Amid shouts from gangs of men and threats of beatings, police officers arrested more than a dozen gay rights activists, including a few foreigners, who attempted to hold a rally in Moscow on Saturday.
Among the arrested were Dan Choi, an American Iraq war veteran and gay rights campaigner, and Andy Thayer, a Chicago-based activist, who were in Moscow to support the rally. They were later released.
…
The Moscow authorities, who rarely tolerate antigovernment demonstrations, have vowed never to allow Russia’s small community of gay rights activists to hold a rally in the capital, though similar events have been permitted in St. Petersburg, Russia’s second-largest city.Last year, the European Court of Human Rights fined Russia more than $40,000 for its refusal to allow gay rights supporters to hold peaceful demonstrations in Moscow. This year’s rally was banned, nevertheless.
The fight for gay rights in the Western world has often begun at the end of a police baton.
Political oppression and the toleration of brutality will eventually be overcome, but I suspect there will be a lot more photos from Russia like the one above before that happens.
For those of us who take for granted the rights we have to sleep with whoever we want and profess our love in a public forum, this photo bears witness to the enforced silence and fear that others around the world suffer every day simply because they are gay.
Photo: Reuters/Mikhail Voskresensky.
Text added after initial posting. My apologies for just posting the picture without explanation. I’m getting absent minded – Sarah.
Linda Featheringill
I went to the link for the photo and read the blurb and now understand what it’s all about.
So Daniel Cho is evolving into a hero? Hoocudanode?
Russia, of course, all prim and proper. It’s amazing that little Russians keep appearing.
In reality, open sexuality might be the ONLY thing they have not been guilty of at one time or another.
[There was a nasty little rumor around some years ago that the way Russian men made love was a crime, but I wouldn’t know about that. :-)]
harlana
I don’t get it. What’s the story?
Linda Featheringill
@harlana:
Daniel Cho, known for being thrown out of the US military for being gay and known for giving somebody [Reid?] one of his medals to hold until DADT was repealed – this Daniel Cho apparently went to Moscow and participated in a Gay Pride Parade. It seems that the parade did not have a permit. I don’t know if they applied for one or not. But the parade was held anyway.
And Daniel Cho was arrested by a group of plain clothes policemen and that is the picture above.
harlana
Thanks Linda – oh well, maybe I have some old-fashioned notions about Russia but I’m not sure what else you could expect in Moscow
kdaug
Set a course for Martyrdom. Maximum warp, on my mark…
Engage.
spartacus
His name is Dan _Choi_.
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Daniel_Choi
henqiguai
@harlana (#4):
Concur. The only news articles out of Russia on gay rights I have seen all seem to point to the fact that gay rights is not high up on the social agenda there. The outrage and petition signing (at the GOS and Americablog via Huffin’post) seems rather misplaced.
Yevgraf (fka Michael)
My eyeballs hurt. I started the evening at an Irish pub with Jamesons as an appetizer and Woodchuck hard cider with my meal, did an intermediate at the Mexijoint next to the movie theater with Patron and Dos Equis, and finished the night off with Orinoco rum and Sam Adams.
Saw “Hangover II” – it was funny, and now I have one too.
MAJeff
Cross-national data show that Russia is one of the few places in the world getting more anti-gay:
http://www3.law.ucla.edu/williamsinstitute/pdf/Smith-CrossNational-NORC-May2011.pdf
Rihilism
@henqiguai:
Outside of the gay community, gay rights are rarely high up on anyone’s agenda, hence people like Choi trying to draw attention to gay rights…
Um, I think that was kinda the point…
Linda Featheringill
@spartacus:
oops.
KCinDC
We’re 11 comments in, and no snark about the “muscle-bound men with shaved heads”?
Rihilism
@henqiguai:
How so?
KCinDC
I wouldn’t at all say the outrage is misplaced, but I do wonder whether making the Russian movement for LGBT rights into something about foreigners is the best strategy. It seems like the situation is parallel to democracy movements that the United States may be in favor of but doesn’t want to be seen as supporting because it’s detrimental for them to be seen as puppets of the US.
harlana
@Rihilism: Does it makes sense to focus energies and resources in other countries at this point in time? We are at 10% employment and republicans are trying to destroy all social programs that support all vulnerable people, straight and gay.
harlana
I wish that we, as a country, had the luxury to be concerned about social issues in Russia, I really do. I’m sorry but we dont.
Sarah Proud and Tall
@harlana:
So we just turn a blind eye to oppression of any kind anywhere in the world because Americans have problems at home?
Nice.
spartacus
Thank God I’ve finally discovered who’s in charge of “us”!
Please send me the list of what I am allowed to be concerned about and how I am permitted to express these concerns.
Thx in advance.
Sarah Proud and Tall
@harlana:
How about gay men being hung in Iraq or stoned to death in Nigeria or tortured in Zimbabwe or lesbians being raped in South Africa to “fix” them?
Is that important enough for your concern and action not to be a luxury?
Rihilism
@KCinDC: Huh?
@harlana: People have been known to walk and chew gum at the same time…
Rihilism
@harlana:
Thank God that’s settled then…
Sarah Proud and Tall
@KCinDC:
I don’t disagree with this, but at the same time “Fifteen gay Russians arrested in Moscow” doesn’t get you very far towards the front of the newspaper.
Alex S.
@Sarah Proud and Tall:
Not very far in American newspapers, true, but why should that be a factor in Russia?
Edit: Noone in Russia cares about Dan Choi. I don’t understand why he did this.
Sarah Proud and Tall
@Alex S.:
Some people appear to think that drawing international attention to human rights abuses is a good thing.
Alex S.
@Sarah Proud and Tall:
Here’s what will happen next:
Rihilism
@Sarah Proud and Tall: I don’t agree with KC because I don’t think there really is a “good” strategy. It’s not as if Choi’s absence would guarantee that the Russian government would back off of the oppression. They’d just substitute another rational for marginalizing the gay community…
Sarah Proud and Tall
@Rihilism:
I think you are right. If I was writing the post again, I’d probably not focus on Choi, but on the parade and other arrests. That’s what I get for posting too quickly.
henqiguai
@Rihilism (#13):
Along the lines of ‘OMG ! A society acting in a manner consistent with its normal behavior !’ And then the expectation that one activist being treated in a typical manner in another country is something that should be raised to the level of demanding diplomatic intervention seems a bit over the top. Kind’a like bible-bangers being outraged at being arrested for proselytizing in Saudi Arabia.
Got no problem with the effort, but campaigning for gay rights in Russia, when your claim to fame is equal treatment in the US military, seems a bit off-topic.” The level of outrage implied in the Americablog article just seems misplaced.
henqiguai
@henqiguai: @Rihilism (#13):
Your “How so”; I tried to respond but some inadvertently dropped html tags were in danger of trashing comments so I requested delete. But subsequent comments more or less gave my position, to whit, it’s Russia, it’s their society and why is there such outrage when Choi’s issue was supposedly equal treatment in the US military.
Anya
@Sarah Proud and Tall: Sometimes, active interference from foreigners in such movements are detrimental to that movement. It’s always easy to stir people against interfering Americans and to paint a movement as driven by foreigners who are trying to destroy the cultural values of their nation. Pressure from organizations like Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and gay rights movements around the globe should put pressure on Russia, but I am not sure if a grandstanding publicity seeker like Dan Choi is a good thing for the gay rights movement in Russia,
KCinDC
While I tend to agree with Anya, I’m puzzled by henqiguai’s apparent belief that Americans should ignore human rights abuses anywhere outside the United States and that it’s not possible for someone to have more than one issue (especially when the two issues are closely related).
Rihilism
@Alex S.:
You don’t know that. Nobody does. Major cultural changes can often the result from seemingly inconsequential battles. Think Stonewall. Furthermore, the desire for instantaneous results is not typically the driving force behind those seeking social justice…
henqiguai
@Sarah Proud and Tall (#24):
Great ! So wouldn’t those issues to which you linked in your response #19 be much more critical and stirring ? Maybe it’s just my personal level of apathy, but I’m much more likely to get interested in responding to international incidents wherein loss of life or such outrages as the ‘rape cure’ for lesbianism are being perpetrated, rather than a small group of protesters were abused by the local authorities (we got real issues with apparently innocent people being killed by the police in this country, why should I get outraged at normal and apparently legal behaviors in Russia ?).
henqiguai
@KCinDC (#31):
No clumpin’ clue what you’re talking about. Perhaps I should have emphasized that Choi’s notoriety is primarily for LGBT equity in the US military and that the outrage of his fairly typical treatment by Russian police for his LGBT activism in Russia seems excessive. If it happened in the US, then hell yes! there needs to be outraged response; Russia, not so much. You want outraged activism targeted at LGBT abuse in other countries, see the examples at comment #19 (but I haven’t come across any such at this point).
Alex S.
@Rihilism:
Then let the Russians do it. Or do you think that Choi’s actions would lead to such activism among American liberals that it puts pressure on Obama to demand that Medvedev/Putin grant more civil liberties or else…. It is silly. Instead, we need Russia’s energy, Medvedev and Putin wouldn’t listen anyway, Choi is completely overestimating his own importance and the russian society is not getting more liberal. But to be honest, I also think that Choi is a grandstanding publicity seeker who wants to retain his celebrity status among liberal bloggers even though his original cause has already been accomplished. He said he’d re-enlist if DADT is repealed, but he hasn’t done it.
Well, anyway, I think the problem here is the general suppression of free speech in Russia, not homosexuality.
Joel
@henqiguai: just cause other countries have problems doesn’t mean that you overlook abuses where they happen, be they in russia, china, or the united states. and it doesn’t matter who’s leading the charge, dan choi or whoever.
Anya
@KCinDC: We can do a lot from here, like petitions and organizing boycotts, as well as putting pressure on our government to address the issue of human rights in Russia and elsewhere.
I also think we should highlight and publicize the link between anti-gay movement in Africa, particularly Uganda and the far-right evangelical movement here in the United States. We can do so much from here, without diluting an organic movement and making it all about one of our heroes.
KCinDC
@henqiguai, I was reacting to your “it’s Russia, it’s their society and why is there such outrage when Choi’s issue was supposedly equal treatment in the US military”. I see now that I misinterpreted the last part, so I apologize for that, but I’m still hoping you can explain how “it’s their society” can be interpreted as something other than a statement that Americans should ignore human rights abuses by other countries.
Rihilism
@Sarah Proud and Tall: I think your post is just fine.
Apparently, Choi’s presence in this parade is detrimental to the gay rights movement in Russia which was going along swimmingly until Mr Choi showed up. The fact that his presence and subsequent arrest brought attention to an event that probably would have been ignored is clear evidence of his attention seeking proclivities. Mr Choi would be better served by adhering to the only gay rights issue he is familiar with, namely DADT, and Mr Choi should avoid all other gay rights issues that fall outside his area of expertise. Furthermore, since Mr Choi is unable to guarantee immediate results, he should recuse himself from any further fruitless agitating activities.
Having I summed things up to everyone’s satisfaction?
You are far too generous…
Rihilism
@Alex S.: It’s nice to have opinions…
Rihilism
Oh yes, I forgot to mention, Mr. Choi should put up or shut up. The fact that he is still legally prohibited from re-enlisting until the review/training process is complete and openly gay citizens are allowed to serve is a pathetic, piss-poor excuse.
Dear God, had I known I’d be spending the morning arguing with Homer Simpson I’d have stayed in bed…
Rihilism
In fact, I am rather exhausted by this constructive exchange of ideas, so I think I will take a nap. Bye for now…
spartacus
@Rihilism:
Umm, Dan Choi most certainly has re-enlisted.
“Don’t ask, don’t tell” no longer enforced, Dan Choi reenlists
Joey Maloney
If y’all feel that way, I think it’s incumbent on you not to hide your light under the relative bushel of BJ. I think you should hop the next plane to HNL so that you can be there when Dan Choi gets home and tell him to his face which issues he’s allowed to be involved in and when he should butt out.
What could possibly go wrong? Honolulu’s Queens Hospital has an excellent trauma center.
Cassidy
I’m not a big fan of the guy myself. I have some issues with military people deliberately coming out instead of being patient and continuing to serve their country. But, let’s give the guy some credit. He’s put his money where his mouth is and is apparently broadening his scope. That’s activism to be encouraged.
spartacus
“grandstanding publicity seeker”
Good lord, what would you all have called the freedom rides, a tasteless publicity stunt?
It seems that you don’t have the first clue about what protests involve. It’s ALL ABOUT grandstanding and seeking publicity.
And, if I’m not mistaken, the protests have actually led to at least the beginning of the repeal of DADT. So not only has it been grandstanding-publicity-seeking, it’s been successful grandstanding-publicity-seeking!
I guess there’s just not enough of that DC senatorial-aspiring comity in it for you BJ’ers. Mercy.
Barb (formerly Gex)
@Linda Featheringill: I believe they applied. But only the anti-gay side was granted a permit.
henqiguai
@spartacus (#46):
Irrelevant, as, to the best of my knowledge, Russia has never had a DADT policy for its military.
Barb (formerly Gex)
Thank you all for this commentary. Gay people need to be told how important gay issues are, where they stand in the priority list, and what activities they should participate in by straight people. Hopefully Choi gets the memo.
Tim, Interrupted
Thanks for posting this, SPT.
Choi is kind of awesome in my book.
It is important to remember that there are LOTS and LOTS of places in the U.S. where the same scene shown in that photo could easily take place.
But I am thankful there is at least a tattered veneer of legal constraint here to keep most of the gay hate under the raydar a good bit of the time. But as you know…it is definitely THERE.
BTW, you might find this amusing: I was accosted by a very angry, apparent Lesbian yesterday at a neighborhood greenhouse/nursery. I mean, this woman was frothing at the mouth from the get go. Seems I had picked up HER cardboard box flat and was using it to put my little selections in while shopping. Nevermind that when I picked up said box there was no one in sight to claim it as theirs. When I inquired as to where on the box her name was located, things got ugly quick. An angry butch Lesbian in high dudgeon can be a very intimidating thing, but I bravely stood my ground.
When she began to rage, loudly using words such as “fucking” and “goddam,” etc., I advised her to go home and take her meds, which didn’t go over well either.
Her apparent partner was restraining her in a way that suggests she suffers thru such scenes on frequent occasion, otherwise not sure what might have gone down. But I’m lean and spry and my assailant short and fire pluggish, so I’m certain I could have outrun her. :D
This all took place at Noonish at Brookline, Massachusett’s own Allendale Farms, so the many shoppers around us kept their noses firmly in the air and pretended not to notice anything was amiss, which was nice. :D
Any advice you might have on my etiquette in this situation will be welcome.
henqiguai
@Barb (formerly Gex) (#49):
Well, sure, if there’s going to be strident calls for “straight people” to get all busy and involved in said issues. Could it be that calls for actions against the killing and abuse of LGBT people in countries that are more susceptible to public and diplomatic pressure are viewed as the preferred tactical approach ? Most of the commentary seemed to be opinions on the tactical choice of Russia versus more immediate or dire targets; the primary charges of Choi’s actions being inappropriate seem to be coming from his uncritical supporters not bothering to engage in the actual comments being offered.
Allan
@Tim, Interrupted: Thanks for perpetuating the meme that gay men hate women, even gay ones.
To everyone else, Tim’s seething misogyny should not be held against all the other gay people in the world. He’s special.
Allan
OK, that thread derailment addressed, back to the topic.
Choi enjoys being a lightning rod. I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that he and the Russian activists presumed that their appearance would be disrupted, they would likely be arrested, and that all of this would draw attention to the sorry state of LGBT equality in Russia. It appears to have worked.
I suspect those who have problems with the online petitions, as I do, are reacting to the idea that they are directed not at the Russian government, but instead at Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, demanding that she speak out and/or take some action in response to the predictable result of Choi’s deliberate civil disobedience.
Online petitions are the most useless kind of armchair “activism” that give the signatory a self-righteous glow without actually changing anything. And this one’s focus on symbolic targets rather than the actual locus of the discrimination only adds an additional layer of “so what?” to what is already a masturbatory exercise in faux participation. And it adds your name and contact information to another list which will bombard your email in-box forever with URGENT requests for you to sign the latest online petition directed at a symbolic target for something outside of that person’s authority.
I spoke to Choi once, and came away with the impression that his heart is in the right place, but his mind is not focused on the big picture. His life is in a constant state of turmoil, and it shows in the way he bounces from cause to cause.
Jay
Dan Choi’s said some unkind things about the President, so we’re all supposed to hate Choi.
That’s really all there is to it.
Personally, I don’t see why one can’t admire both Choi and Obama. Both men are even-tempered leaders who understand the importance of organizing.
Good on them.
Tim, Interrupted
@Allan:
Ah Allan the Hall Monitor is in his place! Yay.
Man, you are an arrogant, intentionally oblivious ass.
Please explain how the fact that the person who accosted me yesterday was a WOMAN in any way reflects on ALL women, or on ALL gay women, or on ALL women who wear pale blue Hawaiian shirts (since that is what my special friend was wearing yesterday) other than in your own mind, full of its own twisted and suppressed bigotries?
Just like Celtic Whatever yesterday, who made the leap from me calling Andrew Sullivan a hypocritical, lying, barebacking, fanboy toad to an assumption that I believe ALL gay men to be just like Andrew Sullivan, you and your knee jerk, simpleton thinking process are really lazy and lame. You project your OWN feelings about ALL gay women onto me, so uh…fuck off.
You need to own and deal with that.
Tim, Interrupted
@Allan:
Wow. You really are a pompous, know it all, ass.
Maybe you should contact Choi again, and take a moment away from psychoanalyzing him to suggest that he take your route and sleep with a well known, already established gay activist as a route to meaningful and results oriented political engagement.
Maybe you could even suggest the right Daddy. You must have a Rolodex full of them, Allan.
Hugs.
Allan
@Tim, Interrupted: Hmm, you appear to be pyschoanalyzing me based on my history of comments at BJ. I have no problem with you doing so, per se, I just find it amusing and ironic in light of your objections to me subjecting you to similar scrutiny.
Tim, Interrupted
@Allan: @Allan:
Where to start? Reviewing some of your past ACTIONS, is um, not psychoanalyzing. It’s observing.
Secondly, I objected to you psychoanalyzing Choi, not me.
I think your projection reflexes may be overtaking your reading comprehension. Slow down…
…oh and you have not responded to why you attributed all your assumptions surrounding my Allendale Farms assailant to ME rather than to yourself, seeing as how they are nowhere in evidence in what I wrote.
You’re so cute in your little make believe world.
Allan
@Tim, Interrupted: Big sigh.
Very well, since you pretended in your initial post to want the advice of others about your unpleasant encounter among the seedlings, here you go. Your post in plain text, my observations inserted in block quotes.
——
I was accosted by a very angry, apparent Lesbian yesterday at a neighborhood greenhouse/nursery.
I mean, this woman was frothing at the mouth from the get go. Seems I had picked up HER cardboard box flat and was using it to put my little selections in while shopping. Nevermind that when I picked up said box there was no one in sight to claim it as theirs. When I inquired as to where on the box her name was located, things got ugly quick.
An angry butch Lesbian in high dudgeon can be a very intimidating thing, but I bravely stood my ground.
When she began to rage, loudly using words such as “fucking” and “goddam,” etc., I advised her to go home and take her meds, which didn’t go over well either.
Her apparent partner was restraining her in a way that suggests she suffers thru such scenes on frequent occasion, otherwise not sure what might have gone down. But I’m lean and spry and my assailant short and fire pluggish, so I’m certain I could have outrun her. :D
This all took place at Noonish at Brookline, Massachusett’s own Allendale Farms, so the many shoppers around us kept their noses firmly in the air and pretended not to notice anything was amiss, which was nice. :D
Any advice you might have on my etiquette in this situation will be welcome.
KCinDC
Are we entirely sure that comment 50 wasn’t written by BOB?
boss bitch
“*sucks teeth*” Dan Choi is an attention whore. The left seems to have a problem differentiating between a real activist and an attention whore. Stop looking for the next Harvey Milk and open your eyes. Lots of people out there busting their asses for gay rights, Dan Choi does not strike me as one because he does things that don’t do a damn thing for the movement.
How about inviting a few hundred Russians to a large gay pride parade in the US? Have that group march together in the parade. They can display their message for a longer period of time where more people can see it. A parade that’s legal and covered by the media – well some media.
And FFS, don’t compare Dan Choi to the Freedom Riders and no, my disapproval of him is not because he said something mean about the president. Although I will not forget the tasteless and fucking sexist shit he said to Harry Reid. Yelling about your rights while demeaning another minority group? And the fact that he was at CPAC? yeah, no red alerts going off there.
Rihilism
@spartacus: I wasn’t implying that Choi hadn’t tried to re-enlist. He has tried. I was simply noting that he is still temporarily prohibited from doing so and that claiming that he hasn’t tried is absurd…
Jay
@boss bitch:
“And the fact that he was at CPAC?”
It’s pretty clear to me that Choi won few or no fans at CPAC, and was there to show that’d be the case. The guy had a good laugh when David Frum tried to recruit him into the GOP ranks.
“I will not forget the tasteless and fucking sexist shit he said to Harry Reid.”
And Reid gets a pass because why? The man is as pro-life as one can get, and one would be foolish if one didn’t see that as at least something of a bow to the deeply sexist Mormon hierarchy. When the Senate Majority Leader winks and nods at institutionalized misogyny, I think that’s a bit more problematic than a single rant from an unelected ex military officer.
DADT hurt men and women, gay and straight. Since Choi played a big role in ending that, I would not call him anti-woman.
(edited)
henqiguai
@Jay (#63):
Should just leave this alone; the thread’s dead anyway. But, really ? I thought it was astute political calculation and maneuvering by politicians, Democratic, led by that do-nothing throw-the-gays and the rest of the base under the bus President; you know, Obama. Aside from doing what a number of other gay service men and women did, come out or be outed and leave the service, what did he do ? Coming out and being mouthy doesn’t count for “…played a big role”.
Jenny
Don’t be so hard on the Russians, they’re only defending the sanctity of marriage.
Jenny
@Jay:
yet he votes against anti-choice judges and votes for pro choice judges.
Jay
@henqiguai:
“led by that do-nothing throw-the-gays and the rest of the base under the bus President; you know, Obama”
I said upthread that I am a fan of both Choi and POTUS. Really, this kind of crap does nothing to convince me that you aren’t just ticked at Choi because he has associated with Jane Hamsher and that crowd. You sound just like Hillary when she attempted, during the Dem primaries, to give all the credit to LBJ for the Civil Rights Act, as though grassroots organizing by non-politicians played no role at all. Further, an endorsement of Choi is not an endorsement of Hamsher. Sooner or later, I’m sure Choi will find out she is only in it for herself.
“Aside from doing what a number of other gay service men and women did, come out or be outed and leave the service, what did he do? Coming out and being mouthy doesn’t count…”
That’s an especially classy touch, “being mouthy.” Perhaps the uppity fag should’ve kept his mouth shut? The fact is that, while alot of gay Americans were and are forced out of the service, not all of them have been as “mouthy” as a Leonard Matlovich or a Choi or, now, Katie Miller. I don’t blame those not blessed with “mouthiness,” but it matters. Speeches have to be made. Sometimes, you have to take on your brass and your President. You have to be willing to get arrested, &c.
Tim, Interrupted
@Allan:
Hey Allan, thanks for all the time you put into whatever you wrote about etiquette, but my comment soliciting same was a direct response to Sarah Proud and Tall, whose post was you know, the reason for the thread. She seems to have the years, breeding, and experience behind her to tackle a dicey situation like the Allendale Farms unpleasantness. Plus, she has a sense of humor, an area in which you are barren, dry, and grinless.
Your recommendations on etiquette don’t interest me, thanks anyway.
eemom
@Allan:
bravo, Allan.
I had a similar reaction, but wasn’t about to go to the trouble of spelling it out for lil Timmeh. It’s over his head.
Allan
@Tim, Interrupted: Then you probably should not have asked me to comment on your anecdote, as you did here:
Jenny
@Jay: I agree and disagree.
POTUS and gay rights groups BOTH deserve distinction. But I still don’t know Choi played a “big role”. And I say this without prejudice to any of Choi’s associations. I just don’t see how getting arrested and returning his ring influenced any votes. Certainly those acts pale to the actions of gays and groups working this issue since the 60s.
henqiguai
@Jay (#67):
Lad, you got a tin ear and no sense of history; or proportion. And surely such an over-the-top string as “led by that do-nothing throw-the-gays and the rest of the base under the bus President; you know, Obama” should suggest some fairly strong, and dismissive, sarcasm. Or am I really that far off-base ?
Hamsher ? Don’t do FireDogLake; after an initial visit some time back found it to be content free. And my voice is entirely too rough to sound like Hillary Clinton. Also, where the snot did this come from – “Further, an endorsement of Choi is not an endorsement of Hamsher.”?
And yeah, mouthy. ‘Cause beyond the completely Pyrrhic victory of some self-righteous glow what did his mouthing off accomplish ? He gave up his military career and a ring. No minds were changed, no agenda was advanced; all the players already had hard positions. But what the hell, you don’t like “mouthy”, how about being pointlessly dramatic and probably not helpful to the issue at hand.
Jay
@Jenny-
“I just don’t see how getting arrested and returning his ring influenced any votes.”
This sort of civil disobedience clearly influences the types of people who care enough to make phone calls to senate offices and, you know, get into arguments on threads like this one. Senators probably don’t respond to blog threads, but they definitely respond to gluts of phone calls.
And I think POTUS deserves credit for being a consensus-builder on this. He clearly learned the lesson of the Clinton years, which is that a C-in-C with no military experience cannot just jump into something like this. What I mean is that it is important Pres. Obama began by comissioning a study on how to end the policy.
@henqiguai-“(W)hat did his mouthing off accomplish ? He gave up his military career and a ring. No minds were changed, no agenda was advanced; all the players already had hard positions.”
Scott Brown didn’t go into the hearings with a “hard position.” I expected Richard Burr, a Republican from the same state that gave us Jesse-freaking-Helms, to vote “no,” but he did the opposite. No one can conclusively prove that Choi’s actions (or, for that matter, those of someone like the decorated Marine and DADT opponent Eric Alva) influenced these two men, and the senators wouldn’t cop to such a thing, but it wouldn’t shock me (in his statement, Burr talked about a “generational shift,” which tells me Burr recognizes the power of young-ish military types within the institution itself).
You accused me of lacking a sense of history, yet it was you who failed to acknowledge that “mouthy” gay Americans have served in the military and, by challenging the institution with their “mouthiness,” at the very least sent a message that gay servicepeople would not go away.
Dan Choi didn’t come out of nowhere, and just as the repeal of DADT is President Obama’s victory, it is also Choi’s, as it is Katie Miller’s, Leonard Matlovich’s, and so on.
Tim, Interrupted
@Allan:
Allan, really, work on comprehension. I asked you why you attributed your own projections to ME, rather than to yourself. I did NOT ask for your input on etiquette, you moran; that was a tongue in cheek outreach to SP&T and I thought her recommendations would be amusing, as she often is.
It is amazing how seriously you take yourself.
Now…as to your play by play etiquette nonsense, I might take it just the slightest bit in earnest if you and your BFF in hatefulness and spite, eemom, EVER missed a chance to escalate, or should I more accurately degrade, a thread discussion with your quick recourse to personal insults. You two are among the worst with the name calling and misdirected rage.
In short, you lack standing.
So until you learn to practice with deeds what you attempted to preach above, you can take that self-righteous, totally unself-aware sermon and shove it.
Allan
BTW, Dan Choi has officially jumped the shark.
Allan
Oops, it appears that Choi has already deleted the tweet in which he called David Axelrod a “dumb fuck”.
Allan
@Tim, Interrupted: Now that I’ve discussed the topic of the thread, I’ll deal with you.
On the internets, if you post something as a comment to an open-access website, other readers are likely to respond to that comment, whether or not you were interested in the feedback of anyone other than the FPer who created the post.
And when they do, you have choices in how to respond. The choices you make will be interpreted by readers as revealing of your character, intelligence, and mental health.
You have made a series of choices, and others have drawn conclusions about you as a result.
I’m glad I was able to clear this up for you.
Now go forward, making choices and revealing the content of your character.
Allan
OK, Choi has reposted a tweet without the “dumb fuck”.
So I responded.
Tim, Interrupted
@Allan:
Wow. Allan, you are breathtakingly self-regarding and pompous.
Choi is wise to have ignored your pleas to manage his messaging.
He is also on target about Obama: NOT to be trusted regarding gay rights or much of anything else he claims to support.
Are you currently banging someone on Obama’s gay issues outreach team?
Allan
@Tim, Interrupted: Oh, I’m sorry. I didn’t realize this box was already taken. Here you are, I’ll go get another. Enjoy your shopping!