The doddering old fool who predicted the rapture is now revising his estimate to the Fall, giving us all another opportunity to point and laugh. And I agree with Dan Savage that it’s right to point and laugh, because these fuckers derive not a small bit of pleasure from imagining that the rest of us are going to die and suffer while we’re at it. There’s a whole lot of cruelty packed into their wacko fantasy, and there’s nothing wrong with ridiculing a crazy delusion that’s one part biblical spare parts, one part deadly sperm buildup, and one part bloodlust.
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[…] as I predicted. « QOTD | […]
kerFuFFler
Perfectly put!
geg6
Well, since I have no trouble pointing and laughing at all religion and religious, this guy’s a pretty easy target for me. And I fail to see, frankly, any difference between this guy and, say, the Southern Baptists. Or even the religion of my tradition, Catholicism. It’s all the same bullshit, wishing death and eternal suffering on all who choose not to believe the men behind the curtain.
Cermet
In one aspect they are right – the amerikan way of life (read cheap oil for us (or is that U.S.?)) IS coming to an end – see http://www.theoildrum.com/node/7949#more
Looks like we are at a cusp and the amerikan middle class is doomed – at least the top 1% will only get more wealthy as we starve … .
Ken
“..one part biblical spare parts, one part deadly sperm buildup, and one part bloodlust.”
That is one beautiful tagline. Thank you.
Omnes Omnibus
@Cermet: Is there a reason that you always spell American with a “k”?
Crashman
But one of Sully’s readers says that they were actually trying to save us, so you know, we should give them a break.
moonbat
Don’t forget that this evil old man also cleaned up to the tune of 70 million dollars in donations from the gullible idiots who are panting to see the end of the world. So not only is he vicious, he’s a vicious entrepreneur! Point and laugh at his followers until they feel foolish giving this fraud any more money.
geg6
@Crashman:
Yeah, I read that piece of stupidity. Bullshit. These assholes get off on the idea of people being tortured for eternity. It’s the only thing that they take pleasure from. Disgusting creatures, almost all of them.*
*Just to be clear once again, I don’t see any difference between this guy and any other religious figure. None. They are all torture pron fetishists.
Bill H.
Their delusion, their sense of self satisfaction, is the deeply evil belief that they know something that the rest of us do not. They are special, chosen.
They deserve neither pity nor ridicule. They are not funny. They are narcissistic and evil.
Swellsman
About 5 or 6 years ago a woman came to me (I was temporarily working as a real estate broker) and asked me to find a vacant piece of property where she could build a home. I found something that seemed to suit her needs, and a week later drove her out to see it.
She told me a lot of crazy things while I was showing her the property, but one of the craziest was when she asked me how far away the ocean was. Thinking that proximity to the ocean was a selling point, I told her that the ocean was less than 10 miles away “as the crow flies,” but that in order to get there from the property it would be more like a 15 – 20 miles drive. (She would have had to drive south, then east, then north again).
“I’m not sure that will work for me,” she told me, “because the End Times are almost upon us.”
“The End Times?”
“Yes. Soon the ocean will turn to blood and all the creatures within it will die. Those of us who will not be Saved will be left here on Earth to fend for ourselves. I already know that I won’t be Saved, and I don’t want to live too close to the Ocean of Blood.”
I truly did not know what to say to that, but I tell people that story all the time because I think it is fairly unique. Usually, when people tell you about the Biblical Armageddon, they already know that they are going to be Saved and the rest of us are all going to Hell.
But this woman was certain that — while the Biblical Armageddon was coming — she was certain to be damned too. There are a lot of “End Times Fundamentalists” around here, but this was the only one I ever met who had decided that she was not going to be on the winning side.
Omnes Omnibus
@geg6: Trying to start a fight this early in the morning isn’t nice.
shortstop
Tasty.
shortstop
@geg6: I didn’t realize you were anti-Catholicism. I don’t think I’ve ever seen you mention it.
gnomedad
Hey, Rocky! Watch me predict Judgment Day!
Omnes Omnibus
@Swellsman: Historically, most Calvinists believed that very few were among the elect and that, as a result, most people including themselves were going to be damned. Worldly success might be a sign that one was going to be saved, but it might not. Also, even if one was among the elect, it was probable that your parents, brothers and sisters, spouse, and children were not.
shortstop
@Swellsman: No matter what the buyer’s particular thing is, it’s all about location, location, location.
reflectionephemeral
“The Turner Diaries” and “Left Behind” both spring from the same impulse– fantasies of vindication and suffering just around the corner– and it seems like these folks aren’t very different.
geg6
@Omnes Omnibus:
Not trying to start a fight. Just saying that I don’t see any difference between this guy and the Pope, or the Archbishop of Canterbury, or the head of the Southern Baptist Convention, or the Al-Sauds and Wahhabism.
@shortstop:
Not anti-Catholic. Anti-religion. All of them.
Omnes Omnibus
@geg6: And you don’t expect that to start a fight? Naive.
shortstop
Slightly OT, I have a couple of friends who survived an extremely wacky bible college and have lots of funny and/or painful stories to tell. One of my favorites involves rapture practical joking: Just before one of your friends is due to come back to the dorm, everyone evacuates, leaving on lights, music, blow dryers, etc., to make the person think he or she was left behind. Apparently there was no limit to the number of times some people would fall for this and completely freak out.
shortstop
@geg6: Oh, yeah, you mentioned that.
Mnemosyne
@geg6:
It’s a little more complicated than that, because they can never get rid of the haunting fear that they’re wrong and that they are the ones who will end up being tortured for eternity:
That’s one of the reasons they cling so tightly to it — the desperate fear that it’s going to happen to them. In other words, and as always, it’s projection.
Ryan S
Great now someone else annoying has discovered the utility of Friedman Units
geg6
@Omnes Omnibus:
Now, why would that start a fight? It’s my opinion. I realize not everyone shares it, but why must religionists feel the need to fight with me about it? Why not just ignore my posts on the subject?
I’m stating my opinion. If someone doesn’t like it, fine. But to start a fight with me over an opinion that took me 20 or 30 years of experience and research to reach? Not my problem. Seems like it’s the person who thinks they can argue me out of that opinion that would be starting the fight.
gnomedad
@Ryan S:
Haha, win!
shortstop
@Ryan S: Nice!
And notice that he didn’t reschedule it for two or three weeks from now. No, we’re all going to get to enjoy the summer, so isn’t this all for the best?
Roger Moore
@geg6:
No wonder waterboarding seems like a good idea to them.
Crashman
I hope someone follows up with him on October 22nd, after nothing happens for a third time. Is he going to be “baffled” again like he was this time? How will he explain it away again?
Omnes Omnibus
@geg6: Whatever. It’s your opinion and you make sure that, every time religion is mentioned on this blog, you make clear that you think that religious people are either con men or dupes. My personal religious beliefs are probably closer to yours than those of the active believers who post and comment here, but I don’t see a reason to try to insult them for having a belief that I do not have. I see it as counterproductive. You obviously do not. I find in your face anti-religiosity as unappealing as in your face religiosity. YMMV and obviously does.
Ryan S
@geg6: They’re new age flagellats (sp?).
geg6
@Roger Moore:
Why not? After all, it’s a fine old tradition in the Catholic Church.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15886834
geg6
@Omnes Omnibus:
Just fighting fire with fire. Would that more people would. Then perhaps none of us would ever again have to cry out “Would no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?”
SFAW
That’s ’cause he’s probably not a software “engineer”.
Anyway, for some reason, Camping reminds me of Bullwinkle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Setl4HmGsUA
Mandramas
@geg6: I’m with you, but you will need to use better ammunition if you want to start a fight.
shortstop
@geg6: Um, well, you will recall that the result of that line was that the priest was murdered. I also clearly remember one of your recent tirades against the CC hierarchy in which you insisted (doubling down when challenged) that you would “gladly kill them all.”
Is it possibly time to get (or continue to get) some professional help with this, geg6 ? What you describe as having happened to you is truly horrifying and indisputably permanently damaging, but the level of vitriol you continuously spew doesn’t make me think you’re dealing with it very well — especially after three decades. Please try to think of your own health rather than focusing on that of the people who wronged you.
shecky
As stupid as this whole thing was,I give these nuts a little respect for following up their faith with the chance to look like buffoons.
I have an old acquaintance on Facebook, a RC priest these days, who had been smugly mocking the doomers and their misguided religious beliefs. But at least they have the balls to put their crazyness out on display for the world to laugh, instead of professing a faith that can neither be proven nor debunked. All while still believing in their own religious exclusivity and superiority over the rest of misguided (and worse) humanity, whose incantations and sacrifices will earn them a special place next to the magical bearded guy in the sky.
Villago Delenda Est
“Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest”. Denis Diderot
Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac
It’s all fun and games until someone tries to beat the rapture by taking things into their own hands.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/05/while_harold_camping_sits_safe.php
geg6
@shortstop:
LOL! Really? I need professional help? Because I hate religion? LOL!
My mental health is just fine, thanks. I can have my former therapist verify that for you, if you wish. Meanwhile, Bill Maher and I will just stand back and watch as the religionists kill each other, pointing and laughing.
Despising religion is not, as you seem to think, a mental illness. Fighting against their propaganda is not a commitment-worthy behavior. In fact, I’d argue it’s the other way around. And, honestly, I don’t think I’ll have to kill them all (if I actually said exactly that–probably more like I wish they’d all die a horrible death and sooner rather than later), as they’ll most likely do it to themselves.
Lately, I don’t even find religion frightening or something to fear. I find it more laughable than anything. I mean, seriously…beatifying JPII? Predicting the Rapture? OBL with his pron stash? A fucking clown car worthy of the GOP.
shortstop
@Villago Delenda Est: Shrug…and then there will be someone else who tries to rule, control, oppress through self-assigned authority. ‘Twas ever thus with humans; the question is how we achieve and maintain freedom and autonomy in the face of that tendency, ’cause it ain’t going away.
geg6
@Villago Delenda Est:
Now that I can get behind.
And with that, I’m outta this thread. Too many religionists and their apologists taking themselves waaaaaaaaaay too seriously.
shortstop
@geg6:
No. Because you repeatedly wish violence against the people you hate.
Do you understand the difference?
Have never thought that, never said that, and never will. It is, however, possible to despise religion without letting hatred of religionists completely consume and damage you.
Do you understand the difference?
You did. And continued to say it with increasing vehemence while being repeatedly invited by several people to clarify.
Ain’t healthy, geg6. And I don’t really think you’re going to start slaughtering folks — the person whose health I’m worried about is you, because you’ve so obviously let this define your life and thinking.
geg6
@shortstop:
Again, nothing but lulz here. You don’t know me. At all. Not even an iota. And you think this defines me. Because you read it on the internet in a thread or two about religion.
Just goes to show that the internet is not the real world.
And with that, I really am outta here. Don’t need assholes on the internet piously calling for me to seek help for shit I say on the internet.
shortstop
@geg6:
A thread or two or at least a hundred…and I don’t even get here that often.
But if I’m wrong about this being of such central importance to you, I’m glad, and look forward to seeing other sides of you in future threads.
Ryan S
@geg6: Hey, Haven’t you learned yet no one likes an uppity atheist. Learn you place, and give the religious their right of way. They killed and ostracized a lot of people to get where they are.
Roger Moore
@shortstop:
And that’s not at all a property of religious people? Unfortunately, our world seems to accept that predicting everyone you hate will burn forever in a lake of molten sulfur is sane and healthy, while asking the people who make those predictions to STFU is dangerous.
Sly
“Nothing should be denied the blessed that belongs to the perfection of their beatitude. Now everything is known the more for being compared with its contrary, because when contraries are placed beside one another they become more conspicuous. Wherefore in order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned.”
So wrote Thomas Aquinas, the father of Christian ethics, in his Summa Theologica (part iii, Q94).
In other words, not new. And at the risk of picking a fight, Camping (and the like) is probably closer to the beliefs of 2nd or 3rd century Christians (when the coming apocalypse was all the rage) than those of the majority of mainstream, modern Christians.
And, unfortunately, mainstream, modern Christians will not take this as the compliment that it clearly is. You mean to tell me that we’re nothing like a bunch of wild-eyed apocalyptic cultists hiding out in various Roman cities during the late Iron Age? FUCK YOU!
Ryan S
Ohh and fucked a lot of boys… a lot…
Karmakin
Re: Religion, the problem is the privilege. What geg is saying isn’t any worse (or really any better) than the tenets of basically all the monotheistic religions we have in our world. But for some reason we think that’s worse than “Thou shalt have no god before me”. That’s the privilege I’m talking about.
And they use that same privilege to trap the poor, to oppress women and homosexuals, etc.
Growing up, I was like that woman. I was only 10. But I read the bible. I was told it was literally true and I believed it, so I believed all that end times stuff. It actually wasn’t from my parents, who are not really religious at all, it was just something that was expected in my family. And I enjoyed the community expression, the singing, the songs.
But, I read. Avid reader really. I started reading before I started school. And so I read the bible. And I believed it. And these guys on TV were saying that the bible said that this stuff would happen, and it was right there!
And I wasn’t perfect. I got scared and lied sometimes, (I was actually terrified of loud noises. I’d skip school if I thought there would be a fire drill, so if I saw a fire truck around I wouldn’t go) I’d steal a quarter out of a jar for a candy bar sometimes.
So I thought it was coming and I was damned.
Even though I’m an atheist I still listen for the horns.
What gets me about all this, is that we see “mainstream” Christians saying no no….WE DON’T KNOW WHEN THIS WILL HAPPEN. They’re not saying that the concept is vile and evil and horrific and untrue. No, they’re saying that we can’t know when the demon is going to come back and raise unholy havoc. And they worship him.
No wonder people get so upset about this stuff.
Years ago, when I started investigating atheism (which was extremely healthy for me), back on the old alt.atheism newsgroup, someone mentioned that the proper thing to do if the Christian god existed, as futile as it might be would be to oppose him with everything you had.
That’s what I feel about the “rapture”.
danimal
Ya know, all religions aren’t the same. A universalist Christian, for example, isn’t going to preach hellfire like a Southern Baptist. Faith sustains a lot of people because they are drawn to places where love and grace abound. The divisive and spiteful preachers don’t speak for all persons in a particular faith.
There are legions of terrible religionists of all faiths, so I understand your skepticism/anger, but your brush is a bit too broad to be very effective or convincing.
shortstop
@Roger Moore: It IS a property of religious people throughout history–of course it is. Please understand that this is not a zero-sum situation; you will find dozens, if not hundreds, of threads in which I have strongly condemned the crimes of organized religion and its followers.
I deplore this shit in them and I deplore it in everyone else. I’m not asking her to STFU. I’m telling her that she’s a broken record on this particular topic, and that wishing death and violence on others isn’t more acceptable when it comes from a non-religionist.
This really isn’t that hard. It’s entirely possible to call someone out for something without being an “apologist” for someone else.
Sloegin
For the bible set in this thread, I’d throw a little Matthew 7:15 out there, and also note that this whole Rapture gig is a modern Christian heresy invented in the 1850s. (It’s not that hard to research, just wack your google.)
I sometimes wonder if it would be better if fundies actually were fundies and bothered to read their bibles; but their thinking in all sorts of endeavors (religion, math, science, politics, etc) is just plain muddled, ignorant, infantile, and wrong.
gex
@Omnes Omnibus: It is becoming a bit problematic for me here in Minnesota to treat even well meaning, peaceful Christians with respect. I got into a debate about SSM with a Christian who was very respectful of me, wants me to have equal rights, but insists that marriage cannot be granted to gays. No argument reached him because he believes we are a Christian nation and that the Bible specifically forbids gays from marriage. Just stops the conversation. He was really nice and really gentle. And he left me wanting to bite a bullet out of frustration.
@Ryan S: Heh.
alwhite
Ya know that line about history repeating itself? Yeah, about that, check out what the Millerites went through during the “Great Awakening” in 1843 – it will sound very familiar.
What is missing from the historical record is what happened to all the dipsticks that gave everything away & then had nothing after the many dates chosen in succession finally passed. It must have been ugly for a lot of folks.
Omnes Omnibus
@gex: Ask him if his shirt is a poly-cotton blend or if his nice sweater is cotton/cashmere. Mention that if either of these is the case, the Bible mandates the death penalty. Shellfish are forbidden, also too.
Me, I just tend to have a problem with dogmatism; religious, anti-religious, Greewaldian, anti-Greenwaldian, etc.
Chris
@Sloegin:
In my experience, fundies “invent” new morals to tack onto Christianity just as much as any regular denomination. There’s nothing in the Bible about abortion, for instance: nothing against dancing or drinking (and a lot to suggest that Jesus was fine with the latter): etc, etc, etc.
Near as I can tell, fundies are people who claim “we’re just strictly following the Bible” not because they are (they’re obviously not) but simply because they can’t be bothered to come up with an actual doctrine. Much easier to simply yell “Jesus would’ve wanted this!” loudly and often than to actually come up with a coherent argument against drinking, dancing, or abortion.
“Constitutional originalism” works the same way, which partly explains why the two groups overlap so much.
Roger Moore
@Sloegin:
Having actually read the Bible cover to cover, I can see why so many “fundamentalists” don’t bother. The Bible manages to be at turns dead boring, incomprehensible, and inconsistent. In some cases it manages to be more than one of those things simultaneously. Getting through it, even in a modern English translation that doesn’t require additional explication to make up for its antique language, is a dull, painful slog that’s more likely to leave you bewildered than enlightened. It’s a hell of a lot easier to let somebody else do the reading and trust them about what it says.
And for all that people like finding a message of peace in the Bible, that’s not the main message I got. The reason wingnuts like the Bible so much, especially the Old Testament, is because its full of nasty, wingnutty bits. I think that’s a good reason to ignore the whole lot of rubbish, but I can see how somebody who takes it seriously would think we should kill teh ghey and commit genocide against our foreign enemies.
shortstop
@Chris:
Bingo — have often thought the same thing. It’s amazing how many people claim the one true reading, insisting that they’re doing no interpretation and accusing everyone else of taking liberties.
Emma
Atheists and fundamentalists share the trait of wanting to enjoy the suffering of those who disagree with them. They also share the trait of being insufferably smug about their own superiority. The similarities outweigh the differences.
Me, I signed on to Heinlein’s dictum: “There is no conclusive evidence of life after death, but there is no evidence of any sort against it. Soon enough you will know, so why fret about it?” . Amazing what leaving all that behind does for one.
shortstop
@Emma: Meh. The majority of American atheists just want to be left alone and live under a non-theocratic government.
Roger Moore
@Omnes Omnibus:
Neither of those things are true. The Bible only specifically mentions cloth woven from wool and linen and, IIRC, specifically mentions this being a problem if the warp is of one fiber and the woof of another. Some people who take expansive readings take this to mean that any cloth with a blend of fibers is forbidden, but that’s not the literal word of the Bible. And the section in question only says that you’re not supposed to wear the stuff without any specific penalty attached to the offense. Most of these kinds of laws only make the guilty party ineligible to participate in religious ceremonies until he’s purified himself, though violating that rule is punishable by death.
ruemara
As a former fundie, I just wish Harold Camping would just go away. I am glad to have thrown off the shackles of paranoia that being raised in a household where Family Radio was on 24/7 and Camping was treated as a valid preacher left on my mind. Good riddance to bad rubbish. He steals the life and the money from his followers and his views are entirely unscriptural. It should horrify any true believer how much Camping is mocking God with his predictions.
Omnes Omnibus
@Roger Moore: So going to church while wearing improperly woven clothing is punishable by death? That is good enough for the purposes I suggest. Also, when you read the whole book, was it in translation or in the various original languages? I tend to believe that translation errors and imperfections over time have had an effect on what the Bible says.
Ryan S
@Emma: The only way that can be surmised to be true is if you equate religious truth with scientific truth. Would you agree?
Felinious Wench
@gex:
You know…talk to an Episcopalian. I understand the vast bulk of what everyone sees in the news as “Christian” is the Fundies and Rapturists, but the Episcopalians in my city compromise a large contingent of our gay pride parade and constantly speak out against this evil shit. We’re the ones inviting everyone to our cathedral to teach. Muslims! Jews! Catholics! Eastern Orthodox! Buddhists! Pentecostals! And guess what? Athiests too! Yes! Because all of this crap on this thread is exactly why we need to respect each other’s beliefs.
My Christian belief compels me to action against social injustice, bigotry, violence, and the other BS our society loves to spew. The End Times is a paranoid delusion built on the back of Revelations, which is a metaphorical vision about Roman conquest and cruelty, not a guide for planning out your future. And yes, I’m a Christian! Wow!
Good lord, people. We’re not all a bunch of frothing idiots wanting to invade your wombs and looking forward to watching you roast in a hell that I don’t even believe in.
trollhattan
@Swellsman:
“Close to shopping; not too close to the Ocean of Blood” would be the most awesome subdivision advertising slogan of all time (including the End Times(tm) ).
I don’t often laugh out loud at the news, but after hearing one of Herr Camping’s minions say he hoped they’d be returning his and the other believers’ money after the latest rapture didn’t materialize, I scared the dog with my outburst.
It’s ALWAYS about the money, then the power and influence over others. All these loons were missing were matching tennis shoes and a comet.
And may I add: the Lutherans did a very poor job preparing me for these many brands of True Christians scrapping with one another to run the country.
shortstop
@ruemara: I never even heard of this guy until all of this. Which is, I suppose, the point. Six months of extra fundraising for Harold!
Brachiator
It was a bit weird to listen to callers to a radio show use Biblical verse to refute the Rapture People. The screener didn’t allow anyone on who might say that all religion is bunk, so all the believers were just variations on the crazy.
jrg
@Emma:
Give me a break. Science is the reason you’re not living in a mosquito infested mud hut.
Many athiests are convinced of their superiority because the search for knowledge (unencumbered by Voodoo bullshit) has created measurable improvements in our quality of life.
So, if you’re not convinced that reason-based thinking is superior, I urge you to wander into a swamp and pray for medicine. Maybe the baby Jesus will fly down and cure your malaria.
BDeevDad
I’m waiting for someone to be actually held accountable for their crazy statements feeding into the craziness of others. For example, Camping needs to be held accountable to this family.
BDeevDad
@Emma:
Please see an argument from ignorance aka an informal logical fallacy.
Omnes Omnibus
@jrg: She did not say anything about science, did she? She only mentioned atheists and fundamentalists. You appear to be operating on a belief that science necessarily negates religion and/or that religious belief must require the rejection of science. This is not necessarily the case.
catclub
@Swellsman: Kind of like the people who recover memories of past lives when they were insignificant nobodies – surprisingly rare!
grandpajohn
@Chris: Fundamentalist are self proclaimed Christians whose bible consist only of the old testament books of law or the laws concerning the thou shalt nots, but nothing from the New testament.
But somehow the fact that the coming of the Christ did away with the old covenant and its laws and caused a new covenant to be formed that consisted of The new teachings of Jesus that we now were to be concerned with thou shalt do things like love thy brother as thyself,care for and provide for the needs of the poor, the sick, the needy, turn the other cheek, forgive the transgressions of others,or as he told the crowd that was to stone the adultress Let he who is without sin cast the first stone
The point is that just because someone calls themselves a Christian does not make it so.
As someone above pointed out most of us don’t like it when the pubs us a wide brush to paint every one the same, so why do we do it to others, does this not make us Hypocrites?
Daulnay
What I wonder is why people let Camping assume his prediction is wrong, “The Rapture happened last Saturday – what are you going to do now that you know you’re not one of the elect, Camping?”
As a techno-pagan, this stuff doesn’t have a lot of relevance to my life, except for its potential to generate mobs with pitchforks. I have had too many friends who are wonderful, kind Christians to condemn monotheistic religion, in spite of the obvious failings. There’s too obviously substantial good, too.
jrg
@Omnes Omnibus:
That’s because the very concept of “faith” negates science. If you believe something without any proof, simply because you __want__ it to be true stands in opposition to empirical thinking.
If you can provide me an example of religion without faith, I’ll accept your argument that religion and science are not at odds… But until then, it seems to me that religious and scientific thinking are mutually exclusive. Either you’re basing your beliefs on evidence, or you’re not.
Emma
jrp: And religion is to some extent the reason why your science progressed: See monastic libraries, manuscript preservation. For an example: http://www.bartleby.com/214/1902.html. But please note I did not say anything about science versus religion, having known a number of scientists who are also practicing members of their own religions and quite happy and undisturbed about what you see as a problem.
And all of you who seem to think that I will bow to your self-evident superiority: thank you for proving my argument.
catclub
@shortstop: “It IS a property of religious people throughout history—of course it is.”
And modern brain research shows that there are specific parts of human brains which respond to religious thoughts of various types. So thinking that religious people are different from ‘ordinary’ people is also a fallacy.
Chris
@Emma:
Nope.
I’d agree with you that there are intolerant, smug, superior atheists who enjoy the thought of watching others suffer – that’s pretty much humanity for you. There are also tons and tons of atheists who don’t fit the description. “Atheist” and “fundamentalist” are not equivalent to each other.
grandpajohn
@ruemara: This,
especially since if he is a real pastor, he knows that the bible expressly states that No man knoweth the day or hour, not even the angels in heaven nor even the son, but only the father knows. Matt 24:36
Beware of false prophets is another constant warning and personally I consider most all radio/TV preachers to be false prophets/conmen.
Emma
Shortstop: And so do I. I believe that the Constitution of the United States guarantees freedom of religion and freedom from religion.
” Ryan S: No, it isn’t. Please note that I am not making a claim about superiority, inferiority, or parity between science and religion. I am saying that it isn’t worth worrying about, in the sense of having either real or flame wars. Full stop. As a friend puts it: if I’m right, I’ll see my family again. If I’m wrong, I won’t know either way. And neither affects anyone else.
Felinious Wench
@jrg:
Never met a Jesuit, huh?
R-Jud
@Chris:
“Jesus fan fiction”, I call it.
Emma
Chris: I know, but there were some very wide brushes being used, and I wanted to respond in kind. Mea culpa, sometimes I enjoy bomb-throwing, but it was unfair.
catclub
@jrg: “If you can provide me an example of religion without faith, I’ll accept your argument that religion and science are not at odds… But until then, it seems to me that religious and scientific thinking are mutually exclusive. Either you’re basing your beliefs on evidence, or you’re not.”
The reading from John in the revised common lectionary has this passage: “14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; but if you do not, then believe me because of the works themselves.”
Those last two phrases.
Omnes Omnibus
@jrg: As Emma has noted many scientists are happily believers in a variety of religions. I would also note that the majority of mainstream faiths have no issue with scientific truths. Since they are dealing with fundamentally different aspects of the world, I do not see why they cannot coexist.
grandpajohn
@Chris: But Jesus did not teach the things that the fundamentalist are pushing, the laws they are taking from the bible are from the old testament, not the new. Jesus teaching are in the new testament and these fundamentalist list of sins are not covered in the new testament.
catclub
@Emma: see also, Islamic mathematicians, Islamic libraries,…
Josie
@Felinious Wench: Thank you. I have been sitting here trying to decide how to say this, but you did it much better than I ever could have.
Mandramas
@jrg: Faithless Religions: Confusianism. Zen Budism. Agnosticism.
grandpajohn
@Felinious Wench: Exactly, Many of our good posters here are doing exactly what they complain about the repubs doing, and painting everyone with the same broad brush. Not all religious denominations are fundamentalist in their thinking. As a Methodist, I know I go to church with people who are homosexuals,And they are welcome as anyone else who wants to attend regardless of creed, color of sexual preference. We are about practicing the real teachings of Jesus as found in the new testament. The cherry picking of certain laws and practices from the old testament to smear all christians is just as reprehensible as the repubs actions of cherry picking to smear blacks, latinos, homosexuals or democrats in general.
R-Jud
@grandpajohn: @grandpajohn: IIRC, Fundamentalists work around this by saying that since Jesus is God (while also being the Son of God), anything decreed by God in the OT is also decreed by Jesus.
Jesus, meanwhile, is all “I just wanted you to stop being a bunch of tribalistic jackholes. For the love of Me, knock it off already.”
Emma
CatClub: Indeed. Al-jabr, anyone?
Ryan S
@Emma: Of course you did. You said there are more similarities than differences. And just so you know I don’t care what you believe, believe in God or not it doesn’t make a difference to me. All I do know is that we currently live in a society in which its political suicide to say your an Atheist, but you can’t get elected if you don’t express your love of God at some point. It doesn’t matter if your a Dem or a Rep. Heaven forbid if anyone should point that out and refuse to back down. Then we’re being all smug and dogmatic. WTF
That seem to me at least to be the antithesis of what the constitution stood for.
Yeah, because we’re about to destroy our economy to people who’s religious tax cut philosophy is so dogmatic that even though many of them will on private admit that taxes need to go up. They have to zealously follow their believer base off the cliff.
Or we cant do anything about climate change because, god wouldn’t allow the temperature to rise, or we can’t have decent science education because someone might say the word “Evolution”.
shortstop
@catclub: Well, judging by their numbers, it could be argued that religious people are “ordinary” people and that we unbelievers are the strange ones. ;) There, that ought to spark some barks of outrage.
But I take your point. I immediately wished I’d said “some” religious people throughout history, but didn’t get back in time to edit; in any case, I was merely responding to Roger’s false assumption that because I condemned the embrace of violence by an atheist against a religionist, I was somehow denying the frequency with which religionists have committed or excused violence against those outside their particular tribe of belief.
Roger Moore
@Omnes Omnibus:
It was in translation; I don’t speak or read Hebrew or Greek. That said, I think the accumulated scribal and editing errors are likely to be at least as severe a problem as translating errors. Especially in the older books, there’s considerable disagreement about the actual text, including plenty of places where the received versions are clearly garbled beyond repair. There are also mystery words whose meaning is lost in the mists of time. So any translation is necessarily a patchwork of approximations and guesswork- but so is any reading in the original language. If there’s one thing I picked up by reading the Bible, it’s that anyone who is sure they know what it means is committing the sin of pride.
MonkeyBoy
Here is a favorite description I heard years ago:
shortstop
@Felinious Wench: That made me laugh.
grandpajohn
@Brachiator: Since the rapture and the apocalypse are events from the bible then why would not statements taken from the bible be the perfect source to debunk the conmans intentional lying about the events?
gex
@Emma: This atheist has become more vocal about her beliefs because for the last decade the religious in this country have been debating my civil rights in terms of scripture.
From my perspective, vocal atheism is a result of being pushed by the extremists on the other side. Whereas I used to be cool with religion, now I have a PTSD response whenever it is mentioned. It waged war on me, not the other way around.
Omnes Omnibus
@Roger Moore: The most I take from just about any religion is that they all seem to offer one general rule that, if it were actually followed, would make the world a much better place: Try not to be a shit to other people. The rest, as they say, is commentary.
Felinious Wench
@grandpajohn:
Yep. The experience of your church is the same experience of my Episcopalian church, and if it wasn’t, I WOULDN’T GO THERE!
I don’t have some delusional need for fantasy to make my life have meaning. I don’t think faith negates science; I’m a scientist myself. I’m also a liberal who finds my peers in my church and understands that we can combine our resources and our passion to make a real difference in our communities. I’ve never prosthelytized my faith. If someone asks me, I’ll tell them, but I’d prefer my actions define me, not a bunch of Bible verses and platitudes. That’s not the point. My faith is personal. I’m not going to be shouting it from the rooftops or getting on the evening news.
gex
@Felinious Wench: Well it might be helpful to know that 30 of 30 states that put SSM to a direct vote passed it. Many of them require a supermajority, not just a majority. So it’s great that you are for social justice. But a majority aren’t, and we have the Constitutional Amendments to prove it.
I have not said one thing condemning religion in general in this thread, just the areas that impact my personal life. I’m not the one you should be fighting with.
grandpajohn
@Omnes Omnibus: He also seems to be posting on the wrong assumption that others here also are making that all christians are by default fundamentalist and adhere to all the beliefs that fundamentalist hold
gex
We should just rename this the No True Scotsman thread.
Roger Moore
@grandpajohn:
You need to memorize Deuteronomy 18:20-22:
So when Camping says the Rapture is supposed to happen on 21 May 2011 and it doesn’t happen, you’re supposed to recognize him as a false prophet and put him to death. That’s what it says in the Bible he supposedly holds dear, so it’s only fair he be held to its standard. Of course Jesus also said that he would return within the life of his disciples (Matthew 24:34) and that didn’t happen either, so make of that false prophet bit what you will.
shortstop
@gex: It always comes down to that, doesn’t it? Every fucking time.
Chris
@Roger Moore:
Major shout out. Great Bible quote, I also memorized it a long time ago specifically for moments like this.
grandpajohn
@R-Jud: Well that may work for them, but it is curious that they make such a big deal of the old testament decrees while ignoring the new testament decrees in other words ignoring Gods decrees that were passed on through Jesus instead of old testament prophets. I don’t think God or Jesus intended for us to cherry pick which of his decrees or laws we were to follow.
Felinious Wench
@gex:
Uh, I’m not. That’s the problem with this “you = all Christians.”
I would fight with every last breath of my body in defense of GLBT causes, including SSM. That is near and dear to my heart. I do it AS a Christian. If a majority of Christians don’t agree with me, fuck ’em. I’ll argue with them from a Christian point of view, through Biblical and theological authority as to why their views are not supported. I have backed down frothing Fundamentalists who don’t have 1/16th of the scholarship into our faith that I do.
You can either see people like me as an ally, or alienate us. We’re going to continue to fight for the same causes. But we tend to be a pretty powerful counterbalance to the Fundamentalist agenda, and you might want to use us.
catclub
@Felinious Wench: and understands that we can combine our resources and our passion to make a real difference in our communities.
Check out the book “Help” by Garret Keizer (ex Episcopal priest). I think it is really good.
Brachiator
@grandpajohn:
I don’t know. To me, it’s kinda like using the Tooth Fairy to debunk the Easter bunny. People are straining to interpret metaphorical language to say something about the real world. It just doesn’t work.
And I’ve heard some religious historians claim that there is not even a mention of rapture in the Bible. And then, there is this from the “why evolution is true” web site:
None of this stuff is particularly consistent or meaningful and always gets re-interpreted to push back the supposed end times.
jrg
@Mandramas:
None of which you commonly hear atheists complain about.
Look. I’m not saying that a Jesuit can’t think scientifically. I’m not saying that a scientist can’t be religious. All I’m saying is that believing something without evidence (faith) and believing something with evidence (empiricism) are mutually exclusive. You can do either at any given time, but you cannot do both at once.
WRT atheists feeling superior, yes. I do think that choosing not to believe things for which there is no evidence is better. There is no limit to the bullshit you can believe on “faith”… From 72 virgins, to evil spirits causing disease. So I personally view people that fall for this kind of thinking over and over again with a degree of contempt.
At any rate, you people can pray to the moon for all I care… Just don’t mess with my right to believe what I want.
Felinious Wench
@shortstop:
Every damn time. Every thread involving religion. It’s annoying. I’ve never seen a well-reasoned, logical, rational discussion here yet on this topic.
TenguPhule
I see you got Bible Spice’s new cocktail mix.
Felinious Wench
@jrg:
Yep. Agree.
As do I, actually.
I try not to have contempt for people. Which is probably the difference between us.
jrg
@Felinious Wench:
Oh, the irony :)
eemom
Ya gotta be shittin me. ANOTHER religion vs. atheist thread?
We can’t even agree that this Rapture guy is a pathetic old freakazoid without finding something to argue about?
Ryan S
Except when your trying to shame people for their beliefs.
ETA- Or should I say lack thereof.
jrg
@Ryan S: Oh, come on. Felinious Wench is not some whacko fundie, as evidenced by this thread. Cut [her|him] some slack.
Ryan S
@eemom: Its the argument that never dies. One might say it is constant and eternal.
Omnes Omnibus
@eemom: And geg6 didn’t see how using this thread to take a shot at religion in general was going to start a fight.
gex
@Felinious Wench: Ally please! I am not looking to fight. I would really love living in a world where more Christians practiced as you do.
But… While not all Christians are anti-gay, nearly all the people who are anti-gay are Christian in this country. That is a fact in my world. I’ve not yet found an anti-SSM argument that doesn’t involve the Bible. And considering Omnes’ suggestion, that is problematic for me. Why not start arguing scripture when talking marriage policy or equal protection or due process? Well, first, I’m not well equipped to do so, as I am not a Christian. Second, I have no reason to believe their version is wrong and your version is right. I definitely prefer your version. But if find the search for Scotsmen to be a waste of time.
Ryan S
@jrg: Nope she/he is just an apologist for them.
Oh thats right we’re atheists we’re not allowed feelings or anything. We just need to shut up and never say anything bad, because then that undoes everything a nice religious person said and did in the past.
Omnes Omnibus
@gex: Practicing Christians in the US definitely have a PR problem in that their most prominent adherents tend to monstrous assholes.
eemom
@Omnes Omnibus:
some people just live to start fights.
Peaceful folk such as you and I may find this difficult to comprehend.
grandpajohn
@Roger Moore: Two things; first again your first quote is from the old testament which is the point that I have tried to make, the fundamentalist live in the old testament laws and decrees while ignoring the new testament decrees from Jesus, and the fact that the coming of Jesus established a new covenant with Gods people so that the laws from the original covenant in the old testament were changed.And remember the people being referred to under these laws were the chosen people, the jews. Now if you want to still apply the old testament laws and kill all the TV preachers, their blood will be on your hands not mine as I oppose killing in general.
Secondly , according to my annotated bible , the word generation in Matt 24:34 can also be translated to mean race like chosen race, and this translation puts quite a different meaning to the verse and affects your interpretation significantly does’t it
Omnes Omnibus
@eemom: I shall laugh now. Ha!
grandpajohn
@Chris: If you are referring to Matt 24:36, when you memorized it , you should have also studied all the possible translations also.
catclub
@Brachiator: I hope you are aware that in the 1800’s (not really sure when) the Catholic church decided that the Virgin Mary was ‘assumed’ into heaven (The Assumption), so there is an out for the prediction based on how many have tasted death.
eemom
@Omnes Omnibus:
I AM peaceful goddammit! I am I AM!!
They call me Mahatma I tell you! People come from far and wide to learn my ways of serenity!
Fuckin KUMBAYA!
gex
@Omnes Omnibus: Unfortunately true. Anyhoo…
I was discussing earlier how I was having trouble with dealing with Christians who won’t let me marry because of God mumble mumble. (The reasons vary). And suddenly FW acts as though I was impugning all Christians everywhere. Don’t know how that happened.
ETA: But it seems that I’m not the one lumping all Christians together in that case.
shortstop
@Omnes Omnibus: I blame the truncated American sense of humor and excessive Yankee earnestness. Many western Europeans, for one example, manage to be culturally (and often even sincerely) Christian while keeping their insouciance about it all. Merkins take ourselves so goddamned seriously.
I don’t feel strongly about this, however. I’m just typing stream of consciousness now to avoid doing something else I don’t feel like doing.
eemom
….and I can PROVE it! I just asked Cole for a thread about Netanyahu’s speech to Congress!
Omnes Omnibus
@gex: I read it more as a statement of “Hey, we aren’t all like that.” YMMV. FWIW my mother is involved in a fight with her church (Missouri Synod Lutheran) over SSM. She has considered leaving it but her family has been a part of this parish for about a hundred years and she has decided that she will not be driven out by a few bigoted assholes. People within churches are trying to make a difference. Just so you know.
grandpajohn
@Brachiator:
which is something we agree on . If there is to be end times it will happen in its own times. My general point here is that the people promoting these end of times mantras are supposed to be true believers of the bible, if they are true believers then they should know that, according to the bible they claim to be the literal truth, they cannot predict a date for end of times because the bible declares that no one knows this time but God. So then why do they defy the very truth they claim to know by falling for and supporting Frauds such as this one, Cognitive dissonance can really trash your mind sometimes
gex
@Omnes Omnibus: Yeah, it’s a weird thing. If these were secular organizations people would be freer to leave and rob them of their political power. It’s nice to know that there are people who are working from within. But it’s hard not to notice how they still end up delegating power to those that cause me trouble.
Ah well. Demographics will fix a lot of this. Even young evangelicals are more gay friendly.
And thanks to your Mom and others like her.
Felinious Wench
@Ryan S:
Oh thats right we’re atheists we’re not allowed feelings or anything.
ericblair
@eemom:
Not to mention that the guy looks almost exactly like the Creepy Preacher Dude from Poltergeist. Expected him to defend his prediction by tapping his head and intoning “Because. I’m. SMART.”
And this shit is evil. They do take a lot of pleasure in the idea that everybody else that disagrees with them will be tormented eternally in a lake of fire, and are disappointed when it doesn’t happen fast enough for them. I don’t know how you could differentiate them from any other group of tribal, amoral assholes that have graced this ball of dirt since time immemorial.
Ryan S
@Felinious Wench: Its just the “Your broken and not me” tone that has me annoyed.
asiangrrlMN
@Felinious Wench: Our state (gex and mine) just passed a fucking bill to put our equality to the voters. We don’t have much time to mollycoddle people who are Christians of the good kind. If you want to fight on our side, do it because it’s right–not because you get strokes for it. As gex noted, SSM has passed in every state in which it’s been put to the vote. That means there are more Christians who believe the shit than Christians who don’t. If a little blunt talk about the corrosive effects of how Christianity is used as a cudgel in politics makes you decide not to fight for equal rights, well, so be it.
It’s galling as a non-Christian to listen to Christians talk about all the good Christians there are. I’m pissed off enough about this whole SSM thing in MN to begin with–I don’t need a lecture in how it’s not really Christianity or that most Christians don’t agree. I was raised Christian. I’ve seen the damage it’s done. And, as I stated above, all the heinous laws being passed right now concerning civil rights issues and cultural issues are steeped in religious bias.
I don’t have time, energy, or patience to placate people who want to be reassured that they are good Christians.
Allan
@Felinious Wench: Great! You fix them. Especially the ones who are test-marketing gay genocide in Africa. Let me know when you’ve persuaded them that they’re doing Jesus wrong.
Felinious Wench
OK. I get it. I’m reading these responses, thinking “OK, what did I say to give the impression that caused these responses, because something must be way off in how I’m expressing myself.” But it comes off way flat and wrong when a Christian, who is part of a dominant majority religion in the U.S., tries to reach out and say “Hey, we’re not all assholes, we can be friends.” Because though I’m a minority within my faith, it’s small indeed compared to the marginalization you deal with.
Duly noted, and will be remembered.