awareness of risks and limitations is built into the use of manned bombers. Civilian casualties are already really low expressly because NATO has been holding itself back. But using drones opens up new flexibility in strike choices and targets, which could conceivably lead to a different set of casualty possibilities that would never even be in play otherwise. The choices aren’t being made in a vacuum.
lacp
Who gives a shit? Do any of you – any of you – really have a say in what’s going on here? Obama is pretty much doing what anybody elected to the presidency would do in 2011; maybe not as vigorously as some, maybe more aggressively than others. But what you and I think doesn’t mean dog squat.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal: /sadface
this is true.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Uncle Clarence Thomas:
You know they gotta be slapping themselves in the head for the first one.
soonergrunt
@Yutsano: Thanks for the offer, but don’t I seem to you like somebody who frequently has to go after the mangoes, and isn’t particularly afraid of the cannibals?
Yutsano
@soonergrunt: On the one hand I somewhat knew better, on the other hand it just didn’t feel right if I didn’t at least make the attempt to offer. :)
soonergrunt
@Yutsano: Well, again, thanks for the offer. Do you want a mango? They’re particularly tasty this evening. :)
Uncle Clarence Thomas
@soonergrunt:
.
.
Shorter soonergrunt – War = Luxury = The Good Life.
.
.
AAA Bonds
@Laertes:
Okay, so, time number six: aside from Bob Loblaw’s point, which I can’t offer further support for, Predator drones have a negative propaganda effect that is effective for America’s enemies. They are despised. Can you imagine why?
It is very easy for us to think, oh, a robot kills the same way and the same people as a man in a plane; it doesn’t make people especially upset that it’s being piloted remotely from the middle of nowhere.
But it does. It clearly does, or our enemies would not use these drone strikes as propaganda while naming the method of bombing. I can speculate as to why, but without some sort of longitudinal study, it is merely speculation:
Perhaps robot planes make us seem cowardly. Perhaps they make us appear as though we are not personally invested in our killing of others (perhaps we are not) while our enemies clearly are. Perhaps they provide a stark symbol of the difference in wealth between us and those we kill, contributing to the perception of our enemies as underdogs (which they are, at least compared to us). Perhaps it is all of these or something else entirely.
The administration may be betting on the flip side of this coin coming up, as I believe the previous administration did in other countries: they are betting that the savage reputation of the drones will put pressure on the foe, strike fear into their hearts, force them to bend to our will.
In this regard, at least, I agree with your unwillingness to differentiate between manned and unmanned air strikes. That is, I think that one measure of effectiveness might be: how effective was the dread B52 against Phạm Văn Đồng?
NedPointsman
Inevitably.
Fucking cowards.
Corpsicle
@Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal: “convincing the euros to pick up whatever slack we leave by taking care of our citizens.”
That’s the point you don’t seem to get. There is very little slack to pick up. The American military is at least twice the size it needs to be. What exactly do we need all those troops for?
Ronbo
Obama is the false-flag operation we feared most. Sign up for his re-election now, before we get someone worse. Ohhhhhh. A Republican! We have no choice but to support this obvious plant. Anything less is to be a … a…. a… oh god no, a firebagger!
Omnes Omnibus
@stuckinred: Shouldn’t use WP on targets that are primarily troops. At least, those were the conventions in my day.
Yutsano
@Ronbo: Oh you were so close. You were right on the edge of having an actual point, then you lost it at the last minute to incoherence due to your emotions getting in the way. I recommend Kolinar.
gex
@Joe Beese: Fuck if I know. Why the fuck are you coming at me? When did I say people were supportive of the Libya adventure?
Omnes Omnibus
@soonergrunt:
@Yutsano:
I have managed to only dip my toes in the water a little bit. I don’t think the mangoes look ripe.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@lacp:
Shhh! You’re interrupting the blogospheric navel-gazing!
/back to surreality
Mike M
I believe that Nato should use the best tools it has available to defend Libyan civilians against attack by Qadaffi forces, while working to bring the war to an end as soon as possible. According to reports, Qadaffi’s forces have been indiscriminant in their shelling of Misrata and other cities. If Nato has the capability to reduce those attacks and spare lives through the use of drones, then it is the right decision to deploy them.
The Obama administration has said all along that the US is willing to contribute its unique capabilities when necessary. Other nations are expected to do their part in contributing other assets such as trainers, communications equipment, weapons, etc.
Yutsano
@Omnes Omnibus: I have a confession to make: I may have splashed a bit more than just my toes. I recognize the error of my ways, I’m crawling back in the boat, and lounging in a deck chair.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Ronbo:
Hey Ronbo, why aren’t you fighting the good fight for pigs, ducks and cows in
MissouriMisery? Gotta stop those “animal rights” groups from ruining life for the farmers!gex
@lacp: Yup. If you aren’t the decision maker, you shouldn’t have an opinion or discuss the issue. Who do we think we are? Citizens in a republic that have civic responsibilities? Damn, we are so full of ourselves talking about these things. But I’m glad you set us straight to let us know our opinions don’t mean shit. Thank you.
Gus
@stuckinred:
Sorry about the late reply, but the whole “from the beginning” part is what I’m bitching about.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@Corpsicle:
no, i am all for dropping our military budget to about 350 billion or so, basically an index against the next 5 highest budgets combined.
i am just not under the complete illusion that we wouldn’t get a bunch of hate mail from the international community. the same folks who complain that we are a big bully btw.
i think we have the same right to look after our citizens at home before concerning ourselves with the world police work we do. lets not pretend we aren’t going to be an asshole either way, and have a discussion of which way we would rather be an asshole.
Gus
@Litlebritdifrnt: Don’t you think maybe the two things are related?
jwb
@Hermione Granger-Weasley: You know, I really enjoyed when you were pushing Wikileaks—cudlips, the whole new approach to language, all of it. Informative and entertaining both.
soonergrunt
@Omnes Omnibus: They look OK to me. If I get the shits later though, I’ll be sure to let you know.
Omnes Omnibus
@soonergrunt: i look forward to hearing.
Sloegin
We gave up after a certain Lebanese adventure that we kinda sorta tried out and quickly found we had no taste for it.
One wonders if anyone in Washington thought out the possibility of losing Casual-Mideast-War 2 before giving the go ahead.
DPirate
Isn’t anyone rooting for Kadafi in this game show?
NEW CAR! NEW CAR!
DPirate
Reads interestingly:
So, the army is (fighting the rebellion) against Khaddafi?
slightly_peeved
Where was all this hate-mail from the UK and France when the US stopped airstrikes last week?
And don’t you remember all that “with us or against us”, “Freedom Fries”, “surrender monkey” stuff back in 2003? Because the French thought invading Iraq was a bad idea? A viewpoint shared by a large proportion of this board?
Maybe if you didn’t get in to expensive wars for fabricated reasons, and then mock and belittle the rest of the world for not getting on board, they might be less inclined to call you bullies. And you might be able to spend less on your defence, at the same time. Just a thought.
Pat
That Obama sure likes him his drones. But lets keep those nasty nuclear weapons away from the “bad guys”.
Also, I wonder how Bradley Manning likes his new digs.
Let fucking freedom ring, why don’t we??
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Pat: Land of the “free” and home of the “brave. But lets not put it all on Obama though dude.
Save some for the Wingularity.
Obama is basically fighting a civil war holding action against Real Murrikkka right here in the USA until after November 2012.
I actually think we could stop the drones if we all put our shoulder to the wheel. But we will have to fight our own military, not Obama. The mil-brass are the morons insisting that the drone strikes are “working”.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
That is just fucking stupid. The mil-commanders insist that drones are a “valuable weapon in terrorist interdiction”.
Fucking retards.
Because of Social Network Theory, every hostile killed by a drone strike creates AT LEAST two more hostiles, because of negative influence propagated along both social and consanguineous network connections. These people are all FUCKING RELATED.
We aren’t even running in place….we are running backwards.
Hypnos
The whole US versus Europe military debate seems to rely on the fact that US military protection of Europe against the Soviet Union was somehow required.
I don’t think it was. I don’t think the USSR after Stalin’s death would have invaded anything. And even if they wanted to invade, Britain and France had nukes.
The US didn’t choose military force over welfare state to protect any of its allies, it did so to go on aggressive wars to pursue either its economic interests or a misguided ideology.
Now I fully agree that European countries shouldn’t pretend to go on wars they don’t have the necessary equipment to fight, and then ask the US for help. Americans have all rights to complain then. But don’t ascribe the differential in military spending to some historical debt owed by Europe to the US for its defence.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
Well here is some good news.
Maliki tells America to fuck off and DIAF.
Unlike the Euros, the sovereign nation of Iraq is not yearning for American benevolence. Wonder why. ;)
Take that Beese.
;)
Hermione Granger-Weasley
And I think the US is about to get kicked out of Pak too.
Can you say Operation Frequent Wind Redux?
Ben Wolf
Folks, any U.S. military campaign has an SF contingent active in the theater of operations. Why? Because JSOC has a huge budget to justify.
We already have “boots on the ground”, we just haven’t been told.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Ben Wolf: we HAVE been told.
Cole is just ignoring this in order to troll his commentariat.
ABT
Just Some Fuckhead
@Hermione Granger-Weasley:
Speaking of drones..
The news came as four missiles fired by two suspected U.S. pilot-less aircraft hit a house in Pakistan’s tribal region of North Waziristan on the Afghan border Friday, killing at least 25 people, Pakistani intelligence officials said.
I want a bumper sticker that sez “brown children burning is the smell of freedom.”
Ben Wolf
@Hermione Granger-Weasley:
No, I don’t mean “training” cadres, I mean engaged in actual combat operations. At the very least they’re designating targets for air strikes, and they’re probably also conducting asymetric operations to disrupt Ghaddafi’s logistical capabilities.
Corner Stone
It’s clear, at least to me, that we need to start droning Libya in order to keep Pakistan stable.
Corner Stone
@Ben Wolf: What you have correctly identified does not matter here at BJ.
It doesn’t matter what the SpecOps boys are doing, nor the “advisers”. Those guys could be laying down covering fire for rebel advances but until we have large bases with KFCs and Pizza Hut commissaries to go along with our fighting men, a solid contingent of BJ peeps will never, ever allow them to be called “combat troops”.
cyntax
Well, Galrahn, over at Information Dissemination, said 10 days ago that he thought the President had about 7-10 days to come with the next step:
So it looks like we have changed how we’re prosecuting the war without putting boots on the ground, but if this doesn’t work, are the Special Operations Forces (SOF) and Marines the next option as Galrahn seems to think? I really recommend reading what Galrahn’s been posting on Libya.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@cyntax: I think droning actually will work better in Libya than Af-Pak. The kinship factor doesn’t operate with outgroups, and Qaddafi’s troops are either mercs or western tribal affiliates. Galrahns pretty prescient, but i think that it still will not be american boots on the ground.
The euros are all ready to go.
So we let them doooo eeeeet.
cyntax
@Hermione Granger-Weasley:
Well to the extent that we’re hitting the right troops and not causing civilian casualties, I think you’re right.
It seems unlikely that drones alone will break the stalemate and so it seems somebody’s boots may very well end up on the ground. To what degree France and Britain are prepared or willing for those boots to be theirs is an interesting question. I gotta believe they at least have the capability to conduct littoral operations (unlike their capacity for waging ongoing “smart” air-strikes).