Unlurking for a moment.
Oh, look. Everyone is freaking out about Israel. That’s new and exciting!
Back to lurking.
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Come for the politics, stay for the snark.
We are aware of all internet traditions.
Reality always lies in wait for … Democrats.
We still have time to mess this up!
Many life forms that would benefit from greater intelligence, sadly, do not have it.
Anyone who bans teaching American history has no right to shape America’s future.
Trump should be leading, not lying.
The republican caucus is covering themselves with something, and it is not glory.
Come on, media. you have one job. start doing it.
Jack Smith: “Why did you start campaigning in the middle of my investigation?!”
Not all heroes wear capes.
Impressively dumb. Congratulations.
A democracy can’t function when people can’t distinguish facts from lies.
Not loving this new fraud based economy.
I’ve spoken to my cat about this, but it doesn’t seem to do any good.
Second rate reporter says what?
If ‘weird’ was the finish line, they ran through the tape and kept running.
My years-long effort to drive family and friends away has really paid off this year.
Jesus watching the most hateful people claiming to be his followers
I have other things to bitch about but those will have to wait.
Optimism opens the door to great things.
When your entire life is steeped in white supremacy, equality feels like discrimination.
We need to vote them all out and restore sane Democratic government.
The current Supreme Court is a dangerous, rogue court.
Wow, I can’t imagine what it was like to comment in morse code.
kdaug
Why should I care about Israel?
Comrade Mary
And, according to Charles at LGF, they’re wrong.
Quoting the President’s actual words — how the fuck does that work?
EDIT: Fuck you, WordPress. I ain’t changing the code now.
Everything below this is a quote from LGF.
*************************************************
In three short paragraphs about President Obama’s speech this morning, the Associated Press warps the story beyond recognition: Obama says Palestine must be based in 1967 borders.
Here’s the exact quote from Obama’s speech:
Note: he didn’t say “1967 borders,” he didn’t “side with the Palestinians,” and he absolutely did still insist on mutually agreed swaps and secure borders for both countries. It’s nothing but a re-wording of the same position the US has taken for many years.
And the AP’s first sentence is completely false: “…based on the borders that existed before the 1967 Middle East war.”
When people refer to the “1967 lines” they’re always talking about the post-war armistice lines. Whoever wrote this sentence needs to have their journalism examined.
handy
@kdaug:
Exactly. Who cares if J. Dawg is
lurkingtrolling his own blog. Like that’s news?Cris (without an H)
What is that thing cleek always says about Israel again?
PeakVT
Has Obama pissed off the Israel-firsters? Good for him.
stuckinred
@kdaug: Cuz they might call your young butt back up to fight for em!
Hunter Gathers
I would say that Obama ‘threw Israel under the bus’, but Mittens beat me to it.
MikeJ
Sasquatch Isreal!
stuckinred
”
Reacting to Obama’s speech, Benjamin Netanyahu rejected a full withdrawal from the West Bank, saying the 1967 lines were “indefensible” and would leave major Jewish settlements outside Israel. Netanyahu rejects any pullout from east Jerusalem.
Netanyahu heads to the White House on Friday and said he would seek clarifications.
Behind the rhetoric, though, was the possibility of finding common ground. Obama said he would support agreed-upon territorial swaps between the Israel and the Palestinians, leaving the door open for Israel to retain major West Bank settlements, where the vast majority of its nearly 300,000 Jewish settlers live.”
kdaug
@stuckinred: Not me. Mid-40s, no kids – I’m not the droid they’re looking for
Violet
Caught about five minutes of some local wingnut talk show host on the radio and he was practically crowing with delight”: “So, rich Jews, how do you feel now about donating all that money to Obama?” No I am not making that up. That’s what he said.
khead
Sooo….
Annie Jacobsen claims it was a Russian spy plane full of mutant kids that landed in Roswell.
I’m really surprised the plane wasn’t full of terrorists.
stuckinred
@kdaug: Not as lean but still as mean! :)
cleek
Is! Ra! El!
kdaug
@stuckinred: Twice as mean, sir. Twice.
stuckinred
@kdaug: Sir! E-4. . .twice!
Raenelle
Is there any way we can blame the Arab-Israeli conflict on Rosie?
stuckinred
@Raenelle:
Oh, Rosie, oh, girl
Oh, Rosie, oh, girl
Steal away, now, steal away
Steal away, baby, steal away
Little Robert Anthony wants to come and play
A-why don’tcha come with me, baby, steal away
All right, all right
Cacti
Does this mean Israel will punish us and stop taking our military subsidies?
pragmatism
only glennnnnn beck can save israel now. palin can be the tonto to his lone ranger.
kdaug
Srsly – all this bullshit boo-hoo about the debt, but we have to go around the world sticking our fingers in dykes? (Shut up, you know what I mean).
When can we fucking wash our hands of this shit? Why is this our problem?
Keith G
I am not sure what the polling data is, but aside from a few specific locations and that slice of the population that are evangelical end timers, I do not see a ground swell of concern in this country about what happens to Israel in this context.
And…demographic changes in America will be even less fortunate for the Jewish state.
Joseph Nobles
@Comrade Mary: “When people refer to the “1967 lines” they’re always talking about the post-war armistice lines. Whoever wrote this sentence needs to have their journalism examined.”
I’m not seeing this. I’m seeing people refer to the “1967 lines”, they mean the lines right before the 6 Day War. I’m trying to get this straight, so if you could provide a link, I’d appreciate it greatly.
Omnes Omnibus
@kdaug: As long as we are dependent on oil, things that go on in the Middle East will be very important to us.
Cat Lady
@kdaug:
Who will rid us of this meddlesome country?
Mnemosyne
@stuckinred:
Gosh, Bibi, maybe that’s why people have been telling you for years that continuing to build illegal settlements was a really bad idea since it would leave the settlers high and dry in case of two-state solution.
Sorry, but I have no sympathy for the people who are upset because they might have to give their stolen land back.
Ash Can
So Obama threw Israel under the bus just in time for Judgment Day on Saturday? If I didn’t know better, I’d swear Obama was just fucking with the wacko fundies’ heads. Just because he can.
JonF
Obama makes benign statement. Wingnuts howl. People ignore them. Press moves on. Rinse. Repeat.
Mnemosyne
@kdaug:
Because they buy billions of dollars in arms from US defense contractors, and the contractors don’t want to lose that income.
Linda Featheringill
I listened to the speech and found the segment about the Israelis and the Palestinians to be dull and boring and blah, blah, blah.
But then I saw some of the excitement erupting and considered the possibility that the last part of the speech wasn’t directed at me.
I did find the talk about economic help for new democracies interesting, though.
Omnes Omnibus
Strauss-Kahn got bail and house arrest.
General Stuck
After Obama so very deceitfully threw Jerome Corsi under the birther bus, then forcing our proud hetero soldiers into ghey foxholes, is anyone really surprised that Israel is next. Logic people, wingnut logic.
I mean, never mind that killing Bin Laden thingy. Big fluke, he waz over ruled by white aides. This was the master plan all along. The dude is all scary Muslim, all over again.
MY SHARIA!! give it up give it up
Ahasuerus
@Joseph Nobles: The New York Times article on this seems to think this phrase means pre-1967 lines. The article emphasizes this by claiming “A senior administration official said that Mr. Obama’s advisers remained deeply divided over whether he should formally endorse Israel’s pre-1967 borders as the starting point for negotiations over a Palestinian state.” No attribution, of course. So Mr. Johnson may be right. Or not. YMMV.
The Moar You Know
@kdaug: Right there with you. I’m done listening to them and just wish they’d get on with the genocide they’ve all got a boner for.
General Stuck
Cool, Cole rolls a live Israel/Palestinian issue grenade out into the comment section of his blog, then ducks back in for lurking.
handy
Wingnut criticizes other wingnut from the Not-So-Right, hilarity ensues, wingnut walks it all back.
gex
@General Stuck: He’s former military. He knows you duck and cover once the grenade has been thrown.
Ash Can
@handy: What a weenie. Stick a fork in Gingrich, he’s done.
Cacti
@handy:
The winning strategy for any Newt opponent has always been to stand back and wait for him to self-destruct.
kdaug
@Mnemosyne: Yeah, I think that’s a ding. Oil and arms.
Guess it’s the selectivity that gets to me – not Rwanda or Darfur, thus excluding slaughter as motivation.
But if not arms trade, why Israel? No oil. Pretty capable of making their own plinkers. Looks from here that it’s gotta be the MIC.
So we keep circling the drain for Lockheed and Raytheon?
Villago Delenda Est
@The Moar You Know:
Regrettably, it does come down to precisely that.
The state of Israel proves Nietzsche’s point about fighting the monster.
Joseph Nobles
@Ahasuerus: Thanks.
Glenn Beck ripped up a copy of Bush’s 2004 letter to Sharon, saying that’s what Obama had done. But Bush said this:
And Obama said this:
That’s saying the same thing. It’s going to the same place.
trollhattan
Dogs, dogs, dogs, in The Big Picture. I’m stupified at pic #2.
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2011/05/dogs_in_the_news.html
The Moar You Know
@handy: Gingrich, Gutless Pansy (R).
He’s working hard for the title, we should address him as such.
Linda Featheringill
@Villago Delenda Est:
This one?
“He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”
gex
@kdaug: As an aside, every single person I know who complains about government spending works for Lockheed.
The Moar You Know
@Villago Delenda Est: It will destroy them. They rolled every awful thing that England did in taking over and then becoming America into a few years.
Used acts of terrorism on existing power structures? Check.
Wiped out indigenous people and stole their land? Check.
Instituted psychotically paranoid national security state to defend against terrorists? Check.
It took us 225 years to do that. It’s taken them 44. No society can survive that.
My only issue with your comment is that I don’t find the ensuing bloodbath to be particularly regrettable. Too many people want it.
Villago Delenda Est
Newt:
As you all know, that “right wing social engineering” was said by the evil Newt from the episode with the transporter accident.
gex
@The Moar You Know: There *will* be children and other innocents slaughtered. People who don’t want this fight. So I guess I find it regrettable, but seemingly inevitable.
Villago Delenda Est
@Linda Featheringill:
Bingo. There are Israelis who seem to have no problem with the concept of making all the land currently controlled by Israel Palestinienrein.
ciotog
A Likud guy is threatening, in the NY Times no less, to annex the West Bank:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/19/opinion/19Danon.html?_r=1&ref=opinion
The right to do this would be based on the Palestinians’ asking for recognition of statehood in the UN, which supposedly violates the Oslo Accords. Of course, building settlements in occupied areas violates international law, but that’s no big deal.
OzoneR
@Mnemosyne:
The goal was to make sure there would never be a two-state solution. Sorry, can’t do it, the settlements are there now.
eemom
[yawn]
piratedan
unka Rupert is being himself again…..
http://current.com/news/93234051_current-tv-italia-off-the-air-due-to-murdochs-fear-of-olbermann.htm
Dennis SGMM
Mel Brooks foresaw the whole thing.
kdaug
@gex: Gah, don’t get me started. All my right wing relatives who complain about the size of government are Feds (MIL/CDC/GSA).
If cognitive dissidence was cognitive dissonance, and their heads vibrated until it [Insert “Scanners” clip], I’d be happy to wear an apron.
Villago Delenda Est
@OzoneR:
What? You mean the Likud has been negotiating in bad faith for decades?
ZOMG, the attack of the vapors I have right now is just overwhelming…
Bill Arnold
Yes. It is very difficult for non-Israelis to understand Israeli politics.
What the Israeli right (in particular) doesn’t realize is that American politics are not in any way simple either, just spackled with pancake makeup of faux dumbness.
I have one big difficulty understanding Danny Dannon’s piece. It so invites comparisons with Bantustans that it must have been deliberate but I have no clue why this was done.
cat48
Presidents have always used the 1967 borders but never, never has a president said it out loud before! That’s why all of wingnuttery is upset. Sweet Jesus!
Amanda in the South Bay
@Mnemosyne:
Yeah, the settlers are really the major problem. I have no problem with Israel making a slight modification of the pre-6 Day War boundaries*, based on national security concerns-but the West Bank settlements just fuck everything up. I’d go so far as to also insist on a divided Jerusalem, but I have a fear that there’s too many Israeli’s in East Jerusalem.
*Meh, I also don’t have a problem with Israel holding onto the Golan either
gex
@kdaug: My brother-out-law (can’t get married, too gay) works for Lockheed and erupted in rage when Obama said the federal government would help California maintain the state parks.
This one is the best though: My father is a Chinese immigrant. He went to two state schools to get his degrees. He then went directly into defense work. When he retired, and signed up for social security, he came back from the office complaining about “all those foreigners” there to “take his money”. Now, as my parents are divorcing my mom discovered he has been hiding 2/3 of some of their outside income from the IRS. When I spoke with him about that he said, “the government would just waste it.” To which I said, yeah, by educating and employing Chinese immigrants. Of course, like any fiscal conservative, the money he gets from the government is okay.
Kyle
@cat48:
What next – someone will speak the worst-kept secret in the Middle East, that Israel has hundreds of nuclear weapons. Yet their possession of such, and refusal to sign the Non-Proliferation Treaty is swept under the rug, when any other country in the same situation is and would be diplomatically pressured relentlessly.
Roger Moore
@Villago Delenda Est:
That’s “The Enemy Within”, thank you very much. Any serious Trekkie would know that.
Lumpy
I’m getting all kinds of weird HTML code underneath your header. I don’t know if this is a problem with your banner ad, or where it’s coming from. It’s been like this for a few weeks, so it makes me think you might be unaware (sorry if you already are).
Screenshot here:
http://imageshack.us/m/121/1782/screenshotomt.png
Mac running Safari 5.0.5
Svensker
@eemom:
I’m sure there’ll be some smashed Pal babies soon so you won’t be bored long.
Ian
I for one am freaking out about Madagascar.
chopper
and those anti-israel jew-haters at the ADL are praising the speech. i’m sure palin and romney, of course, are far more jewy than those guys.
eemom
@Svensker:
I do hope that’s in jest. Otherwise, I’ll have to conclude that you’re as much of an asshole as Corner Stoned.
danimal
When do we get to the part where everyone accuses each other of being anti-Semites? It’s my favorite part about Israel posts.
chopper
@Amanda in the South Bay:
that was the whole point of the settlements. push off any real two state solution for as long as possible, and meanwhile create areas that were occupied long enough that they would have to be roped in to israel when demographic changes force a two-state deal. of course, the settlements are strategically located near water resources and the like.
the idea that israel would now have to give up other land to the palestinians in exchange for those spots queers the whole idea. netanyahu must be having a fuckin epic tantrum.
maya
Beni will just be uping his demand for next year’s US welfare check from $3 billion to $ 6 billion plus an additional 500 ton cluster bomb salve. I wonder how that will play in the Teabarrio?
Ahasuerus
@Lumpy: OS X 10.5.8, Safari 5.05 here, no such problems. Are you running any odd add-ins? You might also want to try flushing your browser cache (may be a bit of stale javascript stuck in the plumbing).
Suffern ACE
I guess if I had to give a speech of US foreign policy in the ME, it would have to have an Israel-Palestine component, but honestly, since neither side is about to sit down and negotiate in good or bad faith any time soon I probably would have left it out…
Villago Delenda Est
@Roger Moore:
Yeah, but do you think for a minute that Newt (who I thought I indicated was speaking the line) would ‘fess up to being a Trekkie?
Also, I was going for the Shatner walking back his comments at the Trek convention skit on SNL vibe :P
Lumpy
@Ahasuerus:
Hmm, resetting Safari seemed to fix it. Thank you. Weird, since I do a reset every day, basically. Sorry to bother everybody with my duh!
El Cid
The fact that Obama even mentioned the term “1967” in connection with the topic of borders — forget whatever context in which it was placed — would make the pro-militarists re. Israel absolutely freak.
One of their bedrock claims for years is that the USA was not only never going to push for the 1949 Armistice borders (i.e., pre-1967 war), but was dedicated enough to blocking such a move that it would never use such a term as 1967.
It was always “defensible borders” or other vague terms favorable to Israeli power.
The moment I just heard what even sounded like Obama was endorsing a return to 1967 borders with some swaps of this or that, I knew that the crazy militarist shit-storm would follow beginning with the bipartisan pro-militarists-on-Israel leaders of Congress.
El Cid
@ciotog: The territories are universally recognized as illegally occupied, and the UN in general (never specific due to the US’ blocking [meaning dispute over the meaning of, say, 242]) has continually endorsed the legitimacy of the Palestinian claims for state-hood.
So, outside the fact that it’s quite possible that not much might be done if Israel were to do that — maybe, but also possibly outraged this that and the other — it’s a bit difficult to justify the notion that you get to convert your illegal occupation of lands into your own country in order to stop the people whose lands you are illegally occupying from being recognized as an independent nation by the only international body capable of doing so which has already declared the general legitimacy of that occupied people to do so.
gnomedad
Kind of like Groundhog Day?
El Cid
By the way, I’m so god-damned sick of this bullshit about Palestinian this or that being ‘committed to Israel’s destruction.’
Oh yeah?
And, how do such declarations threaten the survival of Israel? I mean, it’s not nice to say that when something like that is said, and any time it’s desired you can of course just make it up anyway and say a Palestinian said it.
And it doesn’t say much for the likelihood of this or that armed group stopping attacks on Israeli civilians. (Don’t ask for vice-versa, as that’s just beyond the pale.)
But, really?
Palestinians threaten the survival of Israel because some of them scream about its destruction?
Do such statements build the so-and-so brigades of Gaza some nuclear weapons?
Would a simultaneous shout for the destruction of Israel by every single Palestinian summon up some magic army that would defeat the most heavily advanced and effective armed forces in the region?
One whose every operation gets backed by the US?
What the fuck? What sort of nonsense have people been trained to listen to?
I mean, talk about how the Palestinian group this or that still is a danger to Israeli civilians because of these facts and those statements.
But god-damn, that people can go on the TV box or radio and not be laughed off when someone moans about how some Palestinian(s) threaten the survival of Israel, it’s just another fucking ridiculous embarrassment in the joke we call foreign policy discussions.
eemom
@El Cid:
I agree. It really is ridiculous to talk about an “existential” threat to Israel at this point. Not so much before 1973, perhaps, but we don’t live in that world anymore.
I heard the Hamas foreign minister on NPR the other day answering that question about the Hamas “charter.” Giving his comments their most generous interpretation, he seemed to acknowledge that they’ve moved on from that and that they’re willing to accept Israel within the 1967 borders. OTOH he also insisted on the right of return, which would destroy Israel as a Jewish state.
I agree about the settlements, also.
The bottom line is, this is an eternally fucked up situation that is only moving deeper into fucked upedness, with no end in sight. IOW, it is just like everything else.
hamletta
I am loving The Final Edition.
The EIC is Tony Hendra, who you all remember as Spinal Tap’s cricket-bat-wielding manager, Ian Faith. He was also editor of the late, great SPY magazine. Contributing editors include the guys behind Landover Baptist and Betty Bowers, America’s Best Christian.
Their feed is a mess, as is their site, but with such brilliant satirists, I think they’ll go far.
The Onion is genius, and yay for them! But you can’t get too much satire in these interesting times.
General Stuck
@eemom:
An existential threat, no, Hamas does not present that to Israel, not militarily, but until they actually stop firing every weapon they can get their hands on at Israel, then there is really no reason for Israel to concede anything. Even if those weapons are mostly meager. No state on earth, including the US, or any one, is going to tolerate a neighbor lobbing home made missiles into it’s neighborhoods. Or with the threat of suicide bombers making their way around defenses to blow shit up. A “peace” agreement is only possible if all sides agree to quit fighting each other, and existential or not, it must be complete, at least in good faith.
But as long as Hamas can keep Israelis electing thug likudites and over reacting from any sort of attack, then that is actually a long term battle plan that IS existential. It destroys the soul of the nation of Israel, and it’s citizens, to continue behaving in brutal and inhumane ways. If you ask any Hamas member, I bet they will tell you this is their long game.
Now maybe my comment will stir this dead as Franco blog to life. And then I am back to lurking.
mike in dc
I think the border-crossing stuff the other day probably put the settlers and Likudniks into a state of mild panic. If the Palestinians ever just set aside suicide bombing and rocket attacks, and just focused on civil disobedience(including stuff like taking down fencing and marching to security checkpoints), to the point of risking being shot, they could do their cause a lot more good than 10 years of terrorism ever could.
John Weiss
How else can the mess in the ME be solved, if not PBO’s suggestion?
If the Israelis need more land, they should consult Dutch engineers and give the “Palestinians” some room.
eemom
@General Stuck:
nah, looks like it’s only cheap shooters like Stoned and Sven that have any interest in the subject — and once they’ve shot their wads, they’re nowhere to be found.
Unless, of course, they’ve flown to Gaza to minister to the “Pals”, in whose plight they are so deeply invested.
El Cid
@General Stuck: Well, fuck, I guess you could count the leveling of Gaza and blowing the shit out of hundreds of non-Hamas Gazans with the US not giving the slightest whiff of a shit and the Israelis conducting their own joke ‘inquiry’ as just as much evidence that Israel should clearly not have the slightest bit of decision-making in the matter.
Hell, it’s not like one single Israeli life would be worth a tiny molecule more than any Palestinian life.
Unfortunately, Israel has such power, and there’s no other power able or interested in enforcing the removal of Israeli forces and paramilitary settlers from the illegally occupied territories.
So as long as Hamas allows the Israeli militarist establishment to continue taking every single tiny bit of the West Bank and East Jerusalem they want, and keeping the starving (literally, protein-deficient) Gaza hellhole rotting, and slicing up the West Bank with whatever walls and farm theft and barrier-guarded roads and checkpoints they feel will help make sure that there is only the merest joke of a Palestinian community and economy, then Hamas retains its ability to serve Israel. Pffft.
It’s not like there’s any reason for the Israeli power structure not to do this, and do so right up until it’s gotten everything it wants from the occupied territories and has disempowered the remainders as it prefers. And at that point it will be an ideal time to decide the factors are right for Palestinian independence.
Before then, Hamas, or whoever, or whatever, will still be a great reason to find no worthy partner with whom to negotiate.
Everyone can relax, though, because the Palestinian ‘state’ which might be formed isn’t in any sane way going to be ‘viable’ or in control of their own territories or borders or airspace, and probably not a whole lot of trade in and out, and so on and so forth.
But their independence will allow Israel & the US establishment to break their arms patting themselves on the back, and other Arab and Muslim states a great excuse to stop pretending to give a shit, and the Palestinians can go back to the status preferred for them — rotting.
Then again, I’m an optimist.
Corner Stone
Damn you Omnes.
Corner Stone
@El Cid:
Bullshit El Cid. eemom herself has told us all here that if supplies were needed in Gaza then people could submit them through the normalized Israeli paperwork and get that sustenance delivered asap.
Now, are we supposed to believe a bomb thrower like you who tells us Israel is starving an entire population, or a voice of calm, dispassionate reason like eemom?
eemom
@El Cid:
I think it would be helpful if this point were acknowledged — i.e., that the Palestinians have been used as pawns by “other Arab and Muslim” states that really don’t give a shit about them, but use them as an excuse to perpetuate hatred against Israel.
I would also like some acknowledgment of the part the 800 pound invisible gorilla, Iran, has played in all of this, and which, again, has nothing to do with concern for the Palestinians.
eemom
@Corner Stone:
Go fuck yourself, asshole.
People who are not assholes are actually trying to discuss something.
Corner Stone
@eemom: What’s with the vitriol? I’m on your side here. It’s clear El Cid is lying when he says the Israelis are starving an entire population to death.
I’ve always believed you when you said that people trying to deliver boat loads of food and aid supplies to Gaza were just doing it to cause trouble for the Israelis, and they got what they deserved.
Svensker
@General Stuck:
.
I don’t think “neighbor” is exactly the right term for the Palestinian ghettos.
Svensker
@El Cid:
What you said
El Cid
Also, it’s total bullshit to label these sorts of Israeli policies as “Likud”, because the aggressive expansion of settlements, for example, happened even faster under Labor.
Leveling Gaza was Kadima, not Likud, supposedly a ‘center’ coalition. But at least they made sure to wrap up the devastation before that Kenyan Muslim was sworn into the White House.
This isn’t a party divide thing. Except for the nice racial and fascist (criticisms made in Israel, not by me) flavor added by such types as Avigdor L., it’s a time in which the Palestinians appear more able to push an agenda, not less.
Not least of which because the release of the Palestinian negotiation documents showed what pathetic and duplicitous beggars the supposed Palestinian ‘leadership’ was in continually vowing to accept any ridiculous demand asked of it, no matter what was said to the population as to their goals. At least it’s not quite the US-funded proxy it once was.
Labor doesn’t really exist (the strongest attempt at revival right now is by a US Jewish venture capitalist), but I’m sure if they were in power they would remain committed to a negotiated two state solution forever. By coincidence it would not anytime soon, for a variety of changing factors, and not in any fashion the Israeli establishment doesn’t care for.
Unless now the term “Likudnik” is to be used for any Israeli politician other than Israeli Arabs.
The latter of whom, given the acceleration of the reconstruction of Israel as an exclusively state-religion dominated society rather than some secular democracy, may finish having meaningful political rights removed fairly soon.
Even the craven Palestinian leadership, however, have at least changed the game by moving right along and getting international recognition of state-hood without first groveling for Israel and the US to deem them worthy.
I wish I could, well, wish the Palestinian thug class away, but that’s not usually how things work in negotiations.
The peace agreements and independence of Southern Sudan was achieved via negotiation with Omar Al-Bashir, so I don’t want to hear any of this bullshit about how you can’t negotiate with violent partners. I don’t know how that independence will work out, but to get the mass slaughterer of the South (incl Darfur) to agree to the independence of the oil-producing region by carrot & stick without any insane attempt at military intervention, such an approach seems to have a good bit of empirical weight behind it.
Will the new move to just go straight to recognition go anywhere? It already has, but if that means to a ‘viable’ state, I kind of think that the ‘viable’ part is a bit high of a standard. Except I guess the term can be seen as really theoretical.
Still, though, on a practical level, it’s probably not the best idea to base your entire independence strategy on waiting for the approval of the opposing side.
General Stuck
@eemom:
Actually, besides CS being his usual asshole self, there is really no hope in rationally discussing this topic on liberal blogs, imo. I only entered a comment out of sheer boredom of the moment. It’s the kind of irrationality that keeps more than a few folks here labeling you some kind of pal baby killer, or hater, or some such shit.
I don’t hate Israel, nor the Palestinians, and it is heartbreaking to see both sides controlled by extremists. And even more so, watching Jewish people become barbaric in their behavior at times with a largely sorry org like AIPAC even existing. It is not who they are, and that is my fervent belief, and makes be profoundly sad, as it does the living conditions for Palestinians, especially in Gaza.
Nothing will change until the militant Palestinians adopt the Gandhi model for resistance. And they speak as one people. IMHO
Svensker
@eemom:
Really? Where? El Cid is here making his usual clear and cogent points but otherwise, ain’t nothing.
El Cid
@Corner Stone: I didn’t say they were starving a whole population to death.
Their near total blockade of Gaza yes, indeed, reduced protein intake of children and women (particularly pregnant mothers) to a degree of anemia and stunted growth that it was recognized as a threat of malnutrition by the UN.
Second, it was the Israeli government itself which reformed its blockade of food imports and said it was a refinement, a more precise targeting, of its program.
So don’t give me this horse-shit about how I was “lying” about a clarified term of starvation. Uninformed ass.
I’m pretty sure that if someone blocked off food imports to my family such that our weaker members started suffering protein-deficiency caused anemia, and our children began exhibiting “stunted growth,” people might be okay in using the term “starving”, but, okay, until we started suffering Ethiopian famine style and dropping like Stalin-ringed Ukrainians, it probably wouldn’t be the right term to use.
[Wait — I get it. Sarcasm. I fail.]
General Stuck
@Svensker:
Sure it is smartass. Neighbor is a term for proximity.
Stupid quips like this make it impossible to discuss this issue rationally.
Corner Stone
@El Cid:
Listen. I’ll take a lot of shit, but not this. Don’t call me an uninformed ass on this issue. eemom has quite clearly informed me, repeatedly, that this just isn’t the case.
Why would Israel do this? Where’s the benefit to decreasing the protein intake for a bunch of Palestinian children?
Based on the lengthy discussions eemom and I have had on this issue, it’s quite clear, at least to me, that individuals using the issue of food insecurity wrt Palestinians are just lying. And taking advantage of a sympathetic trigger issue to attempt to goad the Israeli govt into action by doing stunts like delivering boat loads of food and first aid supplies.
El Cid
@eemom: Outside various populations, I wouldn’t say that the Arab governments of the region and farther flung Muslim governments give no shit about the Palestinian issue; I’d feel pretty okay in saying they don’t give much beyond the tiniest shit about the Palestinians.
I’d like to be proven wrong, and that an independent P. state of whatever ‘viability’ wouldn’t just be the signal for those allied governments to declare victory and go, well, where ever, or attend to other matters.
I just don’t yet feel it.
It’s not like that’s new with regard to international situations — we cared desperately for Nicaraguan democracy and freedom until victory, when the 50% plus unemployment rates and crumbling society into chaos suddenly seemed less of a priority.
African nations were outraged at the colonialists’ crimes in fighting their neighbors’ independence, until such time as those nations became independence, at which point it turned out that there were all sorts of reasons why it was not quite time yet to ignore their differences.
Currently we now care deeply, at least rhetorically, for the freedom of Venezuelans. Not quite so much before Chavez, but now we’re really sure we care.
eemom
@El Cid:
There is no more an “Israeli establishment” than there is a “U.S. establishment” (unless you are Sven’s idol Greenwald).
From what I understand — and I don’t pretend to be an expert on Israeli politics — their problem is similar to what we have here in the U.S. Senate — i.e., a minority of crazed fanatics can get their way by controlling just enough minority votes.
El Cid
@Corner Stone: Stop it. Okay. I get it. I missed it. Your point is made.
Corner Stone
I haven’t even started cursing yet. And all this spittle? What am I supposed to do with it now?
eemom
@Corner Stone:
last time, you disgusting pig.
I never said ANYTHING of what you attribute to me. I said what you linked to the last time you raised this subject, about the flotilla incident. For the reasons I’ve already explained ad nauseum, I do not retract those statements.
The only reference there has ever been on this blog from me about “Palestinian babies,” was mockery of your cesspool slanders. The fact that you and your fellow room-temp I.Q. Sven latched onto that as though it were real is not my problem.
El Cid
@eemom: There is an ‘establishment’ in Israel the same way there is here, and the same way there is pretty much anywhere an analysis can be performed of a set of people and institutions which most affect policy, and in particular those which influence them fairly contiguously not just over time but across political changes.
Not uniformly, not monotonously, and not without even major lurches based in actual political changes.
Admittedly people use the term in different ways. To think it has to do with G. Greenwald is shockingly naive, particularly in its use and/or similar terms in decades and decades of scholarly work.
First, whether or not there is something worth calling an ‘establishment’, such as a conjuncture of policies pushed by identifiable individuals and organizations and governing committees and ‘think tank’ groups across what are usually taken to be political divisions, is an empirical question if a term is usefully identified.
If the Tea Parties were to stick around (my god how depressing) for 30 years, it would be pretty easy to note the people and committees who stick around and who appear to drive a lot of its agenda over time.
It would be like fiat declarations that there’s no interesting ‘power structure’ in the US because political leaders are very different. As it turns out, there are very useful definitions of such terms, and they’re much better at explaining the development of such policies even as Social Security than typical limitations to only the politicians and publicly prominent advisers involved.
Turns out there are entire subdivisions of sociology and political science which study just that notion of ‘establishments’ or power coalitions or elites or policymaking networks, as well as forests of history studies focusing on case studies.
People inside and outside Israel who monitor politics and government know the notion: there are things which hold
So, no, it’s not a conspiratorial term and it, like many concepts, precedes Glenn Greenwald. Hell, check it out the next time you read an analysis of the Palestinian power structure or establishment. It’s not like such notions (same word or not) are feared by major media, depending on whom it’s applied to and with what takeaway.
It happens every time you hear an analysis of the power centers within Iran, or Egypt, in which you look at things such as this or that council, and the military (or various military divisions), and certain wealthy interests and companies, and influential whoevers, such as long-time party leaders, or a former ruling family, or mayors or councils of this or that city or city sub-section.
When an inquiry on a particular topic shows that there is coherence across many of whatever power centers are outlined, then that’s one situation; as for another topic, maybe there’s more division.
Yet over longer time periods, it might be the case that political leaders and parties and/or other interests might actually have more coherence than more visible clashes — however important those are — would indicate.
I use it to indicate that certain policies and ideological outlooks are (a) not something nicely placed onto one political party’s or leader’s shelf; (b) the sorts of long-range broad policy interests which are (by evidence) driven by influential networks of people and organizations inside and outside government; and (c) are issues for which there’s very little evidence that fundamental and particularly radically breaking policies will come from a short-term change in political leadership.
It’s not a calculation machine: Someone could always come into power and upset the apple cart. Spill a few apples, or quite a few, or occasionally in history tip the whole thing into the storm drain.
Policies are shaped by far, far more people and governing circles and so on and so forth than one national leader or the senior party leaderships.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@danimal:
i don’t know about you, but if corner stone and eemom want to have angry hate sex, i’d watch, if they do it on web cam, i might even pay a fee.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@Hunter Gathers:
given mitt’s “around the neck” comment, i am suprised he said bus, not train or some such…i also have to admire the craftsmanship of”a first principle of american foreign policy.”
how many firsts do we get?
and is it really we stick up for our friends?
CDWard
Israel is a terrorist state founded by terrorists-Google “King David Hotel”.
Ija
@General Stuck:
Yup, one side should just unilaterally surrender. That’s the only solution that would work. It’s no surprise which side Americans think it should be.
General Stuck
@Ija:
Did Gandhi surrender? Dumb comment, and typical when this topic presents itself on the liberal blogs.
daveNYC
@Kyle: Never really understood the issue with Israel keeping their nukes as an open secret. They’ve not signed the NPT and per Dr. Strangelove, doomsday weapons don’t work if nobody knows about them. Why not just come out and say, “Yeah, we’ve got nukes, but we’re allowed to have them.”