Mike J sends this piece from the Guardian, detailing the way the UK government worked with the nuclear industry to reassure citizens that nuclear power is safe in the wake of Fukushima. Also in the Guardian: Japanese children from the Fukushima area have radioactive isotopes of cesium in their urine.
Meanwhile, back home, the media I’ve seen on the Fort Calhoun plant in Nebraska, which is surrounded by flood waters, has been generally better than expected. Even though the plant is in cold shutdown, the new acknowledgement of the issues with stored fuel has led to coverage like this that acknowledges the danger of station blackout even in cold shutdown.
“The question is, ‘Do you still have power?’ ” said Andrew C. Kadak, a former professor of nuclear engineering at M.I.T. “If they’ve got that, the plant can sit there until the water recedes. The Fukushima lesson is really that you’ve got to have electricity.”
Last year, the NRC required Fort Calhoun to beef up their flood defenses, and the NRC is doing additional analysis to determine the effect of failure of the upstream dams on the plant. My question is why they approved building a plant so close to a major, flood-prone river in the first place.
LowProfileinGA
Who could have foreseen?
liberal
My question is why they’re using reactor designs that require energy input to keep things from blowing up, instead of “passively safe” designs.
Linda Featheringill
Building started in 1966 [commissioned in 1973]. It was probably planned two to three years before that.
There was a lot we didn’t know about a lot of things.
PeakVT
My question is why they approved building a plant so close to a major, flood-prone river in the first place.
Because the Missouri at that location probably wasn’t judged to be an extraordinary threat in the 1960s because there are six major dams upstream. Safety analysis requires certain assumptions and the people building nuclear power plants have incentives to underestimate them.
henqiguai
Um, cooling ? Oh, you mean the flooding part. Rivers flood; who could have anticipated ?
Now, one wonders why due diligence wasn’t done during the site design phase and adequate allowances weren’t made for those, oh I don’t know, 6 sigma outliers. Probably, because this is we-must-at-all-costs-minimize-hits-to-corporate-profits America, everyone crossed their fingers and assured themselves that the outliers never happen; to them.
And yes, I have been accused of being a tad cynical.
James Hare
Flood-prone areas are likely to be areas that have less folks to complain about a nuclear plant in their backyard.
Linda Featheringill
It looks like this plant is about 45 years old and the design may be about half a century old. Does that make you feel better? [Me neither.]
UncertaintyVicePrincipal
Totally OT but I have an “ask the audience” question: What can anyone tell me about editing/correcting Wikipedia?
The issues is that an article I just saw about a minor literary figure has an entry with a rather unflattering line about how “so and so has been called such and such” — but when you click the reference given, it’s the person who entered the line on Wikipedia, writing on a right wing blog, who wrote it to begin with– who’s referring to his own line characterizing the figure that way.
A parallel would be if I wrote in a front page post here “Mark Halperin, the clown prince of journalism”, and then entered something in the Wikipedia article about his life saying “He’s been called the clown prince of journalism”, giving my own post as a “citation”.
Now with all the caveats about who cares, it’s Wikipedia and all the rest, what can anyone tell me about how to correct this? I know nothing about Wikipedia editing, I know there are debates and procedures and probably a whole raft of controversies and Daily-Kos-like insider melodrama and divisions and minor civilizations that have sprung up inside of it and around it but– what’s the best thing to do? Just remove the BS citation? Debate it on some discussion page?
Primer please. Thank you.
artem1s
My question is why they approved building a plant so close to a major, flood-prone river in the first place.
because they NEED water to operate. The reactors turn steam turbines and they need to cool the fuel rods. So they get built close to rivers and lakes and oceans.
arguingwithsignposts
If you have wikipedia editing privileges, you can just delete the reference and put a note on the deletion as to why. Or you can flag it for another editor to look at, iirc. There may be some back and forth, but unless it’s a controversial public figure, likely not.
ETA:
I’m pretty sure that’s against the wikipedia standards anyway, so it shouldn’t be an issue. I’m not a frequent wikipedia participant, but I’ve added a thing or two on occasion.
PeakVT
@UncertaintyVicePrincipal: One generally accepted principle on Wikipedia is that people with a conflict of interest shouldn’t edit the relevant article. Your example strikes me as related, so I would just preemptively edit it and leave an brief explanation in the notes field.
ETA: I think blogs are not considered authoritative references, either, unless the author has established his credentials elsewhere (eg. K-Thug).
The Moar You Know
Meanwhile, India launches work on thorium-based reactors that don’t produce any waste.
There will be parts of the world where the lights stay on. Probably won’t be in the United States or Japan.
Frapalinger
Someone should bring this piece to Sully’s attention, as illustrates the bravery of “real conservatives” he loves so much in the UK.
Roger Moore
@The Moar You Know:
Don’t believe the hype. Remember that the people who are making the claims about how wonderful it is are also the people who will profit by building the plants. Thorium may be cleaner than the way we do Uranium, but it’s in no way waste free.
drkrick
OT, but since Radley Balko is a frequent topic/target around here, it’s worth noting that Cory Maye (background on the case here: http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/the-cato-policy-analyst-who-may-have-saved-a-mans-life/ ) has been offered a plea that will reduce his sentence to time served and have him home with his family in a few days.
Balko has been publicizing this case and the institutional problems it illustrates for years, and he and the other people involved deserve a lot of credit for this reversal of injustice no matter what you think of his other work.
Neutron Flux
@ The Moar You know
There are varying opinions vis a vis thorium reactor.
I have no first hand knowledge, so really don’t have on opinion one way or the other.
Neutron Flux
@ mistermix
A few months ago I gave you some links to Nuclear Industry sources of information. Here is one more.
This is to the Professional Reactor Operator Society.
Members are folks who operate these plants. Their issues are workplace and regulations that impact the workplace.
You will find this to be a good source of information with regard to the Nuclear Industry. For example, they have the situation at Cooper Nuclear Station and Fort Calhoun Station pretty well explained
Southern Beale
Today in Republican Moral Values hypocrisy! Maybe there’s room at Anthony Weiner’s sex addiction rehab clinic for this guy.
UncertaintyVicePrincipal
Thanks AWSP,
So I signed up yesterday for an account, and it seems to let me into the html markup of the article to edit it. Are those editing privileges, or am I missing a step? It looks like I have to remove the ref /ref tags related to his edit also since the reference/citation of his magazine article will make no sense without his line that I’m removing, so I assume it will give me a place to add comments after I do so?
PeakVT: Well, it looks like it’s a magazine article actually, I just saw the online version so assumed blog, but as I look at it, I guess this is a good old extreme right wing regular magazine, and an online posting of the article. He’s linking to the online version though of course.
I assumed the same thing though, that using your own line as a reference to “has been called” when you just called the person that yourself, no one else ever has done so, I mean if Wikipedia has any rules that’s got to be one of them.
Southern Beale
My comment got embargoed. And I didn’t say any of the bad words. FREE ME FREE ME FREE ME
arguingwithsignposts
Yes. There should be a box at the bottom of the page that allows you to comment on the edit. I don’t have the screen in front of me, but that should do the trick.
Robert Sneddon
The Indian thorium reactor designs are basically the same technology as current uranium light-water reactors of the sort at Fukushima, and they can go wrong in just the same ways with residual decay heat.
India has few native uranium ore bodies but they have quite a lot of thorium to hand hence their interest in developing thorium as a reactor fuel. The thorium cycle is also good for producing U-233 ready to be made into nuclear weapons. The problem with thorium reactors of this type is that they need medium-enriched uranium (20% or so) plus some plutonium in the reactor to keep it running as thorium by itself is not self-sustaining in terms of neutron flux. The resulting spent fuel rods contain a different mix of long-lived wastes than existing uranium fuelled reactors and there isn’t an existing reprocessing system capable of handling them unlike the established uranium/MOX PUREX fuel reprocessing operations in France, Britain, Russia and Japan. China is also building a PUREX plant.
There are other magic-tech thorium designs such as the liquid thorium fluoride reactor (LFTR) but they require continuous processing of highly radioactive fluids at high temperatures to remove fission poisons and prevent U-233 from being produced, a requirement for non-proliferation licencing. Parts of the system will have to be replaced every few years and decommissioning those parts and disposing of them is an interesting problem in radiological terms as they will be very “hot”. In contrast all the nasty bits of a uranium reactor run until end-of-life of the entire reactor at which point the operators shut it down and leave it for ten years or so to cool off before dismantling it, not something that can be done with an operating reactor that is not at end-of-life.
jimbob
Uh, “flood prone”? Really? Check your recent history: there hasn’t been anything like a “flood” since ’52 (?) and that was before the Corp reconfigured the river and built all the dams upstream. What we have right now is epic. If you’ve ever been to the Ft. Calhoun plant, you’d be amazed at the fact that the water ever got that close . . . it’s a good 1/4 mile from the “river” and on traditionally high ground.
They didn’t figure in the Rapture, Endtimes, and the Mayan Calender when they built it. Those were more optimistic times.
Glen Tomkins
Not to downplay the seriousness of radioisotopes of cesium in the urine, but it’s much preferable to have the stuff excreted in the urine than to have it accumulate in the body somewhere.
The reason they give out potassium iodide to people in areas affected by fallout is that iodine, including its radioactive isotopes, does tend to depot in the thyroid gland. You flood the zone with the non-radioactive iodine in the tablets so that the thyroid becomes saturated and won’t retain any of the radioactive isotopes. For radioisotopes of iodine, finding it in the urine would be a measure of success, it would be the expected and desired outcome of blocking its retention in the thyroid.
The question, to which I don’t know the answer, is whether cesium tends to depot in the body. That’s always the question with heavy metals, which can be toxic especially if they depot, even if they’re not radioactive. If it doesn’t depot, then the exposure is time-limited, and it would require higher levels of radioactivity to get to a danger level, because what radioactivity is present has less time to do its damage before it’s excreted.
In the absence of information about whether Cesium does depot in the body, the significance of this report is that there is indeed exposure going on, there is such an amount of Cesium radioisotopes in the environment that 10/10 children tested had some in their urine. This justifies a search for exactly how the children are being exposed. Even if the levels now are not dangerous, until we know what the exact exposure in the environment is, there won’t be any assurance that the levels will stay below a danger threshold.
Roger Moore
@Glen Tomkins:
Cesium is an alkali metal like sodium or potassium, so I’d expect it to have a fairly short residence time in the body the same way those elements do. It doesn’t accumulate the way iodine does. The real nasties are relatively long half life bioaccumulators like 90Sr that get incorporated into your body and irradiate you for years.
UncertaintyVicePrincipal
awsp
Okay thanks. I made the changes– I think the part that was really confusing me was that the guy who entered the line and citation left some stray weird markup that didn’t make any sense, but I just deleted what seemed logical and it seems to work.
I just went through the FAQs and help and etc and I can’t find anything about leaving a comment. This is a “biography” page so it may be a special case, seems like it might be. There’s a “talk” section which seems to require that I start a whole page of discussion about this article, not sure that’s the best way to do this. I would love to just explain in a note why I made the edit as I did here, above, but oh well. Now I suppose the Wingnut will put it back, and on we go. I guess I’ll learn how it all works eventually.
DBrown
Robert Sneddon – all I can say is: Wow. Nailed it. Referances not needed (but I’d really like to know were that much infro is available.)
Suicidal Zebra
*ponders* When was the last 7+ earthquake in or around the UK? How about tidal waves?
Renewable sources aren’t anywhere near enough to meet the UK energy needs in the medium term even without the NIMBY-ism of the populace wrt wind, tidal etc. There are therefore 3 choices:
1) Produce own power through nuclear energy,
2) Produce own power through coal/gas fired power stations, abrogating our CO2 emission target responsibilities, or
3) Import all our energy from France, who generate it through nuclear anyway.
Though I suppose we can always go with 4) Blackouts for everyone!
The risks for UK nuclear power are maintenance-based, natural disasters aren’t really a factor. Whilst government regulators should have an antagonistic relationship with the industry and rigorously enforce stringent regulations, I don’t think going down Germany’s route of vilifying and avoiding NP based on a disaster half the world away is credible or feasible. If the government needs to liaise with the industry to make that clear, so be it.
burnspbesq
@Southern Beale:
Now we see the violence inherent in the system.
FREE SOUTHERN BEALE!
UncertaintyVicePrincipal
me
Follow up: I guess the “talk” page is the way to go after all. It was just almost completely empty since this is a non-controversial figure or largely forgotten or etc, so sort of seemed odd, but I just stated my case there.
The Ancient Randonneur
I see that Kay’s favorite Fox media personality just signed into law a new freedom agenda for Ohio:
When the lights go out, and the party’s over, you know you’ll be safe, even in a bar full of drunks. I can’t see any down side to this, whatsoever.
freelancer
FYI, I live 20 minutes away from the OPPD Nuclear plant. Nobody here is very panicked about the nuclear station because the local reporting on the situation has been superb. What is basically freaking out the general population though are persistant rumors that state and local officials have been lobbying the Army Corps of Engineers to hold off releasing more water from the Gavin’s Point Dam until after the College World Series and July 4th. Rumors abound and everybody knows somebody who knows somebody who thinks that the Dam will have to release a record number of water and it’s not just the riverfront that is going to be inundated, but now, also the Convention Center, the new TD Ameritrade baseball stadium, the Old Market, and pretty much all low lying areas of East Omaha/Western Council Bluffs. If that happens, it will be a gigantic disaster area with tens of thousands of displaced people and tons of lost businesses.
freelancer
Also, here’s what it looks like from the air as you fly in. And this was 3 weeks ago, it’s only gotten worse since then.
WereBear
The Ancient Randonneur@ Guns in bars! That’s never caused a problem!
/snark
Dennis SGMM
@The Ancient Randonneur
Kasich is just trying to make Ohio the first state to win a Darwin Award.
jimbob
@freelancer
WE’RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!
(I went “boating” on my friend’s farm just north of Dodge Park a couple weeks ago. Very surreal.)
srv
Floodplain land is usually very affordable if you can live with being underwater on occasion.
Rihilism
I’m glad local residents aren’t panicking. Has the local media discussed the uncertainties related to what impact groundwater infiltration will have on the underlying structures at the facility? I’ve heard somewhat about this on Maddow (basically, no one knows for certain what impact that will have) but I’ve not heard much outside of that discussion. Maintaining power is, of course vital, but it seems that structural integrity of the facility, which will be exposed to high water/groundwater levels for weeks, has not really been dealt with. Anybody have any info on this? Does the plants design compensate for this?
Rihilism
Oh, and as to the why build it here question. The short answer is water needed for cooling, which others have pointed out. The other answer, as others have also pointed out, is that the Missouri is a “controlled” river precisely in order to “control” and “mitigate” flooding events through the use of numerous damns and other structures. I grew up next to the Missouri in Sioux City, Iowa, (yes, I’m still in therapy) and so my experience of “rivers” was narrow, deep channeled, fast, and perpetually “controlled” to minimize movement into the historical floodplain. It wasn’t until I saw the Mississippi for the first time that I realized that rivers could be relatively shallow, slow moving and spread out over large areas.
It is unfortunate that our go-getter forebears were so convinced of their engineering expertise that they felt their methods of reducing flood risk (damns, levees, etc.) were superior to nature’s (wetlands, marshes, and the instinctual intelligence to remove oneself from harm’s way)….
freelancer
@Rihilism:
As far as I know, the Missouri River Valley, right along the banks has a consistantly high water table. As far as the structural integrity of the buildings, I have no concerns about flooding undermining the building from underneath. I have family that works for OPPD, and an uncle who works at the other nuclear station in Brownville, NE. The ground these plants are built on is solid, weathered, and isn’t going anywhere.
freelancer
Does your nose still work?
Rihilism
Not to be such a Chatty-Cathy, but I also heard (on Maddow?) that the NRC (and the plant’s owners?) are claiming that the 40-yr design life of the facility (which it has exceeded) refers to the “economic-life” of the facility and not the actual “design life”. A claim that is being disputed by one of the original GE designers. Anyone have any word on that?
Rihilism
I wasn’t so much interested in whether the plant would float away as I was interested in knowing whether the groundwater would put pressure on the underlying concrete structures causing cracks. Not saying I thought is was an issue, just whether anyone “in authority” had addressed it.
Ah, yes, driving into Sioux City from the south, the first thing you experience is the sewage treatment plant. As you approached downtown you got your first whiff of the stockyards. Lovely. As I understand it, the stockyards are gone, mitigating at least one reason to dislike SC.
On the other hand, I worked for sometime in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, which is the corn wet-milling capital of the world and frequently referred to “The City of Five Smells” (a riff on the nickname, “The City of Five Seasons”, whatever the fuck that means). Smelling Quaker Oats Crunch Berries mixed with the sulfurous emanations of the corn wet-milling facilities was a dream come true and sharpened my olfactory senses enormously….
Kewalo
I know exactly why they built the reactor so close to a flood zone. Hubris.
Years ago I was living on Maui and they built a hotel in a flood zone. About 1967 or so it rained, a lot, and they had a mud slide that went through the lobby, filled up the pool and went on to the ocean.
It turns out that when they were doing the planning the local Hawaiians went to the planners and told them that every now and then there would be a mudslide in that area. Naturally they weren’t listened to. After all they were just uneducated native people and since it hadn’t happen in a few years, it wasn’t going to happen again. Un huh, sure.
Our “experts” have very short memories.
MikeJ
Suicidal Zebra @ 28:
Actually there was a minor tsunami off the Cornish coast this week, following an underwater landslide.
Glen Tomkins
@Roger Moore
So presumably they were measuring cesium in the urine because cesium gets excreted at a rate highly correlated with its rate of intake, therefore its concentration in urine is an easy-to-obtain first approximation of how much of the actually dangerous stuff might be out there being taken in by these people, but whose output in the urine might lag years behind its intake.
Why can’t the media get people on this story who could explain this, and therefore make the story make sense? Instead they have people on the story who don’t understand the story, and therefore veer uncontrollably between the extremes of just passively doing PR for the govt and TEPCO on the one hand, vs spreading an alarmist take on things on the other hand. They even manage to do both at the same time.
futzinfarb
I’m no great fan of nuclear accidents, nor of unnecessary radiation exposure, but I find it important to point out the scale of the radioisotopes that were reportedly found in those children. You should understand that we are all constantly and unavoidably exposed to naturally occurring nuclear radiation from a wide range of sources, e.g., cosmic rays and a number of naturally occurring radioisotopes. The levels of radioactivity in the urine of these children that was reported is a fraction of a percent of their exposure just to radiation from the potassium-40 that is naturally incorporated in their bodies, and a much smaller fraction of a percent still of their overall naturally occurring exposure to radiation. It is at least plausible that this is a medically insignificant level of exposure.