The new Oakland Bay bridge is being pre-fabricated in China by workers earning $12 for a 16-hour day, working at times 7 days a week:
“I don’t think the U.S. fabrication industry could put a project like this together,” Brian A. Petersen, project director for the American Bridge/Fluor Enterprises joint venture, said in a telephone interview. “Most U.S. companies don’t have these types of warehouses, equipment or the cash flow. The Chinese load the ships, and it’s their ships that deliver to our piers.”
He’s absolutely right: As long as government — which, after all, builds all the bridges — can outsource major projects like this to the lowest-bidding, most exploitative employer in the entire world, we’re not going to have an local industry able to build new bridges. Such is the monumental, self-serving stupidity of our Galtian/governmental confluence.
chopper
god bless america.
Jamie
and the scary part is that the liberal pols from California outsourced this one
PreservedKillick
This is one of the most depressing articles I’ve read in years.
zzyzx
This is the one advantage to peak oil. If shipping starts to become more expensive again, all of the things we’ve outsourced will have to come back.
cleek
on the other hand, the bridge components will probably be contaminated with cadmium, lead and melamine.
amk
On the flip side, there is this:
And this
That global trade can of worms was opened by americans, remember ?
harlana
Republicans will not be satisfied until the entire American workforce is reduced to such levels. The dependence on consumerism would be the only deterrent, cuz I mean, how many flat-screen teevees can you buy at $12 a day and when would you have time to buy/watch one?
cathyx
@5. cleek-
I was thinking along similar lines that there would be structural defects, and wouldn’t withstand an earthquake.
bkny
see, that’s the plan… dismantle and outlaw the labor movement; ensure a significant chunk of the population is drowning in debt and desperate for a job — any job. that’s when you’ll see american industry revitalized — when americans will eagerly accept a $12/day for 16/hr days…
afterall, autoworkers in the south are working for $7/hr and change right now….
Judas Escargot
Wonder if the Chinese make guillotines?
MikeBoyScout
Ambridge, Pennsylvania where today about 16.4% of families and 17.8% of the population were below the poverty line,
cathyx
But what they fail to realize is that when that happens, we can’t afford to buy their products or pay as much in taxes.
Valdivia
@bkny–
yep. make the US into a developing country. Great plan! Men these republicans are total idiots.
Valdivia
OMG–Can we just shoot Maureen Dowd please? I could not even read the article, just saw her little intro to it and wanted to wash my eyes in lye.
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
So in order to save 5% on the job (400 million out of 7.2 billion) California outsourced the steel, fabrication, shop drawings, and part of the inspection work. In return they get a bridge built by tired workers.
How’s the quality of YOUR work after a 16-hour day? How about weeks of 16-hour days? How’s your productivity hold up?
More short-term thinking to save chump change.
steviez314
You mean cutting capital gains taxes for rich people so they can speculate on Greek credit default swaps won’t solve this problem? I’m shocked!!
Joel
We really are in the final chapter of Animal Farm, aren’t we?
Chris
@ harlana –
Everybody else is trying to get OUT of the third-world abject-grinding-poverty situation. We’re the only schmucks trying to get in. BACK in, no less.
Brian R.
Well, it’s not like there’s an existing example of a massive government-built bridge in the area that could’ve served as a model for how to do it differently.
Cat Lady
I’m sure China has our best interests at heart when building essential American infrastructure. They take such great pains with their own.
amk
China is now where america was during those robber-baron days of labor exploitation. But their labor is already simmering and the gobinment controlling it by brute force. Of course, their huge population pool doesn’t help much in labor solidarity.
Flugelhorn
What does $12 USD buy in China, I wonder…
Elizabelle
Joel — loved your comment 17.
This story is simple enough to go viral, isn’t it?
Could we and others forward it as much as we can and demand that the US fund and reopen some heavy industrial plants in this country?
I’d pay bonds for that. Maybe a lot of people would.
cyd
Don’t begrudge the Chinese those jobs. They are poorer, and need the money more.
Trurl
Expect the “unions make us uncompetitive on the global stage” rhetoric to be applied to the minimum wage next.
OzoneR
That’s ok, cause the politicians who put them there oppose abortion and teh gay, so its a win-win in their eyes.
Amanda in the South Bay
I think what we need are more white collar jobs out-so that people realize this isn’t just a blue collar thing.
What about IT-either those legions of Chinese and Indian programmers on visas here are bomb, or they can’t program their way out of a wet paper bag.
Odie Hugh Manatee
Anyone in the automotive aftermarket can vouch for the quality of Chinese steel; there is no quality to Chinese steel, it’s crap. While it is getting better than it used to be, it’s still crap. Want a strong crankshaft? Don’t buy a Chinese-made one. Ten years ago, nearly two out of three Chinese crankshafts were flawed and doomed to fail. Now it’s one out of three will fail. The bridge will be cheap, both cost-wise and quality-wise. Chinese is as cheap as it gets. We’re going to get what we paid for though!
What a dumb fucking nation we’ve become.
Chris
@ amk –
I suspect more like Bismarkian Germany. If they’re smart, the CCP will slowly give in on the welfare state if only to forestall the threat of disorder and revolt (same as Bismarck with the original welfare state).
Suffern ACE
@25 – that is what industry groups have always meant by “government regulations.”
Observer
California is the biggest “blue” state and the legislature is majority Dem but yet there was no organized political resistance to this massive jobs giveaway.
It puts the lie to the line about how, at the national level, Obama has been “forced” by the Repub controlled House to cut spending and all these other things you folks like to blame Republicans on. Did the Dem state House “force” the hapless lame duck Governator to back down? Nope. Did the newly minted Dem Governor immediately come in and cancel the contract? Nope.
When someone like me says Dems don’t stand for anything this is exactly what they mean. Everywhere across the country Dems do not have a single redeeming economic value that people can vote them in to do and know that they will stand firm and get the job done.
They have no values whatsoever except hunting for campaign contributions. Dem pols everywhere are all fakers. Forget progressive, forget “liberal”. They’re just fakers who have the same agenda as the Republicans but they believe in abortion and/or gay marriage so they con you every single time. And a lot of you folks here are suckers for believing in any of them.
But Obama will carry California easily in 2012 so it’s all okay I guess.
Blue state, my ass. There is no such thing as blue state, they’re all red.
Amanda in the South Bay
@Observer
Well, what do you expect. In my neck of the woods, the average Dem/left leaning voter is probably a socially liberal IT worker who makes high 5/low 6 figure salaries. What do they know about blue collar union jobs being outsourced?
For too many people, the sheer existence of such jobs…its like their from an alternate universe.
PeakVT
But what they fail to realize is that when that happens, we can’t afford to buy their products or pay as much in taxes.
Our Galtian Overlords don’t look that far into the future. They’re focused on how to strip mine the American economy today.
chopper
clearly, this is about obama.
PurpleGirl
Flugelhorn – June 26, 2011 | 10:35 am · Link
What does $12 USD buy in China, I wonder…
The problem is that the 1% want US (you and me) to make that $12 a day and here it won’t buy very much. Do you think your landlord will reduce your rent? (Or if you own a house, will the price/mortgage be reduced?) Will your grocery store reduce its prices? Will Ford or GM reduce the price of cars? Or Exxon Mobile reduce the price of gas?
The 1% are ignoring part of Henry Ford’s business philosophy — pay your workers more and they can afford to buy what they make.
jp7505a
Which of course begs the question – If American companies could build the original Bay bridge, why not this one?
Mr Stagger Lee
Up here in Pacific NW, the new Tacoma Narrows Bridge is made mostly of steel from Korea, as well as the cranes at the port of Tacoma. Boy don’t you love our country!!! OOOHHHH SAY CAN AYN RAND SEEEEE!!!!!
stuckinred
Stop with the fucking “overlords” and “masters” , jesus.
Riggsveda
The tell in that article is here:
“Most U.S. companies don’t have these types of warehouses, equipment or the cash flow.”
That means that some US companies do. The reason China is able to exploit this situation is that, in essence, it is the Chinese government that backs and subsidizes the industries that undercut our own. If our own government tried doing this, instead of steering all the money and policy favoritism to the FIRE sector, we might actually do something about unemployment. But that would be “socialism”. So much better to let our working class be dragged to the bottom of the ladder, where “competition” really means coolie labor. When your competition is basically peonage labor like China’s, you next step is finding people who will work for food. I see our labor’s future sitting by the median strip, carrying a sign.
Suffern ACE
@17 Joel – Great if you’re a pig. Sucks if you’re a horse.
@ 31 Observer – Pretty much. This is the moderate democrat vision as much as a right wing vision. Not much difference in vision.
@27 Amanda – those H1Bs are overwhelmingly young and overwhelmingly male. Cheap and won’t have that “health issue” that afflicts women around child-bearing age.
Chris
@ Observer –
The Democrats are what they were in the Gilded Age, a catch-all party for Not-Republican voters. I don’t “believe” in them in the way I might have had I been alive in the 1930s, and I don’t expect much from them other than being less-bad than the Repubs – lesser of two evils and all that.
scott (the other one)
That’s what I don’t understand: when I was in school, Ford’s philosophy was taught in multiple classes over several years, from grade school to high school, and held up as a stroke of genius. Which is why the current (post-Reagan) philosophy has always struck me as so obviously suicidal for us as a nation, long-term. When did the Ford story stop getting drilled into kids?
Montysano
@ stuckinred
You keep harping on these terms (which IMHO seem completely appropriate). With what would you replace them?
harlana
Amanda in the South Bay: Not sure I understand because I thot many of those jobs are being outsourced already or filled with H1B workers. I used to work in a software development firm and the place was filled with foreign nationals from Asia and India to do a lot of the grunt work for cheaps.
wrb
@cathyx
Doesn’t matter. Their money is already in the Asian markets and in Costa Rica a houseboy is cheap.
PurpleGirl
scott (the other one) — I think the current post-Reagan crop of 1%ers is greedier than Henry Ford and absolutely convinced that they deserve absolutely everything. And since it is so much easier to travel the world now, they could live anywhere. They aren’t tied as the rest of us are to one country/place.
(Yes, I know lots of people say we should all move to a better place but that isn’t practical for everyone. Do you want to move to China and make $12 a day? Do they even hire foreign workers? How many teachers of English does Japan need? To move to Italy and live and work there, you have to speak Italian.)
Dan
Who in American public life could get away with saying, essentially, “Americans can’t build a bridge.”
Jennifer
Well, I guess this helps put the kibosh on that notion that we can revive our economy by rebuilding our infrastructure.
Not so much, it happens, when those elected to serve us outsource all the jobs for rebuilding it.
cleek
always is
Jennifer
Alternately, who could have guessed that Bill Clinton’s “Bridge to the 21st Century” would be built in China with cheap labor and no regulations for quality?
Citizen_X
amk @ 6:
But hey, that would’ve cost Californians more in taxes, right? Shrinking big government!
Which brings me to Observer @ 31:
I seem to remember something about that state being in dire financial straits, the worst in the country. And which political party was responsible for that situation?
For that matter, which state’s citizens started the whole tax revolt movement, which spread across the whole country, and led to California’s problems? California’s! And now, about half the country–not just the 27 percenters–can be convinced to go along with the whole taxed-enough-already bullshit.
So you show ’em how it’s done, tough guy. You go to California and try to get elected on a platform of “Screw the recession and budget crisis, let’s raise your taxes so we can give jobs to guys in Pennsylvania!”
It needs to be done federally, instead. But baby steps by Obama in that direction, and BOOM! Tea Partiers, tax revolters, and we find ourselves in this situation. It’s a long-term problem, brought about by decades of Koch-style propaganda, helped along by all-American racism and tribalism. I’m not sure how to get out of it, but I don’t see shit from the whiners about how to get it done.
Hal
I was just listening to a rebuttle to President Obama’s weekly address on the Economy from a Republican Congresswoman from NC, who said in order to get the economy back on a roll we needed…less regulation. These people just don’t stop. Isn’t less regulation part of the reason the economy is in the crapper now?
She also said Dems control Washington, because apparently Republicans don’t have control of the House.
burnspbesq
Good grief. I know all of you aren’t fucking morons, so why is it that no one is making the connection between cost savings and lower taxes?
Simply astonishing.
GregB
Ayn Rand is the kindest, warmest most wonderful human being I have ever known.
urizon
Way to take money out of the local economy, dipshits. And think how proud future generations will be, knowing that our leadership saved a few bucks by having near-slaves build this
ironiciconic structure. Brings a tear to my eye just thinking about it.Nylund
Don’t worry, eventually we’ll become the laboring class for the Chinese and it’ll all even out.
alwhite
@27 Amanda – I am not sure what you are talking about. I am one of the people you describe & my work & income have been greatly affected by the rush to cheap labor overseas. My previous gig was to design a program and then train & oversee my Indian replacements. That is not an uncommon story in IT today.
Valdivia
I also love how Republicans keep pointing to China as a miracle of growth when the only reason they are growing as they are is because they are at the cusp of their industrialization (always huge growth rates at that point) *and* because as a non democratic country they can order whatever they want done without pesky rights for citizens.
Also, too. It does amaze me, coming from a developing country, that no one is calling these assholes out on the fact that their prescriptions for faster growth are exactly what developing countries try when they want to become DEVELOPED, with better salaries, more education, etc as a goal. And here we are trying to undo development for the sake of lower taxes and the result is less education, less infrastructure, less modernity. Fucking idiots.
Chris
@ urizon –
Cheer up. If Republicans have their way in the education sector, future generations’ll never know enough to blame us. They’ll grow up learning that theirs is the best of all possible worlds, that FDR caused the Great Depression with his welfare state, and that anything wrong with the economy now is just the aftereffects of that.
Chris
@ Valdivia – they’re also ignoring the self-evident fact that the Chinese government plays a not-inconsiderable role in industrialization (just like ours did).
Timothy Trollenschlongen (formerly Tim, Interrupted)
Normally, I go out of my way to avoid Dowd. Haven’t read her in months.
As a result of your comment though, I headed on over to see what was up. As usual, much of today’s column is couched in oh so precious, I’m trying so hard to be clever language, but her point, that Obama plays both sides of almost every issue, is spot on.
Citizen_X
@ burnspbesq: I made the connection But that’s why there’s gotta be federal reconstruction efforts, so that the argument can be, “Your federal taxes are paying for the re-building the economy of Pennsylvania and Michigan and South Carolina, helping your fellow Americans. If we let all states choose foreign sources to cut costs, it’ll be one big race to the bottom.”
Obama and the Dems made some efforts to get those arguments across a couple of years ago, and got their asses kicked for their efforts. Ah, but didn’t they know: more bully-pulpiting would have wiped out years of Randian propaganda, overnight!
Valdivia
@ Chris
exactly. It really is like these guys have zero understanding of actual stages of development etc. I mean even conservative economists of yesteryear, while I loathed their prescriptions, at least they understood the difference between a country that is in the process of industrializing and one that already had.
amk
Too much automation, too many people, too few jobs – Coming decades are sure gonna be fun.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@amk
It took the Black Plague to balance that equation and end the greatest depression in recorded history.
Omnes Omnibus
No, it isn’t.
chopper
@Jennifer:
everyone?
amk
@ 64 – Guess there is always the biological weapons option.
Montysano
@ amk
I for one look forward to a cushy position with the Reeks And Wrecks.
Betty
Where I live the Chinese are taking om big projects and doing a crappy job- much oversight is needed- lots of opportunity for shortcuts, corruption, etc.
chopper
@Omnes Omnibus:
i, for one, am glad that the rich entitled dysphoric white pundit class has really weighed in on the issue. i’m sure MoDo and Bobo are sitting in a drawing room somewhere comparing notes over $20 martinis. is obama a failure due to his hawthornesque dualism or his lack of hamiltonian greatness?
Trurl
[[ But for the president, “the fierce urgency of now” applies only to getting checks from the gay community, not getting up to speed with all the Americans who think it’s time for gay marriage. ]]
History will note that as people danced in the streets outside Stonewall, Barack Obama publicly maintained his opposition to SSM.
And, unlike the apologists here, history will not grade him on a curve.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
[email protected]
Yeah, there’s that, or Zero Population Growth solutions…Or there’s the path of slowing down certain technological advances that cost jobs…Or there’s the path of sacrificing capitalism for the good of humanity….
Petorado
American exceptionalism now has a binary definition when it suits industry: we’re an exceptionally strong and brave nation when it comes to the need for maintaining large military contracts, and when it it suits them every other nation on the world can build things –except us. Fascinating.
chopper
@trurl:
no president is graded on a curve. that’s why everyone hates lincoln because of his belief in the superiority of the white race.
Hal
The title is horribly bad:
Really Maureen? I just imagine her sitting in her office typing it out, and laughing hysterically at her cleverness.
She gives (IMO undeserving) credit on Gay Marriage to Dick Cheney, and (deservingly) Ted Olson, who she declares are old, white conservatives. She quotes Chris Christie, and of course; bashes the Clintons a little.
All in the name of progressivism. Modo is sad, so very, very sad.
chopper
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
ZPG does nothing for the overpopulation problem we already have.
climate’s going haywire, cheap energy is running out, too many people chasing after too little food. it’s a dilly of a pickle.
Trurl
Hillary’s “You’re for us or against us” moment the other day reminds us why they so richly deserve it.
Corner Stone
@Betty
I’ve been telling people this for years, except related to outsourcing to India.
Management green lights a project at $X cost but never factors in the added overhead for intensive supervision needed, back end re-writes aka do-overs, etc.
Because Management gets their bonus on the project being greenlighted at $X, that’s what they collect on.
The company itself is saving almost nothing, and in some cases is losing customers due to QC overruns.
Capitalism.
amk
@ 72 Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again
Slowing down the advancement of technology ? Thou shall be hanged in the morning for blasphemy. You Luddite.
Origuy
The contract was won in 2006. Arnold Schwarzenegger was governor then. What party was he in?
Valdivia
@ 75 Hal
aside from the fact that her analysis is utterly wrong, the language she uses is utterly offensive. She has been trying to make Obama effeminate for how many years now? It never took but she keeps pimping it…
LongHairedWeirdo
This has been something that’s been bugging me.
ECON 101 – trade is good for the economy, because people will only buy when there’s a trade benefit. It’s true; with trade, there are always more goods or services (or both) than without.
But ECON 101 is concerned with one thing, and one thing only: the amount of money.
If re-instituting slavery would improve the economy, ECON 101 would say “Yeah, go ahead”. Case in point: we’ve outsourced slavery to China.
Now, on the one hand, more goods and services flowing can be required. The goods and services are the size of the pie; a bigger pie is required if everyone’s supposed to get a bigger piece.
But on the other hand, we’re not living in the world where more pie means everyone, or even most, are getting more.
ECON 101 says “outsource the bridge to China if it’s cheaper” but no one’s paying attention to the other questions – is it right, even if it *is* cheaper and beneficial to the big money boys?
This might be the ultimate leftover from the Reagan era; the idea that what’s good for the economy is ipso facto good for America.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
[email protected]
Someone had to say it. :D
Seriously, though, I’m no Luddite. I don’t think technology is a bad thing at all. I’m not so sure that the rate at which we advance is a good thing. And I don’t think that we’re well-equipped with the wisdom needed to digest The Fruit of The Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Daulnay
You would think that free trade would iron all these problems out, and give us a booming economy while the Chinese economy was also booming. That, after all, was the promise given by Bill Clinton, Robert Rubin, Larry Summers, et al. The conservative Democrats of the DLC pushed free trade as hard as any Republican, and so did most economists.
But free trade doesn’t work if one government keeps its thumb on the scales, and the other lets it. The Chinese government has, by keeping the Chinese renminbi much lower than it would naturally be. It’s the modern equivalent of the beggar-thy-neighbor policies of the Great Depression. If the renminbi was allowed to rise to its natural level, those 12-dollar-a-day workers would cost much more. It’s hard to say exactly where it would end up, but purchasing power parity measures suggest that it is 30-50% undervalued. So that 12-dollar-a-day measure would be 24 dollars a day if the Chinese government played fair.
PurpleGirl
Re: Zero Population Growth
Another idea from the late 1960s and 1970s (along with pollution control and environmentalism, etc.) that if we had embraced would have greatly curtailed the problems we face today.
Ruckus
The reason you are wondering why no on seemed to learn from Ford is that very few did, even in his time. It begs the question, which boss has ever wanted to pay higher wages? Even if it was in their best interest? Once again very few. And the MBA (management by asshole) degree for the most part is about lowering and controlling costs, not improving products, services, living conditions.
I think we are leaving out a large part of the equation here. How do the rich separate themselves from the mainstream population? Bigger house? Na we have those, 3500-5000sq ft for 2. Bigger/better/more expensive cars? Seen any big Mercedes AMG/BMW M/Lexus/Range Rovers lately? I see plenty every day. Wealth prestige was getting harder to lord over others. Now that it is getting harder to acquire, being rich can be more obvious. Owning or at least controlling peoples lives is probably the highest form of wealth prestige. And that’s where we are now.
amk
@ 83 Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
Just ribbing ya. We have all been caught in this rat race for the latest gizmos, which really doesn’t do a shite in improving anything in your life. Fucking apple makes gazillions of dollars off all faddy things on the backs of slave labor and then wants fucking tax breaks to bring in all that blood money back into the country.
ericblair
I work for a Big Gummint Contractor, which means US citizenship requirements so I don’t have to deal with this directly. However, I get enough intell on commercial projects about this. The biggest problem with this outsourcing (besides the whole good-for-America deal) is that the whole system is designed to be cheap and look good on Powerpoint, not to be effective and high quality. It’s a hell of a challenge to properly communicate customer requirements halfway around the planet and maintain proper quality control. Since this is always meant to be done on the cheap, nobody plusses up their systems engineering to deal with this. You end up with a bunch of late crap that the customers don’t want.
The other issue is that, at least for India, there’s a layer of technical talent that makes your average MIT or Stanford grad look like a high school dropout, but once you mine through those (now expensive) people you’re dealing with a bunch of guys who graduated from the equivalent of Jim’s IT College and Bait Shop, who have no idea what they’re doing.
For giggles, ask your average conservative what the purpose of the economy is. Admire the confused and angry look. You might as well ask a fundie what the purpose of God is, because it’s essentially the same heretical question to them.
Ruckus
Corner Stone
I owned a manufacturing business from the mid 60s till the mid 90s. Several of our customers, big consumer product companies, outsourced all manufacturing to Taiwan/China. They learned the hard way that they had to install people whose job it was to oversee every step of the process. Otherwise the projects were just crap. They got what they paid for. Some even tried to bring the work back but by then that segment of US manufacturing had shrunk. How different is that in the bridge building labor force here? Or the heavy steel industry? Look at ship building over the last 40 yrs if you want to see how manufacturing is working here.
Ghanima Atreides
its just the Freed™ Market in action.
you support it too, mistermix. You approvingly link EDK and Yglesias.
sparky
this is a silly notion. the american steel industry collapsed in the 1970s. that collapse was the result of several developments, and the necessary ingredient of greed was, as always, one of them. that said, blaming the current situation on the ugly Rand fad makes about as much sense as blaming Obama for everything.
edit: and of course if the steel was made in the US working conditions would be just peachy. it’s not as if the US ever had a steel strike or anything.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
[email protected]
See, that’s the kind of technological advance with which I’ve got no problem. It’s the technology which displaces workers that bothers me…At least in a culture in which food is kept under lock and key, and one’s got to come up with a way for paying for someone to use the key for one to get fed.
Corner Stone
@ericblair
The people who leave MIT people spinning are taking equity stakes in companies. They are not the ones anyone is dealing with in outsourcing issues.
As for the rest, let’s take Manila, a source I am also familiar with.
The local “talent pool” that can speak English is a small percentage, and they job hop like crazy. The main issue for Western MNC’s trying to outsource, or offshore as euphemism suggests, is that every 6 months you have roughly 66% turnover. They will leave your job for another one for $.50 more per hour. So not only are you constantly retraining the offshored workforce, you are paying more and more for the evolving incoming batches.
I could go on and on about this.
Cain
@alwhite
This. My employer is rapidly moving jobs to Israel, India, and Malaysia as that is where all the growth is. But frankly, I don’t see how China can be that much of a growth market. If people are working 12 hour days, for low wages they won’t have time to date, won’t have time to enjoy any pursuit… so what products can you sell them? The only thing you can sell is to sell to businesses. But the consumer market is fucked in China.
Hell these people don’t even have time to date. India on the toher hand will probably spend like water. Spoiled brats. :-) Indian workers are kind of lazy IMHO. They’ll only do exactly what you tell them and they don’t think dynamically. (I say that as an indian) If I started a company in India, I would hire American workers and pay them well enough to live like kings.. because I know the work I’ll get on them would be awesome. I woulds screw the other Indian companies over, they’d be forced to hire american workers.. haha.
Elizabelle
Meanwhile, when the president does tour clean technology upstarts, The Washington Post throws up a specious article alleging Obama does so for political reasons, and on behalf of political contributors.
Obama’s focus on visiting clean-tech companies raises questions
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obamas-focus-on-visiting-clean-tech-companies-raises-questions/2011/06/24/AGSFu9kH_story.html
And the very first quote for attribution is from the Exec VP of the American Petroleum Institute.
Story built on innuendo. Focuses first on Energy Dept’s selection of Solyndra (solar panel manufacturer) for a multi-million dollar grant.
Two financial analysts are quoted as saying the administration’s selection was risky because, per WaPost:
So let’s just fold up and go home, right?
Corner Stone
@Ruckus
I did some work for a company that outsourced all their supply chain to China. Essentially it was all neoprene products, used in different consumable items. Think promotional branded beer coozies and other neoprene novelty items.
Well, long story short, Bob’s your Uncle, the Chinese company had about 3 times the failure (defect) rate of any US state side supplier they had ever contracted with. When they stopped traveling back and forth to 24/7 supervise the design train and manufacturing process they tried to get a contract back in the states. And, nobody was home.
amk
@ 94 Cain
yeah, that’s why China overtook amurika as no. one market for GM, Ford et. al. That’s why high-end to low-end boutiques, supermarkets etc. are rushing head over heels to open their stores there. You should visit china some time (or at least read up on them) before you spout such nonsense.
Corner Stone
@Cain
There was a series on this on TV not too many years ago. American workers moving to India I mean. And living very well, from what they were reporting. I don’t remember all the details, so I could be misremembering. But I seem to recall they were thriving in an upper middle class environment where everyone seemed to have consumer dollars to burn.
Cain
@Cornerstone
Indeed. (I got sick of saying ‘this’) My sister-in-law’s brother used to work for one of these out sourcing firms. From what he describes it seems like they are just winging it. They work like dogs too. Learning new stuff in days. I’m a little down on Indian labor, unfortunately.
Corner Stone
Regarding the offshore workers not thinking dynamically, this is true IMO.
But it’s good and bad. IME, they will absolutely follow your A,B,C,D service level agreement you’ve trained them on. But they can’t see that maybe C is the right answer in this circumstance. Which is good and bad. I certainly don’t want someone half a world a way to start innovating a process. And for damn sure I don’t want them guessing when they are talking to my top line productivity people.
Cain
@97
It’s called Balloon-Juice for are reason. And perhaps my information is now stale. But so what if they opening stores and super markets and what not? Maybe that’s all great in the big cities, but if your average worker is working 12 hours a day for seven days I don’t see how they have time to visit any of those places. What was the average sales for those areas?
There was a show on public television about how middle class Chinese people were so busy that they didn’t have time to date and were doing speed dating or they couldn’t take care of their children and had to get nannies or their parents to raise them.
My point is that I don’t think it is going to be as a big of a market as the U.S until labor changes.
Cain
@Cornerstone
OH yeah, I recall that. I was kind of embarrassed. I refused to watch the show as I thought it might trump up indian stereotypes. I felt bad for any Indian kid who was going to school who might get teased because of that show. When I was in school.. when Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom came out I had to put up with a bunch of shit for weeks.
Corner Stone
It’s like the whole sheetrock from China story writ large.
We’re all going to be fucked shortly when everything we’ve ever bought from China turns into an evil little Transformer and tries to kill us.
Yutsano
It is a big market in so much as what has diffused to the Chinese middle class, which between that and the super wealthy in China is about 300 million. China has a much bigger problm they need to address also: the 800+ million of their citizens living in abject poverty. Wealth is very unevenly distributed in China, and the peasants are becoming less and less easy to buy off. This is as much an issue in India as well, with similar political and economic effects. But at least India is trying to address the income disparity as well as it can, with mixed results. China’s attempts so far have been rather half-hearted, so it’s going with loyalty to the state and cultural shame techniques.
amk
@101 – As I said, you need to read up more about China, its labor, its money (for fuck’ sake they got the amurika by their collective scrotums) and its culture. And your understanding of India too seems to be wacky even for BJ.
Ruckus
sparky
Rand is the talisman for the conservative, head in the sand movement. A hat rack to hang an idiotic, selfish, juvenile life style on. It existed before the author/books but with less of a following of the gullible.
The loss of this country’s soul, it’s purpose, and it’s ability to expand on those things has been going on for decades, maybe even since day one. The loss of much of our mfg power is just part of a package of ideals that true conservatives have been trying to implement for, well ever. The problem is they are succeeding right now and everyone else is either not convinced there is a problem or has little power to change that.
trollhattan
@31 Observer
Ahem:
Pesky facty facts. Explain, if you will, what Gov. Brown, inaugurated in January, could have done with contracts inked by a regional authority years earlier?
Comrade Kevin
@Amanda in the South Bay:
They know all about their own jobs being outsourced to India, China and Vietnam. It’s why I am unemployed. The last company I worked for has shipped at least 10,000 IT jobs overseas in the last three years.
Ghanima Atreides
Ayn Rand kills braincells. That explains both conservative and libertarian pundits.
mem from somerville
Wow, every day I see something that Albert Brooks’ book 2030 had predicted is coming our way. He was dead on with his anticipation of the reality-tv world we find ourselves in, and I was eager to see him think 2030 though too.
I enjoyed the book, but this was one of the pieces he played out, and there was a sad awareness when I saw that story today.
Bubblegum Tate
Boy, I can’t wait to drive across that pile of low bids!
uptown
Up here in the great northwest, Washington only buys ferries that are built in this state. Costs more, but it keeps our ship yards going and the money stays in the state.
Yutsano
Damn us for being a bunch of sociallists. Can we haz Canada naow?
uptown
@115
BC Ferries (Canada) bought their last few ferries from overseas. The Flensburger Schiffbau-Gesellschaft shipyard in Flensburg, Germany to be exact.
Mogden
As a taxpayer I’m glad to have the bridge produced cheaply, so that I can keep my money in my pocket. Enough of it is being taken already to pay for overpriced teachers, firemen, and prison guards.
Yutsano
Sigh. This is why we can’t have nice things. I hope you avoid driving on public roads and calling police when there’s a crime too. Cause, you know, that’s just money stolen right out of your pocket and all.
henqiguai
Mogden #117
So, anyone; snark, troll, or plain stupid ?
Yutsano
Troll. He’s spread his libertarian bullshit here before.
Corner Stone
Or having items delivered to your home, or going to the grocery store and not getting killed, or watching local TV shows, or…or…
Parasite.
Ruckus
Maybe he’ll be under the bridge when it fails. Isn’t that where trolls live?
Cain
@Cornerstone
That’s why I will never tell the Chinese the location of the allspark!
Mogden
Why should I overpay for those services? I agree, some of them are important. But there’s no reason to overpay. I want the most services for the least amount of money.
the idler
Mogden-have you ever kissed a girl?
Tehanu
Overpaid teachers? What are you using for brains? Most teachers are grossly underpaid for what they do, and no bullshit about how they get the summer off either. You want your own kids taught by the lowest bidder? what a maroon.
Yutsano
That is without a doubt the funniest thing a conservative has ever said.
Mogden
Teachers are without a shadow of doubt highly overpaid, when you consider overall compensation. If there is an opening for a teacher, the line is a mile long. Why do you think that is?
pattonbt
Modgen:
I sympathize with you brother (sister?), I want the cheapest possible labor to be doing the most crucial jobs to society. I mean, those fucking slacker teachers, amirite? Who the fuck do they think they are wanting actual living wages? Fuck them parasites. And cops and firemen? Don’t get me started. They make teachers look like paragons of productivity. Monkeys could do their jobs. Untrained monkeys.
I’ve found it’s always best to make sure you go with the cheapest option for anything. Cheapest is always best. Fuck quality. And the market will make sure quality comes with the cheap price. I mean, if you sell me a cheap good and it’s defective I sure as hell won’t buy it again, now will I? And who said a little lead in children’s toys isn’t a bad thing. It’s actually good. It builds up their fragile little constitutions.
I mean, in my gated community (like yours I’m sure), we are totally self sufficient. Fucking government doesn’t provide us shit. And we keep a nice close eye on the brown folk we let in to take care of our lawns and stuff. And don’t get me started on those parasites. Sure, they do good work for a low price, but they take jobs away from us real Murkin’s. If we just got rid of them, we could cut taxes more because we wouldn’t have to support all those leeches and their anchor babies. I mean, they clog up our ER departments, classrooms and even get welfare! Lazy fuckers.
And with them gone all the good LEGAL unemployed people (of the non-white variety, if you know what I mean, and I know you do) who drain our economy can take those jobs for the sub standard wages and stop draining our resources too. Because they’ll gladly work for the wages offered (well, except maybe not in Georgia, those fucking ingrates).
But i Digress, sorry, once I get going, I just can’t help myself.
Back on point. Fuck those teachers. If it wasn’t for them and their golden compensation packages, we’d be in the fabled cat bird seat with no taxes, awesome government services and a brighter, whiter hue to our national complexion.
pattonbt
Back on topic….I work in an evil industry for my companies construction/capital project area and I see this firsthand every day. The engineering side of things is constantly shifting from one second/third world location to the next. Sure the labor is cheaper, but as others have noted you end paying the same because of the required supervision and re-work.
And same goes for the fabrication. And while China and India are having a nice time now, the sun is soon setting on them too as they are getting competition from even cheaper countries (Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc.). China and India still have a good run ahead of them, but businesses are always looking for cheaper and cheaper is out there to be had.
This race to the bottom has been obvious to anyone who has been paying attention to the last twenty/thirty years.
All I ever say is “you get what you pay for”.
Bender
Ah, just wait until China unionizes. That’ll ruin their manufacturing economy like it ruined ours. Then, world industries will find the next backwards country where their workers earn pennies a day (Who am I kidding? We already know who the Next Manufacturers will be!).