Can’t say I didn’t feel the schadenfreude reading this:
Florida’s governor, Rick Scott..took a verbal whacking from New York and New Jersey lawmakers who had gathered to announce the distribution of $2.2 billion in federal transportation money that was meant for Florida until Mr. Scott, a Republican, snubbed the Obama administration and its proposal to build a fast train line between Orlando and Tampa.
…
“If you want to award hundreds of millions of dollars for high-speed rail,” said New York’s senior senator, Charles E. Schumer, “you need not ask New York twice.”
Another Democratic senator, Frank R. Lautenberg of New Jersey, joined Mr. Schumer in taking swipes at Mr. Scott. “A governor that rejects transportation money is penny-wise and pound-foolish,” Mr. Lautenberg said.
Mr. Lautenberg also aimed a zinger at Chris Christie, the New Jersey governor, who canceled a project to build a rail tunnel under the Hudson River that would have received $3 billion in federal funds. “We learned something in New Jersey,” he said. “We learned if you reject federal money, you gain nothing and you pay a high price for it.”
That’s the smell of stupid, folks.
The killer lines in the piece, though, were these. It seems that the money will allow Amtrak trains…
…to go as fast as 160 miles per hour along a stretch of tracks in central New Jersey.
If that happens, it would be a step toward President Obama’s goal of establishing high-speed rail around the country.
Not bad, eh? Except for this:
True high-speed rail systems that have been built from scratch in other countries, like China, have top speeds as high as 220 miles per hour.
American exceptionalism in action: we can build a rail system to match that of Japan in the 1960s.
__
Image: Albrecht Dürer, Ship of Fools, 1494
AxelFoley
You know when an anti-Obama troll like slinkerwink calls you out, you’ve really jumped the shark:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/05/09/974445/-Have-You-No-Shame,-Greenwald
Greenwald has completely lost it. Little bitch.
Ash Can
But by turning down federal money, Rick Scott can build Dagny Taggart’s own railroad in his state! …I.e., an imaginary one.
pragmatism
i live in a state that will benefit from governor lex luthor’s stupidity. this pleases me. the local wingnutty commentariat in the rag of a newspaper are not pleased, however. opinions range from: “gov. scott wisely saw that no one would ride trains” to “if high speed rail was such a good idea, the private sector would have already done it”. i’m not sure if i should just facepalm or jab a pen in my throat.
jeff
@AxelFoley:
How about cutting the anti-gay shit.
Martin
Pff. Pointless to build high speed rail in New Jersey. The trains will never be allowed to turn left and it’s inevitable that one will crash into the Atlantic as a result.
And the teaparty has the GOP beat on stupid tricks: We will pay you one trillion taxpayer dollars to get rid of the fags.
Wishin’ I was gay right about now. I sure as fuck aren’t worth that much money to anyone.
Studly Pantload, now with enhanced schmuckosity
I love the smell of schadenfreude in the afternoon.
This, not so much:
In a Monday speech before top Wall Street executives at the Economic Club of New York, House Speaker John Boehner will say Congress should not increase the national debt limit at all unless it simultaneously cuts federal spending by a dollar figure that’s larger than the amount of new borrowing authority it gives the government.
AxelFoley
@jeff:
What anti-gay shit?
CaelanAegana
Um,
I feel like I should point out that the main reason a train in New Jersey couldn’t reach 220 mph is primarily one of the distance between stops. The trains that go really fast in China travel hundreds or thousands of miles sometimes between stops, and it’s not worth the energy expenditure and extra braking needed to accelerate to 220 if you’ll only be doing it for 2 minutes.
Now, if we want to talk about where 220+ mph trains might be useful, let’s take a jog to that left side of the map known as the Pacific Coast…
MikeJ
@Martin: They had a guy there dressed as George Washington, pity they didn’t have a von Steuben.
slag
@AxelFoley: That’s odd. I didn’t see anything in this post about Osama, Obama, or Greenwald. (ETA: OK, Technically Obama was mentioned once here, but that hardly counts as a major point in the discussion.)
Studly Pantload, now with enhanced schmuckosity
@AxelFoley:
Jeff’s just being a drama queen.
AxelFoley
@slag:
You see it now.
Or do all threads here always stay on topic?
Don’t like my post, ignore it.
Stefan
Now, if we want to talk about where 220+ mph trains might be useful, let’s take a jog to that left side of the map known as the Pacific Coast…
How I yearn for a true Vancouver-Seattle-Portlandia-San Francisco-Los Angeles-San Diego high speed rail link….
And then if you could run a track from LA to Vegas to Phoenix, even better….
pragmatism
@AxelFoley: maybe he’s mad that in beverly hills cop your character pretended to be gay to further his investigation and then laughed about it. or there is some rule that you can’t call a gay man a bitch, even when he is acting like a bitch. so many rules.
Loneoak
Even Michigan’s semi-fascist governor is talking about a high speed link with CANADA. The teabillies really fucked up in FL, NJ, WI, and OH.
Warren Terra
Good thing, too – you’re either against tunnels, or you’re against terrorists. You have to make a choice.
Ash Can
@AxelFoley: I really have to start questioning Greenwald’s intelligence after that. I know he’s excitable, but that’s just moronic.
CaelanAegana
@Stefan:
I live in the inland portion (read: Heaven for white supremacists) and I have fantasies about moving back to the coast.
Give me a train that goes from my (not insubstantial) current population center to Seattle. It doesn’t even need to go 220, or even half that. The current option takes 7-8 hours to go 250 miles.
I weep.
slag
@AxelFoley: Don’t like my comment about your comment, ignore it. We could play this game all day.
Back on topic, I’m with @CaelanAegana:
Yes. Yes. Let’s take that jog.
BR
My next trip to the East Coast (from California) is going to be on Amtrak. I’ve finally decided I need to walk the walk.
MikeJ
@Stefan: 220mph would be awesome, but I’d be happy with dedicated passenger rails. Not yielding to cargo trains would at least prevent the timetable from being a joke.
Josie
I would love to see some trains operating in Texas, given the great distances between population centers. As I get older, I am not excited about either driving or dealing with airport security. With our secessionist state government, however, the possibilities are not good.
Joe Beese
@AxelFoley:
Then slinkerwink herself got “called out”.
Then that person got called out…
Very exciting.
Sly
The problem is one of patchwork refurbishing. Amtrak’s Acela train in the NE corridor is currently capable of reaching high speeds, but there are stretches of track that won’t be able to handle the stress. Otherwise the three hour(ish) ride from NY to DC would be about half that time. So we need states to do a lot of the heavy lifting, which entails a different set of problems than building an entirely new line.
In the end, though, I’ll happily take the money. Sorry Florida, but you were the ones who elected that asshole.
HyperIon
TL wrote:
It may go fast for a few miles in NJ but it will not average anywhere near 160 mph. So I think mentioning true high speed rail (where the train goes VERY FAST most of the time) in this context is a little over the top.
AxelFoley
@slag:
I’m game, chump.
slag
@MikeJ: That, and more connectivity in-city, of course. Trains connecting to trains connecting to trains, making public transit a more viable option for people without an extra six hours to spare–not to mention for those who are less physically mobile.
Martin
@MikeJ: Yeah, and that’s the rub in the whole CA high speed rail plans. Dedicated passenger lines up through the central valley isn’t so awful since the right-of-way is cheap and there’s a limited number of overpasses to expand. Once you get anywhere near a city, that all goes to shit. Either you pay through the nose to add the 2-4 extra tracks, or you get stuck behind every metrolink/surfliner/UP hauler that wants to go anywhere and the benefits of high-speed rapidly go out the window.
Studly Pantload, now with enhanced schmuckosity
@Joe Beese:
The melees over at TGOS can make the comments sections here look like ladies’ church teas. Used to post heavily over there (as Hell Upside Down), but haven’t missed it in the years since.
Makewi
Scott turns down the free rock and the pushers and their amen chorus titter scornfully. That drug was free yo, what a fool.
mr. whipple
@AxelFoley:
Wow, when tinkywink calls you out, you’ve jumped the shark, the grand canyon, and the fountains at a Vegas casino.
Ash Can
@Joe Beese: Good grief.
The GOS used to be interesting, informative, and entertaining. It’s sad to see what it’s become.
slag
@Makewi: Hahaha! Yes, high speed trains are the narcotics of the new millenium. Or would be, if only Atlas hadn’t Shrugged so sadly.
Just Some Fuckhead
@slag: That was an Obot Pre-Strike. Best to recognize the tactic and adjust accordingly.
Martin
@Sly: Well, I don’t know how many cities in CA are making this kind of effort, but at least some of the places in CA that are vying to be part of this effort are putting local dollars on the line to offset state and federal costs. My city has had a number of street level crossings that are now rapidly being replaced with road underpasses. My city has requested a high speed leg be built from the terminus in the neighboring city, hoping to be the destination for all of the regional traffic that aren’t on the route. To improve their proposal, the city is basically doing most of the work that the state would need to pay to do. It’d need to be done eventually as the city grew, so no dollars are being wasted in the long term, but if the city is successful, it’d be quite a local coup for businesses and the city tax revenues.
I would hope other cities and states are working to sweeten the federal deal in similar ways.
Studly Pantload, now with enhanced schmuckosity
@Makewi:
Efficient public transportation = crack. Got it.
Oh, gee, look at the time. Guess you’re having to get back into your horse and buggy and ride back into the 19th century, now. Sorry you can’t stay.
Martin
@Makewi: Yes, it’s been all downhill since Florida embraced the evils of the internal combustion engine, hasn’t it?
WereBear
Reason #9283712430 why I don’t hang out at Daily Kos any more; I ignited a flame war a few years ago giving some asked for cat advice: it didn’t take long for people to pop up and make fun of Anna Sewell and other crap like that.
Just baiting people; fighting for the sake of feeling superior.
jeff
@pragmatism:
Greenwald today is so fucking crazy that it seems especially lazy to have to dismiss him as a bitch. There’s no law against saying a gay man is acting like a bitch or a drama queen, and it can even be funny amongst friends whose intentions are well understood, in my opinion. I have had a lot of real life nastiness to deal with today, and thought I saw more here. Sorry about that. Cheers.
Makewi
@slag:
Haha, the only area of the country in which rail is almost not a giant money suck is the northeast. Haha, not only will the 2 billion not be enough to complete the lines – that shit keeps costing money even after it’s built.
Guess you really missed the point on that one, Haha. Way to throw in those partisan buzzwords though comrade.
Makewi
Nevermind, you all called it efficient and modern – so it must be.
Stupid Florida.
PeakVT
Reposting from earlier: CAHSRblog for news on the the California HSR project.
Also, too, a relevant
blogmapwhore.HyperIon
@WereBear:
Good thing that never happens here.
slag
@Makewi: So exactly how much money are all those highways taking in again?
Paula
Thanks for the money, chumps!
pragmatism
@jeff: i see your point about the artist formerly known as glenzilla. i dislike false equivalencies and reserve the right to call any such equivalencier a bitch. hope things turn around for you jeff.
MikeJ
@Sly:
When Eurostar opened the trains that were TGVs in France weren’t allowed to go over 50-60 in England because all the tracks had been Thatchered. They eventually got it fixed (cut almost 45 minutes off London-Paris), but it wasn’t overnight.
Makewi
@slag:
Oh, is it time to change the subject now? I thought this was about light rail and mocking those who don’t take the free rock that the is being offered.
I understand why you want to expand the conversation though – weaving and dodging in hopes of confusing the subject enough so that you can tell yourself you fought the good fight.
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
@CaelanAegana: You beat me to it. Same reason I think maglev is a foolish idea. It doesn’t take very many stops to negate the time savings from high speed, at the cost of an exponential increase in complexity, cost, and energy use.
Roger Moore
@pragmatism:
Attaching irrelevant personal insults to your comments doesn’t help your argument. If Greenwald is wrong- and I think he is, though I haven’t seen any actual links to the offending tweet in any of the brouhaha- explain how and why. Calling him a bitch just makes you look like an asshole, or worse makes it look as if you think your argument is weak an needs to be bolstered by insults to make up for its lack of intellectual heft.
Martin
@slag: And airports. John Wayne is practically dedicated to flights to SF, Sacramento, and LV. I know at one time there were almost 500 flights per day in and out of Orange County just to SD/SF/Oakland/San Jose/Vegas/Phoenix, and assorted CA central valley cities.
Scott
@Josie: I’m with you. I’ve got to take a long trip next month from Denton, TX, through Lubbock, and on to Albuquerque. Not looking forward to driving all that way, and I thought I’d see if there was an Amtrak route. Turns out I’d have to start in Ft. Worth, then we’d go up to Missouri, then across to New Mexico. There wasn’t even a stop in Lubbock.
I’d love to travel by train. I’ve loved trains since I was a kid, but it’s too damn inconvenient here. :(
slag
@Makewi: And the fact that you don’t even understand why this is the very same conversation is what makes arguing with you not worth the time or effort. So sad.
Makewi may have a point: It might actually be worth putting more of this money into our educational system. But then again, this is America. We can do both. High speed rail and education. But it is going to take money, time, and a lot of effort.
Martin
@Makewi:
It’s not changing the subject. Why bitch about federal dollars for rail while ignoring federal dollars for highways, or does the $60B in federal spending on roads each year no longer count? Maybe Florida shouldn’t have bought the I-275 crack either.
pragmatism
@Roger Moore: one man’s irrelevant comment is another man’s perfect descriptor. plus, also, too and irregardless i’m an asshole anyways.
Sly
@MikeJ:
Yeah, the problems in the NE Corridor are logistical, whereas the problems in, say, California, appear to me to be more to do with finance (which isn’t to say that finance isn’t a problem here, its just easier to remedy when you have more Representatives and Senators involved).
Upside for CA is that I imagine that there will be less bureaucratic impediments once the finance problem is solved. Getting the governments of nine states on the same page hasn’t been easy.
Studly Pantload, now with enhanced schmuckosity
The funny thing is, if AxelFoley had called Greenwald, say, an “idiot stick,” no one would have been moved to take the time from their day to tell him he was being lazy in his criticism.
I have no problem copping to being a little bitch or drama queen when I know that this is what I’m being. Just ask Mrs. Pantload.
And, yeah, that kind of scolding is exactly the type of thing I don’t miss about DK.
Calouste
@Studly Pantload, now with enhanced schmuckosity:
Someone (Pelosi?) should reply to that with a proposal that cuts thall the dollars necessary from the DoD and oil nad agricultural subsidies. This is what you were asking for, Mr. Orange?
slag
@Martin: True. Airports. We must be making some serious bank on those suckers. Good thing too, otherwise, we might have to spend some money on them.
Catsy
@Makewi:
Wait. Federal funding for public transportation and rail infrastructure is equivalent to crack cocaine? Even metaphorically?
If you ever muster the self-awareness necessary to wonder why you aren’t taken seriously in policy discussions, I suggest you return to asinine comments like this. You’ve not only started with an unhinged premise, you’re supporting it with an argument that could charitably be described as “fanciful”, and uncharitably described as a steaming three-coiler stinking up the room.
Sly
And I’d also like for people to cut the “lol he’s a fag!” shit out. It serves no purpose to advance an argument and hasn’t pleased the Snark Gods in years.
Mike Kay ( Geronimo!!)
@AxelFoley: I refuse to click on DKos, can you summarize the post.
trollhattan
@Makewi:
[no idea why I’m bothering, but anyway] No, it’s about federal transportation subsidies, which are part of every way Americans get from point A to point B. Thanks for playing, here’s the home version of our game for the runners up.
Sly
@Roger Moore:
Is BJ’s motto “Come for the intellectual heft, stay for the pics of obese cats and hyperactive dogs” or is it the other way around?
Paula
@AxelFoley:
Johnson/Feingold 2012! #winning
jeff
I think 160mph in the northeast corridor is fantastic. I don’t know how this is going to work (unless the money is for another parallel line), but it would truly revolutionize Boston-NYC-Phily-DC travel. (I know it wouldn’t be 160mph the whole time, but wow, I’m salivating at the prospect.)
I’m from Florida, and I truly think they choose wrongly on purpose.
Ash Can
@Makewi: Are you having trouble wrapping your brain around the concept that developed nations invest in services and infrastructure for their populaces? That this is what makes them, you know, developed?
Many of us here believe that right-wingers, libertarians, and anti-government types get clearly and cleanly separated from reality by their ideologies, and end up unable to present any arguments that make sense. You’re serving as Exhibit A on that matter right now.
Jager
@pragmatism: yes, they would build railroads on their own just like the “railroad barons’ did in the past, they must be holding out until the feds give them every other section of land on both sides of the right of way…same deal the government gave the barons!
pragmatism
@Sly: tunch is all the heft we need. intellectual or otherwise.
Makewi
@slag:
What’s sad is that you think you’re arguing a point rather than flailing around in the hopes of stumbling upon one.
I’ll leave it to you to try to figure out the differences between roads and rails – and why only one part of the country has anything even approaching a successful rail system. Try not to hurt yourself too bad when you miss the point, again.
Mike Kay ( Geronimo!!)
When did “bitch” become a homophobic word?
I mean, when David Chappell does his “I’m Rick James, bitch” parody, it doesn’t involve any gay context.
Roger Moore
@Sly:
Fewer bureaucratic impediments, but plenty of political impediments. The HSR has been approved by the voters, but there are plenty of steps the haters can take to try to slow it down. The biggest one will be to gum up the financial side, which will be a convenient byproduct of their simultaneous effort to bankrupt the state.
handy
@Makewi:
You are dim. It’s not an either-or proposition. The issue at hand is transportation and infrastructure. The Interstate system is one organ in that infrastructure, so are airports and rail. The key is you would want more options, not less, in how you move people, goods and services. This really isn’t that hard.
Or maybe you’re just DougJ trolling us once again.
Studly Pantload, now with enhanced schmuckosity
@Calouste:
Alas, no, I can’t see her going after DoD spending. But the overall approach of fighting fire with fire would be pretty sweet to see. The Dems could use subsidies and taxes as leverage in the negotiations, although I’m sure all that would do is once again expose the Republicans fiscal concerns as the sham they are. Which wouldn’t be a bad outcome.
fuzed
Um Chinese trains not sooo fast. href=”http://www.dailytech.com/China+Slows+High+Speed+Trains+Amid+Reports+of+Shoddy+Construction/article21489.htm> bad rails (=bad crack? ;-)
so yes still much slower than japanese, but at least in NJ (one day) nearly the same speed.
Caz
How about letting supply and demand dictate the necessity of high speed rail? The govt can throw money at it, but if there’s not a demand for it, then it’s a waste of money. The govt can’t create demand, all they can do is spend money to creat supply, so we’re going to have tons of rail that won’t be used and it will be (another) huge waste of tax dollars mandated by the govt. Typical liberal govt waste.
Tom Levenson
@jeff: Oh, me too. And the station stops aren’t a deep problem here. AFter all, no one thinks the NE is more densely packed than the Tokyo-Osaka corridor, and they rock on that line.
But no doubt, 160 would be fine; let the Japanese and the Chinese go faster than the FSM intended human frames to sustain. If I could get to NY in two hours or less from Boston, I’d be happier than a pig in…
Amanda in the South Bay
@CaelanAegana:
In order to go over the Siskyou Mountains in Northern CA/Southern OR, would cost an arm and a leg. I don’t think Eugene->SF could really be supported now via HSR. Engineering for HSR is different than just laying down tracks for freight or Amtrak.
In fact, I’ve seen people claim at CAHSR blog and some other sites that Eugene really shouldn’t be included in HSR from Portland to Vancouver, BC. Certainly the line should be electrified and double tracked, but that’s just about it now.
And yes, CA will hopefully get its HSR (Prop 1A in 2008) that will go from SF to LA. Stupid rich fucks in the Peninsula and rural Central Valley Republicans want to stop it.
Amanda in the South Bay
@Martin:
I think (but am not going to bet my savings on it) that dedicated HSR tracks require…well, they aren’t going to be run on run of the mill freight or existing Amtrak routes. FRA regulations I think (eek, going off memory here) won’t allow it, and HSR will be electrified, so there’s the question of how you fit that in with existing track.
Amanda in the South Bay
@Stefan:
I think a true West Coast HSR is sometime off. Its more important to get PDX-Van and SF-LA done first.
I think the other proposed route you are thinking of is DesertXpress.
EJ
Sounds like a good idea before we get all goo-goo about high speed trains. Maybe if we had fast regional trains like they have in Europe or Japan, people might actually ride a 220 mph train because they’d have access to local trains that connect to it.
Ash Can
@Caz: As Mistermix pointed out here this morning, the demand is there. To fail to expand Amtrak’s services to meet it goes against the free market system.
BTW, Makewi, that link above makes it apparent that you have no idea what you’re talking about. And I personally live in the midst of a thriving regional passenger rail network, which makes you look even dumber. Unless your objective is to simply be a troll and try to get people here to react in some way, any way, to you, I suggest you stop digging.
Amanda in the South Bay
Well, America had a pretty dense passenger rail network prior to the 50s and car culture and all that. Its amazing just how much electrified interurban rail we had back then. The real culprit is the switch to car culture, the suburbs, and the growth of the interstate highway system.
Mnemosyne
@Makewi:
No, this is about high-speed rail, which is completely different than light rail.
Or were you hoping to change the subject to light rail without anyone noticing?
Dr. SkySkull
China is actually working to develop a 1000 kph (620 mph) “vacuum train” that would travel in a partially-evacuated underground tunnel. Not sure if they’ll ever get it up and running, but they’re definitely thinking bigger, or at least talking it.
Mnemosyne
@Caz:
And yet when people proposed a route that would be wildly popular and a guaranteed moneymaker — Los Angeles to Las Vegas — all of a sudden you guys were screaming, “But think of cheeeldrin going from Disneyland to the Mustang Ranch! Won’t someone think of the cheeeldrin!”
Almost as if you guys are completely opposed to high-speed rail even when it would make a huge amount of money and pay for itself within a few years. Funny, that.
slag
@Dr. SkySkull: Vacuum tunnels? Seriously? Why not just go for wormholes?
Dr. SkySkull
@slag: Probably ’cause vacuum tunnels sound superficially plausible, while wormholes as yet don’t! :)
The proposed system sounds like a horrifying logistical nightmare: imagine trying to keep hundreds of miles of tunnels sufficiently and consistently vacuum-sealed. China loves to think big, though, from what I’ve seen.
Roger Moore
@Sly:
I thought it was “come for the snark, stay for the pet pics”. Snark may be insulting, but it’s insulting in a funny way that adds to the substantive criticism. Calling Greenwald a bitch is a whiny aside, not a snarky criticism.
arguingwithsignposts
@Caz:
How about letting the Free Market Fairies dictate the true prices (including externalities) of airplane travel and the highway system and see how your dumbass supply/demand equation works out?
Cain
@Caz:
Amtrak rider ship is at a 40 year high. Let’s put it in context for you..
I’m going to a conference in vancouver, bc from portland and it costs 120 for a round trip fare. It costs me 80 dollars to fill gas in my car for a one way trip (been there recently) Guess which one is cheaper. The difference in time is 2 hours and I’ll get off fresh as a daisy as I had a nice nap, beer.. whatever… plus vancouver’s excellent public transport means I don’t even have to have a car..
You have have to anticipate demand.. as high gas prices come, the demand for cheaper more commoditized transportation is required. You’d be one of those cranks who probably in the 80s would object to tax dollars to build the Internet. After all there was no demand for that was there.
Vision of where your country want to go is a big part of success. Cheap transportation is part of a successful business eco-system. There is nothing wrong with investing in that.
Cain
@Amanda in the South Bay:
Here here! I just mailed the gal on this website to see what Oregon’s plans are on high speed rail to Vancouver B.C. High speed rail would be awesome.. I’m hoping to ride it for the first time in the U.S. in August!
Amanda in the South Bay
@Cain:
Going to ride the Acela?
Omnes Omnibus
@Cain: I’ve taken the Vancouver-Seattle leg of that rail journey. The train is great and the scenery is awesome.
Cain
@Cain:
Amanda, wikipedia provides a nice summary of what all is going on with the rail project. Here
Roger Moore
@Caz:
You mean the same way we let supply and demand dictate the necessity of building freeways? Oh, wait, freeways are subsidized, which is why they’re freeways rather than toll roads. But don’t let facts interfere with your ideology.
Cain
@Amanda in the South Bay:
Oh yeah.. and it comes with a 5 dollar bicycle rental! How cool is that! I’m so stoked! I’ve always wanted to do that.. ride my bike to another country.. how awesome is that.. rail makes it happen baby.
Omnes Omnibus
@Roger Moore: But we pay for freeways with our taxes so it’s okay.
/snark
Cain
@Omnes Omnibus:
I’ve never ridden trains in the U.S…. extensively in India.. although I wish they had high speed rail too..but they are in fact a lot of cow crossings, goat crossings etc etc.. not really easy.. but who knows.
As for Oregon -> Vancouver.. the wikipedia article was talking about 110 miles/hour. I was a little disappointed with that. I really wnated to see about 150-180 or so. If we can make it fast and cheap.. rider ship will be way up!
Omnes Omnibus
@Cain: For a significant section trip between Vancouver and Seattle, you ride with the ocean on one side and mountains on the other. On my trip, there was a place where we saw at least a dozen bald eagles fishing and playing. Following this, we watched the sun set into the ocean. Gorgeous.
Cain
@Omnes Omnibus:
That is awesome.. can’t wait!
Gene in Princeton
If you happen to be in the Princeton Junction train station, just outside of Princeton, you can see a brass plaque on the wall that commemorates the first high-speed rail project in the area. In the late ’60s/early 70s, General Dynamics and other technology contributors ran turbine trains along this stretch of track between Trenton and New Brunswick up to about 170 mph. So the “Central New Jersey” cite caught my attention–it was done here 40 years ago.
Jay C
@Mnemosyne:
This. LA- Las Vegas is, for the Western US, one of the few routes where taking a train – especially a high-speed one – might be probably the most viable mode of transport; especially for the gambling trade in Vegas where you don’t really need a car to get around once you’re there; and yet, again, the GOP’s anti-train obsession has derailed the possibility. Weird.
I’m guessing that what Makewi is trying to say – albeit so stupidly and snarkily that the point is nearly lost – is a gloss on the Chris Christie/Rick Scott/Scott Walker line; that Federal funding of HSR is a “trap” for the states, as the G might pay for creating the lines in the first place, but that the (poor, cash-strapped) states will, in the future, have to pick up operating/maintenance costs, etc. for what Republicans see as insane wastes of time/money/effort for whatever twisted reason Republicans see anything.
Of course, since the users (they’re called “passengers”) of said rail systems actually have to pay fees (they’re called “train fares”) to ride them, there WILL be some income stream coming in to offset those costs. But then, when “anti-rail” is the PC attitude in GOPerville, no argument CAN be sufficient…
Cerberus
You know what’s delicious about all the Randroid wingnuts ranting about the evils of trains?
The fact that their most cherished fictional icons were railroad barons.
It’s like if a bunch of Christians strongly supported torture…
Oh, wait.
Cerberus
@Jay C:
Well, he would have an argument if the anti-train push from conservatives wasn’t all about repeating oil and car industry talking points that only exist because those industries are heavily frightened about genuine competition.
If these people were really so worried about being “on the hook” for subsidizing an entire industry of transportation then they would flock to trains like the last boat off the titanic. Trains have fees, they pay for themselves. This is unlike the current state of affairs (roads), where every pothole, expansion, repaired bridge and overpass comes directly out of the public coffers so that “driving a car will be cheaper than other forms of transportation”. And considering how badly run down said infrastructure is, the chance to get a brand-new system, completely paid for by the feds, that will reduce the need to expand your already over-taxed roadway system is a state’s wet dream.
But they’re not. They are being paid heavily by the oil and car companies to put a stop to unprofitable competition and they can spout all they want about principles, but their actions speak far louder than their words.
In short, the anti-train blather is the epitome of “bad-faith arguments”.
EJ
@Jay C:
The Desert XPress train (or whatever it’s called) seems like it’s on track to get built eventually. The feds killed the maglev train, but a lot of passenger rail advocates opposed maglev as well. Regular wheel on rail HSR can hook into existing rail networks – maglev means you’ve got to create a whole new guideway, at vast expense, from start to finish.
Ozymandias, King of Ants
@Amanda in the South Bay:
I wouldn’t be so certain about the Central Valley. I was at a family gathering deepindahearta said Central Valley and everyone was talking about how they hoped the actions of the peninsula NIMBYs would make the CHSRA consider building the Valley segment first. And I was hearing that from awfully conservative people.
Cerberus
@Mnemosyne:
FTFY.
Most every randroid for all their talk about freedom and competition are anti-competition at heart.
They don’t want new systems to displace the old status quo, because the average randroid feels they have mastered the status quo and gotten it to work for them. They certainly don’t want existing industries to have to compete with new efficient industries.
And in case you think this hyperbole, look at the critical negative response to even the most basic of a social safety net, even though a solid safety net is critical to employee mobility and the ability to start your own business, because few will quit and go work for themselves if that means no healthcare and a possibility of losing everything if it doesn’t work out.
They fear a genuinely free market where the customers and workers can fight back and assert themselves, maybe even compete against the big boys, because that’s not what has been working for them.
Hell, most of them are randroids because it was a non-bigoted way to express their fear of women, black people, and poor people fairly competing against them for opportunities. It’s why so few randroids are for easy abortion access, but nearly all are against public assistance (because government is just too big).
EJ
@Dr. SkySkull:
The “vactrain” idea has been around for decades. IIRC there was one in San Francisco in Star Trek IV. As you say, the devil is in the logistics of evacuating all those miles of tunnel. Given the Chinese government’s penchant for these type of announcements, I’ll believe it when I see an actual working prototype.
The concept is basically sound, though, and aerodynamic drag is a major problem when you try to run trains much faster than the current fastest high speed trains. In fact, when both the Spanish and the Chinese have tried running regular trains at faster than 300 km/h, they’ve had to subsequently reduce speeds in regular service, largely because aerodynamic drag sharply reduces energy efficiency.
Jay C
@EJ:
I hadn’t realized the LA-LV rail link had been intended to be maglev: that, at least WOULD be a boondoggle; “conventional” HSR: not so much: I’ve driven from LA to LV, and since there’s not much east of San Bernardino, the whole “time eaten up by stops” argument doesn’t fly – not there, anyway.
@Cerberus:
Oh, and to add to the list of bad-faith arguments, I’ve noticed that GOP anti-railers almost always tend to talk up the “freedom” of widespread auto transport – as if the sole any only transportation options for the US are automotive “freedom”, and railborne -presumably – inflexibility and regimentation. Not to mention unavoidable association with the unwashed masses of the impecunious hoi polloi.
Sasha
As a Floridian, allow me to say:
Fuck Rick Scott.
Unsympathetic
220 mph is not at all achievable in China, Tom. The tracks in China are not built with enough high-quality steel to allow even close to that speed. The engines in China may be able to do 220, but the tracks simply won’t support it.
The leader of China’s rail network was fired just recently for this exact reason.
Sustainable 160 is actually still higher than what the Chinese can do.
Grumpy Code Monkey
IINM, the Trans-Texas corridor was supposed to include ROW for new high-speed rail, although I don’t know if that was passenger or freight.
There is one big issue with HSR which will keep it from being widely adopted. You can’t use existing rail infrastructure for HSR; you’d have to build a new, parallel rail system, meaning you’d have to condemn and buy a lot of land (the TTC had property-rights advocates all across the state shitting their pants).
asiangrrlMN
I love taking the train. I did it a few times when I lived in the Bay Area, and it’s a really enjoyable way to travel, in my humble opinion. I feel bad for the people of FLA who did not vote for Rick Scott–for those who did, no sympathy at all.
By all means, wingnut governors, keep refusing that sweet federal money. The rest of us will enjoy it instead.
Mnemosyne
@Cerberus:
@Jay C:
Don’t forget the other industry that will do anything they can to kill a high-speed train between LA and Las Vegas — the airlines. Southwest etc. make a crapload of money doing that short hop, and a high speed train would seriously undercut their business.
edo
My guess is that for Rick Scott, the only time it’s okay to accept money from the government is if it’s fraud.
jomo
New Brunswick to PA in 8 minutes. Music to my ears.
Wanpaku
I have taken the new Shanghai-Hangzhou bullet train 5 times in the last couple months. It is fast. The speed they give is the top speed, not the average speed. I live in Japan and have been on Japanese shinkansen dozens of times. I have no trouble believing that the Chinese trains are hitting the speeds they claim. It feels like the Shinkansen.
The trains run on time, they are cheap (for a foreigner) and business class is comfortable. The best part is not having to deal with the insane drivers on the highway.
I was already worried about Chinese construction. Now I’m seriously rethinking transport for my next trip.
Ivan Ivanovich Renko
@Wanpaku: This. I’ve taken the same train several times, and it’s marvelous- compares well to trains I’ve taken in Deutschland- and we all know how the Germans are about keeping the trains on time…
No, the Chinese rail network can’t handle high-speed rail all over. YET. But at least they’re friggin’ TRYIN’. They’re also building wind turbines like frickin’ mad.
Like I said in another train-thread: I’ve ridden the train in China- sweet, fast and cheap. I’ve ridden the train in Germany- sweet, fast and cheap. I just LOOK at Amtrak’s cars and I’m embarassed.
Hell, everytime I hit a pothole I get embarassed- in driving all over Germany, Austria and Slovakia I never ONCE saw or felt any potholes whatsoever.
Infrastructure? We don’ need no stinkin’ infrastructure! (/conservative)