First our uteri, and now our milk-filled tatas? Whatever happened to Our Bodies, Our Selves?
Lawmakers in Forest Park, Georgia recently passed a law banning all public nudity, except for live theatrical performances and women who breastfeed infants under the age of two.
Wha!? Really?
I don’t get it, y’all. John Mayer said that our bodies are wonderlands. So why do lawmakers across the country seem so fearful of them? First it was Florida with that “uterus is a bad bad word” business. And now it’s a city in Georgia trying to clamp down on breastfeeding in public.1
What is going on? I thought most dudes love boobs!?
Faced with 200 angry breastfeeding mothers sitting on the City Hall steps, there was only one thing the council manager could do – retreat.
Now lawmakers are set to revise the ordinance, which they said was designed to clamp down on public indecency – but mothers claimed it infringed their right to wean their children when they wanted.
So on Monday around 200 self-styled ‘lactivists’, many breastfeeding their babies, staged a ‘nurse-in’ at City Hall.
Jessica Lister, who organised the protest on Facebook, said she had received dozens of messages of support from across the country.
…
The law, passed two weeks ago by the city council, banned all types of public nudity, but contained an exemption for live theatrical performances and women who breastfeed – but only if their infants are ‘under the age of two’.
Many of the mothers were angry that feeding their babies would be considered ‘indecent’.
Amy Byrd told CBS Atlanta ‘If they’re doing so modestly, what’s the difference between a six-month-old and a two-year-old?’
The women said the ordinance stopped them practising ‘child-led’ breastfeeding, in which the infant determines when they stop having their mother’s milk.
…
City manager John Parker said the city attorney had used the same wording as indecency ordinances used in nearby DeKalb County and the City of Griffin – even though there is no age limit in the state law allowing public breastfeeding.
He told NBC11 council members were now drawing up an amendment to ‘nullify some of these conflicts’, and planned to review the ordinance at their next meeting.
Don’t the coppers have better things to do than confront breastfeeding women and demand to know the age of a toddler? Is this the burgeoning birth certificatification of America? Are we going to require babies to produce their birth certificates so lawmakers can verify whether or not to assess penalties against their mothers?
Although — yep — I guess I sort of see the point. I mean, women aren’t really supposed to be out of the house unattended anyway; far too much cooking and cleaning to do. Why do they even need to be outside at all?
Women can’t be trusted. Women are troublemakers and their rights must be restricted lest they run wild spewing estrogen hither and yon.
By the way, “lactivist” is the best portmanteau in all land.
1 See what I did there?
[via @Archivist on the Twitters]
BO_Bill
‘Hyster’ is the Greek work for ‘Uterus’.
JPL
GA recently passed a bill where the police can ask for papers proving the status of citizenship. Now parents will be required to carry birth certificates to prove a child is under two before breast feeding. It won’t be long before we will all be required to carry papers in the state.
motorik
Is it true that ABL has never proofread one of her posts?
Ever?
General Stuck
I imagine they do loves boobs, but in the proper place during scheduled time at the nearest cheesy motel, when their spousal ones lose the magic.
Public nudity and random erections interfere with gooper business stealing from the poor, It’s hard to concentrate with boobs flopping willy nilly during business hours.
And that don’t even consider the preachers who run all the scams by baby jeevus for proper approval.
You Yankees just don’t get it.
General Stuck
@motorik:
What are you saying grasshopper?
Yutsano
@General Stuck: Oh that’s ABL’s resident stalker. Best not to engage lest madness be your aim.
Mnemosyne
Ah, yes. Conservatives complain that there’s too much government interference in our lives, and then promptly demand that the government police the age at which a woman weans her child.
I realize that “government interference” means “let corporations do anything they want” and doesn’t actually refer to government interference, but do they have to be so stupidly blatant about it?
fuckwit
Clamp down, got it, awesome.
Ouch.
General Stuck
@Yutsano:
I like stalkers. Or at least their livers.
Sly
Of course we have to regulate breast feeding in public. It might lead to dancing.
parsimon
For what it’s worth, Republicans don’t have a lock on anti-breastfeeding sentiments. This kind of thing doesn’t necessarily divide along party lines.
Starfish
They are also coming after the water births. What country should procreating women move to?
JPL
@Yutsano: After a long day I was gonna say wtf.. Stuck can be so subtle sometime.
Since I live in GA, I do have to wonder how long before we all have to carry papers.
TaMara (BHF)
They should just require burkas and be done with it.
beltane
Nice state the wingnuts have there in Georgia. They want to ban contraception and abortion while simultaneously prohibiting women from caring for the resulting offspring. It’s like a Christian purdah brought to you by the He-Man’s Woman Haters Club.
Roger Moore
@parsimon:
I think this is probably right. It used to be something people did in private, and some people who grew up with things that way have a hard time getting over it. That’s not a good reason for this kind of rule, but we do lots of things for bad reasons.
Yutsano
@TaMara (BHF): Why stop there? Go full Saudi and forbid uteri to drive or leave the house without a male relative. If they’re gonna go full Taliban no sense in being pikers about it.
beltane
@TaMara (BHF): The only thing stopping them from implementing a mandatory burka law is that they like to ogle the T & A of all those horrible female creatures.
numfar
@beltane:
Well, to be completely accurate, they only like young, perky, females or the bolt-ons featured by slender young men.
Calouste
“live theatrical performances”?
I assume that is Georgian for “strip clubs”. I mean, I can’t see them doing anything positive for the arts.
Svensker
@Mnemosyne:
This.
scarshapedstar
@parsimon:
I don’t remember any of them starting a national campaign to promote it. What, you thought this just came out of the blue?
If the Scary Black Man Administration promoted apple pie, they would ban that, too.
parsimon
@Roger Moore: Yeah. The fact that this is happening in Georgia has Republican written all over it, and it’s ironic and/or hypocritical as hell that Republicans purport to be fairly libertarian (small government), but unfortunately sexism of this variety isn’t limited to the Republican party.
ABL
@General Stuck: jackshit… as always! :)
Roger Moore
@parsimon:
I don’t know if it’s necessarily sexist in the sense that people are doing it because they dislike women. It’s small c conservative; people grew up with things a specific way and changing is scary. There are a lot of people who are nominally liberal and will vote for liberals but who have a lot of this kind of unthinking small c conservatism in their thought processes. The way you can tell one from the other is that the unthinking conservatives will change their minds when you point out that their position on this specific issue conflicts with their general political ideas.
balconesfault
This really is about “I don’t want to see that” laws … same reason they’d string up black men for kissing white women in public back when they were allowed to do that kind of thing.
Jason
Only because the racktivists haven’t shown up for the support rally yet.
parsimon
@Roger Moore:
I’ll go with that, yes, except that while I actually did hesitate over “sexism” for a minute or two, I do think this is a case of it, rather than just a matter of people being old-fashioned. It reveals a wish to keep women’s roles as, at one time, mothers, and at another time objects of sexual desire, quite distinct [this formulation still doesn’t get it quite right]. This ridiculous law — which is apparently about to be revised anyway, post-haste — tried to draw a line in that distinction in women’s roles, at the time when the child is two years old. Duh.
Cermet
I’m lost – this is an issue of what age to stop publicly breast feeding a child – not breast feeding since any woman can do this for any baby/child up to age two under the law. Whether that is or should be an issue IS the issue but no one in GA is against breast feeding as long as the child is under two.
SiubhanDuinne
“Lactivist” is good. “Uterati” is even better.
Cacti
Breast feeding is a perfectly normal, natural, biological function.
So is flatulating.
parsimon
@Cermet:
Right.
JRon
As a Georgian, I hope this means I don’t have to see any flabby shirtless guys in the 100-degree heat next time I pass thru Forest Park.
And yes, live theatrical performances only means strip clubs. They’re more popular here than anywhere I’ve ever lived (with the glaring exception of my apartment next to Place Blanche.)
As a father of two, and seeing what a pain this natural activity can be, it’s hard for me to understand wanting to breastfeed a child that has teeth. But that shouldn’t be up to the local govt.
parsimon
Anyway, this interests me at a broader level because I think we’re sometimes too willing to align Democratic party sympathies with utterly liberal sentiments, and Republican affiliation with conservative ones, and that’s myopic.
For unknown reasons, I wound up being put on an email newsletter list from one BCNN — Black Christian News Network, I think? — and while they are staunchly Democrat in affiliation, they are quite disturbed, constantly, at Obama and his administration for what they perceive to be his pro-abortion and pro-gay-rights stances. They’re not going to vote Republican, but they want to hold Obama’s feet to the fire about his cultural liberalism on these matters, as well on as his failure to aid the black community economically.
Hawes
I can see the people making this rule.
“Two years old seems right, right?”
“Yeah, I mean kids can talk at two.”
“By that time it’s tough to tell if it’s nutrition or a burgeoning Oedipus complex.”
Robert Waldmann
“Uterati” isn’t half bad either.
I had an odd experience in the Italian University where a I work. A woman not dressed in normal office or university attire asked directions. She was over dressed (too fancy) that is underdressed (more cleavage than normal — no flagrant nipples). A young colleague had a reaction as in he was tempted to tell her to find the room for herself.
I am surprised. I thought we men liked boobs and should be extra courteous to provide incentives to show more. And this is Italy. Bare breasts are not considered indecent (on the beach).
All very odd.
Monala
As someone who breastfed her daughter until she was 3.5 years, I never breastfed her in public after the age of 1. This was for two reasons:
1) At least for my kid, there was no such thing as modest breastfeeding after age 1. This is because she was too active and playful. A typical nursing session might start with her sucking for a while, then looking up and around to see what’s going on, then lifting my breast up and down to explore it, then…
2) It was no longer necessary anyway. After age one, there were plenty of other things she could drink or eat besides my milk if we were in public and she was thirsty or hungry.
TaMara (BHF)
@Calouste: I didn’t even think about that. As a theatre geek I was thinking they were preserving their right to ogle young men in Equus.
stuckinred
My wife is a lactation consultant and a public health educator in the Athens area and this is the tip of the iceberg in terms of the stupidity of people concerning breast feeding and child nutrition.
eemom
I’m sorry, y’all, but this is just stupid.
I’m a retired breastfeeding mother myself, and would brook no shit from any actual anti-breastfeeding law…..but do you seriously not realize how rare it is for a child to still be nursing past age 2? Most babies (and moms) are done with it LONG before then.
Karen
I didn’t know babies breastfed after the age of two but yeah, the government shouldn’t make that decision.
Breastfeeding is best for the baby isn’t it? The collostrum in the breast milk helps a baby’s immunity.
Speaking of baby issues, TPM, the comments are getting ugly over this:
San Francisco Circumcision Ban
I think that’s a Democrat’s legislation though I can be wrong.
stuckinred
@eemom: So, which part THIS is stupid, the post or the law?
scarshapedstar
@Cermet:
Given that the sponsor of the bill only speaks about “controlling nudity” the obvious implication is that a mother breastfeeding a child under two is clothed and a mother breastfeeding a child aged two years and a day is nude. Makes perfect sense after a few hits of crystal meth.
How about we exempt “women breastfeeding children”?
General Stuck
@eemom:
You seen the price of store bought cow milk lately? And you just can’t beat mothers milk for nutrients and shit.
scarshapedstar
@Karen:
I think it’s a bit of a stretch to compare circumcision and breastfeeding like that. One is natural, the other is religious (ever see a circumcised orangutan?); all babies can be breastfed but genital mutilation is usually only performed on American males; etc etc.
eemom
@stuckinred:
the law is arguably somewhat stupid. But compared to the vast number of vastly stupider and vastly more malignant laws being passed every day against women in this clusterfuck of a country — many of which ABL has rightly called out — making a big deal out of one like this is, yes, stupid.
stuckinred
@eemom: Got something you’d rather talk about?
parsimon
@eemom: Irrelevant.
eemom
@scarshapedstar:
that’s interesting — we’ve come full circle. Because the actual, brutal genital mutilation practiced against girls in certain middle eastern and African countries used to be referred to by the vile euphemism of “female circumcision.”
And now, apparently, the benign, anesthetized removal of the foreskin of newborn boys — the health benefits of which are, at worst, controverted — is being drama queened into “genital mutilation.”
stuckinred
As Roseanne Roseanna Danna would say. . .
scarshapedstar
@eemom:
You could write an entire book on why cutting off most sensitive part of the vulva is considered horrifying and cutting off the most sensitive part of the penis is considered routine and manly, but in either case, it’s irreversible and nobody asks the child.
Okay, fine, I’ll stop being a drama queen. The foreskin is the funniest-looking part of a slapstick (har!) organ. Chop that shit off, especially if the Sky Fairy tells you to! And laugh TWICE as hard at the part in the Vagina Monologues when they brag about how the clitoris has twice as many nerve endings as the penis!
eemom
@General Stuck:
umm….General? I loves ya and all, but this really isn’t a “cost of milk,” or a benefits of breast milk, issue, in the real world of mothers and babies. Can you trust me on this?
@parsimon:
Yes, as a theoretical matter you’re right, it is irrelevant. But as a matter of “I live in this fucked up world, and I have no tolerance for pseudo-outrage over stupid shit,” it’s not.
parsimon
You guys should have an analogy ban here.
eemom
@stuckinred:
yeah. See Cole’s Israel thread below. : )
General Stuck
I love a blog that migrates from breast feeding to circumcision. A PHD could do a hell of a dissertation with the Freudian goings in this place. Me, Luckily I was born abnormal, so it just seems like another day in the Cleaver household.
Cacti
@eemom:
You mean non-consensual permanent removal of erogenous tissue from the male member?
General Stuck
@eemom:
Sure eemom, and thanks for fact checking my jokes, gawd knows sumbody needs to.
clay
Wait. People are still breastfeeding their kids after two? This is a thing now? And, furthermore, it’s a thing that HAS to be done in public??
And we’re all comfortable with comparing the restriction thereof to the fundamental assult on women’s reproductive health and rights?
I’m sorry; I just can’t get upset over this.
(Don’t you people watch Game of Thrones?!)
eemom
@Cacti:
ok, fair nuff. I spoke from experience about breastfeeding — obviously, I am not qualified to do so about circumcision — even, with apologies to scarshapedscar — whether it counts as “mutilation” or not.
Gentlemen? Discuss.
HobbesAI
So would it be okay to breastfeed a child over two as long as you recited a few lines of Shakespeare?
“Out, out, brief candle! Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more: it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”
ABL
Maybe someone could provide me a list of acceptable topics on which I can post over here.
I noticed a person trying to raise awareness about an issue that mattered to her. I dashed off a quick post.
THE HORROR! THE HORROR!
@Mnemosyne: yep.
General Stuck
What better way to annoy the wingnuts, and remind them they are just another hungry mammal.
General Stuck
@ABL:
Yer doin fine ABL, don’t let the chunkers from the peanut gallery bother you. Social awareness and change often comes one breast and dancing pole at a time. It’s the little injustices people ignore, that clear the way for bigger ones.
I’m a chauvinist pig, like the rest of my gender. But that doesn’t mean I have to be a moron also too.
PeakVT
This tasty little tidbit just came through the tubes: Cooling facility stops at Fukushima No. 5 nuclear reactor.
Cacti
@ABL:
Puppies and food.
eemom
Just to set the record straight: in my personal opinion, there is nothing indecent about boobs, and they should be legally displayable at any time and place that a man can legally have his shirt off.
And breast feeding is beautiful and natural, anytime, anywhere…..at any age. (?)
ABL
@clay: i don’t have kids. i don’t plan to have kids. i have no idea what an “acceptable” age to stop breastfeeding a kid is.
i do recall reading an article on salon discussing what is or is not the appropriate age.
i also recall legislatures imposing limits on breastfeeding age.
to the extent i dashed off a quick post and didn’t expand upon it, i’ll say that criticism is entirely fair. in retrospect, i should have made the point mnemosyne made. it’s a fair criticism.
but i get irritated when people feel compelled to chime in and share what they think i should be writing about, or what they think is appropriate for the front page. opinions are like assholes. we all have them. here, the only opinion that matters with respect to content is cole’s, and i’m assured he doesn’t give a fuck.
peace.
eemom
@ABL:
you can post about whatever you want, obvs, ABL.
Likewise, if I think that person is making a tempest in a teapot while tornadoes are tearing the house down, I can comment to that effect too, I assume.
parsimon
@clay:
A distinction is being made between actually legislating such things, and letting them work themselves out as a matter of community norms.
General Stuck
@eemom:
Damn straight, I got titties too, though they are small and completely useless, it’s just the principle of the thang.
And besides. nekkid boobies have medicinal value.
Jim C.
I’m not seeing the issue on this one.
Reasonable limitations of public nudity are not exactly new.
Generally speaking, I kind of like ABL’s schtick, but the whole “slightly deranged ranting” thing only works if the issue being ranted about doesn’t strike the reader as somewhat reasonable.
For me, it isn’t a horrible inconvenience to take your little Zergling into a private bathroom or whatever even under the age of two if you want to breastfeed. Saying that it is perfectly okay for two year olds and less certainly doesn’t strike me as being particularly odious and/or unfair.
Quite the contrary, it strikes me as a pretty fair compromise between a woman’s need to be able to provide sustenance to her infant and my desire not to have the somewhat uncomfortable site of sagging, unpleasant tits being suckled on a couple of feet away from me.
Roger Moore
@Cacti:
I think you’re allowed to talk about how great the Kenyan in Chief is, also, too. Criticizing the Republicans as a bunch of Neanderthals is acceptable, so this post would have been fine if it could have been pinned on the GOP specifically.
Allan
@Jim C.:
How many of your meals do you enjoy in the bathroom?
Elliecat
Uh,@clay:
Well, gee, it’s been a thing through pretty much all of human history. In this country, breastfeeding fell off for a lot of years but in most of the world, babies are breastfed, and in many places they are breastfed until age 4 or 5. So yeah, I guess “this is a thing now”?
For some reason, a lot of people in the US tend to think it’s freaky and unnatural. Breasts are supposed to be for attracting and amusing men. Why would you want to use them to nourish and nurture your child? That’s just sick!
parsimon
@Jim C.:
This just made me laugh. It sounds so much like unsagging, pleasant tits being suckled would be fine.
Jim C.
@Allan:
Not being under the age of two years old, I can actually tell the difference between eating in the bathroom and eating at the table of a five star restaurant.
I’m willing to bet infants can’t.
Violet
@Jim C.:
Spoof? Otherwise, please feel free to eat your meals in public restrooms (when the mythical private bathroom doesn’t somehow materialize when you’re away from home) while sitting on the floor (they don’t usually have chairs). Public restrooms are very hygienic, especially the floors.
Ash Can
@Jim C.: That’s fair as long as men who are noticeably overweight are prohibited by law from going shirtless in public.
Violet
@Jim C.:
You have a site for that? Weird.
Chris
@parsimon:
Yeah – it’s awkward for *some* people to have to be reminded that breasts exist for reasons beyond their own titillation.
I can just hear the argument, “Come on, that kid’s gotten enough, it’s time for them to be for me!”
Yutsano
@Jim C.: I had friends come to visit me from out of town, and they brought their new daughter along with them. During the meal Cynda got fussy and hungry and Mom and Dad realized they forgot to pack a bottle. A small discussion ensued where the idea of going to the bathroom was suggested then I reminded them Seattle has a boob law. She discreetly covered up after flopping a boob out, the kid chowed down, and the conversation continued happily. Why should she excuse herself for a vital natural bodily function just because you might get uncomfortable?
(dammit, spelled the kid’s name wrong.)
clay
@ABL: I didn’t say (nor mean to imply) that you shouldn’t write about whatever strikes your fancy. Rereading my comment, I’m having a hard time seeing how it could be constructed as so, but what do I know?
Look, I enjoy your posts; your writing is direct, crisp, thoughtful, and funny all at once. Hell, I even enjoyed this post. Really, I wasn’t commenting on your post as much as the story itself. I wasn’t particularly thinking about you at all when I made my comment, but rather the 50 or so previous comments, most of which seemed to equate not breastfeeding a two-year-old in public with outlawing all breast feeding everywhere at everytime.
Seriously, where did I say, “Why is ABL writing about this? What a waste of space!”? You had an opinion about this story. You shared it. I had a different opinion. I shared that. That’s all there is to it. I know you’ve been unreasonably slammed by some commenters here, but I wasn’t trying to slam you, and I apologize if it came off that way.
madmommy
@Jim C.:
Just out of curiosity, would you want to go eat lunch inside a public restroom? Most nursing moms I know are able to do it in such a way as to show less boobage than the average female wearing summer clothing in Georgia. Unless you are trying to scope out some anonymous mom’s mammary glands, chances are there are moms breast feeding around you and you don’t even notice.
Jim C.
@parsimon:
It’s been a long week and I’m a bit tired. I probably should have worded that post a little better.
The basic point I’m getting at is that there are degrees to things, and degrees matter. Every single thing can’t be the second coming of the Apocalypse or World War III or we become the Tea Party.
I’m about as liberal as they come. I’m disgusted by the current Republican assault on Choice in this country and their anti-women campaign, but I honestly don’t see any terrible, horrible infringement upon the rights of women to place some minor limitations on public breastfeeding for the comfort of those around them.
Jim C.
@Violet:
There’s this great invention called the “babysitter” that some genius came up a while back. I’d link to the person who thought up the concept but I don’t think they were ever given full credit.
scarshapedstar
@Yutsano:
Because only an impartial observer, like someone who will never breastfeed and finds it repulsive, should be able to set the rules for how women may breastfeed. They certainly can’t make this decision for themselves; I mean, can you think of anything else that has udders, other than cows?
Violet
@Jim C.:
Where should the food source (the breastfeeding mother) sit while providing the infant the food? The toilet seat? So she hogs a stall for the time it takes to feed her infant? Where does she put the stroller, her purse, anything else? Have you tried juggling a baby and various other items while straddling a toilet seat? What if an item of the baby’s drops to the floor in the toilet stall? No worries, because it’s a clean place to eat, right?
Do men’s bathrooms have barcaloungers or something? Because there just isn’t much of a place to sit, outside of a toilet, in most women’s public restrooms.
Jim
@Jim C.:
Whatever. I bused tables for a year, and one night this beautiful German lady was breastfeeding, and it was the goddamn highlight of my career. I must have refilled their water 50 times, with no discomfort.
Go back to San Francisco, buddy.
Amir_Khalid
You can tell when summer’s coming in America. That’s whe the issue of public breastfeeding pops out — Whoops, I meant up. Every year, without fail.
I don’t understand restricting public breastfeeding based on the child being over two. I mean, it’s the mother’s breast that gets exposed in front of all and sundry, right? Never seen a kid as old as two still being breastfed, but I don’t see why that should affect the issue. It’s not the kid who’s exposing anything.
Even here, I’ve seen conservative Muslim women, wearing headscarves and all, breastfeed in public places without a second thought. Their child is hungry, and that’s all there is to it. I’ve never heard of anyone here so small-minded that they would object to it as indecent — or get, um, titillated.
About the anti-circumcision thing in San Francisco — wouldn’t it run afoul of US Constitutional guarantees of religious freedom for Jews and Muslims? And wouldn’t that make it liable to be struck down, or at least unenforceable? Surely that would make it a non-starter.
scarshapedstar
@Violet:
Really? I mean, I hope the police don’t come after me for revealing this information, but I’ve seen several women’s restrooms with a couch or something. I have never seen a single piece of furniture in the men’s room in my entire life, not that I’ve ever wanted one, either.
Jim C.
@Yutsano:
Using that logic, why have bathrooms at all? Why can’t I just drop my pants and take part in a natural bodily function in front of you just because it might make you a little uncomfortable?
The answer being that society has long decided that, for example, the act of my whipping out my Johnson and taking a leak is something that other people shouldn’t have to watch.
And they legislated against my being able to do this perfectly natural bodily function, rightly or wrongly because it made people uncomfortable.
eemom
oh. shit.
You know, you REALLY can’t win on this blog.
I try to make a reasonable argument that this isn’t a big deal — and along comes some totally clueless, head up the ass idiot — man — to argue that infants should be nursed in public toilets.
Fuck it. Ima go bang my head on the wall. At least that feels good when it stops.
Violet
@Jim C.:
Are you suggesting that unless private rooms for breastfeeding are assured to be available, women should not take their breastfeeding children out in public, and should instead hire a babysitter? What if the babysitter cancels? Or the women is poor and can’t afford one? Or the baby needs to go from one place to another, but the trip isn’t short?
PeakVT
Maybe Forest Park could provide free towels to all the mothers who are nursing their 2+ year old so they can cover themselves. Or to the idiots who are offended by such things so they can cover their heads. Whichever. Or whatever, really.
ETA: @Violet: Don’t forget rule 34.
Jim C.
@Jim:
Such an enlightened and logical argument presented I don’t know how best to respond.
You got engrossed watching a hot German woman breastfeed, so you’ve decided that it’s the highlight of your life and anyone who disagrees with this subject should go back to San Francisco. (Presumably because they’re gay.)
Did I get the gist of your argument right?
Roger Moore
@Jim C.:
Yes, it’s not a horrible inconvenience for you. For the mother who’s actually stuck with a hungry, screaming baby, possibly a long way away from the nearest public restroom or other approved breastfeeding location it is a horrible inconvenience.
Besides, using the restroom for breastfeeding? Ick. There are good health reasons for separating the restroom from other activities, especially those related to food. That goes double for people with weak immune systems, a group that includes infants.
Sensitivity fail.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
Here’s the deal.
The only reason this is an issue — and yes, some children breastfeed after the age of two (my eldest stopped just 4 days short of his second birthday, though by that time it was only first thing in the morning and last thing at night)– the only reason is because our society so thoroughly fetishes women’s breasts that we simply cannot imagine them in anything but a sexual connotation, and because our society is so thoroughly invested in regulating women’s sexuality, we feel a desperate need to tell women that they cannot do that wildly inappropriate sexual thing with their children in front of our very eyes.
Except that this is a reflection on us, on our stupid neuroses and wound-all-up-around-itself approach to women and their bodies.
It has zero, zero, to do with the needs of children and/or the actual, factory-issue functions of female bodies.
scarshapedstar
@Amir_Khalid:
Not the first to say this, but if the imaginary man from 3,000 years ago said to cut off the child’s hand instead, you’d feel different about it, and I hope the law would, too.
madmommy
@Jim C.:
Of course! Leave the baby home with a sitter while taking the older child to the park on a beautiful spring afternoon. Never mind the hassle of finding a sitter, arranging for said sitter to come over at a set time, working around various nap schedules of multiple children, and the not so small matter of paying said sitter. Or, you could just take the kids to the park, and when the baby gets hungry, you feed it. Not in some skeevy public restroom, but right there in front of God and everybody. What a novel concept.
Cacti
@Jim C.:
Well, defecating can have negative public health consequences if left unattended.
OTOH, why the social taboo against flatulence? It harms no one. So if I’m having some intestinal difficulty, why shouldn’t I be able to just crack a cheek and let one rip?
Violet
@Jim C.:
But this law makes no sense. It would be okay if a woman breastfeeding a child of 1 year and 364 days in age could take off her shirt completely and breastfeed her kid in public. But the kid ages one day and suddenly breastfeeding discreetly is against the law? Huh?
If it’s about people’s discomfort, legislate that women have to breastfeed discreetly, no matter the age of the infant.
Jim
@Jim C.:
Yeah, pretty much. How else am I to respond to someone who’s uncomfortable in the presence of breasts?
Allan
@Jim C.: This comment perplexes me. Was the penis designed to provide sustenance to infants? Do you urinate into the mouths of children?
Cacti
@Violet:
Not really the strongest of arguments. There are all sorts of laws that use an arbitrary age.
Why can’t someone who’s 15 years/364 days drive a car, or why can’t someone who’s 20 years/364 days order a drink with dinner?
Yutsano
@Cacti:
FWIW flatulence is perfectly acceptable in China. So when our neo-Communist overlords finally buy us out you’ll be much more comfortable.
@Jim C.: Analogy fail. And I sort of got beaten to it by Cacti, but there are public health considerations as to why you just can’t pee or poop any place you please. There are no such issues with a breastfeeding woman. Care to try again?
Jim C.
@Violet:
Why not? Do you change your baby’s diapers at the table?
I’m well aware that I’m in the minority on this subject. I’m assuredly not trying to offend anyone, though I suspect that I am. I’m trying to say this isn’t the horrific outrage it’s being presented as being.
The logic behind this is the same behind the logic behind other laws that exist regulating certain public actions. Society has the right to determine which things are public activities and which things are private activities. This is not a new thought.
We can certainly debate where that line should be drawn, but it is the tone of this entire discussion that I find extremely questionable. Either you’re for complete, unlimited breastfeeding wherever and whenever or you’re the enemy.
So what IS the proper age then if it isn’t two years old? What about three year olds? Six year olds? No problem here holding that debate.
This subject is being presented in a hyperbolic and panic driven way akin to the way the “forcible rape” subject was presented. They are NOT the same level of outrage and they shouldn’t be treated as such.
I’m all for getting hugely upset and angry about genuine and terrible infringements upon women’s rights and attacks upon their gender. I’m not in favor of each and every thing being hyped to the extreme as the worst thing imaginable.
That’s what the right does. I’d rather not be them.
eemom
this thread makes me want to go back in time 12 years, whip one out in public and start squirting male passers-by like “Jim C” in the face.
and that would TOTALLY be the same as pissing in someone’s face. Right, asshole?
Jim C.
@Violet:
How is setting arbitrarily age limits a new concept though?
We say you have to be 17 to get into R rated movies, or 18 to serve in the army or 21 to vote and drink beer. The concept of the arbitrary age limit isn’t new.
Setting these age limits is supposed to be the right average. Some 16 year olds are mature enough to drink alcohol and some 60 year olds aren’t intelligent enough to vote.
Certainly we can discuss what the right arbitrary age limit is, but let’s not act like this is completely unheard of.
hamletta
@Allan: Thank you, sir. Jim C.’s was a douchebag comment.
I don’t have children, but that just sounds gross.
If you’re going to allow women to breastfeed in public–and you should–you don’t get to put limits on how old the child is. It’s none of your business.
eemom is right that most children are probably weaned by age 2, but that doesn’t make it good law.
Violet
@Cacti:
Those laws affect the person doing the action. The underage driver or drinker will be the one paying the price. The breastfeeding child isn’t going to be fined, the mother is.
The laws of which you speak are in place because of age = responsibility (whether or not that is true). A two year old child isn’t responsible for their own food.
Roger Moore
@Cacti:
My nose disagrees.
ranger3
I once saw a hippy nursing her 5 year old kid. That’s completely fucked up. She was pretty clearly also fucked up, and probably doing it for attention. I’ve seen way more fucked up parents do way more fucked up things to their kids, to be sure. But having a limit on breast feeding isn’t a totally crazy idea. 2 years old is too strict, I’d probably have gone with 4. But as far as crazy hippy mom nursing her 5 year old? Look… if I can’t fuck high school girls, you can’t walk around with a 5 year old hanging off your tit. That shit is nasty.
Jim C.
@Cacti:
Yes, I am aware of the sanitation argument against public urination.
Doesn’t explain why a friend of mine ducked into an uninhabited alleyway to relieve himself once while in college and happened to be spotted by a police officer.
That friend ended up with a misdemeanor that he had to put on his law school entrance exams even though I doubt that there were sanitary concerns with his peeing beside a dumpster.
He was ticketed because society has decided that there are certain times and places that he could send liquid out of his penis, and in an alleyway by a garbage dumpster (even though there are no sanitation concerns) was not one of them.
Granted, my friend was an idiot.
But the point remains, setting limitations on where you can do certain bodily functions is NOT A NEW CONCEPT.
madmommy
@Jim C.:
There is a huge difference between changing a diaper at the dinner table or you whipping out your johnson in a public park to pee on the shrubbery and a mother providing nourishment and sustenance to her child. This is just another in along line of attacks on women. Chipping away, little by little. Limiting contraception choices, restricting access to legal medical procedures, telling women when and where they can feed their children. Where will it stop?
Elliecat
There are a lot of people who think children should always be left home. If you can’t afford a babysitter, then you stay home. Too bad, no one told you to have children!
This is not a very child-friendly society we live in.
ETA: And as someone wrote up near the top, it’s not a left or right thing. I see plenty of this on the left as well as the right.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
@ranger3: Wow. You have some issues, don’t you.
Lysana
@Cacti: There really is no comparison between flatulence and breast-feeding. You can’t smell the breast milk from 20 yards.
Jim C.
@madmommy:
Things that I’m against:
1. Any limits on contraception choices
2. Any restrictions on legal medical procedures
3. Any redefining of the legal definitions of rape to try and restrict it to “forcible” rape
Things that I’m a bit more okay with:
1. Setting certain limits around children. For example, mandating that crying children be taken out of the middle of a movie theater because they’re a disturbance to those around them.
Not every issue is the exact same. I get the impression that some people in this thread understand this and others do not.
Amir_Khalid
@scarshapedstar:
No idea where you’re going with this statement. Care to elaborate?
Violet
@Jim C.:
I do not know what this question is in regard to, but if it’s about mothers not going out in public unless they can be guaranteed a place to breastfeed that is out of view of people, then please see this.
No.
@Jim C.:
The age is irrelevant. Most children are weaned by age two, so setting an arbitrary age that affects only a small amount of children is silly. If a two year old still occasionally breastfeeds, what’s the big deal? Why not let them continue until they’re weaned? And if the very occasional three, four or six year old is still breastfeeding, sure, it might raise a few eyebrows, but is that a big deal? If the mother is discreet about it, why should it be an issue?
The law is about nudity, which means the issue is people’s discomfort with breasts in public. The solution is breastfeeding mothers being discreet. The age is of the child is irrelevant.
Lysana
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther: You sure that’s not a subscription or three he’s showing off there?
Monala
@scarshapedstar: Those women’s restrooms with lounge areas are exceptions, available in hotels and expensive restaurants. They’re much rarer in your average shopping mall, fast food place or gas stations. So for the most part, public bathrooms are no place to nurse a baby.
I think this law will hurt those who need it most. My guess is that most still-nursing toddlers are like my daughter was–able to eat other foods in public, and too active to breastfeed discreetly. In other words, most toddlers, even if still nursing, don’t need to nurse in public. (@Jim–FYI, babies DO need to.)
But there are going to be those toddlers who are exceptions. For example, a child with autism who can only be comforted by breastfeeding. Or a child like my friend’s daughter who suffered from horrible acid reflux for most of her first few years of life. When it was bad, the only food she could keep down was her mother’s breastmilk. It’s moms and kids in situations like these who would really be hurt by this law.
Lysana
This is where I duck out before I start engaging the anti-circers. Not in the mood for pseudo-science or pure appeals to emotion cloaked in language appropriated from actually oppressed minorities. I swear, if you got rid of the men who latch onto circumcision as their only means of using the language of oppression, most of that movement would dry up and die.
And yes, I am not above smacking and running. Your kind piss me off THAT much.
Elliecat
@Violet:
And since Jim C. made a point about his discomfort with perhaps seeing “sagging, unpleasant tits” you’d think he’d get that.
Violet
@scarshapedstar:
I didn’t say that no women’s restrooms have chairs or sofas or benches or whatever. I said that most do not. Monala is right, it’s the upscale places that have them. Places the average person goes, like McDonald’s, Target, etc., usually don’t.
Monala
@Violet: Discreet breastfeeding isn’t always possible. Yet there still might be reasons to breastfeed a toddler in public — see my comment #120.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
@Lysana: HA!
I will admit it took me a second, but then my countenance was filled with joy.
Yes. At least three subscriptions.
madmommy
@Jim C.:
No, not every issue is the same. But the underlying cause is. As Emily Hauser stated above, the societal hang-ups regarding women’s bodies are at the root of the problem. You can see more boob at any swimming pool in America than you can see when most moms are nursing. Why is one scenario OK and one is scandalous and must be legislated against?
hamletta
@Violet:
Exactly. Breastfeeding is either acceptable or non-acceptable.
Age limits are ridiculous. Children will be weaned when it’s time for them to be weaned. The law just doesn’t need to go there.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
I’m also dying to say the following, so I’mma just say it:
Breasts. Not just for selling beer anymore.
Now I’ve said it.
Jim C.
@Violet:
“The law is about nudity, which means the issue is people’s discomfort with breasts in public. The solution is breastfeeding mothers being discreet. The age is of the child is irrelevant.”
Now, see, THIS is a constructive debate. Thanks to you for approaching this on an intellectual level. I appreciate it.
Really, the issue IS around the rights of the mother vs. the rights of the people around the mother.
For me personally, I’d be perfectly comfortable with the legislation being written in the way that you suggest.
Contrary to what some have suggested, I’d also be perfectly comfortable with no legislation on this subject PERIOD. I’m not blind to the comments by some of the posters in this thread that this is certainly something that might cause an inconvenience to mothers.
I’m just not seriously upset by the Georgia law because I can see the other side on this one and, having been around certain mothers who don’t bother to so much as pay attention to their screaming infants, can also see why some might want to place some sort of restrictions in other areas.
Violet
@Monala:
Yeah, I get that. My point was that the law was about people freaking out about breasts, not how old a breastfeeding child should be. And you are right that it’s going to hurt the mothers and children the most who are the most vulnerable, like the autistic child of your friend.
The whole thing is just stupid, imho. Just look away if it bothers you. It’s not like the breastfeeding women are standing in front of your face and you can’t close your eyes.
SqueakyRat
Laws against public nudity are hardly unusual. And if you’re still breastfeeding your two-year old, well, you’re doin’ it wrong.
Violet
@Jim C.:
You are welcome, but you didn’t exactly open your debate on an intellectual level with your sagging, unpleasant tits comment. It wasn’t clear to me that you wanted a debate on an intellectual level.
I also think there should be no legislation on this subject. The number of women who breastfeed in public at any given time is small. The number of those who breastfeed in a way that might cause others a small amount of discomfort is even smaller still. To me, it’s a way to control women and women’s bodies, while negatively impacting children. The government should stay out of it.
Elliecat
@Monala:
My oldest had reflux as a baby and I hung out with a mother whose toddler had a g-tube—a tube going directly into her stomach for feeding. We went to a restaurant together once. While she was breastfeeding her younger baby, the manager kept coming by and checking things out, looking like he might be going to complain if he could catch her in some non-discrete breastfeeding.
However, he didn’t bother us while she was pumping a syringe full of feeding liquid into her toddler’s g-tube, and I couldn’t get anyone’s attention to bring me a cleaning cloth when my refluxing toddler stood up in the booth and puked spectacularly all over the table.
Funny how only the breastfeeding got us noticed.
Jim C.
@madmommy:
“Why is one scenario OK and one is scandalous and must be legislated against?”
Why can men go shirtless at the pool but then get the “No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service” treatment when they head to the bar to get a drink?
The answer is, perhaps somewhat illogically and somewhat nonsensical because people set arbitrary distinctions about what is appropriate in which contexts.
There’s a hundred different restrictions that society places on what you wear or what you do in which different places.
Do I agree that Georgia should be going to the extent of LEGISLATING something like this?
No, not really.
But I also am not seeing the horrific, terrible infringement on civil liberties that some people here think I should simply because of the underlying fact that we do this all the damn time as a society.
Karen
@Violet:
I have yet to see a McDonald’s or a Target or a Walmart that doesn’t have a changing table.
Jim C.
@Violet:
Yeah, I probably shouldn’t have made the “zergling” or the “saggy, unpleasant tits” comments. This is a time when my “tone of voice” didn’t exactly translate well. I was trying for “wry sarcasm” as a response to ABL’s original post and apparently didn’t make that quite clear.
Monala
@Karen: Changing table =/= place to sit down for a half hour to nurse a baby.
Amir_Khalid
@Jim C.:
Maybe not “horrific, terrible”; but petty and irrational, and therefore still worth arguing against. That society does it all the damn time is no argument in favor of such a thing.
eemom
I am done arguing about breastfeeding with men who don’t know what the fuck they’re talking about.
Let’s get back to circumcision. You know, the issue where they’ve got some, er, skin in the game.
Whaddaya say, fellas? Were y’all “mutilated’?
Looking at you, “Jim C”.
Violet
@Karen:
Is the mother supposed to sit on the changing table as she breastfeeds? I think the pull-down kind might fall off the wall, not to mention they’re usually too high to be sat upon. And if the mother somehow did manage to use the changing table to assist in breastfeeding, what is she to do if another mother needs to use the changing table to actually change her baby’s diapers?
It’s unusual for a McDonald’s, Target or Walmart to have a chair or sofa in their restrooms where mothers can sit to breastfeed, as far as I can tell.
Roger Moore
@Lysana:
I’m kind of ambivalent on circumcision, but I think there’s more there than you’re giving credit for. Circumcision is a medically unnecessary surgery that’s done for cultural reasons, often under unnecessarily barbaric conditions. The studies showing its benefits look pretty weak to me. I don’t think it’s so terrible that we should ban it, especially given its religious significance, but I think it’s something worth talking about.
I prefer to bring it up as a sort of devil’s advocate position to people who criticize other cultures’ practices. It’s a great example of something that we do unthinkingly that people from a different culture would think is bizarre and even a human rights violation. We give it a pass because we’re used to it, but it’s hard to believe that we’d adopt it today if somebody were trying to introduce it.
Amir_Khalid
@eemom:
I haven’t had a foreskin since before my eighth birthday. I can’t honestly say I miss it.
Jim C.
@Amir_Khalid:
Argue against? Sure, why not? That’s what you do in a Democracy. You figure out where to draw the line. Compare it to…
“Although—yep—I guess I sort of see the point. I mean, women aren’t really supposed to be out of the house unattended anyway; far too much cooking and cleaning to do. Why do they even need to be outside at all?
Women can’t be trusted. Women are troublemakers and their rights must be restricted lest they run wild spewing estrogen hither and yon.”
Well, no, I’m not seeing this restriction on women as being analogous to quite this level of outrage.
Which brings me back to my very first post in this thread.
“Generally speaking, I kind of like ABL’s schtick, but the whole “slightly deranged ranting” thing only works if the issue being ranted about doesn’t strike the reader as somewhat reasonable.”
I prefer the level of outrage and vitriol in the subject being discussed to be reserved for somewhat bigger issues. I’ve spent the last two years watching the other side erupt like effing Mt. Vesuvius on EVERY SINGLE ISSUE that I’d rather we remain a bit more deliberate about our outrage levels and reserve the BIG GUNS to bigger subjects.
eemom
uncircumcised dicks are icky, imo. I don’t think women should have to look at them, in public OR in private. There oughtta be a law.
Jim C.
@eemom:
Look away. I’ll save my time on responding to folks who are actually trying to make reasonable debates.
But since you asked SO nicely…no, not circumcised, and no strong opinions on the subject either way. Feel free to go visit Sullivan if you want to have a long, in-depth conversation on the issue.
Yutsano
@eemom: I’m half Jewish. It’s the one matter my father insisted on for me and all my brothers.
Cliff in NH
anyone who harasses a breast feeding woman deserves to have a gun pointed at them till they back away and leave her the fuck alone.
Karen
@Violet:
That’s what I get for reading a comment too quickly. My apologies and I think that’s my cue to leave the computer and do something else for a while.
hamletta
@eemom: Aw, jeez, eemom.
Couldn’t you just say “Candyman” three times?
Violet
@Jim C.:
So while you generally agree with the subject matter of ABL’s post, i.e. you don’t really think this issue is one that should be legislated, the tone of ABL’s post is what you don’t like? Too much outrage?
Allan
@Jim C.: I would point out that you’re using the derailing technique “Don’t you have more important things to worry about?” on this thread, but I fear that would cause CS or JSF to materialize.
The thing about the internets is that you don’t get to determine what other people should feel, or how intensely, and efforts to do so will not end well. Nor, by the way, do you know what else the people who are commenting on this thread are doing with the rest of their time to make the world a better place.
But, just as I presume that you make big important contributions to the betterment of the planet all of the time that you’re not talking about your disgust with sagging tits on BJ, others too can multitask.
Roger Moore
@eemom:
You’ll get my foreskin when you cut it from my cold, dead …
Amir_Khalid
@Jim C.:
So, let’s see if I got this straight. What you didn’t really care for was ABL’s tone, so you figured you’d provide a counterargument in an approximation of that tone?
Hmm.
@Roger Moore:
@eemom:
I’ve heard that it’s easier to keep a circumcised pee-pee clean.
I’m not aware that men who have been circumcised as adults report any post-circumcision problems with their todgers. (In Malaysia, non-Muslim boys aren’t cut, and as a rule a grown man would get circumcised only if he converted to Islam.)
There are certainly safety and health issues around the deed itself. Traditional Muslim and Jewish practitioners definitely need to be educated on them. But anyone who hopes to dissuade the Goldsteins or the Abdul Rahmans from circumcising their boy is going to be disappointed, and deservedly so; not circumcising is simply not an option for Jews or Muslims.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@eemom:
you have a point,i should be able to wash my foreskin in public…
and for the record, dowhatchalike, breast feeding wise. it really doesn’t affect me. a buddy of mine told the doc, when his daughter was being born, and his wife needed a c-section, that he would be ok staying there because he field dresses his own deer, and he is used to blood and guts. i am man enough to admit, i am not as much of a man as that man(he stayed, didn’t yak, and was pretty much ok with it) but i will say, boobs should never be a problem.
Jim C.
@Violet:
I’m going to be careful with my reply here because I’m kind of getting the impression that this is a bit more of a hot button issue than I would have expected. I’d ask you to ask me for clarification if something strikes you as oddly phrased here.
Moving onto answer you…
Not to go all Broder-esque on this subject, but yes, kind of.
ABL basically said that this law was the equivalent of trying to push women back into the kitchen where they belonged.
Our system of government in this country is based on the concept of Federalism. So long as a state doesn’t pass a law that directly interferes with Federal law and basic, fundamental rights…there’s some leeway around the margins for states to normalize the laws of their individual states to conform to the standards of their states.
That’s how you can end up with Massachusetts having Gay Marriage being legal and fine and another state saying it is completely unacceptable. Eventually, if the issue is big enough, after each individual state tries things their way the Federal government imposes a uniform standard.
Which means, in effect, that eventually Gay Marriage is going to be legal in this country. It’s only a matter of time.
So, bringing this back to THIS issue, if California for example decides that the right way to address the breastfeeding issue is to pass the law as you suggested (women need to be discrete to avoid disturbing those around them) and Georgia decides to pass things their way, both states can figure out what works for their local culture and community and, unless this is a huge issue, both states can come up with a standard that makes the majority in their particular Democracy happy.
This is several levels different than, say, a state passing punitive measures to make abortions pretty much completely impossible in the state.
And if you treat both issues as the same level of severity then you get the “boy who cried wolf” thing going.
When the “wolf” really appears, for example in the case of a legal attempt to redefine rape to “forcible rape” only, then I’d like it to register when we start screaming at the top of our lungs about it rather than be ignored because we screamed at the top of our lungs about ten different RELATIVELY minor things.
Roger Moore
@Amir_Khalid:
There are (IIRC well done) studies showing that circumcision causes a loss of sensitivity in the now unprotected tissue. And the thing about cleanliness is much more important if you’re unable to bathe regularly. It may have been an issue at one time, but it’s largely irrelevant today.
hamletta
@Jim C.: Oh, we’re all careful now! No mention of saggy tits. Would you like a cookie?
Jim C.
@Allan:
Actually the thing about the Internet is that I absolutely DO get to have an opinion on whatever I like. If my opinion on a certain subject is that people are going all “Tea Party” on a relatively minor subject, then that’s simply my opinion.
Although if you have time between your own moral outrage about a poorly chosen phrasing that occurred approximately 90 posts back maybe you’ll eventually catch up with the actual debate on the actual subject matter being discussed.
Alternatively, feel free to continue attacking me personally instead of the actual arguments I’ve presented.
I won’t bother responding to you again if you do, but go ahead and fire away at someone who basically agrees with 95% of what everyone else at Balloon Juice agrees with if you like.
eemom
omg. I fucked up.
I wasn’t trying to poll y’all boob-challenged juicers as to your own personal, um, status.
I meant, DISCUSS the general issue as to whether routine circumcision of male newborns amounts to “mutilation” or not.
AFAIK, here in the US, most boy babies have been routinely circumcised for many decades, totally apart from religious traditions. It’s only in the last 10-15 years or so that it has become controversial.
IIRC, there’s been an association of uncircumcised men with an increased risk of cervical cancer in their partners.
Also too — just imvho — uh, what I said above.
So. Discuss.
eemom
@Yutsano:
Your father was a wise man.
Cliff in NH
Awww isn’t it so cute that the raging asshole who is upset by:
I think such a asshole should have a gun shoved in their face if they make Any move toward a nursing mother. You would then have the uncomfortable sight that you deserve to see with that attitude.
Dogs and Lions have a advantage on humans here.
Jim C.
@hamletta:
I’m seriously impressed by the ability of some people to hang onto a comment I made literally 90 posts back when I sarcastically replied in the same tone as the original post.
Must have struck a nerve with some people. You know there are surgeries for issues like yours if your saggy tits really bother you.
And by the way, if you want to actually respond to me intellectually I’ll be happy to do so back.
Alternatively, feel free to make some comment about the size of my privates if that’s your preference. I’d be happy to respond back with an insult about your flabby butt or what not.
ABL
@eemom:
no shit, yeah? :)
@clay: the bulk of my comment wasn’t directed to you. it’s hard to delineate when you start of replying to someone and then veer off into ADDville the way i often do. no worries.
ABL
I think we can all agree that nobody cares for my tone but me… and luckily i’m the only one that matters.
memememememememememememememememe
RESOLVED!
::bangs gavel::
+3
ABL
@ABL: well, and cole, but only a little. mostly the stuff i said about the mememememememememe.
+3.1
eemom
@Jim C.:
point proved: you’re a misogynist asshole.
We can all go to bed now, and dream of wondrous worlds wherein breast milk is dispensed in vending machines.
Jim C.
@ABL:
No worries. The magic of the Internet is such that in a couple of days, this entire thread will have vanished and *POOF* fresh start for everyone.
Allan
@Jim C.:
This is very funny. There are regulars at BJ who will link to comments others made three years ago at the slightest provocation.
You will carry those sagging tits like an albatross around your neck until the end of time.
ABL
oh, and i banned that motorik cockwallet because he sucks and has been doing so for quite some time. at least CS and “fuckie” have had enough class to keep the “Poke ABL with a Stick” game off my threads.
also, too, i think it’s amusing that no matter WHAT i post, the thread devolves into a clusterfuck.
WINNING.
(no one says that anymore, do they?)
Roger Moore
@eemom:
I’m not boob challenged; I’m Y chromosome enhanced, thank you very much. On the issue of circumcision, I’m generally opposed to permanently removing original equipment without a good reason. The arguments I’ve seen in favor of circumcision don’t seem to cut it with me. They’re people who have been practicing circumcision for a long time trying to justify it, not people who are looking for the best evidence of whether it’s a good idea. The supposed benefits are better available other ways (e.g. washing properly, using condoms, getting vaccinated against HPV) that don’t involve the risk of surgical complications.
Violet
@Jim C.:
Yes, I understand how Federalism works.
And in this case the law did not make their local community happy, as it was the women in that community that organized the protest.
It is not just ABL who thinks this could be a slippery slope. The woman in the community who organized the protest said:
She saw that it could be a slippery slope of women’s rights being infringed upon and/or taken away.
As for equating this to “crying wolf,” that’s not really a good analogy. In that story there is no wolf (until the end). In this case you don’t think there’s a ‘wolf’ (worthwhile issue), the women in the community and clearly a lot of people who post here, do.
Has it occurred to you that organizing women for something like this breastfeeding issue might be of benefit when some issue that you think is deserving of being protested, like the “forcible rape” issue, comes up? The women have already been organized and been out and protested. It’s easier to do it a second time if you’ve done it once already.
Jim C.
@eemom:
Yeah, yeah…
And you’re a judgmental, idiotic prick with no ability to understand nuance/shades of gray or respond in a non-personal way.
Feel free to hook up with the other Jim who said this.
“Whatever. I bused tables for a year, and one night this beautiful German lady was breastfeeding, and it was the goddamn highlight of my career.”
ABL
@eemom: or at posh creameries in socialistic Europe.
Roger Moore
@ABL:
That’s a reflection on the community here, not on you. Cole’s posts turn into clusterfucks, too, you know.
eemom
I’m sorry ABL. The outcome of this thread has proved me wrong. We actually need a constitutional amendment protecting public breastfeeding for children up to age 18. It’s the only way to move the Overton window far enough to be visible on the average radar screen.
Jim C.
@Violet:
It does make sense to leverage on an existing issue to keep motivation going. I won’t argue that.
I’m also aware that it’s damned hard to remain angry for extended periods of time. It’s why you had two very different elections in 2008 and 2010.
Anger is a difficult thing to maintain. It’s emotionally draining and it takes a ton of energy.
I’m also aware of the fact that the people who stay up until midnight posting on internet message blogs about politics aren’t exactly the majority in this country. You have a limited number of silver bullets to fire when you want to get the vast majority of the uninterested, lazy slobs in this country tuned in and paying attention.
Every single issue cannot be priority number 1 because then you DO end up with a Boy Who Cried Wolf mindset with the vast majority of the people in this country who don’t care as much as we do.
And it makes it a lot harder to get them to REALLY sit up and pay attention when they want to push through the Paul Ryan budget or overturn Roe vs. Wade.
I’m not unaware of the slippery slope issue. But I just AM aware that you can’t be at Defcon 1 ALL THE TIME or Defcon 1 loses all meaning.
It’s like that stupid terrorism alert thing. Does the fact we’re at yellow or orange or whatever alert really register anymore?
Jim C.
@Allan:
Another part of the magic of the Internet is the ability to get a fresh start.
ABL
@eemom: i am laughing because it is funny, but i’m also crying a little on the inside because it’s not that much wackier than the current brand of Republican-style shenannies.
Amir_Khalid
@Roger Moore:
To the extent of causing performance issues? Really? That’s a new one on me, I have to admit.
Agree that keeping one’s willy clean should only be an issue in unusual circumstances like paralysis or gross obesity. But guys’ standards of personal hygiene can, well, vary.
@Jim C.:
I wouldn’t agree (nor would many other BJers) with your perception that ABL’s outrage is, to any extent, over the top. By itself, a regulation like she’s objecting to is pettifogging and a real hindrance to mothers of children with particular issues. That it’s part of a pattern of general unhelpfulness, or even hostility, to women and their needs as mothers, as ABL says, doesn’t sound like that great a leap to me.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@eemom:
well, having an atheist father who is also a physician, helps.
i do think its a mutilation, because um, well, not to get too technical here, but, it is part of the original equipment, not a factory extra, not like rust proofing the undercarriage or anything right?
i can see the cultural advantage of doing it, but then again, jumping off a bridge, or going to law school,. amirite?
Allan
@Jim C.: Seriously, have you ever read or participated in the comments threads of BJ before?
You’re going to need to rechristen yourself with a new handle, and even after that, CS will perform linguistic analysis to prove that your new ID is just a sockpuppet.
Violet
@Jim C.:
We’re not at orange anymore because the Obama administration’s DHS got rid of the stupid color coding. For the very reason you mention.
I agree that we can’t be at Defcon whatever all the time or people lose interest. But honestly, just how many people are reading ABL’s post on breastfeeding (no offense, ABL)? Is that post the thing that’s going to be the last straw in making non-political people tune out politics? Really?
I’m not sure what your issue is anymore. Are you upset about breastfeeding, this one community’s law, ABL’s post style, the overall tone of political discussion in the US? Something else?
Jim C.
@Amir_Khalid:
That’s okay. I don’t mind being in the minority on an issue.
I don’t disagree with the pattern you’re describing. ABL has made a great many of posts that are spot on over the last couple of months documenting the right’s extensive war on women to replace their lack of ideas on the jobs front.
My disagreement is very narrow in focus with the many BJ regulars that I’ve ticked off here tonight.
I’ve noticed that most folks have no issues whatsoever pointing out over-the-top rhetoric from the other side and almost never do it on their own side.
For example, I noticed a couple of
“anyone who harasses a breast feeding woman deserves to have a gun pointed at them till they back away and leave her the fuck alone.”
comments from Cliff that people would be up in arms about if someone on the right had jumped to “First Amendment” remedies on.
I don’t think this is a hyper extreme issue worthy of 4 fire alarm bells on. It’s why it’s the only one of ABL’s series of posts on the subject I’ve objected to. Others disagree.
That’s the way these discussions work.
Jim C.
@Violet:
Not sure how I’ve been unclear here.
My issue is on the hyperventilating over what I consider to be a relatively minor issue.
Jim C.
@Allan:
So what’s your point? My views are legitimate. If I’ve disagreed on something, I’ve done so in a straightforward way giving my reasoning behind my views. With the exception of my first post, when folks have responded to me intellectually I’ve responded the same way back.
And when folks have responded to me in a douche manner I’ve also responded the same way back.
I’ve participated in a few BJ threads in the past, though not nearly to this extent to answer your question.
But I see nothing at all wrong with how I’ve conducted myself in this thread relative to the community norm.
Cliff in NH
Are you aware of timezones you fucking moron?
Also too, some of us are traders and are somewhat on euro time whether we like it or not.
You are Scum and we won’t forget it. Ever.
Roger Moore
@Amir_Khalid:
Not to the point of causing performance issues, but to the point of reducing enjoyment. And, while thankfully rare, there are occasional complications that lead to severe loss of function.
Mnemosyne
@clay:
Yes, because this is one of those restrictions. It may be a relatively minor one compared to abortion, but letting the government arrest a woman for breastfeeding her 2 1/2 year old child in public is on the same spectrum.
I have a feeling that some of the gentlemen here don’t realize that when we talk about restrictions on women’s reproductive rights being bad, we’re talking about the whole cycle, not just pregnancy. A woman’s right to autonomy doesn’t end when she gives birth any more than it ends when she gets pregnant.
hamletta
@Jim C.:
Excuse me?!
I don’t believe I was the one complaining of saggy tittage. That was your contribution to the conversation.
Since you’ve never met me, or my tits, I don’t see where you get off saying this.
Violet
@Jim C.:
Whose “hyperventilating”? ABL’s? People who commented?
Well, this bit had me thinking you meant that somehow ABL’s post was going to affect non-politically interested people’s opinions:
And I don’t think non-politically interested people are going to be reading ABL’s posts at Balloon-Juice. So if somehow ABL’s and or B-J commenters’ tones are going to affect non-politically interested people’s opinions of political subjects, then I’m curious how you think that is going to happen.
Jim C.
@Cliff in NH:
“Are you aware of timezones you fucking moron?
Also too, some of us are traders and are somewhat on euro time whether we like it or not.
You are Scum and we won’t forget it. Ever.”
With this reply and your gun comments you seriously need a shrink Cliffy.
Unless you’re in Hawaii or Alaska, it’s 11:00 PM at THE EARLIEST here in the United States. With your name being “Cliff in NH” it isn’t an unreasonable assumption to think you’re in New Hampshire and it’s nearly 2:00 AM there.
Regardless, the basic point of it being pretty much midnight for most people in this thread is a sound one.
And as for me being “scum” well, sure, why not? As for the “we” who won’t forget it…
I guess that’s just something that I’ll have to find a way to live with. It’ll be hard…but I’ll find a way.
Somehow.
Cliff in NH
@Jim C.:
If you go anywhere near a feeding female, and harass her like you are doing here I would go quite a ways to defend a female from males like you.
Jim C.
@hamletta:
You said:
“Oh, we’re all careful now! No mention of saggy tits. Would you like a cookie?”
In other words, a patronizing post attacking me. I responded in the same tone/manner by attacking back.
I then invited you to have an adult conversation, and suggested an available alternative if you chose not to take me up on it.
In other words, I’ll respond in the exact same manner you post towards me.
Post towards me intellectually responding to my arguments and I’ll do the same.
Post towards me with personal attacks and I’ll do the same.
Cliff in NH
@Jim C.:
dickwad clearly isn’t aware what time euro premarket opens. I’m up EVERY NIGHT at this time. its my job.
Is it your job to harass nursing female humans?
Jim C.
@Violet:
Is it unreasonable to think that the attitudes we form on the websites we read are carried outside of those websites?
hamletta
@Jim C.: Oh, what butthurt!
Forget it, Jake, it’s the internet. Y’all deal with this twatwaffle. I’m done.
Jim C.
@Cliff in NH:
“If you go anywhere near a feeding female, and harass her like you are doing here I would go quite a ways to defend a female from males like you.”
God I love Internet tough guys.
“Is it your job to harass nursing female humans?”
Gosh no! I quit the Cylon party back in 2003. I totally restrict myself to harassing nursing female Klingons now!
What’s your policy on threatening violence towards those harassing female Klingons?
Jim C.
@hamletta:
No butthurt.
Simple explanation. You attacked. I responded. You didn’t get it. I explained the timeline of events.
I’m only a twatwaffle towards those who are a twatwaffle towards me. I’m quite reasonable towards those who actually debate with me on an intellectual level.
Mnemosyne
@Roger Moore:
Though I myself do not have said equipment, this is what I lean towards myself. Circumcision became widespread in the US because of anti-masturbation hysteria and eventually became self-perpetuating. IIRC, the US is pretty much the only country left that routinely circumcises male infants.
This book cured me of thinking infant circumcision was risk-free and not a big deal. It’s low risk, but the potential consequences are sufficiently horrible that I don’t see any rational reason for it to be a routine operation like it is now.
ABL
@hamletta: twatwaffle!
i’m taking credit for making that happen, whether or not such credit is due to me!
+4.1
Cliff in NH
Love how assholes can’t defend themselves without changing the subject, How much are you paid per post Troll?
Jim C.
@Cliff in NH:
Get help. Seriously.
jimbob
@Jim C.: Please for the sake of civility, STFU.
Allan
@Jim C.: Another funny thing about the internets: when people see you behaving as a twatwaffle toward others, they are just as likely to conclude that the twatwaffle is the natural expression of your true nature, and the efforts at “intellectual” debate simply a mask for the twatwaffle that rages within.
Jim C.
@Allan:
Perhaps you can point out where I was a twatwaffle towards those who weren’t a twatwaffle towards me first?
At no point during this entire thread have I responded as a “twatwaffle” towards anyone who wasn’t first that way towards me.
Violet
@Jim C.:
It’s not unreasonable, no. But again, ABL and the few other people among the commenters who have a tone you don’t think is appropriate are enough to sway non-politically interested people’s opinions in the wrong direction? Really?
I’m out too. Can’t figure out why I’ve stayed up this late. Must be the chocolate chip cookies I ate far too late. Sugar high. I’m off to bed now.
Jim C.
@jimbob:
I appreciate the sentiment, but I haven’t done anything wrong, so, no, I won’t do STFU.
I have taken exactly two approaches in this thread.
1. To people who have debated intellectually, I have responded in kind.
2. To people who have attacked me personally, I have responded in kind.
Cliff in NH
@<a href="#comment-2609110">Jim C.:
jimbob
@Mnemosyne:
Allan
@Jim “Sagging Tits” C.: Actually, it is in how you choose to respond to those you have deemed to be twatwaffles that your character is revealed. Being civil with those who are civil to you is no test at all.
Jim C.
@Violet:
My parents both voted Republican up until I started sending them articles I found on the Internet while I was in college and talking them over with them.
This was right about the leadup to the Iraq war.
Since then, they’re diehard liberals. They both are frequent volunteers for political campaigns in my state and have spend hundreds of hours over the years on Democratic causes.
So, yeah, I DO think that what we say to other people matters. I DO think that the views and the tone we take when we leave our own little comforting circles of liberal blogs that we love makes a difference when we’re trying to convince other people.
Jim C.
@Allan:
If that’s the test then I feel comfortable saying that every single person in this thread has failed it…not just me.
Mnemosyne
@Jim C.:
Since your very first comment on here included the “sagging, unpleasant tits” line, I’m not sure who you think was a twatwaffle to you before you even commented.
If you’re still confused as to why people took offense at your deciding that the sexual attractiveness of a woman’s breasts should be the deciding factor in whether or not she breastfeeds in public, I think ellaesther summed it up best:
Given that the societal problem is that women’s breasts are inappropriately sexualized, can you kinda see why you set people’s backs up by setting yourself up as the breastfeeding police and deciding that only women with perky breasts should be allowed to feed their children in public?
(Edited for formatting fail.)
Cliff in NH
Defend Your dislike of lactating tits asshole.
Jim C.
@Cliff in NH:
“It’s been a long week and I’m a bit tired. I probably should have worded that post a little better.”
“Yeah, I probably shouldn’t have made the “zergling” or the “saggy, unpleasant tits” comments. This is a time when my “tone of voice” didn’t exactly translate well. I was trying for “wry sarcasm” as a response to ABL’s original post and apparently didn’t make that quite clear.”
Not that it will make any difference with you. (Or anyone else.)
Allan
@Mnemosyne: But Mnemosyne, that was more than 90 comments ago! You can’t hold Jim “Sagging Tits” C accountable for ancient history like that.
hamletta
@ABL: Well, it’s not due to me, either, as I nicked it from the Magnificent Miss April Winchell of Regretsy.
Violet
I know I said I was going to bed. But…
@Jim C.:
Do you really think that how people “talk” on a liberal blog is exactly how they’ll speak when they speak with those whose political views differ from theirs? Some people may, but those who are trying to persuade others most likely won’t.
You think that someone spouting off on B-J is exactly how they’d speak to their grandmother or pastor or teacher or politically-undecided (and maybe persuadable!) friend? I doubt that. Sure, there are probably some people who can’t modify their manner of speaking to suit varying circumstances, but that’s not terribly common. Most people can adapt their style of speaking as necessary and prudent.
Jim C.
@Mnemosyne:
My first comment was a reply to this comment (as I’ve stated numerous times):
“Don’t the coppers have better things to do than confront breastfeeding women and demand to know the age of a toddler? Is this the burgeoning birth certificatification of America? Are we going to require babies to produce their birth certificates so lawmakers can verify whether or not to assess penalties against their mothers?
Although—yep—I guess I sort of see the point. I mean, women aren’t really supposed to be out of the house unattended anyway; far too much cooking and cleaning to do. Why do they even need to be outside at all?
Women can’t be trusted. Women are troublemakers and their rights must be restricted lest they run wild spewing estrogen hither and yon.
By the way, “lactivist” is the best portmanteau in all land.”
I responded in the same tone as the original post.
Perhaps that was completely out of line.
As for the “sexual attractiveness” thing…please see the four or five comments I’ve made since where I admitted that my tone of voice/sarcasm didn’t translate well.
Otherwise…if that isn’t sufficient for you, well, I guess I don’t give a **** because I’ve very clearly delineated the rationale and reasoning behind my views in about 30 posts since then and if you choose to focus on only my VERY FIRST post then there’s nothing I can do about it.
Mnemosyne
@Jim C.:
But the reason it didn’t come across as “wry sarcasm” was because it was buying in to the exact attitude that ABL was criticizing with this post — namely, that the female breast is such a sexual object that using it to feed a toddler is something shameful.
Just saying, next time you try for “wry sarcasm,” you should probably try not to echo the sexist assholes who are being mocked.
Violet
Given where the comments in this thread have gone, I have to say I LOL’d when the ad at the top of my page when I refreshed screamed “Who Says You Can’t Find Quality Men Online?”
Twatwaffles!
Allan
@Jim C.: Protip: when you’ve spent more words than the original post explaining how you’re intellectually and morally superior to the people who took offense at your first comment, you should probably stop digging.
Jim C.
@Violet:
Actually, I think it’s a pretty rare ability for people to SUCCESSFULLY adapt their tone of voice outwardly in order to be good at persuading folks of different viewpoints.
This thread is an absolutely golden example of it.
Allan & 212 said that the test of someone’s character was how they responded when someone was being a twatwaffle towards them. I replied that if that was the case then that’s something we’ve all pretty much failed in this thread.
But more to the point, look at the thread since my first post. I made one poorly chosen tone post and since then have made every effort to try and discuss the subject in question. And yet, virtually every single post since is, with a few exceptions like (THANK YOU) yours, has been an attack or a request for an apology from me.
How do you think that flies outwardly? Imagine I’m so normal Joe off the street who disagreed with the subject of breastfeeding in public. I’ve been called everything from a misogynist to an asshole to having been threatened with a gun.
I’m kind of a veteran of Internet flame wars and it doesn’t bother me so much. But if people couldn’t restrain themselves for ONE post that wasn’t worded very well, do you REALLY think that most folks do a good job offline? I’m skeptical.
How many people on here can REALLY claim that they’ve successfully changed anyone’s views on a permanent basis?
Contrary to the performance that I’ve put on in THIS thread, I’m actually usually pretty decent at engaging and persuading people.
But I do think that how you act and how you view the world is a habit.
Yutsano
@Violet:
This only makes me want Belgian confections with strawberry goodness.
EDIT: And chicken. But only because I’ve been to Atlanta.
ABL
@Violet: Hahahaha. Amazing.
Jim C.
@Allan:
Thanks for the tip.
I’ll keep it in mind. Mind pointing out where I’ve portrayed myself as intellectually and morally superior?
Last I checked, my response to you was:
“If that’s the test then I feel comfortable saying that every single person in this thread has failed it…not just me.”
In other words, I explicitly said that I’ve done a piss poor job in this thread.
ABL
@Jim C.: This blog is a hotbed of assholicism. If the fate of politics lies herein, we are all fucked — well and good.
Cliff in NH
And I’ll repeat it, If you harrass a feeding female don’t be surprised to find a gun in your face.
Allan
@Jim C.: You were busy proving my point by composing #225 while I was posting #224. My work here is done.
Jim C.
@ABL:
It’s your blog. I’m just a guest stating my opinion. About the only thing that I really find eyebrow raising that you haven’t stepped in on is the minimum three separate times Cliffy there has threatened a gun in my face.
Everything else is fair game Internet, but I’m genuinely disappointed that in all the moral outrage everyone has seen fit to send my way NOBODY has felt that Cliffy Palin there was worth a few words.
Jim C.
@Allan:
I’ll look forward to you retiring in victory and bringing your troops home from the Vietnam that this thread has become then.
Godspeed sir.
Violet
@Jim C.:
Well, I think that politically people are hard to persuade, at least in this country where we seem to have turned politics into a “red team/blue team” type of thing. People don’t switch teams all that easily.
I don’t think any of us can truly claim to have changed anyone’s views. People change their own views. All we can do is contribute to that process. And permanently? Most people’s views on things will change throughout their lives.
Jim C.
@Violet:
I had a professor in college once who discussed the subject. Basically, she said ignore the 30% on one side because they agree with you already and won’t change their opinion. Ignore the 30% on the other side because they disagree with you already and won’t change their opinion.
Just focus on the 40% that are persuadable in the middle.
Pretty fair summation of politics I guess.
I agree with you that peoples’ views are hard to change. It doesn’t happen overnight. I think it happens over time and the best way to do it is little, gentle nudges here and there along the way.
The “hard sale” approach is more than likely to backfire IMO and make people dig in all the harder.
Cliff in NH
So You think it’s your god given right to harass a female feeding her baby in public…. If you don’t harass the female; her males, or her, or me won’t put the gun in your face. It’s That Simple.
scarshapedstar
@Lysana:
That’s a real one-two punch, innit? Chop off part of my favorite body part for no reason, and then call me (and my “kind” ?!) an asshole for not celebrating its absence. Like it’s a haircut.
I can only conclude that if some rabbi told you that God wanted him to carve out a piece of your labia majora, you’d joyously acquiesce to it.
Violet
I really am going to bed now. Sheesh, it’s late.
Jim C.
@Cliff in NH:
You really don’t know when to quit do you?
You’re now on the record for a minimum of four separate times threatening to stick a gun in my face.
For the record, I’ve never, not even once, said a word to any woman, anywhere, breastfeeding a baby in public.
So you can ease up there Rambo. Even if you weren’t totally unconvincing in your Internet Tough Guy role, I’d be unworthy of your Vigilante time.
Jim C.
@Violet:
Goodnight Violet.
Thank you for the debate.
Church Lady
I’ll wade into this brouhaha. Most, not all, people don’t care about the breastfeeding of infants in public, as long as Mom is discreet. Starting somewhere after the first birthday, and certainly by the second, people in public spaces start to get a little uncomfortable. Why? Because by that point, the child has a whole lot of teeth, is eating solid food, is presumably drinking a variety of liquids, and is not dependent on breast milk for nourishment. Also, at that age, the ability to breastfeed discreetly is a whole lot more difficult. I find it hard to believe that a three or four year old has to be breastfed in public. Surely that is something that most people that continue to breastfeed after age two can do at home either before they go out or when they return. If it’s that important, pump and put it in a bottle.
Cliff in NH
@Jim C.:
You can’t read can you?
Yutsano
@Cliff in NH:
Way OT, but I always like to take the time to acknowledge a fellow night shifter.
Mnemosyne
@Church Lady:
So therefore it should be illegal to breastfeed your child in public past the age of 2?
Because that’s what we’re talking about. Not just social disapproval, but requiring police to handcuff a woman and take her to jail because you think her toddler is too old to be breastfed in public.
(Edited for word change.)
Cliff in NH
IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass IF you harass
Can you F’n read? Why is this anyone’s business but the feeding female?!
WHY the fuck do you think a female should be arrested for feeding a child of any age? Why the fuck should the Gov care what age a child is breastfeeding. WTF dude?!
Fuck Off.
Jim C.
@Cliff in NH:
Gosh you’re right.
“anyone who harasses a breast feeding woman deserves to have a gun pointed at them till they back away and leave her the fuck alone.”
“I think such a asshole should have a gun shoved in their face if they make Any move toward a nursing mother. You would then have the uncomfortable sight that you deserve to see with that attitude.
Dogs and Lions have a advantage on humans here.”
“If you go anywhere near a feeding female, and harass her like you are doing here I would go quite a ways to defend a female from males like you.”
“And I’ll repeat it, If you harrass a feeding female don’t be surprised to find a gun in your face.”
“So You think it’s your god given right to harass a female feeding her baby in public…. If you don’t harass the female; her males, or her, or me won’t put the gun in your face. It’s That Simple.”
Gosh. I must not be able to read. I can’t imagine how I perceived a threat of gun violence in your posts in your explicit and repeated comments, some of which specifically state YOU putting a gun in my face.
Cliff in NH
@Cliff in NH:
Oh I see, Maybe he Can read, and is saying that he Will harass the feeding female, so that’s why I have a gun in his face DEFENDING THE FEMALE AND BABY.
Jim C.
@Cliff in NH:
Um…Cliffy….
It doesn’t matter if you qualify it.
“IF you harass THEN I’ll put a gun in your face” doesn’t make it alright.
It’s still a gun threat. And it’s still an outright embarrassment for anyone who is sharing your viewpoint. The fact that nobody has yet called you out on it says a whole lot actually.
Cliff in NH
You are defending the harassment of females feeding their young. Really?
WOW.
Allan
@Jim C.: Are you waiting for a prize for not being the most offensive commenter on the thread?
Very well then, here’s your silver. Wear it with pride.
Jim C.
@Allan:
Didn’t you already declare victory? I thought you had already determined that you had bested me and decided to call it a night?
Although it says a whole lot that you rematerialized for the sole purpose of attacking me again rather than belatedly calling out someone making gun threats.
Great priorities.
Allan
@Jim C.: A good general continues to monitor the battlefield for signs of a resurgent enemy.
From what I understand of the other commenter’s rant, as long as you refrain from attacking and/or arresting women who are breastfeeding in public, you’re golden.
That’s not going to be a problem for you, I trust.
Jim C.
@Allan:
So, General Allan, to make sure that I understand:
Making a snide remark about a possible worst case scenario in response to what I felt was over-the-top rhetoric in the TC’s post of a really unattractive someone breastfeeding in public disturbing someone (say when they’re at an expensive restaurant) is completely out of line and deserving of intense attention and prudish, Puritanical disapproval and posting correction over the course of multiple hours.
Repeated and persistent gun threats against someone with potentially differing political views (even after that someone long previously explained and expanded on those views) isn’t worth looking down your nose and wagging your finger at.
The really sad thing is that I’m not even an enemy.
As I said a long time ago, I’m someone who is probably a 95% liberal. You know how Democrats have a reputation for eating their own?
Yeah.
MattR
@Cliff in NH: Your shit is inappropriate and unacceptable even if you try to weasel out by claiming you prefaced it with “if”
(EDIT: I am disappointed, but not surprised, to see this particular group of commenters excuse this behavior)
Jim C.
@MattR:
Thank you. Sincerely.
Cliff in NH
@MattR:
Well, If I had a wife, and If she was feeding my kid, and If some asshole started to harass her for feeding it, I would have No problem Whatso ever defending her from that asshole.
That also goes for Any female I see being harassed by Any male in Any public place. Anywhere.
Allan
@Jim C.: Yeah, you pretty much nailed it, except that you already declared when these threats materialized that you didn’t take them seriously or feel intimidated by them in any way.
But they became important to you when you realized that you had unpantsed yourself in a public forum as a raging asshole with a pathology about women’s breasts.
Now, you point to them as proof that someone else is morally inferior to you, and claim that everyone else who is reading the exchange is morally inferior to you because they are not dignifying them with a response, which somehow proves that we endorse them.
If you’re really concerned about these threatening comments, you should probably email the blog owner John Cole about them. I’m sure he’ll be very receptive to your concerns. There’s a link in the upper right hand corner of the page just for that purpose.
Good night.
MattR
@Cliff in NH: And to defend your wife you would immediately introduce a gun to the situation? Beyond being a complete overreaction that makes you as much of an asshole as the harrasser, it is stupidly putting your family into a more dangerous situation. It is in fact possible to defend your wife in a way that does not escalate things.
@Allan:
How the fuck does this make it acceptable? Just because your target recognizes that it is just talk on the Internet means that any sort of language is OK? If Jim C had made a comment that if he saw a woman breastfeeding her child he would pull a gun on her, he would have gotten eviscerated and possibly have been given a timeout by ABL. But since he has taken a position opposite the masses, that kind of language aimed at him is OK.
Jim C.
@Cliff in NH:
Granted I’m an asshole, but a little bit of unsolicited advice.
Women hate it when you refer to them in ways like “the breast feeding women” or the “feeding female”.
“This asshole” may be a lot of things, but I’m also a very happily married man of nearly ten years, primarily because I don’t take the caveman approach of assuming that my beautiful, intelligent and strong woman isn’t capable of standing up for and taking care of herself.
Granted, if she ever needed me I’d be there, but many modern women believe (correctly) that they can take care of themselves and would be offended by a somewhat Neanderthalish attitude.
My wife, just as an example, has spent several years studying martial arts and could probably kick my ass all across the house if she truly wanted to.
Cliff in NH
after this thread she may want to kick your ass.
Jim C.
@Allan:
My being not at all intimidated by them doesn’t mean that they don’t serve a valid point.
The fact I recognize them as being a bunch of BS doesn’t mean that they aren’t completely out of bounds, far more so than my “unpantsed” views. My pointing out the amount of effort spend attacking me versus the complete condolence of Cliff isn’t at all “proof” as you imply of my having “lost” a debate.
If anything, it’s proof of your hypocrisy, tribalism and double standards. If someone agrees with you, then they are to be left alone and ignored no matter how offensive what they say is.
I’m perfectly willing to defend my views on their merits and to argue my point of view.
A surprisingly few number of people INCLUDING YOU have been willing to do this. Your posts are entirely focused on everything from my technique for defending myself from personal attacks/flaming to my morals.
You’ve given virtually no time to debating my points.
I’m perfectly comfortable with where I stand now.
Cliff in NH
@MattR:
you seem to think Defense is Offense.
Got a problem there?
Jim C.
@Cliff in NH:
I asked her to read this thread after post 95 or so to get her opinion as a woman to see if I was out of line.
Granted, we don’t have kids so maybe she’s not a “feeding female” in mindset, but she’s completely okay with me. If it matters at all, her sister just had her fourth kid though so maybe I can invite her in to see if she agrees with your view?
Cliff in NH
@Jim C.:
So, How much are you paid per post Troll? Do You get overtime with that?
Allan
@Jim C.: Actually, you should be honored that I perceive in your comments a level of intelligence and humanity that makes your contributions worthy of discussion. I’m not sure what good would come from engaging with someone making empty internet threats of violence, and in fact have learned, as you appear not to have, that such interactions tend only to inflame the offender.
You’ll notice that there are a great many comments posted to this thread to which I have not chosen to respond, including some others that were even more offensive than yours.
If you are now setting a standard that no one may take you to task unless they also publicly excoriate every other offensive comment posted, I’m not going to be able to live up to that. I’ll try to cope as best I can with the knowledge that I’ve failed to follow your rules.
Cliff in NH
@Jim C.:
maybe you should tell her that she should be arrested for feeding in public without a birth certificate to prove her kid is under 2..
Cliff in NH
@Allan:
there are no threats of violence, unless some asshole harasses a woman.
Jim C.
@Allan:
No, that makes sense. I can understand the standard that you’re applying when you express it and can’t blame you for it.
So how about we make a deal?
I’ll let you off the hook for failing to respond to the double-standard of the multitude of very offensive comments in this thread directed towards me that you failed to denounce if you’ll acknowledge that VERY early on (post 84) I acknowledged that I made an unfortunate first contribution to this thread based on an initial slightly irritable response to what I felt was an over-the-top hyperbolic presentation of the issue in question.
When you get right down to it, and I suspect you’re smart enough to realize this, my views aren’t really that horrible or offensive here. Outside of my initial first sarcastic post – and the posts where I’ve justifiably smacked people back across the mouth when they’ve been dickish towards me – I’ve been pretty damn reasonable.
It may (or not) surprise you, but I really am a freaking flaming liberal. Being in a flamewar on a liberal blog is NOT how I expected to spend my evening with my rum and cokes.
I objected to the dogpile of what I felt was a surprising amount over the top outrage towards me. As a rule, I don’t respond well to what I feel is bullying, unfair gang-attack tactics and hypocrisy. When it is weekends where I can sleep in the following morning, I’m quite willing to go to the proverbial mattresses.
Jim C.
@Cliff in NH:
Kay. I said that to her just to see her reaction.
1. “It’s a good thing I’m not in the habit of doing that.”
2. “I don’t understand why there needs to be a law against that. Indecent exposure is already illegal.”
3. “Why on earth would I want to breastfeed a child older than two years old? Those teeth are SHARP!”
Cliff in NH
How do you think the women feel who you are denouncing/arresting for feeding their kids in public asshole?
Cliff in NH
Explain, assholes how feeding a child is “Indecent”
Jim C.
@Cliff in NH:
“Explain, asshole how feeding a child is “Indecent” ”
Hold on a moment. I’ll let my wife know you called her an asshole and get her thoughts on the indecent thing. One moment.
Cliff in NH
Oh, I bet its some religions shit, well we got a fucking constitution to protect US from YOU.
edit: fixt prev post for you both.
Jim C.
Okay…
Her response to your post was:
1. A lot of laughter
2. “It’s not…but showing your boobs in public probably counts as indecent.”
3. “And he’s funny.”
Allan
@Jim C.: I have a counter-proposal:
You go read Derailing for Dummies, and pay special attention to Don’t You Have More Important Issues to Think About, then stop back by here and demonstrate with a heartfelt comment that you have been busted for your privileged derailing tactics and apologize to everyone?
Then we can hold hands and sing Kumbayah.
Cliff in NH
@Jim C.:
hey morons you don’t have to show your tits to nurse your kids.
edit: badly said, It is possible to be circumspect, got it?
Jim C.
@Allan:
*shrugs*
Well, I guess that covers my responsibility for your point here.
“Actually, it is in how you choose to respond to those you have deemed to be twatwaffles that your character is revealed. Being civil with those who are civil to you is no test at all.”
I made a good faith attempt. You rejected it. Keep that in mind going forward.
I didn’t derail anything. I responded to the topic in hand, got attacked for it, and from there onwards responded in kind to how people responded to me.
By your own standard, I made a fair attempt towards being nice in my last post. Congratulations Mr. Morally Superior.
vaux-rien
This is a public nudity ordinance, which whether you think it’s reasonable or not, limits the freedoms of everybody, not just nursing mothers, or even women. And the only people objecting is this narrow group of hippy moms. Now personally I think the two-years-old thing is arbitrary, unnecessary and stupid so I applaud these mothers and their La Leche League compatriots for standing up for their interests.
But again, it’s a public nudity law with an exception for nursing mothers so all the folks in here jumping to “Georgia is outlawing breast-feeding” and bringing up burkas and shit are out of their fucking minds.
My charitable interpretation is that they didn’t originally want to put that clause in there but they realized that if they didn’t they would have to pass a strict no-unsolicited-parenting-advice law, and while I think that’s a fine idea they were unable to pass it because we live in a nation of busy-bodies.
I have no strong opinion on the proper age to wean a child but if I did I would keep it to myself.
@Cliff in NH:
“there are no threats of violence, unless some asshole harasses a woman.”
You fancy yourself the defender of women but you’re just some creep who gets off on fantasizing about doing violence to your imagined enemies. If you really do own a gun then you’re in the position to rid society of a dangerous asshole and I suggest you take advantage of it.
Allan
@Jim C.:
Oh yes, your proposal was positively dripping with good faith, as here:
I have already explained to you that I reject your contention that I have any obligation to address every offensive comment on this thread, whether directed at you, or in alignment with your offensive entry into it.
But it was kind of you to acknowledge my moral superiority there at the end. I thank you for that.
;-)
Cliff in NH
@vaux-rien:
Back away from the woman feeding her child, Don’t tell her she will be arrested for feeding her child, Don’t Harass women feeding their children.
Cliff in NH
@vaux-rien:
If YOU have a problem with a woman feeding her child YOU leave the area, whatever religion tells you that a woman feeding a child is indecent, that’s Your problem, not hers so back the fuck off.
Jim C.
@Allan:
Translation: Any attempt that doesn’t necessitate a complete grovelling surrender to General Allan is not a good faith attempt.
I offered a fair exchange. You rejected.
In the spirit of…
“Actually, you should be honored”
I’ll be honored that you’ve deigned to utterly reject my good faith olive branch going forward by completely rejecting any responsibility on your part.
As we move on from here, just know that I made the attempt. I *genuinely* (can’t stress that enough) tried to find common ground and it wasn’t good enough and you revealed your true character.
Last post in the thread.
ABL
Oh sweet Jesus. What have I wrought?
This thread has officially jumped the shark.
Lights out, people!
Cliff in NH
@ABL:
G’nite, I think I said my piece. I’m Done.
Allan
@ABL: You can’t post any more comments, ABL! Jim “Sagging Tits” C. already exercised his privilege to declare the thread closed.
Amir_Khalid
This is why I like Balloon Juice so much. Where else can I find a flame war on a topic as innocent as nursing mothers?
Jim C.
@Amir_Khalid:
Hopefully nowhere. This thread is a god damn poster child to liberals eating their own.
P.S. – Yes, I know I said last post and I’m going back on it.
P.P.S. – And yes, Allan you knew damn well what I meant when I said “Last post in the thread” you twat. Congrats on getting a final dig in on another liberal and dragging another post out of that one. I’m sure you feel very proud about taking a final shot at someone who agrees with pretty much everything you feel. Hope it’s worth it.
Allan
@Jim C.: But if you lied about that being your last post, how can I ever trust anything you write?
Jim C.
@Allan:
Nice deflection. You attacked and I responded.
Par for the course with every post of yours in this thread actually.
I can’t lose what I never had.
Allan
@Jim C.: It’s been fun. Thanks for being so easily goaded.
Jim C.
@Allan:
You’re quite welcome.
Thanks for openly admitting to trolling and ceding that “moral superiority” you’ve talked so much about. With no further editing of posts possible, I’m happy to have that there for posterity.
I’m comfortable still with everything about how I’ve handled myself in this thread.
With your repeated comments about how much certain comments will hang around for posterity, I’ll be looking forward to your own behavior being around for a long time.
harlana
People breastfeed two year olds??? Those kids need to be out working!
harlana
@madmommy: Wow, I hate to be an ass, but folks really need to think about all those things before they have a kid. Woops, hellooo! You are going to be inconvenienced just a tad!
Amir_Khalid
All kidding aside:
In any breastfeeding-in-public situation, there’s a hungry, and very young, child involved. That child’s need comes first, ahead of the sensitivities of any adults in the vicinity. For this reason, I believe that any law, anywhere, regulating public decency should specifically allow a nursing mother to breastfeed in public. The alternative is to give prudes legal permission to disrupt the feeding of a child.
wolfkin
if you’re breastfeeding a two year old you’re doing it wrong.
As someone who isn’t your momma I wouldn’t tell that to anyone
As a man I wouldn’t even share that with anyone out loud who isn’t family.
As a political figure (which I’m not) I DEFINITELY wouldn’t be telling women what age to stop breastfeeding.
Is it gross to breast feed a kinergartener? maybe but (especially if it’s done discretely and noone is saying itisn’t) I got bigger fish to fry.
Matthew
Breast-feeding. It’s better than mango!
eemom
I hereby bestow a posthumous Credenza Award on this thread.
ABL
@eemom: what’s that?
Yutsano
@ABL: An attempt to get this thread to 300 comments. So far it’s succeeding.
General Stuck
@Yutsano:
It’ll never happen
Yutsano
@General Stuck: I win. :)
ABL
This is one of those threads that gets listed under “Things that Make You Go Hmmm.”
ABL
@Yutsano: i still don’t get the credenza award thing, but i don’t get lots of stuff.
like the tides.
YOU CAN’T EXPLAIN THAT.
Yutsano
@ABL: You must be made aware of all Balloon Juice traditions. Read this thread. Epic barely covers it.
PanurgeATL
@Cliff in NH:
Did Jim C. make any such indication? No? All right, then. He may have fucked up, but that’s no excuse for you.