Reader Interactions
260Comments
Comments are closed.
Come for the politics, stay for the snark.
Anyone who bans teaching American history has no right to shape America’s future.
When someone says they “love freedom”, rest assured they don’t mean yours.
Just because you believe it, that doesn’t make it true.
Accountability, motherfuckers.
Despite his magical powers, I don’t think Trump is thinking this through, to be honest.
You can’t attract Republican voters. You can only out organize them.
Perhaps you mistook them for somebody who gives a damn.
Is it irresponsible to speculate? It is irresponsible not to.
Make the republican party small enough to drown in a bathtub.
Within six months Twitter will be fully self-driving.
A thin legal pretext to veneer over their personal religious and political desires
Some judge needs to shut this circus down soon.
I know this must be bad for Joe Biden, I just don’t know how.
Their freedom requires your slavery.
Thanks to your bullshit, we are now under siege.
Reality always lies in wait for … Democrats.
You cannot shame the shameless.
Something needs to be done about our bogus SCOTUS.
Give the craziest people you know everything they want and hope they don’t ask for more? Great plan.
Republican obstruction dressed up as bipartisanship. Again.
They love authoritarianism, but only when they get to be the authoritarians.
Hot air and ill-informed banter
I’d try pessimism, but it probably wouldn’t work.
We are builders in a constant struggle with destroyers. let’s win this.
beltane
Wow. Glenn Greenwald says the President deserves our support and “modest” credit. Maybe the Rapture really did happen.
zzyzx
The funny thing is that most American Jews don’t even feel that way… it’s rapture Xians who want Israel to play a role in their weird fantasy.
arguingwithsignposts
Tornadoes across the midwest. Apparently hit joplin, mo. hard. Yikes.
boss bitch
New Family Guy. Retelling of Return of The Jedi
Punchy
@arguingwithsignposts: I camethisclose to going to chase those storms. My biggest fear is the ginormous hail that comes with those storms and the totalling my car would take…cant justy a trashed car for some blurry pix of a twister thru a smashed windshield.
Yutsano
@beltane: It’s funny cause he did it in the most mealy mouthed and back-handed way possible. He knew if he ripped the President at all it would undermine his central thesis, but his almost reflexive anti-Obama tendencies kept popping up.
PurpleGirl
A related story from Reuters via Steve M:
My comment at No More Mr. Nice Blog:
Ed Koch: … if Republicans nominate a pro-Israel candidate who offers an alternative to recent austere budgetary measures backed by Republicans in Congress.
Yeah, right. I can just see that happening, Ed. Give us a name, Ed. The Republicans are tied with iron chain to austerity and don’t care about the average worker. Then, again, I don’t think since Koch became an of counsel at a big law firm that he really feels or understands economic pain.
Delia
@beltane:
In a perverse sort of way I wish it had. If the Loony Party were suddenly swept away it might be easier to get this country to follow its enlightened self-interest on this issue.
imonlylurking
@@arguingwithsignposts: Minneapolis was hit earlier-1 confirmed dead, lots of downed trees and powerlines. 22K without power and they’re evacuating certain neighborhoods due to a gas leak.
Jewish Steel
@beltane: Hold up there, pardner.
Whew!
MikeJ
@Delia: What makes you think god would want any of them?
My theory is it already did happen. Nobody on our side wanted to go, nobody on their side qualified.
gbear
@arguingwithsignposts: Some neighborhoods in North Minneapolis and the ‘burbs got hit by a tornado this evening too. Lots of trees down and some pretty severe building damage.
eric
@Jewish Steel: save me the time reading it, what does GG believe motivated Obama?
DPirate
The simple fact is that the US would be greatly better off if we would just say “Fuck Israel” and stop returning their calls.
I’d most like to see the Israel money/materiel go to the Palestinians for 20 years. Borders ought to be back where they originally were long before that deadline.
Israel doesn’t even have enough oil to bother with, much less anything else. All it has is Judeo-Christian historical value, and a mythologized place in the conscience of it’s supporters. To me the fact is that non-jewish people supporting Israel is tantamount to professing your faith in Judaism and/or mainstream Christianity.
It’s going to be interesting to watch the new Turkish convoy.
13th Generation
Well, we haven’t seen a Greenwald trolling post in a while, so this should be fun.
Shoemaker-Levy 9
@PurpleGirl:
At most, Obama could lose a few percent of the Jewish vote. The only state where that has even a tiny chance of mattering is Florida, if a situation such 2000 happens again. People like Koch are delusional. American politicians unquestioningly support Israel for strategic reasons, not because the Jewish-American vote is all that important to them.
jl
@Delia: Lord help you me, you might be right. I thought about it.
What would endanger my welfare, and that of my significant others, more? The Loony Party doing their insane twisted version of God’s work? Or them gone and the rest of us can muddle through mammoth earthquakes, floods, plague and war?
Looks like the Loony Party, feeling that getting their Apocalypse going is an important chore God has given them (even though the Bible says it cannot be, even in their beloved Revelations) are working overtime to get the plague and war going anyway.
So, yeah, I will root for Rapture next time some prophecy grabs the headlines.
BTW: We joke about this BS, but this Camper guy operates out of Oakland CA. Heard a local news report that his followers have contributed substantial bucks so their nut leader could take out ads in all sorts of media around the country for this nonsense. Some gave up their life savings.
Can this Camper dude be prosecuted for fraud?
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
Breaking: Glenn Greenwald is a psychic & can read the hearts of men! He has read the President.
Other than the fact that he has talked about the plight of the Palestinians over and over and over again? Apparently, Mr. Greenwald can see past your petty words, straight through to your heart! The power. Oh, the power!
Sigh. Sadly POTUS lives in Real Reality, not Greenwald Reality, and thus has to work within the constraints of existing relationships and international diplomacy. Nothing Obama has said in the past few days fully reflects my hopes and dreams for Israel/Palestine, either, but given that I recognize the reality in which the President functions, I’m willing to acknowledge the steps he’s taken, within the framework he has before him.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@jl:
how are you going to prove that he intended to deceive,all he did was make a prediction. it would be like taking obama’s bracket into your office pool, losing, and then wanting to sue the president.
Delia
@MikeJ:
There’s a really good story somewhere in that premise.
dedc79
greenwald claims that the “lobby” has responded with criticism of obama’s speech but in the same article he notes that abe foxman praised the speech and so did Jeffrey Goldberg. As did many others who in the past have been grouped in with the lobby. Maybe the lobby is not nearly as uniform as greenwald thinks.
stuckinred
Westboro counter-dem sign. “I skipped the rapture for this?”
13th Generation
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther:
Let the hate begin. Look, you may not like his long winded writing, or his firebagerish criticism of Obama, but IMO he has done more to call attention to the erosion of civil liberties in this country than anyone else I can think of.
I know that’s not what this post is about, but I just don’t understand the animosity and contempt. It’s why as lawyers, I would think he and ABL are pretty much coming from the same place, but his criticism of Obama and his policies earns him ridicule and scorn. He is not the enemy.
jl
The once again postponed Rapture is off topic, so my turn to introduce something new, and very important: Shag versus sleep apnea.
Sat May 21 11:55pm EDT
Shaquille O’Neal’s girlfriend schools him on sleep apnea
By Kelly Dwyer
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Shaquille-O-Neal-s-girlfriend-schools-him-on-sle?urn=nba-wp3654
Looks like he did better than in his fights in Vegas.
Also, Kristoff has an interesting column in the NY Times on s * x * t Im * and s*xs*xs*x naughtiness teachings in the Bible. He has a quiz, so you kids can test your knowledge and level of moral corruption and vile rot, right away!
And Kristoff’s column made me realize something. Cole has supported pretty much all kinds of unBiblical sex immorality in this blog, EXCEPT sex between angelic beings and humans. Why that singular omission?
It would be irresponsible not to speculate. What is really going on in the Cole household? Huh?
stuckinred
@13th Generation: That’s a matter of opinion.
MattR
@eric: GG’s argument is that Obama believes solving the Israel/Palestine conflict is in the best interests of the United States (or more specifically, that allowing it to continue to fester is harmful to US interests)
@arguingwithsignposts: If the argument was “done more to fight civil liberties abuses” then I would agree with you, but since it was “done more to bring attention to civil liberties abuses” I think that Glenn definitely belongs in the conversation
arguingwithsignposts
@13th Generation: I’ll see your glennzilla and raise you an aclu, or someone who’s actually argued a fucking case re: civil liberties before a court in the last few years. Seriously, that is just weapons-grade stupid.
13th Generation
@arguingwithsignposts:
Stupid? Why? Did you argue against the ACLU? Please just tell me why GG is so distasteful, other than his criticism of Obama and his continuation of Bush era policies.
Bill Arnold
Given the stage-whisper campaigning by the Israeli right against Obama’s 2008 election and likely campaigning against his 2012 reelection, is it now appropriate to meddle (with plausible deniability where possible) in Israeli politics? Or at least to rhetorically suggest this as a possibility?
(IMO Israel would not survive in its current form (even though nuclear armed) if it became a pariah state, which would happen if e.g. Israel annexed all the parts of the west bank not inhabited by Palestinian Arabs, as suggested/threatened in an odd op-ed by Danny Dannon in the NY Times last week.)
liberal
@imonlylurking:
LOL. A mouse farts here (in Montgomery County MD) and we get far more than 22K w/o power.
eric
@MattR: thanks…..
4tehlulz
ITT we argue about Glenn’s writings on a subject unrelated to the topic at hand.
Left Coast Tom
@jl: This thread has a topic?
catclub
@eric: He thinks Obama is motivated by what is best for the US in the Middle East.
What a novel concept.
arguingwithsignposts
@MattR: I’ll take the aclu or, for that matter the EFF over greenwald any day. And, fwiw, i’ll take the one who fights over the one who “raises attention” as well.
@13th Generation: I find greenwald’s use of the term “dear leader” offensive, and his purer-than-thou attitude somewhat lacking. But i was responding to your statement. I don’t find him that much of a vanguard in the fight against the erosion of civil liberties. Ymmv.
drkrick
@13th Generation: He’s not the enemy, but to the extent his firebagger routine discourages support of our side at the margins, he’s not an ally either. There’s a delicate dance involved in pushing your own side to do better without strengthening the other side. Greenwald is either not trying to dance that dance or is really bad at it.
On the merits and in a vacuum, I agree with Greenwald most of the time. In a world where the alternative to Obama is someone accountable to the Tea Party and the 27%’ers, I don’t think his approach is constructive.
WaterGirl
@13th Generation:
I don’t want to speak in generalities, but I will talk about this article and at least one of ABL’s recent posts. In those instances, I have the same problem with both ABL and GG. They both
pronouncemake declarative statements that are opinions – as if they are undisputed facts – and I have a problem with that. I rarely read Greenwald, but I found this article maddening because he did that so many times in this article.edited for clarity
Lolis
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther:
This bit of declaring what does not motivate the president is especially funny since GG has condemned people who make character judgments to be unthinking idiots. Yet he is more than willing to project his own BS onto the prez. If we assume Obama has good intentions we are Obots. If we presume he has calculating/amoral intentions we are just following the evidence. What a joke.
Related to the actual topic, the president did do good today and deserves credit. It really freaks me out how most politicians rush to kiss Israel’s ass.
gbear
Pawlenty’s in (yawn):
Hahah, what a card he is.
jl
@Left Coast Tom:
I dunno. Most of the Balloon Juice code is way over my head.
Edit: I think Greenwald makes interesting points. Main gripe is that I agree that he has spun up a theory of conscious knowing and premeditated Obama betrayal on various issues, that I do not think is needed, and not well supported by evidence. So, I dismiss that part of his columns, and focus on issues where possible to check out the facts. Greenwald’s obsession with Obama’s supposed treachery does not really affect most of the substantive points me makes, IMO.
Left Coast Tom
@gbear: Has he yet worked out an explanation for why Minnesota bridges spontaneously fell down during his watch?
danimal
I’m certainly not the biggest Glenzilla fan, and there were bits of unnecessary snark in his piece, but that was GG at his best. He called it right, without regard to partisanship.
Also, too, outside of the neocons like Kristol and Frum (who were never really his to lose), Obama’s not going to lose much Jewish support over this. Most American Jews just aren’t Likudniks. Bibi’s an ass, and a whole lot of Jews know this. This is a tempest in a teapot.
I know I’m dreaming, but I sure would like to see the reaction if Obama proposed to cut foreign aid to Israel in half. Based on the last week, he just might get impeached.
Anya
Fuck Greenwald and his obsessive Obama hatred. We have two parties, who are indistignuishable when it comes to Israel. What does he want the President to do?
13th Generation
@WaterGirl:
I will say that I enjoyed his writing a lot more before he went to Salon. I don’t think he’s particularly helpful to “our side” either, but he remains true to his convictions.
I’m not attorney, but I come from a family full of them, so I think I know where he’s coming from. I would just like to see people not apply the litmus test of any criticism toward Obama. Didn’t we used to mock conservatives for the same attitude toward Bush. You can question Obama’s policies and still be on the “right” side.
ETA, I think in general, he seems to agree with Obama’s policies regarding Israel.
robertdsc-PowerBook
John, could you give a quick thumbnail as to what you’re linking to? I have no interest in clicking over to read GG.
Thanks.
catclub
@gbear: “He says the country needs a president who will tell the American people the truth about the severe challenges facing the country and how America can get back on track.”
It worked so well for Mondale, another Minnesotan.
mr. whipple
So, even if you grant Obama some small degree of credit, it must be because he has some ugly hidden agenda.
Nice!
Suffern ACE
Did he just make a Mondale reference?
ETA: Darn, the cat got there first…
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
@13th Generation: Did I say I hate anyone? I did not. I don’t hate Glenn Greenwald. I didn’t even say that he’s “the enemy,” or anything remotely like that.
I disagreed vociferously with something he wrote.
For a long time I was something of a Greenwald agnostic, as his enormous talent and intellect mean that when he’s on, he’s so on that it’s frightening — so if I am to use the word “hate” here at all, it would go like this: I hate that Glenn Greenwald doesn’t apply intellectual rigor to his own work.
It also bugs the crap out of me that he’s so fucking rude, but that’s quite genuinely a different issue.
jl
@robertdsc-PowerBook: Obama, the soulless, self centered, cautious, hyper rational political cost benefit calculating machine has decided pushing the Israeli leadership towards real peace negotiations is in the national interest, and deserves some mild semi credit for that, and for restating long standing US positions more explicitly than others have. And, orchestrated Likudnik hysterical response is absurd.
Linda Featheringill
@jl:
We have a code? Really?
gbear
@Left Coast Tom: Yes.
1. The bridge designers dropped the ball.
2. The contractors had too much weight on the bridge.
3. Lack of maintenance had NOTHING to do with it.
4. It was a heavy gravity day.
5. It was someone else’s fault.
6. My soul is pure.
Case closed.
Fred
Greewald is a douche and I honestly don’t understand why you, a seemingly normal person, continue to read his crap. When he endorsed that Libertarian New Mexico Governor that should have set off all sorts of alarm bells in your head.
WereBear
GG lost some luster for me when I sprang for his book… and it was only a pamphlet, with serious idea recycling going on. I don’t understand it; his blog posts go on and on like slash fiction.
I’ve concluded he is never pleased with anything; lest someone else find fault with it.
Davis X. Machina
@Linda Featheringill: Technically, it’s more of an argot…
drkrick
@Left Coast Tom:
Was there another one besides the I-35 collapse in 2007? Because that was kind of a perfect storm, no element of which was Pawlenty was responsible for.
It started when a set of loads was miscalculate by an order of magnitude. Since the calculations were done in the early 60’s, there’s a good chance that happened due to slide rule malpractice. The bridge still stood for decades and probably would have survived until the end of its design life about 10 years out if a metric fuckton of materials for a maintenance project hadn’t been piled in just the right place to overstress the underdesigned support structures.
[A friend works for the NHTSA and sits in the office next to they guy who did the report on the collapse, so we got treated to a pretty detailed rundown one night]
That only leaves a few hundred other things to skewer Pawlenty about, starting in my opinion with his acquiescence in the delay in seating Al Franken, but pointing and laughing at that one isn’t the way to go.
jl
@gbear:
I eagerly await the future awesome oeuvre of TPaw political ads.
Except one fatal flaw. I read a earlier today that the OFFICIAL TPaw announcement is tomorrow. Did the TPaw campaign just commit another unintentional preannouncement announcement? How can this incompetent man be President if he cannot even control his own campaign communications. I await the endless analysis on our worthless mass media. I do hope TPaw will not be Algored over this very serious mist step, which may signify deeper issues!
Mark S.
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther:
Hey, Emily. Do you think there’s any point to bringing up the peace process as long as Bibi is in charge? I don’t think he has any intention of ever agreeing to a settlement.
jl
@drkrick: But it is my understanding that even after the bridge collapse Pawlenty vetoed state infrastructure spending. So I think it is perfectly appropriate to point (but not laugh) about Pawlenty and infrastructure.
drkrick
@catclub:
And that’s supposed to be morally objectionable?
Rihilism
@jl: Perfect!
jl
@Linda Featheringill: Well, whatever it is, it’s often over my head.
eemom
I’m too tired for this thread. Is there a place I can kick in a few $$ to folks who share my opinion of Greentwit?
Left Coast Tom
@drkrick: As I understand it, the Golden Gate Bridge’s issues have, in part, included a miscalculation of how much wind the bridge would see over time. Doesn’t matter if the miscalculation was made in the 1930s, people in the 2000s and 2010s get to pay to retrofit. I don’t see why Pawlenty should be granted a different standard, there was miscalculation in the 1960s, but what did he do to monitor and correct that fact?
And, why did his administration allow construction companies to overstress the bridge?
jl
@eemom: As I pointed out above, there is very strong circumstantial evidence that Cole is staging sex orgies with angelic beings in his house (in WV, of all places). I say we make him spill the beans. And Pix.
eemom
I will, however, muster the energy to assert that if that’s what the pious, pretentious little shit said in response to Obama’s speech today, anybody who defends him is a fucking tool and/or a fucking idiot, case closed.
MattR
@arguingwithsignposts:
I don’t necessarily disagree with you. I haven’t put too much thought into figuring out who exactly is number one in the “brings the most attention to civil liberties abuses” category. But I think that Glenn clearly belongs in that conversation since, despite all his faults, he has done quite a bit on that front. To go so far as to call the opinion tha Glenn has done more than anyone else on that front “weapons grade stupid” is well, weapons grade stupid.
This is largely irrelevant because the initial comment was about who brought the most attention. But I also think that while I generally agree with you, it is not so cut and dried. I am glad to see the ACLU filing lawsuits to fight against government overreach, but given the number of lawsuits dismissed for national security reasons that kind of fighting is not very effective at bringing attention to the issues without help from media figures like Glenn.
catclub
@jl: It often seems that the best bludgeons in politics are those that are actually wrong, but difficult to show are wrong in a simple bumper sticker phrase.
I think of the Qatar (?) ports deal which the democrats got great mileage out of, but which I felt was a totally empty issue.
So bludgeoning Pawlenty for not maintaining bridges when that is a totally unjustified accusation will probably work extremely well.
13th Generation
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther:
The word hate has strong implications, mea culpa if I applied it wrongly to your comment.
But check out many of the comments on this thread with regards to GG. Not high praise, to say the least. Again, I agree he has a rude style, he tends to hammer and repeat his arguments to where, I think, a judge in an actual court would tell him to get the effing point already.
I don’t always agree with his style, but I can damn sure get behind his principles.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Linda Featheringill:
Klaatu barada nikto!
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
@Mark S.: I don’t think so either, and I never have thought so, and I believe most people in diplomatic circles haven’t either.
But that exactly why I think that POTUS’s move was so brilliant on Thursday. He did not say ANYthing even remotely new. Nothing. His formulation (“1967 borders w/ land swaps”) is what everyone has been saying for 20 years. It’s in every single proposal ever put forward. Not new.
POTUS just said it out loud, from the Presidential podium — and thus called Netanyahu’s bluff. Netanyahu has been doing the “sure, I totes want a two-state peace!” dance for forever — but in one fell swoop, he revealed himself as never having been on the train in the first place.
And I for one am entirely confident that Obama knew that was how Netanyahu would react.
And with Haaretz calling him a threat to Israel http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/today-s-borders-are-the-indefensible-ones-1.363224 and leading Israeli politicians saying essentially the same, it may be (fingers crossed!) that we won’t have to deal with Netanyahu for much longer….
jl
@catclub: Well, OK.
If I were making a campaign ad, I would not just say the the bridge fell down because Pawlenty is a callous stoop and tightwad GOPer. I would emphasize that even after the bridge fell down, Pawlent refused to fund needed infrastructure maintenance. So he should be writ down as a dangerous ass.
Would that be too nuanced, and therefore not work?
gbear
@catclub: Pawlenty will just have to cross that bridge when he gets to it…
(edit: I could SO see Obama slipping that line into a debate)
gwangung
Same here. He has some good arguments. He’s useful.
That also makes him a tool, though.
Make of that, what you will.
13th Generation
@eemom:
The jury is dismissed!
Lurleen
Made me look in the few seconds it took to show the first comments here.
My bad.
Fuck GG with a red hot poker. He doesn’t even know about Israel supporting apartheid and willing joining pariah nations in the 1980’s because GG didn’t pay attention until 2005.
Fuck that.
Yutsano
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther: Netanyahu is still in a coalition last time I checked. Unfortunately he still has Shas to contend with and they are no doubt a big factor in the current out de freaque. If Livni had any sense she’d try to fracture the coalition and inspire a snap election to see if Kadima can either get a true majority or else get enough coalition partners to send Bibi packing.
Svensker
@eemom:
Your opinion on moral issues is SO valuable. Thanks for sharing.
eemom
….also, that this seems like a poor choice of occasion for the Glennbots to sing his praises about civil liberties — given that that has nothing the fuck to do with today’s speech, and even less to do with his mystical ability to divine Obama’s motives in giving it, as quoted above.
Know what I think? I think the little shit wrote that piece after the nap he had to take after the temper tantrum he threw because Obama didn’t bow to political pressure and retreat from “1967 borders” today. That’s what I think.
MattR
@Anya: The sad thing is that the first half of Greenwald’s post kinda dealt with this but it got drowned out by the unnecessary Obama criticism in the second half.
This is the perfect time to revisit the criticism that Walt and Mearsheimer received for pointing out the influence of the Israeli lobby on both parties (and to use the current reactions to point out how absurd that criticism was)
RyanS
@arguingwithsignposts: My sister is hearing that 75% of joplin is gone. but i dont believe that
eemom
@Svensker:
as is yours, carpetbagger who fled the country rather than pay taxes so firefighters and police officers could enjoy a decent pension after they helped you raise your kids in a safe neighborhood.
pssst: when you don’t pay US taxes, you don’t get the right to bitch about US foreign policy in Palestine, unless you like, LIVE in Palestine. So STFU.
Lurleen
I’m in moderation because I agree with eemom? Or is it because I pointed out that GG doesn’t have a political memory beyond 2005?
RyanS
@arguingwithsignposts: We have alot of friends that lived on that side of town but theres no communications yet all the cell towers are down and so are the phones
Mark S.
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther:
Exactly. I couldn’t believe the butthurt reaction to it. I would have thought even Bush had said something to that effect.
And maybe you’re right. I remember back in the 90’s when Bibi was last PM he at least had to make a show that he was working on the peace process, even if it was mostly throwing monkey wrenches in the process. I thought everyone knew he was full of bullshit, but if this tears the mask off, I’d have to say that’s some impressive 11-D chess.
OzoneR
@beltane:
Oh this is bad.
13th Generation
@eemom:
Don’t worry, eemom, Obama will be OK. Promise.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
@Yutsano: I’m honestly not even trying to guess what’ll happen next – it’s been so long since there was a genuinely new dynamic that I wouldn’t want to hazard a guess.
And lord knows, it may do absolutely nothing for anyone.
But it’s hard for someone like me, who has seen the same theater play out a million times, to not get a little excited about something genuinely new…! I was positively giddy on Thursday when I heard Bibi had used the word “indefensible.” Giddy, I tell you!
Lurleen
GG ignores Israeli history. And they have the bomb and are not a party to the non proliferation treaty — like a pariah nation. GG doesn’t know about the apartheid struggle, BECAUSE HE WAS ASLEEP, and admittedly so.
FUCK THAT.
Jeffro
GG should try, just as a writing experiment, to catch a fly or two with some honey. In my experience, vinegar doesn’t work well even when you’re right.
Blogging/trying to drive the discussion isn’t the same as trying to pound a law case home or sway a judge with the force of one’s argument. The length and ferocity of his posts don’t translate well to teh Internets or even my sympathetic ears, regardless of the fact that he’s right (factually, morally, Constitutionally) 99.9% of the time.
He could also get with the program and see what Obama’s got to deal with (in the House, the Senate, the Republican Noise Machine, etc) anytime now – this isn’t TBogg’s magical unicorn fairy land or whatever…
Nevertheless, I’m glad that GG is out there often talking about civil rights issues that we don’t hear about too often, particularly free speech in this country and all the crazy stuff that went on under Bush
eemom
@13th Generation:
I wasn’t worried about that.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
Oh, and as long as I’m going on about it here, too, in case people didn’t catch me tooting my own horn in the earlier thread:
What I was saying all day on Thursday and Friday re: Obama’s speech, on Twitter, in comments here and elsewhere, on my own blog http://emilylhauserinmyhead.wordpress.com/2011/05/19/obama-netanyahu-the-middle-east-speech-what-might-have-happened-there/ and on the BBC http://emilylhauserinmyhead.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/emily-hauser-bbc/ is exactly and precisely what Obama said at AIPAC today.
TEH PRESIDENT – I IZ IN HIS HED.
Mike in NC
Read today where Ed Harris will portray Senator John McCain in an upcoming production. Perhaps as an apology to the role he played in “Buffalo Soldiers”?
13th Generation
@Jeffro:
I like the cut of your jib! This is essentially the argument I’m trying to make in defending GG. Unfortunately, he’s got just a little too much Firebagger in him to make many friends around here.
Svensker
@eemom:
:)
Yutsano
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther: The real problem is I don’t know what Bibi is going to do next either. I know if he even tries to tamper with the money spigot he’ll have major splainin’ to do. But even worse is he knows he can’t back down from any hardline position he has on, well, anything. If he does Shas will eat his lunch. Now all of a sudden he’s been shown to be the Great Pretender and Tzipi has a fantastic club to beat over his head. And that woman is definitely no delicate peach either.
Iz U killin hiz doodz? The Secret Service might want to have a talk with you about that.
Mark B
Country first, western second.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
@Yutsano: LOL’ed, I truly did. HA!
(Also, too: Yes, no delicate peach, she, and thank heavens for that! I’m not much of fan, but she may be the blunt object we need…. So to speak).
Lurleen
@Jeffro:
That’s not what GG is after. Trust me — or not — I was once on the bandwagon and the first time I saw that he couldn’t back up what he was saying made me think twice.
It shouldn’t take GG to turn John’s head. Nor should it take Sully’s. Obama is being real. It’s about time that a President of these united states takes Israel to the woodshed and hard. They have been in our face since Obama took office. It’s mostly American Jews who have been the spearheads in the settlements. It’s our problem and their problem. Carter is right — it is apartheid. Didn’t you see those videos of Jewish young people calling Obama nigger? I could look it up, but if you read this blog, you know what I am talking about.
Punchy
@RyanS: That’s not true. Hospital damaged, some ancillary probs, according to the KC metro news. But not 75% or anything close.
Edit: Maybe not. Now discussion on “mobile morgues” on Joplin police scanners and shit. Might be a complete mess. News sketchy.
hhex65
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther: Every saint has a superpower– I know that’s a requirement for canonization.
eemom
@13th Generation:
ok, fine, you want to defend him. But couldn’t you defend him on an occasion when he doesn’t allow his blind hatred of Obama to dwarf whatever substantive contribution he might have to make to the issue under discussion?
Oh wait……I see the problem here…..
Mark B
@Mike in NC: Maybe Harris will reprise his role from Walker. I think that’s how he should play McCain, since the characters have a lot in common.
burnspbesq
@13th Generation:
You’re kidding, right? Do the names Marty Lederman and Neal Katyal ring any bells?
Jeffro
@13th Generation: He (usually) has a point- the problem is that a) he goes overboard and assumes the worst of people, right and left, b) he goes on too long, and c) he could win over twice as many people with just a smidge of humor.
I mean, once you get past the age of 8 or 9, it’s hard to have anything browbeaten in or our of you. GG is usually right on the issue(s) at hand but is often off-putting with anyone who has a shade of disagreement, even when he launches his posts to begin with.
And really, this is the Internet…no one is going to be won over by the length of your argument. Save some time, be brief, and drive the discussion in a more positive way, right? =)
Rihilism
I clicked on John’s link and immediately saw the Salon link and realized it was Greenwald. I’m like, “Ok, I’ve found his perspective interesting in the past, so I’ll take a looksee”. I’m reading along agreeing with most of what he says or at least agreeing that he’s making defensible points and then I read:
I mean, even the part about Palestinians was defensible in that he said “I don’t believe” and was specific to the Palestinian situation (I don’t agree, but people are entitled to their opinions). But come on, Obama isn’t ever driven by morality and empathy? It just was so totally unnecessary to take the over-the-top jab and made the rest of the uber-technocrat stuff seem like a rather silly rationalization for his meager attempt to give Obama a bit of credit.
I say all of this with the knowledge that I had no intention of finding fault with or had any expectations of what Greenwald had to say. Had he not thrown in the jab and then the weird technocrat theorizing, IMO it would have been a stronger, more useful and more interesting post…
dedc79
Greenwald is good at sniffing out hypocrisy. Very good. The problem is that finding and calling out hypocrisy is basically the lowest form of journalism. It’s very necessary, especially these days, but he never can seem to transcend that step. Instead he’s content to hammer the same issues over and over as if the more words he uses and the angrier he sounds, the more incontrovertible his position is. He compounds the problem with his self-righteousness, which doesn’t wear well even though he’s often right.
Tim, Interrupted
Same old same old: BJ Obots for some reason believe that GG has a default obligation to be nice to Obama or to support the Democrats, to be on “our side.”
Please explain why you believe this?
Why is it not his only obligation to say and write what he believes to be the case, regardless of how it reflects on Obama or anyone else?
It’s weird that you GG haters can’t just let that go. He has NO obligation to be on any side other than the side of what he believes…it’s not hard to understand.
Punchy
@Punchy: OK, now the Red Cross is saying 75% of Joplin destroyed. So I was wrong. Dayum. Mile wide ‘nado just 86’d dozens of peeps.
Jeffro
@Lurleen: I hear you, I was just trying to comment on GG’s writing from a style perspective. He has a lot to say and is consistent on constitutional principles, holding both parties responsible for what they say and do, etc. He just does it at 3x the length that I would, and with twice the vinegar. At least. ;)
MattR
@eemom:
Whose decision has it been to focus on that piece of the post (maybe 25%) and ignore the larger point that Greenwald was trying to make? I disagree with that part of Glenn’s post (and even if I agreed with his opinion about Obama I would say it was counterproductive to include it), but his opinion is also not anything new and is well known to readers of this blog. If that post came from some right wing site and not Glenn, I imagine most people would be focusing on the substance of the article (that Israeli politics have a great influence on our own and to deny that is absurd) and would largely ignore the expected shot at Obama.
dedc79
@Lurleen: I really hope you’re not generalizing about Israelis in general based on a youtube video, just as I hope you’re not generalizing about american jews based on those who have gone to live in the settlements in the West Bank.
Also, maybe you could explain what you mean by taking Israel to the woodshed. If it’s just your way of saying “push them toward a peace agreement along the lines of the 67 borders” I’m all with you, but I wonder whether you mean something different.
Fred
@Tim, Interrupted: BAHahahahah. Greenwald is not on ‘our side’. He is on his own side. He endorsed a fucking Libertarian for Prez for fucks sakes. Get your head out of your ass!
burnspbesq
@Tim, Interrupted:
OK, fine, I’ll concede that point. And I will go on to judge him based on what he believes. And I will find him wanting most of the time, because he appears to believe all sorts of shit that is either demonstrably untrue or inherently unknowable. Plus he can’t write for shit.
There you go: a non-Obot critique of Greenwald. How you like me now?
RyanS
@Punchy: That info came from the red cross people my sister knows. its also being reported on CNN now but I cant believe it Joplin is 200,000 people
Fred
@Tim, Interrupted: Why is it that anyone who criticises anyone who is a CONSTANT critic of Obama is called an o-bot. It’s fucking old and tired. If you don’t like Obama fine. If you don’t trust him fine. Exit stage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>RIGHT!
MattR
@Rihilism: I thought that bit perfectly summed up Greenwald’s relationship with Obama. I think Glenn had high hopes that as a constitutional scholar Obama would go down swinging while fighting the good fight. When Obama didn’t do that and showed that he had a pragmatic side as well, Glenn became so disillusioned that he flew to the other extreme (that Obama never actually cared at all), perhaps as a defense mechanism of sorts (thought whatever it it, it isn’t rational)
@Fred: C’mon. That’s my favorite part of this blog. To the Obama haters, anyone who says anything positive about Obama is immediately an O-bot. To the O-bots, anyone who says anything negative about Obama is immediately an Obama hater.
fasteddie9318
This is not hard, Cole. When a Republican says, “country first,” he or she means, in order:
1. their own state
2. whatever state they’re speaking in
3. the Kingdom of (their) God
4. the Confederate States of America
5. Israel
6. country music
7. apartheid-era South Africa
8. the Aryan Nation
9. the United States of America, if you take out all the libtard commie Mooslems who voted for That One to be president
Obviously, these are the truest of True Patriots.
RyanS
ALso i was told relay on all channels:
gwangung
Because we believe that you, Tim Interrupted, are a mega douche and are doing this only to make you pissed off.
Linda Featheringill
@RyanS: Apparently the tornado hit a hospital. Maybe a large portion of the hospital was trashed.
And yes, there were people inside.
Tim, Interrupted
@Fred:
Ummm…that’s exactly what I wrote, fool. He is on the side of what he believes, just as he should be.
Are you slow?
gwangung
@MattR:
Heh.
Now this makes me laugh.
I like laughing.
Joe Bauers
Holy shitsnacks is reading Greenwald ever tiresome.
Shorter Greenwald (doesn’t matter which post, they’re all basically the same): Obama = Satan times infinity.
Tim, Interrupted
@burnspbesq:
LOL
BobS
@Jewish Steel: @Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther: @mr. whipple: @eemom: Maybe Greenwald read between the lines of Obama’s silence about Operation Cast Lead, or his forceful statements about Israel’s attack on the aid flotilla. I know I was moved by his principled concern and moral empathy.
In any event, Greenwald is to Balloon Juicers as Obama is to Teabaggers.
RyanS
@Linda Featheringill: Yeah Im hearing reports that people were sucked out the windows and that there was a large gas explosion.
I’m listening to the Scanner and theres reports of looting from J4s some people have no class.
Tim, Interrupted
@Fred:
Freddy, what are you babbling about? Exit from where? BJ? Is this an Obama Campaign 2012 site? Wasn’t aware of that?
Fool.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I would suggest that Greenwald would look a lot less foolish (and petulant and childish) if he refrained from the little mind-reading exercises, and stuck to being on the “side” of facts rather than his emo-obsessions, but that’s just me.
Just a reminder to anyone giving to the Red Cross or other relief organizations, it’s better not to earmark your money for Joplin or any other cause.
MonkeyBoy
Isn’t nice that Senator Joe Leibeman(I), U.S. senator for Israel, has finally become irrelevant as far as the media is concerned?
You have to search fairly deep for recent mention of him, and all you can find is just slight quotes like:
fasteddie9318
@Shoemaker-Levy 9:
If this is the case, then it demonstrates that our political leadership can’t think strategically worth a damn.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
So Greenwald praises Obama, but the BJ Revenge Squad isn’t satisfied because he didn’t praise him enough.
You jackals will never be satisfied by anything less than knob-slobbering devotion to the Great and Mighty O, so why the fuck should he tailor his writing to you? Cry more, you pathetic dipshits.
In before utterly baseless accusations of firebaggery.
tkogrumpy
@gwangung: Yes but he’s that rarest of tools, a self-sharpening one.
Rihilism
@MonkeyBoy:
It’d be like an extremely early Festivus miracle…
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Tim, Interrupted:
I’ve never thought that Greenwald is on “our side”. He’s definitely a libertarian, and I suspect he’s a Libertarian, and it’s that second part that makes me suspicious of anything he writes. Well, that and the fact that he’s more than willing to dismiss the facts over who’s responsible for the continuing detention of prisoners at Gitmo, and that he’s willing to present hearsay as fact in the Manning case. And the little
scamPAC he’s got going with Hamsher.GregB
American foreign policy is being set by people who had packed their bags this weekend in anticipation of the Apocalypse.
Nom de Plume
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther: Breaking: Glenn Greenwald is a psychic & can read the hearts of men!
For the record, I also don’t think that Obama has any “deeply held beliefs” in the sense that ordinary people do. Why? Because he’s the leader of the most powerful empire in history, and it simply ain’t in his job description to have “beliefs”. His job is to protect the fucking empire, not feel shit.
POTUS is the most pragmatic job in the history of the world, folks. Even Lincoln calculated everything he did. It shouldn’t be controversial to say that the POTUS acts out of political self interest.
tkogrumpy
@eemom: Is this correct people? I’m much too poor to pay U.S. taxes, but I still think I have a responsibility to piss and moan all I want.
eemom
@MattR:
Good un-client, that is pure delusion, and you don’t have to take my word for it. Just go check out some of GG’s archives from pre-election 2008, especially with regard to the supposed “cave” on FISA. He had “high hopes” of Obama like I have high hopes that Cole is gonna send me a bouquet of roses tomorrow.
Omnes Omnibus
@eemom:
Well, I guess a girl can dream.
MattR
@eemom:
huh?
Yutsano
@Nom de Plume: LOLwut? He doesn’t stop being a fucking human being on Inauguration Day. Of course he still has feelings and emotions and of course those feelings and emotions will guide his actions. Didn’t you hear him when he agreed to go ahead with the killing of Bin Laden? HE WENT WITH HIS GUT. Obama is not an unfeeling animatron for FSM’s sake.
Shoemaker-Levy 9
@fasteddie9318:
An American client state, armed to the teeth, right smack in the middle of the Muslim world. From the standpoint of a superpower that relies on violence and intimidation as its primary tools it makes perfect sense.
Rihilism
@Yutsano: I’d also point out that calculating pragmatism (which Lincoln possessed) and moral empathy (which Lincoln also possessed) are not mutually exclusive…
MattR
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
From a purely technical point of view, I think Obama is ultimately responsible for this despite all the roadblocks put in his way. It would almost definitely be political suicide, but I am pretty sure that Obama has the tools at his disposal to end the indefinite detention of prisoners (not just at Gitmo) and either charge them in criminal courts or release them, even if it has to be into the United States (I am guessing the President has some kind of power to grant individuals asylum or residency or something, though I could very well be wrong) Part of me would love to have seen Obama do that but in my world, the costs of doing so are too high despite the fact that it is morally correct. In Glenn’s, any cost is acceptable in order to maintain our moral purity.
eemom
@tkogrumpy:
there’s a difference between being too poor to pay, and bailing on the country because you don’t want to pay. And in particular bailing because you’re basically on the side of Scott Walker and other republican govs about how good decent hardworking citizens who chose private enterprise instead of public service have the right to nickel and dime the folks who taught their kids and patrolled their streets and put out their fires out of a decent salary and benefits, because their own private ventures didn’t turn out to be as lucrative as they’d hoped. That would be our “moral” Sven here.
suzanne
@MattR:
Exactly. Dude cannot fathom the possibility that POTUS may want to do something, but cannot do so. He constantly assumes bad faith. Which makes him tiresome, even when he’s right. Which is often.
Veritas78
If one doesn’t have a dog in the Israel-Palestine fight, it’s pretty clear that a little equity and common decency could go a long way. As an atheist, I resent that both of these cults can’t get along, and that I have to pay for it.
eemom
@MattR:
if you don’t know what that’s about, I can only assume you’re even johnny-come-latelier to politics than your guru Greenwald. Off to teh Google with you.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@MattR:
How, exactly?
Well isn’t that nice. When things go to shit here due to a reaction to this moral purity, he can just jet on down to Brazil. How convenient.
MattR
@eemom: I am pretty sure I know what you are talking about, but I wanted to make sure I had the right iteration and that I knew your take on what exactly the controvery was and what was “supposed” about the “cave”.
@eemom: Where did Svensker end up moving to? I can’t remember but if I pick a country at random the odds are that she will end up paying more in taxes there than in the United States.
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): How exactly what? Obama does not need Congressional approval to have the Department of Justice seek federal indictments against anyone we are detaining. As for releasing them, that is probably a whole lot trickier since you have to find them a place to go. But my bet is that the Presidency has various tricks and tools it can use to grant residency/asylum to any detainees who are not charged and cannot be repatriated elsewhere.
OzoneR
@MattR:
No, because to a liberal going down and fighting the good fight are mutually exclusive. You cannot do both. If you’re going down, it’s because you’re not fighting hard enough.
eemom
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
shuuuush. We’re not allowed to mention that he lives in Brazil. It makes us super-duper-obots or something.
AxelFoley
@eemom:
My bank account is always willing to accept $$ from those who can’t stand GG.
MattR
@eemom: That horrible, horrible man for choosing to live in the country that will allow he and his partner to remain together. Good to know that if my medical condition ever requires that I move to Canada in order to get coverage, I should immediately shut the fuck up about the country I lived in all my life.
Lyrebird
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
Wow, if you think that was praise… just wow.
It was a minor concession, a feint to the other side. The rest of the article just gets snider. He does link to this New Yorker article though which covers the same news & analysis w/o the gratuitous insinuations…
KXB
Once again, words do not mean what they seem to mean. Netanyahu said the 1967 borders “indefensible.” That is true – for the Arabs. In 1967, the Arab armies of Syria, Egypt, and Jordan were unable to defend themselves from Israel’s pre-emptive attack. Israel thought the Arabs were about to put them under a blockade, and felt it necessary to launch the Six-Day War.
trollhattan
@RyanS:
Wow, this looks horrid. Here’s hoping folks were as prepared as possible before it hit. I wonder if the ruined helicopter in front of the hospital was on the ground?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/official-fatalities-reported-as-tornado-hits-southwest-missouri/2011/05/22/AFXAiP9G_story_1.html
Best wishes and hopes to all affected.
Lyrebird
@dedc79:
Thanks dedc79, I feel safer to visit these parts seeing your comments.
Funny how, as someone who’s almost half Irish & who grew up in the Boston area, that never gets used as a basis to question my loyalty to this country…
For younger/non-Boston-area folk, that was one of the places where US residents were busy shipping arms, funds, etc to support the violence in No. Ireland.
Sigh.
May peace prevail on earth…
Joseph Nobles
Shorter Greenwald: Obama deserves some modest credit, but he’s not going to get it from me.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Shoemaker-Levy 9:
Except that for the first 19 years, it was a client state of the Brits and the French (mostly the latter, and was constantly defending its borders from its neighbors- neighbors who, btw, gobbled up the proposed Palestinian state state that was supposed to come into existence at the same time as Israel.
And France quit supplying Israel because they viewed the ’67 war as aggressive, while Israel called it preemptive (as it turned out, the Israeli intelligence proved out- Egypt, acting on intelligence gathered by the Soviets, was misled to believe Israel was massing to attack Syria. so Egypt massed it’s army in the Sinai with plans to initiate a war), leaving a supply vacuum which the US filled. And the biggest reason that the US filled that vacuum so eagerly was because of Soviet involvement in the area, which effected not only Israel but Turkey, too, and the rest of the Mediterranean basin.
Mark S.
@eemom:
No, it makes you assholes.
eemom
@MattR:
now that you’re at the stage of just making shit up, how about you come clean and admit you have no idea what the fuck you’re talking about?
MattR
@eemom: Yep. I don’t have PKD. It didn’t result in my father requiring dialysis and eventually a kidney transplant (the night before my first day of work after college, FWIW). Nor did it lead to the stroke that incapactiated my father for several years requiring us to hire a home health care aide for him before it eventually killed him in 2007. Nor have any of my other relatives suffered from this disease. In fact, my sister has been completely unconcerned about running any tests that might lead to it being diagnosed since she doesn’t have a 50-50 chance of having a pre-existing condition on her record before she gets a real job with medical insurance (having just completed grad school).
And my mother was not born and raised in Canada which enabled her to get citizenship for both my sister and I which in turn would allow me to move there at any point and to become eligible for their healthcare system. Nope. Nothing to my story at all. Just a figment of my imagination.
Josh
Emily, I think about a third of the adult Israeli population has heard of Ha’aretz and 6% reads it (the latter datum is from Wikipedia; I think the former is from The New Yorker). So its perspective isn’t a great predictor of Israeli political trends, sad to say.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Mark S.:
Did MLK lead the struggle for civil rights from Mexico? Did Gandhi lead the struggle for Indian independence from a villa in Switzerland?
Odie Hugh Manatee
The guy with the opinion in Brazil may be right on some subjects but the way he writes about them makes me want to run a couple of ice picks through my eyes before getting close to finishing reading. He is tiresome and likes to play slight variations of the same old tune no matter what the subject is. As bad as Sully is, I would prefer to read his stupid shit more than GG’s endless moaning and groaning. At least Sully has an excuse for his ‘style’; he’s an idiot. GG has no such excuse and that makes him unreadable.
I do like his ball washers though, they sure can be entertaining!
Fred
@Tim, Interrupted: If you are a Greenwald defender there is something wrong with your head that logic cannot remedy. Full stop. Explain to me what it is about Greenwald that makes your dick hard. Because it’s interesting….just like slowing down to see an accident scene is interesting.
Lyrebird
@trollhattan: Yes, thank you for the link — the article says they had enough time to get the patients out of that hospital (and presumably most of the staff to the cellar). thank heavens for not-so-small mercies, and for in-time sirens. Joplin folks will need a lot of support… (mpls 2 of course)
Fred
@Tim, Interrupted: So you haven’t bought your mug and T-shirt yet?
https://donate.barackobama.com/page/contribute/o2012-made-in-the-usa-mug?source=site_tout3
https://donate.barackobama.com/page/contribute/o2012-made-in-the-usa-shirt-zin
What are you waiting for. I’ve bought several for all my family and relatives and plan to buy several more.
fasteddie9318
@Shoemaker-Levy 9:
It makes sense in a world where superpower gamesmanship is relevant. It makes effectively no sense in the world we currently occupy. Our unconditional support for Israel doesn’t deter anything anymore, it inflames things.
fasteddie9318
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
Maybe they would have if they could have led the revolution via INTERNET BLOG! WHOOOO!
eemom
@MattR:
damn, I AM glad you are not my client.
I’m sorry about your personal medical history, of which of course I had no clue. Similar to you not having any clue about mine. Like for example, I might be at risk of a devastating illness that I wouldn’t have the option of moving to Canada to obtain effective treatment for.
But neither of those has anything the fuck to do with the situation being discussed above, i.e., a woman who bailed on this country because she COULD, rather than paying taxes that would support a decent living for public servants, out of envy that she wasn’t able to score an equal or greater living by NOT serving the public.
And all of this coming up in the first place, because this person chose to insinuate that I have no right to discuss morality of any kind……because WHY again? Oh yes — because a year ago, I refused to reflexively assume the official “moral” judgment about the flotilla incident, based on zero investigation, and zero evidence, as to what actually transpired in that event.
MattR
@eemom:
The comment of mine you responded to had nothing to do with Svensker. It was in response to the fact that Glenn was forced to move to Brazil because the United States would not allow his Brazilian partner to come here. I was trying to compare that with the fact that I might have to choose to leave this country to get medical care one day.
(EDIT: I should not have made my wise ass comment and gotten in between a personal pissing match between you and Svensker)
Corner Stone
@eemom:
You mean when those Israeli commandos boarded that boat in international waters and murdered those unarmed people who were trying to deliver food and first aid supplies to Gaza?
And you said they weren’t innocent and they deserved what they got?
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@fasteddie9318:
And get paid while doing it- none of those communiques to the the fellow protestors, gratis, from inside of a jail cell.
Nothing says, “Worst ever violation of rights in the history of the US!” like a blogpost written from Brazil in the midst of a six-month stay at the significant others.
Faith without works is dead.
eemom
….and also, because I dared to suggest that the “humanitarians” on the vessel in question were perhaps not really motivated by humanitarian concerns at all.
Just to make sure we have the record straight for when Cornered Stone — that renowned compassionate minister to mankind — shows up to get the back of his and Greenwald’s neo-Canadian groupie.
Corner Stone
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): I wonder if you’ll ever realize how silly you seem with this line of criticism.
You sound like a fool.
“Greenwald in Brazil, civil rights abuse of Obama.”
eemom
ah. I see I underestimated the response time of the dude whose closest thing to a life is pretending he has “friends” waiting all night for him to show up for drinks and dinner.
eemom
@Corner Stone:
I didn’t say they deserved what they got, loser. As you well know, we went through all this ad nauseum last week. So, have the decency to link AGAIN to the comment in question, so that others may see you for the lying little shit that you are. Unless, of course, your purpose in rising up from your coffin yet again in this particular thread, is the perception that MattR and other naifs haven’t witnessed this ridiculous argument the first 9000 times it took place.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Corner Stone:
It’s a valid line of criticism.
Greenwald seems to think that by writing only, he can convince the institutionalized power structure to change its ways. When has this EVER worked before?
If Greenwald is so upset with the way things are, concerning everything from Gitmo to the law that keeps his boyfriend/husband from immigrating to the US, he should be taking it to the streets. But that would be uncomfortable, wouldn’t it?
Corner Stone
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): You’re aware that about an eleventy thousand people throughout our history have written forceful critiques of governmental authority and its decisions while abroad?
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Corner Stone:
And what did they change by writing- just writing?
eemom
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
Cornered Stone doesn’t give a shit about Greenwald or his marriage with a non-US citizen.
Cornered Stone doesn’t give a shit about civil liberties, threats thereto, or anything else Greenwald writes about. Most likely, Cornered Stone has never even READ Greenwald — nor anyone else whose writings are the subject of controversy on this blog. That’s kind of obvious from the fact that he never has anything positive to say about any of them, much less quotations or other evidence of their righteousness.
Cornered Stone comments here for one reason only: to attack and undermine total strangers in a pathetic attempt to convince himself he is less of an abject loser than he knows himself to be.
tomvox1
What. An. ASSHOLE.
dollared
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): I dunno, should we start with Lenin? Or how about the Ayatollah? Letter from a Birmingham jail? St. Paul to the Romans?
Or for that matter, why is it your place to tell Glenn Greenwald that he must start some sort of social revolution to satisfy your personal resentments? He is a legal expert, he is writing within his area of expertise and has contributed greatly to a heightened, sophisticated awareness of critical issues that affect our freedoms in a world where all technologies feared by Orwell have been implemented. He is contributing what he does best. Do you do that? Is this thread an indication of your best?
It is strange that any liberal rejects the positions held by the ACLU. Period.
TMM, I’ve always enjoyed you except on the Greenwald subject. Read eemom’s abusive, hostile line here and ask yourself if that’s the kind of person you want to align with.
FlipYrWhig
Were any of you _Frasier_ fans? I was. There are any number of episodes that revolve around Frasier fretting, “But what about my ethics?” That’s how I picture Glenn Greenwald.
newhavenguy
Really? A shame. Fine writer on civil liberties issues, but it turns out he’s a fundamentalist at heart. Marshall at TPM, Benen at… shit you know that guy by now, don’t you? and Barnett at Esquire do if not a better job than I could, one with much less fucking profanity.
Which is pretty much where I am with Greenwald, who’s getting way too Hamsher these days. To hear him, it was TRAITOR OBAMA who failed to close Gitmo, not Congress. (To be fair, with bully pulpit/executive power/Green Lantern magic, the President could have done it illegally, maybe, just like our heroes Nixon and Reagan.)
Not the first time, either. His DADT coverage should be legend, if not already. (Shorter: Obama, Reid hate gays, take them for granted, threw them under the bus. Reality is different, but IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER SOMEHOW, DAMMIT!)
Maybe it’s just me, but how is “left Libertarian” Glenn Greenwald an ally or even a friend, politically speaking, over the last few years? He has principles and values to be sure, but damned if he hasn’t done his best to work at cross purposes to them.
I look forward to Cole pissing me off like this, it would save time spent trolling this troublesome blog. (And no John, I don’t. I like this corner of the vast toilet that is the intertubes.)
eemom
@dollared:
how about a little evidence of any of that?
Make it easy — start with “he is a legal expert.” Surely a sophisticated internetarian like you shouldn’t have any trouble finding a link or two to back that up.
NB, “I was a Constitutional rights lawyer” from his Salon blurb doesn’t cut it. Evidence, you know — “legal experts” are generally kind of sticklers about that.
Mnemosyne
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Yep. Greenwald is very good at assembling facts. He’s absolutely terrible at interpreting people’s motives. And yet, if you point out that his conclusions don’t make sense, he proudly points to the giant pile of facts as though they somehow prove that his interpretation of those facts is correct.
It’s a very “A is A” reflex on his part.
dollared
@eemom: eemom, his research and legal arguments are solid, and I am in a position to judge that. Beyond that, until you learn how to be civil, I’m not feeding you.
FlipYrWhig
@newhavenguy: I don’t think he is particularly “an ally,” although I also don’t think he has to be. He should continue to be a civil liberties absolutist gadfly.
Melissa MacEwan, who blogs at Shakespeare’s Sister, when the new Star Trek movie was out, had a piece where she wondered why a rebooted Star Trek couldn’t have a female Captain Kirk. People pointed out, reasonably enough, that there’s a preexisting mythos and familiar characters, and Captain Kirk is a man. She responded in a post that said, as a refrain, “I demand more.” (Yeah, it was more than a little weird to me too.)
That’s what Greenwald does, by design. He demands more. You can say, Obama tried to close Guantanamo, but Congress balked. Not good enough; he demands more. You can say, trying to arrest American citizen Anwar al-Awlaki when he’s holed up in Yemen would risk getting scads of American soldiers killed. Not good enough; he demands more.
I think he has a small number of absolutely sacrosanct principles and no patience for counterarguments about practicality… and those are his _best_ qualities.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@dollared:
The first two who agitated to the point where they were exiled- and both came back before their revolutions were complete- and one who was martyred.
My resentments?! HIS resentments. Short of him taking some sort of direct action, I see him as little more than a hybrid of a gadfly and a confidence man. Unlike the bloggers here, Greenwald gets paid decently to foment outrage, then doubles down by using the outrage to raise funds for his PAC and pushing his books. He stops pushing the outrage, the money dries up.
Whatever eemom’s tactics, I think she’s right about Greenwald. As I’ve written numerous times in the past, he tells half-truths about Manning, and he unfairly targets Obama when it comes to Gitmo. Lately he’s been pushing that weak-ass argument that it’s unconstitutional to issue “capture or kill” orders against terrorists outside of our borders, and when he gets called on it, instead of addressing the issue he finds shabby excuses to run away.
And don’t even get me started with his support for Julian Assange’s ill-advised experiment in openness, which is much more likely to play into the hands of oppressive societies and absolutely torpedo democracies- or maybe you haven’t noticed the dearth of leaks generated in Russia or China?
dollared
For all you Obots: why doesn’t Marcy Wheeler get The GG Treatment? Or is she just part of the general contempt for FDL?
FlipYrWhig
@Mnemosyne: This. And somehow people who ought to know better keep letting him convince them anyway.
jl
The correct answer is Andorra.
Mnemosyne
@dollared:
I’ve never seen Marcy Wheeler insist that the fact that there was no public option in the ACA proves that Obama never wanted one at all and lied about wanting one for almost two years until he was finally in a position to kill it.
IOW, Wheeler sticks to the facts and doesn’t assign malign motives to every action by the administration, so she gets more respect than Greenwald.
ETA: And if you’re asking why our bloghost doesn’t pay as much attention to Wheeler as he does Greenwald, it’s because he likes to troll his own blog.
FlipYrWhig
@dollared: Do dozens of Marcy Wheeler fans swarm to defend her from all perceived slurs and slights? There are things I dislike about Greenwald, but the reason why threads like this happen is that, all too often, Greenwald is treated as an unimpeachable expert. So among people who feel the way I do, there’s a rush to forestall praise for him, and then the predictable routine sets in: his name comes up, people get snippy preemptively, other people say that that snippiness comes from an inability to handle criticism of Obama, and around and around it goes.
dollared
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): Thanks for responding. OK, you’re just not an open government/liberties guy. I am. I fail to see how it our democracy will fail if it’s more open than China or Russia. I thought that was the point. For that reason, I think of GG as being on my team. And if he makes Obama a bit less comfortable in his shell, then it’s nothing Obama didn’t sign up for.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
FlipYrWhig
@Mnemosyne: Also, at least IIRC, Marcy Wheeler hasn’t paid a visit to comments here and dropped the “
Y’all are jus’ jealousYou just can’t handle any criticism of Dear Leader” stinkbombs Greenwald has done personally.Mnemosyne
Last item before bed, and to circle back to the ostensible topic of the thread, I found this picture to be fascinating, for some reason. The body language is very interesting.
dollared
@Mnemosyne: Good points all.
FlipYrWhig
@dollared:
I think you’re right, he’s “an open government/liberties guy,” not particularly a social-welfare or social-justice liberal. I’m a “what can we do tangibly to help the lives of suffering people” guy. I don’t know how much Glenn Greenwald cares about that kind of thing.
dollared
@Mnemosyne: Not sure about the body language, but golly, Bibi’s not small – 6’1″, 225, permanently an asshole? He’s quite imposing!
Mnemosyne
@dollared:
I freely admit, when I heard he was going to be prime minister again, my first thought was, “Jesus, I thought we were rid of that asshole!” But no such luck.
ETA: Obligatory Obot moment — Bibi may be imposing, but Obama could totally take him in a fight.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@dollared:
That’s not true.
I interpret the Constitution quite liberally, with very few exceptions. Where I differ with libertarians and anarchists (and I’m not tossing that word out lightly), is in that I think there are cases where a society- be it a tribe or an empire- is compelled to protect itself. Humans cannot survive individually (and they certainly can’t procreate) whether they live in a hunter-gatherer society or one rooted in agriculture. Humans are interdependent out of necessity. This is something that Greenwald and Assange seem to overlook.
dollared
@FlipYrWhig: I like to think both are good goals. My main issue is that we need low unemployment and a strong safety net or the whole shebang doesn’t work, and I don’t think Obama understands how completely broken our employee cost/tax structure/health care/retirement savings system is. I do know; ask me how much my team in China costs me, and ask me how much my family’s private insurance policy costs.
But he’s all we got, so I operate as FDR suggested when he said “Make me do the right thing.”
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@FlipYrWhig:
Actually, I’m a soshulist who hates the sort of academic elitism of the American soshulist movement. I’m also a student of history who knows that, beyond a few rare moments in history, change comes slowly- and with a struggle. I think it’s better to work through the left of the Democratic Party to change things than it is to join the handful of other soshulists shouting strident Marxist platitudes.
dollared
@Mnemosyne: I dunno, maybe with the age difference. But I’ve known lots of IDF (and ex-IDF) guys and gals in my business and Wednesday-night-soccer lives , and I’ve reminded myself a few times that I have way, way less training in hurting and killing people than any one of them has had.
And such nice people! Really!
Odie Hugh Manatee
@FlipYrWhig:
This is one of the things that I find curious about some people. For some reason they feel the need to excoriate anyone who dares to point out that their superstar isn’t so super. That all you need to do to start some online donnybrook with these people who have too much time on their hands and an internet connection is to state your negative opinion of their superstar and off at the mouth they go frothing.
Say something positive and they’re willing to leave you alone or maybe hold up a virtual hand for a virtual high-five, but dare to state an opinion that they consider an insult to their sainted one and BAM, it’s on!
John knows that all he has to do to liven up a dreary day or night is to toss out a GG may be wrong sometimes but this time he’s right! (or that GG’s wrong, or lame or whatever) and he’s got an online war in no time to entertain everyone who laughs at this inane shit.
It’s good for the entertainment value and that’s about it, it does nothing else.
Danny
Yeah, I know John is trolling me. I don’t care. I think the time is long due for mainstream dems to smack the for-profit discontents down, and smack them down hard. It’s not like the danger isn’t real. It’s not like this is the first time the remnants of the New Left helped get republicans elected by starting civil wars within the progressive movement.
Rubin and Hoffman at the democratic convention of ’68, the Teddy Kennedy rebellion of ’80, the Naderists of ’00, they were the Hamshers and Greenwalds of their time and they ushered in the eras of Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan and George W Bush respectively. Many of them are those very same New Left DFHs still up to their old tricks.
We allow them to breed discontent and spread sophistry and lies within our ranks at our own peril.
They’ve already set up their 527 that and worked hard to not get democrats elected in the midterms (yes, the one where republicans went +70 in the house and tilted the policy agenda far right). Now they’re hard at work at bringing up a primary challenge to the democratic president. At the same time Hamsher and Greenwald keep going on the network circuit pretending to be the democratic base, pretending to represent the “left” in this country. Like it always was, it’s not about values but about building the personal brand, establishing yourself as a provincial power and making some cash.
http://blog.reidreport.com/2011/05/firebaggers-genius-plan-to-primary-obama/
debbie
@ Rihilism:
That’s why I stopped reading him. At this point there’s more snide remarks and dripping sarcasm than there is thoughtful content, and it’s just not worth reading anymore.
kay
@13th Generation:
That isn’t a legal argument. It’s an opinion. Alternately, it’s a character attack designed to discredit Obama’s present and future actions, preemptively, to you, the reader or listener. The only vaguely “legal” part of that statement is that it sounds like something a (bad) prosecuter would say.
“It seems clear” is classic bullshit. I love, love, love the qualifier on “clear”, by the way. Most people just throw in “clear”, which is itself a weasel word, designed to stop you from thinking any further (it’s clear! no further thought necessary!) but he wants to leave himself a wiggle little room.
Stop dressing it up in a legal framework. That isn’t where it belongs. It’s punditry. Opinion. It may well be worthwhile or interesting opinion, but it’s one person’s opinion.
kay
@13th Generation:
She objected to this statement. Specifically. You’re doing exactly what you’re accusing her of doing. You’re listing the reasons she shouldn’t object to the statement, based on the totality of the work or, alternately, the work’s value.
Why is that tactic valid in defense of GG but not valid in defense of Obama? Why would I temper any problems I had with one piece of GG’s work with his whole career, and not use the same analysis for everyone else, including Obama?
cleek
gg;dr
AxelFoley
@dollared:
Obots? And you complain about eemom being rude to you. Get the fuck outta here with your little fee-fees.
Y’know what, though? I’m gonna embrace the shit outta that attempted slur.
Obamamus Prime: Obamabots! Transform and Roll Out!
Obamabots wage their battle to destroy the evil forces of the Republicons
Pragmatists! Obots in disguise!
Frankensteinbeck (The ex-Uloborus)
@13th Generation:
The biggest problem is that Greenwald has not done all that much to call attention to the erosion of civil liberties. Not since Bush left office, at the least. Having seen what he does after, I wonder even about then.
Greenwald has done enormous amounts to call attention to fake civil liberties issues. He *makes them up*. He does it by assembling a few facts, adding a bunch of rumors as if they were facts, and leaving out all of the contrary facts and any context. He is fantastically good at it. He is the most skilled and effective ratfucker the liberal side has, because so many people actually believe him and his lies become commonly accepted truths. Even the ones who think he’s going too far when he declares that he can read minds get suckered into his half-truths and think he’s made a sound argument when he hasn’t.
Greenwald is very much the enemy. He is the ultimate concern troll, attacking liberal causes from the inside.
Arguing like this is what they teach you to do in law school. It’s what you’re supposed to do in court, and not supposed to do to people who look to you as an expert.
Rihilism
@Mnemosyne: Don’t know what Obama and Bibi are up to, but I’m imagining those marines are getting ready for a slow dance…
AxelFoley
@Danny:
Thanks for the link, Danny.
SMH @ their foolishness. And their supporters wonder why they get ridiculed.
The Raven
I think Obama’s cautious incrementalism may serve him well internationally, and may serve the international situation in the Middle East well.
Is not it possible to believe that Obama is wrong and doing a bad job in some policy areas, yet doing a good job in others, without hating America? Must all criticism of a sitting President be treated as lèse majesté?
The Raven
Following on that, this thought: if one treats all criticism of a ruler as a result of personal animosity, there is no need to engage the substance of any criticisms. This has been a feature of US political discourse since Nixon at least. I find it profoundly undemocratic, and wonder why it gets so little notice.
arguingwithsignposts
@The Raven: I think that is a two-way street. It is possible to defend a president’s policy position or political tactic without being a blind servant to a “dear leader.”
kay
@The Raven:
Oh, give me a break. It “seems clear” Obama “isn’t ever” driven by “principled concern” or “injustice” in I/P issues?
What is that? It’s one person’s opinion. It has no more weight, legal or otherwise, than ellaesther’s opinion, certainly.
It isn’t “hate”, what she wrote, or protecting a “ruler”. She disagrees. She has an informed opinion of her own. The nerve of her, right?
lol
@Mark S.:
It’s very easy for Greenwald to sacrifice his “short-term interests” to the altar of purity by electing Republicans when he’ll never have to endure the consequences.
Mark S.
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
Greenwald is trying to be MLK or Gandhi?
@lol:
His marriage is a “short-term interest”? If you’re married, why don’t you try running that by your spouse?
Ghanima Atreides
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther: /shrug
Greenwald is a self declared civil libertarian.
From my Unified Field Theory of Libertarianism
Danny
@The Raven:
No. Absolutely not.
But me actually hanging out at e.g. FDL, reading their front page bloggers, engaging in discussion with the FDL community and discussing the merits of e.g. Greenwalds usual complaints earns me the right to say that the FDL community is at best the same New Left remnants that got Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan and George W Bush elected by waging civil war within the progressive movement, and at worst Hamsher trying to earn a quick buck.
Trying to be fair, they do solid reporting at times and some contributors are more fair than others.
But in general, when it comes to covering the Obama administration you get about as much fairness and facts reading FDL as you do watching Glenn Beck. You got 5% truth, and 95% of assuming bad faith, fallacies, conspiracy theories and general fact-challenged sophistry.
And that’s the bloggers. The community and commenters are about Obama hate, that’s about it. “Ok, so Obama is a fascist & corporate tool and a murderer, what else is new”. That’s your generic FDL comment.
Cat Lady
@arguingwithsignposts:
Of course it is. Every GG thread here ends up devolving whereby his swarm of minions come here to insist that GG’s 99.99% Right About Everything and is the best legal mind evah! but accuse us of blind allegiance to Dear Leader with no apparent sense of self-awareness, irony or humor. It’s as predictable as it is fun to watch.
Danny
@AxelFoley:
Yep. And they do need to be thoroughly ridiculed. There’s a use for a principled left-wing within the movement, but it should be serious, fair and do the hard work of forwarding progressive values and interests. FDL and GG aren’t doing that.
Ghanima Atreides
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther: I want to run this by you….have you thought….that Obama is trying to steer Israel to the two-state because he realizes that American power is declining in the ME, and America will not be able to protect Israel in the future?
Because its obvious to me (given the regional hatred of Israel which is exponential since the start of the blockade of Gazans) that Israel won’t last 20 seconds without US patronage.
The egyptian foreign minister quietly and permanently opened the Rafah crossing two weeks ago–I’m pretty sure that is a treaty violation of the Israel/Egypt standing treaty. What did we hear?
crickets.
Because America is increasingly powerless to shape outcomes in the ME.
In september when the gen. assembly of the UN votes on Palestinian statehood, its going to be a crushing and terrifying humiliation for Israel, if Obama can’t preshape some sort of two-state solution.
Bibi probably knows this but he is psychologically and politically unable to accept it. That is why he staged a public blow-up over something he already discussed with Hillary and been warned about.
Emma
Raven: If you have read this blog to any extent, you will have seen some serious, and sometimes vicious, criticism of Obama’s actions. His actions are fair game. Also, pointing out that maybe his actions are limited by his political and/or constitutional options, is an acceptable response.
What is not, IMO ,is the passing of moral judgments on insufficient evidence. We don’t know what is going on in Obama’s heart. We don’t know what is going on in anyone’s heart other than our own, and even there, we sometimes lie to ourselves. Greenwald’s easy assumption that he does, especially in Obama’s case, is what turns so many people off.
He did something I don’t agree with =/= he has no moral compass.
Danny
@Frankensteinbeck (The ex-Uloborus):
Except he isn’t a “liberal”. He’s a civil libertarian, and one starts to wonder if he is maybe a libertarian period.
Yes, a concern troll with a platform to peddle his sophistry. Exactly.
mk3872
PLEASE don’t quote Glennwald. He’s a self-righteous pig and even when Obama is right on an issue, which Obama clearly is on his stance with Israel, Glennwald feels the need to say things like this:
Glennwald is so sure of his own ability to judge someone and to be able know your own character, that he feels absolutely comfortable with such statements.
I dare you to try and question Glennwald on that assertion. He’ll throw a classic “civil libertarian” rant on ya.
Mark S.
@Ghanima Atreides:
Israel has nuclear weapons and I would bet on their military vs. any other in the region.
@Danny:
He is a libertarian, just a lot more liberal than the clowns who write for Reason. He supports the legalization of all drugs.
Danny
@Mark S.:
Oh a libertarian you say… as in one of those guys that vote tea party and think that the PPACA is socialism.
THE
I’ll second what Mark S just said and add:
With the recent discovery of major natural gas reserves in Israeli territory, It is doubtful that the US govt. has any more economic leverage over Israel. Israel could easily decline any further US aid and pursue its own independent policy. This needs to be remembered when you observe Netanjahu’s intransigence. He doesn’t see any need to make deals with Obama unless they are really in Israel’s interests.
I believe this is a major new factor influencing Israeli self-confidence.
Mandramas
@Mark S.: Nuclear bombing on neighborhood countries are not an sane option, i’m afraid. It is more a large scale deterrent.
Frankensteinbeck (The ex-Uloborus)
@Danny:
I only use the word ‘liberal’ because so many liberals think he’s arguing from their side. I completely agree. He’s your standard ‘government is always evil’ libertarian.
arguingwithsignposts
@THE:
So let them do it.
Danny
@THE:
But economic aid isn’t the main benefit of being best buddies with the top dog. Access to our military technology, our deterent capability, our veto in the UNSC and our international clout – those are the things that we provide, and which should give us some leverage with Israel.
But sadly it’s quite obvious from Bibis behavior that he feels that it is Israel that has leverage with us, not the other way around. The reason why that should be is however a bit unclear…
Danny
@Frankensteinbeck (The ex-Uloborus):
I suspected that :) Couldn’t let an opportunity of GG bashing pass by though.
THE
@arguingwithsignposts:
I think it is inevitable in the next few years.
Sarah Proud and Tall
@cleek:
I saw what you did there.
Svensker
@eemom:
Thanks for playing. Please do criticize Glenn again for claiming to know what’s in other peoples’ minds and hearts and what motivates them.
Dan
There is a tendency among people who are dismissive of Israel’s security concerns to point to Israel’s advantage of having a nuclear deterrent, which is funny because these same people often argue either that Israel should give up its nuclear weapons or that countries like Iran should not be stopped from developing their own.
I will say it again, I believe in the need for a peace agreement something generally along the lines of the ’67 borders, but I think it is insane not to acknowledge the risk that israel will be taking in making this deal. The post-agreement israel will be less than 15 miles across in the middle. I don’t care how strong/well-funded their military is, that is going to be tough to defend.
THE
@Danny:
I agree, but I still believe USA and Israel could have a more “arms length” relationship in the future.
There are other interesting issues too: If aid to Israel was ended, what about aid to Egypt?
eemom
@Svensker:
Same to you, dearie. Because you know all about how “moral” I am.
Shoemaker-Levy 9
@fasteddie9318:
Don’t get me wrong, that isn’t my moral, ethical, and pragmatic calculus of how the world should be run, it’s the bipartisan consensus amongst our Galtian Overlords.
dollared
@kay: Um, because Obama’s responsiblity and accountability is greater than that of an online pundit? So people’s lives and the future health of the democracy depends on whether Obama leaves in place surveillance practices and legal constructs that would allow us to turn into a banana republic in the hands of the next Dick Cheney?
And Greenwald is a guy writing on deadline who has to make a living defending your civil rights?
The Raven
@kay: Greenwald is writing about US policy towards Israel, and supporting Obama’s position in this case. You, and many of the other commentators here, have seized on the dislike as the most important thing about the article and Greenwald. Apparently the king can do no wrong.
Let’s have a bit more of the article:
Danny
@dollared:
Which means that he gets to consider his words for up to several days before putting them out there, in contrast to someone who has a camera stuck under his nose as soon as he walks out the door.
Yes, the burden of making money.
I’ll probably regret this but what was the number one thing that GG did for my civil rights this last year or so? What was his most important piece of investigative reporting re: the Obama administration?
Ghanima Atreides
@Mark S.: Israel has nuclear weapons and I would bet on their military vs. any other in the region.
oh please. If Israel is the first to use nukes the Israelis are all instant dead anyways. They might have nukes but they can never use them.
and see for yourself
The standing armies of just the border states + Iran are 3 arabs to 1 israeli, and Egypt, Jordan, KSA and Lebabanon have the same USA style mecha.
Mark S.
@Ghanima Atreides:
That’s assuming they all fought together (Iran? They’re not exactly buddies with all those other countries). Even when they did fight together, they’ve gotten their asses kicked.
And of course Israel wouldn’t use their nukes in a first strike. They might, however, use them as a last resort. That’s why countries have nukes.
kay
@The Raven:
Oh, baloney. I did nothing of the sort. I read it, so you don’t have to read it to me. Ellaesther disagreed with Greenwald, politely, specifically and rationally, and the Greenwald Defense Team sprung into action, telling her she was “hating” or some such nonsense.
That’s all I said. She can disagree with him. I can disagree with him. It’s permitted.
Because what he is writing is opinion.
arguingwithsignposts
@The Raven: So when did Greenwald become an I/P expert? No offense, but civil libertarian drip-under-pressure-ism does not equal I/P drip-under-pressure-ism.
kay
@dollared:
So I owe him gratitude, now, too, in addition to the proper level of deference and I am to refrain from pointing out that this is his opinion and not fact or law? For “defending my civil rights”?
Are you out of your mind? Are you like with this with all the writers you read and agree with, or just this one? Grateful?
arguingwithsignposts
@dollared:
Wait, wut?
kay
@arguingwithsignposts:
He has to make a living doing that. Has to. Because of me and my civil rights :)
Otherwise, he would be free. Really, it’s for me.
The Raven
@arguingwithsignposts: “So when did Greenwald become an I/P expert?”
It took me a while to figure out that by “I/P” you meant Israeli policy. But what has he said that’s new, or even obscure?
Having just reviewed your posts in this thread, I note that this is your first word to “defend a president’s policy position or political tactic.”
We welcome the new overlords of our democracy! Oh, wait…
The Raven
@kay: “I read it, so you don’t have to read it to me.”
And chose to respond to the personal criticism of Obama, rather than the policy issues Greenwald cited, as did Ellaesther.
Greenwald was, as you know, if you read the article, giving grudging credit to Obama. Based on the content of this thread I see nothing that indicates that Greenwald’s critics here are responding to anything but the personal criticism of Obama.
I am very much concerned that as a nation the United States shows signs of abandoning its democratic ideals in its unquestioning defense of its political leaders, and I find distressing evidence of it in this thread. I could equally find evidence of it in the support for Bush II, and could even go back to Nixon and Reagan’s defenders.
I care about my country and her people more than my President. It very much saddens me that it appears this is a minority opinion, and that it requires an explanation.