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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Tuesday Morning Open Thread

Tuesday Morning Open Thread

by Anne Laurie|  July 5, 20115:26 am| 45 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads, Republican Stupidity, Republican Venality, All we want is life beyond the thunderdome

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(Mike Luckovich via GoComics.com)

The Conventional-Wisdom momentum may finally be shifting, however slowly, in favor of the Sane People’s Party. Eugene Robinson, at the Washington Post, thinks President Obama has called the GOP’s bluff:

… Obama’s in-your-face attitude seems to have thrown Republicans off their stride. They thought all they had to do was convince everyone they were crazy enough to force an unthinkable default on the nation’s financial obligations. Now they have to wonder if Obama is crazy enough to let them.
__
He probably isn’t. But the White House has kept up the pressure…
__
My view, for what it’s worth, is that now is the wrong time for spending cuts or tax increases — that it’s ridiculous to do anything that might slow the lumbering economic recovery, even marginally. But if there have to be cuts, then Republicans must be forced to move off the no-new-revenue line they have drawn in the sand.
__
Even if they move just an inch, the nation’s prospects become much brighter. This fight is that important…
__
Maybe that’s why, in this stare-down, the president doesn’t seem inclined to blink.

Steve Benen at the Washington Monthly, on the other hand, points out that the GOPers are doubling down:

… I’m also fascinated by the notion that McCain suddenly believes mandates matter. Barack Obama sought the presidency promising to raise taxes on those making more than $250,000 a year. If memory serves, he did pretty well when voters had their say. By McCain’s reasoning, doesn’t that mean the president should have his way, too?
__
But it’s the “they don’t want compromise” line that really stands out. From McCain’s bizarre perspective, Americans simply want Democrats to accept the Republicans’ unpopular agenda — all of it — and see no need for compromise between the parties.
__
It’s a reminder about the extent to which the parties are approaching this process very differently. Democrats believe it’s a negotiation, and both sides will make concessions to reach an equitable agreement. Republicans believe it’s a transaction, and Democrats must simply give the GOP what it demands.

And yet the most significant indicator of a change in the political winds are the latest columns from two of the Media Village’s most notorious hacks: Richard “Caligula’s Horse” Cohen titles his “A Grand Old Cult“.

… This intellectual rigidity has produced a GOP presidential field that’s a virtual political Jonestown. The Grand Old Party, so named when it really did evoke America, has so narrowed its base that it has become a political cult. It is a redoubt of certainty over reason and in itself significantly responsible for the government deficit that matters most: leadership. That we can’t borrow from China.

And David “BoBo” Brooks, the man who never met a bankster to whom he wouldn’t bow, lavishes several paragraphs of slavering praise on the “Republican leaders [who] have changed American politics“ and “proven to be effective negotiators… tough & inflexible and forced the Democrats to come to them” before turning in a different direction:

If the Republican Party were a normal party, it would take advantage of this amazing moment. It is being offered the deal of the century: trillions of dollars in spending cuts in exchange for a few hundred million dollars of revenue increases…
__
But we can have no confidence that the Republicans will seize this opportunity. That’s because the Republican Party may no longer be a normal party. Over the past few years, it has been infected by a faction that is more of a psychological protest than a practical, governing alternative…
__
The members of this movement have no sense of moral decency. A nation makes a sacred pledge to pay the money back when it borrows money. But the members of this movement talk blandly of default and are willing to stain their nation’s honor…
__
The struggles of the next few weeks are about what sort of party the G.O.P. is — a normal conservative party or an odd protest movement that has separated itself from normal governance, the normal rules of evidence and the ancient habits of our nation.
__
If the debt ceiling talks fail, independents voters will see that Democrats were willing to compromise but Republicans were not. If responsible Republicans don’t take control, independents will conclude that Republican fanaticism caused this default. They will conclude that Republicans are not fit to govern.
__
And they will be right.

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45Comments

  1. 1.

    Chuck Butcher

    July 5, 2011 at 5:34 am

    The word is that when the GOPers walked out the deal was 83% cuts and 17% revenue. I won’t take take any bets on percentages if there is a deal. Stuck laughs at 90/10, I’ll wait to see.

    I’d be more impressed with 50/50 but …

    We do have to have our wars and other plutocratic perks…

  2. 2.

    harlana

    July 5, 2011 at 5:45 am

    Chuck: Well, that’s how Dems roll, could have started negotiations from 50/50 and negotiate down from there, but we like to negotiate down from an already weak position.

  3. 3.

    boss bitch

    July 5, 2011 at 6:11 am

    Well, that’s how Dems roll, could have started negotiations from 50/50 and negotiate down from there, but we like to negotiate down from an already weak position.

    Is this snark?

    What part of the excerpts above do you not understand? Have you met the Republican party? It doesn’t matter one shit where you start negotiations when the other party is willing to let it all go to hell.

  4. 4.

    JGabriel

    July 5, 2011 at 6:18 am

    Anne Laurie @ Top:

    And David “BoBo” Brooks, the man who never met a bankster to whom he wouldn’t bow, lavishes several paragraphs of slavering praise on the “Republican leaders [who] have changed American politics“ …

    Brooks’s column today is called The Mother of All No-Brainers, which leaves me in a quandary. I don’t know how to respond to it, because I have so many conflicting feelings about it. So, let me put the question to my fellow juicers — which response do you think is best:

    A) Finally! A topic on which Brooks has some experience.
    B) Brooks shouldn’t be insulting his mama that way. That’s OUR job!
    C) Does Brooks ever stop writing about himself?

    .

  5. 5.

    geg6

    July 5, 2011 at 6:19 am

    Well, looks like the banksters are weighing in and have sent two of their most reliable water carriers out to sound the alarm. Good. It’s about time.

  6. 6.

    JGabriel

    July 5, 2011 at 6:25 am

    boss bitch:

    It doesn’t matter one shit where you start negotiations when the other party is willing to let it all go to hell.

    May as well start from a noble place then, rather than look compromised before you begin.

    .

  7. 7.

    harlana

    July 5, 2011 at 6:25 am

    boss bitch: wow, that doesn’t mean we need to act like a bunch of pansies and capitulate immediately to bullies, what part of that do YOU not understand? So standing up for the helpless on principal means nothing, I get it.

    Why do people get so damn nasty on here just because you express a position that doesn’t completely jibe with their own? I mean, keep it up and all if that is your bag, not mine, but do your thing.

  8. 8.

    boss bitch

    July 5, 2011 at 6:30 am

    May as well start from a noble place then, rather than look compromised before you begin.

    what does this even mean? who decides what a “noble place” is?

    “look compromised?” huh? voters want compromise. Most Americans are not impressed with Mexican standoffs in Congress. This is not a sport for them.

  9. 9.

    harlana

    July 5, 2011 at 6:39 am

    boss bitch: So act like a bunch of WIMPS, that’s the ticket. I know I personally would feel better if Dems behaved as if they didn’t give a shit whether people die and stuff. Sleep like a baby.

    Because that’s what this boils down to, people are gonna suffer and/or die unnecessarily.

  10. 10.

    boss bitch

    July 5, 2011 at 6:44 am

    wow, that doesn’t mean we need to act like a bunch of pansies and capitulate immediately to bullies, what part of that do YOU not understand? So standing up for the helpless on principal means nothing, I get it.

    So let me get this straight. Compromising to prevent a collapse of the economy and the possible loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs is being a pansy? That isn’t considered protecting the helpless? do you think the rest of this country is interested in your principals when they can’t pay their bills?

    Why do people get so damn nasty on here just because you express a position that doesn’t completely jibe with their own?

    I’m getting nasty because your position is tired and illogical. The negotiating tactic of starting really high and then hoping the other party comes down to where you secretly wanted it does. not. work. for THIS Republican party. And what’s especially bizarre is that the same people who push this tactic will also tell you that Republicans want everything or nothing.

  11. 11.

    Linda Featheringill

    July 5, 2011 at 6:46 am

    Brooks’ column is new to me because I usually pretend that it’s not even there.

    The quoted bit above is very interesting. Maybe geg6 @5 is right and maybe the big boys have waded in and reminded the Reps who provides their butter and bread.

    Part of the House Republicans probably wouldn’t vote for a compromise if heaven itself had offered it up. Therefore, at least some votes from the Democrats will be necessary to pass a bill. If Pelosi & Co. insist on being in on the negotiations, perhaps they can work out a reasonable bill and actually vote for it.

    Aside from urging Republicans to keep their government hands off of my Medicare, I think that preserving social services and cutting back on the military budget might be good for us.

  12. 12.

    harlana

    July 5, 2011 at 6:48 am

    And what’s especially bizarre is that the same people who push this tactic will also tell you that Republicans want everything or nothing.

    Who’s pushing it? All I said was why not start high and negotiate down. Not sure why that hurt your fees so bad, sorry. I never said don’t negotiate at all, wow, overreact why don’t you.

  13. 13.

    boss bitch

    July 5, 2011 at 6:49 am

    So act like a bunch of WIMPS, that’s the ticket.

    We are not interested in who’s dick is bigger just get it done.

    I know I personally would feel better if Dems behaved as if they didn’t give a shit whether people die and stuff. Sleep like a baby.

    yes. I know. I’ve known this about the left for a couple of years now. I can’t afford your brand of principals.

  14. 14.

    boss bitch

    July 5, 2011 at 6:54 am

    All I said was why not start high and negotiate down. Not sure why that hurt your fees so bad, sorry.

    LOL!!! too early for this piece of nonsense. I’m a let you talk to Nate Silver: http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/12/public-option-fight-may-not-have-been.html

    GOOD MORNING EVERYONE! HAVE A WONDERFUL DAY!

  15. 15.

    harlana

    July 5, 2011 at 6:55 am

    boss bitch: ah, you’re just boring me now . . . zzzzzz

  16. 16.

    bryanD

    July 5, 2011 at 6:58 am

    Van Jones briefly diagnoses the Obamaean Left’s whole operational quandary for 2012 viz “tea party” beginning at about 11 minutes into his Netroots Nation speech.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvdqD7bNZOs

    ===============================
    Women’s World Cup this morning:
    Japan vs England
    France vs Germany
    _awesome_

  17. 17.

    Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal

    July 5, 2011 at 7:01 am

    what obama needs to do, what the dems in the negotiation need to do, is start taking things off the table.

    what every democrat in washington, and anywhere near the metaphorical wall st, anyone with a loud speaker, really, is say that what those paying attention know, but the voters don’t probably get, that the gop is going to run the country into the ground. they need to talk about what actually happens if we default.

    davie brooks says voters will remember, i am pretty sure, he will do everything in his power, not to remind them. ironic words from a fat head.

  18. 18.

    DBrown

    July 5, 2011 at 7:16 am

    When you claim

    The word is that when the GOPers walked out the deal was 83% cuts and 17% revenue. I won’t take take any bets on percentages if there is a deal. Stuck laughs at 90/10, I’ll wait to see.

    Do you realize that the last deal the thug’s said ‘yes to’ was a similar percentage of cuts to revenue – only the time line was not given that they would be applied over. After the time line was given it turned out all the cuts were spread over ten years and were very small for any year. I bet that will be true again but the increases will be for this year (and remain, continuing this effect.) Then the deal is better than 50/50 in demo’s favor.

    Just a thought.

  19. 19.

    Svensker

    July 5, 2011 at 7:17 am

    Goodness, you’re up early AL.

  20. 20.

    bob h

    July 5, 2011 at 7:18 am

    I’m thinking it is going to take a -700 point day on the Dow, al la September, 2008, to get Republicans’ attention. When the wealth of the overclass is taking a hit, that will be important. Bobo must be worried about his stock portfolio.

  21. 21.

    Nancy Irving

    July 5, 2011 at 7:19 am

    When the GOP has lost Bobo–just, wow.

  22. 22.

    Ben Cisco

    July 5, 2011 at 7:28 am

    It’s a sad commentary to note that Brooks’ tepid acknowledgement of the NeoConfederate fungus came at the cost of praising their intransigence first.

  23. 23.

    cat48

    July 5, 2011 at 7:29 am

    what obama needs to do, what the dems in the negotiation need to do, is start taking things off the table.

    Obama’s showing them a little leg, based on that article in the NYT about Medicare Provider cuts. The “WH Aide” says if there is no revenue offered; there will be no Medicare Provider cuts.

  24. 24.

    Odie Hugh Manatee

    July 5, 2011 at 7:31 am

    What pisses me off is that big businesses tie themselves to small businesses when it comes to tax increases. Same with the wealthy; they equate any increase in taxes on themselves as a tax increase on everyone. Obama was quite specific on where he drew the line on increasing taxes yet the M$M made it sound like everyone was going to see an increase in taxes.

    The wealthy and big business have nothing in common with everyone else out there. Nothing. It’s time to tax dynastic wealth and close loopholes that big business and the wealthy use to escape paying anything near a fair share of taxes.

    I dislike Bobo with the heat of a thousand burning suns, but:

    If the debt ceiling talks fail, independents voters will see that Democrats were willing to compromise but Republicans were not. If responsible Republicans don’t take control, independents will conclude that Republican fanaticism caused this default. They will conclude that Republicans are not fit to govern.
     
    And they will be right.

    he might be right on this. If the Repubs want to burn the house down I think that enough of the public is paying attention to what is going on that they will be made to suffer for doing so.

    That’s why I say that if the kids insist on playing with gasoline and matches and set themselves on fire, then let them burn. We can always put the fire out later, sweep up their ashes and dump them in the trash.

    Where they belong.

  25. 25.

    gene108

    July 5, 2011 at 7:45 am

    Anybody know any effective ways to win the lottery?

    I really wouldn’t mind getting some extra money, but have a hell of a time getting numbers that hit.

  26. 26.

    OzoneR

    July 5, 2011 at 7:47 am

    So standing up for the helpless on principal means nothing, I get it.

    No, it doesn’t mean anything, that should be clear by now

    I know I personally would feel better if Dems behaved as if they didn’t give a shit whether people die and stuff.

    I thought they were supposed to stand up for the helpless.

  27. 27.

    Maude

    July 5, 2011 at 7:55 am

    When were the Republicans fit to govern? Back in the days of Lincoln?

  28. 28.

    DBrown

    July 5, 2011 at 7:56 am

    Anybody know any effective ways to win the lottery?

    Simple and fool proof – just buy up all the possible numbers – you win. Easy!

  29. 29.

    cleek

    July 5, 2011 at 7:58 am

    Anybody know any effective ways to win the lottery?

    1. invent a time machine
    2. ???
    3. profit!

  30. 30.

    Starfish

    July 5, 2011 at 8:07 am

    @Odie Hugh Manatee

    That really bothers me too. I think we need a few more tax brackets on the high end. I hate it when there is all this talk of taking away the mortgage tax exemption completely, and there is no talk of taking away the mortgage tax exemption for second homes.

    I am sure a lot of people could agree on the latter, and this would discourage builders from constructing more housing on the high end that is highly profitable but not very useful.

  31. 31.

    bemused

    July 5, 2011 at 8:07 am

    Here in Minnesota, I met a neighbor over the weekend who got laid off from his job at a local large highway construction company for the first time ever in the summer. Lots of private sector jobs are affected by the gov’t shutdown, not just those ‘overpaid, unnecessary, lazy, bums’ working for the state.

    State Rep. Mary Kiffmeyer, formerly Sec of State who tried mightily to mess with voter rights and famous for wanting to place terrorist alert posters in 2004 polling places warning about men with shaved heads and smelling of flower-water, made this statement about Gov. Dayton’s proposal to raise taxes on the wealthiest Minnesotans, “It’s not about revenue. It’s about a tax increase because they want to go after those who’ve actually worked hard”. Kiffmeyer and team GOP think 98% of the rest of us are slouchers.

    I hear tea party supporters say we should have government shutdowns because we all need to feel and share the pain. I don’t think they are talking about themselves or have a clue how they would be affected. Biggest whiners ever when they have to drive on deteriorating highways, potholed streets, don’t get rapid enough responses from law enforcement or firefighters, and so on.

  32. 32.

    aimai

    July 5, 2011 at 8:08 am

    I think what I object to is that Brooks seems to imagine that the modern Republican party isn’t the heir of the old Republican party–that’s only true if you ignore the fact that the Birchers just moved from the fringe of the tent to running the show. Its not like the old guard were eliminated, they moved over and let themselves be taken over by close relatives with more vicious and instranigent interest. But there’s no real difference between the new Republican party and the Republican party of forty or fifty years ago–still the party of resentment, white power, and imperialism flip flopping with isolationalism.

    So Brooks has it backwards–there’s nothing good to get back to.This isn’t the end of the Republican party as we knew it. Its the apotheosis.

    aimai

  33. 33.

    bemused

    July 5, 2011 at 8:14 am

    Maude@27,

    A 92 year old relative often says if it had been up to Republicans and private business, we probably still wouldn’t have electricity or landline telephone service in northern Minnesota. He’s only slightly joking.

  34. 34.

    JGabriel

    July 5, 2011 at 8:14 am

    gene108:

    Anybody know any effective ways to win the lottery?

    Yes, I’ve invented a special device for just that purpose, but it’ll cost you $59.95, plus shipping and handling.

    .

  35. 35.

    WereBear

    July 5, 2011 at 8:45 am

    It all fun and games until someone’s portfolio takes a hit.

  36. 36.

    RossInDetroit

    July 5, 2011 at 8:49 am

    A 92 year old relative often says if it had been up to Republicans and private business, we probably still wouldn’t have electricity or landline telephone service in northern Minnesota. He’s only slightly joking.

    Another thing the government did for you: auto safety. There’s no money in protecting people from things they can’t believe will happen so Washington had to do it.
    These pictures show a crash test between 2 cars 50 years apart. The occupants of the ’09 would probably walk away shaken up. The driver of the ’59 would probably leave with a sheet over his face. The difference is striking.

  37. 37.

    Dino

    July 5, 2011 at 8:55 am

    I don’t think it matters. The wingnuts consider Bobo a liberal. They don’t read the Times or Post. They stopped reading them long ago, preferring their own echo chamber.

    The establishment Republicans have lost control to the know nothings and they can’t figure out how to get it back. Any Republican who compromises is toast. There will be a compromise but it will be ugly.

  38. 38.

    bemused

    July 5, 2011 at 9:03 am

    Ross,

    This 92 year old will tick off a long list of advancements benefiting, improving our lives and country significantly today that Democrats and liberals have proposed, supported and have made happen and then enjoys asking any Republicans in the vicinity to name one thing that the Republican party that has done for them in comparison. They are often stumped or have difficulty coming up with anything more than Dems want to tax and spend too much.

  39. 39.

    J

    July 5, 2011 at 9:20 am

    Aimai @ 32

    Agree up to a point, these were certainly the dominant forces in the GOP of 40 or 50 years ago, but the Republican party of those days had room for Jacob Javits, John Lindsay (I know he switched), Mark Hatfield and some other reasonable people who seem to have been guided by some conception of the public good recognizable as such. I think the party of the present day really is more monolithically crazy and wicked than ever before. Not that Brooks has any right to identify himself with decent elements in the old Republican party. Notice that in today’s column he thinks the deal the Republicans could have now, the one they have won by fanatical brinkmanship that would require massive reductions in public services and the continuation of absurdly low tax on our worthless ruling class is peachy keen.

  40. 40.

    tomvox1

    July 5, 2011 at 9:30 am

    David “BoBo” Brooks, the man who never met a bankster to whom he wouldn’t bow blow

    Fixed

  41. 41.

    Xenocrates

    July 5, 2011 at 10:38 am

    “…If responsible Republicans don’t take control, independents will conclude that Republican fanaticism caused this default. They will conclude that Republicans are not fit to govern.

    And they will be right. ”

    Did he cry as he typed these lines? Perhaps the scales are finally falling from Bobo’s eyes…

  42. 42.

    El Cruzado

    July 5, 2011 at 1:07 pm

    When even the conservative David Brooks…

  43. 43.

    Rick Taylor

    July 5, 2011 at 1:11 pm

    The members of this movement have no sense of moral decency. A nation makes a sacred pledge to pay the money back when it borrows money. But the members of this movement talk blandly of default and are willing to stain their nation’s honor…

    __
    Finally someone says this. And David Brooks of all people.

  44. 44.

    Rick Taylor

    July 5, 2011 at 1:14 pm

    Even if they move just an inch, the nation’s prospects become much brighter. This fight is that important…

    __
    This is something I don’t understand. If we compromise with a couple trillion dollars of spending cuts and few hundred billion dollars in revenue enhancements, that seems like a loss to me.

  45. 45.

    cokane

    July 5, 2011 at 3:40 pm

    That’s actually an amazing op-ed by Brooks. The harshest I’ve ever seen him come down on Republicans and/or conservatives.

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