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Come for the politics, stay for the snark.
Mediocre white men think RFK Jr’s pathetic midlife crisis is inspirational. The bar is set so low for them, it’s subterranean.
“Loving your country does not mean lying about its history.”
A snarling mass of vitriolic jackals
I am pretty sure these ‘journalists’ were not always such a bootlicking sycophants.
A norm that restrains only one side really is not a norm – it is a trap.
The unpunished coup was a training exercise.
This has so much WTF written all over it that it is hard to comprehend.
Dumb motherfuckers cannot understand a consequence that most 4 year olds have fully sorted out.
There is no compromise when it comes to body autonomy. You either have it or you do not.
Today’s gop: why go just far enough when too far is right there?
Michigan is a great lesson for Dems everywhere: when you have power…use it!
The Supreme Court cannot be allowed to become the ultimate, unaccountable arbiter of everything.
“Perhaps I should have considered other options.” (head-desk)
I see no possible difficulties whatsoever with this fool-proof plan.
There are no moderate republicans – only extremists and cowards.
Republicans don’t want a speaker to lead them; they want a hostage.
The Giant Orange Man Baby is having a bad day.
Baby steps, because the Republican Party is full of angry babies.
Accountability, motherfuckers.
If a good thing happens for a bad reason, it’s still a good thing.
Sadly, there is no cure for stupid.
Everybody saw this coming.
You know it’s bad when the Project 2025 people have to create training videos on “How To Be Normal”.
So it was an October Surprise A Day, like an Advent calendar but for crime.
schrodinger's cat
I would love to see you in the NYT. By the way how is the mighty Tunch?
Mudge
I don’t mind Gail Collins, but we’ll have to see what the new executive editor, Jill Abramson, does. TNC is Bob Herbert plus. A great addition and such a nice complement to Bobo, Doughy Bobo, and the Mustache of Wisdom. Let’s see if she keeps him.
cleek
good for him, and for NYT readers.
hope it lasts.
evap
I really like TNC’s blog/column at the Atlantic, but I hate that it’s at the Atlantic. I hope he posts more at NYT.
Comrade Javamanphil
Worth the link and the read. TNC never disappoints.
tomvox1
X-Men? Really? Can’t even bring himself to get pissed at the movie’s whitewashing. And that saccharine last 3 lines:
Yuck. Maybe he was dumbing it down for his first time out at the Gray Lady. At least he threw one N-bomb in there. Only one way to go from here, TNC. This chance may not come again. Pick up your game.
R-Jud
@schrodinger’s cat:
That made me picture Philip Seymour Hoffman wearing the NYT and nothing else.
Poopyman
Damn that was good. Hope Gail’s not in a rush.
schrodinger's cat
@R-Jud: with a giant cat sitting next to him?
PaulW
Enjoyed!
BDeevDad
The last three lines got me.
Josh
As a white male, I’m often blind to the systemic racism, both overt and covert that perpetuates modern society against black Americans.
However, over the course of a quarter century spent living in the south, I have seen countless acts of black racism, black criminality and utter lack of respect for the rule of law (ROL) from the overwhelming majority of the black people I encounter on a day-to-day basis.
I still shed tears every time I see “Mississippi Burning”, but the cognitive dissonance between the honest, persecuted people on TV who just want their fair chance and their great grandsons who lie, run from the police and break into my car has grown so great that I can no longer pretend that they are one and the same.
I’m not sure where I’m going with this, if anything I’m trying to openly and honestly come out of the closet as a very confused white guy who just realized he has racist tendencies; I know there are plenty of good, honest black people, I just haven’t had the pleasure of meeting them. When I hear or read thinly veiled rants about the racial injustice still suffered by blacks in this country, my mind says “yes, that’s horrible” while inside I’m screaming “It’s because brothers drive through my neighborhood at 2 in the morning blaring ‘fuck tha police’ then cry racism when they get the cops called on them.”
I need help.
R-Jud
@schrodinger’s cat: Not “next to” so much as before, behind, and all ’round him.
Hill Dweller
While TNC has flourished at The Atlantic, and probably has the best comments section on the net(present company excepted, of course), I’d love to see his profile raised even higher. This guest spot should help with that.
As for the column, it is about comic books and race, two of the most visited subjects at his normal gig, so I’m not surprised this was the topic(s) for his introductory column. Solid start, IMO.
aisce
squee! tnc, still rocking the hipster photo and the comic book superheroes, even in the new york times.
i actually thought that op-ed was maudlin as hell, but still. tnc in the nyt.
cleek
@Josh:
the guy on the other side of my cubicle wall seems nice enough. i don’t know what he does at 2am though. maybe he drives down your street, annoying you. i’m not going to ask him, though.
pika
“while it lasts” indeed.
Chris
Oh, shit.
MattR
I think I disagree with TNC’s premise though I am nowhere near the writer he is so I doubt I will be able to express my thoughts as well. If you are trying to convince White America that treating people based on genetic characteristics they cannot control is a bad thing, then I can see why you would want to make the lead characters as close to that white audience as possible. You want the audience to identify with those characters and be upset that they are being mistreated just because they are a mutant. I don’t think that would be as effective if the characters are black, gay or some other minority.
Granted, the flip side is that those members of the audience who are not white will not identify with the characters but I think you can make an argument that they don’t NEED to learn the lessons that the white audience does. Which then brings up questions about the purpose of the movie and whether it should be trying to educate or entertain (or which is the more important of the two).
(EDIT: FWIW – the five original X-Men were all white and I believe it took more than a decade for diversity to be introduced to the comic)
Josh
@cleek: I understand I just threw out a whole slew of generalities, I didn’t mean to suggest that the majority of black people are as I say. Rather, in my particular case, I feel racial profiling has taken hold in my mind because of my unique experiences. I acknowledge that isn’t fair.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Josh: I’ve lived in the South my whole life and everything you say is true, except about Mexicans.
TooManyJens
@Josh:
It’s not because of that. Young white men do plenty of obnoxious shit too, and nobody holds that against all whites. One manifestation of oppression is that the bad actions of any members of a disfavored group get held against all members.
I don’t know what to say about your claim that you see criminality among “the overwhelming majority of the black people I encounter on a day-to-day basis” except to wonder whether a) you work in the criminal justice system or b) black people who are just trying to live their lives are invisible to you. Or some of both. Confirmation bias is one of the bugs in our mental operating system, and we have to work to overcome it. EDIT: from your subsequent comment, it sounds like you realize that, which is the first step.
Just Some Fuckhead
And the Irish. Don’t get me started on them.
Omnes Omnibus
@Josh: What about judging white people based on the guy with a mullet and sleeveless t-shirt driving a jacked-up 4×4 with straight pipes and rebel flag decals?
schrodinger's cat
I think that’s true about any minority, the group gets tarred by the actions of a few. Muslims, gay people and on and on it goes..
Josh
@Just Some Fuckhead: Snark? I honestly can’t tell.
xaneroxane
@TooManyJens: This. And thanks for the link. We should all take a pause at that.
schrodinger's cat
@Omnes Omnibus: How are you this morning? I read your comment from a few days ago. I am in the same boat as your wife. I am not happy with my PhD program (in finance) and am figuring out the best way to get out.
scav
@TooManyJens: Live a while in a college town and the pricks walking through screaming at 2am [are] the best and brightest coming home from the bars. Oddly enough, it doesn’t seem to be held against them or their class.
Josh
@Omnes Omnibus: Those piles of human refuse make me sick to my stomach as well. They just don’t happen to be the ones cat-calling my wife when she walks through our apartment complex to pick up the mail.
Nick
TNC’s gift for writing is undeniable, as is his passion for the issues he champions, but reading his writing, I often feel as though he pictures himself delivering his blog posts, or in this case Op-Ed piece, from a podium on the Washington Mall, or from a large arena stage. A little less bombast, a little less self-satisfaction, would allow his ideas the breathing room to actually inform and communicate.
Omnes Omnibus
@schrodinger’s cat: I am okay; the situation sucks, but I will deal. My wife is actually going to be taking a leave of absence from her program. It was recommended. In this way, she can explore her options, but still come back to the program if she changes her mind.
schrodinger's cat
@Nick: He is good, but sometimes he comes across as Miss Goody Two Shoes.
cleek
@Josh:
right.
so, maybe meet some actual individuals. preferably non-hooligan types. nothing clears away a bad generality like a couple of good specifics.
Josh
@schrodinger’s cat: The reasons I think I’ve developed a “thing” against black people would fill a book; I got my undergrad in Psychology from a public university – I’m well aware of confirmation bias, and have fought long and hard to hold it at bay.
Ivan Ivanovich Renko
@schrodinger’s cat: And that is the clearest, most obvious example of white privilege– a white guy can be a complete moronic asshole, but one seldom hears that all white men are assholes like him.
lankyloo
I’m really glad TNC is there, even if just temporarily. The only thing that would make me happier would be if Daniel Larison replaced one of the conservative columnists.
Cat
@Josh
I’m sorry you are a racist who can’t accept he is. Instead of seeing the color of their skin just imagine the balance in their bank accounts. Maybe it will make more sense to you then.
I lived in a small town in Alabama for 6 years in the 90’s and none of the black people I met acted like you describe. When I moved to St Louis all the white people I met acted like you described.
I wonder…
Poopyman
@Josh:
No. Not from him. Never. And I believe he meant to say “Messikins”, phonetically.
daveNYC
TNC just doesn’t do it for me. His writing tone is too wishy-washy for me. And his last three lines in this article are horrible. Hallmark bad.
Poopyman
@Omnes Omnibus: Yeah, well in that particular case my bias is entirely justified.
Josh
@cleek: Yeah, maybe a “meet a black person” day? Do you even listen to yourself? I’m not justifying my thoughts, I’m trying to illustrate how and why the dark spectre of racism persists in this country; through the everyday experiences of otherwise decent people.
I’m not trying to get agreement here. Just acknowledgement that there is a disconnect between the experiences of privileged white people living in well-to-do neighborhoods and occupations where the black people are as threatening as Bill Cosby and the flip side of that coin, where break-ins, harassment and violence are all too real, and more often than not, have a readily identifiable, reliably accurate racial component.
Poopyman
@lankyloo: The thing that gives me hope is that The Times actually thought that asking him onboard was a good idea. Hopefully this is a trial run for a steady gig?
Ghanima Atreides
Not a fan.
Any friend of lying assclowns Douthat and Weigel is no friend of mine.
Chris
@Ivan Ivanovich Renko:
Seems like as good a time as any to bring back these two “What If Sarah Palin Were Black?” threads from January:
https://balloon-juice.com/2011/01/19/what-if-sarah-palin-were-black/
and
https://balloon-juice.com/2011/01/19/what-if-sarah-palin-were-black-cont/
For the purposes of this conversation, this is the quote that came to mind:
Ivan Ivanovich Renko
@Josh: Much the same way I feel when I’m in rural/suburban areas– I just know those white people are looking at me funny; and want to call the police to have me checked out.
White fear of a black planet amazes me; and your ability to ignore– completely fucking IGNORE– white criminality– is one more shining example of white privilege in action.
TooManyJens
@Josh:
But, again, you’re applying a standard to black people that you do not apply to white people. Others in the thread have told you about their experiences with white people who behave exactly as you describe, yet somehow that just … doesn’t seem relevant to you. What you’re talking about — people having bad experiences with black people and using that to justify their bigotry — is a symptom of racism, not its cause.
jwb
@Omnes Omnibus: But also with Obama stickers right next to the rebel flags, like the truck down the street from me.
John Weiss
@MattR: “Which then brings up questions about the purpose of the movie and whether it should be trying to educate or entertain (or which is the more important of the two).”
No, no. There’s no hierarchy. Successful education is entertaining.
lankyloo
@Poopyman: I hope so too.
burnspbesq
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Dear Fuckhead,
We’re here. We’re staying. We fought your wars and built your fucking country. Deal with it, ya shite. Or we’ll whack ye upside the head with a hurley. And puke Guiness and Jameson’s all over your lifeless corpse.
Sincerely,
The Irish
slag
@scav:
I feel this pain. Although I do hold it against them and their class.
Douchebags of the Night, you’re on notice.
Whiskey Screams from a Guy With No Short-Term Memory
@Josh: You have a pretty strong case, as TooManyJens said above, of “confirmation bias”.
For example, I live in San Diego, which has no black people, but has lots and lots of Mexicans, and from everything that you would read and hear and see on the news, you would think that we bolt our doors in fear of the Mexican Terror that goes raping and beheading and pillaging our streets at night, all while their political arm, La Raza, is forming plans to take back Aztlan by force from Whitey.
And there are a lot of folks here, mostly older and white, who do just that; lock their doors at sundown and sit in terror of the Mexican Menace.
But then I gotta look at the facts: I’ve been burglarized twice. Once in 1991 by white teens and once – badly – by a half white/half-Japanese former friend who developed an opiate addiction. Had my windshield shot out with a BB gun last week. White teens. Had my radio stolen out of my car back in 1989. White heroin addict. Two years ago, a bunch of twenty-something white kids did donuts in a stolen SUV on my front lawn.
The five-year old Mexican kid two doors down took an orange off the tree in my front yard without asking. Therein lies the sum total of Mexican criminal activity that I’ve been subject to.
And just another thing to keep in mind: Every single time anyone I know here has had their car break down, it is some Mexican guy who stops, makes sure everything is cool, will try to help fix it for you and will frequently succeed enough so that you can get your vehicle to a garage.
So there are the things that we are told are true, and then there are the things we find out for ourselves are true. My truth is that half-white/half-Japanese people are the most criminal and dangerous on the planet.
I don’t know what your truth is, but if you find yourself being victimized a lot, by any or all ethnic groups, the likeliest explanation is that you just live in a really shitty neighborhood and need to move.
Ivan Ivanovich Renko
@burnspbesq: Be glad they decided to pretend the Irish were white. Else the fookin’ sassenach bastards would just lynch ya, like they did to us.
Amir_Khalid
I liked Ta-Nehisi Coates’ first guest column at the New York Times. Yes, his ending felt tacked-on and was soppy. But I’ve got weaker stuff than that under my own byline. (Sorry, I cannot provide examples. My old newspaper doesn’t put its archive online.)
He does have a good point that non-whites are all but written out of the X-Men’s alternative history. He’d make a great permanent replacement for any of the NYT’s bottom five columnists — Blow, Brooks, Douthat, Dowd, or the Moustache — and if they can, they should hire him away from The Atlantic.
Violet
Good for TNC. Glad to see him getting the opportunity. He writes well and about subjects and in ways that not a lot of other people in similar mainstream publications do. I’m glad of his voice.
Josh
@TooManyJens: I am doing no such thing. I hold all people accountable equally, but as I’ve said countless times, in MY EXPERIENCE the people sexually harassing my WIFE, breaking into my VEHICLE, and being loud at 3 in the morning have all. been. black.
I can’t stand white criminals either. Loud pipes on big trucks are code for “I have a small penis”, and I detest them and their ilk, but they aren’t the ones giving me the hard time. If they were, I’d be ranting about them in a thread about Sarah Palin.
Don’t confuse me for a dyed-in-the-wool bigot, I am being honest about the fact that young black men of a certain dress and posture give me pause because the empirical evidence from my life has taught me to do so. Nothing else.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@Just Some Fuckhead:
people from ohio.
martha
@burnspbesq: As a Scot, my people resemble that remark. Except substitute Caledonian and Macallan or the whiskey of your choice.
timb
@schrodinger’s cat: Republicans….
BDeevDad
@Whiskey Screams from a Guy With No Short-Term Memory: You must live in my neighborhood where all the houses were getting robbed by the white teenager kid who lived across the street. I wonder how many of my white neighbors who didn’t know he was caught multiple times would have let him go if he had been Mexican.
jwb
@John Weiss: Not all education can or should be entertaining; some of it, like certain forms of exercise, is necessarily downright boring, especially if it involves mastering a fine physical skill (think practicing scales on a musical instrument) or any kind of mechanical task. Sometimes you can make up games and so forth to relieve the boredom of the exercise and anyone with pedagogical skill always tries to do so whenever possible but the activities have to be carefully calibrated to reinforce and not distract from the skill at hand.
Josh
In closing, I think in my case confirmation bias is certainly accurate. I’ve been unfortunate to have had bad experiences that twist my perceptions. I apologize for offending anyone with my bluntness, and if anyone took my comments as a condemnation of an entire race, please go back and read all of my comments to see otherwise.
I have a problem. I admit it. I was just chipping in because I think a lot of people have the same problem and aren’t willing to be so open about it. It doesn’t excuse ANYTHING, but it may help explain a few things about why racism persists. The only black friends I’ve ever had got flack from their African American friends for “acting white”. I don’t know if that’s relevant or not, but I thought I’d toss that out there.
Then again, maybe I just need my head examined.
slag
@timb: It’s true. Everything Bobo writes just confirms what morans Republicans are. Same is true of everything Sarah Palin posts on her Facebook page. And everything Peggy Noonan waxes unpoetic about. And every word and logical construct Dick Cheney and GW Bush ever tortured. And….
jh
@ Josh
I was once married to a woman who used to live in what could loosely be described as artist’s lofts (it was a barely renovated bottle cap factory) in Baltimore.
Across the street was an abandoned school where Season 3 of The WIRE was filmed.
All around were derelict buildings and formstone (the polyester of brick) rowhouses, lived in by lower income people.
Using your model, which as others have pointed out is a pretty strong case of confirmation bias, not to mention racism, she and I would have been completely justified in conflating the behaviors of the mostly white, hipster, heroin addicts who lived in and hung around our building, routinely breaking into her storage unit, shooting up and vomiting in the common areas, and making her life a living hell each and every day, into the behaviors of all white people.
Not to mention the tough, blue collar white males who drove around southeasterm, B’more blasting loud music and harrassing women.
We are African-Americans BTW.
The solution to your problem is simple.
Stop being a racist.
Josh
@Cat: Just saw this. So you’re saying poor people as a rule don’t know how to act? In my experience, they tend to stay in the trailer park, not bring half the trailer park to my apartment complex because one person they know lives there.
elmo
@burnspbesq:
If you’re going to puke whiskey, at least puke up the damn Protestant whiskey Bushmill’s instead of the good Jameson’s. Don’t you know anything?
Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill
@Josh:
And as others are saying, that’s not why you’re getting static.
It’s because you’re not grasping why, and how, confirmation bias plays out.
Here’s a pretty painful, personal example. My Mother had a horrible habit of getting into “business deals” that were far too good to be true — and getting ripped off as a result. Indeed, she was dealing with fallout from one on her deathbed, fighting cancer.
And every one of the people she dealt with, who ripped her off, were African American. Without exception. And having to clean up from her failures, I kept a silent, agonized count. It was ugly and painful, and I ended up, time and again, asking her to stop — which failed. Miserably.
Now, go back and re-read those last 2 paragraphs, with the image of my Mom, a 5’10” African American women, in mind. And see how the idea of Blacks ripping off Blacks changes the game, change how you see it, plays with one’s confirmation bias. For my Mother grew up distrusting “Whites”, sadly for good reasons in some cases — but it grew into a rule, grew into a heart hardened, even as she saw her son oft-lauded by White people for one thing or another.
Here’s another, personal example, of my own bias and racism. I’ve dated women of primarily Irish decent before, and enjoy the overall Celtic culture as well. As part of that, I used to make lots of jokes around the Irish and drinking — having 2 Irish pubs at ground floor of my workplace helped immensely, as well as my sense that most of the ethnically-Irish folks I knew loved to drink. Or so, it seemed to me.
All that stopped when I dated a women of “half-Irish” decent a few years ago. And it didn’t stop because she yelled at me, or anything. It stopped when I found out things about her family which made me think about how I’d want my family to be seen as an example of my ethnic group. And it echoed when I considered another Isiah-descendant woman I dated, and how little she drank in reality — not just in my screwed-up memories.
Racism is deep, man. Confirmation bias don’t play games. You need to check yourself, yes even with all of the “help me” and “I’m just being real”. We push back not out of hate, but so you understand what you’re saying, and how it reads to those of us who have been fighting this fight for years.
Cool?
Ivan Ivanovich Renko
@elmo: What? WHAT?? Jesus, Mary and Joseph– and all these years I’ve been drinking Bushmills because a good Republican (Irish republican, ye daft gits!) named Liam Devlin recommended it to me.
TooManyJens
@Josh:
But what you wouldn’t be doing is saying, “This is why we have such a problem with anti-white bigotry in this country,” because that would be obviously absurd. But you have stated that you think the bad behavior of some black people is why we still have such a problem with racism.
It’s not OK for people to be racist. It’s not OK even if they’ve had bad experiences with black people. It’s not OK even if they’re “otherwise decent people.” Some black people’s bad behavior is not an excuse for racism, nor is it the cause of racism.
Josh
@jh: Let me spell this out for you. I voted for Obama, and will do so again. I don’t have anything against black people per se, I was trying to explain that a very plausible reason that racism exists is because where I live, the confirmation bias is unavoidable. I hate it, and I am not too fond of myself right now for thinking it.
My last interaction with people of color was surreal. A woman was driving in circles in the middle of a crowded intersection with the passenger door wide open. I thought the driver had a heart attack or similar. I jumped out of my car, ran over to the vehicle and discovered that the driver was a screaming black woman, her passenger was pregnant and a black man was sitting on the pregnant woman trying to force her out of the moving car. I yelled at the crazy driver to stop, which she did after running over my foot. The man shoved the pregnant woman out of the car, and just sat in the passenger seat telling the hysterical driver to “take me home”. In shock I tended to the pregnant woman, helping her to reach a sitting position on the curb, while the man and woman in the car continued yelling at each other. The man’s friend (I presume) pulled up, and yelled at his friend to leave before the cops showed up. They sped off, and during the resulting confusion (there were about 30 witnesses to the incident, and about 5 other good Samaritans rendering aid to the pregnant woman) the women took off in her car, leaving me holding the bag to file the police report when they showed up.
But no, it’s my fault, you’re right. I just need to stop being racist. I’M TRYING.
TooManyJens
Sigh. My previous comment is in moderation. Keyword-based spam filtering is such bullshit.
Poopyman
@burnspbesq: Fer fuck’s sake man! Can ya not spell “Guinness” right after readin’ all the coasters?
Lol
I had to cringe at the black guy dying first.
That said, it was interesting that the Hellfire club (and ultimately the brotherhood) was pretty diverse and not surprising. Of course Angel is going to readily believe humans will hate and villify her for being a mutant, she already gets hated for simply having different color skin.
MattR
@Josh: How is the fact that they were people of color meaningful in any way when recounting that story?
TooManyJens
@Josh:
That does not mean a person isn’t racist. I heard some mindboggling stories from fellow Obama canvassers in 2008, about voters cheerfully assuring them that, “Oh yes, we’re planning to vote for the nigger.”
And we’re trying to say that that’s not why racism exists. Confirmation bias, after all, serves to confirm a belief that is already held. It just does not happen in our society that the bad actions of some whites get held up as proof that white people are inferior — even in places where there is a lot of social pathology among whites. If you can understand why that is, you will understand why the bad actions of some blacks are not the reason for racism.
Chris
@Josh:
I get what you’re saying. It’s just that frankly, I’m not sure what we, or the black community, are expected to do about it.
There are black people who are weapons-grade assholes – no one’ll ever dispute the fact, probably least of all black people. There are also white people of the same kind, like the ones JH described above. If society attaches a stigma to the black community because of its assholes, but not to me or the white community for the same reason… well then, it’s society that has a problem.
So yeah, sure, a lot of people have this confirmation bias against black people. That’s entirely on them, and it’s entirely their responsibility to get over it. It’s not the black non-asshole community’s fault, or their responsibility. There’s very little that they could do to correct the stereotype, even if they did try. And frankly, they shouldn’t be expected to.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Poopyman:
Fuckers stole everything that wasn’t nailed down and the only reason they didn’t steal that stuff was because they didn’t want shit with nail holes in it.
Josh
@Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill:
I’m sorry. I don’t think I hate, especially when it comes right down to it. But I know I’ve developed the “soft bigotry of low expectations”. I’m pleasantly surprised occasionally, but not often. I know I’ve got a problem, and I know that it pales in comparison to the problems of the victims of racism.
I just think an attitude of trying to understand each other – from both sides would accomplish more in the long run.
I’ve never marched for the right to sit at a lunch counter, I’ve never had dogs turned loose on me, and I’ve never been beaten, or killed for the color of my skin. I’m just some up-tight, sheltered white boy who thought black people where all friendly, happy people who you were kind to no matter what, because they have had a rough time, and when I actually grew up learned that reality is different than all the after-school specials whose anti-racism lessons I committed so strongly to heart. People are people.
jh
@Josh:
It IS your fault.
Why?
Because you lack the ability to imagine that people of any race can, have and do behave in a manner like the scenarios you’ve so graphically laid out for us.
Nor do your words seem to reflect your having experiences that might undermine your confirmation biases.
No, it’s just those key-raaazy black people, doin’ crazy stuff, all the time. And oh, the long suffering person who has no choice but to embrace racist views because of it.
What you have done is trot out the shopworn position of every racist who has ever walked the earth.
“If only ___________ (insert name of already disfavored group) would behave in an acceptable manner, I wouldn’t be able to justify their mistreatment.
It’s a circular justification of the worst sort.
jnfr
I love that TNC mixes politics and culture and wraps it all in those very human, personal moments. It is kind of emo at times, but he has the writing chops to pull it off.
goblue72
@Josh: It gives you pause because you ARE bigoted. Period. Full Stop.
Seriously, if this were face to face in the meatspace and I had to listen to that justification of being a racist, I’d kick you out of my house. With extreme prejudice. Stop digging your hole and deal with it.
tequila
Josh, I’m Asian and I moved into an apartment in Crown Heights in Brooklyn, NY in 1997. It was much worse back then than it is now, but the riots in that neighborhood had happened just 5-6 years ago. My first interaction with my neighbors was getting jumped by three adolescent boys who were outraged I was wearing a Boston Red Sox hat on Eastern Parkway – there was and remains a big Bloods set based in the Albany projects a few blocks from my apartment. I kept my hat but got some bruises.
The next interaction was having my next-door neighbor help me home and calling 911 to insist I file a police report. He offered to meet me and walk me home every night after I got out of work. I didn’t accept, but we hung out a lot after that.
The first was the only bad interaction I ever had in Crown Heights. I’ve lived in only majority-minority neighborhoods (black and Latino) for almost 20 years now in NYC and I’ve never, ever had anything else like that ever happen.
All I can say is that you appear to have had many negative experiences, without having any positive offsetting experiences. I suppose you should be aware that I and most others have not had the singular experience you have had. Do you have any ideas why this is?
Ivan Ivanovich Renko
@jnfr: Yeah, this here. TNC is the shit; even if he ain’t for everybody.
AAA Bonds
I hope y’all bought his book.
If not, and you like TNC and want to see him around more, why not BUY HIS BOOK?
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@elmo:
au contrare mon o’frere
the legend has it that bushmills is protestant because it comes from belfast, and jameson’s is catholic because it’s made in cork.
not so fast my friend(h/t lee corso)
john jameson a scot, founded jameson’s buying an already large distillery in the 1780’s.
bushmills has a catholic master distiller. it was “in the hands of smugglers” according to a victorian whisky historian, in the 1750s
truly the distinction is uniquely american.
jnfr
@AAA Bonds:
I bought his book!
Josh
@goblue72: Y’know what? Forget this, and forget you. I came here trying to have an open, honest conversation about an uncomfortable topic, and apparently that makes me a bigot, and a racist. I have not been mean or abusive to anyone in this post, nor have I once claimed that mistreatment or abuse based on racial prejudice is ever justified.
You want to lump me in with the boogeyman of the racist white southerner, with hatred in his heart, go ahead. But now you’re being the bigot and an asshole as well.
I grew up with an ideal about how to be colorblind and tolerant, and when it was shattered it was shattered HARD. If you can’t take a moment to realize that not everyone who has prejudice chooses it because they are mean, hateful people then you’re obviously not ready for this conversation.
period. full stop.
trollhattan
Excellent! Douthat should just resign in embarrassment over the stark contrast and hand over his chair to TNC. Now that’d be a win-win.
asiangrrlMN
@Josh: This is the weakest shit of all your shit. People are people. Expecting black people to fit ANY stereotype is just weak. And, “I’m just putting it out there” doesn’t stop what you’re saying from being flat-out racist. Nor should it inoculate you from push-back because then it’s just masturbatory and you can say it to your friends who probably will nod their heads in sympathy. It adds nothing to the conversation if people aren’t allowed to tell you why they disagree with your outlook.
Others have said it more eloquently, but seriously. Stop. You’re justifying racism on the fact that you have your confirmation biases filled on a…what, daily basis? Weekly basis? Monthly basis? Well, guess what, I see shitty behavior from white people all the damn time (mostly because of where I live) and it doesn’t lead me to think all white people are shitty or to ignore when people of other colors act shitty as well.
When I lived in SF, do you want to know who hit on me the most when I was out exercising? White guys. Do you know who bullied me and my brother when I was a kid? White kids.
Shorter me: There are many shitty people. It’s not an excuse to perpetuate racism.
@Josh: ETA: No, you came here to have people tell you you’re ok and not racist. Otherwise, you would actually listen to what other people are saying and not protest so loudly. Yes, this is a difficult topic, but you can’t expect people not to give you their honest feedback.
On to the actual topic of the post: I adore TNC, and I’m glad he found his spot at the Times. I’m wasting all my free reads on his posts.
TooManyJens
@Josh:
goblue72 never did that. Bigotry has other faces besides the racist white southerner with hatred in his heart. Not wearing a white sheet doesn’t mean a person doesn’t have racist attitudes they need to confront.
Again, replying to something that wasn’t said.
I think you’re the one who wasn’t ready for this conversation. You seem to have thought you would come here and not be challenged on your comments about how black people make it really hard not to be racist, but by God you’re trying anyway (in some unspecified way). That was, let’s say, unrealistic.
Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill
@Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill:
I have no issue with that, in theory.
But in the world? Brother, you’re late to the game. You assume I, and many other African Americans, “don’t understand how you (typical Euro-American/Caucasian/White) person feels”. And that is, in MANY cases, so wrong it pales in funny. It’s why so many people are just like “you’re still being a bigot” — because it assumes that your knowledge of racism, and mine, are equal.
Almost every African American has a tale or two about having to come to grips with some aspect or another of not just “white” culture, but having to educate yourself on how “they” feel, what “they” mean. Parents of little kids, or pre-teens, have to teach them how to interact with “white” people. We learn this stuff early, because, in too many cases, it means life, and death.
So far, you’re pretty much saying the same things many people have said for decades and centuries prior, when opening their eyes to injustice “their said” has perpetrated. That’s awesome.
And to that, self-education — seeking out works and books and sites on racism, on privilege, on bias — will lead you far better than insisting on a dialogue that, at this stage, usually leaves people frustrated and angry — as you already are, right? This is from my experience, and I’m going to say it likely trumps your in this area.
You can start with reading works like Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack, discussions about the Tone Argument (which you are skating close to), and so forth.
I’d encourage you to read one of MLK’s last written works, A New Sense of Direction, and challenge you to engage it, esp. with it’s critiques — echoed many years ago with Letter for a Birmingham Jail — around “helpful” white moderates, and listen to his explanation of riots, and the real reasons and background around them. In that, you’ll find echoes of the discussions in African American communities today around the levels of violence, and how we address them.
But yes, READ. If you need to discuss, that link to the Tone Argument is to a community that’s explicitly around helping people manage and get a grip on their racism; I’d encourage joining it.
Josh
@asiangrrlMN, @toomanyjens:
I am not justifying anything, I’m not saying it’s okay, I’ve admitted it’s not. Pointing out causation is not the same as justification. If you refuse to accept that everyday people become bigoted because of what they see, every day, then you are delusional, and insincere in your desire to understand it and subsequently put a stop to it.
I’m also not saying that this is black people problem. It’s a white problem. But screaming racist at the top of your lungs is not going to make it go away, it just buries the problem even deeper. If you don’t think countless liberals see black people riding in Escalades with rims blaring vulgar obscene music and think to themselves “that’s not what I marched for” then you’re kidding yourselves.
I don’t mind being challenged on my views, but stop telling me I’m something I’m not, saying something I’m not, for reasons I’m not.
jimbob
@asiangrrlMN: Pssst . . .(right click yer mouse on the headline, choose “save link as,” and viola! the html pops up in yer downloads. Doesn’t count as a visit. Also, going to the Times via a link such as John has posted doesn’t count either.)
TooManyJens
@Josh:
I don’t think I can be any more clear than I and others have already been on why this is fallacious, so I’m just going to say: try re-reading the thread.
Pointing out racist attitudes is not the problem, no matter how much the people who hold those attitudes don’t want to hear it.
Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill
@Josh:
My other comment that tackles this is some detail is in moderation, so this is the short form.
Brother, half the problem here is your continual assumption that “we” have to meet “white” people anywhere near half-way. The very example you gave is exactly what @asiangrrlMN is lambasting you over — anyone who ID’s as a Liberal, and thinks that illogically, isn’t a Liberal; s/he’s a wanna-be, a person who’s liberalism is as shallow as the bumper stickers on their Prius.
A person who’s educated, and who’s studied racial issues, knows that such symbolism is, for example, a cultural re-interpretation of the long-standing cultural worship of “gangsters”. They know that, as harmful as it can be, it’s a dim reflection of the harm groups like the Mafia have done, and get away with. And said harm includes the damage they’ve done to the ethnic minorities that run such groups, traditionally.
Really, go read MLK’s LETTER FROM A BIRMINGHAM JAIL, and pay attention to the section on White Moderates. King — the peacemaker, the “nice guy”, the Dreamer — rakes them over hot coals over their tepid support of his work — and this in his early years! And as my other post in moderation notes, he held those views until just before he died.
Again, what you’re saying is NOT NEW. Please stop acting like you’ve hit the knowledge of racism lottery.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@Just Some Fuckhead:
the schlong and winding choad
Josh
@TooManyJens: Please, dumb it down for me: Why is it not the case that bigoted thoughts result from repeated observations of certain bad behaviors that are unique in their nature or occurrence, and are specific, (but not totally exclusive) to a certain demographic?
Explain this one clearly and rationally and I super swear to go away and never come back.
Josh
@Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill:
To wit:
“I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.
I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.”
-Excerpt from “Letter from a Birmingham Jail”, Martin Luther King, Jr.
TooManyJens
@Josh: So, your response to “I and several others have explained this repeatedly” is, “well, explain it again”? No. Go back and read.
I have. You haven’t. And anyway, I’m not asking you to go away and never come back, just to think critically.
Josh
@TooManyJens: I have gone back and read every single comment in this thread, and I am not trying to be obtuse.
The closest thing to an explanation I could find was the dubious claim that bigotry has no basis in observed reality, and the solution is to simply stop being bigoted. Am I close? Then your reality differs from mine.
There is a very real problem with graduation rates, crime and poverty in this country amongst the black community, to a degree that is significantly statistically different from other demographics, and the answer cannot possibly still be that the “man” is holding them down, can it?
TooManyJens
@Josh:
As Wolfgang Pauli once said, “Not only is it not right, it’s not even wrong!” You’re completely disregarding about 90% of what has been said, for reasons known only to yourself. I’m done.
Ghanima Atreides
@trollhattan: TNC and Douthat are friends.
TNC luffs that glibertarian reacharound as long its Douthat and Weigel doing him.
Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill
@Josh: Wow. Really? Are you engaging in nonviolent direct action? Then why claim the mantle of it’s work? Why claim your writings here as even roughly equal to people who have and still are working through these issues for decades and decades?
In another part of that Letter, MLK describes a 4 step process they undertook before deciding on such actions that would lead to the kinds of revelations he describes there. Are you familiar with that process? Do you know, for example, why he chose to spend days upon days negotiating before choosing to send people against dogs and billy clubs? Do you understand why direct action, directly pointing out an issue, was the LAST point, and not the first, for his work?
Or did you find it, read just the section I said to point esp. (not the only!) attention to, and thereby shallowly quote one of the most critical and important thinkers in American history? And thereby underline our points — that you don’t grasp why racism is what it is in America, and that rather than shallowly debate, you might want to educate yourself.
You didn’t come here to do “direct action”. You came here to “get help.” And you need to grasp that Tough Love, that honestly, is help — it’s just not the kind you want to hear, because you want a pat on the head, and to be told “oh gosh, you’re not really racist!” But it’s what you need to hear, and moreover, you’re not in a position to “demand” help of any oppressed people.
My earlier comment, with lots of links, is now out of moderation. As the ol’ skool’ saying goes, check yourself before you wreak yourself.
I spent some time putting together a good-faith argument and resources for you, including a community that’s around discussing these issues for beginners. Don’t spoil it by trying to smack me around again, man.
jh
@Josh:
You may not be trying to be obtuse, but you are certainly succeeding at doing so nonetheless.
You are missing several very large and glaring points, and highlighting a passage from an MLK letter isn’t getting you there.
The points you are missing are as follows:
1. Anti-black racism did not come about because people were race neutral or agnostic until they had their own version of your experiences (which I am starting to think are ficticious) at which point they came to the rational, just conclusion to dislike black people.
Anti-black racism was derived wholly from the concept of white supremacy and the “fact” that because blacks were inferior, godless savages, mistreating them was justifiable and in fact was benefitting them by bringing them into civilization and Christianity. Everything else that has come about that time are the eggs this a very, very, poisonous chicken.
2. You state: There is a very real problem with graduation rates, crime and poverty in this country amongst the black community, to a degree that is significantly statistically different from other demographics, and the answer cannot possibly sti ll be that the “man” is holding them down, can it?
The answer quite simply, Yes – if we are speaking in terms of institional discrimination, combined with many other factors which don’t require tBull Connor, KKK style racism to still have harmful effects on a community. While these things are delinated increasingly along class lines as opposed to race, there this more than enough residual racism to have negative effects that are specific to the black community.
Alas, I fear, and yes I’m being a bit of an asshole here, that that conversaion might be a bit over your head at this point.
I’ll put it very simply: The true racist needs no justification for his racism. He simply hates and only seeks justification so as to appear not-quite-so-monstrous in the eyes of a civilized society.
Your homework for this evening is to contemplate the fact that the period marked by the most brutal injustices visited upon blacks took place during a time when blacks were enslaved (or near enslaved), had few rights and little in the way of personal freedoms which they might have used to harm a white person in any way.
Ask yourself how this fits into your model and then get back to us.
IMO, your thought process is flawed and you need to ask yoursef some hard questions.
Mr. Cactus
@Josh: It sucks that your personal experience have given you an unfair and biased view of black people — and to your great credit, you recognize that your gut-level reaction here is unfair and unworthy of the person you wish to be. (And ain’t it a bitch how emotional reactions just won’t respond to perfectly good logic?)
One of the places where you’re getting into trouble is, I believe, that you’re over-generalizing. “It doesn’t excuse ANYTHING, but it may help explain a few things about why racism persists.” Well, no, not really — at least, not in as broad a sense as you seem to be claiming. It explains why it persists for YOU. Likely some other people, too. But certainly not for everybody.
You’re very clearly getting hot under the collar, and I completely understand why. People aren’t screaming racist at YOU — they’re screaming it at your attitudes and at what you’re saying. I know that sounds like splitting hairs and playing stupid semantics games, but it’s really a very important distinction.
Can an otherwise smart person sometimes do or say stupid sh*t? Christ, yes. By that same token, a person who fundamentally has no problem with people of color can sometimes do or say racist sh*t. Doesn’t make you A racist; just means you have some sh*t to work through. You know, like each and every other person in the United States.
You have, by your own admission, some racist sh*t in your head that you’re trying to work through. However, despite your claims to the contrary, you very strongly come across as placing the blame for your own sh*t on the black people you’re interacting with. This is wrong.
Based on the experiences you’ve described, it is also completely understandable. In your shoes, I (unfortunately) suspect my own reaction would be similar. Doesn’t make it any less wrong.
I feel for you, I really do. I suspect I grew up with the same boogeymen you did, grew up learning that racism is a dumptruck full of evil. Learned that racism is cops turning the firehoses onto protesters and unleashing the dogs, learned that racism is brutally murdering and mutilating black men and hanging their bodies from trees.
Trouble is, racism is more than that. It’s a bunch of little stuff too, stuff we carry around with us and propagate. Damned few of us are malicious when we do or say racist crap — we don’t even realize we’re doing it! And that’s the problem.
And Jesus Tapdancing CHRIST is it hard to hear. It’s hard to hear somebody calling you out on your own racist crap without having a gut-level reaction that they’re calling you evil — that they’re lumping you in with the monsters who light crosses on lawns.
You’re no more evil than anybody else here, man. I just suspect you have more sh*t to work through than you realize — which sucks, because you’re feeling the weight of what you already KNOW you have to work through.
I feel for you. You’re saying some really stupid sh*t without realizing it. But I still feel for you.
metricpenny
@Josh:
“If you don’t think countless liberals see black people riding in Escalades with rims blaring vulgar obscene music and think to themselves “that’s not what I marched for” then you’re kidding yourselves.”
I’m not kidding myself. That is EXACTLY why I marched – in order for my people to live freely in this country with the rights given to all Americans under the Constitution.
You said you wanted help. Help has been provided all through this thread and you’ve not accepted it.
I’m speculating that you are living in less than stellar conditions brought on by certain economic realities and you’re needing to blame someone to make it through the day. Well don’t blame black people. You need to blame the greedy, selfish white people on Wall Street that destroyed our economy. Then come back and ask for help dealing with that.
Bill Murray
@Josh:
The bigoted thought is that a small group of people are representative of the group as a whole. The observations of certain bad behaviors reinforce this bigoted thought. The observation of behavior will not grow into bigotry without the manure of stereotyping to feed it.
Bobby Thomson
Is throne a verb now?
Josh
Thank you for the help offered, I am indeed reading the links posted, and yes, I am reading all of it.
I understand I’ve probably posted some stupid shit that is racist on its face and for that I’m sorry. I’ve had a very privileged upbringing and live in a part of town that used to be very nice, so I’m not very familiar with the nuances of these discussions.
I have not embellished my personal experiences one bit, but those experiences that have been negative affected me probably exactly because I am a sheltered white male whose only real understanding of racism comes from the aforementioned movies, tv, etc.
I should have been more thoughtful, and more careful in expressing myself and my frustrations, and again, I’m sorry. I understand that racism is rooted in a superiority complex, but I thought (however incorrectly) that this was distinguishable from what is called racism today. I’ve obviously stumbled blindly into something I know precious little about, and will now bow out less than gracefully.
My ignorant thesis, underlying whatever else was said, was ‘Why can’t people – all people – just obey the law, the rules and study hard and do well for themselves? Why must hardship be blamed on anything other than poor behavior or bad luck?’ I’m still not sure that I’m wrong, but I’m willing to read what has been recommended (and I’m never sure that I’m right, either.)
I’m confident, from some of the more upset comments that most here misunderstood my frustrations, but I can hardly blame them, as I myself don’t have them nailed down just yet. For what it’s worth, I am hopeful that we can live in a post-racial society, but not until everyone is willing to take personal responsibility for themselves and their actions, justifications be damned.
Ivan Ivanovich Renko
@Josh: Because it’s not always disobeying the law, studying hard, etc. etc. etc.
You should be aware that the unemployment rate for college educated black people is twice that for white people.
You should know that a white job applicant with a criminal record is more likely to get a callback than a black applicant with no criminal record.
You should know that despite roughly equal rates of drug use, blacks are far more likely to be stopped than whites, more likely to be arrested (for the same offense) than whites, more likely to be convicted than whites, and far more likely to be imprisoned than whites.
I’m sorry, Josh, but you sound to me like just another fatuous fucking white boy who was born on third and thinks he hit a triple; another white boy who presumes to tell black people what racism is and of course, what it isn’t; another white boy who wants desperately to tell black people that whatever happens to us is all our own fault.
Many nice people here have tried to converse with you. I’m not that nice.
Fuck you, and the heroic white steed you rode in on.
(another) Josh
I think I’m gonna stop posting the occasional comment at B-J, ’cause the guy who’s been conversing in this thread under the same name I use is kinda disturbing.
Josh
@Ivan Ivanovich Renko: I’m sorry you feel that way.
MattR
@jh:
Sorry, but this is complete bullshit. A whole lot of anti-black racism comes from what you describe. But there is also racism born out of a fear of the different
@Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill:
Fair enough, but you probably just eliminated over half of self described liberals.
@Josh:
I am absolutely amazed that people disagree with this, but then again I guess since people are convinced that racism is 100% caused by ingrained feelings of hatred or superiority there is no way they would accept that people allow their life experiences to shape their views.
Chris
@MattR:
Sorry, but…
I was given the same color-blind upbringing as Josh. I too have seen black people acting in ways I didn’t like. Somehow, I’ve managed not to project those “experiences” over the black community as a whole. Why’s that?
No one’s asking society to go easy on black criminals. No one’s asking people not to judge black assholes just like any other assholes. But if you project your judgment of those criminals and assholes onto the entire community, you’ve got a problem, and yes, it is you who’ve got a problem, and not the black community.
If you don’t mind my borrowing your line, I am absolutely amazed that there are people who disagree with that.
TooManyJens
@Chris: Ditto to every goddamn word of this comment.
MattR
@Chris: Your comment is a complete non sequitor though I completely agree with it. I am not saying that every everyday person becomes bigoted by their experiences. Or that every bigot is that way due to their everyday experiences. But it is naive to think that there are zero people whose experiences with a subset of a particular minority/ethnic group results in bigotry against the entire group.
(EDIT: And to be clear, I am not saying that that bigotry is right, but it is real.)
jh
@MattR:
No one here is denying this.
What we are saying is that if you do that, it is YOUR fucking problem, not the people whom the person has chosen to be bigoted against.
Capice?
As for the basis of the anti-black racism in this hemisphere, I was talking about its origins. “Fear of the other” was the last thing on slaveowners minds when they decided to profit from the theft of human labor.
The fear came later.
MattR
@jh: And yet, when I say that I am surprised that people are disagreeing with a similar statement somebody decides that they need to take me to task and TooManyJens referred to the original argument as “completely fallacious”. So that sure sounds like there are in fact people denying that fact.
MattR
@MattR: oops. thought completely fallacious was a direct quote. she actually said she had been clear about why it was fallacious.