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the 10% who apparently lack object permanence

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You are here: Home / Economics / Fuck The Middle-Class / Gold paint on the palace gates comes from the teeth of pensioners

Gold paint on the palace gates comes from the teeth of pensioners

by DougJ|  May 16, 201110:51 am| 121 Comments

This post is in: Fuck The Middle-Class, Fuck The Poor

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What better way to indulge Village/winger fantasies for a few months?

The Obama administration will begin to tap federal retiree programs to help fund operations after the government loses its ability Monday to borrow more money from the public, adding urgency to efforts in Washington to fashion a compromise over the debt.

Even the liberal Washington Post editorial board supports using the debt ceiling vote as a pretext to end Social Security.

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Reader Interactions

121Comments

  1. 1.

    ChrisS

    May 16, 2011 at 11:02 am

    Jeebus… I’ve got to stop reading politics and the news sites again. I don’t have the stomach for this shit.

  2. 2.

    hildebrand

    May 16, 2011 at 11:03 am

    From the linked editorial:

    Certainly, without the emergence of presidential leadership, it’s impossible to imagine how a breakthrough can be achieved.

    Is this not a rather backhanded admission that Obama is the only adult in the conversation?

  3. 3.

    amorphous

    May 16, 2011 at 11:03 am

    Why does Obama hate our seniors?

  4. 4.

    Omnes Omnibus

    May 16, 2011 at 11:06 am

    I really think that Obama and the rest of the Democrats need to just say no to everything until a large enough groups the GOP is willing to face reality and vote to raise the thing. I would possibly be okay with a few face saving compromises for those who come over, but that is about it.

    ETA: Doug Harlan J, how long have you been waiting for the chance to use this Costello lyric? This song is probably a gold mine of post titles.

  5. 5.

    Bulworth

    May 16, 2011 at 11:06 am

    Even the liberal Washington Post editorial board supports using the debt ceiling vote as a pretext to end Social Security.

    Yeah, this is a great idea. It isn’t like changes to Social Security need to be debated in a reasonable amount of time where concerned constituents can make their views known to their representatives in Congress.

  6. 6.

    liberal

    May 16, 2011 at 11:07 am

    Why doesn’t Obama just call the Rethuglicans’ bluff and say he won’t sign a bill to raise the debt ceiling that has anything else in it? (per Matthew Yglesias on negotiating with terrorists)

  7. 7.

    Danny

    May 16, 2011 at 11:08 am

    “Even the liberal Washington Post editorial board”

    In other news from the front: While Conservatives successfully establish meme by heavy message bombardment, Liberals defend their ground furiously with subtle irony.

  8. 8.

    mr. whipple

    May 16, 2011 at 11:08 am

    Is Obama throwing my parents under the bus?

  9. 9.

    Lolis

    May 16, 2011 at 11:08 am

    Hey, it makes sense to borrow from retirement accounts to keep the Galtian overlords rich in order to negotiate a permanent cut in the retirement accounts of seniors to keep the Galtian overlords rich.

    Obama and other Democrats deserve some blame for this situation. This was the time to draw the line in the sand. Obama should have to do no more than Bush did to raise the debt ceiling the three or four times he did it. I agree with digby that Democrats want to cut because they think it will help their electoral prospects.

  10. 10.

    Bulworth

    May 16, 2011 at 11:10 am

    It’s clear that there will not be enough Republican support for an up-or-down vote on the debt ceiling itself. Some conditions will have to be attached — reforms in the budget process, broader agreement on future spending levels — to lure enough Republican votes to secure passage.

    And this is obviously what the Post regards as the perfectly centrist and bipartisany stance.

  11. 11.

    Alex S.

    May 16, 2011 at 11:11 am

    Tim Geithner said that the Treasury has got a few tricks up its’ sleeves to ensure spending until August. I’ve been wondering what kind of tricks they are.

  12. 12.

    Daulnay

    May 16, 2011 at 11:11 am

    Even the liberal Washington Post editorial board

    The Washington Post hasn’t been liberal since the Post was captured by the neocons.

  13. 13.

    Tonybrown74

    May 16, 2011 at 11:13 am

    @ChrisS:

    Jeebus… I’ve got to stop reading politics and the news sites again. I don’t have the stomach for this shit.

    Ditto!

    +5

  14. 14.

    Cliff in NH

    May 16, 2011 at 11:13 am

    Today’s consequences from the failure to promptly raise the debt ceiling:

    http://www.treasury.gov/connect/blog/Documents/20110516Letter%20to%20Congress.pdf

    The Honorable Harry Reid
    Democratic Leader
    United States Senate
    Washington, DC 20510
    Dear Mr. Leader:
    I am writing to notify you, as required under 5 U.S.C. § 8348(l)(2), of my determination that, by
    reason of the statutory debt limit, I will be unable to invest fully the portion of the Civil Service
    Retirement and Disability Fund (“CSRDF”) not immediately required to pay beneficiaries. For
    purposes of this statute, I have determined that a “debt issuance suspension period” will begin
    today, May 16, 2011, and last until August 2, 2011, when the Department of the Treasury
    projects that the borrowing authority of the United States will be exhausted. During this “debt
    issuance suspension period,” the Treasury Department will suspend additional investments of
    amounts credited to, and redeem a portion of the investments held by, the CSRDF, as authorized
    by law.
    In addition, I am notifying you, as required under 5 U.S.C. § 8438(h)(2), of my determination
    that, by reason of the statutory debt limit, I will be unable to invest fully the Government
    Securities Investment Fund (“G Fund”) of the Federal Employees’ Retirement System in
    interest-bearing securities of the United States, beginning today, May 16, 2011. The statute
    governing G Fund investments expressly authorizes the Secretary of the Treasury to suspend
    investment of the G Fund to avoid breaching the statutory debt limit.
    Each of these actions has been taken in the past by my predecessors during previous debt limit
    impasses. By law, the CSRDF and G Funds will be made whole once the debt limit is increased.
    Federal retirees and employees will be unaffected by these actions.
    I have written to Congress on previous occasions regarding the importance of timely action to
    increase the debt limit in order to protect the full faith and credit of the United States and avoid
    catastrophic economic consequences for citizens. I again urge Congress to act to increase the
    statutory debt limit as soon as possible.
    Sincerely,
    Timothy F. Geithner

  15. 15.

    Bulworth

    May 16, 2011 at 11:14 am

    Some conditions will have to be attached — reforms in the budget process, broader agreement on future spending levels — to lure enough Republican votes to secure passage.

    Does the Washington Post understand that appropriation bills are passed annually? I mean, we don’t pass five year spending bills, or ten year spending bills.

  16. 16.

    Yutsano

    May 16, 2011 at 11:14 am

    @Alex S.: I’ve already seen some at work. We had all our overtime budget revoked, and now this trick with the “borrowing” from the federal retirement system (which I contribute to) will affect me as well. Of course this will mean nothing if I go on forced vacation because we have to lay off right before the ceiling really hits. I don’t think this goes up until August.

  17. 17.

    Danny

    May 16, 2011 at 11:17 am

    @Lolis:

    Self-hating liberals – winning elections for the Republican party since 1968.

    IOW, no they don’t.

  18. 18.

    4tehlulz

    May 16, 2011 at 11:21 am

    @Alex S.: One of the absolute-last-resort options I heard would be to sell the US Gov’t’s gold reserve.

    I have to confess, I would giggle my ass off if a bunch of Galtard gold bugs got fucked over because the US was forced to dump its shiny yellow metal.

  19. 19.

    JonF

    May 16, 2011 at 11:22 am

    Even single dollar taken from the pension plan has to be paid back. Thats Federal law.

  20. 20.

    chopper

    May 16, 2011 at 11:22 am

    @Cliff in NH:

    wait, so how will my TSP be affected here? i have a lot in the G fund right now.

  21. 21.

    The Republic of Stupidity

    May 16, 2011 at 11:23 am

    Even the liberal Washington Post editorial board supports using the debt ceiling vote as a pretext to end Social Security.

    And does the WaPo also endorse using the debt ceiling vote as a pretext to end Congressional pensions in the same bold, daring stroke?

  22. 22.

    blackfrancis

    May 16, 2011 at 11:23 am

    @mr. whipple:

    Is Obama throwing my parents under the bus?

    This shows you are not a Real Republican. A Real Republican would have asked: “Is Obama throwing my parents under the back of the bus?”

  23. 23.

    Lolis

    May 16, 2011 at 11:24 am

    @Danny:

    Ha, I am actually pretty much an Obot, but whatever. On this instance, Obama has sucked. I am not afraid to say it.

  24. 24.

    Yutsano

    May 16, 2011 at 11:29 am

    @chopper: I’m not sure either. And my whole TSP is in there right now (wasn’t going to touch until I was a GS-6) but now I’m a touch worried.

    @JonF: I take that as no guarantee. I was told I’d be paid if I were labeled essential too. I never take these things as gospel.

  25. 25.

    Poopyman

    May 16, 2011 at 11:31 am

    You know, a massive strike by Federal workers might move things along, but there’s no organization for that in this country. Pity.

  26. 26.

    4tehlulz

    May 16, 2011 at 11:33 am

    @Poopyman: Why would you do the Republicans that favor?

  27. 27.

    Danny

    May 16, 2011 at 11:36 am

    @Lolis:

    I’m only saying that every time republicans are willing to throw the country out the window to pursue their political ends – such as the obstruction and hate mongering of the 111th congress or this game of chicken now with the debt ceiling – and the end result is that conservatives are mobilized but liberals are bitching amongst themselves, the repubs get more incentive to keep doing it for all eternity, to the detriment of the country. It’s a win-win proposition for them.

  28. 28.

    catclub

    May 16, 2011 at 11:41 am

    @chopper: It seems to me that since the G fund buys US government bonds, that if the US government is not selling such bonds, because it cannot, then that is a change to the G fund.

    maybe the TSP will have to go on the open market to buy such bonds – and bid up the price astronomically! (Bad for G fund,
    good for the sellers to the G fund.)

  29. 29.

    catclub

    May 16, 2011 at 11:43 am

    @JonF: “Even single dollar taken from the pension plan has to be paid back. Thats Federal law.”

    Any relation to the pirate code – which is really more of a suggestion?

    or how about the Federal law related to the ratification of the International Treaty on Torture,
    that says that any nation that finds torture has to prosecute or turn such people over to international courts?
    Funny.

  30. 30.

    Cliff in NH

    May 16, 2011 at 11:43 am

    @chopper:

    From the Appendix of the possible extrordanary measures that can be (must be to last till aug) used once we hit the debt limit (Today):

    http://www.treasury.gov/connect/blog/Pages/letter-to-congress.aspx

    The G Fund is a money market defined-contribution retirement fund for Federal employees. The Fund is invested in special-issue Treasury securities, which count against the debt limit. The entire balance matures daily and is ordinarily reinvested. Congress has granted Treasury the statutory authority to suspend reinvestment of all or part of the balance of the G Fund when the Secretary determines that the Fund cannot be fully invested without exceeding the debt limit.[10]

    Using this measure immediately frees up headroom under the debt limit. Because the G Fund balance is approximately $130 billion, using this measure can immediately create up to approximately $130 billion in headroom.

    During the period of the investment suspension, payments from the G Fund continue to be made as long as the United States has not yet exhausted the extraordinary measures. Once the United States has exhausted the extraordinary measures, however, the U.S. Government will be limited in its ability to make payments across the government. After the debt limit impasse has ended, the G Fund is made whole.[11]

  31. 31.

    Jazz Superluminar

    May 16, 2011 at 11:43 am

    @Poppyman
    Is there really no Union for Federal-level workers? That is really dumb (unless such a thing is legally prohibited).

  32. 32.

    Jazz Superluminar

    May 16, 2011 at 11:46 am

    I thought that the actual debt ceiling comes to an end a month or two from now, so this is basically a preliminary skirmish, or am I wrong?

  33. 33.

    jayackroyd

    May 16, 2011 at 11:47 am

    I say sell the gold stocks. If the US did, it would be selling into rising market as the gold bugs went absolutely bat shit crazy.

    wiki says 8133.5 tonnes. That’s 261498097.4711 troy ounces. AT 1200 dollars an ounce, that’s $313,797,716,965.32

    Ka-ching.

  34. 34.

    Yutsano

    May 16, 2011 at 11:47 am

    @Jazz Superluminar: One single union? No. There is the National Treasury Employees’ Union for workers in the IRS (I’m a member) but by law we cannot strike. I’m not sure what the next move is gonna be here though.

  35. 35.

    Carol from CO

    May 16, 2011 at 11:49 am

    @Cliff in NH: The cons are loving it, I’m sure. What could be more fun than screwing government employees who are overpaid and underworked anyway.

  36. 36.

    Mary Jane

    May 16, 2011 at 11:51 am

    @JonF:

    Even single dollar taken from the pension plan has to be paid back. Thats Federal law.

    Shhhh. Facts, schmacts. Do you want to dampen the outrage that the hair on fire crowd is working itself up to? This announcement is probably the most exciting thing they’ve heard this Monday morning.

    FYWP.

  37. 37.

    Poopyman

    May 16, 2011 at 11:51 am

    @4tehlulz: Hmmmm. Well, you have a point that Dems would panic first, but I’d like to think the disruption would move the Republicans’ overlords to drop the hammer, and we’d get the ceiling raised.

    Point taken, though, that the Right Wing Noise Machine would go into overdrive to make the Dems squeal.

  38. 38.

    Carol from CO

    May 16, 2011 at 11:52 am

    @Jazz Superluminar: The debt ceiling was reached today, but Treasury has managed some stop gap measures that will end some time in August. That’s my understanding anyway.

  39. 39.

    cat48

    May 16, 2011 at 11:55 am

    Ok, never done this before, but Obama will get a sternly worded letter from me about this since I am a Federal retiree & I’m pissed their taking our money.

  40. 40.

    burnspbesq

    May 16, 2011 at 11:55 am

    @Bulworth:

    That’s a gross misstatement of what the Post editorial actually says, and I’m inclined to think it’s a deliberate and knowing misstatement.

  41. 41.

    OzoneR

    May 16, 2011 at 11:58 am

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I really think that Obama and the rest of the Democrats need to just say no to everything until a large enough groups the GOP is willing to face reality and vote to raise the thing.

    LOL, GOP? willing to face reality?

  42. 42.

    Omnes Omnibus

    May 16, 2011 at 12:02 pm

    @OzoneR: The big biz affiliated people will come to heel eventually. There should be enough of them along with the Dems to raise the ceiling without doing anything stupid.

  43. 43.

    burnspbesq

    May 16, 2011 at 12:02 pm

    @catclub:

    I think it’s more likely that employee TSP contributions that are earmarked for the G fund will be held in some sort of (hopefully interest-bearing) suspense fund until Treasury can start issuing securities that are permissible G fund investments again.

  44. 44.

    OzoneR

    May 16, 2011 at 12:02 pm

    @Lolis:

    This was the time to draw the line in the sand. Obama should have to do no more than Bush did to raise the debt ceiling the three or four times he did it. I agree with digby that Democrats want to cut because they think it will help their electoral prospects.

    drawing a line in the sand wouldn’t have prevented the need to raid pensions.

  45. 45.

    beltane

    May 16, 2011 at 12:02 pm

    @ChrisS: This is why I’ve gone Galt, Chris. Something about Donald Trump and the birther BS pushed me over the edge and now I can only pop into political sites briefly and sporadically. The stoopid was starting to affect me on a physical level. It’s good news for my garden which is the loveliest it has ever been thanks to the GOP’s never ending freak circus.

    Now we know why all the sane people retreated into monasteries as the Roman Empire crumbled.

  46. 46.

    Jewish Steel

    May 16, 2011 at 12:03 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: According to the interview that accompanied the Rykodisc re issue, it’s EC’s fave set of lyrics. It’s a tour de force, Tokyo Storm Warning.

  47. 47.

    fasteddie9318

    May 16, 2011 at 12:04 pm

    @jayackroyd: Even $1200/oz strikes me as wildly optimistic. As soon as the government announced a plan to dump the gold supply on the market the per ounce price would crash.

  48. 48.

    OzoneR

    May 16, 2011 at 12:04 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    The big biz affiliated people will come to heel eventually. There should be enough of them along with the Dems to raise the ceiling without doing anything stupid.

    They already did and they still haven’t raised the limit. They don’t have the votes without significant cuts. That’s what happens when you give the Republicans their largest majority since 1947.

  49. 49.

    fasteddie9318

    May 16, 2011 at 12:06 pm

    For once, would it be possible for folks on the left to present a united front focusing their anger over this where it belongs, or is this destined to become another OBAMA SOLD US OUT! moment? Why do I even bother asking?

  50. 50.

    OzoneR

    May 16, 2011 at 12:07 pm

    @Lolis:

    On this instance, Obama has sucked.

    I’m actually surprised anyone thinks Obama has sucked in this specifically. He could’ve agreed to very significant cuts already and hasn’t. He’s gonna get the blame for whatever crisis ensues from not raising the debt ceiling. It’s in his own interest to have struck a deal already, and he hasn’t.

    This is very different than tax cuts or healthcare, both of which he was even quicker to compromise. He’s really playing with fire here.

  51. 51.

    Jazz Superluminar

    May 16, 2011 at 12:08 pm

    @Yutsano
    Ok, thanks for that, and I have to say I was overly hasty in asking as in Britain, there is no such thing either, although we do have a union that’s for all Civil Service employees (which would include your job), it doesn’t cover the much vaster sector of public sector employees (eg NHS, school teachers etc). Also, a Thatcher-era law prevents secondary striking (no chance of that being rescinded any time soon, and I guess you have similar), so there’s sadly little chance of getting the entire public workforce to strike at the same time. I am curious though as to what “other actions” you guys would be able to take?

  52. 52.

    Cliff in NH

    May 16, 2011 at 12:09 pm

    @fasteddie9318:
    http://www.treasury.gov/connect/blog/Pages/letter-to-congress.aspx#_ftnref15

    Although the U.S. Government owns other assets, such as gold, there are prudential or legal limitations on its ability to sell these assets. Selling the Nation’s gold to meet payment obligations would undercut confidence in the United States both here and abroad, and would be extremely destabilizing to the world financial system.

  53. 53.

    OzoneR

    May 16, 2011 at 12:10 pm

    @fasteddie9318:

    For once, would it be possible for folks on the left to present a united front focusing their anger over this where it belongs, or is this destined to become another OBAMA SOLD US OUT! moment?

    A quarter of Democrats don’t want the debt ceiling raised, half have no idea what’s going on, a united front?

  54. 54.

    Omnes Omnibus

    May 16, 2011 at 12:11 pm

    @OzoneR: No, big business is making its wishes known, but the congresscritters beholden to them have not yet come to heel. They are still running and barking with the Tea Party pack. When push comes to shove, those reps will probably vote to raise the ceiling. If they don’t, their election funding goes away and so do their wingnut welfare sinecures. They will look after number one.

  55. 55.

    Cliff in NH

    May 16, 2011 at 12:13 pm

    @Alex S.:

    Tim Geithner said that the Treasury has got a few tricks up its’ sleeves to ensure spending until August. I’ve been wondering what kind of tricks they are.

    Here is the full list of tricks the have to use to keep the gov running after the debt limit was hit (it was hit today)

    http://www.treasury.gov/connect/blog/Pages/letter-to-congress.aspx#_ftnref1

  56. 56.

    OzoneR

    May 16, 2011 at 12:13 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    They are still running and barking with the Tea Party pack. When push comes to shove, those reps will probably vote to raise the ceiling. If they don’t, their election funding goes away and so do their wingnut welfare sinecures.

    If they don’t, the economy sinks into a double-dip recession and they get to blame Obama. Businesses will still back them regardless. Who are they going to back? Democrats?

    These people in Congress are fucking crazy, sane explanations don’t work for them.

  57. 57.

    Lolis

    May 16, 2011 at 12:16 pm

    @OzoneR:

    But on this instance the Chamber and Wall St. lobby are completely behind the Democratic position. They want the debt ceiling raised ASAP and have said shenanigans could hurt the market. In all the other fights, big business with all their dollars have been firmly on the side of Republicans. The president and Democrats had the upper hand because the moneyed interests were on their side. So they are basically negotiating even though the moneyed interests would get Republicans in line without any WH deal. This is much different than health care and the budget deal where I recognized the need for compromise and was happy enough with the final results.

  58. 58.

    Alex S.

    May 16, 2011 at 12:24 pm

    @Cliff in NH:

    Ah, thanks!

  59. 59.

    Omnes Omnibus

    May 16, 2011 at 12:24 pm

    @OzoneR: So what do you say should be done? End Social Security now or do it piecemeal? It is funny that, on any issue, you are among the first to say that, whatever the liberal or Democratic approach is, it will never work, people are too dumb, we are a center-right nation, etc.. Where and when should liberals and democrats draw a line in the sand?

  60. 60.

    OzoneR

    May 16, 2011 at 12:26 pm

    @Lolis:

    But on this instance the Chamber and Wall St. lobby are completely behind the Democratic position. They want the debt ceiling raised ASAP and have said shenanigans could hurt the market.

    I’m aware, but tea party Republicans DO NOT CARE. They didn’t care when they voted down renewing the Patriot Act, they don’t care now. They’re lunatics, nobody can put them in line. Not torture apologists, not the military industrial complex, not big money interests.

  61. 61.

    Walker

    May 16, 2011 at 12:27 pm

    @Alex S.:

    How about not paying congress people?

  62. 62.

    OzoneR

    May 16, 2011 at 12:28 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    So what do you say should be done?

    For starters, we should kept Congress out of their hands, having failed that, do whatever we need to do to keep the economy from collapsing, then fix it later.

    Where and when should liberals and democrats draw a line in the sand?

    when they have the 218th vote. If that means getting rid of Social Security, then goodbye Social Security. America asked for this, stop trying to save it from itself.

  63. 63.

    maya

    May 16, 2011 at 12:28 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Where and when should liberals and democrats draw a line in the sand?

    I think it should be at selling off the federal cat food reserves. As I’m sure Tunch would agree.

  64. 64.

    fasteddie9318

    May 16, 2011 at 12:29 pm

    @OzoneR:

    when they have the 218th vote.

    Liberals are never going to have the 218th vote, and they’re never going to have 60 votes in the Senate either. So I guess the appropriate thing to do is nothing.

  65. 65.

    Walker

    May 16, 2011 at 12:30 pm

    @Cliff in NH:

    Holy crap. One of their options is selling the mortgage-backed securities they pulled of the banks. That should be interesting, and not in a good way.

  66. 66.

    OzoneR

    May 16, 2011 at 12:34 pm

    @fasteddie9318:

    Liberals are never going to have the 218th vote, and they’re never going to have 60 votes in the Senate either.

    Then they’re never going to get anything passed and should learn to live with it.

    My personal feelings are the people will come around to our side when they’re forced to face the horrors of the other side. The more we try to protect them, the more they resist. Pride is a virtue in this country and the American people want to believe they can pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Let them fucking try. Once they’re forced to live in a world without Medicare and Social Security, then they’ll either came crawling back to us on hands and knees and beg us to fix it, by giving progressives the votes they need to reinstate that stuff and more, or they won’t and we’ll finally be done with this godforsaken country.

    Yes, that means we suffer too, but revolutions aren’t easy. Robespierre once said “Omlettes are not made without breaking eggs.”

  67. 67.

    Omnes Omnibus

    May 16, 2011 at 12:35 pm

    @OzoneR: That’s what I thought.
    @fasteddie9318: Basically, OzoneR is a cooler. Intentional or unintentional, that is the cumulative effect of his/her posts.

  68. 68.

    fasteddie9318

    May 16, 2011 at 12:36 pm

    @OzoneR: If they didn’t come around in 08, then it ain’t happening.

    Let the Republicans break the eggs.

    Unfortunately, when Republicans break eggs the DC press blames the Democrats for letting them have eggs in the first place.

    And, it should be asked, if this is your idea, why bother trying to save the economy? The harder it crashes, the more people “wake up” to the horrors of the other side, no?

  69. 69.

    Jazz Superluminar

    May 16, 2011 at 12:41 pm

    If that means getting rid of Social Security, then goodbye Social Security. America asked for this, stop trying to save it from itself.

    Really? Really? wow why don’t you just start waving a fucking white flag already? Are you actually in any sense of the word a liberal? Following your logic, such as it is, people may as well vote for anyone to do anything and everyone should just go along with it. Calling you a Nihilist would be an insult to people of that persuasion. You’re a fucking idiot.

  70. 70.

    OzoneR

    May 16, 2011 at 12:42 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Basically, OzoneR is a cooler.

    I don’t know what this means, but you’re probably right.

    I think America is a right wing country in the same way Don Lemon was straight until yesterday, because this country thinks that’s what’s expected of them. Because they’re afraid being who they are will make them look weak and lily-livered, basically they’re everything we criticize the Democrats for being.

    The more we force them out of the closet, the more they resist.

    For the record, I think Obama deserves reelection because he’s been an excellent president and has made the right decisions in the face of ugly resistance from extremes on both sides. I also think win or lose, this country will move left faster because they’d be forced to face the consequences of their decisions faster.

  71. 71.

    OzoneR

    May 16, 2011 at 12:44 pm

    @fasteddie9318:

    If they didn’t come around in 08, then it ain’t happening.

    In 2005, I said the Democrats should sit back and let the Republican privatize Social Security, and I still think liberals would be in a far better position politically if we did.

    The best think about parliamentary systems is the minority party can’t do anything to stop the majority party from enacting their positions. I think we need that in this country.

  72. 72.

    Jazz Superluminar

    May 16, 2011 at 12:44 pm

    OzoneR:

    people will come around to our side

    LOLz

  73. 73.

    Linnaeus

    May 16, 2011 at 12:45 pm

    @OzoneR:

    My personal feelings are the people will come around to our side when they’re forced to face the horrors of the other side. The more we try to protect them, the more they resist. Pride is a virtue in this country and the American people want to believe they can pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Let them fucking try. Once they’re forced to live in a world without Medicare and Social Security, then they’ll either came crawling back to us on hands and knees and beg us to fix it, by giving progressives the votes they need to reinstate that stuff and more, or they won’t and we’ll finally be done with this godforsaken country.

    That’s a very dangerous proposition. Heightening the contradictions could also result in the populace shifting farther to the right and enabling an authoritarian right-wing government. They’ll be looking for someone to blame for their position, and it’s by no means certain that they’ll hold the right responsible for imposing destitution on the country.

  74. 74.

    Yutsano

    May 16, 2011 at 12:49 pm

    @OzoneR:

    I think America is a right wing country in the same way Don Lemon was straight until yesterday

    Wow that was stupid. Like Don Lemon only preferred men ONLY when you realized it. Are you honestly that self-absorbed?

    Because they’re afraid being who they are will make them look weak and lily-livered, basically they’re everything we criticize the Democrats for being

    Not being over the Red Scare couldn’t possibly have anything to do with it, now could it? Nah. It’s just an attitude all Americans are genetically predisposed to. At least that’s your implication here.

    I also think win or lose, this country will move left faster because they’d be forced to face the consequences of their decisions faster.

    Wrong. That was tried already. What moves the country left is proving that leftish theories are correct. Waiting around for the consequences of the right to take effect is dangerous, and we don’t have the time.

  75. 75.

    OzoneR

    May 16, 2011 at 12:50 pm

    @Linnaeus:

    Heightening the contradictions could also result in the populace shifting farther to the right and enabling an authoritarian right-wing government

    yes it could, but then at least we’d know where the people really stand

    and we can get the hell out of here.

  76. 76.

    JonF

    May 16, 2011 at 12:50 pm

    @catclub: No offense, but that a nonsensical answer. The Treasury dept is legally required to replace every dollar they take from the pension plan.

  77. 77.

    Danny

    May 16, 2011 at 12:51 pm

    @OzoneR:

    100% agreed, first priority win elections. Reviewing Dem performance is relevant – sure – but who are we kidding, the republican crop of 2011 are hell bent on destroying the country, so this meta b-shit about whether the dems are good negotiators etc is a distraction. It shouldnt be the front page story, it should be 200 words on page 15.

    when they have the 218th vote. If that means getting rid of Social Security, then goodbye Social Security. America asked for this, stop trying to save it from itself.

    I agree that that what’s happening now is the sitting out of the ’10 midterms coming home to roost. FDL et al telling people to stay home, post election telling people democratic leaders are at fault for right tilt in congress.

    But goodbye SS, maybe a bridge to far? Won’t happen.

    @Lolis

    The president and Democrats had the upper hand because the moneyed interests were on their side. So they are basically negotiating even though the moneyed interests would get Republicans in line without any WH deal.

    Nah this is taking the fair observation that corporations have far too much power and influence in american politics and making it into a charicature. Not even the business lobby get to snap their fingers and will legislation into being out of thin air.

    Raising the debt ceiling polls very badly with the american public (of course because they don’t know what it means – but still). It is very unpopular with the teaparty base. And republican congressional leadership thinks they have a shot at winning the political fight. What can Wall Street do? Give their campaign money to democrats over the debt limit? Not likely.

    I’m still keeping faith that Obama and the Dems are going for a rope-a-dope victory here; they did it with government shutdown. Then winning in 2012, and progressive policies are back in the drivers seat.

  78. 78.

    OzoneR

    May 16, 2011 at 12:58 pm

    @Yutsano:

    Like Don Lemon only preferred men ONLY when you realized it.

    No that’s not what I was saying at all

    Not being over the Red Scare couldn’t possibly have anything to do with it, now could it? Nah. It’s just an attitude all Americans are genetically predisposed to. At least that’s your implication here.

    What moves the country left is proving that leftish theories are correct.

    Which would be nice, but as we already established upthread, we’re never going to get the votes in Congress to prove leftish theories correct.

    Oh course the Red Scare had everything to do with it, that was my point.

  79. 79.

    Linnaeus

    May 16, 2011 at 1:00 pm

    @OzoneR:

    yes it could, but then at least we’d know where the people really stand
    …
    and we can get the hell out of here.

    It probably won’t be that easy for most Americans to do that. You need both a country willing to take you and the financial, cultural, and social capital to facilitate the move. It’s going to be a strain for me just to move somewhere new in the same city where I live when have to do so next month. Could I move to another country? Possibly, but it would be considerably more difficult.

    Add to that the distinct possibility of an authoritarian government using its powers to restrict the movement of citizens, and you’ve got a formula for misery.

  80. 80.

    Omnes Omnibus

    May 16, 2011 at 1:03 pm

    @Linnaeus: I am starting to think that as long as OzoneR can say that nothing can be done, he/she will be happy.

  81. 81.

    ornery curmudgeon

    May 16, 2011 at 1:05 pm

    I’m pretty sure this is Ralph Nader’s fault.

  82. 82.

    Yutsano

    May 16, 2011 at 1:07 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: You’ll have to forgive me, and this could indeed be a moral failing, but I’ve never been one to succumb to blind fatalism. Giving up is ALWAYS the easy way out.

  83. 83.

    Original Lee

    May 16, 2011 at 1:07 pm

    Gee, you’d think Geithner was being irrational or something:

    I have written to Congress on previous occasions regarding the importance of timely action to
    increase the debt limit in order to protect the full faith and credit of the United States and avoid catastrophic economic consequences for citizens. I again urge Congress to act to increase the statutory debt limit as soon as possible.

  84. 84.

    Omnes Omnibus

    May 16, 2011 at 1:15 pm

    @Yutsano: Yeah, I don’t really see the point of preemptive surrender either. As anyone who has paid any attention to what I have written on the blog should know, I am fully on board with pragmatic compromises. I just don’t see the point in laying down. When it came to a government shut down, the money boys (who had less at stake in that fight) eventually snapped their fingers and enough of the GOP came running that the shutdown was averted at very little cost to Dem interests. I fail to see why the same thing will not happen here when there is so much more on the line..

  85. 85.

    Dennis SGMM

    May 16, 2011 at 1:19 pm

    Retaking the House convinced more Republicans than will admit it that there’s electoral gold in the batshittiness of the teabaggers’ nihilistic agenda. That there were other factors involved in that election will be overlooked by the R’s because hubris and in-your-face triumphalism are two of their very favorite things.
    If the debt ceiling is reached without a deal the gov will prioritize paying the troops and servicing the debt. Everything else that requires appropriated funds will be vulnerable to being cut or shut down; education, food stamps, Medicare, UI, Head Start, TANF, SCHIP, etc. If the stalemate lasts long enough then the Social Security trust fund will be raided (Again, and heavily) while massive numbers of Federal employees will be furloughed or laid off. Most of the foregoing is what Republicans in general and teahadists in particular are calling for already so what have they got to lose?

  86. 86.

    Original Lee

    May 16, 2011 at 1:20 pm

    @Yutsano: On top of the Ponzi scheme proposed recently where you just keep having money pulled out of your paycheck so Uncle Sam doesn’t have to fund the pension fund appropriately, too. Grrr.

    This stupid game of chicken is already having a ripple effect in the economy. We personally are looking at canceling or cutting back on various items that we normally are able to take care of (in addition to what we’ve already had to do). Explaining the debt crisis to a 7-year-old is something I should have filmed and put on YouTube.

    Kid: The government doesn’t have enough money.
    Me: Right.
    Kid: So they need to borrow more money.
    Me: Right.
    Kid: But they wouldn’t need to borrow money if they had more money coming in.
    Me: Right.
    Kid: But they are telling people they get to send less money to the government.
    Me: Some people, but basically right.
    Kid: And they are saying they want to stop paying people the money they promised to pay.
    Me: Some people, but yeah.
    Kid: I’m the kid, and even I can see that’s stupid.

  87. 87.

    Yutsano

    May 16, 2011 at 1:20 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: We are a nation founded on the notion of compromise. The composition of our Congress was formulated out of a compromise. No doubt Obama will have to give in at least a little somewhere (and there’s certainly enough room in the budget, I’m looking at you ag subsidies!) to get to a deal here. But the possible benefit that will be gained by the Republicans by spiking the economy is far outweighed by the risks of default. And that is something I don’t have an easy answer to.

  88. 88.

    OzoneR

    May 16, 2011 at 1:23 pm

    @Danny:

    But goodbye SS, maybe a bridge to far? Won’t happen.

    no, I don’t think that’ll happen either, because Obama won’t compromise THAT far. but he will compromise, and it’ll probably be better than it should be

  89. 89.

    Jazz Superluminar

    May 16, 2011 at 1:24 pm

    @O^2
    @Yutsano
    Amen to what you’ve said. Sadly I think not many here or elsewhere will agree. I have to go now, stuff to do, but you guy’s keep commenting, please. Ya trully are two people I respect the most around here.

  90. 90.

    OzoneR

    May 16, 2011 at 1:25 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I am starting to think that as long as OzoneR can say that nothing can be done, he/she will be happy.

    when did I say nothing can be done. Things can be done, liberals just won’t like them.

    that’s what happens when you loose

  91. 91.

    Omnes Omnibus

    May 16, 2011 at 1:28 pm

    @Yutsano: I think a deal will be made with face saving cuts for the GOP. I also think OzoneR is full of shit on this topic.

  92. 92.

    SFAW

    May 16, 2011 at 1:30 pm

    I’m pretty sure this is Ralph Nader’s fault.

    Pretty much. (Yeah, I realize you were probably snarking/joking. I’m not.)

    My personal feelings are the people will come around to our side when they’re forced to face the horrors of the other side.

    Spoken like a true Naderite.

    They faced the “horrors” for eight years, and the lasting effect was … ? Oh yeah, two years of Rethugs doing their utmost to destroy a President, followed by an historic election, where the Rethugs gained back a significant amount of power.

    Yeah, I’m exceedingly optimistic that your clever “plan” will work.

  93. 93.

    jim filyaw

    May 16, 2011 at 1:31 pm

    i don’t know who sits on the wapo editorial board, but i assume it reflects the collective mindset of the columnists it publishes. i daresay that their collective center of gravity is the rough equivalent of the staff of fox news. i could think of a lot of names to call them, but ‘liberal’ isn’t one.

  94. 94.

    Yutsano

    May 16, 2011 at 1:33 pm

    @OzoneR:

    when did I say nothing can be done

    Earlier on you said:

    and we can get the hell out of here

    That sounds like a cheese-eating surrender monkey statement to me. This shit is gonna take work that may not even pay off in our lifetimes. That doesn’t mean the work shouldn’t be done.

    @Omnes Omnibus: I hope so. I’m at the top of the layoff list if it comes to that. And I’m a revenue generator for the government as well.

  95. 95.

    OzoneR

    May 16, 2011 at 1:35 pm

    @Yutsano: Which I said in response to someone who said this

    Heightening the contradictions could also result in the populace shifting farther to the right and enabling an authoritarian right-wing government

    Which I don’t necessarily believe will happen. Stop twisting my words around because you don’t like them.

  96. 96.

    fasteddie9318

    May 16, 2011 at 1:35 pm

    @Yutsano:

    We are a nation founded on the notion of compromise.

    And, not to go off on a tangent, this is part of the problem we’re now facing. I hate trying to peer into the crystal ball and divine what the founders were thinking, but the past 2+ years have started to convince me that they had no idea that there would come a day when half the Congress would redefine “compromise” to mean “do whatever the fuck I say or we all die.” The system just isn’t set up to absorb such intransigence without breaking down.

  97. 97.

    OzoneR

    May 16, 2011 at 1:38 pm

    @SFAW:

    They faced the “horrors” for eight years, and the lasting effect was … ?

    No they didn’t, they suffered a minimal amount of “horrors,” namely a war they didn’t like, which, if the public response to Libya is to be believed, has turned the country against wars. Progressive WIN!

    As far as economic policy, Republicans didn’t tamper with the social welfare state, let them tamper with it, and when grandma is forced on the street because she’s not getting SS anymore, then we’ll see if she still thinks Nancy Pelosi is a bitch.

  98. 98.

    Yutsano

    May 16, 2011 at 1:38 pm

    @fasteddie9318: It’s entirely possible the system may indeed have to break down. And maybe the Republicans are trying to hasten that day of reckoning. I just know when that happens things will get very ugly very fast. And no one is going to be safe.

  99. 99.

    OzoneR

    May 16, 2011 at 1:40 pm

    @fasteddie9318:

    And, not to go off on a tangent, this is part of the problem we’re now facing. I hate trying to peer into the crystal ball and divine what the founders were thinking, but the past 2+ years have started to convince me that they had no idea that there would come a day when half the Congress would redefine “compromise” to mean “do whatever the fuck I say or we all die.” The system just isn’t set up to absorb such intransigence without breaking down.

    of course it isn’t. Our system of democracy has failed. It’s just no one really wants to face up to it.

    This whole concept of “we don’t negotiate with hostage takers” is stupid, because we do negotiate with hostage takers and we do negotiate with terrorists, when people’s lives are on the line.

  100. 100.

    SFAW

    May 16, 2011 at 1:41 pm

    have started to convince me that they had no idea that there would come a day when half the Congress would redefine “compromise” to mean “do whatever the fuck I say or we all die.”

    I keep hoping someone with a loud enough “voice” will continually beat the drum of the Rethugs being anti-American, traitorous, schmucks bent on the destruction of the America that a bunch of us remember fondly. And, no, I’m not especially old, and no, my memory is not encumbered by rose-colored specs.

    I’m getting accustomed to the disappointment, though.

  101. 101.

    SFAW

    May 16, 2011 at 1:46 pm

    No they didn’t, they suffered a minimal amount of “horrors,” namely a war they didn’t like, which, if the public response to Libya is to be believed, has turned the country against wars. Progressive WIN!

    Spare me. Or is looting and pillaging the SS Trust Fund (or similar) the only thing that you classify as a “horror”?

    Republicans didn’t tamper with the social welfare state,

    Whatever that is.

    and when grandma is forced on the street because she’s not getting SS anymore, then we’ll see if she still thinks Nancy Pelosi is a bitch.

    You’re dreaming. As I said: spoken like a true Naderite.

  102. 102.

    OzoneR

    May 16, 2011 at 1:48 pm

    @SFAW:

    I keep hoping someone with a loud enough “voice” will continually beat the drum of the Rethugs being anti-American, traitorous, schmucks bent on the destruction of the America that a bunch of us remember fondly.

    what America is that? The one where we put Japanese people in internment camps? Forced black people to the back of the bus? Forced women to have abortions in back alleys? Idolized Archie Bunker?

    What America do you remember fondly?

  103. 103.

    Dennis SGMM

    May 16, 2011 at 1:50 pm

    @Yutsano:

    It’s entirely possible the system may indeed have to break down.

    The system will break down and that will set off history’s greatest round of blaming. In the end, nothing will change except that the majority of us will learn to properly season Soylent Green. The breakdown of the two-party system is inherent in the two-party system; once one of the parties discovers that it’s easier to destroy the other party than to actually govern then it’s game over, man.

  104. 104.

    OzoneR

    May 16, 2011 at 1:52 pm

    @Dennis SGMM:

    once one of the parties discovers that it’s easier to destroy the other party than to actually govern then it’s game over, man.

    Hasn’t this ALREADY happened?

  105. 105.

    Maude

    May 16, 2011 at 1:55 pm

    @Yutsano:
    I read last week in the news that Social Security is off the table for the debt ceiling negotiations.
    I can’t tell you how much I despise the Repubs for this. As far as I know, the US has never defaulted and to have the prospect of default even hinted at is outrageous.
    The next time someone whines at you that you have job security cause you work for the gubmint, just remind them of the debt ceiling not being raised.

  106. 106.

    TenguPhule

    May 16, 2011 at 1:58 pm

    The perfect solution is to shoot the Republican national party members, then bill the families for the bullets.

  107. 107.

    Omnes Omnibus

    May 16, 2011 at 1:58 pm

    @OzoneR:
    @OzoneR:

    Assuming for a moment that you are correct, shouldn’t just be rooting for the whole thing to blow up so we can start over? In which case, why would we compromise with the GOP on anything? Your logic is inconsistent, unless your logic is that whatever any Democrat does is wrong.

  108. 108.

    Yutsano

    May 16, 2011 at 1:59 pm

    @Maude: Well inasmuch as this conversation has been fun, I still as of today am still working, so I guess I’d better get off to it. I’ll catch up on things when I get home however.

  109. 109.

    Dennis SGMM

    May 16, 2011 at 2:00 pm

    @OzoneR:
    That was my point; that the breakdown was inevitable because we’ve ceded all of our political aspirations to two parties and two parties only. It’s like having a piano with two keys.

  110. 110.

    SFAW

    May 16, 2011 at 2:02 pm

    what America is that? The one where we put Japanese people in internment camps? Forced black people to the back of the bus? Forced women to have abortions in back alleys? Idolized Archie Bunker?

    Wait, let me get my fainting couch! Oh, swooooon!!!

    You want perfection, then emigrate to Utopia.

    Let’s see:
    Internment camps: Last in 1945
    Back of the bus: Theoretically fixed in 1954
    Abortions: Theoretically fixed in 1973
    Idolized Archie Bunker: never happened, smartass

    Good job with the straw men, though.

    What America do you remember fondly?

    One where the Party in power – whether de jure or de facto – was not actively trying to destroy the country “of the people”, was not actively trying to make it an only-rich-people-or-corporations-get-to-reap-benefits kinda place.

    Oh, and your cute little comment about the Iraq War: give me a fucking break. I have no idea if you are old enough to remember Vietnam – maybe I don’t even care, not sure – but its effect was significantly worse on both countries than Iraq’s was. Progressives WIN!!!

  111. 111.

    tedmills

    May 16, 2011 at 2:30 pm

    Been blasting this song all last week on the drive to work. So many good quotes, ah!
    “They’re so tired of shooting protest singers that they hardly mention us.”

  112. 112.

    OzoneR

    May 16, 2011 at 2:34 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    shouldn’t just be rooting for the whole thing to blow up so we can start over? In which case, why would we compromise with the GOP on anything?

    the economy blowing up is different than Social Security being cut.

  113. 113.

    Tom65

    May 16, 2011 at 2:38 pm

    When the fuck did Fred Hiatt become a liberal?

  114. 114.

    OzoneR

    May 16, 2011 at 2:42 pm

    @Dennis SGMM:

    that the breakdown was inevitable because we’ve ceded all of our political aspirations to two parties and two parties only. It’s like having a piano with two keys.

    Every democracy is essentially a two-party system. The only thing that differs elsewhere is whether or not they’re called “parties” or “coalitions”

  115. 115.

    brendancalling

    May 16, 2011 at 3:20 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I really think that I need to be presented with a gigantic sack of gold coins, but that’s not going to happen either.

  116. 116.

    brendancalling

    May 16, 2011 at 3:31 pm

    @SFAW:

    you might wanna revisit the “internment camps last seen in 1945” part.

  117. 117.

    Danny

    May 16, 2011 at 3:36 pm

    @SFAW:

    I keep hoping someone with a loud enough “voice” will continually beat the drum of the Rethugs being anti-American, traitorous, schmucks bent on the destruction of the America that a bunch of us remember fondly. And, no, I’m not especially old, and no, my memory is not encumbered by rose-colored specs.

    Your voice is loud enough, keep beating the drum. But it can’t be – and hasn’t ever been – the president (of either party) doing that.

  118. 118.

    SFAW

    May 16, 2011 at 3:51 pm

    you might wanna revisit the “internment camps last seen in 1945” part.

    Thanks for the link, wasn’t aware of that. However … there’s a difference (to me, at least) between interning citizens and what ICE appears to be doing.

    Your voice is loud enough, keep beating the drum.

    No, it’s not, and it won’t be unless and until I have a broadcast platform capable of reaching XX millions. (And, no, blogging ain’t that platform. Even if it were, not sure I’d be up to the challenge.)

  119. 119.

    Danny

    May 16, 2011 at 4:02 pm

    @SFAW:

    No, it’s not, and it won’t be unless and until I have a broadcast platform capable of reaching XX millions. (And, no, blogging ain’t that platform. Even if it were, not sure I’d be up to the challenge.)

    Surrender monkey. Man up :)

  120. 120.

    SFAW

    May 16, 2011 at 4:11 pm

    Surrender monkey.

    At least I’m not eating cheese when I’m doing it.

    ETA: Or, as some guy once said, “A man’s got to know his limitations.”

  121. 121.

    Marc McKenzie

    May 16, 2011 at 9:35 pm

    @fasteddie9318: It’s okay to ask, but….you’ve gotta realize that you’re playing a “mugg’s game”.

    In other words, no matter what, they’ll still scream that it’s all Obama’s fault, even though it’s the Repubs being the douches here.

    (And they’ll call you an Obot if you point this out, but hey, what else is new?)

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