There are those who say that it makes sense for Republicans to crash the economy in order to beat Obama in 2012. Others say that it doesn’t make sense for Republican incumbents to crash the economy since they will be up for re-election themselves.
I think there’s tension within the Republican caucus about this kind of thing. A pragmatist like Boehner is probably thinking about helping Republican Congressmen keep their seats. A true believer in the People’s Glorious Conservative Revolution may believe that blowing up the economy to unseat Obama is worth it even if it means losing Republican seats in the House.
I think that’s one of the biggest differences between the two parties right now, the Palinese Liberation Army types have no real analog on the left (I know there’s lefty true believers out there but they are completely marginalized and probably much fewer in number anyway). Revolutionaries are willing to be a lot more ruthless and take a lot more risks. Scott Walker’s move to abolish collective bargaining for public employees in Wisconsin might end up being good for Republicans long-term, but it’s bad for Walker’s own re-election prospects, he may even get recalled now. Walker probably didn’t expect the public to react like it did, but he had to expect a reaction. The greater glory of the conservative movement demanded that he do it anyway.
cervantes
Don’t forget there is also a United States Senate. For the Grand Oligarchy Party, losing some House seats but gaining control of the Senate and White House is obviously a major plus.
jeffreyw
Rational self interest seems to have some glaring flaws as a governing philosophy.
Linda Featheringill
should be:
“I know there’re lefty true believers out there”
[now I can actually read the post :-)]
Brachiator
I think the economy may find a way to crash on its own, without any help from the Republicans.
But the Democrats seem oddly content to play defense. They don’t want to come up with an aggressive stimulus plan, even if the Republicans vote it down. Instead, they think that simply pointing the fingers at Republicans (even if justified) substitutes for an argument for voting for the Democrats.
And of course, there are those who say it doesn’t matter since the right “controls the narrative” anyway.
The Tea Party People have more energy, even though they are wrong about everything. The left just wants to talk about things and then lie down and take a nap.
Bill H.
It raises the whole “governing for reelection” versus “governing for the well being of the nation” thing.
Both parties govern for reelection, they just have different ideas as to what will accomplish that.
zmulls
Freaking Ellen Jamesians, that’s what they are….
Hedges Ahead
You know, I can’t recommend ‘Interface’ by Neal Stephenson and his uncle enough in cases like this. Long story short, shadowy international billionaires build a presidential candidate out of a governor recovering from a stroke using some pseudo-science in the form of a programmable and remotely controlled implant used in his recovery process. These billionaires are the people who actually buy the treasury bonds (Nat’l Debt) and therefore receive the payments on it (6% of GDP or so). The extreme costs of the project are reasonable compared to the loss of those interest payments, a consequence of the opposing candidate’s platform of defaulting on the debt, and declaring a fresh start.
So I guess what I’m saying, is don’t underestimate what those economic titans would do to maintain those 6% of GDP payments they get, real regular year-in, year-out. In any case, a very perceptive yarn given that it was written in 1994.
taylormattd
I think this is correct. Unfortunately, however, the allegedly “left” leaning equivalent of the Palinese Liberation Army can be found here on the blogs screaming. They comprise a majority of the commentariat at FDL and a large, vocal plurality at Daily Kos.
Linda Featheringill
Lefty True Believer here.
Good post, by the way. Comparing the Righties to revolutionaries is probably quite valid.
One of the major similarities between us, the Lefties, and the Righties is that we have no real political party and must use one of the existing ones as a vehicle to advance our agenda. Lefties usually associate with the Democratic Party and Righties seem to be falling in with the Republican Party.
The Righties are hijacking the Republican Party and taking control. I suspect that they don’t care if many of the Repubs currently in office lose elections are not. Probably a majority of Repubs aren’t Righties, anyway. Fugum.
The Lefties tried to stage various limited, nonviolent revolutions during the 20th century and failed every time. The Righties saw a vacuum in the Republican Party, rushed in, tried very hard to take over [with some success], and are now hellbent on their revolution. They also have been nonviolent.
The Lefties are not controlled by the Liberal Establishment. We know that Geitner, for instance, is not One of Us. Likewise, the Righties are not controlled by the Conservative Establishment.
Big Business probably likes to bask in its control of politics but I suspect that control of the Righties is an illusion.
Good post.
t
i doubt walker cares about re-election. he’s trying to climb the rightwing welfare ladder. his sole motivation is pleasing the higher ups there. he needs to parlay his job as governor of a large state into a lifetime gig as high up in the koch world as he can.
foosion
The GOP is a bought and paid for subsidiary of Wall St and big business, which do not want a default or a crashed economy. Hurting workers is fine. Hurting financial assets or corporate profits is not.
Tim, Interrupted
Doug, could you specify what you mean by “lefty true believers?”
Thank you.
The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik
The GOP has essentially created the ultimate win-win situation for them though.
If they win election, yay, more time to gild their pockets and cast Democrats as History’s Greatest Evil.
If they don’t…well, fuck, they’ve already passed laws that’ll take decades to overturn and undo, and the public will probably tell Democrats to piss off in 2 years and give the GOP unprecedented control again to further gild their pockets.
Look at the bullshit with the school internet sabotage the WI legislature just pulled. They’re going full scorched earth because they know they still have a great chance to win and stay in power in all corners of the country, and even if they lose power, they’ve seeded their way into fucking everyone but themselves over for the long term.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
the idea, i am guessing is that the gop, wants to convince dems, the media, anyone who might pay attention, that they don’t care either way.
its not that they suddenly hate money, and will destroy the economy for the sake of party purity, they just want it to seem like they don’t care.
its about leverage.
if they can ostensibly walk away, while the dems can’t, or know they will get their asses kicked by their own constituents, then the republicans will get to dictate the terms of negotiation, and thus the parameters for the inevitable compromise.
its the “make them think you are crazy” “we have outlawed russia forever and begin bombing in 5 minutes approach”.
Doug Harlan J
@Tim, Interrupted:
I can’t define it but I know it when I see it. Almost no one here qualifies.
LongHairedWeirdo
Walker wanted *some* backlash. If there’s angry people, you get to call what you do “courageous”. If there’s no one who’s angry, you don’t get to play victim.
But this post does illustrate part of the problem. The Republicans have been playing a game of extremes since 1994. They’ve been taking minor policy differences and making them huge. (OH NOES, a top tax rate of 39.6% versus 36%! It’s going to kill jobs and destroy the lifeblood of the American Economy!)
Now, the people who were just coming into political awareness in 1994 (18-22 year olds then, 35-42 year olds now) are now hitting the age when they can be moving on to higher office, and this kind of extreme rhetoric has always been how the game was played.
In 1994, people consciously decided to play the game; they knew that they were over-hyping things. Now, we have a generation of people who aren’t making that choice. They’re not changing from calling Democrats “tax-and-spenders” to “virtual socialists”; they’re starting with Democrats as America-hating socialists, and wondering why people won’t recognize how evil the Democrats are.
bob h
The Republicans may indeed believe in their economic dogmas, and may sincerely believe that they can turn things around if they can eject Obama. So, if you have to first trash the economy in the service of the long-term good, do it.
It seems the great struggle is now against fanaticism- fanatics in the mountains of Afghanistan/Pakistan, and fanatics in the Republican caucus.
gnomedad
Revolutionaries or not, I get the impression that many of them really believe that last November was the People’s Definitive Repudiation of Obamunism and embrace of Teahad, rather than a bunch of low-information voters throwing the bums out because the economy wasn’t fixed yet.
Citizen_X
My man Dre fuck you up in a minute
Fred
I think Gingrich shutting down Gov’t in 94 pretty conclusively shows there is NO upside for Repukes. But I also don’t expect them to learn from history either.
Oh, and don’t think for one second Repukes are brave or ruthless or hardcore or whatever. They are like a little dog who growls and barks like they are a big dog. But their bark is much worse than their bite.
One little talked about fact is that Conservatives are generally cowards. In war, in real life. That is probably why they have security issues and feel the strong need to have guns around. Because they are scared over everything and one way to cope with the constant fear is to have guns around. It’s just what fearful cowards do.
NR
@Brachiator: I suggest reading Zachary Goldfarb’s piece on Tim Geithner, as well as Paul Krguman’s comments on it. “Feckless” would be one word to describe this administration when it comes to economic policy.
Obama might as well start printing up bumper stickers for next year that say “Obama! The lesser of two evils!” because he seriously is not making any other argument for his re-election.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Doug Harlan J:
It’s pretty easy to recognize. It’s when someone takes a more leftward view than conventional wisdom allows on any particular issue.
aisce
@taylormattd:
do you hear yourself? oh no, they comprise a “vocal plurality” on dailykos, however will you go on?! where do you summon up the strength to deal with such a menace?
poor baby. tell me more about how
irrelevant, self-promoting bitch queenterrifying leftist oppressor jane fucking hamsher is ruining your life and all you hold dear?with their “vocal plurality” on dailykos. lol.
Brachiator
@Linda Featheringill:
Problem is that some lefties seem to be more interested in political purity and in hanging out with other members of their special club than in the pragmatics of political power. And maybe their are afraid of being disappointed. Either way, they glory in their political impotence.
Note that the conservative fundamentalists had a similar problem. The Tea Party People, not entirely the same as the fundies, got tired of being pure and taken for granted and decided to more directly sponsor candidates and run for office. Meanwhile, some (not all) lefties are stuck at crying how they are the base and should be given what they want, which pretty much guarantees their continued irrelevance.
Winston Smith
I think Walker expected the reaction to be, “Yes! Finally someone is taking down those horrible unions!”
These people have no idea what anyone below the “1%” line is thinking.
The Populist
Fact: If Obama loses, so do the GOP in the house. If the GOP thinks they will lose a few seats in the house, they need to pass me what they are smoking. The fact is more young people will be voting in this election. Some states have made it harder for them to vote, but many others haven’t.
Obama may lose depending on many factors but the GOP will lose even bigger because the same electorate voting in a GOP president will punish the GOP congress much the way they did the dems this past november. To an uninformed voter who isn’t very partisan, they will look at the economy and ask what Obama has done (duh, I know he’s done as much as he can do) THEN they will look at the incumbent congresscritter with an (R) next to their name and ask why they haven’t done anything either.
Double edged sword GOP. I still want to ask Mr. Boehner: Where are those jobs you promised us? One hopes the GOP nominee is so clueless (Romney may come off as Al Gore to the electorate and Obama squeezes by) that people give Obama one last shot.
I will say this…no jobs by election time and the GOP stand to see the tides turn back to the dems in the house.
gene108
@Brachiator:
Democrats are in a tougher position than Republicans, with regards to the House. They took control in 2006, by running people, who were electable in Republican leaning districts.
Those guys got their clocks cleaned in 2010, when “Democrats acted like Democrats” and passed PPACA, ARRA, etc.
Republicans have basically purged their party of folks, who need to straddle “both sides of the aisle” in order to be electable in Democratic districts or states.
Until some wealthy liberal billionaires (if the exist, since betting billions of dollars and being a DFH are bit contradictory) start up media enterprises to rival Fox News, The Washington Times, etc. to counter the right-wing noise machine, it will be hard to flip people’s attitudes about what works and doesn’t work for fixing the economy.
The Populist
@Winston Smith:
Let’s see what the recall elections hold. I fear that if turnout is paltry, the right will escape and thumb their nose at the people even more than they already do.
Whiskey Screams from a Guy With No Short-Term Memory
So…where are the revolutionaries on the left?
The Populist
Obama, Reid, Pelosi and any other Dem in office need to keep hammering these points:
Mr. Boehner, where are the jobs bills you promised?
How is laying off government employees and cutting services good for the economy?
Why is it that everytime we give tax cuts, per the GOP, the economy stagnates or gets worse?
They need to hammer home that the GOP gains in the house were a message to Dems from the electorate that they want to see movement on the economy. Not bills to cut taxes for rich people, gut laws for the environment, outlaw abortion, unions, birth control and any other morality play the GOP comes up with to make their villagers happy.
OzoneR
@Brachiator:
Why would they? So they can earn the scorn of their base for “failing to twist arms” or that “it wasn’t serious, it was only pandering” while the media blasts them for “being partisan”
Besides, it wouldn’t even get on the floor of the House anyway
The Populist
@Fred:
The GOP are no different than internet tough guys (aka trolls). They talk a good game but if you ever confront them, they collapse.
The Populist
@OzoneR:
This. If they spend time doing things they know the GOP will filibuster or stop cold in a straight vote, it won’t be viewed by anybody, outside of their base, as trying hard. The public doesn’t care about the filibuster (this has been shown time and again) to them they want results. The GOP are good at obfuscation to the point where they can blame the Dems for anything not happening. Not so for the Dems. This is why they need to improve the message.
Corner Stone
Talk about sublime. MSNBC just interviewed Rep Schwartz regarding the Weiner scandal.
Corner Stone
@The Populist: What message? That things are hard so why bother?
They’ve abandoned the argument.
NR
@OzoneR:
So you’re saying that the Democrats aren’t going to do anything about massive unemployment because they’re afraid that a few commenters on some blogs might say mean things about them.
Remind me again why we’re supposed to support these people?
Just Some Fuckhead
@Corner Stone:
Stay tuned for an interview with Johnson.
OzoneR
@The Populist:
won’t happen until what gene said upthread happens;
problem isn’t the message, follow the DCCC and DSCC and some good Democrats on Twitter, there’s some really good messaging on there, specific messaging to like Allen West voted again hurricane preparedness, but no one takes it and runs with it, because there is no one to do it
They have a national network and newspapers with big circulation, we have blogs no one reads, if even that.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Corner Stone:
Nothing is possible, unless it was tried- and then it either failed, backfired or no one cared.
NR
@The Populist: The problem is, way too many Democrats, including Obama himself and his top economic advisers, have bought into the GOP bullshit. Hence all the talk about cutting the deficit and no talk about jobs.
Check out this article, in particular this part here:
Even called for a stimulus? Crazy stuff, calling for a stimulus when unemployment is off the charts and even moderates are using the D-word. George W. Bush signed a stimulus package when unemployment was 4.7%.
The debate has shifted so far to the right that we’re reduced to celebrating the fact that the Democrats might not cut Medicare.
Davis X. Machina
The worse the better.
The GOP is the last major Leninist party in the parliamentary West.
OzoneR
@NR:
No, I’m saying the Democrats aren’t going to do anything about massive unemployment because they can’t and no one is going to give them credit for trying.
its pretty clear you aren’t going to, so why bother
Just Some Fuckhead
This is why you’d never actually elect someone like Ozone Nick. If his boat was sinking, he’d spite drown to prove nothing was possible.
OzoneR
@NR: Well, you wanted a reason to support those people…there’s your reason, Norman Dicks
The Populist
@Corner Stone: Maybe I am burned out on the lack of interest from regular folks who can’t fathom the shitstorm that the GOP is bringing on the middle class and poor.
I dunno. I think if they spend time introducing things that the GOP are just gonna shoot down, it’s a waste. They never message anything…the Dems do something and outside of the occasional liberal talk show host or mainstream news blog, you find nothing in the media.
It’s discouraging. I guess I am just lowering my expectations because nothing ever seems to gain traction for those of us tired of watching the right get away with things.
Corner Stone
@Just Some Fuckhead:
I keep waiting for for one of the female MSNBC anchors to say something like, “And what, if anything, did aides to Anthony Weiner know about this situation? Stay with us, we’re going to take a closer look at Weiner’s Staff when we come back.”
OzoneR
@The Populist:
They NEED a Fox News, without it, they can’t win in messaging. Liberals need a propaganda machine. This should be the number one priority of progressives
Corner Stone
“Nothing can be done!”
Davis X. Machina
@Just Some Fuckhead:
A thousand years from now, historians will argue whether it was Johnson’s Clinton, or Clinton’s Johnson, that was the proximate cause of the collapse of the American Republic.
Weiner’s Johnson won’t even be a footnote. Only grad students will know about it.
Just Some Fuckhead
@OzoneR:
We tried that, didn’t work, went bankrupt.
Nothing is possible.
OzoneR
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Try again.
gene108
@NR:
I disagree. I think there’s a lot of confusion about what can realistically get passed.
What’s the point of demanding another $800 billion round of stimulus spending, to just watch it die at the hands of House Republicans?
For the worse, Republicans in the 111th Congress decided to hold the economy and any thing positive that might be done by the Obama Administration and Congressional Democrats hostage, in order to regain the political advantage.
That lies squarely on the shoulders of the media. When the Republicans, in January and February of 2009 said the deficit was too high and we can’t afford a stimulus, very few people called them out for being the hypocrites they are on the issue of deficits.
Usually there was one question about, “hey, you guys doubled the debt, when you were in power,” and the Republican responds “I’m sorry, we learned our lesson, now we’re super serious about cutting the deficit and the debt no matter what…honest Injun and cross-my-heart and hope to die” and the media then decided to treat them as the most serious deficit cutters on the planet, because they said sorry for running the deficit up in the aughts.
As long as the MSM is feeling pressure from right-wing media outlets, whose patrons could care less about turning a profit, there won’t be any change to shift the conversation to the left.
Most journalists are basically English major types, who hated math and numbers.
When stories about the economy involve math and numbers, they are usually worthless to overcome their teenage angst about how uncool math is or how they can make it without math and cock up and understand what’s being said.
Just Some Fuckhead
@OzoneR:
Why, so people can say mean things about us? You know as well as anyone this is a center right country and nothing to the left of Lugar is possible.
Corner Stone
@The Populist:
This is a little contradictory to me. The whole point about digging in your heels and forcing a hard vote is to set or reinforce a narrative. That is your message.
It’s sad or humorous or both that the best fucking message the D’s have right now is on a vote the R’s willingly stepped up to the plate on! (the Ryan Plan vote).
And I’ve got money saying they’ll actively dilute that between now and 2012.
OzoneR
@Bill H.:
If these two things are mutually exclusive, your democracy isn’t working.
The Populist
@NR:
I’m with you on this. I see it happening too much. The right says the stimulus failed. Well it didn’t, but if they really want to go there, it “failed” because those tards don’t understand the importance that economists all agree upon: The government HAS TO STEP IN AND PICK UP THE ECONOMIC SLACK when demand in the private sector lags.
People can’t wake up to the fact that the USA is headed towards a true and powerful oligarchy not unlike the ones you see in places like Mexico, Pakistan and Russia. Places where people work for shit wages while the few rich folks buy up everything in site.
People I talk to tell me that the “American Dream” (don’t get me started on that — I own a business, I know it can happen, but it’s bull overall when the principles the right use to run things kills opportunity for all but a few) can happen. Wrong. I hear people tell me with the right opportunity…insert concept here…they will be okay. I ask how does this happen if you allow the right to keep putting the tax burden on the middle class? WE are the ones keeping this country going, not these so-called job creators. Small business is who hires (not the “small business” that the right trumps – Koch Industries, et al) yet they don’t need a fucking tax break…they need CUSTOMERS.
Who will buy the products when the right wants to kill reasonable safety nets, kill education and turn us into a shitcanned third world nation?
THIS is why I am resigned to shrugging my shoulders until I see real change from those who tell me they don’t really pay attention to this stuff.
RareSanity
DougJ,
Are you accusing the GOP of being “Gangsta, Gangstas”?
Because, given their racial makeup, they surely cannot be N.W.A.
I can’t be the first person to get the reference, can I?
NickM
Thanks for the NWA quote – half of one of my favorite lines.
Corner Stone
@gene108:
Remember that whole “Party of No” mantra? That seemed to be pretty effective, at least as far as I could tell.
There’s an old saying in TN, or at least it’s in TX. I guess they say it here too, “Put up or shut up”
That fits on a bumper sticker and people get it damn quick.
The Populist
@Corner Stone: We agree..they will dilute it.
I agree they should dig in their heels, I apologize if I seem a bit contradictory in my points. I am just tired of, for example, reading the new meme that says Obama will lose due to the economy. My smart brain asks…how’s that? He needs the GOP to pass bills to create jobs yet they won’t do shit.
The problem I have is that the GOP need to be taken to task for lying about jobs in the last election cycle. Where are the job bills? I could agree with the Obama economy meme if he had the Dems in charge of both the house and senate. I don’t buy it when I see the GOP do everything humanly possible to thwart the recovery with their b.s.
OzoneR
@Just Some Fuckhead:
of course its a center right country, because there’s no left wing propaganda machine to move it to the left, all people hear is right wing bullshit, they never hear from anyone on the left, and when they do, it’s because they were showing people pictures of his penis.
Fred
@The Populist: The GOP are cowards. That explains all their issues. Their delusions of brown people coming to get them. Illegal immigrants coming to get them. Terrorists coming to get them. Other countries coming to get them. Gov’t coming to get them
They live in constant fear because they are cowards. So they turn to the bible and guns for comfort. Oh and being stupid doesn’t help either.
The Populist
@Corner Stone:
True, if they put up, nothing gets done. People get frustrated and 2010 happens :(
I want the dems to dig in their heels but it never happens, so I get pessimistic and say what’s the point as well.
OzoneR
@The Populist:
Read between the lines; the meme is “Obama will lose due to the economy, which is bad because he keeps rejecting GOP plans to fix it.”
Yeah, I know there aren’t any, but that doesn’t matter.
The Populist
@Fred:
I do have faith in the coming generations. They seem colorblind, they seem to be a lot less materialistic about things than many in my generation (I am 42).
I hope I am not wrong or all will be lost and we will witness a real decline in America that I fear that the world will pass us by.
The Populist
@OzoneR:
And then he doesn’t break out the bully pulpit to dispute any of that…sigh.
OzoneR
@Fred:
If only someone would actually call them out on that
oh wait
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0408/Obama_on_smalltown_PA_Clinging_religion_guns_xenophobia.html
OzoneR
@The Populist:
there is no bully pulpit…even when he uses it, say when he gave the speech blasting Ryan, it was forgotten about 45 minutes later. NBC wouldn’t even cut out of a football game for him after a member of Congress was shot. Two networks bitched he was giving a prime time press conference and didn’t air it when he did, instead hearing RERUNS
There is no bully pulpit, it’s a stupid meme.
Dream On
@LongHairedWeirdo: Indeed. Now that is serious.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Davis X. Machina: Have any of the Dicks popped up yet? (Lugar, Cheney, Durbin,et al)
Just Some Fuckhead
@OzoneR:
Finally, something you and Nick disagree on. He was all the time saying Obama shoulda used the bully pulpit.
gene108
@The Populist:
East message to communicate, when unemployment is high and gas and food prices have skyrocketed again.
Involves numbers and a rudimentary grasp of basic Algebra to communicate it effectively, which are two things both the MSM and most Americans are not good at or want to understand.
@Corner Stone:
Democrats sort of did this in 2006 and 2008 and had some success with it, in painting Republicans as ineffectual.
When you become the Party in power, it’s your turn to “Put up or Shut Up” or at least that’s what the opposition Party can demand.
NR
@gene108:
The media is part of the problem, sure. But a bigger part is that Obama isn’t out there articulating an alternative to the Republican message. Again, read the article on Geithner. Obama’s own Treasury Secretary agrees with the Republicans that the deficit is the problem, not unemployment.
“We’ll be a little bit less Republican than the Republicans” is not exactly a winning message for 2012.
OzoneR
@NR:
Obama being “out there articulating” makes no different if no one in the media is talking about it. He gave a whole speech blasting Paul Ryan’s plan in April, it didn’t even make the headlines. He was in Ohio on Friday, it didn’t even make Page 2.
It is if voters are looking for “a little bit less Republican than the Republicans” in 2012. Hell, even Democrats want to see a reduction in the size of the government.
Fred
@OzoneR: Interesting link. I remember reading about that gun controversy smear that never took hold but never did pin point where it started.
I should also mention some other little known facts about Conservatives. Not only are they cowards but they are hypocrits. No surprise there but did you know it is a statistical fact that the redder the state the more they consume porn (per capita). The biggest consumer of porn (per capita) is…you guessed it….Utah! Yup so of course the whole family values thing starts to make sense. It’s compensation for living in denial about some basic facts about humans in general.
And since I am on the subject. Another little known fact (outside certain medical circles) is that most sexual deviants are conservative. Namely, pedophiles. That is a statistical fact! Google it. Again, it probably goes back to the whole living in denial thing by over compensating and/or hiding from their true selves.
OzoneR
@Fred: Harper Valley PTA?
gene108
@NR:
The carpet bombing of sound bites that drives American political discussion is almost always carried out by right-wingers, who are not the President.
You have politicians, talking-heads, etc. repeating over and over again about this or that is going to doom America.
There’s a limit to how much a President can push a message in this country right now. Bush, Jr. sure as hell didn’t get his hands dirty with a lot of the GOP dirty tricks (as far as we know). There were PAC’s, talking-heads, sympathetic journalists etc., who threw out bombs against his political enemies, as well as pushed his agenda, without question.
Team Democrats / Team Obama / Team Liberal just doesn’t have that sort of media presence.
It’s never the politicians, who are in the forefront of radical reforms. The nature of politics, in this country, is usually reactionary. It takes a firm movement to push for change and when that change becomes possible, the politicians jump on board and take it up to get over the “finish line”.
If you want a counter-narrative to Republicans, there needs to be a sustained push from liberals about their agenda.
Privatizing Social Security was a flop in 2005, yet Republicans and their backers are still at it and have expanded their sights to Medicare.
I just don’t see the Left continuously pushing issues like that anymore. They did once, which is why PPACA was passed and Democrats kept pushing for universal coverage.
On other issues, they just don’t have the same level of single minded unity the Republicans have had recently, with regards to deregulation, tax cuts, etc.
Doug Harlan J
@RareSanity: @NickM:
If I blog here long enough I will eventually make “life ain’t nothing but bitches and money” into a tag.
buckyblue
Fuck Walker. Just sayin’
Chris
@gnomedad:
I think what they really believed is that November 1980 was the People’s Definitive Repudiation of Soshulism (e.g. all the progress made during the 20th century) and anointing of Ronald Reagan as the new Founding Father.
Since 1980, the White House is theirs, and any Democrat with the temerity to live there is a usurper of the worst kind. Which largely explains their absolute freakouts post-1992 and 2008.
Marcellus Shale public dick.
@Citizen_X:
no, not this dre
El Cid
I’m a lefty true believer, but I can’t think of any realistic way that a default would lead to some sort of anti-capitalist movement or reform.
Other than just sort of hoping that once you toss all those dozens of dice up in the air that they’ll happen to roll the desired soshullisty numbers.
A lefty true believer is supposed to desire a path which he or she would be to be able to show actually, really could happen, and that the preparations are there, the forces are at least close to being ready (whatever they may be), the path’s clear, the likelihood of victory is strong and not microscopic, and the probable repercussions of failure or weakened victory are clear, open, and which people can decide are or aren’t worth the risks.
Though what I recall from publications from the Old Lefties was that they used to be filled with essays which would go through the horrific evils of some example or theme of capitalism and/or imperialism, but end every single one with the observation that a peoples’ revolution would finally be able to take care of this, and that this should definitely happen. Somehow.
Brachiator
@NR:
Thanks very much for the links.
I don’t view Obama as the lesser of two evils, since I view the Republicans as basically evil, period. And “feckless” or any variation ain’t even close to the same ballpark.
I think some of the bashing against Geitner, even from Krugman, is misguided (but not totally wrong). The bottom line for me is that economic policy is not tax policy or jobs policy. My problem continues to be with the fact that Treasury, and theoreticians and macro economic people, are too much in charge. So, for example, while I think that they should say how much a stimulus should be, I don’t expect them to say how it should be spent. Ditto for Krugman, who doesn’t move beyond conventional wisdom, though his analysis of the need and impact of stimulus is good.
Except for Elizabeth Warren, Obama doesn’t have much of an economic team outside of Treasury. I continue to be underwhelmed at the past efforts from Labor and Commerce. They also are not able to get much past Congress (not entirely their fault).
So yeah, we got problems. But also, I discount as useless the vast majority of criticism coming from Village journalists and pundits.
But, again, it is not about the lesser of two evils. It’s about halfway decent ideas vs stubborn bonehead ignorance which will destroy the economy.
WyldPirate
@Corner Stone:
Because Presidents aren’t involved in leadership of the country and don’t have a “bully pulpit”.
And my all-time favorite Opologist excuse–“he can’t do that because he’s black”.
Corner Stone
@Brachiator:
Does this admin even have Secretaries for Labor and Commerce?
And Warren is a sideshow joke at this point.
WyldPirate
@Brachiator:
Whoa. Stop. Your problem is identified.
You tried to do something you are incapable of.
The Goldman Sachs wonderboy Geithner is a total fuck-up and Obama fucked up for listening to him.
“Geithner finds his footing”
Corner Stone
@NR: Of course the messaging is “Lesser of two evils”.
Anyone who propagates that this isn’t the message isn’t paying attention.
“Well! Just think about what a President McCain would be doing now! Humph, rumph harumph! Or a VP Palin one heart beat away! Harumph, harumph!”
That is all we’ve heard here for 3 years now.
Chris
@El Cid:
At the moment, neither can I.
Paul Krugman, in “The Return of Depression Economics,” points out that the central fact of our era is the end of the Cold War, and subsequently, the way soshulism was discredited and capitalism vindicated. Granted, capitalism only survived by humanizing itself, addressing the problems soshulism was pressing it about, and de facto moving a little to the left.
But the point is, to a very large extent the left, and by extension the basic belief that you can use government to improve conditions for everyone, has had the wind taken out of its sails. I don’t know enough to say how to change it, but it’s hard to miss.
gene108
@Brachiator:
Funny thing about Geithner is people I know on Wall St. have the same view that Geithner’s feckless and wishy-washy, because he hasn’t stood up to Obama and the Democrats and pushed for things Wall Street wants done.
@WyldPirate:
President’s don’t usually push movements. FDR didn’t start the labor movement. It had been around for decades.
LBJ / Kennedy didn’t start the Civil Right’s movement.
Reagan didn’t think up supply-side economics on his own. The theoretical work had been done by Friedman, in the 1960’s and gained traction, as Kaynesian solutions to the stagflation of the 1970’s, didn’t produce results.
Presidents are able to put these agendas into action and translate larger public support for these agendas and make them part of the status quo.
Liberals have been pushing for universal health care coverage for a long, long time. Obama came in and got something done on it.
Other than health care, what major movements or policy ideas are coming from the Left?
Right now I can’t think of a huge out put of policy ideas from the Left, other than another stimulus bill (maybe).
Bender
OK, so now we know your brilliant conjecture on how the out-party controlling only one house of Congress might “crash the economy.” So now tell us why Obama and the Democrats actually did crash the economy.
Abolish? Really? Are you ignorant about the Wisconsin situation, or are you simply lying to the brain-dead Ball-Juicers about what Walker did? Wisconsin state employees still have the right to collectively bargain salaries. No one was moving to “abolish” public employees’ collective bargaining/bribery — unfortunately. Why would you have to lie, if you are on the side of the angels, Doug? Hmmmmm.
Well, that… and common sense… and any workable theory of government that isn’t attempting to turn a state into a bankrupt shithouse of Democratic organized crime (federal government workers can’t even collectively bargain pay and benefits). Sorry, but the corrupt Democrats in Congress have no Constitutional right to be bribed with my tax money. This guy explains it well:
That’s a system that makes sense to you, Doug? Or do you only support such blatant institutional corruption because it solely helps Your Corrupt Party?
boss bitch
I wonder how many people here complaining about Dem messaging are even signed up with the Dem party? or follow them on twitter? or get e-mails from OFA, the White House or anything related to the Dem party.
At anytime of the day Lib blogs are complaining about Dem messaging but the vast majority of what they have on the front page is panic attacks over what some Republicans are saying. I’ve seen Dems push back on a lot of noise but both the “liberal” and liberal media ignore it. Unless of course they want to mock Democrats.
I’d also like to add that Liberals should be the last to give advice on using the bully pulpit or messaging. You’d be running the party if you were any good at it.
WyldPirate
@gene108:
this is called leadership, gene108. It’s what we aren’t getting out of the current occupant in the White House.
Instead, we get excuses like this from Obama yesterday in Ohio:
Corner Stone
@boss bitch:
bitch, do you mean like the money party conservative Democrats?
Is that who you’re ok with running the party?
OzoneR
@WyldPirate:
no, it’s called a public movement. Obama was lead all he wants, if everyone’s just sitting around looking at people’s penises on the computer, it doesn’t do anything
Just Some Fuckhead
The good thing about Democratic messaging is using Republican memes from a few years ago is a lot cheaper than coming up with new stuff.
eemom
@Corner Stone:
you fucking LOVE the fact that her screen name has “bitch” in it, don’t you?
Corner Stone
@boss bitch: bitch, last time I checked, “Deficit! Deficit! Deficit!” wasn’t much of a winning Democratic message.
Usually the Democrats believe in the power of government to perform a good in peoples’ lives.
Of course, most Democrats also believe government can and does create jobs…
patrick II
@Brachiator:
DHJ
Brachiator
So, are we saying the Democrats know that stimulus would be good for the economy but are also tanking possible solutions to win an election — just in a more passive manner? After all, if they aren’t willing to risk losing an election to make arguments for actual economic improvement, how much better are they than the republicans?
If Obama doesn’t make these arguments because he want to win the election the economy isn’t going to get better by itself just because Obama is in office, it will continue to deteriorate.
Free marketers/libertarians believe in a natural economic equilibrium if government doesn’t interfere. That equilibrium does not exist naturally and we are currently refusing to do the things will build the economy again. I don’t think this is part of a natural business cycle, but an longer term economic deterioration. Obama cannot wait it out.
Walker sucks, but if he takes a short term election loss because he believes what he is doing is better in the longer term, no matter how misguided, I give him some points for taking hits we seem to be unwilling to take.
Chuck Butcher
Because I directly engage in Party politics I may see something that’s less obvious to non-participants. There is a closed loop within certain circles that self-reinforces view points. You would be amazed at the level of imaginary people who agree with a view point. It is how a 10% – 20% begin to think that there is broad support for a policy that is flatly offensive to a majority of voters.
When that circle includes something like FauxNews other realities are ignored and that minority sits around convincing itself that because they (and their media) all agree that there is some large agreement with them. They can easily grab onto a protest vote and imagine it as some broader ideological agreement. “look the voters finally woke up and agree”
You will find aspects of this within the left, but the left gets smacked down often enough to keep delusions a bit more in hand. Politics can get pretty strange when delusions rule. On the Democratic side (for example) you had hard core gun control people hijack the narrative and propose that they had really broad support. The problem was that the numbers didn’t back that claim and political realities being what they are drove voters they needed into the arms of the GOP on a civil liberties issue. (you can politically fuck with a civil liberty if you can point to demonized groups addressed – Mafia, Muslim Terrorists, etc and everybody else has noting to fear)
Cris (without an H)
mclaren
Chris
@Chuck Butcher:
Thanks for the insight, I can see how it’d be true.
But I add that Republicans have a somewhat easier time of it because their base is more predisposed to believe anything – either that or they have more effective ways to disseminate agitprop. When it’s something that directly and visibly affects them, like Medicare or Social Security, they’re more likely to sit up straight and realize they’re being played, but they have an incredibly high tolerance for any bullshit less important than that.
What I mean is, the closed loop in their case goes anywhere from 27 to 45%.
Brachiator
@Corner Stone:
I looked on a couple of milk cartons to double check. Gary Locke, recently nominated to be ambassador to the People’s Republic of China is at Commerce and Hilda Solis is at Labor. But everything I see indicates that these two are relatively powerless when it comes to helping to shape tax and job policy. Obama never found his Francis Perkins.
Sad but true, but Warren has been sidelined by intense unwavering opposition from the GOP.
@WyldPirate:
Once again, you entirely miss the point. Geithner could be the freaking Second Coming. Tax and job policy should not come out of Treasury. By training and temperament, these economists and their staffs are not equipped to craft or direct tax policy and job strategy.
WyldPirate
@OzoneR:
He isn’t doing a damn thing worth following which is why he is a shitty leader and why people pay no attention to his feckless adminstration.
Instead, he is lead around by corporate tools like Geithner, et al..
Nice Opology, though, OzoneR. I’ll give it a 7 out of 10.
WyldPirate
@OzoneR:
He isn’t doing a damn thing worth following which is why he is a shitty leader and why people pay no attention to his feckless adminstration.
Instead, he is lead around by corporate tools like Geithner, et al..
Nice Opology, though, OzoneR. I’ll give it a 7 out of 10.
ETA–Reposted because the “P” word landed the post in moderation.
The Populist
@boss bitch:
I follow all of it. Problem is I don’t see it spread the way one would hope.
I do see the young un’s reading and taking it to heart so I guess MAYBE it might help us in 2012.
Bender
Yeah, the rightblogs can’t get enough of this final-g-droppin’, folksy-“gonna”-usin’ pile of utter FAIL. Uhhh, President Genius, if some guy gets hit by a truck… the doctor doesn’t prescribe giving him cancer. He doesn’t then watch the patient deteriorate month after month, while prescribing MORE CANCER.
WyldPirate
@Brachiator:
You know something Brachiator, I’m growing tired of your arrogant, fuckwit pronouncements when you clearly don’t know WTF you are talking about.
this is from Timmeh’s very own website:
__
Put that in your pipe and puff on for a bit, smartass….
Brachiator
@gene108:
A number of the Democrats who got their clocks cleaned were Blue Dog Democrats who acted like Republicans, but who were still ousted by more pure, real Republicans.
People overstate the value of being a DFH and the power of the media. As an aside, while I do know people who are addicted to Fox News, I don’t think I have ever met a person who reads The Washington Times.
And if the right wing media is so powerful, how come Sarah Palin is not president? I mean, shouldn’t they have been able to get McCain elected, and then got him to retire early and yield to Caribou Barbie.
I don’t think the media is the Democrats’ biggest problem.
Just Some Fuckhead
@OzoneR:
It’s weird to hear you say that since yer always lobbying on the right side.
Brachiator
@WyldPirate:
Are you high? Quoting boilerplate doesn’t quite get it. But let’s refer to a bit of that boilerplate to try to clarify something for you.
Here is one of Treasury’s roles:
Advising is not the same as drafting legislation or even directly working with the White House and Congress on tax policy.
The president chooses his advisors and determines how much input they will have. Treasury and the presidents council of economic advisors have been filled to a great degree by economists and theoreticians who have had their hands full pulling off the economic bailouts.
But even before the Democrats lost control of the House, much of the detail in the president’s economic stimulus package was based on recommendations from Treasury and a re-tread of old proposals from Congressional Democrats.
There has been a historical trend, maybe, to depend more on “expert” economic advisors, but this is not law or statute. It’s presidential preference. Paul O’Neill, Dubya’s first Treasury Secretary, was ignored, belittled and ultimately pushed aside.
You really should dial down the hostility. It’s a waste of time, and just makes you look foolish.
Corner Stone
@Brachiator:
People here keep mentioning this person.
I think the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the public Hilda Solis ever actually existed.
WyldPirate
@Brachiator:
I knew you would come through with some nit-picking, 500+ word pile of senseless horseshit that moves the goal posts.
You moved from saying economists in the Treasury aren’t “cut out” for advising on policy and had no role in it. Geithner and Obama clearly think that at least one economist does.
You are an arrogant fuckwit that can’t admit when they are wrong–ever. Now you are simply making a fool of yourself.
You richly deserve the hostility as well. Probably need a good ass-whipping as well to help you gain a little humility.
moops
@gene108:
End the wars. This has been a long long long time issue for them.
Tax the rich. There. simple. fixes the deficit and doesn’t make unemployment worse. back to 1990 tax base at the very least.
If you haven’t heard of these two topics, then you haven’t been listening.
Corner Stone
@moops:
gene is more Right than Center-Right. He hasn’t been listening because he doesn’t care to.
What he would like is a laundry list of items the “left” is on board with so he can deride them as unpossible in today’s politically pragmatic environs.
OzoneR
@Corner Stone:
check again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPa8teSoLwg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtgQyYGtz50&feature=related
Just Some Fuckhead
@moops:
How do you propose to end the wars? You want Obama to just wave a magic wand, declare them over? Maybe use an executive order, all Republican-like?
You libtards keep thinking the President of the United States can do shit. He can’t. Only Congress can do shit. Only Congress can end wars.
The President is just a figurehead and a role model for children. Think of him as America’s Spokesmodel. The producers of the America show are the ones calling the shots.
OzoneR
@moops:
until recently, the left couldn’t agree that the War in Afghanistan is bad and needed to end, if they had, Obama wouldn’t have campaigned on increasing troops there.
Corner Stone
@OzoneR: Two links from Kathy Hochul?
Are you fucking serious Nick?
OzoneR
@Corner Stone: She’s a Democrat, and she won, and she talked about the deficit.
Deal with it
moops
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Are you really this stupid, or just trolling ? the libtard reference makes me think the latter.