I don’t like it when the Villagers say “Medicare” “Mediscare” but Ruth Marcus, David Von Drehle, and the rest are more than welcome to use the term “Voucherscare”. They’re going to have to get creative to keep whining about this for the next 17 months, because it’s going to be an issue in races at every level. Here’s Wisconsin Democratic Party chair Paul Tate on what it’s in store for the Wisconsin Republican reacallees:
“We’ve got them on camera with Paul Ryan. We’ve got them on the record saying they support the Ryan agenda. And I think it’s something that voters are going to weigh in on. I think the list of Republicans who are going to lose their seat because of Paul Ryan’s Medicare plan is not just going to be starting at the federal level.”
Isn’t it sad that Republicans can’t collude with Villagers to try to strip Americans of access to health care without paying a heavy political price? Isn’t it sad that they can’t use a short-term fiscal issue, brought own by their own policies, to eviscerate a wildly popular, wildly successful social program that has nothing to do with the current recession?
ruemara
um, no.
this has been today’s edition of SATSQ, hand them an anchor series.
Rick Massimo
Don’t be silly. They only take Republicans’ made-up names for things. After all, making up new names for things is all the GOP ever does.
arguingwithsignposts
You mean “mediScare”?
burnspbesq
“wildly successful?”
Pretty much every other major industrialized country spends less (both per capita and as a percentage of GDP) and gets better outcomes. If that’s a wild success, I’d hate to see your idea of a Charlie Foxtrot.
Still, it does seem clear that the Republicans have given the third rail a big, fat, sloppy wet kiss. One hopes they will pay the price. However, Americans in general, and low-information voters in particular, have notoriously short memories.
cat48
I fear Joe’s hostage negotiation group for the Debt Ceiling will be forced into Medicare cut compromise by Bitch McConnell. He’s not stupid enough to go into 2012 Elections w/VoucherScare hanging over his head.
Bitch McConnell & Obama are currently engaged in a stare down/standoff over Trade deal agreements & it has been going on months. I see a global financial meltdown that Bitch/Obama will cause.
Jeffro
It will work, trickle down, etc, but only in places where the Dem candidate X (federal, state, local) has the guts to lay this nonsense squarely in Ryan/Rep candidate Y’s laps. Otherwise it’s just another wasted Dem opportunity.
J. Michael Neal
@burnspbesq: I think he means Medicare is a wildly successful program, which it is. It’s costs are much lower than American medical care in general.
Sigh. I guess I’m commenting again.
Steve
@burnspbesq: Other countries spend less and get better outcomes on health care in general. Are you saying other countries also spend less and get better outcomes for SENIORS than we do with Medicare?
I’ve never seen it broken down this way, because other countries don’t limit their government health care programs to seniors only, but Medicare certainly does better than our private health-care system by any number of metrics, including keeping costs down. So even if the only thing you can say for Medicare is that it achieves better results than the rest of our health-care system, I’d still say wildly successful is a fair description.
jwb
@burnspbesq: It’s not the low information voter I worry about actually. I worry most about those who have the TV on all day—no matter what channel.
Calming Influence
Embrace “Obamacare”, but extend it: Medicare should be called “LBJ-care”. Social Security should be called “FDR-security”. And thanks to the 40-hour work-week, weekends should be called “Union-ends”.
That last one needs some work.
Kristine
@ruemara: Yup. “They gonna drown, put a hose in their mouth.”
gnomedad
Democrats are trying to scare people by repeating what Republicans say.
Mike Kay (True Grit)
O.T.
Paul Revere is the new litmus test.
Santorum was asked if Palin’s version of history is correct and he refused to answer.
I love this. We got to get all of them, especially Mittens, whether Paul Revere rang bells while warning the British.
alwhite
@jwb:
How is that not low information? TV has not been the source of any actual information for a very long time.
The people above are exactly right in their response to burnspbesq – Medicare has consistently been cheaper and gets better results than the private insurance sector in the US. You can’t compare it to the health care in other countries because the situation is not comparable. If you looked at the costs in Europe for only those over 65 you would see they were more expensive than the the average for the same country.
Yutsano
@gnomedad: How uncivil and lacking of bipartisanship. Broder would have been appalled.
J. Michael Neal
@Kristine: “Or my name’s not Kroc, that’s Kroc with a ‘K.'”
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@gnomedad: @Yutsano: truth is at once funnier and sadder than fiction, x2.
Reporters were scolding the White House today for using the word vouchers when they know perfectly well dear Mr Ryan doesn’t like it.
kdaug
@Steve:
That’s a calculus I hadn’t thought of before. Medicare is per-capita cheaper than private insurance – but Medicare by law self-selects for just the oldest/sickest patients.
Actuarialy, that would seem to suggest that allowing “Medicare For All”(tm) – ie, allow younger, healthier, less expensive people into the pool – then Medicare would be significantly less expensive than the for-profit model.
gnomedad
@Mike Kay (True Grit):
This sound promising. I’m thinking we should all contribute to Palin’s tour. If we can get her to babble about enough topics, they won’t be able to talk about anything.
jibeaux
@J. Michael Neal:
I welcome you back. Your Mark Knopfler reference more than compensates for the inappropriate apostrophe in “its.” I’m hopelessly pedantic, but I love a mournful guitar, deep voice, and lyrics about Imelda Marcos and Ray Kroc.
SteveinSC
The gentle weeping of the Villagers, the clouds of spittle spewing from Tweety are soft sounds to lull you into a sound and contented night’s sleep.
jibeaux
Hell, I don’t think my dad’s ever voted for a Democrat above the local level in his life and I’m going to work on him the best I can about this crap. He’s 63 and pays out the nose for a private plan, which just told him he had to wait for preauthorization of a heart rate monitor, even though the heart procedure has already been done. I told him if he were on Medicare yet, he’d probably have the damn monitor and he agreed. Between that and the local education cuts, which he found pretty unnecessary (hooray! going from 46th in the nation to 49th!), I think I stand a chance.
J. Michael Neal
@jibeaux: Thank Kristine. She started it. Great song off of a great album, though. “Don’t Crash the Ambulance” seems awfully appropriate these days.
J. Michael Neal
OT: I’m in love with Harry. I put in an application to adopt him today.
mr. whipple
The whole idea of medicare was to insure those that couldn’t afford insurance in old age, which was pretty much everyone. And we’ll go back to that if the GOP has its way, because even with the underfunded vouchers insurance companies won’t cover shit.
The GOP wants your parents to die. It’s that simple.
Kristine
@J. Michael Neal: “Oh I’m just wild about Harry/and Harry’s wild about me…”
That song’s a little older.
Yea for you and Harry! He’s a cutie bug.
jl
I have no idea what Wobbly Harlan Doug J Hill meant by saying that Medicare is ‘wildly successful’. Whatever he meant, I think that it is true that Medicare is ‘wildly successful’ in the context of the dysfunctional US health care market.
In terms of other countries, it is not so successful in terms of average mortality rates (which is what life expectancy measures).
Look at the ranking of countries in the OECD health statistics data base by life expectancy at age 65 for women and men, shown below.
Medicare is wildly successful in the following way: the rank of US in terms of life expectancy at age 65 is 24th (women) and 17th (men). At birth, the ranking of the US is 27th (women) and 26th (men).
So the US health care system produces better outcomes for people at 65 than at birth, relative to other countries.
But, anyway, the idea that more regulated health care system would save costs by killing grandma is a Big Lie, if anything is. At least it is if the US tries out any of several types of systems that produce better outcomes at lower cost (from mostly private, like Switzerland, to national health, like UK)
Also note that experts think they know why some high income European countries have worse outcomes than the US for elderly (Netherlands, Denmark, Portugal): too much middle age smoking.
Life Expectancy at age 65, women
years rank country
23.2 1 Japan
22.0 2 France
21.8 3 Switzerland
21.3 4 Spain
21.3 5 Italy
21.4 6 Australia
21.0 7 Finland
20.9 8 Canada
20.6 9 Sweden
20.3 10 Austria
20.2 10 Belgium
20.7 12 Iceland
20.5 12 New Zealand
20.6 12 Norway
20.1 15 Germany
20.2 16 Israel
19.9 17 Ireland
20.4 17 Luxembourg
19.4 19 Portugal
19.9 20 Korea
20.0 20 Netherlands
19.9 20 Slovenia
19.6 20 United Kingdom
19.5 24 United States
19.4 25 Greece
19.1 26 Denmark
18.6 27 Poland
17.7 28 Czech Republic
18.1 29 Estonia
18.2 29 Mexico
16.9 31 Hungary
16.9 32 Slovak Republic
15.6 33 Turkey
Life Expectancy at age 65, men
LE rank country
18.1 1 Japan
18.1 1 Switzerland
18.1 3 Australia
18.0 3 Iceland
18.0 3 Israel
17.7 6 France
17.7 6 New Zealand
17.6 8 Canada
17.4 8 Italy
17.3 8 Spain
17.4 11 Sweden
17.1 12 Norway
17.2 13 Greece
17.0 13 United Kingdom
17.0 15 Austria
16.9 16 Germany
16.6 17 Belgium
16.7 17 Luxembourg
16.8 17 United States
16.8 20 Finland
16.8 21 Ireland
16.8 21 Mexico
16.4 23 Netherlands
16.1 24 Portugal
16.1 25 Denmark
15.8 26 Korea
15.5 26 Slovenia
14.4 28 Czech Republic
14.4 29 Poland
13.9 30 Turkey
13.1 31 Hungary
13.2 32 Slovak Republic
13.1 33 Estonia
Source: OECD Health Statistics
http://www.oecd.org/document/30/0,3343,en_2649_34631_12968734_1_1_1_37407,00.html
Linda Featheringill
@J. Michael Neal:
Harry is so sweet!
Do let us know how that works out.
Purr, purr.
jl
My commment with the list of countries is in moderation. Below is the text, which I will search for naughty words, like w * * n * r, before I repost:
I have no idea what Wobbly Harlan Doug J Hill meant by saying that Medicare is ‘wildly successful’. Whatever he meant, I think that it is true that Medicare is ‘wildly successful’ in the context of the dysfunctional US health care market.
In terms of other countries, it is not so successful in terms of average mortality rates (which is what life expectancy measures).
Look at the ranking of countries in the OECD health statistics data base by life expectancy at age 65 for women and men, shown below.
Medicare is wildly successful in the following way: the rank of US in terms of life expectancy at age 65 is 24th (women) and 17th (men). At birth, the ranking of the US is 27th (women) and 26th (men).
So the US health care system produces better outcomes for people at 65 than at birth, relative to other countries.
But, anyway, the idea that more regulated health care system would save costs by killing grandma is a Big Lie, if anything is. At least it is if the US tries out any of several types of systems that produce better outcomes at lower cost (from mostly private, like Switzerland, to national health, like UK)
Also note that experts think they know why some high income European countries have worse outcomes than the US for elderly (Netherlands, Denmark, Portugal): too much middle age smoking.
Linda Featheringill
@jibeaux:
The next time you see him, find out how much he pays for health insurance, okay?
I have asked for a quote for private insurance for someone like me. The guy said he would email me the figures in a day or so.
Then we can have some real figures to work from.
kideni
“Wisconsin Democratic Party chair Paul Tate”: it should be Mike Tate (it’s not Doug’s fault, since Political Wire got it wrong).
Linda Featheringill
@jl:
Are you accusing Dougie of being a Wobbly? Oh, my.
“Pie in the sky, by and by.”
:-)
MattR
@jl: But that analysis ignores the fact that life expectancy after age 65 is related to the quality of health care available before age 65.
Anne Laurie
@J. Michael Neal: Awww, Harry is a cutie! Send his foster-people a copy of the memoriam you wrote on Eddie — that should establish that you are exactly the kind of adopter lonely kitties dream about…
flounder
Thanks for this Doug.
I was just thinking this morning that “Ryancare” is a stupid name, and that “Vouchercare” or “Couponcare” is so much cooler.
I like Vouchercare because the word “Voucher” makes the wingnuts flip in that special “privatization” sort of way that gives little Lukey Russert something to do like pulling up all the times Orin Hatch used the term.
jl
@MattR:
Yes it does ignore the issue of the shape of the people coming into Medicare at 65. But please explain in more detail how that affects my argument.
Are you saying that we should give Medicare more credit for producing slightly better outcomes for the elderly, relative to other countries, that the US health care system and Medicare combined over the whole life span, because most US people are wrecks at age 65?
Or that Medicare should get less because the elderly who can survive the US health care system are pretty tough customers?
I simply provided some context for how well Medicare performs, relative to the non Medicare part of the system, and to other countries.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@flounder:
Heh. Isn’t voucher the preferred term to describe the scheme for getting gubmint money to schools that have history books with illustrations of saddled dinosaurs?
jl
@jl:
Dammital. There were spaces in the damn comment window. What happened to them after I posted the comment? FYWP.
First three digits are life expectancies, rounded to one tenth of a year.
Fourth and fifth digits are the country rank.
Then the country name.
flounder
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Great point. That will probably change this week, and all the Village Baggers will be throwing out the “tuition support” and whatnot.
jl
@Linda Featheringill: Merely revealing meaning of the codewords that commie Doug J’s uses.
Jeffro
@flounder: They are running away from vouchers in education; make them do it in medical care for the same reason – you can’t take a small government voucher to the private market and expect to even get you in the door, much less get decent coverage (and everyone knows it).
Vouchercare! x a gazillion
MattR
@jl: I don’t think we can draw any conclusions from those numbers and therefore I don’t think they really add much context.
Wag
I like the term Vouchercare because when I just glance at it it looks like Voldemort, and thereby reminds menof the inherent underlying evil of the GOP
jl
@MattR: Ok, thanks very much. You gave a comment, and now a conclusion. Do you have any reasons for what you say?
J. Michael Neal
@Anne Laurie: That must be about what Eddie looked like as a kitten, when he still had all of his body parts.
I think Monster really needs to be terrorized by a kitten.
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
@J. Michael Neal: “Like crocodile, but not spelled that way.”
El Cid
What’s even more unfair is that today’s blogosphere types will not hesitate to use things like old newspaper articles, or books, or recorded audio, or recorded video, any sort of thing from the ‘past’, in order to get in the way of good, honest conservatives who just wish to help America by making anything up and expecting people like us big time journalists and commentators to let them do it.
What sort of a country have we become when things in the past — whether several seconds ago, or even years — get brought back up again just to make Republicans look bad when they say they’ve never said this or that, and they actually did?
jwb
@alwhite: Low information voters are defined as those who don’t pay attention to politics not those who are misinformed by our media. What I’m saying is that low information voters are in a much better position to make a good decision than are misinformed voters.
JCT
All sorts of possibilities with VoucherCare and it fits on a bumpersticker.
I am still in some disbelief over how the Republicans have played this. Did they honestly think they could sneak a complete restructuring of Medicare into an inherently crippled and underfunded voucher scheme past everyone? And this doubling down is crazed.
I guess they just assumed no one would call them on it (although the media still gives them a pass overall) and the Dems would be caught napping.
They are squealing like a pig with its tail in the gate — they were so used to being successful at convincing everyone that up was down and right was left… Hubris FTW. Couldn’t have happened to a bigger group of assholes.
@J.Micheal Neal — Harry’s a beaut. Good luck!
jwb
@mr. whipple: No, everybody knows that it’s the Democrats who are ordering the death panels to kill your parents; we have to keep our fiction straight here. And you are shrill. Too. Also.
MattR
@jl: I gave my reason in my first comment. The life expectancy of people who reach 65 is related to the quality of care they receive before 65. So you can’t simply look at the ranking of countries by life expectancy and draw any solid conclusions about the quality of their health care for those over 65. I do not think your numbers refute the claim that Medicare is “wildly successful”, nor do I think that they support it.
Steve
@jl: I feel like there are a lot more factors that go into life expectancy than the quality of the health care system. When reputable studies measure outcomes in various health care systems, do they look at life expectancy as a measure?
jacy
@J. Michael Neal:
Harry looks adorable. And welcome back.
Mike in NC
Fucking Villagers, how do they work?
mr. whipple
@jwb:
Actually I was inaccurate. The GOP wants to give old folks a 6k voucher to pay towards premiums that will be many multiples of the voucher.
So it’s more accurate to say, ‘the gop wants to give away taxpayer money to insurance companies to fuck you by denying care and/or forcing you or your children into bankruptcy. Then they want you to die.’
Doug Harlan J
@jl:
Yes, that is what I meant. I realize it is a failure by many other metrics, but that metric seems the most appropriate one.
jwb
@mr. whipple: And now you’ve gone and made yourself even shriller. How’s a person suppose to live in a fantasy world, when you keep killing my buzz like this?
burnspbesq
We need some intrepid soul to re-record an old Frank Zappa song, with a slight change in the lyrics:
“McConnell Wants to Kill Your Mama”
John Weiss
@Steve: Steve, life expectancy statistics are heavily swayed by the infant mortality rate. Life expectancy is an average. Statisticans,liars and damned liars, remember?
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
i prefer the term vulturecare
Citizen_X
@flounder:
I like “Hoovercare,” myself, but that’s just probably just the history geek talking.
flounder
@JCT: I don’t really blame them for thinking they could pull it off. They’ve been ramping up how much they can lie and get away with for 30 years.
Also, I now figure they got some assurances from high up in the D-team that they would get cover for their proposal in the form of another 90:10 “compromise”. By that I mean that I think Ryan got double-crossed (or at the very least the classic Dem slow reaction/indecision machine screwed him).
I have a feeling that the vouchercare roll-out was supposed to coincide with a semi-planned shock to the bond market, some Conrad/Gang of Six plan proposal or something like that and the timing didn’t happen for whatever reason. Heck, maybe Grover Norquist did really screw up the 90:10 at the last moment because he wouldn’t give his approval to some minor revenue raising proposals.
And let’s be clear here, they almost pulled it off, I mean Politifact(sic), who also appears to be in on the con, is still trying to claim that Paul Ryan’s vouchercare is exactly the same as Medicare and anyone who says differently is a pants on fire. (as an aside, the whole fact-checking thing that was half-useful for the last few years is now completely useless).
jimbob
@MattR: Have you and jl factored in guns and cars? They have something to do with life expectancy in the good ole US of A.
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
@Citizen_X: Hoovercare? Just sucking your life away izzit?
Steve
@John Weiss: I think he was talking about life expectancy at age 65, which presumably would be unaffected by infant mortality. But there are so many other issues from country to country like lifestyle, retirement age, yadda yadda.
Citizen_X
@Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason: I was thinking about a parallel to Hoovervilles, but that works too.
Redshift
@Citizen_X: I think it’s better to avoid all of them, and stick with “Republicans voted to kill Medicare.” It fits on a bumper sticker, leaves them flailing to explain their BS that it’s not true (when you’re explaining, you’re losing), and is more resistant to obfuscation than a new buzzword. Plus, naming it reinforces the idea that the GOP actually created something to replace Medicare, when all they really did was say “you’re on your own, suckers!”
A while back there was a gloomy post where DougJ (I think) was saying that before long, Republicans will engineer a vote on something else, call it “Ryancare,” and convince the Village that’s what Democrats are talking about when they attack “Ryancare.”
Except Democrats aren’t attacking “Ryancare.” Their line of attack has been “Republicans voted to end Medicare,” and that’s going to remain true no matter how many phony votes the GOP uses to try to confuse the issue.
joel hanes
Best takedown I’ve seen yet of Ryan’s “Medicare” policy: at Merge Left Democrats Must Save the Bush Tax Cuts
I propse the Democrats save the unsustainable Bush Tax Cuts with a plan they must naturally call the “Bush Tax Cuts. … the Democrats must step in and save this program with a set of coupons that are redeemable for government services equal in value to the amount rich people are currently getting from the Bush Tax Cuts. So instead of the Government giving some millionaire $100,000 in US dollars for his share of the Bush Tax Cuts, instead the millionaire gets a coupon worth $100,000 in government services, like National Defense, roads, schools, sewers, courts, police, air traffic control, border security, bridges, food inspection, non-destitute seniors and educated children.”
joel hanes
fershlugginer blockquotes, how do they work ?
CathiBea
The best name for the vouchers that I’ve Found is from the comments on Dough-hats screed about Dr Kevorkian’s death. It is the Congressman Ryan Allotment Plan and associated vouchers.
Lol
“Republicans voted to end Medicare as we know it” I think is a stronger phrasing. It’s resistant to charges to cloud the issue by bringing up politifact and the phrasing brings up fear of the unknown. Don’t talk about vouchers or Ryancare or anything, just tell people it’s a mysterious unknown thatll provide their health care. Much scarier than any gov’t bureaucrat.
WereBear
@J. Michael Neal: Sounds wonderful!
Bulworth
Now if we could only find a way to make sure the Republican nominating process drags out as long as possible. My ultimate wish is for no candidate to get a majority of delegates, thus forcing a final battle at their convention between, oh let’s just say, Romney, T-Paw, Santorum and a never-actually-declared Palin.
Enlightened Liberal
I saw on another blog that someone used the term “coupon” rather than voucher- I like that one best. “The Republican’s are going to end Medicare and replace it with a discount coupon.”
I’m no expert on messaging but that resonates with me. Voucher implies that it will cover the cost of insurance, reality says it will cover only part of the cost.