An American drone attack killed 23 people in North Waziristan on Friday, Pakistani military officials said, in a strike against militants that appeared to signify unyielding pressure by the United States on Pakistan’s military amid increasing public and private opposition to such strikes.
The strike came a day after the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Adm. Mike Mullen, met with the chief of the Pakistani military, Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, and appealed to Pakistan to do more to fight the militants who use North Waziristan as a base from which to attack United States and NATO forces in Afghanistan.
The strike was the second show of determination to continue drone attacks since the head of Pakistan’s spy agency, Lt. Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha, met earlier this month in Washington with the head of the Central Intelligence Agency, Leon E. Panetta, to request a halt to the strikes.
Friday’s attack could further fuel antidrone sentiment among the Pakistani public. A government official in North Waziristan told Pakistani reporters that five children and four women were among the 23 who were killed.
I’m really excited we’ve decided to bring these excellent public relations devices to Libya. Sound judgment, that.
Corner Stone
Pakistan is publicly telling the US to stop. What do you expect us to do? Stop droning people?
We’re just now really getting the hang of it.
Corner Stone
I say “publicly” because really, the govt of Pakistan doesn’t want us to stop a damn thing. It’s too profitable for some of the powerful people in govt to allow us to continue.
edited
cleek
if women and children don’t want to be killed, they should stop hanging out near our targets.
low-tech cyclist
The strike was the second show of determination to continue drone attacks since the head of Pakistan’s spy agency, Lt. Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha, met earlier this month in Washington with the head of the Central Intelligence Agency, Leon E. Panetta, to request a halt to the strikes.
‘Request’? I realize that there are a lot of levels to our relationship with Pakistan, but can’t they insist that we stop blowing up women and children in their country, given that they’re a sovereign nation and all?
Just wondering.
Sophist
Eh, I actually think using them in Libya is much better than using them in Pakghanistan. At least in Libya they have some relatively unambiguous targets, like tanks and artillery platforms and such. It won’t just be a bunch of people crowded around a grainy monitor, trying to figure out if the teenage in their sights is holding a gun or a vaguely gun shaped stick.
MattR
@low-tech cyclist: If they insist, then they look pretty impotent when we ignore them. At least now they can say it was just a request.
fasteddie9318
@Corner Stone:
Bingo. It would be a cakewalk for Pakistan to shame the US into stopping these attacks if they really cared to do so. Public and frequent outcries at American acts of war against a purported ally, UN General Assembly resolutions condemning US actions, etc. We’d have to stop. They have no interest in doing anything more than appearing to object in the meekest and least effectual of ways.
R-Jud
Oh, that Pakistani public. They’re so dronophobic!
I don’t think it’s the “anti-drone” sentiment we should be concerning ourselves with, so much as it is the “anti-being-murdered-by-Americans” sentiment.
cathyx
I like Glenn Greenwald’s name for them. Nobel Peace Drones.
srv
Kayani and Pasha went to Kabul last week to meet with Karzai. Some believe they’re trying to do an end-run around the US, and this explains Mullen’s recent amusements.
Or they’re just asking for mo money. Or the dronings are so successful they threaten the ISI.
fasteddie9318
@Sophist: This is true, until Qadhafi starts moving his military assets in amongst civilian populations and starts employing more paramilitary forces that aren’t as easily distinguishable from civilians.
Just Some Fuckhead
It’s just a damn shame the drones don’t come with cameras so we can get trophy kill shots too.
Just Some Fuckhead
@cathyx:
Haha.
LayedBackGuy
Heard on NPR this afternoon that Sen. McCain is in Libya.
Freedom Drones: Attack!
cleek
@fasteddie9318:
i thought he’d been doing that for weeks.
these drones are just more accurate and stealthy than dropping bombs from jets. (i kid)
Just Some Fuckhead
@cleek:
FTFY!
Just Some Fuckhead
All these dead and maimed brown people will be worth it when we’ve perfected an entire drone army we can terrorize the rest of the world with.
El Tiburon
@fasteddie9318:
Cool. As long as they really don’t want us to stop, then we get to keep droning away. Until then, it is there fault for not making us stop.
But, I am very glad when Obama had that really awesome speech the other day. About something or another. Otherwise I might just have something negative to say.
kdaug
Tactical question: Drones are slow-moving, generally hovering targets. Why are they so hard to hit? Too small? No heat signature? Haven’t seen any pictures with stealth capability (not sayin’ we don’t have ’em), but is the radar signature just too indeterminate?
(BTW: Love the “Goodbye, Blue Sky” shoutout).
Just Some Fuckhead
@LayedBackGuy:
Are we all Libyans now?
Brachiator
@Corner Stone:
This is the sad truth. But this …
The US is compounding insanity with more insanity, and I do not understand the Obama Administration’s take on the US military. The Bush Administration couldn’t see that the government of Pakistan never had any intention of fighting terrorism in this region. And despite all the huffing and puffing by Mike Mullen, nothing has changed here. This reality makes anything the US might want to do, either militarily or politically, largely a pointless exercise.
I just don’t understand how Obama and Secretary of State Clinton keep getting caught up in this nonsense.
As for Libya, the rebels were unhappy that the NATO “assistance” wasn’t getting the job done, and asked for more direct US assistance. Unfortunately, here, the use of drones is the hammer that sees every problem as a nail. And Grandpa McCain is giving his blessing to US actions, guaranteeing Republican support. Ain’t it great to be bipartisan?
fasteddie9318
@cleek:
Not exclusively, I don’t think. He’s still got some massed armor shelling Misurata at least, and they tried retaking Ajdabiya as recently as the beginning of this week. It’s the point at which those easy targets are taken out that the drones become really dangerous to civilians.
fasteddie9318
@El Tiburon:
I’d love to know where it is you think I said that.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Brachiator:
When the alternative is “looking weak” to manly Republicans, you do a lot of dumb shit, tough dumb shit.
cleek
@kdaug:
they’re not. they get shot down all the time.
but they’re cheaper than a jet, and don’t kill Americans when they go down.
Villago Delenda Est
@Just Some Fuckhead:
It’s the Tarkin Doctrine of our times.
srv
@kdaug: Taliban doesn’t have real SAMs. Manpads can’t reach the drones altitude.
There’s a stealthy drone, google “beast of kandahar.” No need for it to be used here, it’s for monitoring special programs.
kdaug
@cleek: Ah. No casket at Dover for a robot, eh?
fasteddie9318
@kdaug:
I think it’s their ability to fly at low altitudes that keeps them off radar until just before they’re ready to fire. After they’ve fired, I’d imagine it’s a waste of a missile to shoot one down.
kdaug
@srv: But surely Mohammar has some capability, no?
Corner Stone
@kdaug: And further to what’s been said, I would classify drones as slow moving and “circling”, not hovering. They fly high enough where you can’t hear them and probably have the visual signature of a buzzard. And that’s if you know where and when to look for them.
cleek
@kdaug:
nope.
and that’s one of the reasons they will rise up and kill us all. in the end.
HyperIon
Of course, there is no monolithic Pakistani position. Parts of the government want one thing, other parts (ISI, for example) want a VERY different thing. And the people of Pakistan have their own ideas on the matter. It’s, umm, complicated.
And sending in the drones will NOT make it less complicated.
fasteddie9318
@srv:
The Sentinels can’t carry a payload. The next generation of armed UAVs, the Avengers, will have some stealth technology incorporated.
LayedBackGuy
Looks like we don’t have enough Freedom Drones to cover to whole middle east…
Corner Stone
@kdaug:
Doubtful, but either way probably not worth his time.
“Analysts say this would mean a total of perhaps six to 10 aircraft, or which only two to four might be over Libya at any one time, compared with the 50 patrols employed in Afghanistan and Pakistan — a smaller land area than Libya.
“You’d want more UAVs if they were available,” said Barrie, noting there were limits to how many could be deployed without affecting missions in Afghanistan and Yemen.
“The Predators have the potential to change things, but only in a limited area,” said Ripley. “They are only going to have two patrols, so that means a very narrow area. So it’s more of a tactical operational thing than a strategic impact.”
Drones no magic bullet
IMO, Gaddafi is much better served to concentrate his resources on pounding the rebels from civilian emplaced armor.
That way he keeps the pressure on and gets lucky when NATO kills some collaterals in drone strikes.
El Tiburon
@fasteddie9318:
are you not aware of all Internet traditions? That was a shorter version of you post.
beergoggles
The simple explanation is that we need to turn all the relatives of the children that we murder into
freedom fightersterrorists so we have someone to be at war with for the next generation.srv
@kdaug: That’s where all the tomahawks went.*
Read this guy: http://geimint.blogspot.com/
All the talking heads on tv took his graphs.
*whatever they missed, the HARMs got.
LayedBackGuy
CNN has a story up about a US ‘departure’ from a drone base in Pakistan.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/04/22/pakistan.drone.strike/index.html?hpt=T1
Joe Beese
You left out the best part, Mr. Cole.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13167425
“Lesser evil”, you say.
Just Some Fuckhead
You pumabaggers never gave a damn when Bush was lighting the world up with drone missiles. Now that it’s a black man doing it, suddenly it’s the worse fucking thing in the world.
kdaug
@srv: Looks like microwave weap /jamming platform. Kandahar would seem to be an unlikely theater, though. Test run?
El Tiburon
@beergoggles:
I think we are good for a long, long time.
Brachiator
@Just Some Fuckhead: RE: I do not understand the Obama Administration’s take on the US military
This goes beyond that. The Obama Administration is making the same blunders that the Bush Administration made. They keep getting played for saps by the government of Pakistan.
I expected more of these folks. It’s not just about avoiding the appearance of weakness. There does not appear to be a coherent foreign policy in place here, and the administration does not appear to be able to identify people in the State Department or the defense establishment who have any insight into what is really going on.
soonergrunt
@kdaug: They haven’t really been used in places renown for their air defense networks.
Also, they make significant use of composite materials, so they show up less on civilian radar, which frequently requires the use of a transponder on the aircraft anyway.
Also, they’re relatively quiet platforms. I can remember being told I was supported by drones a couple of times in Afghanistan, and I pretty much had to take Higher’s word for it. Couldn’t see or hear them.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
Actually, droning will work much better in Libya than in Af-Pak because the kinship saturation is much lower in eastern libya. The problem in Af-Pak is the hostiles are ALL kinship embedded in the muslim population. So every hostile killed creates AT LEAST two more hostiles.
Qaddafi has mercs and western tribesmen, and they not SNT connected with the rebels and eastern tribes of Libya.
So killing a merc or a Qaddafi tribal loyalist doesn’t have the kinship network propagation of killing a talib or a jamaat-e-ismali.
jcgrim
This morning on NPR, someone asked Gates if the Libyan Drone attacks were mission creep. Gates replied: They are not mission creep.
See. Gates cleared that up for us.
gene108
What do we do?
Pakistan would be more than happy to put a loyal Taliban government back in power in Afghanistan. Pakistan’s worst nightmare would be an Afghanistan, who is open to having relations with India (who is a big donor to Afghani reconstruction). They’d rather see the Taliban back in power, so they could increase their sphere of influence.
What’s Pakistan’s issue, if al-Qaeda is free to operate in Afghanistan again? They can dump their Indo-centric terrorists into Afghanistan again and have them get some cross-pollination from training with al-Qaeda.
As long as Pakistan’s preferable alternative to an Afghani government that wants to maintain normal relations with India is the Taliban, I’m hard pressed to figure out what the U.S. could do.
I read somewhere that V.P. Biden had suggested a lower level of force, with targeted assassinations. Who knows, maybe that might’ve worked out better.
In the end this gets back to Pakistan’s lack of commitment to insuring a stable democratic government in Afghanistan.
Joe Beese
@Brachiator:
And they puzzled until their puzzler was sore…
Why does Obama commit these war crimes when he’s such a nice, intelligent person?
So very puzzling…
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@gene108: dude…..everyone from Petraeus down admits the Taliban will be part of whatever government we leave behind. We are just trying to deligitimize the talibs enough to leave with some scraps of face and start the drawn down in July. The drone campaign is supposed to give Karzai better leverage to negotiate with the talibs.
Unfortunately the droning just makes more Taliban, not less.
lawl. The Taliban are the crocs in the moat that keeps Pak from gettin’ its very own OEF. OF COURSE they are playing both sides against the middle you retard.
The mini-surge is the same as the surge was. Cover to GTFO of dodge with some scraps of dignity. But the Arab Spring and social media are fucking with Petraeus’ strategy.
Social media means atrocities are realtime, and the Arab Spring means every friday is a day of rage with a focal point.
I think Petraeus is righteously fucked.
Brachiator
@HyperIon:
Very true. But there ain’t no monolithic position with respect to the views of the people of Pakistan.
For example, the US has largely propped up various regimes in Pakistan since the Cold War. And yet, much of the Pakistan “street” is convinced that the US does whatever India wants on Tuesday, Thursday and Friday, and does whatever Israel wants the rest of the week.
On the other hand, there is nothing dumber than the fantasy that what we do in the region is going to make anyone there hate us more or less than they do now.
As you note, it’s, umm, complicated.
LayedBackGuy
I was born in 1966, when ‘make love, not war’ was the rally cry. Now it is all about ‘who can we fuck, and what do we get’.
Corner Stone
@Hermione Granger-Weasley: So it’s fine to be efficiently killing people in Libya with our drones as long as it doesn’t come back to bite us in the ass?
Because the collaterals aren’t so tightly knit?
Corner Stone
@Brachiator:
If only someone would tell the -czar- President what’s really happening !
Scott Supak
“The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on.”
There’s a great piece on pacifism in this month’s Harpers.
There must be a better way. Hopefully, we’ll find out in a second term…
Imagine what President McCain would be doing right now.
Corner Stone
@jcgrim:
Whew! Did anyone ask him if Area 51 really houses aliens as well?
Corner Stone
@Scott Supak:
Approving drone attacks in Libya?
Joe Beese
@Corner Stone:
So it’s fine to be efficiently killing people in Libya with our drones as long as it doesn’t come back to bite us in the ass?
John Caruso:
Brachiator
@Joe Beese:
Sorry, you have got to crawl out of some other hole somewhere else. I don’t believe that Bush committed war crimes, so I don’t think that Obama has committed war crimes.
@Hermione Granger-Weasley:
It’s more that the Talib will do whatever they can to take over when and if the US leaves. There are fools everywhere who believe that the Talib will be content to be just “part” of the government.
Of course, I would bet good money that if the US left the region tomorrow, the government of Pakistan would ruthlessly suppress the Taliban. This would no doubt spare a lot of Balloon Juice crocodile tears about civilians being killed, since it’s only bad when the US does it.
Dennis SGMM
It isn’t hard to understand why most of the people of Pakistan would want the drone attacks to stop. Aside from the civilian casualties there’s also the fact that when the insurgents retaliate for drone attacks they retaliate against other Pakistanis; military, police, civilians, because they can’t get at the drone drivers.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Corner Stone: well, no I oppose Humanitarian Imperialism and Right to Protect Doctrine on principle. I am just saying droning is non-cost viable in Af-Pak, but could be effective in Libya.
I believe it is wrong to tabletop wargame with any humans.
I would like to think that Obama and the generals could be persuaded to stop the droning in Af-Pak by showing how counter-effective it is.
It might work better for them in Libya, because of low kinship saturation.
fasteddie9318
@El Tiburon: I’m only aware of the tradition where the shorter has to have something in fucking common with the original, not the one where you just make shit up. Since I didn’t even come close to excusing our drone attacks in my original, you and your bullshit shorter can both kindly go DIAF.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Brachiator: no you retard.
Jamaat-e-Islami is the 2nd biggest party in the Pak government and JI and the Taliban are in the same club.
The “Death to Crusaders” Club.
Corner Stone
@Hermione Granger-Weasley: Would you prefer mustard or queso dip for your pretzel?
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Brachiator: you moron, droning DOESN’T WORK. It JUST MAKES MORE TALIBAN.
Joe Beese
@Brachiator:
Of course not. Committing first-strike military attacks and killing thousands of civilians is only a war crime when countries other than America do it.
When we do it, we’re just making a counterproductive policy decision. But we mean well.
Corner Stone
I still have yet to determine the marketing drive behind the cannibalistic Cinnamon Toast Squares cereal commercials.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Brachiator:
You realize that only one case actually has the US killing civilians, right? I mean, I’d be happy to sit in and here and complain about the residents of another country killing the civilians of another country if it would stop you from making that false equivalence.
burnspbesq
@Joe Beese:
It’s somewhat odd that you unquestioningly accept unverified assertions as to casualties when those data cast the United States in a bad light. If the US asserted that the strike had seriously degraded insurgents’ abilities to conduct operations, would you unquestioningly accept those assertions? Didn’t think so.
kdaug
So that’s the Grand Wager?
That we’ve tightened our borders and increased our surveillance/security state such that “those” won’t get over here to do it again?
That we can bomb people with immunity, from far, far away? (Cue Talking Head’s “Psycho Killer”, Nadine).
Blowback, how does this shit work?
Dennis SGMM
@burnspbesq:
I’d say that the fact that the Pakistan military officials claimed that there were five civilian deaths rather than claiming that all of the dead were civilians lends some veracity.
Joe Beese
@burnspbesq:
Are you seriously suggesting that the Pentagon is a more reliable reporter of US military action than BBC News?
Seriously?
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Corner Stone: what pretzel?
Unlike you subsapients I understand COIN and the Af-Pak theater very well. Obama, Petraeus, Gates, Mullen and McC planned the mini-surge well, given intial conditions.
McC saw he couldn’t meet the timeline, and bailed. Petraeus stepped up and hes trying to support the drawdown starting in July.
But no one expects
the spanish inquisitionthe Arab Spring. In Vietnam the US covered up the Kill Squads for twenty years but we still had to bug out after My Lai hit the news.That cover-up doesn’t happen now because of social media. Every droning makes it instantly on alJazeerha, and every friday is a day of rage.
I think they are trying to evolve a new exit strat because the mini-surge has failed.
I don’t think O has a lot of options other than lissenin’ to his generals.
The generals say the droning is working, and they need it to start the drawn down.
I say they are fulla shit. Who is O going to lissen to?
His generals.
/shrug
Corner Stone
@Hermione Granger-Weasley: Oh, I thought I read where you were making pretzels. I like the soft doughy ones with salt and a lot of sharp yellow mustard.
Corner Stone
@Just Some Fuckhead: I had hoped you’d get more from this. Probably not the right crowd here at the moment for a good ROI.
stuckinred
@Hermione Granger-Weasley: “In Vietnam the US covered up the Kill Squads for twenty years but we still had to bug out after My Lai hit the news.”
That’s the dumbest thing you have ever written.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Corner Stone:
I made Nick feel bad yesterday so I felt like I needed to atone.
Parallel 5ths (Jewish Steel)
@Corner Stone: Huh. That’s pretty strong flame-bait. Where are the usual suspects?
Just Some Fuckhead
@stuckinred:
I challenge you to prove that empirically.
burnspbesq
@Joe Beese:
It’s rather unlikely that a BBC reporter was on scene counting bodies. Who is/are the BBC’s source(s)? Do those sources have any incentive to lie? Once you can answer those questions, we can evaluate whether there is any reason to believe those sources are reliable.
The point, which seems to have evaded you, is that you are entirely unquestioning of “information” that casts the United States in a bad light, because that information is congruent with and doesn’t challenge your existing prejudices.
stuckinred
@Just Some Fuckhead: I’m a qualitative researcher.
Fred
And if there was another Rwanda style genocide because we did nothing…..what would you say then….from the comfort of your living room in front of your computer, in your safe home on your safe street in your safe neighbourhood in your safe country.
My point?! YOU HAVE NO CLUE! YOU ARE INCAPABLE OF RELATING!
NobodySpecial
@Parallel 5ths (Jewish Steel): They don’t engage unless there’s a weasel somewhere.
Joe Beese
@Fred:
Take it away, Doctor…
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@stuckinred: have a look dude.
It was the smile.
Third pic in the slide show.
We are leaving A-stan. its Obama’s choice whether it is a retreat or a rout.
Corner Stone
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Which one?
Just Some Fuckhead
@NobodySpecial:
Stuck will be back when he gets banned from eHarmony again for impersonating an old lady looking for a good time with several “musseled twinks”.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Corner Stone:
Erp. I get ’em all mixed up.
Brachiator
@Just Some Fuckhead: RE: This would no doubt spare a lot of Balloon Juice crocodile tears about civilians being killed, since it’s only bad when the US does it.
I have no idea how any notion of “false eqivalence” applies here. None.
@Joe Beese:
Not really the issue. But thanks for playing.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Corner Stone: lol. i have my german grandmothers bavarian pretzel recipe.
its amazing.
but you have to marry into my family to get it.
;)
Just Some Fuckhead
@Brachiator:
Alright, break it down for me. Why should I, a US citizen, be more concerned about who kills who in another country than what my own government does?
Hermione Granger-Weasley
You know…..if there was a Hero Blogger that was dedicated to stopping the Af-Pak dronings because THEY DON’T FUCKING WORK instead of fussbudgetting over the perilous libyan slippery slope to OIF…..I bet he could Make A Fucking Difference.
jus’ sayin’.
kdaug
@stuckinred:
Highly debatable.
Barb (formerly Gex)
@Just Some Fuckhead: The science gets done and we make a big gun for the people who are still alive. #thecakeisalie
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@kdaug: smile when you say that, mistah.
Brachiator
@Just Some Fuckhead:
So let’s see. It’s not that you are against killing, it’s that you are against the US government doing the killing.
Do I have that right?
And although it’s not killing, there are reports that Bradley Manning was moved to “more humane” quarters in part because of international pressure. Now, all them foreigners who were concerned with what the US government was doing just should have STFU, right, and let us handle our own shit. Even if that meant that Manning continued to be shut in a hellhole.
That’s your position, right?
rob in dc
Pink Floyd references are always appreciated.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Brachiator: Jesus, this is worse than talking to Joe From Libya.
Tell me what position I should have that jibes with your moral code so that I am not accused of crocodile tears.
Joe Beese
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Simply accept that the lives of Muslim women and children are less important than America achieving its foreign policy goals.
If it helps, keep in mind that no less important an outcome than Obama’s re-election may hinge on it.
kdaug
@Barb (formerly Gex): Don’t start. I’ve not gotten my copy yet.
Mike M
I’m not sure what we’re accomplishing in Afghanistan, if anything. Still, just because a government official in North Waziristan claims a certain civilian death count doesn’t mean that I believe him. This is not a BBC report of what their reporters observed, which I would find highly credible, but their report of what a local official said.
There have been plenty of accidental deaths of civilians in those areas killed by US forces, whether by drones or other means. Ihat’s horrible. But I have heard enough first-hand reports on NPR and the BBC to know that the Taliban and others have murdered people in these areas and then blamed them on US forces. Still other times, militants are killed but officials claim they were civilians (we see the same game played by the government in Libya).
I would just as soon that the US leave and end the war today, but I am still more willing to believe the US government than officials from Pakistan or Afghanistan. All governments lie, but some do it more consistently than others. Both of those countries have huge internal strife and neither is our ally. I’m afraid it is a losing cause.
NobodySpecial
@kdaug: My sympathies. Everyone needs the glory of the potato battery in their lives.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Mike M:
we are spending 100 million taxpayer dollars a day to commit atrocities and make more Taliban.
Does that answer your question?
Even if ALL the kills are talib (altho i dont think the Taliban have drones, just sidewinders and manpads) who gets blamed?
Big Fat White American Crusader, that is who.
Fred
@Joe Beese: false equivalency. Surely you could find something closer to apples/apples.
El Tiburon
@fasteddie9318:
.
I think that’s the other thing about internet traditions. Most don’t agree with the ‘shorter’ version, but it’s right there in your original comment at #7. If only the Pakistanis would bitch and moan more loudly, then, and I quote YOU: “we’d have to stop”
Now, the implication is that since they won’t or can’t or don’t, then WE DON’T HAVE TO STOP.
Look, you made a stupid fucking comment. I called you out on it. It may take you a while to get it, but stay on it, I have faith you’ll figure it out.
Brachiator
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Don’t care.
But quickly, for what it’s worth, I think the drone strikes are stupid and won’t accomplish anything. Applying pressure to the government of Pakistan is stupid and won’t accomplish anything. The Pakistanis realize that they can play us, just like they played Dubya.
Ignoring the complaints of the government of Pakistan and the sentiments of the people indicates to me that the Obama Administration does not have a clue here and is listening to military advisors who have their heads up their asses, and who offer a false promise of a military solution to a more difficult problem.
With that, I’m off to get my weekend started.
HyperIon
@Hermione Granger-Weasley wrote:
Actually the recent cspan panel I saw implied that tribal interactions in Libya were very important. So I’m not sure if you are correct.
HyperIon
@Brachiator:
Evidently El-Baradei does.
fasteddie9318
@El Tiburon:
That implication doesn’t exist anywhere outside of your idiot fever dreams. Piss off.
Or, wait, what’s that? Why, yes, I do enjoy pie. Thanks for asking.
Uncle Clarence Thomas
@Just Some Fuckhead:
.
.
You so funny. It’s all recorded to video files. I’m sure President Obama regrets the necessity of having to personally review them late at night or with friends. He reviews his handiwork much differently than that evil killer President Bush did.
.
.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@HyperIon: sure tribal relationships are important, but the western tribes are Qaddafi supporters, and the eastern tribes are not related to either them or the chad mercs Qaddafi’s importing.
In A-stan the Taliban, al-Qaeda, and jamaat-e-ismali are all cousins.
Besides, in Libya, FOR ONCE some of the muslims are on the same side as the Missionary Nation.
Fuzz
@Hermione Granger-Weasley:
The problem is that interviews by the NYT with Taliban and even AQ sources have said they do work, not to the point that they’ll win the war, but enough the Taliban leaders in Pakistan are constantly having to move around to different safe houses and have had their whole command and control structure affected. When the reporter for the Times (I forget his name, Roche?) was prisoner in Pakistan with the Haqqani network in 08-09 he described in his article how drone strikes were the Talibs’ worst problem by far, they killed a lot of their fighters and were a major psychological weapon, they live in fear 24/7 and a lot of civilians in those areas purposely avoid the Talibs and don’t want to give them help because they know the drones are always overhead. The morality and ethics of using them are another issue entirely but they have had a major effect in Pakistan against the TTP.
salacious crumb
@gene108: i totally understand where u r coming from…believe me I do…and until late last yr I was essentially saying the same thing with regard to Pakistani ISI preference for a Taliban that would strategic depth against India. but the problem is that our presence is doing more harm than good..we are regularly killing civilians, half of which is not reported in the western media. Our men and women fighting there have gone mad with the decade of fighting and are sick of this war and seeing their fellow soldiers die..look what we did with the corpses of Afghans vis a vis the Kill Team? we are pissing off even regular Afghans who even 2 yrs ago were on our side but we are doing nothing to help them economically..right now all we are doing to trying to put band aid to a heavily bleeding wound. That is Pakistan’s territory and we are gonna have to deal with Pakistan and terrorism in a different way now. Unfortunately India will have to fend for itself here, just like at some point Israel will have to start fighting for itself.
we have implemented some real bone headed policies, even Obama, when it comes to Karzai. countries like India and Pakistan which have a governing structure still arent able to get rid of massive corruption in their countries…how can we expect a completely broken country like Afghanistan to fight it overnight? Obama got into demonizing Karzai fairly quickly despite Karzai warning the US for a decade that the Pakistanis were not being helpful…only now does Mullen and Gates and Obama start even talking about this…
so bottom line is I think we have to get out…if more terrorism comes out of Pakistan we will have to find other non violent means to stop it from engaging in these bad behaviors
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Fuzz: ahhh, but droning is tactical, not strategic. Games Theory 101–strategy beats tactics every time.
The mini-surge has failed.
What is the exit strategy now?
Taliban membership is increasing at ~20% per year. Right now 30k Taliban are asswhupping 100k american troops and 250k auxiliary troops (from wikileaks). I do not see this “success” the generals are claiming.
Consider Iraq. Maliki just told Mullen to fuck off and DIAF.
The same thing is going to happen in A-stan.
Only imho its going to be called Operation Frequent Wind II.
And be a lot less orderly.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Fuzz: and guess what else?
The generals do. not. give. a shit. about morality.
They need to be convinced their tactics ARE NOT WORKING.
And they aren’t.
Every hostile kill creates AT LEAST two more hostiles because of SNT.
Its retarded.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@salacious crumb:
this is horribly, sadly true. Bush put our troops into an unjustifiable meatgrinder.
How do we get them out?
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@salacious crumb: do you understand the BASAL PROBLEM?
The mission is crap.
When muslims are democratically empowered to vote they vote for shariah.
COIN and the Bush Doctrine were doomed to fail from the start.
salacious crumb
@Hermione Granger-Weasley: we get them out period..we can leave CIA advisors and handful for special forces to keep track of terrorist activities, but we need to get out and leave with a warning to Pakistan that if any more terrorist attacks in the States or our allies is linked to Pakistan, there will be a heavy price to pay.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@salacious crumb: A-stan too? we have ONE HUNDRED FUCKING THOUSAND TROOPS THERE.
And Pak already kicked out most of the CIA field ops guys.
Because of that asshole Davis.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
I think we all know what the mission is by now.
My new elephants child question du jour…..
salacious crumb
@Hermione Granger-Weasley: ok Afganistan is a poor country where illiteracy is very high and if any education is provided, its in the form of madrasas, courtesy of ISI..is it any wonder they go for Shariah..so what are you saying? are you saying we keep bombing the smithereens out of em because we don’t want sharia? Egypt and Tunisia post Mubarak and Ben Ali aren’t exactly clamoring to implement Sharia…and remember historically Afghans never quite bought into the extreme version of Wahhabi Islan imported from the Saudis. Their Islamic traditions have been moderate …heck we have a crapload of uneducated morans here in US who are more in favor of Christian fundamentalist Sharia implemented here in US than in Afghanistan.
im not saying i know what the US should do vis a vis Afganistan and Pakistan ..otherwise i would be applying for a job with State Dept and Pentagon..all Im saying is we have a bunch of mostly illiterate farmer white kids from the countryside in our military fighting in a strange and foreign land, with no understand or appreciation of a very historical culture, maddened to the point of insanity where skinning an innocent kid is seen as fun and poor leadership among the commanders. we are doing no good over there..we need to get out. if there is some way we can maintain a presence in Afghanistan to help with intelligence then im ok with that..otherwise we will be more hated than ISI itself in the coming months amongst Afghans
THE
There is no exit strategy. HG-W.
The purpose of the war is the war.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@salacious crumb: wallah.
why do Americans not get this?
Shariah OUTLAWS proselytization. Freedom of speech LEGALIZES proselytization. Sharia is both their religion and their legal system.
Westernstyle democracy is INCOMPATIBLE with Islam.
77.2 % of egyptians just VOTED for shariah.
what is the mission again?
America is trying to “stand up” westernstyle democracy. That is what COIN is. So the governments of Pak and A-stan will be friendly to American allies and interests like India and Israel. It can’t be done.
Another basic understanding problem. The ISI doesn’t run madrassas. islamic education is ALL THERE IS. Pak and A-stan are 99% muslim. The lawyers are the clergy and vice versa. All universities are islamic universities.
Yes. That fucking WEC retard Bush put our troops into meatgrinder, an unjust, immoral and UNWINNABLE war.
How do we get them out?
THE
No that is a secondary objective.
The primary objective is to deny Afghanistan as a training base to militants.
A friendly regime in Kabul is only intended as a means to that end.
That’s why USA went in remember?
Also. I told you when Petraeus took over, and he immediately pumped up the level of dronestrikes; that the USA has “in reality” abandoned COIN.
Never mind that COIN remains the “official” story.
That’s just for the world’s press.
The real goal is outright attrition war now.
THE
Also your story isn’t even internally consistent. If the USA had any intention of setting up a Western style democracy in Afghanistan, then why did the USA allow Karzai (or his supporters) to rig the last election?
Your theory is crap.
Scott Supak
@Corner Stone: President McCain would have already ordered a full scale invasion.