I know that I am contractually obligated as a blogger to immediately freak out about this:
OMG OBAMA IS WORSE THAN BUSH! HE IS COMING FOR YOUR SOCIAL SECURITY! FOLLOW ME! FOLLOW ME TO FREEDOM!
I’m going outside now. I actually think I will wait until something happens before I join everyone else in the craziness.
balconesfault
The devils are in the details, aren’t they?
Lolis
From Huff Po:
The Obama administration is pushing back against a Wednesday night report that the president is prepared to offer cuts to Social Security as part of a deal to raise the debt ceiling.
“The story overshoots the runway,” said a senior administration official. “The President said in the State of the Union that he wanted a bipartisan process to strengthen Social Security in a balanced way that preserves the promise of the program and doesn’t slash benefits.”
“While it is definitely not a driver of the deficit,” the official added, “it does need to be strengthened.”
geg6
Yeah, despite my comment in Tim’s thread, the more I see how this is being framed, the more convinced I am that this is another moment when someone with an agenda (most likely Boehner’s) is pushing this meme HARD into the emessem.
And Josh Marshall needs to remember when he used to make fun of the Village.
jeffreyw
@balconesfault: I keep seeing your nym as bacon’s fault. Mmm…bacon did it-but I admit that I egged it on.
Baud
John, if you continue to act rationally, we’ll have to take away your blogging license. Consider this a warning.
Dexter
That seems to be the most reasonable thing to do.
r
another obama cave and sellout. im sure hell take it off the table later.
so yeah, continue to put your mighty self above it all and feel smug and superior. youre so cool and smarter than everyone else! very brooksian.
balconesfault
Actually the Balcones Fault is the geological feature that created the Texas Hill Country, and the underground rivers that feed Barton Springs – a wonderful oasis of cool water in the middle of sweltering Austin (today will surpass the total number of 100 degree days we had in 2010 – which was one of the hottest summers on record – nope, no global warming here, Rick!).
And of course Austin is an oasis in the middle of crazy Texas.
Allan
This is the kind of day that is good for weeding your social media gardens. If anyone’s looking for me, I’ll be unfollowing and unfriending on Facebook and Twitter.
If you’re filling my timeline with screeds typed in all caps based on anonymously sourced stories in the NYT and WaPo, you won’t be missed.
SpotWeld
I guess I can’t get excited by this.
Change in population,demographics, etc.. it was all going to result in some sort of adjustment to Social Security at some point. (And I mean this in the long view over the course of a few generations).
This might be the first of such changes.
And of course it’s a much bigger, eye-ball grabbing, headline to say “Cuts” than “modifactions that change the recompensation formulation in a manner that better matches the current enrollment of Social Security, probably, maybe”
And, well, I’m just burned out on all this anyway.
stuckinred
At least put the damn song up!
dpcap
Get yo’ freak on!
Han's Solo
@r: If you are going to insult someone’s intelligence you should spell check first. Also too, certain letters in a sentence should be capitalized.
PS – I doubt “hell” will take anything off the table.
jon
If Social Security is on the table, that’s good. That’s the easy problem to solve to get that thing solvent forever. In a decade or so, there needs to be more money put in by taxes or the benefits have to be cut about 25%. Then it’s solvent forever in the future as long as something is arranged to come up with either that extra money or those cuts. I’m guessing it will be a combination, but there will be a lot of Democrats running on raising the upper limit on contributions. And it’s a good issue for them.
Fixing Medicare? That’s the harder problem, but again the Democrats have the stronger position. The GOP has already voted to end it (no matter what they say,) so there’s not a lot to debate politically. The Republicans ran against cutting Medicare then voted to end it entirely, so Obama being willing to discuss Social Security is politically smart.
It allows Obama to show that the Republicans are liars when they discuss jobs, Medicare, Social Security, debt, deficits, taxes, spending, and everything else. As long ago as 2006 I was certain that any responsible Democrat who won in 2008 was sure to be a one-term President. Either he (or she) was going to do responsible things to deal with long-term problems and be unpopular or do irresponsible things and not deal with long-term problems and be vulnerable. I never imagined how absurd the Republicans would get to allow themselves to be so feckless and insane that that they’d be less popular than a man who has made a Presidency that’s been hamstrung by not only the worst Congress ever but also by his own principles.
Han's Solo
@balconesfault: Um, for the record, Austin is one of the best cities in the world. I’ve lived a lot of places and Austin is hands down the best.
4tehlulz
>Obama offers Social Security Cuts
>Washington Post
Yeah, I’m going to wait on this one.
Freddie deBoer
I find it consistently weird how you are preemptively angry about all this stuff. It’s not that you are constantly discourse policing; go for it. It’s that you do it before people say the things you are claiming they are going to say. It’s like you want to see what you say you don’t want to see.
Cain
We should all wait till WyldParrot weighs in on the conversation.
Constance
I just read several articles about the ability of black tea to reduce cortisol levels thus reducing stress. Instead of thinking about my Social Security and my Medicare being ripped away by vicious right wing christians, tea party drubs, republicans and libertarians I’m going to fix breakfast, eat and follow with a cup of healthy black tea. Then I will go to work, listening to music from a CD in the car instead of the news on NPR.
There. I feel better already.
Chinn Romney
I just love this tactic of creating a hysterical strawman to preempt anyone who dares suggest our fearless leader is anything less than infallible. It’s a nice complement to the 11th dimensional chess defense. And both are refreshing compared to the tired knee jerk shriek of ‘racist’.
EconWatcher
My first thought was that Obama knows that the Republicans will not take any deal that involves new revenues, so he may as well at least hint at the broadest range of cuts so that they will look even more unreasonable when they tank the negotiations.
NobodySpecial
I love the way people are suddenly sure that the GOP won’t settle for less than the full immediate destruction of the New Deal when they’ve been quite patiently cutting the ground out from underneath it and snipping away bits here and there for two generations.
That’s okay, if people are wrong, I’m sure their apologies will be at least able to be printed on paper and burned in a barrel to keep warm.
Han's Solo
@EconWatcher: Me too. Further, say the GOP surprises us and doesn’t act like a toddler with a full diaper, what then?
Then any agreement has to go through Congress, and does anyone see Congress passing huge entitlement cuts?
Poopyman
Well, after the initial knee–jerk reaction, I went over to FDL to see how I should feel about this. There’s a predictably apocalyptic post, but it heavily quotes the predictably apocalyptic WaPo. Other than that, things are pretty sanguine over there. Now I’m thinking I should start worrying.
John Cole
I don’t get this. What about this post suggests anger?
I watched twitter and memeorandum blow up over unsourced stuff in the WaPo, and all I said was I will wait for something to happen. Why is that angry, or crazy, or “Policing discourse.”
There used to be a time when progressives and liberals thought newspaper reports with anonymous quotes from unnamed administration people were unreliable. Now I am hippie-punching and “angry” for following the same rules.
OzoneR
I’ve long advocated letting the Republican majority wreck its havoc on the country any way they want. Only then will people fully see who these guys are and they’ll either A.) banish them in exile forever or B.) approve of their savagery.
If you like SS, don’t vote Republican, if you want to cut SS, vote Republican.
Elections must have consequences.
Delia
You’re no fun anymore.
Zifnab
On the one hand, freaking out at Obama was so 2010 and I don’t want to be behind the times. It’s not like the White House has ever compromised from a moderate position down to a GOP-friendly position and called it a liberal victory, so we shouldn’t have anything to worry about, right?
On the other hand, it gets a little obnoxious seeing a dead-locked Congress and White House float trial balloons and watch half the liberal blogosphere shit pandas at the vaguest mention of an entitlement program.
middlewest
This again? How many times have “sources” told us Obama is ending the new deal? Does anyone ever learn anything?
JPL
John, The silent majority agrees with you. It might be time to take a deep breath and do some weeding.
Zifnab
I think German liberals tried that in the mid 30s. They were all “Haha! By dissolving the Reichstagg and invading the Rhineland, the National Socialists have finally gone to far. Now the German people will surely rise up in protest! What’s that? Hop in this cattle car you say? Well, I should warn you, you’re only putting yourself in a tighter spot. Stupid Nazis.”
numbskull
There’s nothing wrong with people sending the Whitehouse a nice fax stating that IF the NYT and WaPO reports are true, then this bargaining approach is disappointing. There is nothing wrong with letting your elected officials know your stance on a topic while they are still forming policy. Indeed, when would you do it otherwise? AFTER the deal is struck?
Zifnab
I think German liberals tried that in the mid 30s. They were all “Haha! By dissolving the Reichstagg and invading the Rhineland, the National Socia lists have finally gone to far. Now the German people will surely rise up in protest! What’s that? Hop in this cattle car you say? Well, I should warn you, you’re only putting yourself in a tighter spot. Stupid Nazis.”
Nikki
I just keep reflecting back to when the House was running the government shutdown and Obama gave them cuts everyone thought amounted to billions, but actually came down to millions. If people want to believe that Obama is going destroy SS to get the debt ceiling raised, more power to them.
liberal
jon wrote,
LOL.
First, “a decade or so”? Please provide a cite for that.
Second, “money put in” is meaningless given that the Republicans are quite willing to raid the Trust Fund.
Larime the Gimp
From an actual economic person at the GOS:
As expected, there’s a whole lot of people shitting themselves, which is why I was drawn to the more lucid and actually analytical post.
Perhaps he really is a Zen master.
kindness
With all due respect John, who here is surprised by this rumor? And honestly I for one am not shocked and actually believe it.
Now a better question is ‘What does President Obama expect to gain from bargaining away Social Security, MediCare & MediCaid cuts?’ Frankly, it just reinforces to me that Obama is an idiot negotiator. Obama will shit on his base hoping to look like an adult and gain the support of moderate Republicans. Moderate republicans who will never in a million years vote for President Obama. And more importantly, since Obama seems to have no problem fucking his base up the yahoo, who is going to be left to drive his 2012 campaign? He’s eliminating the protecting Social Security, Medicare campaign for Democrats to use.
Sorry John. I’m not going to freak out but I probably won’t help him get elected next time either. Case of biting off nose to spite face? Yes but fuck them. I can’t support a moran, even a Democratic one.
liberal
Zifnab wrote,
Probably not the only historical evidence, either.
RalfW
This.
Taking off from the Tim’s thread, Frum is part of the meme-plant. He called for rebellion from the left. This is to destabilize Obama’s base so that he has no friends on either side in this epic fight.
That’s the game, folks. Stay strong. Don’t panic. Panic leads to terrible decisions.
Joe Bauers
Whatever turd sandwich comes out of this, once people get a taste of it and don’t like it, it would be nice if the message were sent loudly and consistently that this is what happens when you elect Republicans. A forced choice between low taxes for billionaires paid for by squeezing the poor, or global economic catastrophe.
But that would be uncivil and shrill, so it won’t happen.
Poopyman
@Poopyman:
To update: At least the comments over there are equating Obama to Chamberlain AND Hindenburg (Just in the first 7 comments!), so I feel better now.
OzoneR
A little different in that scenario seeing as 1930s Germany didn’t have things like elections…unless you think the GOP will regain power and make themselves dictators for life.
I’m of the opinion that if the GOP really did what it wants, the people would whine, but be otherwise ok with it, but at least then we can stop defending people who don’t want to be defended, and put our energy somewhere else.
OzoneR
Even the freakshow at The Nation admits Independents will be swayed by this
http://www.thenation.com/blog/161846/entitlements-table-obama-plans-go-big-budget-deal
ronin122
I appreciate the heads up. This is why I come here before going to GOS, to know whether or not to avoid that place for a day or two.
stuckinred
“I can’t support a moran, even a Democratic one.”
you can’t spell it either
RalfW
numbskull @31
Good idea.
White House Phone Numbers
Comments: 202-456-1111
Switchboard: 202-456-1414
FAX: 202-456-2461
Poopyman
@Larime the Gimp:
Yeah, Jed has a nice summary over there. Note also the Boehner vs Cantor subplot.
liberal
kindness wrote,
This is exactly the point. While the actual dollar amounts Obama may be proposing are small, WTF is SS even on the table?
And the retort “he has to do something to get the Rethuglicans to raise the debt limit” is nonsense. Yglesias pointed out many times that in this instance, the President holds more cards than Congress. All Obama had to do is repeat over and over, “I will not sign any bill to raise the debt ceiling that has any strings attached.” (Note to Memwhatsherface: stating it once and then caving is not the same thing.)
Sko Hayes
Yeah, the source on the WaPo article was something along the lines of “a Democrat official familiar with the administration’s thinking”, whatever the hell that means.
On the Ugly GOP front,I read a Tweet this morning from Red State that said:
Yes, by all means, let the GOP throw our economy in the tank again and see what happens.
Han's Solo
Let me play “Johny Wishbone” here and predict that when this is all done we will see Andrew Sullivan, once again, type the words, “Meep Meep.”
Many on the left who are now grinding their teeth, pulling out their hair and squealing like children will realize all their wailing was uncalled for and that the deal was much better than they thought it would be.
I’ll go further and say that the Republicans will come out of this with egg on their face. Independent voters will not like the way the GOP is behaving.
Berto
I’ll believe it when I see it (2011) = Sooner or later we’ll have to see the proof about Saddam’s WMDs or there will be no war (2003).
liberal
OzoneR wrote,
LOL.
drunken hausfrau
stuck in red — do you not know all the internet traditions?
Poopyman
@Stuck
Are you not aware of all internet traditions? It all started with this.
NobodySpecial
OzoneR
Please stop showing your idiocy in public.
Marc
It’s pretty bizarre to attack John for a preemptive strike when he links to a page filled with over-the-top freakouts already in progress.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
Get a brain, moran!
Jennifer
Who are these fabled “independents” and do they do their own digging for news? Because if they don’t, they only know what’s reported on the TV and in the papers like everyone else. Which may explain why they voted Republican in 2010 – because they were convinced that Obama had raised their taxes and pushed through a government takeover of health care that included death panels.
What makes anyone think they’ll hear an accurate accounting of this?
While I think others are going over-the-top freaking out about this, I think John and some of you here aren’t concerned enough. Remember when Democrats had the chance to run on deficit reduction by modestly raising marginal tax rates on millionaires and billionaires, and how that worked out – with a new Republican batshit majority in the House? The same majority, in fact, that has brought us to the present pass? I wouldn’t get over-confident right now.
OzoneR
Yglesias is very wrong
Quiddity
John Cole doesn’t care about the concerns of those who are receiving Social Security benefits.
Linda Featheringill
John Cole:
Hooray for the wait-and-see approach. Very sane.
It’s nice to see that the meds are working now. :-)
JenJen
@geg6
It really does pain me to say this, but isn’t he kind of part of the Village now? Or at least spending some time in the Village? Renting, perhaps, instead of owning?
Poopyman
@me: and Rusty:
I wonder if that guy is aware he’s an icon. Oh wait! I said “aware”.
Never mind.
OzoneR
then what? stating it twice, three times, 45 times? At what point is it ok “to cave”
bondirotta
How DARE you not to freak out?
gnomedad
I assume Obama understands that if he sold the National Park system to Koch Industries, he would still be called a soshulist.
Jay B.
Meanwhile, unemployment still matters more than a phony debt problem.
Anyway, I’m sure since is just GOP propaganda aimed to force a defensive posture from the Administrstion, it’s more proof of the messaging genius of the White House.
And you and the nation are delusional if you think any entitlement cuts, even nominal ones are popular. Litera
Dave
POSTURING. CENTRIST, ABOVE-THE-FRAY POSTURING. Ha ha, just kidding. Burn the place down if SS gets screwed, tho.
Southern Beale
I’m holding off on the Social Security freak out too, though if the Dems call me for fundraising (they’ve been doing it for the past 2 weeks and I’ve been studiously avoiding picking up the phone), I plan to mention it to them. They shouldn’t even put it out there into the public discourse that they are considering this. There should be NO doubt in anyone’s mind where the Dems stand on this issue.
And while I’m on the topic, why the fuck can’t the Democrats make a case for anything? Anything at all? Boehner handed Obama the perfect opportunity yesterday with his “where are the jobs” question and Obama floundered around like a fish on the line. How about answering, “you tell me? These are YOUR policies we’ve been following for the pat 10 years.”
geg6
Well, St. Glenn says it’s so, so it must be:
http://www.salon.com/news/budget_showdown/index.html?story=/opinion/greenwald/2011/07/07/social_security
Sko Hayes
Okay, this is going just like the budget talks a few months ago- I’m sure we all remember the great freakout over “Social Security cuts and more tax giveaways” and OMG, Obama is a Republican, and OMG, we’re DOOMED.
Then, when the dust settled, it turned out that there were about $368 million in actual cuts to the budget and the rest was eliminating money that hadn’t been spent yet, and the Republican base was pissed.
Did we hear anything from the freakout crowd? FDL? Open Left? Hellloooo??? Not a peep.
Because if something isn’t done now, by 2037, reimbursement rates will have to be cut by 25%.
Have you not been paying attention the last two years?
http://www.ssa.gov/oact/trsum/index.html
biff diggerence
The White House is already walking this back.
(Post piece “overshot the runway”)
geg6
Sorry, JenJen, must be my snark fail. Yes, the whole point was that he’s become what he used to point and laugh at.
NobodySpecial
SB
There are people here on this supposed bastion of liberalism who are fine with breaking the New Deal right now to keep Republicans from winning. They either have the mistaken idea that they will be able to bring it back from the dead, or they never cared much about it in the first place. I suspect the latter.
Anyways, if that’s your ‘left’, then what are your ‘moderate’ Dems gonna do in Congress? Defend SS and Medicare? Hardly. They’ll leave it to unserious liberals like Nancy, cut her legs out from under her in negotiations, and Obama will be happy because he’ll be sure 2012 is his, even though 2012 was his before anyone said a word about SS cuts.
Southern Beale
@Poopyman & @Stuck –
I have a lovely collection of American Morans at my old blog.
Martin
We had a discussion last night about the the cost of living index adjustment shifting from CPI to C-CPI.
I’m sure CS and JSF will be shocked to learn that I don’t see a problem shifting to C-CPI as a more accurate measure of COL.
Southern Beale
@NobodySpecial –
I fail to see how breaking the New Deal keeps the Republicans from winning. Republicans have been trying to do that for the past 80 years. And if they goad the Democrats into doing it, then turn around and say “hey it wasn’t us!,” the Democrats are bigger idiots than anyone could imagine.
Han's Solo
@Sko Hayes: I couldn’t agree more.
People freaking out right now must not understand how our government works. Obama can’t dictate laws, Congress has to pass them, and Congress isn’t going to pass anything with huge cuts to the social safety net. It just won’t happen. They may make changes around the edges, adjust the funding mechanism or make other small changes that effect few people, but they won’t do a thing that will harm the programs that Democrats have fought for tirelessly for the better part of a century.
Bill H.
What’s with all the restraint here? What did you do with all the KOS trolls? Where is the guy pointing out that when there was the “leak” about Obama cutting a deal to extend the Bush tax cuts for two years that it turned out to be true? Come on, guys, I want some blood in the water.
Don’t you read Greenwald any more? He points out that this was Obama’s agenda all along and, referencing Matt Tiabbi and Frank Rich, that we should have seen it in his campaign.
My blog remains silent, as I also prefer to discuss events rather than rumors. I look less like an idiot that way, although I can make an idiot of myself even with events.
John Weiss
“And of course Austin is an oasis in the middle of crazy Texas.”
@balconesfault: Typical neo-Austinite thing to say, as if folks in the major Texas cities were as crazy as the folks in East Texas!
Cris (without an H)
I have to get back to real work now, but thanks for the spit-take.
BudP
Weeping and Wailing and Moaning and Gnashing of Teeth
My rep is Joe Walsh, so I clicked.
OzoneR
I’m not sure why the left can’t seem to understand that for many people, the two aren’t mutually exclusive.
Linda Featheringill
quiddity #60
I receive SS and I care. But tell me something, how did you manage to survive this long without having a little warning light that says “It is possible that someone is pulling your chain”?
Very useful gadgets, those little warning lights.
PeakVT
Because if something isn’t done now, by 2037
That’s bullshit. The tweak needed to keep SS solvent forever according to current projections is small and can be done any time in the next decade. But the current projections could be wrong. SS outlays have usually come in below the projections, so it could be that is SS solvent forever under its current rules.
There’s no justifiable reason to include SS in the current budget and debt discussions.
OzoneR
I’m not sure how that’s making the case of anything, especially since 2009-2010 were Democratic policies, not Republican. That would be a terrible answer.
Fang
Yeah, I saw this too. The usual freak-outs occurred, the usual “I hate Obama” posts occurred. So predictable.
This got me thinking.
I’m one of those people that suspects Obama is deliberately planning to be a one-term president. With the Republican Clown Car heading to nominate some wingnut, he can be sure of the fear factor in getting people to vote against Republicans. With enough of a liberal base he can be sure some people will vote Democrat period. He just has to step aside at the last moment for a more-liberal seeming candidate to lock up the liberal I-hate-Obama vote.
amk
perpetual preemptive poutrage is the usp of keyboard kommandos
David in NY
A half-hour ago, the White House basically denied the whole thing. Cole has a point. Keep your powder dry. Might call your Senators and Reps and tell them to keep their hands off SS and Medicare-Medicaid, however.
The most recent news, 10:38, EDT:
aisce
preconceived notions remain preconceived!
WyldPirate
@Zifnab:
You’ll still have the reliable diots like Cain,FlipyrWhig and Mnemosyme and the rest of the reliable Obots applying their pretzel logic about how Mr. SuperPrez Obama is going to swoop in and save the day after he capitulates yet again.
Then ABL and Dennis G will make a few dozen posts blaming it all on “Whitey the Cracker” and many tears of guilt and remorse will be shed on the page–along with the requisite wishes of death for many who don’t have any idea of what is going on–that it is the rich that have bought and paid for the entire government that are pulling Obama’s strings just like the pulled most of the strings throughout US history.
NobodySpecial
SB:
I don’t see it, either. For that I’ve been labeled ‘unserious’ and given various advices on animal husbandry of unguents by the fine citizens of this blog.
Like Peak said, there’s no reason to discuss SS at all, and doing so only strengthens the GOP if they choose to take it. Now any adjustment will be trumpeted by the GOP for the next year as Democrats cutting SS, which helps Dems get elected in some 11-D way that I must be too dumb to see.
MBunge
“Yglesias pointed out many times that in this instance, the President holds more cards than Congress. All Obama had to do is repeat over and over, “I will not sign any bill to raise the debt ceiling that has any strings attached.””
Which means the entire global economy would STILL be held hostage by the GOP, except this approach relies on them being reasonable and rational enough to accept political defeat and humiliation rather than burn it all down. Who wants to take that bet? And, of course, even if they did back down on the debt limit, a budget still has to be passed. Do you think that being bitchslapped over the debt limit and the Tea Party mother-of-all-meltdowns that would follow would make the GOP more or less likely to agree to a new budget?
Mike
drkrick
I very much doubt there were many 2008 Dem voters who bought the death panel-type disinformation, although it probably did a nice job of upping GOP turnout about historic levels for a mid-term.
The people who voted GOP in 2010 were almost entirely the people who voted GOP 2008. The difference in results was more driven by people who voted Dem in 2008 who either: (1) stayed home as ususal because they almost never bother to vote in mid-terms; or (2) stayed home because they bought into the “Obama is no better than Bush, we didn’t get universal single-payer/DADT abolished on 1/21/09/[insert favorite betrayal here]” line coming from whatever combination of the purist left and Rovian provocateurs that have been pushing it since the summer of ’09.
handsmile
Han’s Solo (#23):
does anyone see Congress passing huge entitlement cuts?
Well, I’m raising my hand as one who can see Congress passing the level of entitlement cuts that is being reported in the debt limit negotiations. In my political thesaurus, that denotes “huge.”
I adore Nancy Pelosi and will get my butt off this chair to help ensure that she returns as House majority leader. House rules severely circumscribe the legislative operations of the minority party. (Its power is conferred only by the Village media, a privilege evidently reserved for the Republican Party).
Do we then rely on the robust Senate leadership of Harry Reid to scuttle legislation enfeebling Social Security/Medicare/Medicaid or cementing tax loopholes? I trust you’ve read Ben Nelson’s recent statement endorsing significant entitlement “reform” instead of revenue measures.
Military history is not my forte, but the ranks of brave Congressional Democrats seem rather depleted to withstand the campaign of entitlement destruction unleashed by the GOP Mongols.
In a latter comment (#50) you write: “independents will not like the way the GOP is behaving.” I must say you are more sanguine than I on the effect of memory retention in the decision-making of “independent” voters.
Linnaeus
I mentioned this in the open thread last night and said that I didn’t have a good feeling about the situation, but was going to wait to hear more. There was a pretty decent discussion in that thread, and as more information comes out, I’m feeling less nervous about it.
That said, I’m with folks like Jennifer and Southern Beale; no, the adminstration isn’t wrecking the New Deal, but any mention of SS and/or Medicare cuts is in of itself a big deal, given the social and historical importance of those programs. It should always be absolutely clear where Democrats stand on them.
Davis X. Machina
Everyone’s read Kevin Drum’s piece, right?
Politics. It’s about the power. Or the not-power.
Linda Featheringill
handsmile #95
You’re still reading Ben Nelson? Why?
Southern Beale
@NobodySpecial –
Bullshit. The Republicans are going all out talking about how SS is a drag on the economy and how we need to “wean people off of it” (that was Michele Bachmann) and “means testing” (that was Pawlenty.) They’re all talking about how it’s going to go belly up if we don’t DO something. Every single GOP candidate is talking about it.
Democrats absolutely have to counter this spin. But again, they always go around it all wrong, conceding to Republican “facts” and talking points instead of laying out an alternative. How come no one every talks about raising the SS cap? Why is that? Why does no one ever say, “instead of paying SS on your first $100,000 of income, raise that to $250,000 or $500,000.”
Democrats shouldn’t be on record as anything OTHER than solidly defending this program, 100%.
Southern Beale
Fuck you, Kevin Drum.
Loviatar
CLAP CLAP CLAP
Comrade Dread
I’d like to assume that unless he has some pretty horrific and incompetent political advisers, Obama has to know that cutting Social Security and Medicare in a recession is going to alienate Seniors, near-Seniors, liberals, and every younger voter who now has to cut more into their personal budget to help their parents live.
I’d also like to assume that he knows that if he does that, his political legacy will be ruined, the GOP would run against Democratic cuts to entitlements, and we’d probably end up with Bachmann/Perry.
That said, the cuts probably will happen, they probably won’t be as bad as the bloggers are hyperventilating about, but they will suck, and the overall economic effect of this budget deal will be bad in the short term (and near long term), and we’re probably get a GOP ticket in 2012 anyway.
And when that happens, I think I’ll drop out, go live with the Amish, learn to farm, and wait for the apocalypse.
kindness
OK, so I’m in for a little more. Do I think this is a push by some on the right to actually get what the right wants and scatter & piss off the Democratic base? Yes, of course it is. But that does not mean I don’t believe this administration isn’t actually doing just that as well. Sorry, but with the history of the Obama Administration’s negotiating tactics, this trading Social Security, Medicare & Medicaid cuts in order to raise the Federal debt level isn’t so far fetched to me.
What I would really prefer is for Obama to come out and call the bluff. Say the republicans are trying to push the US into bankrupcy in order to attain their desired goals of gutting New Deal programs and that Obama will use the 14th Ammendment and fund the government without Congressional action. Tell the Republicans to go fuck themselves. That is when I’ll really want to make popcorn, pull up a chair and watch MSM & Republithugs heads explode in a huge freak out from the right. That is what a Democratic President should be doing right now.
PaulW
When dealing with obstructive mofos like the current GOP, I think you need to re-align the negotiating process. Instead of giving the GOP more of their demands, start giving more of yours: more tax loophole closures, more tax hikes on billionaires, more money for Medicare and Medicaid, etc.
They shouldn’t be the only ones moving the damn goalposts all the time.
If you keep making harsher liberal demands, just maybe they’ll FINALLY accept a more moderate compromise instead of insisting on more conservative domination.
And if it fails, use the 14th Amendment. So there. >:-)
jaleh
John,
You sound so much like my husband, he never gets excited and always wants proof and facts…yikes!
Lawnguylander
@Freddie deBoer
Look back a few posts. On this very blog we have a pundit flowchart that goes from the Washington Post to David Frum to TPM to Tim F to commenters. It splits off at various points to other blogs, Twitter, etc. It’s your own fault if you’ve fallen behind and what a pity it is for everyone that you’re not up to speed. First, buy into the WaPo’s tactical unsourced speculation, then gleefully accept David Frum’s echoing of simplistic left wing narratives about Obama’s negotiating tactics. Next, echo back to the right wing and corporate media their decades long disdain for the Democrats’ weakness. This way they know you’re playing ball and you’ll be almost caught up. The production and distribution of futile rage has never been so efficient or so bipartisan so there’s no excuse for falling behind.
Someone accused Tim F of taking Frum’s bait in his thread, but it’s not bait Frum is offering, it’s material for the punditry supply chain.
Han's Solo
@handsmile: Per the Hill article posted an hour ago:
Sorry, no way in hell Congress will pass big cuts in the social safety net. It won’t happen. They may agree to raise the Social Security Cap from 106K, but most Democrats are fine with that and have been for a long time.
LorenzoStDuBois
I know my kind isn’t welcome around here.
But hope springs eternal, to me, that as the overwhelming evidence accumulates that the Obama Presidency is the worst thing that has happened to America in my lifetime, that one-by-one, Balloon Juicers (I used to love this blog until I changed my mind about Obama) will see what seems so clear to me now.
I could have told you in 2008 that if McCain-Palin were elected, we would keep open Gitmo, triple our involvement in Afghanistan, start an illegal war in Libya, escalate exponentially bloody and child-killing drone campaigns across Somalia, Yemen and Pakistan, extend the Bush tax cuts, escalate the corporate standardization of schools and attack teachers, shift the supreme court to the right, and gut social security and medicare. We would all have been horrified. But it happened anyway.
Dems are doing exactly what they want to do (look at who pays them, not what they say – they’re politicians, you rubes!) and they will count on us being scared of Michelle Bachman in 2012. Well, at least then we would have liberals again. Now we have more wars and are losing our safety nets, and nobody is stopping it because a Dem is in the WH. So no, I’m not scared of a Republican, and it’s time you all stopped falling for it as well.
Davis X. Machina
@Southern Beale: I noticed it was ‘Fuck you’, and not ‘You’re wrong…’
BTD
Time for a “Don’t Worry, He’s Got it!” post.
WyldPirate
@Southern Beale:
This is what I’m talking about when I mentioned my acquaintances and friends that worked for Obama in 2008 in NC.
You’re in Tennessee where Obama doesn’t have a prayer of winning. I’m in NC where he won by less than 15K votes. I just don’t see any way that he wins NC again given how fired up the Rethugs are and how demoralized many Dems are with what has happened in the last two years. I see the same thing happening in many toss-up states as well.
You throw in dismal unemployment numbers plus any deals that Obama makes to fuck the old and the poor and Obama’s prospects get more dismal.
cleek
golly, the perma-outraged are outraged… whocouldaknowed!
the self-righteous hair-tearing from the self-appointed-base is already too fucking much. 18 more months of their spoiled-child antics is far more than i can handle.
gotta say, i’ve been looking for something to push me away from political blogs. and i think this might just be it.
Han's Solo
@Comrade Dread: If the only change in SS is a raise in the Social Security Cap would you still be off to join the Amish?
kindness
WyldPirate #91: That’s so racist. It’s uncalled for. Do you kiss your family with that mind?
WyldPirate
@LorenzoStDuBois:
Hang in there, dude. These people need to be shaken out of their Obama fantasies. They’re basically good folks.
lacp
The Great Budget Debate certainly has the “less filling/tastes great” thing going. Bigger spending cuts vs. higher taxes? Aren’t both of these really bad ideas in an economic situation as shaky as the one we’re in?
Mnemosyne
You rang? I see you still didn’t bother to read the story I linked you to since you’re still insisting it was only “stating it once and then caving.”
But I know you can’t get through your day without brooding about how Obama is going to betray you this time, so suppose I should just let it go.
LorenzoStDuBois
Seems to me that people who predict things correctly, like Ian Welsh, have more credibility than people who don’t.
Was Balloon Juice calling this last fall? (Not a rhetorical question; please provide a link if you have one.)
http://www.ianwelsh.net/stating-the-obvious-obama-wants-to-gut-social-security/
handsmile
JenJen (#62):
Well, Josh Marshall was a guest on Keith Olbermann’s Current TV-version of “Countdown” on Tuesday night. He was impertinently agreeing with his shrill host on the inexplicable nature of Obama’s debt ceiling negotiations.
So even if it’s true that he’s “renting” in the Village, it still must be in a pretty disreputable part of town.
[Private Comment (no one else read, OK)}: I sent you an email recently at your TW address. Is that still operative?
JenJen
@geg6 (#73) No, I picked up your snark and piled on, actually. :-)
@handsmile Yes, that’s still my email, will go check spam folder! FYI, I planned my whole day yesterday around USA-Sweden and sorta wish I hadn’t. :-(
Citizen_X
You’re two years old?
Rick Taylor
While I agree, I don’t trust the Washington Post in this matter, at the same time, I don’t like the idea of private negotiations by our leaders to sort out such big decisions a couple weeks before a deadline. It’s not exactly democratic.
Han's Solo
@Citizen_X: Now now, don’t insult two year olds.
Comrade Dread
@ Han’s Solo
No, I’ll probably be heading down to Hell’s Ski Resort for the awesome fresh powder.
LorenzoStDuBois
Wait, I found an even more prescient Ian Welsh link:
http://www.ianwelsh.net/how-the-next-4-years-will-play-out/
WyldPirate
@kindness:
Apparently you don’t read the comments in Dengre’s or ABLs rants about whatever injustices “Whitey the Cracker” has perpetrated.
“The South is all full of treasonous morons”
“the fat, hood-wearing fuckers should all go DIAF”
This and far worse comments are common themes in the comment sections of their posts. Go ahead and use teh Google and see for yourself. Lot’s of paint slapped around with a very broad brush.
Mnemosyne
Also, for the people freaking out about Social Security not needing any fixes at all, would that mean that Obama kowtowed to the Republicans if he proposed raising the salary cap from $106K to $250K, a move that people like Krugman have been touting for years? Would increasing revenue for SS be a “win” for Republicans and just more proof that Obama Sold You Out?
Social Security does need some adjustments to be able to keep giving people the same level of benefits in the next 20 years and denying that makes you look like an idiot, but “adjustments” =/= cuts.
arguingwithsignposts
@LorenzoStDuBois:
You, sir, are an idiot.
ETA: Or you’re 2 years old. In which case, you may have a point.
ETA2: I see Citizen X did the math before me.
ETA3: I know, I know … Dear Leader, Blind Obat, yada yada.
MattR
@LorenzoStDuBois: I want to make sure I have this straight. Ian Welsh speculates about something a year ago. Currently there is similar speculation. That is proof that Ian Welsh predicts things correctly?
@Mnemosyne: It would be great if those are the changes that end up occurring. But let’s just say that when I see Obama buying into the right wing frame about our deficit and out of control spending, it does not give me a warm fuzzy that he understands where things really stand and what really needs to be done to improve our economy and it makes me wonder if he is going to accept the right wing frame about what changes are needed for Social Security and/or Medicare. I hope that I am wrong, but if I had to place a bet my money would be on “bad” cuts being made to one or both of those programs.
gwangung
I noticed that, too.
In my view, it’s not the the more progressive elements are wrong (they’re entirely right). It’s that they’re working from a base that’s smaller than they think and they aren’t working enough to expand it; they aren’t working on the moderate indepenents themselves.
shortstop
Nothing.
FlipYrWhig
I don’t think there’s more than a handful of people left in American political commentary who are capable of understanding that “cuts” are not the same as “benefit cuts,” and neither is the same as “cuts to vital services.” The shit-fit is fucking stupid. It’d be like throwing a fit that no longer purchasing $400 toilet seats for the military was a “cut” endangering national security. These motherfuckers have to calm. down.
Linda Featheringill
wyld
Mark this on your calendar. I am defending you.
I didn’t see anything racist in your comments at #91.
Is it racist if I don’t agree with ABL? Is it racist if ABL doesn’t agree with me? What the hey?
Wyld, maybe you could ignore this particular criticism and continue being your usual, charming self. :-)
LorenzoStDuBois
I get it guys. When Bush or Republicans get up and speak, I hate them. And when Obama or some Democrats speak, it makes me love them and gets me fired up.
But look at what’s actually happening. Things are getting way worse. And this time around there’s no opposition outside of the Tea Partiers. Yes, things are worse now.
Try this: hit the mute button when the pols speak (including our Nobel Laureate Drone Bomber). Don’t watch their choreographed press conferences and SOTU speeches. Things suddenly get a lot clearer.
Mnemosyne
Not when income disparity is higher now than it was before the crash of 1929. People at the top can absolutely spare a little extra change right now, and any talk about them “going Galt” and withholding their productivity is complete bullshit.
Citizen_X
I never can understand this complaint. Law making requires negotiation, and constant counting and re-counting of votes. If every instance of sausage-making in a representative democracy is made visible and public, then we will have all 535 congresspeople grandstanding and posturing 24 hours a day. This will be accompanied by an exponential increase in blogospheric rage orgies. No thanks.
handsmile
Han’s Solo (#107):
Thanks for your response. The issue is not the indignation or formidability of their statements to the media. The matter rests on their prescribed legislative powers (in the case of Pelosi as House minority leader) and their record of resolve on controversial policies (in the case of Reid as invertebrate).
I appreciate your conviction that congressional Democrats will not abandon their party’s proud legislative history, and would like to share it. But in my personal theology of hell, many current Democratic officeholders are already simmering in satanic vats.
Han's Solo
@LorenzoStDuBois: You want to know what makes things clearer? Putting down the crack pipe.
If you seriously think Obama is the worst thing that has ever happened to this country you need therapy.
What things? Be specific, and tell us why you think Obama is at fault. Don’t tell us about what some right wing (or faux left wing) commentator injected into your fevered little mind, list actual things and tell us why we should blame Obama.
Bullshit. You sound like one of those Republicans that only care about optics. You want Obama to throw tissy fits every time he doesn’t get exactly what that moron Hamsher wants, that isn’t who we elected. “No Drama Obama” isn’t some fool who lets his temper get in the way of what is best for this country. During the campaign he said, many times, that we can’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. And to say that there is no opposition except for the teabaggers just shows what side you are really on.
DIAF troll.
Mnemosyne
After all, that exact plan is how President McGovern swept into office in 1968.
Jesus fuck, has the left learned absolutely fucking nothing in the past 40 years? We really have to fall back on the exact same plans that were disastrous failures 40 years ago but this time we’ll clap our hands and wish rilly rilly hard and this time they’ll totally work out?
kindness
Wyld, Linda:
It was this: Then ABL and Dennis G will make a few dozen posts blaming it all on “Whitey the Cracker”
That I call uncalled for and yea, using it in the terms it came across as suggesting ABL is racist. That is what I call racist.
Han's Solo
@handsmile: I certainly agree that some Democratic lawmakers are evil little shits (Nelson, Ben) but I’m not counting on them.
I’m counting on the Republican House not being able to gather the votes needed to pass any debt ceiling increase regardless of what is in the bill. In other words, the GOP will need a LOT of Democratic votes to get anything through the house. Also too, a relatively small number of Democratic Senators could easily filibuster any large cut in the social safety net. And that is exactly what they would do.
Mike
Well, I’m not panicking just yet… we need to see the final details. That being said, I’m going to make sure that the white house and my congresscritters hear from me now before any deal is in place. If there is enough pushback, it may prevent problems down the line.
Smedley the uncertain
mnemosyne pretty well nails it at #127.
Reply not working here again.
S
lacp
Mnemosyne, I agree that the wealthy can cough up some $$ and never miss them. Unfortunately they seem to be the one group in the country that nobody will go after. Public funding of elections (which I doubt I’ll live to see) would go a long way towards correcting that problem.
Berto
Those who equate Obama with Bush will understand that Obama can’t lead as a liberal due to him having to work with the Blue Dogs in Congress the same day that Obambots understand Obama was a Blue Dog in Congress.
Telecomm immunity today, telecomm immunity tomorrow, telecomm immunity forever!
BlizzardOfOz
Nothing to say, eh Cole? Stealing from American workers’ retirement funds to pay for bankster handouts, tax cuts for the wealthy, and murderous, carpetbagging wars across the globe. Where does that fit in to your fucking game of 11 dimensional chess? Fucking asshole.
Mike
Well, that’s been the Democratic playbook for decades, kicking their voters in the nuts and saying that you have no choice but to vote for lesser of two evils. The reason why Obama got so much support in 2008 was that he turned that strategy on his head and said, “Vote for me because you want to, not because you have to.” Foolishly, we thought the guy would be different, but we’re all the way back to nut kicking again. He’s going to have a rough time ‘cos a lot of those first time 2008 Obama voters will again stay home having been sold out by the Democratic party again.
All is not lost. In 2004, things seemed lost forever, and then Howard Dean resurrected the party by going back to its roots. Someone in the future will rise up again to challenge the DLC folk like Obama has become and we’ll get a chance again. Still, it’s very disappointing to have someone that you trusted throw it all away.
Who would have thought in 2008 that we would have a Democratic president actively advocating gutting Social Security. Horrible… horrible…
dogwood
Ok, if I’ve got this straight. When George W. was president, liberals were concerned about the deficit he was accumulating. Republicans scoffed and said deficits don’t matter. Now that Obama is president, the GOP is freaking out about deficits and the liberals are channeling their inner Cheney. That’s part of the reason a vast number of intelligent Americans don’t pay much attention to politics. Neither side can get their story straight.
OzoneR
We don’t have a Democratic president actively advocating “gutting” Social Security.
Omnes Omnibus
Give me an on-the-record quotation from Obama to support that. Hell, give me an on-the-record quotation from a named official in the administration to support that. A remark saying everything is on the table does not constitute advocating gutting something BTW.
Nutella
In addition to talking about this here, can we all send messages to Obama, Pelosi, and our senators and representatives encouraging them to do the right thing? They’re getting lots of pressure from the other side.
And I don’t think we should be too sanguine about any of this, either. The entire negotiation, that the administration is participating in with enthusiasm, is based on the false and dangerous idea that the debt is an evil thing that must be killed now.
So do what you can to add a little pressure to the correct side before July 22 rolls around and the deal (whatever it turns out to be) is done.
Joel
@kindness
What, exactly, would you call yourself? Asshole fits.
OzoneR
the debt limit is based on the false and dangerous idea that the debt is an evil thing that must be killed now, but since it exists, we need to deal with it.
RalfW
The only way that is possible is if you are two years old. You type well for a toddler.
liberal
@117 Memwhatsherface blithered,
You’re pathetic. Of course he caved. If he didn’t cave, why is he negotiating?
Derf
ADP non-farm payroll numbers today doubled analysts expectations. Where is the breathless headline from John Galt Cole? Just like he did when the last numbers came out worse than expected. Is this not enough evidence for all you lemmings that John Galt Cole is nothing but a Greenwald reading idiot?
But no, that’s not bad news so why should a naive libertard like Cole care about that. No let’s focus on the latest feined pro left outrage over the latest pre-emptive strike on Obama over non-info about what hasn’t happened yet. Just like the last time.
You are so predicable John Galt Cole. It’s getting boring being able to predict your horseshit day after day.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-07/u-s-stock-index-futures-extend-gains-after-adp-report-shows-jobs-growth.html
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-07/jobless-claims-in-u-s-decreased-more-than-forecast-last-week-to-418-000.html
Han's Solo
@dogwood:
Um, no, I almost wish the Democrats would come out and say, “Deficits, in the short term, don’t matter. Turning around the economy and increasing employment is what matters, in the short term.”
But most of them don’t say that. Economists do, but most Democrats are going along with the deficit reduction hysteria fueled by the GOP.
Let me rephrase, in the long term deficits are a huge f’n deal, in the short term, not so much.
RalfW
@lacp
Nope. Targeted tax increases, or more to my liking, the ending of huge tax expenditures (“tax breaks”), will not tank the economic growth that is eeking along now.
There’s plenty of economic history to show that as we pulled out of previous recessions, tax increases were part of the new upswing.
It’s Republican dogma that tax increases stiffle investment. Going back to 90% top marginal rates might, but Clinton-era top brackets are medically and ethically safe.
OzoneR
That was pretty much their MO in 2009 and most of 2010, then the public rejected it.
liberal
@127 Memwhatserface blithered
Yes, of course it does.
Where is all that extra money going? The Republicans and their enablers don’t think there’s anything sacrosanct about the Trust Fund. Why on earth would anyone choose this time to increase SS inflows?
Han's Solo
@Derf: Now you are just spamming. And spamming out cut and paste comments that insult others for being predictable makes you look intellectually stunted.
If you want to insult others for lack of originality, maybe you shouldn’t be so… unoriginal.
MattR
@dogwood:
The thing that is missing from this analysis is that the economic conditions in this country changed during this time period. It should not be surprising or confusing that policies change to reflect this.
liberal
@Southern Beale:
What’s the logic of raising the cap at all without imposing SS taxes on capital gains?
kindness
Joel@152:
Have at it. Do I care if you think I’m an asshole? Go to town buddy.
Citizen Alan
Dagwood @ 148
No, you don’t have this straight. The GOP is only freaking out about the deficit so that they can demagogue Obama into cutting spending. Liberals are not channeling their inner Cheney, we simply say that before we make cuts to anything in order to reduce the deficit, we should first UNDO the things the GOP did to increase it. The GOP, meanwhile, wants to keep the tax cuts and wars that are responsible for the deficit and finance them by cuts to Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security. Also, liberals are concerned about the deficit but believe that fixing unemployment is more important, since part of what is driving the deficit is, you know, unemployment (lost tax revenue + unemployment benefits = rising deficit).
Matthew
How surprising. John leads the smug jackasses in dismissing the story out of hand, calmly observing that he’ll wait until something happens. And, per usual, when Obama sells out his base again, Cole and the rest of the Democrat cheerleaders will point hysterically to Michele Bachmann and Eric Cantor and Rand Paul and tell us that it was his only option. Look who he’s dealing with, guys. He really, really is on our side, he just can’t fight for anything we believe in. But keep voting for Democrats, because Republicans make shitty laws.
How intellectually and morally bankrupt the so-called Left has become.
liberal
OzoneR wrote,
Nope. Polls consistently show that the public cares most about jobs.
OzoneR
yes, and when Obama made that case, the left attacked him for ceding the narrative to Republicans by admitting the deficit and debt was a problem.
RalfW
Yep.
The right is insane, but on-message and disciplined, cohesive and even if it is only the patented 27% wingnutopia, I have no doubts that the left is half of 27%.
As Chait assholishly points out, middle of the road politicians like Obama don’t need us, we’re too small to matter much.
This is a wake up call to organize, not to rage at our powerlessness.
RandyH
Now you’re playing songs in my head with that simple title…
OzoneR
And yet they voted for a party that emphasized cutting spending…to create jobs.
You act like jobs and the deficit are mutually exclusive in people’s minds.
liberal
FlipYrWhig wrote,
Cuts =/= benefit cuts (or, not necessarily) when it comes to health care, since it’s clear that health care can be improved while at the same time costing less.
OTOH, SS pays out cash, so anything increasing the difference between what someone pays in versus what they get out is a cut.
liberal
OzoneR wrote,
No, they voted that way because of the unemployment rate, as predicted by the empirical political science literature.
Han's Solo
@Matthew:
Exactly! Why don’t people understand that the important thing is that we all freak out early and often and without any evidence?
Because what the country really needs is for the left to become as unhinged as the right! If the GOP can act like a bunch of spoiled brat babies with soiled diapers so should the left! Fuck the country, it’s the Democratic Party that is important!
Yeah! Who the fuck does the “left” think they are, insisting on not being reactionary fools? And everyone knows the truly moral thing to do is wet the bed (metaphorically speaking) every time the media says “Boo.”
You, sir, are a nincompoop.
OzoneR
Then they did NOT vote rationally, and thus will NOT to get rational governing.
The end.
If the public wanted jobs, it voted for the wrong people in 2010 and now they won’t get any jobs, though they did 157,000 of them in June despite all the left’s attempt to convince the world that we wouldn’t get any…if they don’t like when Congress is doing, they can vote for the people who for two years did not discuss cutting spending, but discussed jobs.
dogwood
For a party that rightly mocks the GOP for its refusal to deal with objective reality, it takes a lot of cognitive dissonance to make statements like these. Obama was never a Blue Dog. He was a reliable liberal vote in the Senate. Undoubtedly he cast a few votes that liberals didn’t like, myself included, but so did people like Russ Feingold and I doubt anyone would call him a Blue Dog.
Howard Dean was much closer to being a Blue Dog than Obama. Check his record as governor. A liberal he was not. I like Dean, but I wouldn’t have expected a Dean presidency to have been as progressive as his admirers imagined. People forget that Dean was a deficit hawk.
In 2008, John Edwards was the darling of the progressive blogosphere. His Senate voting record defined Bule Dogism.
What’s tedious about all the Obama bashing on the left isn’t that those people don’t have legitimate complaints. It’s that they are too willing to make arguments by just making crap up.
liberal
OzoneR wrote,
He never made that case. The liberal/left attack on spending during the Bush years is that (a) the government should not be running large deficits during the run-up to a cyclical peak, (b) a huge chunk of change went down the tubes in pointless wars (Obama has helped to wind the war down in Iraq, but stoked it in Afgh), (c) “income” going to parasitic rent collectors like those in the financial sector should have the living shit taxed out of it.
I don’t see Obama making that case at all, certainly not in a clear and coherent way.
OzoneR
Did you NOT see his speech attacking Paul Ryan, the left had an orgasm over it.
perhaps because you don’t WANT to see it.
Rick Taylor
I’m not saying everything needs to be live and on tv. But there’s quite a bit of space between that and what we have now; the leaders of the two batteries hammering out a deal in private which the rest of congress is expected to go along with, involving huge decisions about the future of the country, 2 weeks before a deadline, under the threat of the government defaulting on its debts if it’s not immediately pushed through when it’s agreed to.
liberal
@176 Dogwood wrote,
He was, roughly speaking, about as liberal as Hillary. (Disclaimer: I gave $$ and my vote to Obama in the primary.) That is, he was fairly liberal—yes, not a Blue Dog—but hardly one of the leading liberals of the Senate.
liberal
178. OzoneR wrote,
That’s over health care, and the (valid) point that you can cut the health care budget and yet deliver better outcomes. But it’s not (a), (b), or (c) that I listed.
Han's Solo
@OzoneR: Please keep in mind that the GOP ran on a, “Democrats are trying to kill Medicare” platform in 2010. They also talked a lot about creating jobs, they just didn’t give many specifics.
Again, if the Republicans would have told voters they were going to spend most of their time trying to outlaw abortion, NPR, etc, they probably wouldn’t have won. That is not what they ran on, they lied.
If you are saying America should have been better informed before going to the polls, I’d agree wholeheartedly.
liberal
OzoneR wrote,
Like Obama and everyone else, you’re conflating the deficit right now, currently driven by the economic cycle, and non-cyclical structural elements contributing to the deficit that liberal/leftists oppose (giveaways to the filthy rich, military spending and wars taht are nothing more than treasure dumped in the toilette).
liberal
OzoneR wrote,
Most people aren’t saying there won’t be any jobs. We’re saying the recovery is weak, and this emphasis on deficit reduction is moving in the wrong direction.
WyldPirate
@Linda Featheringill:
I don’t know whether to put this in the “blind hog finds an acorn category” or the “2012 end of the world phenomenon” category. But thanks.
I’ll keep on working on the charm. I know it is oozing out of every keystroke I make here, but there is always room for improvement. ;)
WyldPirate
@Han’s Solo:
Oh hell, get on out of here. Don’t you know that it is too much to ask the electorate to even find their polling place or make changes of address in their registration?
We can’t ask the American electorate to read and think about their election choices! For fuck’s sake, that would take time away from watching American Idol or ranting and raving about Casey Anthony or whomever is the “missing-pretty-white-girl” tragedy du jour.
Davis X. Machina
@OzoneR:
They’re the opposite of exclusive. The average mind, what isn’t full of Missing White Women and Charlie Sheen stories, anyways, still conflates the two.
I see no reason to disagree with Jonathan Bernstein on the general theory that the median voter has all of this stuff — debt, deficit, default — to add insult to injury they all begin with ‘d’ — jobs, unemployment, a ‘strong dollar’ — inextricably mixed up in his or her head.
If that was whom I intended to rely on for re-election, why wouldn’t I conflate it all, too?
Obama is a politician, and a good one, whatever his failings as a macro-economist. He got himself elected, which isn’t all that easy to do.
dogwood
Polls also show that the public doesn’t want the debt ceiling raised. Polling data on specific policy always favors the democratic agenda, but unfortunately it doesn’t translate into votes. Millions of people who want to protect social security and medicare, see taxes raised on the wealthiest, wind down the war in Afghanistan and provide high quality education will vote a straight Republican ticket in 2012. Voting is a tribal activity more than a rational activity. I’m always amazed at the pundits, many of them from the left, who write those pieces about how Ronald Reagan wouldn’t be pure enough for the party today. How can they revere a man who raised taxes and passed amnesty for illegal immigrant?. This totally misses the point. Savvy Republicans revere Reagan because he expanded the tribe.
OzoneR
um, no it wasn’t, it was about the budget, it was explicitly about being able to control the budget without getting rid of Medicare or jobs programs. It included his comparisons to stuff Brazil and China were doing like infrastructure projects and clean energy and he hit Republicans saying “They think the greatest country in the world can’t afford to do any of that”
It had nothing to do with healthcare
Berto
WyldPirate #186
Here’s handy (and true) statement, which can be used in almost all cases where the citizens are getting screwed.
“The media is complicit.”
OzoneR
Here in New York, where the GOP won six House seats, they ran ad after ad talking about spending and the deficit. They ran ads showing a guy digging whining about “spending and spending, we’re $13 trillion in debt! Stop digging” they ran ads holding credit cards saying “Americas is maxed out, time to pay off our debt”
and they ran them over and over again.
Are you really going to tell me the people who voted for Republicans didn’t see those ads?
David in NY
@ OzoneR
Those weren’t the ads people I talked to (phone-banking) in NY-20 cared about. They cared about Obama cutting Medicare. And something about the Democrat sending out campaign literature on the franking privilege or the like. Nothing about the deficit. So I call bullshit.
OzoneR
so not jobs either, look at that.
but my point was the ads were there. They made it clear what they ran on and it was cutting spending.
dogwood
And pray tell, who were these leading liberals in the Senate? I suppose you could point to Bernie Sanders and the late Ted Kennedy. But even liberal lions like Kennedy screw it up. I’m a teacher and NCLB is a piece of right wing crap. It did little more than enrich the vast right wing testing and curriculum providers. Still, I wouldn’t call Ted Kennedy “fairly liberal.”
Han's Solo
@OzoneR: I don’t live in New York, so I really couldn’t say. But that wasn’t my point. I wrote:
If you look at the legislation the House of Representatives have been working on, a lot of it relates to abortion, NPR, Planned Parenthood, etc. Yes, they talked about cutting spending during the campaign, but my memory has them making a huge fuss over jobs, jobs, jobs MORE than spending. Regardless, I’d love to see a breakdown on how much time this House of Representatives has spent on various issues. I’d guess abortion is high up on that list.
Trollenschlongen
@cleek 112
YAY!