lol
we spent a trillion dollars to whack this guy and we don’t even get a braggin’ trophy?
3.
Jane2
Wanting to see a photo and expecting the public availability of any evidence beyond White House claims are two different things.
4.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I think it was Jim Geraghty of NRO (?) who said that not showing the photos was protecting Muslim values at the expense of American values. As near as I can tell, it’s not the absence of the photos that offends American (NRO) values, as much as the idea of caring how Ay-Rabs may react.
5.
Ghanima Atreides
@Emma: As a race tribe, we are a ghoulish bunch.
fixt.
Homo sapiens americanus.
A creature wholly bereft of class.
“Yes, unless his corpse looks like Janet Jackson’s nipple, which no one must ever see.”
7.
Jonathan
Don’t know if you noticed or not, but if you add up the people that don’t think the photo should be made available, then you have 27%. Perhaps that is the fringe stance?
We will cause car wrecks to see car wrecks. For most people, this is the same thing.
Then there’s the 27% who it wouldn’t matter if it was released, they won’t believe it anyway.
Adding those together, it means to me that most people do not need to see it.
10.
roshan
What were the poll numbers for the Abu Ghraib pics? I hope they want the world to see them too.
11.
Calouste
I’m surpirsed that DougJ has lasted 3 days since OBL’s dead without making a reference to the Cure.
12.
lamh34
Ughhh.
The same people who want to see this pic, or probably the same people who will be aghast at how truly gruesome the pictures are. The same people who will be so shocked when they see some random idiot walking around with the image on a t-shirt ala Che’ Guevera. The same people who would be outraged if some foreign country had killed one of our servicemen or politicians during war, and published the pictures for public consumption. The same people who will shocked, shocked I tell ya that their young children were exposed to such a gruesome sight.
Ughh..
I would prefer not to have a US sanctioned photo with the a WH press release and PBO’s signature of OBL. I know people throw around that the “troops will be harmed” by whatever action, but I truly believe that this is different.
To my mind, the MSM wants the pictures to be released so that they can get reaction shots of Muslim, Arab, or Middle Eastern crowds. They might even get a few “Death to America” signs, or maybe a couple of “Obama = Murderer” signs or the old faithful “Death to American infidels” signs. Then they can all feverishly and breathlessly produce segments titled “Why Do Muslims Hate America” or “Crowds condemn Obama for…” (yes, I mean Obama, not Osama).
I for one am really glad that the admin is not releasing an official photo as if they are released the Obama’s Christmas card.
Funny thing is, it’s not just Repubs who ask for the photos. What the hell is happening in this country?
13.
Comrade Javamanphil
@Jonathan: That 27% includes 7% who personally want to see it but don’t think it would be wise to release it. I’ve got your ghoulish fringe right here.
14.
dmsilev
@Jonathan: It’s Anne Althouse’s blog. She’s got a rather skewed readership (not counting the people who read her just to point and laugh). I suspect that a representative sample of the population would have a bigger chunk of people who would say “no thanks”.
I believe this is pretty much it. Considering Muslim values is an offense to American fucktard values, or something.
17.
Chris
Eh. I agree that we’re a ghoulish bunch and that people who want to see the picture are sick, but I’m on the “it ain’t worth the fight” train. Fuck it, just release the picture. I don’t want to listen to three years of “show us the death certificate.”
18.
Paul in KY
i wouldn’t mind seeing his body. I’ve fantasized various ways of killing him over the years. Wouldn’t bother me to see him there with his brains splattered.
What did bother me deeply was the picture those subhuman slimoids took of the poor young boy who was murdered by our forces in Afganistan. It was in the RS article ‘The Kill team’. He was 15 years old, just doing his chores when he was murdered.
I would like those people responsible for that hung & then I would love to see their bloated faces. Might make me forget Mr. Gul’s face.
Edit: Have to leave work now. I will respond to any comments tomorrow morning.
19.
dollared
This is ridiculous.
In a free society, the overwhelming presumption is that information should be released, in all its detail. If they want to wait two weeks for people to calm down, great.
But it is not an indication of our adulthood that we think we need to be shielded from gory detail or protected from the anger of misquided people who live far away. It is an indication of our lack of courage and maturity.
We have the most incurious and self-censoring press in the “free” world. This is the caskets all over again. Apparently we really can’t handle the truth.
20.
cyntax
Think I would have gone with “Staring at the sea, staring at the sand.” But that’s just me.
21.
MikeJ
I think the administration should release a snapshot. Of the DNA tests. That should be enough evidence for anybody.
Although if holding out longer is going to crank up the crazy like the COLB did with birthers, really the only answer is to taunt them.
22.
Mike Kay (Team America)
These are the same people who want to outlaw violence in video games.
23.
Martin
We’re seriously presenting an internet poll as evidence? Is nobody aware of how long Bristol Palin remained on Dancing with the Stars, or the reasons behind that?
24.
General Stuck
Obama will show the photos, but certainly not now with passions aflame, especially in certain quarters of the middle east, already undergoing cathartic upheavals.
Better to let the Muslim world clamor for a while and Obama to “reluctantly” release them later on, hopefully to keep down any murder and mayhem that may result.
As for all the hub bub about the exact circumstances of his demise, I will leave that to the vapors crew standing watch over every single detail of what happens for the proper propriety of the ultimate judgment of good and evil.
The shitstain is dead as Franco, finally. Whether it was purposeful at the last moment, or from the serendipity of firefights, I don’t fucking care. Obama haters on the left and right can eat unicorn shit. FAIC
I am very glad the president is not releasing the photo. He put it best, we do not need a trophy. I thought the photos of Saddam’s dead sons were grotesque and unnecesary. We should not be bragging about taking out Osama.
Somewhat relatedly, my four-year-old niece saw Osama’s picture on the news and asked if he was Jesus.
I don’t see anything wrong with being happy about getting rid of a murderer. That’s unequivocally a good thing.
31.
flukebucket
A photograph would prove absolutely nothing. Release a photograph and those who do not believe he is dead will just say the picture is clearly a fake.
I am glad they are not releasing a photograph and I hope they never, ever do.
32.
Woodrow L. Goode, IV
You folks understand, I hope, that there already is a photo that purports to be dead body of Usama Bil Laden, and that a lot of people are looking at it.
Hence, neither poll response “C” nor poll response “D” can be achieved.
The U.S. can try to say “No, that photo isn’t of Bin Laden, but, no, we’re not going to release.” The likelihood that anyone in the Arab World will believe that claim–given the government’s track record of accuracy and transparency in matters pertaining to the Middle East– is pretty damned slim.
Plus, not showing a photo makes you vulnerable to a fraud that’s been Photoshopped to be offensive. If I’m working for Al-Qaeda, I’ll have Lynndie England holding up bin Laden’s severed head and smirking– and then urinating on it.
I’m not eager to see a trophy photo released, but if the goal is to hold down resentment and reduce the chance of reprisals, trying to keep the lid on is the least productive option.
33.
Mike Kay (Team America)
Dan Burton is shooting melons in his backyard trying to recreate the evidence as we type.
34.
mistermix
Sounds like a FOIA will ultimately get them released.
I dunno. Why can’t we go with the option of making them available to ghouls who want to look at them vs publishing them in newspapers?
OTOH, I do think it’s human nature to want to look at stuff like that. I’ll confess to having watched the video of Saddam Hussein’s execution and thus being a ghoul myself.
Well, on the one hand, the killing of OBL will cause Terrorists to attack us and Kill Us All!!, but Obama should be willing to release the photos even if it pi#@es off Muslims and makes them want to kill us.
Right, someone remind me .. what was all the hullaballoo about showing photos of flag-draped U.S. coffins about, anyone remember? Was it that it was “inflammatory” and would “embolden the enemy” or that it was “disrespectful to the troops” or just what? Maybe all three?
I think the RWNJs just will try to make political hay out of whatever comes their way, and whether it is consistent with any of their previous positions or not is immaterial. And personally the fact that they can’t be unified with the rest of the country on this one thing, that they have to piss on everyone’s “party” YET AGAIN out of pure partisanship just further shows them for what they are.
I mean cripes it’s not like releasing a death photo is going to satisfy them. They’ll just bitch about kerning or fonts or some kind of bullshit to say it was a fake.
40.
Tim, Interrupted
Proof of life, and proof of death are ancient, rational ways of showing that you’ve done what you said you would do.
For the delicate flowers who think this is “ghoulish,” what? It’s cool to cheer on the infliction of violent death as long as you don’t have to actually see it?
Wusses.
Of course it won’t convince the fringe psychos, but those are not the target audience here.
I thought I read at the time of the release of the Saddam death photos that it was against international law to publish such photos. Anyone else remember that?
@MikeJ: There’s a big difference beween being proud of a win and bragging. But releasing the photo isn’t about either. For me it’s a basic issue of dignity. It’s unnecessary. Anyone who denies that he’s dead won’t be swayed by the photo. The birther nonsense should prove that well enough. So given that, what’s the point of releasing the photo other than for people to get their rocks off over it or to take joy that it’s pissing off Muslims?
46.
MonkeyBoy
The whole question revolves around a moral issue. In the US the 8th amendment speaks against “cruel or unusual punishment” which is one reason we don’t torture the condemned and then display them in a public location so everybody can witness their humiliation and decay.
I believe the whole notion of torture for fun and corpse display arose from religious concerns – the torture and display was mainly to show how weak and impotent the condemned’s God or Gods were in being unable to prevent such actions.
The thing about moral rules is that they can break down in extreme situations involving survival – Jews can eat pork if the alternative is starving to death and if one holds that “killing is wrong” it can be justified to prevent being killed.
All of the advocates for torture and trophy display of the dead seem to think that “The War on Terror” is an extreme situation involving the survival of the USA and thus moral constraints should be relaxed. Since this isn’t a question of survival I guess they are just looking for an excuse for their ghoulish voyeurism.
While I agree with the Admin’s decision to not release them officially, I’m sure they’re all walking around saying “It sure would be a shame if the pictures were to leak, though. *COUGH*”
Funny how so many also went along with not even seeing photographs of the American dead arriving in flag-draped coffins in case it upset morale — not to mention getting rather agitated and tut-tuttering after seeing bodies of dead Americans hanging on bridges with “just happy” crowds.
‘Scuse me, I’m going to go off and pretend I’m from a different planet for a little bit. It’ll probably turn out to be mad as pants too but maybe mad as a different sort of pants, for a welcome change.
You folks understand, I hope, that there already is a photo that purports to be dead body of Usama Bil Laden, and that a lot of people are looking at it.
We’re shielded from the truth – as in “graphic photos of dead things” – all the time. We know that thousands upon thousands of Americans die in car crashes every year, and we know that TV news crews, not to mention official investigators, record the scenes all the time. All the gun deaths in this country – how many close-ups of the decedents do you see regularly? Hardly any.
I’m sure there are a lot of reasons, including the very important ones of not horrifying the survivors even further, and protecting young children from the images. Also it’s simply upsetting, intrusive, and not necessary to the recitation of events.
In my opinion it isn’t usually any of our goddamn business to examine the remains. When I worked for a law firm, it was my business to examine crash scene photos. I had to organize the evidence for the file. The dead bodies looked thoroughly dead. They were once walking and talking, and then they were dead and mangled. Dead people look really, really dead.
I’m tending toward General Stuck’s opinion at #23. If and when photos are released, I won’t be seeking them out. I know what dead people look like, and because I have no reason to doubt bin Laden’s death, I don’t need to see it.
52.
RalfW
I almost immediately suspected an Obama (erm, Sully) rope-a-dope coming on. Like the birth certificate, Obama will wait till the wingers have again shown themselves to be foaming crazys, then he’ll quietly release the pics on a slow news night right after Butters McWhoopsie spouts drano out his mouth on TeeVee over the fake death of Osama.
I guess teh google is supposed to be used before asking a question. It wasn’t the photos of Saddam I remembered. It was the photos of his sons.
In 2003, CNN reported that the U.S. release of photos of Uday and Qusay was legal. The brothers were not prisoners of war and there is “no stipulation in the Geneva Convention against releasing pictures of dead bodies.”
The release, however, brought calls of hypocrisy from people who said the United States was publishing the kind of pictures it criticized others for releasing. During a press conference, Rumsfeld said he weighed the issue carefully.
Who cares? The point is it is ok to kill an enemy of the state with a elite team on a different nuclear-armed muslim country, capture and then execute it without trial, without photographs or videos, and then drop the body in the sea.
American Justice
/irony
56.
The Dangerman
Thankfully, once again, Obama is the adult in the room; those that are bitching about no photo will be the same that will bitch that the photo is fake or dated back to when Dubya Osama whacked but Obama’s just trotting it out now to try to bury the fact that his birth certificate is also an obvious fake.
I might support a limited release of the photo for 9/11 victims families that want to see it for closure, but I’d also strip search the potential viewers to make sure no cell phones or cameras.
57.
Martin
@themann1086: I disagree. One of the best measures of the competence of this whole endeavor is how disciplined it has been. There’s been no leaks, nobody stepping out of line, etc. I don’t think that’s going to change. I think Obama or someone similarly high up laid down the law on this one.
But now that we know that some members of Congress have the photo, I expect they’ll leak it before long, and I think the WH would see that as a failure.
58.
Mandramas
@Martin: So, Dignity is to drop a executed body on the sea with no trial and no evidence.
/Irony
The mossad at least made a trial with Eichmann.
Of course, 9/11 victims didn’t have a judge, as neither had all the civilians killed in the Irak and Afganisthan invasions. We are far from any dignity in those issues.
59.
danimal
I just hope when one of these right-wing senators claims that releasing the photos would end crazy conspiracy theories, there is a Dem there to remind everyone that the GOP is more than willing to entertain wild-ass crazy conspiracy theories with or without photographic evidence.
Ahhhhh, moderation hell for quoting Sarah Palin. My life sucks!
61.
dollared
@Martin: Oh dear, when on Earth did we ever care about dignity? Do you think Patrick Henry was a dignified guy? I bet everyone in his church was perpetualy annoyed with that blowhard.
62.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
I’m surprised nobody’s figure it out yet: The OBL death photos will be nailed into an anonymous looking wooden crate and wheeled off on a handcart into the most obscure and dusty corner of an ginormous warehouse, and left there to rot.
So, Dignity is to drop a executed body on the sea with no trial and no evidence.
We don’t try dead people. And funerals, like weddings, are for the observers, not the participants.
64.
stuckinred
@Mandramas: You are goddamn right it is. Fuck Usama Bin Laden. If he wanted to surrender he had 9 years to do so. I would take a chance on one Seal being hurt for some bullshit notion of fairness.
Rep. Duncan Hunter, member of the House Armed Services Committee, in an interview with CNN:
“I want to see them personally…”I did three tours. I’m not talking as a Member of the Armed Services Committee – as a Marine who did three tours because of 9/11. As Americans we deserve to see them.” Sen. Lindsey Graham, Republican member of the Armed Services Committee
“I respectfully disagree with President Obama’s decision not to release the photos. It’s a mistake. The whole purpose of sending our soldiers into the compound, rather than an aerial bombardment, was to obtain indisputable proof of Bin Laden’s death. I know Bin Laden is dead. But the best way to protect and defend our interests overseas is to prove that fact to the rest of the world. I’m afraid the decision made today by President Obama will unnecessarily prolong this debate.”
68.
Dennis SGMM
Considering how the conservatives all accepted Obama’s citizenship as soon as he produced his birth certificate it’s certain that producing a photo of OBL’s corpse, or even a Sam Peckinpah-style slow motion movie of bin Laden being shot dead, will convince them of the truth this time around. There is absolutely no point in catering to people who are invested in lies.
69.
dollared
@The Dangerman: Yeah, because censorship is all part what we ask for when we ask the Serious People to lead our country. And when we grant them immunity for torture. And when we agree that they shouldn’t have to pay taxes.
Hellooooooo, it’s information! We are a democracy!
70.
Mandramas
@Belaron: So, a good way to avoid the trial is to kill the suspect swiftly, right?
Bin Laden and the DEVGRU team encountered each other on the second floor[91] of the residence; bin Laden was “wearing the local loose-fitting tunic and pants known as a shalwar kameez.”[64] “The encounter with bin Laden lasted only seconds,” according to Politico, and took place during “the last five or 10 minutes” of the raid.[61] According to U.S. officials, Bin Laden resisted the American special operation team. He was unarmed when he was shot.[92] Bin Laden was killed by at least one and possibly two American bullets, one of which struck the left side of his head. (The second shot was either a second bullet to the head, or to the chest.)
(Source: Wikipedia)
So, a unarmed suspect resisted the assault in an encounters that lasted only seconds. It looks like a surprise assassination mission to me. Maybe I was playing so much videogames.
71.
dollared
@stuckinred: @Larkspur: But we’re not talking about your personal preference – we’re talking about a government decision to withhold information.
72.
danimal
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): Maybe we should have announced Osama’s funeral all throughout the Middle East and invited all Al Qaeda operatives to attend. I’m sure hundreds would have attended or given their RSVPs.
…even a Sam Peckinpah-style slow motion movie of bin Laden being shot dead…
The Seals are wearing night gear; I wonder if their helmet video has similar technology? If there is video of the confrontation, I would trot that out, freezing the frame as the Seal pulls the trigger. Sure, I guess that video lasts less than 5 seconds, but that should satisfy some of these folks clamoring for proof of death.
Count me in on that ghoulish fringe! I’m curious, and would probably peak at the photograph if it were made available, I’d even say I do want to see it. But at the same time, I think it best that we not make a spectacle out of this.
75.
General Stuck
So, Dignity is to drop a executed body on the sea with no trial and no evidence.
Try to think of it as US AID of fish food in a really big aquarium.
Sure, I guess that video lasts less than 5 seconds, but that should satisfy some of these folks clamoring for proof of death.
In any sane nation, the word of the president would have been enough. Had this occurred on Bush’s watch the Republicans would be voting to put his image on the dollar bill and collecting funds to have his sorry mug carved onto Mt. Rushmore – all without a bit of corroboration. As it stands, the prez is a blackity-black-black Muslim who faked the whole thing so that his co-religionist bin Laden can live a carefree life on the French Riviera.
78.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Mandramas: You know, reading through your posts, I see someone desperate to throw the one sentence out that will convince everyone here that killing bin Laden was exactly the same as killing a jaywalker. It’ll never work because there is a difference between the two. Heck, even the Dalai Lama says there’s a difference. And from what I have read, Gandhi and MLK would have seen the difference as well, though I don’t need anyone else’s authority as cover.
79.
Mike Kay (Team America)
that didn’t take long
photo leaked.
for those at work and can’t see, he has a lifeless expression, his mouth is agape, and his skin is discolored. And this is surprising, his beard was trimmed off (he really was hiding in plain sight).
I know people throw around that the “troops will be harmed” by whatever action, but I truly believe that this is different.
Of course you do.
Because it’s Obama doing it.
In a dramatic late-night appearance in the White House press room, President George W. Bush announced that Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction had been found in a secret stronghold near the Syrian border. … “These instruments of evil have been obliterated and scattered to the four winds,” the president said. “No trace of them remains.” … “They destroyed all evidence of the weapons as soon as they found them in a top-secret operation? That doesn’t make sense to me,” Feingold said in an interview with NBC’s Tim Russert. “Now no one else can independently confirm what actually happened. We are supposed to take the administration’s word at face value – no questions asked. I’m not saying the weapons weren’t there, but force-feeding a docile public with unconfirmable statements – especially about matters which have been swathed in murk and mystery for years – this is not the way a democracy is supposed to work.”
I’ve had it with the moral purist trolls of the left showing up here and preening about how evil this country is for the eliminating its most identifiable foreign enemy. Wah, Empire! Wah, lawless assassination! Go screw yourself. This was a legal action, perhaps one of the only legal actions taken in the GWOT in the last 5 years or so. If you don’t like it, hang up your spurs, and I mean that in a very specific sense. By your very existence, you contribute and fund “The Empire”, purchasing products that encourage further globalization, paying taxes; even those who shop conscientiously and make efforts to minimizing their global footprint still proverbially walk all over the place. Put your money where your whinging is or kindly STFU. Move to Idaho and live in a shack or give all your belongings away and become an ascetic.
On Day 3, when you realize that it’s all kind of crap, this living as morally pure being above the rest of the world, you can join us back here in morally gray, nuanced reality where America is neither an absolute evil nor is it the most high nation in the eyes of whatever God you want, and is thusly infallible. My Lord in absentia, the faux piety here in the last 4 days in various threads has been nothing short of noxious.
86.
dollared
@stuckinred: Graham kinda makes sense here – it’s not just the photo, it’s the DNA evidence, it’s the recording of the body ID by the wife, etc.
The presumption should be that the government releases information. Remember – we used to think that was important?
87.
Mandramas
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): I don’t want to convince anyone. I’m just sharing my POV. There are human rights that should be respected even in those extreme cases, since if you justify execution without trial you are becoming a terrorist, since you are ruling by the rule of fear. America did it on Nuremberg trials, after all.
88.
Triassic Sands
I don’t need to see a photo of bin Laden’s body. Donald Trump will tell me whether Osama is dead or not. After all, he’s an unimpeachable source…in the last 64 years he’s never been wrong…not even once.
@John – A Motley Moose: Like we give a shit about international law anymore. They are so quaint and have a tendency not to treat America like the exception to the rule.
96.
tim serbo
@eemom: i watched the Saddam snuff video from a shitty steerage-class airport hotel room in Dubai, on my way back from Xmas week in Yemen–and wasn’t that a joy. never felt more conspicuously American before or since. it’s probably why i didn’t leave my room until after dark, and then only to dine at the surprisingly decent mexican restaurant in a classier part of the hotel. strange place, Dubai. though not as strange as Yemen.
I think being happy and bragging are too different things. I just think it is not presidential too brag. If you want to brag I don’t really care, but the president represents the US to the world. He has a higher standard of decorum on this issue than you or I do. IMHO.
98.
Dennis SGMM
@Joe Beese:
I didn’t write “any president”, did I? Your comments strongly suggest that you have a paper asshole.
99.
Mike Kay (Team America)
the deathers sound like the white collar birthers
the white collar birthers said Obama’s long form birth certificate was simply a matter of transparency and public’s right to know if the Obama was qualified — that no government (Hawaii) should be taken at face value.
100.
gex
@Jay in Oregon: If that were the case, then they would be right to accuse him of timing it for political reasons.
101.
Mike Kay (Team America)
How do we know Hitler is dead if there’s no photo of his corpse/remains?
@freelancer: Yeah, maybe I’m a troll. That’s explain everything. Feel free to pie me.
I’m sure that America is not the absolute evil neither the greater good. I just think that you can’t says that you are better that your enemies if both use the same methods. If you drop the pretense to be the good guy, I will remain silent because I know how the human nature is.
Yes, they won’t be satisfied until they have provoked Muslim rioting in the streets. Bin Laden is nothing but another, more graphic, insult like “draw Mohammed day.” I love Obama for making such a graceful and honorable decision. I just wish that the entire blood gorging Republican party and its death porn consumers were worthy of having such an evolved President.
aimai
107.
gex
@Mandramas: Well if Wikipedia says it, it must be true. I mean the news is still fresh, we’re still dealing with “initial” reports. So obviously the place to go for demonstrably true information on the event is Wikipedia.
And Janis Joplin speed walked everywhere and was afraid of toilets. (30 Rock)
108.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@Mike Kay (Team America): When he ordered the body of Hitler to be disposed of, and any graphic proof of Hilter’s death supressed or destroyed, Uncle Joe spawned quite a cottage industry of conspiracy theories about the possibility of Hitler surviving the war.
If what Lindsay Graham says is true, that he knows that Osama is dead, then you would hope that the wingers would be happy that one of their own is saying that they “know that Bin Laden is dead” and leave it at that. Let Michelle Bachmann and the other winger pols see the photos and DNA tests. Maybe even let them talk to some of the people who were on the ground there, especially the ones who were present when Osama was shot and killed.
If they can’t take the word of our troops, along with the physical evidence, then fuck them as it would be clear that they don’t even trust our military.
@Jonathan: “I’m curious, and would probably peak at the photograph…”
In what way would you “peak”?
Forget it, I don’t want to know.
110.
Mandramas
@gex: If the CIA says it, it must be true, then. Could you guide me to the right place to get all the trustable information?
111.
Martin
@Mandramas: You want us to put the dead body on trial? And when do we put all trial evidence in the public sphere. Honestly, you sound like a birther here.
Obama wasn’t executed any more than the guy who tried to rob that Apple Store and got shot by the guard wasn’t executed.
As a human being, Bin Laden may have deserved compassion and even forgiveness, the Dalai Lama said in answer to a question about the assassination of the Al Qaeda leader. But, he said, “Forgiveness doesn’t mean forget what happened. … If something is serious and it is necessary to take counter-measures, you have to take counter-measures.”
I for one am pretty comfortable being as much of a bloodthirsty, right-wing imperialist as the Dalai Lama.
112.
gex
@freelancer: I could use a cigarette after that. Beautiful.
113.
aimai
I’d like to point out that this whole deather conspiracy makes absolutely no sense. If Osama isn’t dead he has only to issue another video, or order more attacks, or even walk out into public view. Claiming he was dead when he wasn’t would be a hugely short sighted strategy.
Also, I’d like to add one more observation. People forget what a big deal it was that Colin Powell went before the UN and lied. Or when Bush undermined the honor of his office by lying repeatedly. During the 2004 election Kerry and a whole lot of other people alluded to this famous incident:
I mean, we can remember when President Kennedy in the Cuban missile crisis sent his secretary of state to Paris to meet with DeGaulle. And in the middle of the discussion, to tell them about the missiles in Cuba, he said, “Here, let me show you the photos.” And DeGaulle waved them off and said, “No, no, no, no. The word of the president of the United States is good enough for me.”
When the Republican party, through its mouthpieces on Fox, accuse Obama of having lied about Osama’s death they are creating a situation in which they are impeaching the honor and probity of a sitting President, Vice President, Secretary of State and the entire chain of command. They are telling the world that as far as the Republican party is concerned the word of the President of the US is not good enough for them. Truly they are the party of rule or ruin. They would rather destroy the office of the Presidency than allow it to be held by a Democrat.
aimai
114.
gex
@Joe Beese: Welcome to words. “The” is a definite article, referring to a specific item. “A” is an indefinite article referring to a class of items.
You’re welcome.
@aimai: And the great thing about inflaming Muslims around the world is it increases however slightly the chances of another attack so they can rip into Obama on that.
115.
General Stuck
I just think that you can’t says that you are better that your enemies if both use the same methods. If you drop the pretense to be the good guy, I will remain silent because I know how the human nature is.
OBL declared war on the US. Maybe he had good reason to, maybe not. A bullet (or two) in the head are not uncommon fates for those who enter that dragon, and act on it. And it is certainly not an unusual “method” in such a circumstance.
The US and Obama took the risk of sending in our blood to conduct an act of war, and it was that, when they could have just used a Hellfire missile.
It has long been reported that OBL either wore a suicide vest, or had some other means of self expiration if cornered by the US. I am not going to begrudge or second guess those Navy Seals if they pulled the trigger a little faster than normal in this situation, given that possibility.
The WH debunked claims that he was armed, when they didn’t really have to. Maybe he reached for something like a vest, and the Seals fired for that reason. It would have been more fitting imo, to have set the building on fire, and let the fucker jump out the second floor window, just for the sake of poetic justice/
116.
dollared
Gang, it is not about the Republicans. It is not about the A-rabs. It is not about Our Boys in Uniform. It is not about dignity or respect for the dead.
There was a major event involving our government. It killed someone. It is now withholding the evidence. I humbly suggest that it might withhold the evidence for a period of time to allow feelings to be calmed and to study the evidence and make a well-thought out report with exhibits. Let’s give them, say, 90 days.
But after that, release the shit. We are a democracy.
I cannot believe that the Balloon Juice crowd has a problem with having a free press and an accountable government. Even if those things occasionally give Lindsay Graham a happy.
Bin Laden is nothing but another, more graphic, insult like “draw Mohammed day.”
That’s a false equivalence. Muslim strictures against showing the likeness of Mohammed are religious in nature, and the insult of “Draw Mohammed Day” goes to the heart of the faith. Showing death photos of bin Laden don’t come close, by many orders of magnitude. In fact, judging by the images one can see in the Middle Eastern media, graphic depictions of violent death seem to be taken pretty matter-of-factly. Our society seems to be the one that has to be shielded from images of the consequences of our actions.
119.
Martin
@aimai: Well, it was the President of France, after all. Surprised he didn’t surrender to Kennedy on the spot, just in case.
/teabagger
120.
Jon H
@aimai: ” Bin Laden is nothing but another, more graphic, insult like “draw Mohammed day.” ”
I suspect your putting Bin Laden and Mohammad on the same level would probably be more offensive to them than publishing a photo of Bin Laden.
I’m guessing there are lots of Muslims who would like to see the photo because they hated him, like the Somalians who held a rally to commemorate Bin Laden’s death.
121.
gex
@Mandramas: Well, it isn’t only the CIA saying something, is it. My point is that if you only have Wikipedia to back up your point, it is not terribly convincing. But of course, what you are doing here is asking me to disprove your point rather than trying to make your point yourself. Do your own work.
Looking at LGM, they seem to be arguing that the legality of this hinges in part on whether the SEAL team took fire, not whether bin Laden was armed. His resistance, even if unarmed, further establishes the legality of killing him. Also, the use of a commando team as opposed to an air-strike meets requirements for proportionality and demonstrates concern for minimizing civilian casualties. So portraying this operation as an egregious violation of human rights seems to be hyperbolic at best.
Where it seems the debate could begin, were one so inclined, is whether justice is best served by killing him or taking him alive and putting him on trial.
125.
Lol
It’s called falsifiability. If OBL wasn’t killed, it’s pretty easy to prove otherwise. He need only pop up alive. Or someone can produce his *real* body. Lying about killing him carries so many risks because it’d be easy to prove them wrong if they were.
In contrast, with the WMDs, how do you prove something doesn’t exist? Far more reasonable to be skeptical. Lying carries very few risks so a lie I more likely in that situation.
As it is, no one in Al Quaeda or OBL’s family is insisting he’s still alive. In fact, they’re confirming his death at the hands of the US as well.
But killing OBL is good news for Obama so the Professional Ledt considers it to be a bad thing and has to seek out the worst angle.
I never agree with General Stuck but I do agree with him on this. Also I think that the line he quotes
“you can’t say you are better than your enemies if you…” i
s
deserves more scorn than he heaped on it. Its the the most pathetic kind of childish American exceptionalism. We aren’t better than our enemies. That’s an incredibly low bar, by the way, but in any event we are an imperial power that occasionally uses its military and economic power to protect or avenge its average citizens as it frequently does to protect its corporations and wealthy. That’s actually one of the better uses for our power–preventing lunatics from killing harmless officeworkers while they are going about their ordinary lives. Way better than invading Iraq in order to seize the oil.
In addition Americans aren’t better than revenge. We love revenge. And for damn sure Americans, except for the odd total pacifist, aren’t better than killing off a known enemy. Not only would refusing to kill off a national enemy be foolish, it would be immoral by normal standards. Obama accepted a duty to protect the constitution and as many of the citizens of the US as he can. In executing Osama he executed his duty. That he also aspires to creating a space in which Americans are less bloodthirsty and careless of non-citizen feelings is admirable. But its aspirational, not a reflection of who Americans really are.
aimai
127.
Martin
@dollared: Right we’re a democracy, not a jury. If we brought some guy up on federal kiddie porn charges, by your argument the photos of the kids should be published for all to see. After all, isn’t that what a free press an accountable government would do?
128.
Martin
@Comrade Scrutinizer: Fuuuuuuuuuck! Man, I try so hard and yet I still fail.
since if you justify execution without trial you are becoming a terrorist, since you are ruling by the rule of fear.
We have a number of rules that justify execution without a trial, from self defense to public protection to war. In a lot of cases there has to be a show of restraint. If a man is lying on the ground surrendering, there is no justification in shooting him, no matter what he has done. bin Laden did not do that, whether or not he had a gun.
I’m also afraid that in your rush to paint everyone that thinks the world is a better place now a terrorist, you have missed the point of terrorism. You have equated a government as a terrorist organization: We have cops with the ability to kill specifically as a deterrent through fear. A terrorist attempts to make people do things entirely not in their self interest – see taking off shoes and groping at an airport – out of fear.
You miss my point entirely. I am not comparing Osama to Mohammed. I am comparing the right wing’s propensity to try to dream up insulting things to do to Muslims in general, Muslim leaders, or Muslim ideals as a provocation. Palin and others explicitly wish to see the photos shown as previously they wished to see the body degraded (buried in a pigskin etc…) not because they think that muslims equate Osama to MOhammed but because they ascribe to the same theories of Muslim manhood that Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld did when they read their one book on “Arab” culture and decided that sexual humiliation and degradation of the quran were good ways to break Islamic prisoners.
Also, I think the notion that some hypothetical, made up desire of some imaginary muslims to see the body should be respected is incredibly insulting to Osama’s real world muslim opposition. Do you have any proof that there is a serious groundswell of death image porn seekers within the world wide muslim community?
aimai
131.
Dennis SGMM
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Your version is better. Joe seems to be alienated from both grammar and context.
Where it seems the debate could begin, were one so inclined, is whether justice is best served by killing him or taking him alive and putting him on trial.
But it doesn’t need to begin there. We have objective proof that the US avoided all of the avenues at their disposal that would have led to OBLs death in favor of one that allowed for his capture. If the resulting path was the easiest, we might need to look farther, but it wasn’t, it was the hardest.
If executing OBL was our goal, we’d have bombed the house and sent the SEALs in to ID the body – either by Tomahawk or Predator, and even if we wanted the opportunity to collect intel, we could have done it by AC-130 that would have minimized (relatively speaking) property damage. We even avoided that path.
Had we bombed a house in Pakistan and OBL wasn’t there, there’d be little political fallout from it. If we lost a SEAL team, whether OBL was there or not, the political fallout would be huge.
The only reason to take the risk that we took was to leave the option open for capture, even if that option didn’t present itself.
Not to mention we sent a tactical team in to perform a surgical strike on a High Value Target with National Security implications, and we sent the team in and not Hellfires in order to mitigate collateral damage. This is decidedly notthe behavior of our enemy. So his point is moot there, too.
134.
PS
@Martin: The Dalai Lama’s comments were rather Delphic, you know. It’s not at all clear that he condones the killing.
I am troubled by assassination, even in this case, which is about as good as you can get. That’s not faux piety, it’s a principled commitment to the rule of law. We can disagree, but let’s be civil about it.
I am not inclined to criticize Obama for doing what he said he’d do — I did criticize him for adopting that position in the election campaign, but I give him credit for consistency, and for acting in a carefully considered manner.
It’s not at all clear that he condones the killing.
I don’t expect that he would condone it, but he doesn’t seem to be condemning it either. I’m just amazed that these assholes here are trying to out-pacify the Dalai Fucking Lama.
The only reason to take the risk that we took was to leave the option open for capture, even if that option didn’t present itself.
One other possibility is that we wanted to collect proof of his death.
Whatever the case, I think that sending the SEALs was the right thing to do, and though I’m usually in favor of putting people on trial, I’m not losing any sleep over the fact that bin Laden’s in a watery grave. It’s not as a poetic an end as Stuck envisioned, but the anonymity seems fitting.
137.
dollared
@Martin: Stupid analogy. We have a long history of protection of the privacy rights of minor victims of sex offenses. Are you suggesting that we provide the same privacy rights to mass murderers?
138.
aimai
Jon H’s argument that the muslim world might need to see the Obama death pictures led me to this interesting quote from Steve Clemons:
Over the last couple of days, I have talked to many senior level correspondents and executives at major Arabic news networks including but not limited to Al Jazeera and Al Arabiya. I asked them what they thought their viewing audience “needed to see” regarding the death of Osama bin Laden.
The answer has been consistent and uniform. Not withstanding any decision to release a “death photo” of Osama bin Laden — which I personally believe should be released, photos of bin Laden’s corpse being scrubbed, and receiving final Muslim death rites should be released simultaneously.
Bin Laden was one of the world’s greatest villains, and many in the Muslim world completely accept that — but at the same time, they strongly believe that respect for bin Laden as a Muslim translates into respect for all Muslims, good and bad. The White House and those involved with tracking and killing bin Laden feel similarly as so much emphasis has been placed by the White House on the issue that bin Laden received a burial at sea consistent with Islamic tradition.
One of the things I really admire about Obama is his ability to patiently think through the various options. Since they were careful to give Osama Muslim burial rights I would have thought they might well have taken a photographic record of the washing of the body and its handling. In a better world I’d think the administration would be willing, and even eager, to demonstrate respect for Islam and the Muslim world by releasing those photos rather than mere death photos.
But the President isn’t operating in that world. Every gesture of civility and honor towards the Islamic world is taken as a provocation by his domestic political enemies. The right wing doesn’t want the pictures to “prove” Osama is dead. They want the pictures as another form of trophy dance on the Muslim world. Our foreign policy and the future of our relations with a billion people are being held hostage to the most grotesquely childish and spiteful people who have ever sought political power. Obama literally can’t win. He can only do what is least harmful. If that doesn’t satisfy either side–the Muslim world or the Republicans well, that’s the situation he’s been forced into.
I humbly suggest that it might withhold the evidence for a period of time to allow feelings to be calmed and to study the evidence and make a well-thought out report with exhibits. Let’s give them, say, 90 days.
I say release the historical documents in 30 years.
But killing OBL is good news for Obama so the Professional Ledt considers it to be a bad thing and has to seek out the worst angle.
Not ALL of the professional left. Seems Barack has finally measured up in the “man up” department. It’s swoon city in the ivory towers for our fav studseeker.
But now the president has shown he can lead straight-on and that, unlike Jimmy Carter, he knows how to order up that all-important backup helicopter. He has said that those who call him a wimp are mistaken, that there is often muscular purpose beneath his diffident surface.
Oh My! “the all important second helicopter” fans self
Maybe not enough vertical lift the first time?
“muscular purpose” Goddam right Modo. Now cool yer fanny in a bucket of ice for awhile, and quit writing the stupid “wimpy” Obama drek.
142.
Suffern ACE
Favor releasing the photo. Wouldn’t make an effort to see it, though. There’s lots of gruesome images of the world that I won’t see. The idea that this one will spark out of control rage-we’ll find out. Eventually its going to come out anyway.
143.
MikeJ
I find it amusing that I’m constantly told that it is wrong for me to state pseudonymously on a blog that a guy who confessed to a crime is guilty before he’s had a trial. Then some of the same people throw around words like “execution”.
144.
dollared
@Nellcote: Because you would have been willing to wait 30 years to see Dick Cheney’s evidence of WMDs in Iraq?
Or what is your standard for the government withholding information? Does it vary by political party? How long should Japan withhold information on pollution around Fukushima?
145.
Nellcote
I don’t want to see the photo(s). Will the msm protect me from having to view them?
@Martin: There’s a difference. Publishing the photos of the kids in a kiddie porn case would demonstrably cause additional harm to children who are supposed to be innocent victims. That would be a mitigating factor against publication of those photos.
In the case of the photos of bin Laden, the only thing being harmed is the sensibilities of potential viewers and people who don’t think that publication of such photos are appropriate. The two situations aren’t the same.
148.
catclub
@Nellcote: “I say release the historical documents in 30 years.’
Anyone remember the historical documents in Galaxy Quest?
In the case of the photos of bin Laden, the only thing being harmed is the sensibilities of potential viewers and people who don’t think that publication of such photos are appropriate. The two situations aren’t the same.
I certainly have no need to see the photos. I would find it ghoulish and I believe that the easy falsifiability of the claim is enough to establish that it is true. I do not thing the Obama Admin would be dumb enough to make the claim if it weren’t true; the downside is just too high. If a false Osama pops up at some point, I would support release of proof in order to debunk him.
154.
Linnaeus
I’m fine with the decision not to release the photos; if they’re deemed necessary to as some sort of proof, then perhaps they can be released to responsible parties who can be trusted to affirm what they see. But for general publication, releasing the photos would strike me as being in poor taste.
There is always the possibility that some civil libertarian zealot somewhere, (Pause)(cough) would start speculating that maybe Obama has OBL in the WH basement torturing him with Bee Gees tunes in his undies. So as to drop the dime on Al Zhawhiri and for later campaign ads. You know, from being worse than Bush and all.
156.
dollared
@Omnes Omnibus: And the legal justification for resisting a FOIA request would be?
Gosh, remember when we expected our government to provide information upon request?
Quaint – like the Geneva Convention. Or “conflict of interest.”
157.
chopper
i would love to see obama say he’s releasing video and it’s a total rickroll.
158.
Omnes Omnibus
@dollared: Please point out where I suggested resisting a FOIA request.
159.
danimal
@chopper: I was expecting that this: @Mike Kay (Team America): was a rickroll, but it wasn’t. Still pretty funny, though.
160.
El Cid
@MikeJ: It’s always important to remember the difference between the guidelines for speech in a court of law versus the public sphere.
It’s not somehow inferior or wrong to use arguments and phrasing which would not be allowed in courts of law or under certain legal conditions.
It’s only required that any statements intended to be taken seriously — like, in an important, established format like an anonymous comment section in a blog named “Balloon Juice” — depend on supported facts and/or logical arguments.
You can say “he did it” before a judge or jury ever thinks about the question. Otherwise few people would ever have been able to say anything about the horrid crimes of various tyrants before they ever faced court.
161.
Sixers
What % of people here whose moral high horse prevents them from even contemplating why the barbarians they live amongst would want to see the picture of a dead Osama will eventually take a look when its released? 98 or 99%?
I don’t need to see it but I’ll look when its released. Fuck him. Also I don’t need to hear the bullshit about him really not being dead for the next decade. We fucking killed the guy. Now we’re this moral beacon protecting the worlds delicate sensibilities?
@Sixers: I have no intention of seeking them out. I didn’t see any need to see the Daniel Pearl video or the Saddam execution. If they are on the front page of a newspaper or a webpage I will probably see them, but I have desire to look for them. FWIW I have never watched any of the Faces of Death videos either. It is not a moral high horse, I just don’t get my jollies that way. Any other questions?
164.
Caz
Did I miss something? I don’t see any party affiliated with the 53%. What party are you referring to as the party of necrophilia?
The only ones that should really be opposed to releasing the photos are muslims who supported bin Laden, so if their non-release is aimed at preventing retaliatory terrorism, then I guess I’m ok with it. Otherwise, I don’t see any reason why they shouldn’t release the photos. After all, that is the single best piece of evidence showing that we did, in fact, kill him.
It’s certainly not any more graphic, obscene or offensive than half the crap that’s on prime time TV. Most the CSI-type shows display a level of violence, morbidity, and gore that are as bad or worse than a photo of dead Osama with a bullet hole in his head.
We all saw the video of Saddam being hanged, so why not show us a photo of dead Osama??
165.
dollared
@Omnes Omnibus: When you said that the photo should not be released. So you support the decision to not release the photos/videos, but you would not object if Fox asks for it tomorrow and the White House releases it the same day? Then why did you waste the time thinking/writing about it?
166.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Sixers: I can honestly say I don’t care to look at dead people, friends or foes. I don’t care for open casket funerals but the peaceful serenity bestowed by undertaker magic is a far far different thing than the fresh rigidity of painful death.
I’m forced to think I must be a much much better person than the steaming piles of humanity.
167.
JCT
@aimai: Well put. I think I read somewhere that they did take pictures of the body being prepared for burial.
I certainly have no need to see the photos. I would find it ghoulish and I believe that the easy falsifiability of the claim is enough to establish that it is true. I do not thing the Obama Admin would be dumb enough to make the claim if it weren’t true; the downside is just too high. If a false Osama pops up at some point, I would support release of proof in order to debunk him.
Here is my whole comment, typo and all. Please show where in this statement I said the photo should not be released. I stand by my opinion that it would be ghoulish to release them. If a valid FOIA request is filed, I would not have any objection with the Obama Administration complying with such a request. Does this clear things up for you or should I explain further?
169.
dollared
No, I get it. You wanted to hear the sound of your voice, so you said that you sort of agreed with the president’s decision but you could change your mind. And when I pointed out that the president’s decision would be tested by a FOIA request, you made sure I understood that your post had no meaning whatsoever.
Its the the most pathetic kind of childish American exceptionalism. We aren’t better than our enemies. That’s an incredibly low bar, by the way, but in any event we are an imperial power that occasionally uses its military and economic power to protect or avenge its average citizens …
Well, none of this is ideal or even acceptable morally speaking, but yes, quite normal.
[Even from supposedly “enlightened” people … One of the more abhorrent things about reading how the whole Libya/NATO business went down was how easily Britain and France got back into their colonial power roles — with help from the US of course. After their long histories and with America’s most recent foibles you would think people would learn. But they don’t.]
I object to the line of argument primarily because it seems to come from people who profess to be highly skilled in political and moral insight. And I suspect that they don’t really care about amending this lens of “exceptionalism” because their rhetorical aim is mostly a naive attempt to separate themselves from our collective moral repugnance, and not to actually change anything.
172.
Paula
@Paula:
Should read:
Well, very little of this is ideal or even acceptable, in terms of “pure” judeo-xtian/Western morality, but yes, quite normal.
Personally, I think it’s sick that releasing the photos should even come up for debate. They mean nothing in the age of Photoshop, and would only fuel endless conspiracy theories.
If Osama isn’t dead, let him make some videos with a recent newspaper under his chin; and show us all up. And I really really wish some of these whiners would have started… several years ago.
When we really were being lied to, by a rich white born-again boy.
Now now, Modo’s a bonifide Villager, not one of the Villager Wannabes on the Professional Left. It’s a pretty insulting comparison…. though I’m not sure who it’s insulting to.
175.
Larkspur
Releasing the photos does nothing to confirm beyond anyone’s doubt that the dead guy is bin Laden. Confirming the death is the whole point of releasing the photo, yes? Well, it won’t accomplish that. It just won’t. So why is this an issue of transparency? There are a lot of photos that don’t get released. In this instance, we are being informed that there is photographic evidence, as well as forensic evidence, and the testimony of bin Laden’s surviving family members that Osama bin Laden is dead. We aren’t being fooled about the existence of the evidence, unless you think that the whole thing is a lie, in which case the photo won’t fucking convince you.
176.
Judas Escargot
Releasing the photos does nothing to confirm beyond anyone’s doubt that the dead guy is bin Laden.
And, even then, we should wait at least three days to make sure he doesn’t rise again. Just to be certain.
Hellooooooo, it’s information! We are a democracy!
Hellooooooo, what does democracy have to do with it? That we vote means every piece of information the government has must be released to the public? When have things ever been that way. If the FOIA request is granted then the administration will have to release it because that’s the law. Not because of our system of government.
The right wing doesn’t want the pictures to “prove” Osama is dead. They want the pictures as another form of trophy dance on the Muslim world. Our foreign policy and the future of our relations with a billion people are being held hostage to the most grotesquely childish and spiteful people who have ever sought political power.
aimai, you are so right. And I am so sick and tired of all their macho posturing.
180.
roshan
Releasing the photos is a bad idea after what that Florida “pastor” did with the Koran burning madness, and the wingnut uproar about the muslim center in NY. The result was a few dead UN workers in Afghanistan.
I agree. What is the point? Death presented in this fashion does nothing for our country and its interests.
I would prefer that we not release the photo — that the terrible image of a man shot between the eyes, covered in blood — that is not what we want to project from this act, is it? We want him taken out of action, which he was and not enobled in ANY WAY through implied suffering. We took him out. He disappeared. Period. Without even the horrible importance of being shown as bloodied or mortified. He is just not that important. Why make him important? Why give him the world press and the buzz?
OBL caused us great suffering and demeaned Islam in doing so. Justice has been done. Let his relatives grieve him – their right and obligation. I don’t want to see him and don’t want his mortification as any kind of even small martyrdom for him. Think of those people jumping from the World Trade Center and hitting the ground. They were anonymous. His final moments should not be in any way more important than theirs. Period
183.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Elie: Now, on the other hand, people still keep seeing Elvis everywhere after authorities failed to release a gruesome death photo. Do we really want to be talking about seeing Osama bin Laden driving a taxi or working at Burger King the rest of our lives?
*makes weighing gesture with both hands*
184.
rea
it’s a violation of the Geneva Conventions to display the dead bodies of your enemies as trophies. Pictures count, as a matter of common sense. And, I’m tired of the old argument that terrorists aren’t entitled to the protection of the Geneva Conventions–the important point is what barbarous treatment of our enemies does to us.
185.
Paul in KY
@Comrade Scrutinizer: I’ve seen Soviet pictures of his corpse on a medical examing table. Looked pretty real. Corpse was all burned, etc.
186.
Larkspur
Okay, check it out. This is from a news article in the Wall Street Journal (May 4, 2011 – “Conspiracy Theories on ‘Death’ Start to Spin”, by Yaroslav Trofimov and Tom Wright):
…In cafes in downtown Riyadh, bin Laden’s birthplace, men repeated another longstanding belief among some Arabs: that the terrorist mastermind never existed. “To be honest, I’ve never been convinced that there was such a person as Osama bin Laden,” said Osama al-Obeid, a Saudi banker….
First of all, it sounds like this guy would be a great fit at Powerline or Town Hall or some place, which is kind of charming in a hands-across-the-ocean Bizarro World way. Second, there is no way to connect with people of any nationality who are so ready to believe utter and complete bullshit, or who are willing to act like they believe it (even though they don’t really) because they think the posturing is important and laudable.
Those of you who want the photos released, this is not directed at you. You have credible, justifiable reasons for wanting the disclosure. It’s just that nothing is going to convince some people, ever.
Many many years ago I was in Moscow and stood in line to see Lenin’s corpse in his tomb in Red Square. We were allowed in two by two, and had to keep walking, into the building and right out again, obviously no pix, no talking, no gaping. I saw a waxy dead guy who looked like Lenin, but am I able to swear to you, under oath, that it was the actual preserved corpse of the actual once-living Lenin? Nope. (I think I was jet-lagged, because I swear to God I thought I saw the corpse blink, and I stopped in my tracks. Before I knew it, soldiers clamped down on my elbows and hustled me out. Nothing more, just back out into Red Square.)
187.
johnny walker
Holy hell, that thing she’s using for the poll publishes the first 3 Octets of your IP address if you leave a comment. On the other hand, instantly narrowing yourself down from 1 in 4.2 million to 1 in 255 while giving everyone on the planet a rough idea of where you live sounds like a small price to pay for getting your awesomely unique “f u obummer post teh pics” comment posted.
That is bat-shit insane.
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Emma
As a race, we are a ghoulish bunch.
Ghanima Atreides
lol
we spent a trillion dollars to whack this guy and we don’t even get a braggin’ trophy?
Jane2
Wanting to see a photo and expecting the public availability of any evidence beyond White House claims are two different things.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I think it was Jim Geraghty of NRO (?) who said that not showing the photos was protecting Muslim values at the expense of American values. As near as I can tell, it’s not the absence of the photos that offends American (NRO) values, as much as the idea of caring how Ay-Rabs may react.
Ghanima Atreides
@Emma: As a
racetribe, we are a ghoulish bunch.fixt.
Homo sapiens americanus.
A creature wholly bereft of class.
Nathan
They forgot to post #5:
“Yes, unless his corpse looks like Janet Jackson’s nipple, which no one must ever see.”
Jonathan
Don’t know if you noticed or not, but if you add up the people that don’t think the photo should be made available, then you have 27%. Perhaps that is the fringe stance?
dmsilev
It should come as no shock that Sarah Palin wants to see the pictures. She’s probably disappointed that bin Laden wasn’t shot from a helicopter.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
We will cause car wrecks to see car wrecks. For most people, this is the same thing.
Then there’s the 27% who it wouldn’t matter if it was released, they won’t believe it anyway.
Adding those together, it means to me that most people do not need to see it.
roshan
What were the poll numbers for the Abu Ghraib pics? I hope they want the world to see them too.
Calouste
I’m surpirsed that DougJ has lasted 3 days since OBL’s dead without making a reference to the Cure.
lamh34
Ughhh.
The same people who want to see this pic, or probably the same people who will be aghast at how truly gruesome the pictures are. The same people who will be so shocked when they see some random idiot walking around with the image on a t-shirt ala Che’ Guevera. The same people who would be outraged if some foreign country had killed one of our servicemen or politicians during war, and published the pictures for public consumption. The same people who will shocked, shocked I tell ya that their young children were exposed to such a gruesome sight.
Ughh..
I would prefer not to have a US sanctioned photo with the a WH press release and PBO’s signature of OBL. I know people throw around that the “troops will be harmed” by whatever action, but I truly believe that this is different.
To my mind, the MSM wants the pictures to be released so that they can get reaction shots of Muslim, Arab, or Middle Eastern crowds. They might even get a few “Death to America” signs, or maybe a couple of “Obama = Murderer” signs or the old faithful “Death to American infidels” signs. Then they can all feverishly and breathlessly produce segments titled “Why Do Muslims Hate America” or “Crowds condemn Obama for…” (yes, I mean Obama, not Osama).
I for one am really glad that the admin is not releasing an official photo as if they are released the Obama’s Christmas card.
Funny thing is, it’s not just Repubs who ask for the photos. What the hell is happening in this country?
Comrade Javamanphil
@Jonathan: That 27% includes 7% who personally want to see it but don’t think it would be wise to release it. I’ve got your ghoulish fringe right here.
dmsilev
@Jonathan: It’s Anne Althouse’s blog. She’s got a rather skewed readership (not counting the people who read her just to point and laugh). I suspect that a representative sample of the population would have a bigger chunk of people who would say “no thanks”.
freelancer
Pogues allusion in the title?
Awesome.
Villago Delenda Est
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I believe this is pretty much it. Considering Muslim values is an offense to American fucktard values, or something.
Chris
Eh. I agree that we’re a ghoulish bunch and that people who want to see the picture are sick, but I’m on the “it ain’t worth the fight” train. Fuck it, just release the picture. I don’t want to listen to three years of “show us the death certificate.”
Paul in KY
i wouldn’t mind seeing his body. I’ve fantasized various ways of killing him over the years. Wouldn’t bother me to see him there with his brains splattered.
What did bother me deeply was the picture those subhuman slimoids took of the poor young boy who was murdered by our forces in Afganistan. It was in the RS article ‘The Kill team’. He was 15 years old, just doing his chores when he was murdered.
I would like those people responsible for that hung & then I would love to see their bloated faces. Might make me forget Mr. Gul’s face.
Edit: Have to leave work now. I will respond to any comments tomorrow morning.
dollared
This is ridiculous.
In a free society, the overwhelming presumption is that information should be released, in all its detail. If they want to wait two weeks for people to calm down, great.
But it is not an indication of our adulthood that we think we need to be shielded from gory detail or protected from the anger of misquided people who live far away. It is an indication of our lack of courage and maturity.
We have the most incurious and self-censoring press in the “free” world. This is the caskets all over again. Apparently we really can’t handle the truth.
cyntax
Think I would have gone with “Staring at the sea, staring at the sand.” But that’s just me.
MikeJ
I think the administration should release a snapshot. Of the DNA tests. That should be enough evidence for anybody.
Although if holding out longer is going to crank up the crazy like the COLB did with birthers, really the only answer is to taunt them.
Mike Kay (Team America)
These are the same people who want to outlaw violence in video games.
Martin
We’re seriously presenting an internet poll as evidence? Is nobody aware of how long Bristol Palin remained on Dancing with the Stars, or the reasons behind that?
General Stuck
Obama will show the photos, but certainly not now with passions aflame, especially in certain quarters of the middle east, already undergoing cathartic upheavals.
Better to let the Muslim world clamor for a while and Obama to “reluctantly” release them later on, hopefully to keep down any murder and mayhem that may result.
As for all the hub bub about the exact circumstances of his demise, I will leave that to the vapors crew standing watch over every single detail of what happens for the proper propriety of the ultimate judgment of good and evil.
The shitstain is dead as Franco, finally. Whether it was purposeful at the last moment, or from the serendipity of firefights, I don’t fucking care. Obama haters on the left and right can eat unicorn shit. FAIC
Doug Harlan J
@freelancer:
Yes, Pogues allusion!
slimslowslider
Ugh, wish I had noticed that links to the Althouse Outhouse. Gross.
dollared
@General Stuck: Exactly. I think a good time would be during the Jeb Bush Keynote at next year’s Republican convention.
Martin
@dollared:
Nor can we handle dignity, apparently.
Lolis
I am very glad the president is not releasing the photo. He put it best, we do not need a trophy. I thought the photos of Saddam’s dead sons were grotesque and unnecesary. We should not be bragging about taking out Osama.
Somewhat relatedly, my four-year-old niece saw Osama’s picture on the news and asked if he was Jesus.
MikeJ
@Lolis:
I don’t see anything wrong with being happy about getting rid of a murderer. That’s unequivocally a good thing.
flukebucket
A photograph would prove absolutely nothing. Release a photograph and those who do not believe he is dead will just say the picture is clearly a fake.
I am glad they are not releasing a photograph and I hope they never, ever do.
Woodrow L. Goode, IV
You folks understand, I hope, that there already is a photo that purports to be dead body of Usama Bil Laden, and that a lot of people are looking at it.
Hence, neither poll response “C” nor poll response “D” can be achieved.
The U.S. can try to say “No, that photo isn’t of Bin Laden, but, no, we’re not going to release.” The likelihood that anyone in the Arab World will believe that claim–given the government’s track record of accuracy and transparency in matters pertaining to the Middle East– is pretty damned slim.
Plus, not showing a photo makes you vulnerable to a fraud that’s been Photoshopped to be offensive. If I’m working for Al-Qaeda, I’ll have Lynndie England holding up bin Laden’s severed head and smirking– and then urinating on it.
I’m not eager to see a trophy photo released, but if the goal is to hold down resentment and reduce the chance of reprisals, trying to keep the lid on is the least productive option.
Mike Kay (Team America)
Dan Burton is shooting melons in his backyard trying to recreate the evidence as we type.
mistermix
Sounds like a FOIA will ultimately get them released.
http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/05/ex-justice-department-official-obama-could-be-forced-to-release-the-osama-death-photos.php
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Calouste: That’s actually a good point. And made me LOL, which is no easy feat of late. Thanks.
toujoursdan
@Lolis: I agree.
eemom
I dunno. Why can’t we go with the option of making them available to ghouls who want to look at them vs publishing them in newspapers?
OTOH, I do think it’s human nature to want to look at stuff like that. I’ll confess to having watched the video of Saddam Hussein’s execution and thus being a ghoul myself.
The video quality sucked, btw.
Bulworth
Well, on the one hand, the killing of OBL will cause Terrorists to attack us and Kill Us All!!, but Obama should be willing to release the photos even if it pi#@es off Muslims and makes them want to kill us.
Conservalogic at its finest.
Southern Beale
Right, someone remind me .. what was all the hullaballoo about showing photos of flag-draped U.S. coffins about, anyone remember? Was it that it was “inflammatory” and would “embolden the enemy” or that it was “disrespectful to the troops” or just what? Maybe all three?
I think the RWNJs just will try to make political hay out of whatever comes their way, and whether it is consistent with any of their previous positions or not is immaterial. And personally the fact that they can’t be unified with the rest of the country on this one thing, that they have to piss on everyone’s “party” YET AGAIN out of pure partisanship just further shows them for what they are.
I mean cripes it’s not like releasing a death photo is going to satisfy them. They’ll just bitch about kerning or fonts or some kind of bullshit to say it was a fake.
Tim, Interrupted
Proof of life, and proof of death are ancient, rational ways of showing that you’ve done what you said you would do.
For the delicate flowers who think this is “ghoulish,” what? It’s cool to cheer on the infliction of violent death as long as you don’t have to actually see it?
Wusses.
Of course it won’t convince the fringe psychos, but those are not the target audience here.
John - A Motley Moose
I thought I read at the time of the release of the Saddam death photos that it was against international law to publish such photos. Anyone else remember that?
Villago Delenda Est
@flukebucket:
This.
There is no evidence that the crazy 27% will ever accept that Osama is dead, or that Obama was born in Hawaii.
Ever.
Nor will they ever STFU about it, either.
General Stuck
@mistermix:
Best way, imo. “Forced” equals reluctant.
bookcat
@roshan: perfect response right here
Martin
@MikeJ: There’s a big difference beween being proud of a win and bragging. But releasing the photo isn’t about either. For me it’s a basic issue of dignity. It’s unnecessary. Anyone who denies that he’s dead won’t be swayed by the photo. The birther nonsense should prove that well enough. So given that, what’s the point of releasing the photo other than for people to get their rocks off over it or to take joy that it’s pissing off Muslims?
MonkeyBoy
The whole question revolves around a moral issue. In the US the 8th amendment speaks against “cruel or unusual punishment” which is one reason we don’t torture the condemned and then display them in a public location so everybody can witness their humiliation and decay.
I believe the whole notion of torture for fun and corpse display arose from religious concerns – the torture and display was mainly to show how weak and impotent the condemned’s God or Gods were in being unable to prevent such actions.
The thing about moral rules is that they can break down in extreme situations involving survival – Jews can eat pork if the alternative is starving to death and if one holds that “killing is wrong” it can be justified to prevent being killed.
All of the advocates for torture and trophy display of the dead seem to think that “The War on Terror” is an extreme situation involving the survival of the USA and thus moral constraints should be relaxed. Since this isn’t a question of survival I guess they are just looking for an excuse for their ghoulish voyeurism.
themann1086
While I agree with the Admin’s decision to not release them officially, I’m sure they’re all walking around saying “It sure would be a shame if the pictures were to leak, though. *COUGH*”
We’ll see the pics, probably before June arrives.
freelancer
@Doug Harlan J:
“I’m a rich born man of the Wahabi!”
scav
@Southern Beale: Funny, I’d just finished this.
Funny how so many also went along with not even seeing photographs of the American dead arriving in flag-draped coffins in case it upset morale — not to mention getting rather agitated and tut-tuttering after seeing bodies of dead Americans hanging on bridges with “just happy” crowds.
‘Scuse me, I’m going to go off and pretend I’m from a different planet for a little bit. It’ll probably turn out to be mad as pants too but maybe mad as a different sort of pants, for a welcome change.
Martin
@Woodrow L. Goode, IV:
That’s been quite clearly proven to be a fake.
Larkspur
We’re shielded from the truth – as in “graphic photos of dead things” – all the time. We know that thousands upon thousands of Americans die in car crashes every year, and we know that TV news crews, not to mention official investigators, record the scenes all the time. All the gun deaths in this country – how many close-ups of the decedents do you see regularly? Hardly any.
I’m sure there are a lot of reasons, including the very important ones of not horrifying the survivors even further, and protecting young children from the images. Also it’s simply upsetting, intrusive, and not necessary to the recitation of events.
In my opinion it isn’t usually any of our goddamn business to examine the remains. When I worked for a law firm, it was my business to examine crash scene photos. I had to organize the evidence for the file. The dead bodies looked thoroughly dead. They were once walking and talking, and then they were dead and mangled. Dead people look really, really dead.
I’m tending toward General Stuck’s opinion at #23. If and when photos are released, I won’t be seeking them out. I know what dead people look like, and because I have no reason to doubt bin Laden’s death, I don’t need to see it.
RalfW
I almost immediately suspected an Obama (erm, Sully) rope-a-dope coming on. Like the birth certificate, Obama will wait till the wingers have again shown themselves to be foaming crazys, then he’ll quietly release the pics on a slow news night right after Butters McWhoopsie spouts drano out his mouth on TeeVee over the fake death of Osama.
Jay in Oregon
@Villago Delenda Est:
“Has anyone actually seen Obama and Osama in the same room together?”
John - A Motley Moose
I guess teh google is supposed to be used before asking a question. It wasn’t the photos of Saddam I remembered. It was the photos of his sons.
http://www.gpb.org/news/2011/05/03/is-it-legal-for-the-u-s-to-release-pictures-of-bin-ladens-body
Mandramas
Who cares? The point is it is ok to kill an enemy of the state with a elite team on a different nuclear-armed muslim country, capture and then execute it without trial, without photographs or videos, and then drop the body in the sea.
American Justice
/irony
The Dangerman
Thankfully, once again, Obama is the adult in the room; those that are bitching about no photo will be the same that will bitch that the photo is fake or dated back to when Dubya Osama whacked but Obama’s just trotting it out now to try to bury the fact that his birth certificate is also an obvious fake.
I might support a limited release of the photo for 9/11 victims families that want to see it for closure, but I’d also strip search the potential viewers to make sure no cell phones or cameras.
Martin
@themann1086: I disagree. One of the best measures of the competence of this whole endeavor is how disciplined it has been. There’s been no leaks, nobody stepping out of line, etc. I don’t think that’s going to change. I think Obama or someone similarly high up laid down the law on this one.
But now that we know that some members of Congress have the photo, I expect they’ll leak it before long, and I think the WH would see that as a failure.
Mandramas
@Martin: So, Dignity is to drop a executed body on the sea with no trial and no evidence.
/Irony
The mossad at least made a trial with Eichmann.
Of course, 9/11 victims didn’t have a judge, as neither had all the civilians killed in the Irak and Afganisthan invasions. We are far from any dignity in those issues.
danimal
I just hope when one of these right-wing senators claims that releasing the photos would end crazy conspiracy theories, there is a Dem there to remind everyone that the GOP is more than willing to entertain wild-ass crazy conspiracy theories with or without photographic evidence.
Also, quit pussy-footing around, Obama.
danimal
Ahhhhh, moderation hell for quoting Sarah Palin. My life sucks!
dollared
@Martin: Oh dear, when on Earth did we ever care about dignity? Do you think Patrick Henry was a dignified guy? I bet everyone in his church was perpetualy annoyed with that blowhard.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
I’m surprised nobody’s figure it out yet: The OBL death photos will be nailed into an anonymous looking wooden crate and wheeled off on a handcart into the most obscure and dusty corner of an ginormous warehouse, and left there to rot.
We have Top Men working on it right now.
TOP Men.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Mandramas:
We don’t try dead people. And funerals, like weddings, are for the observers, not the participants.
stuckinred
@Mandramas: You are goddamn right it is. Fuck Usama Bin Laden. If he wanted to surrender he had 9 years to do so. I would take a chance on one Seal being hurt for some bullshit notion of fairness.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@mistermix:
That’s fine with me, let whoever wants to see the pics work for their release.
Then it’s on their heads.
Judas Escargot
He was double-tapped on the left side of the head, with whatever weapon the SEALs carry (M4s? Does anyone know for certain?).
In any case, doubt there’s much “face” left to see.
stuckinred
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Rep. Duncan Hunter, member of the House Armed Services Committee, in an interview with CNN:
“I want to see them personally…”I did three tours. I’m not talking as a Member of the Armed Services Committee – as a Marine who did three tours because of 9/11. As Americans we deserve to see them.”
Sen. Lindsey Graham, Republican member of the Armed Services Committee
“I respectfully disagree with President Obama’s decision not to release the photos. It’s a mistake. The whole purpose of sending our soldiers into the compound, rather than an aerial bombardment, was to obtain indisputable proof of Bin Laden’s death. I know Bin Laden is dead. But the best way to protect and defend our interests overseas is to prove that fact to the rest of the world. I’m afraid the decision made today by President Obama will unnecessarily prolong this debate.”
Dennis SGMM
Considering how the conservatives all accepted Obama’s citizenship as soon as he produced his birth certificate it’s certain that producing a photo of OBL’s corpse, or even a Sam Peckinpah-style slow motion movie of bin Laden being shot dead, will convince them of the truth this time around. There is absolutely no point in catering to people who are invested in lies.
dollared
@The Dangerman: Yeah, because censorship is all part what we ask for when we ask the Serious People to lead our country. And when we grant them immunity for torture. And when we agree that they shouldn’t have to pay taxes.
Hellooooooo, it’s information! We are a democracy!
Mandramas
@Belaron: So, a good way to avoid the trial is to kill the suspect swiftly, right?
(Source: Wikipedia)
So, a unarmed suspect resisted the assault in an encounters that lasted only seconds. It looks like a surprise assassination mission to me. Maybe I was playing so much videogames.
dollared
@stuckinred: @Larkspur: But we’re not talking about your personal preference – we’re talking about a government decision to withhold information.
danimal
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): Maybe we should have announced Osama’s funeral all throughout the Middle East and invited all Al Qaeda operatives to attend. I’m sure hundreds would have attended or given their RSVPs.
The Dangerman
@Dennis SGMM:
The Seals are wearing night gear; I wonder if their helmet video has similar technology? If there is video of the confrontation, I would trot that out, freezing the frame as the Seal pulls the trigger. Sure, I guess that video lasts less than 5 seconds, but that should satisfy some of these folks clamoring for proof of death.
Jonathan
@Comrade Javamanphil:
Count me in on that ghoulish fringe! I’m curious, and would probably peak at the photograph if it were made available, I’d even say I do want to see it. But at the same time, I think it best that we not make a spectacle out of this.
General Stuck
Try to think of it as US AID of fish food in a really big aquarium.
Fuck Yeah!!
pablo
NO,no…really this is a picture of a dead Osama….really!
(and Obama’s secret plan, too!)
Dennis SGMM
@The Dangerman:
In any sane nation, the word of the president would have been enough. Had this occurred on Bush’s watch the Republicans would be voting to put his image on the dollar bill and collecting funds to have his sorry mug carved onto Mt. Rushmore – all without a bit of corroboration. As it stands, the prez is a blackity-black-black Muslim who faked the whole thing so that his co-religionist bin Laden can live a carefree life on the French Riviera.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Mandramas: You know, reading through your posts, I see someone desperate to throw the one sentence out that will convince everyone here that killing bin Laden was exactly the same as killing a jaywalker. It’ll never work because there is a difference between the two. Heck, even the Dalai Lama says there’s a difference. And from what I have read, Gandhi and MLK would have seen the difference as well, though I don’t need anyone else’s authority as cover.
Mike Kay (Team America)
that didn’t take long
photo leaked.
for those at work and can’t see, he has a lifeless expression, his mouth is agape, and his skin is discolored. And this is surprising, his beard was trimmed off (he really was hiding in plain sight).
(nsfw – not for the faint of hear)
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cwRzqMSe8FA/0.jpg
Ash Can
There is no good reason to release the photos for public consumption. None.
Not Really
If you really believe OBL is dead, why do you want to see a picture of his dead body? What’s the point?
ETA: Generic “you” here, as in the ones who want to see pictures.
Citizen_X
@Mike Kay (Team America): Oh, well played.
gex
So in essence, they do not trust our entire military because the CIC is generously pigmented.
@Mike Kay (Team America): And have been successful in outlawing marriages. They don’t really have a good sense of what is an outrage and what isn’t.
Joe Beese
@lamh34:
Of course you do.
Because it’s Obama doing it.
http://www.chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/1-latest-news/2124-what-if-bush-did-it-a-nation-celebrates-what-it-is-told.html
freelancer
@Mandramas:
I’ve had it with the moral purist trolls of the left showing up here and preening about how evil this country is for the eliminating its most identifiable foreign enemy. Wah, Empire! Wah, lawless assassination! Go screw yourself. This was a legal action, perhaps one of the only legal actions taken in the GWOT in the last 5 years or so. If you don’t like it, hang up your spurs, and I mean that in a very specific sense. By your very existence, you contribute and fund “The Empire”, purchasing products that encourage further globalization, paying taxes; even those who shop conscientiously and make efforts to minimizing their global footprint still proverbially walk all over the place. Put your money where your whinging is or kindly STFU. Move to Idaho and live in a shack or give all your belongings away and become an ascetic.
On Day 3, when you realize that it’s all kind of crap, this living as morally pure being above the rest of the world, you can join us back here in morally gray, nuanced reality where America is neither an absolute evil nor is it the most high nation in the eyes of whatever God you want, and is thusly infallible. My Lord in absentia, the faux piety here in the last 4 days in various threads has been nothing short of noxious.
dollared
@stuckinred: Graham kinda makes sense here – it’s not just the photo, it’s the DNA evidence, it’s the recording of the body ID by the wife, etc.
The presumption should be that the government releases information. Remember – we used to think that was important?
Mandramas
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): I don’t want to convince anyone. I’m just sharing my POV. There are human rights that should be respected even in those extreme cases, since if you justify execution without trial you are becoming a terrorist, since you are ruling by the rule of fear. America did it on Nuremberg trials, after all.
Triassic Sands
I don’t need to see a photo of bin Laden’s body. Donald Trump will tell me whether Osama is dead or not. After all, he’s an unimpeachable source…in the last 64 years he’s never been wrong…not even once.
General Stuck
@Joe Beese:
I doubt that, you lying sack of ratfucking shit.
MagicPanda
@Calouste: Heh.
Woodrow L. Goode, IV
@Martin: I hate to quote Dick Cheney, but it really is appropriate here:
“So?”
Having a fake photo there damages the U.S. with one interest group. Debunking the fake hurts U.S. interests with a different one.
Villago Delenda Est
@gex:
Hell, they didn’t trust the Navy because the Navy said nice things about John Kerry.
Joe Beese
@Dennis SGMM:
“Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction.”
“I did not have sex with that woman.”
“I am not a crook.”
Clown.
Paula
@Mandramas:
Heh, no, you clearly don’t.
gex
@John – A Motley Moose: Like we give a shit about international law anymore. They are so quaint and have a tendency not to treat America like the exception to the rule.
tim serbo
@eemom: i watched the Saddam snuff video from a shitty steerage-class airport hotel room in Dubai, on my way back from Xmas week in Yemen–and wasn’t that a joy. never felt more conspicuously American before or since. it’s probably why i didn’t leave my room until after dark, and then only to dine at the surprisingly decent mexican restaurant in a classier part of the hotel. strange place, Dubai. though not as strange as Yemen.
Lolis
@MikeJ:
I think being happy and bragging are too different things. I just think it is not presidential too brag. If you want to brag I don’t really care, but the president represents the US to the world. He has a higher standard of decorum on this issue than you or I do. IMHO.
Dennis SGMM
@Joe Beese:
I didn’t write “any president”, did I? Your comments strongly suggest that you have a paper asshole.
Mike Kay (Team America)
the deathers sound like the white collar birthers
the white collar birthers said Obama’s long form birth certificate was simply a matter of transparency and public’s right to know if the Obama was qualified — that no government (Hawaii) should be taken at face value.
gex
@Jay in Oregon: If that were the case, then they would be right to accuse him of timing it for political reasons.
Mike Kay (Team America)
How do we know Hitler is dead if there’s no photo of his corpse/remains?
Valdivia
All I have to say is this
Can we have that as a tshirt please?
Mandramas
@freelancer: Yeah, maybe I’m a troll. That’s explain everything. Feel free to pie me.
I’m sure that America is not the absolute evil neither the greater good. I just think that you can’t says that you are better that your enemies if both use the same methods. If you drop the pretense to be the good guy, I will remain silent because I know how the human nature is.
cleek
@freelancer:
1000x this.
whiny fucks just need another way to moan about how rotten America is.
Joe Beese
@Dennis SGMM:
You wrote “the word of the president”. When apparently you meant “the word of this president”.
“I will vote against telecom immunity.”
“I will release the prison abuse photos.”
“I will conduct health care negotations on C-SPAN.”
Clown.
aimai
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Yes, they won’t be satisfied until they have provoked Muslim rioting in the streets. Bin Laden is nothing but another, more graphic, insult like “draw Mohammed day.” I love Obama for making such a graceful and honorable decision. I just wish that the entire blood gorging Republican party and its death porn consumers were worthy of having such an evolved President.
aimai
gex
@Mandramas: Well if Wikipedia says it, it must be true. I mean the news is still fresh, we’re still dealing with “initial” reports. So obviously the place to go for demonstrably true information on the event is Wikipedia.
And Janis Joplin speed walked everywhere and was afraid of toilets. (30 Rock)
Comrade Scrutinizer
@Mike Kay (Team America): When he ordered the body of Hitler to be disposed of, and any graphic proof of Hilter’s death supressed or destroyed, Uncle Joe spawned quite a cottage industry of conspiracy theories about the possibility of Hitler surviving the war.
Which is kind of the point here.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@stuckinred:
If what Lindsay Graham says is true, that he knows that Osama is dead, then you would hope that the wingers would be happy that one of their own is saying that they “know that Bin Laden is dead” and leave it at that. Let Michelle Bachmann and the other winger pols see the photos and DNA tests. Maybe even let them talk to some of the people who were on the ground there, especially the ones who were present when Osama was shot and killed.
If they can’t take the word of our troops, along with the physical evidence, then fuck them as it would be clear that they don’t even trust our military.
@Jonathan: “I’m curious, and would probably peak at the photograph…”
In what way would you “peak”?
Forget it, I don’t want to know.
Mandramas
@gex: If the CIA says it, it must be true, then. Could you guide me to the right place to get all the trustable information?
Martin
@Mandramas: You want us to put the dead body on trial? And when do we put all trial evidence in the public sphere. Honestly, you sound like a birther here.
Obama wasn’t executed any more than the guy who tried to rob that Apple Store and got shot by the guard wasn’t executed.
And as I noted earlier today, you guys are well to the left of the Dalai Lama:
I for one am pretty comfortable being as much of a bloodthirsty, right-wing imperialist as the Dalai Lama.
gex
@freelancer: I could use a cigarette after that. Beautiful.
aimai
I’d like to point out that this whole deather conspiracy makes absolutely no sense. If Osama isn’t dead he has only to issue another video, or order more attacks, or even walk out into public view. Claiming he was dead when he wasn’t would be a hugely short sighted strategy.
Also, I’d like to add one more observation. People forget what a big deal it was that Colin Powell went before the UN and lied. Or when Bush undermined the honor of his office by lying repeatedly. During the 2004 election Kerry and a whole lot of other people alluded to this famous incident:
When the Republican party, through its mouthpieces on Fox, accuse Obama of having lied about Osama’s death they are creating a situation in which they are impeaching the honor and probity of a sitting President, Vice President, Secretary of State and the entire chain of command. They are telling the world that as far as the Republican party is concerned the word of the President of the US is not good enough for them. Truly they are the party of rule or ruin. They would rather destroy the office of the Presidency than allow it to be held by a Democrat.
aimai
gex
@Joe Beese: Welcome to words. “The” is a definite article, referring to a specific item. “A” is an indefinite article referring to a class of items.
You’re welcome.
@aimai: And the great thing about inflaming Muslims around the world is it increases however slightly the chances of another attack so they can rip into Obama on that.
General Stuck
OBL declared war on the US. Maybe he had good reason to, maybe not. A bullet (or two) in the head are not uncommon fates for those who enter that dragon, and act on it. And it is certainly not an unusual “method” in such a circumstance.
The US and Obama took the risk of sending in our blood to conduct an act of war, and it was that, when they could have just used a Hellfire missile.
It has long been reported that OBL either wore a suicide vest, or had some other means of self expiration if cornered by the US. I am not going to begrudge or second guess those Navy Seals if they pulled the trigger a little faster than normal in this situation, given that possibility.
The WH debunked claims that he was armed, when they didn’t really have to. Maybe he reached for something like a vest, and the Seals fired for that reason. It would have been more fitting imo, to have set the building on fire, and let the fucker jump out the second floor window, just for the sake of poetic justice/
dollared
Gang, it is not about the Republicans. It is not about the A-rabs. It is not about Our Boys in Uniform. It is not about dignity or respect for the dead.
There was a major event involving our government. It killed someone. It is now withholding the evidence. I humbly suggest that it might withhold the evidence for a period of time to allow feelings to be calmed and to study the evidence and make a well-thought out report with exhibits. Let’s give them, say, 90 days.
But after that, release the shit. We are a democracy.
I cannot believe that the Balloon Juice crowd has a problem with having a free press and an accountable government. Even if those things occasionally give Lindsay Graham a happy.
Paula
@Martin:
It’s not left/right, as OBL was an extremist and his professed views probably distort the entire spectrum here.
Also, you mean “Osama” where you put “Obama”.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@aimai:
That’s a false equivalence. Muslim strictures against showing the likeness of Mohammed are religious in nature, and the insult of “Draw Mohammed Day” goes to the heart of the faith. Showing death photos of bin Laden don’t come close, by many orders of magnitude. In fact, judging by the images one can see in the Middle Eastern media, graphic depictions of violent death seem to be taken pretty matter-of-factly. Our society seems to be the one that has to be shielded from images of the consequences of our actions.
Martin
@aimai: Well, it was the President of France, after all. Surprised he didn’t surrender to Kennedy on the spot, just in case.
/teabagger
Jon H
@aimai: ” Bin Laden is nothing but another, more graphic, insult like “draw Mohammed day.” ”
I suspect your putting Bin Laden and Mohammad on the same level would probably be more offensive to them than publishing a photo of Bin Laden.
I’m guessing there are lots of Muslims who would like to see the photo because they hated him, like the Somalians who held a rally to commemorate Bin Laden’s death.
gex
@Mandramas: Well, it isn’t only the CIA saying something, is it. My point is that if you only have Wikipedia to back up your point, it is not terribly convincing. But of course, what you are doing here is asking me to disprove your point rather than trying to make your point yourself. Do your own work.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Dennis SGMM:
Fix’t.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@Martin:
I should hope not!
cyntax
Looking at LGM, they seem to be arguing that the legality of this hinges in part on whether the SEAL team took fire, not whether bin Laden was armed. His resistance, even if unarmed, further establishes the legality of killing him. Also, the use of a commando team as opposed to an air-strike meets requirements for proportionality and demonstrates concern for minimizing civilian casualties. So portraying this operation as an egregious violation of human rights seems to be hyperbolic at best.
Where it seems the debate could begin, were one so inclined, is whether justice is best served by killing him or taking him alive and putting him on trial.
Lol
It’s called falsifiability. If OBL wasn’t killed, it’s pretty easy to prove otherwise. He need only pop up alive. Or someone can produce his *real* body. Lying about killing him carries so many risks because it’d be easy to prove them wrong if they were.
In contrast, with the WMDs, how do you prove something doesn’t exist? Far more reasonable to be skeptical. Lying carries very few risks so a lie I more likely in that situation.
As it is, no one in Al Quaeda or OBL’s family is insisting he’s still alive. In fact, they’re confirming his death at the hands of the US as well.
But killing OBL is good news for Obama so the Professional Ledt considers it to be a bad thing and has to seek out the worst angle.
aimai
@General Stuck:
I never agree with General Stuck but I do agree with him on this. Also I think that the line he quotes
s
deserves more scorn than he heaped on it. Its the the most pathetic kind of childish American exceptionalism. We aren’t better than our enemies. That’s an incredibly low bar, by the way, but in any event we are an imperial power that occasionally uses its military and economic power to protect or avenge its average citizens as it frequently does to protect its corporations and wealthy. That’s actually one of the better uses for our power–preventing lunatics from killing harmless officeworkers while they are going about their ordinary lives. Way better than invading Iraq in order to seize the oil.
In addition Americans aren’t better than revenge. We love revenge. And for damn sure Americans, except for the odd total pacifist, aren’t better than killing off a known enemy. Not only would refusing to kill off a national enemy be foolish, it would be immoral by normal standards. Obama accepted a duty to protect the constitution and as many of the citizens of the US as he can. In executing Osama he executed his duty. That he also aspires to creating a space in which Americans are less bloodthirsty and careless of non-citizen feelings is admirable. But its aspirational, not a reflection of who Americans really are.
aimai
Martin
@dollared: Right we’re a democracy, not a jury. If we brought some guy up on federal kiddie porn charges, by your argument the photos of the kids should be published for all to see. After all, isn’t that what a free press an accountable government would do?
Martin
@Comrade Scrutinizer: Fuuuuuuuuuck! Man, I try so hard and yet I still fail.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Mandramas:
We have a number of rules that justify execution without a trial, from self defense to public protection to war. In a lot of cases there has to be a show of restraint. If a man is lying on the ground surrendering, there is no justification in shooting him, no matter what he has done. bin Laden did not do that, whether or not he had a gun.
I’m also afraid that in your rush to paint everyone that thinks the world is a better place now a terrorist, you have missed the point of terrorism. You have equated a government as a terrorist organization: We have cops with the ability to kill specifically as a deterrent through fear. A terrorist attempts to make people do things entirely not in their self interest – see taking off shoes and groping at an airport – out of fear.
aimai
@Jon H:
You miss my point entirely. I am not comparing Osama to Mohammed. I am comparing the right wing’s propensity to try to dream up insulting things to do to Muslims in general, Muslim leaders, or Muslim ideals as a provocation. Palin and others explicitly wish to see the photos shown as previously they wished to see the body degraded (buried in a pigskin etc…) not because they think that muslims equate Osama to MOhammed but because they ascribe to the same theories of Muslim manhood that Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld did when they read their one book on “Arab” culture and decided that sexual humiliation and degradation of the quran were good ways to break Islamic prisoners.
Also, I think the notion that some hypothetical, made up desire of some imaginary muslims to see the body should be respected is incredibly insulting to Osama’s real world muslim opposition. Do you have any proof that there is a serious groundswell of death image porn seekers within the world wide muslim community?
aimai
Dennis SGMM
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Your version is better. Joe seems to be alienated from both grammar and context.
Martin
@cyntax:
But it doesn’t need to begin there. We have objective proof that the US avoided all of the avenues at their disposal that would have led to OBLs death in favor of one that allowed for his capture. If the resulting path was the easiest, we might need to look farther, but it wasn’t, it was the hardest.
If executing OBL was our goal, we’d have bombed the house and sent the SEALs in to ID the body – either by Tomahawk or Predator, and even if we wanted the opportunity to collect intel, we could have done it by AC-130 that would have minimized (relatively speaking) property damage. We even avoided that path.
Had we bombed a house in Pakistan and OBL wasn’t there, there’d be little political fallout from it. If we lost a SEAL team, whether OBL was there or not, the political fallout would be huge.
The only reason to take the risk that we took was to leave the option open for capture, even if that option didn’t present itself.
freelancer
@aimai:
Not to mention we sent a tactical team in to perform a surgical strike on a High Value Target with National Security implications, and we sent the team in and not Hellfires in order to mitigate collateral damage. This is decidedly not the behavior of our enemy. So his point is moot there, too.
PS
@Martin: The Dalai Lama’s comments were rather Delphic, you know. It’s not at all clear that he condones the killing.
I am troubled by assassination, even in this case, which is about as good as you can get. That’s not faux piety, it’s a principled commitment to the rule of law. We can disagree, but let’s be civil about it.
I am not inclined to criticize Obama for doing what he said he’d do — I did criticize him for adopting that position in the election campaign, but I give him credit for consistency, and for acting in a carefully considered manner.
Martin
@PS:
I don’t expect that he would condone it, but he doesn’t seem to be condemning it either. I’m just amazed that these assholes here are trying to out-pacify the Dalai Fucking Lama.
cyntax
@Martin:
One other possibility is that we wanted to collect proof of his death.
Whatever the case, I think that sending the SEALs was the right thing to do, and though I’m usually in favor of putting people on trial, I’m not losing any sleep over the fact that bin Laden’s in a watery grave. It’s not as a poetic an end as Stuck envisioned, but the anonymity seems fitting.
dollared
@Martin: Stupid analogy. We have a long history of protection of the privacy rights of minor victims of sex offenses. Are you suggesting that we provide the same privacy rights to mass murderers?
aimai
Jon H’s argument that the muslim world might need to see the Obama death pictures led me to this interesting quote from Steve Clemons:
One of the things I really admire about Obama is his ability to patiently think through the various options. Since they were careful to give Osama Muslim burial rights I would have thought they might well have taken a photographic record of the washing of the body and its handling. In a better world I’d think the administration would be willing, and even eager, to demonstrate respect for Islam and the Muslim world by releasing those photos rather than mere death photos.
But the President isn’t operating in that world. Every gesture of civility and honor towards the Islamic world is taken as a provocation by his domestic political enemies. The right wing doesn’t want the pictures to “prove” Osama is dead. They want the pictures as another form of trophy dance on the Muslim world. Our foreign policy and the future of our relations with a billion people are being held hostage to the most grotesquely childish and spiteful people who have ever sought political power. Obama literally can’t win. He can only do what is least harmful. If that doesn’t satisfy either side–the Muslim world or the Republicans well, that’s the situation he’s been forced into.
aimai
Nellcote
@dollared:
I say release the historical documents in 30 years.
john b
@Martin:
there’s also the intelligence that could be gathered from not blowing the place up — intelligence that is apparently already being looked at.
General Stuck
@Lol:
Not ALL of the professional left. Seems Barack has finally measured up in the “man up” department. It’s swoon city in the ivory towers for our fav studseeker.
Oh My! “the all important second helicopter” fans self
Maybe not enough vertical lift the first time?
“muscular purpose” Goddam right Modo. Now cool yer fanny in a bucket of ice for awhile, and quit writing the stupid “wimpy” Obama drek.
Suffern ACE
Favor releasing the photo. Wouldn’t make an effort to see it, though. There’s lots of gruesome images of the world that I won’t see. The idea that this one will spark out of control rage-we’ll find out. Eventually its going to come out anyway.
MikeJ
I find it amusing that I’m constantly told that it is wrong for me to state pseudonymously on a blog that a guy who confessed to a crime is guilty before he’s had a trial. Then some of the same people throw around words like “execution”.
dollared
@Nellcote: Because you would have been willing to wait 30 years to see Dick Cheney’s evidence of WMDs in Iraq?
Or what is your standard for the government withholding information? Does it vary by political party? How long should Japan withhold information on pollution around Fukushima?
Nellcote
I don’t want to see the photo(s). Will the msm protect me from having to view them?
Batocchio
“Franzia Pundit” is full of win.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@Martin: There’s a difference. Publishing the photos of the kids in a kiddie porn case would demonstrably cause additional harm to children who are supposed to be innocent victims. That would be a mitigating factor against publication of those photos.
In the case of the photos of bin Laden, the only thing being harmed is the sensibilities of potential viewers and people who don’t think that publication of such photos are appropriate. The two situations aren’t the same.
catclub
@Nellcote: “I say release the historical documents in 30 years.’
Anyone remember the historical documents in Galaxy Quest?
Comrade Scrutinizer
@Nellcote: You need a mommy or a daddy?
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Dennis SGMM:
That’s the way ratfuckers work.
MikeJ
@Comrade Scrutinizer:
Ever read the Geneva conventions?
dollared
@MikeJ: Ooohh. Quaint.
Omnes Omnibus
I certainly have no need to see the photos. I would find it ghoulish and I believe that the easy falsifiability of the claim is enough to establish that it is true. I do not thing the Obama Admin would be dumb enough to make the claim if it weren’t true; the downside is just too high. If a false Osama pops up at some point, I would support release of proof in order to debunk him.
Linnaeus
I’m fine with the decision not to release the photos; if they’re deemed necessary to as some sort of proof, then perhaps they can be released to responsible parties who can be trusted to affirm what they see. But for general publication, releasing the photos would strike me as being in poor taste.
General Stuck
@Omnes Omnibus:
There is always the possibility that some civil libertarian zealot somewhere, (Pause)(cough) would start speculating that maybe Obama has OBL in the WH basement torturing him with Bee Gees tunes in his undies. So as to drop the dime on Al Zhawhiri and for later campaign ads. You know, from being worse than Bush and all.
dollared
@Omnes Omnibus: And the legal justification for resisting a FOIA request would be?
Gosh, remember when we expected our government to provide information upon request?
Quaint – like the Geneva Convention. Or “conflict of interest.”
chopper
i would love to see obama say he’s releasing video and it’s a total rickroll.
Omnes Omnibus
@dollared: Please point out where I suggested resisting a FOIA request.
danimal
@chopper: I was expecting that this: @Mike Kay (Team America): was a rickroll, but it wasn’t. Still pretty funny, though.
El Cid
@MikeJ: It’s always important to remember the difference between the guidelines for speech in a court of law versus the public sphere.
It’s not somehow inferior or wrong to use arguments and phrasing which would not be allowed in courts of law or under certain legal conditions.
It’s only required that any statements intended to be taken seriously — like, in an important, established format like an anonymous comment section in a blog named “Balloon Juice” — depend on supported facts and/or logical arguments.
You can say “he did it” before a judge or jury ever thinks about the question. Otherwise few people would ever have been able to say anything about the horrid crimes of various tyrants before they ever faced court.
Sixers
What % of people here whose moral high horse prevents them from even contemplating why the barbarians they live amongst would want to see the picture of a dead Osama will eventually take a look when its released? 98 or 99%?
I don’t need to see it but I’ll look when its released. Fuck him. Also I don’t need to hear the bullshit about him really not being dead for the next decade. We fucking killed the guy. Now we’re this moral beacon protecting the worlds delicate sensibilities?
Omnes Omnibus
@dollared:
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yeah, that’s what I thought.
Omnes Omnibus
@Sixers: I have no intention of seeking them out. I didn’t see any need to see the Daniel Pearl video or the Saddam execution. If they are on the front page of a newspaper or a webpage I will probably see them, but I have desire to look for them. FWIW I have never watched any of the Faces of Death videos either. It is not a moral high horse, I just don’t get my jollies that way. Any other questions?
Caz
Did I miss something? I don’t see any party affiliated with the 53%. What party are you referring to as the party of necrophilia?
The only ones that should really be opposed to releasing the photos are muslims who supported bin Laden, so if their non-release is aimed at preventing retaliatory terrorism, then I guess I’m ok with it. Otherwise, I don’t see any reason why they shouldn’t release the photos. After all, that is the single best piece of evidence showing that we did, in fact, kill him.
It’s certainly not any more graphic, obscene or offensive than half the crap that’s on prime time TV. Most the CSI-type shows display a level of violence, morbidity, and gore that are as bad or worse than a photo of dead Osama with a bullet hole in his head.
We all saw the video of Saddam being hanged, so why not show us a photo of dead Osama??
dollared
@Omnes Omnibus: When you said that the photo should not be released. So you support the decision to not release the photos/videos, but you would not object if Fox asks for it tomorrow and the White House releases it the same day? Then why did you waste the time thinking/writing about it?
Just Some Fuckhead
@Sixers: I can honestly say I don’t care to look at dead people, friends or foes. I don’t care for open casket funerals but the peaceful serenity bestowed by undertaker magic is a far far different thing than the fresh rigidity of painful death.
I’m forced to think I must be a much much better person than the steaming piles of humanity.
JCT
@aimai: Well put. I think I read somewhere that they did take pictures of the body being prepared for burial.
Omnes Omnibus
@dollared:
Here is my whole comment, typo and all. Please show where in this statement I said the photo should not be released. I stand by my opinion that it would be ghoulish to release them. If a valid FOIA request is filed, I would not have any objection with the Obama Administration complying with such a request. Does this clear things up for you or should I explain further?
dollared
No, I get it. You wanted to hear the sound of your voice, so you said that you sort of agreed with the president’s decision but you could change your mind. And when I pointed out that the president’s decision would be tested by a FOIA request, you made sure I understood that your post had no meaning whatsoever.
Omnes Omnibus
@dollared: Christ, what an asshole.
Paula
@aimai:
Well, none of this is ideal or even acceptable morally speaking, but yes, quite normal.
[Even from supposedly “enlightened” people … One of the more abhorrent things about reading how the whole Libya/NATO business went down was how easily Britain and France got back into their colonial power roles — with help from the US of course. After their long histories and with America’s most recent foibles you would think people would learn. But they don’t.]
I object to the line of argument primarily because it seems to come from people who profess to be highly skilled in political and moral insight. And I suspect that they don’t really care about amending this lens of “exceptionalism” because their rhetorical aim is mostly a naive attempt to separate themselves from our collective moral repugnance, and not to actually change anything.
Paula
@Paula:
Should read:
Well, very little of this is ideal or even acceptable, in terms of “pure” judeo-xtian/Western morality, but yes, quite normal.
WereBear
@catclub: Never give up! Never surrender!
Yes.
Personally, I think it’s sick that releasing the photos should even come up for debate. They mean nothing in the age of Photoshop, and would only fuel endless conspiracy theories.
If Osama isn’t dead, let him make some videos with a recent newspaper under his chin; and show us all up. And I really really wish some of these whiners would have started… several years ago.
When we really were being lied to, by a rich white born-again boy.
lol
@General Stuck:
Now now, Modo’s a bonifide Villager, not one of the Villager Wannabes on the Professional Left. It’s a pretty insulting comparison…. though I’m not sure who it’s insulting to.
Larkspur
Releasing the photos does nothing to confirm beyond anyone’s doubt that the dead guy is bin Laden. Confirming the death is the whole point of releasing the photo, yes? Well, it won’t accomplish that. It just won’t. So why is this an issue of transparency? There are a lot of photos that don’t get released. In this instance, we are being informed that there is photographic evidence, as well as forensic evidence, and the testimony of bin Laden’s surviving family members that Osama bin Laden is dead. We aren’t being fooled about the existence of the evidence, unless you think that the whole thing is a lie, in which case the photo won’t fucking convince you.
Judas Escargot
And, even then, we should wait at least three days to make sure he doesn’t rise again. Just to be certain.
(Too soon?)
Lawnguylander
@dollared:
Hellooooooo, what does democracy have to do with it? That we vote means every piece of information the government has must be released to the public? When have things ever been that way. If the FOIA request is granted then the administration will have to release it because that’s the law. Not because of our system of government.
furioso ateo
@Lawnguylander
No, but shit, wouldn’t that be great?
Tehanu
@aimai:
aimai, you are so right. And I am so sick and tired of all their macho posturing.
roshan
Releasing the photos is a bad idea after what that Florida “pastor” did with the Koran burning madness, and the wingnut uproar about the muslim center in NY. The result was a few dead UN workers in Afghanistan.
Elie
@themann1086:
No doubt about it, IMHO.
But its still better that way than for our formal government to release them and seemingly “brag” on it. Yep, best solution altogether.
Elie
@Just Some Fuckhead:
I agree. What is the point? Death presented in this fashion does nothing for our country and its interests.
I would prefer that we not release the photo — that the terrible image of a man shot between the eyes, covered in blood — that is not what we want to project from this act, is it? We want him taken out of action, which he was and not enobled in ANY WAY through implied suffering. We took him out. He disappeared. Period. Without even the horrible importance of being shown as bloodied or mortified. He is just not that important. Why make him important? Why give him the world press and the buzz?
OBL caused us great suffering and demeaned Islam in doing so. Justice has been done. Let his relatives grieve him – their right and obligation. I don’t want to see him and don’t want his mortification as any kind of even small martyrdom for him. Think of those people jumping from the World Trade Center and hitting the ground. They were anonymous. His final moments should not be in any way more important than theirs. Period
Just Some Fuckhead
@Elie: Now, on the other hand, people still keep seeing Elvis everywhere after authorities failed to release a gruesome death photo. Do we really want to be talking about seeing Osama bin Laden driving a taxi or working at Burger King the rest of our lives?
*makes weighing gesture with both hands*
rea
it’s a violation of the Geneva Conventions to display the dead bodies of your enemies as trophies. Pictures count, as a matter of common sense. And, I’m tired of the old argument that terrorists aren’t entitled to the protection of the Geneva Conventions–the important point is what barbarous treatment of our enemies does to us.
Paul in KY
@Comrade Scrutinizer: I’ve seen Soviet pictures of his corpse on a medical examing table. Looked pretty real. Corpse was all burned, etc.
Larkspur
Okay, check it out. This is from a news article in the Wall Street Journal (May 4, 2011 – “Conspiracy Theories on ‘Death’ Start to Spin”, by Yaroslav Trofimov and Tom Wright):
First of all, it sounds like this guy would be a great fit at Powerline or Town Hall or some place, which is kind of charming in a hands-across-the-ocean Bizarro World way. Second, there is no way to connect with people of any nationality who are so ready to believe utter and complete bullshit, or who are willing to act like they believe it (even though they don’t really) because they think the posturing is important and laudable.
Those of you who want the photos released, this is not directed at you. You have credible, justifiable reasons for wanting the disclosure. It’s just that nothing is going to convince some people, ever.
Many many years ago I was in Moscow and stood in line to see Lenin’s corpse in his tomb in Red Square. We were allowed in two by two, and had to keep walking, into the building and right out again, obviously no pix, no talking, no gaping. I saw a waxy dead guy who looked like Lenin, but am I able to swear to you, under oath, that it was the actual preserved corpse of the actual once-living Lenin? Nope. (I think I was jet-lagged, because I swear to God I thought I saw the corpse blink, and I stopped in my tracks. Before I knew it, soldiers clamped down on my elbows and hustled me out. Nothing more, just back out into Red Square.)
johnny walker
Holy hell, that thing she’s using for the poll publishes the first 3 Octets of your IP address if you leave a comment. On the other hand, instantly narrowing yourself down from 1 in 4.2 million to 1 in 255 while giving everyone on the planet a rough idea of where you live sounds like a small price to pay for getting your awesomely unique “f u obummer post teh pics” comment posted.
That is bat-shit insane.