Just responding to comments this morning since I crashed out after posting last night. First, when I say I’m “sort of” dating this guy, I mean we’re not a couple. We’re never going to be a couple. We’re companions of convenience. I call it dating because he mostly pays for the outings and we do things old couples do, like taking day trips to tourist sites. But I’m not hanging out with him out of desperation for a date. I do it because he’s a really nice man and I find him interesting.
I Ioathe the GOP power brokers as much as the next liberal, but I don’t hate ordinary Republicans, even if they harbor wrong-headed beliefs. I have lots of hard core conservative friends. They are decent people, basically kind, and generous to a fault. Sure, they live in an echo chamber. It’s human nature to seek to belong to a group of like minded individuals.
I’ve always deliberately sought out groups with opposite ideologies. Many of them are still reachable and not seeing how you change their minds unless you engage with them. The ones I befriend are not evil. Neither are they stupid. Mostly they’re just scared by the rapid pace of change in society so they form social enclaves that reinforce their own norms where they feel safe. How different is that really from what we do on the left?
Yevgraf
My mother is one of them – she was brought up as central Kentucky white trash, was a Wallace voter in 1968 (at the ripe old age of 24), used to rail about how Archie Bunker really wasn’t that wrong, was upset that the press learned of and revealed what happened in Watergate, and has been an unrepentant conservative her entire life. She’s even gone as far as to lament the passing of the Confederacy.
When I brought up the Murdoch scandal, her observation was that the press reveals way too many things about the military, its actions and dispositions.
*sigh*
LittlePig
But our echo chambers are more fun.
Douglass Truth
nice sentiment.
stuckinred
Exactly. I’m a Nam vet in Georgia and I have plenty of right wing, nut-job vet buddies. They call me a peace queer and I call them shit-eatin dog-fuckin nazi’s. We’ll all go down together.
Cris (without an H)
I don’t see how anybody can spend all their time in ideological hostile territory. I know a lot of you — DougJ certainly comes to mind — have much more of an appetite for it, but it seems like we all need to have some time in conversation that starts with everybody largely in agreement.
Linda Featheringill
Libby, do you have any friends who aren’t conservatives?
Bobby Thomson
I have lots of hard core conservative
friendsacquaintances, too. They are decentpeople, basicallykind, and generous toa faultwhite people they know.dan
“How different is that really from what we do on the left?”
Oh, I don’t think you want to ask that question.
Kiril
@Cris
Living in Alabama was what started me reading blogs. There was no one else.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
Seriously? Scared by the rapid pace of what change in society? The internet? The transition from VCRs to DVRs? Whites and blacks co-mingling? Gay people not being gay bashed?
boss bitch
H
Its not. And we see it everyday on this blog and on every liberal blog but are stunned as to why the rest of America won’t see ‘reason’.
WereBear
Rapid pace of change in society? Count me as one liberal who revels in it.
dr. luba
I hang out with lots of right wingers, but not by choice–they’re my relatives. There are a few reasonable ones, like my cousin Andy–he’s got a sick kid (diabetes) and has had to deal with the medical system while having to insure himself (small business owner). We’ve had long discussions on this subject. He likes “Obamacare,” and has said more than once, when discussing the subject with his cousins, that “Sarah Palin is an idiot!” He’s a reasonable Republican.
Most of the others cannot be reasoned with. Science is wrong if it disagrees with what they “know” to be a fact. America is the greatest country on earth with no flaws, except those caused by the god-damned liberals. And you can’t find good help any more (especially, as I have pointed out, when youdon’t provide benefits or a living wage, and expect back-breaking labor.)
WereBear
And I, for one, would like to see conservatives walk their talk. Let them dump their microwaves, turn off the TV, and get horses instead.
I’m waiting.
boss bitch
@J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford:
Having a Black president is still quite shocking to some people. So is the rise in the Hispanic population. More minorities and more minorities in power mean more liberals and more liberals mean less God.
that’s my take anyway.
The Moar You Know
What I posted at the end of the last thread:
Don’t listen to the haters. Life is short. Enjoy it with whoever strikes your fancy. Some of the purity brigade here are as bad the anti-miscegenation folks back in the fifties.
Douche Baggins
Not different in the sense that we all gravitate towards groups where we feel comfortable and known — but conservatives are constantly yelling to shut the fucking door, whereas liberals would prefer to prop the door open to see who wanders in.
Zifnab
Mostly, I’m just offended that Libby has a social life. How on earth can she spend 24/7 blogging if she’s out on “day trips”? I mean, day trips? Really? That sounds suspiciously like exposing yourself to the radioactive firestorm we call the sun.
Shame on you, Libby.
gbear
This just sounds sad.
jacy
I was lucky enough to be raised by liberals, but my husband of 16 years is both Republican and a devout Catholic, while I am liberal and NOT NOT NOT religious. Our kids are lucky enough to see that people with vastly different ideologies can coexist and even live happily ever after.
However that being said, after 10 years of playing nice with his insanely right-wing family, I came to realization that I was going to go crazy if I had to deal with them any more, so I don’t go where they are. Had to be that way, or somebody was going to leave the dinner table with cutlery in their skulls. I hear they were kind of dismayed that I excised myself from their live, but at least I don’t stomp around angry all the time about people who can’t be reasoned with.
I guess it depends on how much you have in common with the individual, and how well you can negotiate your differences.
Libby Spencer
About to hit the road again but for the record, I have many more liberal friends than cons. And I prefer the company of liberals certainly. But I’m a mission to save the world from people like Kochs, so I don’t limit my social circles to one ideological group.
kindness
See and here I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that he has some other….shall we say desirable attributes.
Tyro
I’ve always deliberately sought out groups with opposite ideologies
Seriously, why? I always deliberately seek out people I like and whose company I enjoy. While some of those people are conservative, that’s usually because they’re people who became conservative after I met them or people whose conservatism was not a factor in my relationship with them. I’d never purposefully seek out someone who was a strident conservative because they were conservative. The entire personality/intellectual infrastructure there is completely unappealing, especially outside of DC, because within the beltway, people can generally be excused because they are generally more concerned with just making a living rather than repeating talking points.
Jay Schiavone
“How different is that really from what we do on the left?”
I wonder if the government and corporate and media power structure was oriented to undergird and reinforce all my beliefs, no matter how absurd, would I behave like a conservative? That is, would I still feel the need to destroy people whose views contradict my own? I tend to understand conservatism more as a pathology than as an ideology because most of their statements and actions appear pathological and also appear to lack ideological consistency. I tend to see liberals as too nice and respectful to be as aggressive as we need to be to counter the force of our opponents, even though there are far fewer of them.
gogol's wife
I was intrigued by this because I’m married to a sort-of Republican, but of the Nelson Rockefeller-Margaret Chase Smith sort. I dipped into the comments of the thread that I guess prompted this, and I realized that some people just can’t fathom that there could be anything to a relationship beyond politics. You really can’t imagine loving someone who has different political views? My father was a sockalist and my mother was a Republican, so I grew up seeing that this was a possibility. I think it certainly widens your horizons. Isn’t that the ideal of liberalism?
dianne
We’ve had to block emails from one of our conservative friends. They were getting more and more vile and hateful. The last was probably porn – the differences between Republican and Democratic women – it came with an explicit rating and wasn’t to be opened by anyone under 18. We deleted it without opening. I’ve never sent emails like that to any of our friends and relatives of the other persuasion. In fact, no one other than this supposedly church going Christian has ever sent anything that would be considered porn to us.
Mostly, we all get along by avoiding politics entirely. We really only make an effort with relatives (can’t live with them, can’t live without them).There is no changing our views and no changing theirs. And the ones who insist on trying – we just avoid or block entirely. Just don’t need the stress.
Chris
@ jacy,
This. More or less. I’ve met Republicans and libertarians that I can stand to be around, even some that I really like. Overall, though? I can’t even remember how many times I’ve done something like you did to your in-laws. I’ve unfriended people on facebook, dropped this or that activity, or just plain stopped talking to people, simply because I can’t fucking deal with that kind of stupid.
In my experience, there are two ways to get around the divide. One, if we both look at politics by individual issues rather than an overall my-tribe-versus-your-tribe mindset – that often helps a ton. And two, if we’re willing to agree that since we hate each other’s beliefs let’s shut up and talk about something else. I love the latter option; the vast majority of times I’ve broken with a conservative, it was because they simply couldn’t shut the fuck up about their politics.
Mogden
If you can’t see that there’s no difference between liberals and conservatives when it comes to living in an echo chamber, well, QED.
Montysano
@boss bitch:
A “both sides do it” equivalency? Bullshit. Come into the comments on this blog, or any other reality-based blog, and lay down a fact-free, ideological line of partisan crap and see if you get an “echo chamber” experience.
liberal
@The Moar You Know wrote,
Not a valid comparison.
While it’s fine to argue as you have, ie not avoid conservatives, one could reasonably argue that political beliefs are choices and are arrived at voluntarily, reflect one’s deepest values, are intimately related to moral agency, etc etc etc. Can’t say anything like that about skin color.
Tyro
Some liberals are so hung up about showing how “open minded” they are that they’re willing to allow themselves to be push around and abused by republicans screaming their talking points rather than being willing to take a stand for their own dignity and belief systems.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
I put my parents in that category. I just doubt they’d ever admit it. They do have racial issues. The very big change in the role of women in society has been difficult for both of my parents to adjust to. My mom is still hostile about the attitude 70’s feminists had toward women, like her, who wanted to be a homemaker and raise a family. The gay thing is very hard to adapt to, and because of me, they’ve had NO CHOICE about having to confront that issue.
I think the main thing driving hostility toward all liberals is a basic breakdown in the social cohesion they felt when they were young. White society was very religious, structured, and community oriented. They felt like they knew their place and belonged. The assumptions they made about the world were shared by their neighbors (which because of segregation were all white). Now, to them, nothing is set or sure. They feel alienated. A number of assumptions they grew up with are now frowned on (via PC) and the increase in overall secularism.
Personally, I like the brave new world I live in. I would have been miserable if I grew up when they did. But, I get that it suited them and that they keenly feel its loss.
Chris
@ mogden,
And this too.
I’ve read through tons and tons of conservative posts and comments at Pajamas Media over the years; one thing I’ve never seen in my life is them posting something like this or then arguing about it. I doubt if RedState, BigHollywood or the rest of the Gooper blogosphere is any different. In those comments sections, people literally fantasize about hunting us down and killing us. And virtually no one ever, ever objects.
Tuffy
There would be no Eric Cantor, Michele Bachmann, or any of the other sick, bizarre people in government leadership positions if it weren’t for rank-and-file voters dutifully pulling the lever every time because Jebus died for free markets, because young bucks buy t-bone steaks with food stamps, or they heard libruls were going to death panel grandma.
The GOP can’t help that it’s crazy any more than a tornado can feel bad about being destructive. It’s the rank-and-file bigots, goldbugs, Bible thumpers, xenophobes, and generally low-information droolers who vote against their own self interest by pulling the GOP lever every year who are the real problem.
eemom
So were the gentle townsfolk who lived down the road from Dachau.
gocart mozart
Its all well and good to say that you won’t associate with wingnuts but what do you do when your wife’s father and uncles are one? My sister is strongly ant-abortion and my deceased father was a die-hard Reagan guy. Politics aside, they are good people. Should I disown them?
Yevgraf
White society was also completely full of shit. It robbed the black and hispanic communities of labor via economic and political exclusion (not to mention artificially depressed wages), and your average white guy had a soft ride based on that. They stole, cheated on spouses and were gay at ratios equivalent to now, but because of some great salesmanship and self-back patting, could pretend they didn’t.
Omnes Omnibus
@ eemom: :
I have it on good authority that Franz Heubelschmidt kicked puppies. Your statement is disproved. Ha!
stuckinred
eemom
yea and leftists Stalin and Mao made the Nazis look like girl scouts.
Chris
This. While I get what Libby’s saying, I find the distinction between the “power brokers” and the “ordinary Republicans” a little too easy. The one exists because of the other.
Oddly enough, this is exactly the argument Nazi sympathizers were making in the 1930s and 1940s. Stick with that mass murderer over there. At least he’s not a communist. (With “communist” here defined as “anyone who supported any of the social evolution that’s happened in the last hundred and fifty years.”)
stuckinred
Chris
yea, that’s exactly what I said.
Trollenschlongen
This.
Everyone who has political views displays important aspects of their character by the content of those views. The political really is personal.
To pretend otherwise is just silly. If you’re best buds with someone who thinks GWB’s wars are awesome, then I’d say your political values don’t really matter much to you.
Zifnab
Wait, say what? Cantor, Bachmann, and the others are scaremongering demagogues. One could just as easily argue that there wouldn’t be so many rank-and-file voters scared about Sharia Law and supply side economics and the government stealing your precious bodily fluids if the demagogues didn’t exist.
Combine the individual political demagogues with the right-wing noise machine, and it gets hard to blame rank-in-file voters for pulling the lever after they’ve been bombarded with a 24/7 barrage of “Mooslim Socialist Democrats are gonna blow up your lake house! Breaking! Breaking!”
Blaming the rank-in-file Republican this far into the lying game is just blaming the victim.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@stuckinred:
agreed totally
i don’t have the war time bond that supercedes other differences, but i agree on principle.
because i have interests that skew demographically to the right, where often far right views are tolerated, or not challenged, i interact with right wingers in non-political ways.
these interests precede the political polarization that has occured in the last 20 years. though them yet, i can mark that change. do i arguefightdisagree, yes, but it doesn’t change the fact the underlying bond isn’t politics or identity.
right wingers are like farts and old people, you only enjoy them, if they are your own.
Trollenschlongen
eemom, you are so right. I totally agree with this. I almost “went there” in my last comment, as I am of German descent, but so many people freak out if one mentions the “nice Nazi” example. I figured Libby would yell at me: “My boyfriend is not a fucking Nazi!”
But yeah, lots of nice folks in germany looked the other way. I don’t respect them either.
stuckinred
“political polarization that has occured in the last 20 years.”
I spent the weekend with mostly lefty friends from 40 years ago, if you think this is something new you must be a pup.
Zifnab
Wait, say what? Cantor, Bachmann, and the others are scaremongering demagogues. One could just as easily argue that there wouldn’t be so many rank-and-file voters scared about Sharia Law and supply side economics and the government stealing your precious bodily fluids if the demagogues didn’t exist.
Combine the individual political demagogues with the right-wing noise machine, and it gets hard to blame rank-in-file voters for pulling the lever after they’ve been bombarded with a 24/7 barrage of “Mooslim Soci alist Democrats are gonna blow up your lake house! Breaking! Breaking!”
Blaming the rank-in-file Republican this far into the lying game is just blaming the victim.
Trollenschlongen
What does that mean? The politics of the people you mention negatively impact thousands/millions of people each year, in many cases to the point of death.
A good person is not ok with that.
murbella
because conservatives and libertarians are anti-empirical– they reject data that does not support their world view.
and have you changed anyones mind through engagement, Libby?
of course not.
because of red-blue genetics, conservative backfire effect, factblocking, and Social Brain Hypothesis.
Cole, Charles Johnson, and I (for example) all switched sides when we were overwhelmed by empirical data.
That means we actually had the substrate to accept correction via reality.
murbella
And they are not good people.
Missionary democracy and free market capitalism have just made Americans the overclass of the world.
We have fucking eating contests while third world countries starve.
Its fucking gross.
Svensker
So no one here would have been friends with John Cole in 2002? Sneered at him at parties, crossed the street if you saw him coming, put up a big fence if he were your neighbor?
I have found in my old age that most of the folks that I like tend to be in general agreement with me politically, but there are exceptions occasionally. Should I cut those people off because they’re not where I am in my political journey?
Libby’s friend sounds perfectly nice and who the hell is anyone here to tell her who to like or spend time with? What are we, Red Brigades?
The Moar You Know
murbella: To quote from an awesome book I read recently: “I know ye. I’d know yer hide in a tanyard.”
You need to up your writing game.
Tsulagi
Me too, a majority of my family and those I work with are conservative. And even though not infrequently I butt heads with them, all in my family and most of those I work with are as you say “decent people, basically kind, and generous.”
Have no idea how I became the designated liberal among them. Prior to 2000 more than one pegged me as a socially liberal moderate conservative. Then came the tarded Bush and post 9/11 era. I stayed the same, but far too many conservatives far too quickly jumped into clown trains to move to the right of Pluto into Loon Land.
liberal
stuckinred wrote,
While it’s reasonable to argue academically that maybe Stalin or Mao were just as bad as Hitler, maybe Hitler didn’t kill as many, etc etc, your statement above claiming that Stalin/Mao were much worse is just stupid.
Son of Prog
I don’t see how making exceptions for anyone’s political beliefs which are actively damaging our country is a good idea. I too have some conservative friends, but I never considered making exceptions for them and I get in their faces about their political beliefs because they’re not dumb and should know better. There’s nothing wrong with reminding them that they are trying to destroy America, and if you’re side-stepping or politely or civilly trying to avoid that conversation, thanks a lot, you’ve bought into their schtick.
Damned at Random
My spousal unit called himself a libertarian when we started dating- 20+ years ago. I enjoyed his company and he was good on women’s issues- lots of female friends, which I like in a guy- so I made him a project. It wasn’t really that hard because he was mostly indifferent to politics, except he is a gun nut and that means most of his (male) friends are very Limbaugh conservatives. Now he is a major fan of Rachel Maddow and we listen to wingnut radio in the car to rebut their arguments. Man, those are some angry assholes. But now he knows what his friends will be arguing and how to lay out their inconsistencies.
The thing abut living in a small, isolated town is that most of the people who live here have always lived here and have a very limited experience base. They are tourists in the larger culture and their tour guides are xenophobes. They are very defensive if you take them on aggressively, but if you plant a little doubt, it can grow over time. The trick is to know the arguments in advance and figure out the weakest part of the logic – the point where Mark Levin start screaming is a good indication of where his logic breaks down, by the way – you can be ready with the question or comment that plants the seed.
Trollenschlongen
As eemom said above, there were perfectly nice people down the road from Dachau too.
I haven’t heard anyone here tell Libby who to hang out with. I’ve read people here expressing opinions on the matter of dealing with relationships involving right wingers, thru the prism of Libby’s situation as she offered it on this blog. Libby is free to befriend whomever she wishes. Commenters are free to comment.
What’s up your ass today?
Kane
@Libby Spencer:
For what it’s worth, I say hold onto your gentleman friend. If he offers you kindness and respect and accepts your differences of opinion, then I say you have a friend. None of us in this life have so many friends that we can afford to discard those who differ with our polticial views. If we limit ourselves to contact with only those who always agree with us, we are destined to be lonely people. And if we allow ourselves to vilify all republicans as unworthy of our friendship, then I would argue that the powers that be have done a masterful job in dividing us all.
drkrick
Disagree. Political views often identify important aspects of the premises and assumptions people bring to their thinking about various issues much more than their character. It’s a mystery to me how anyone who has spent more than a couple of years in the comments sections of lefty blogs watching disagreement about issues get transmuted into accusations of racism and sexism to avoid thoughtful discussion WITHIN OUR OWN SIDE can retain the illusion that conservatives and liberals are on some kind of different moral plain.
Conservatives who can’t talk politics without spewing vile hate aren’t problematic because they’re conservative, they’re problematic because they’re assholes. The same bad behavior from the left isn’t excused by the “nobility” of the cause. Anyone who finds it impossible to maintain friendly and constructive relationships with people who don’t conform to their political preferences ought to withdraw from political involvement entirely and get started on the personal work they so desperately need.
Amanda in the South Bay
I’ve noticed that is week LGM is displaying a pretty nice echo chamber effect-there’s a collective freakout over Plouffe’s statement and the supposed SS cuts to get the debt deal. JFL seems like one of the few substantive people left. We’re our own worse enemy-we read too much into every perceived little gaffe and pray for the worst.
Having said that, I actually tend despise most conservatives on a personal level-I guess I’ve never gotten over growing up in a small town, or the gender identity inspired religious guilt trip of my early 20s.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@stuckinred
I got your snark there; it’s unclear to me how so many others missed it. And indeed, dead is dead at whoever’s hand.
stuckinred
liberal
Well motherfucker, I think you are stupid. You think the dead give a fuck why they were murdered?
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Yevgraf
And you won’t get an argument from me that things didn’t needed to change. However, my parents neither stole, cheated, or got some on the down low, nor did most people. No social order is fair, ever. We have less discrimination against people of different faiths, sexual orientations, races, ethnicities, etc now, but we have a greater gulf between the rich and the poor and less social mobility. Just because a society is deeply flawed doesn’t mean that some people in that society weren’t good people and didn’t derive real benefit from it. I don’t agree with conservatives, but I have empathy for them.
Stillwater
This may be true. But it’s not like this is a new phenomenon. Radical conservatives have been around since the beginning in substantial numbers – or at least there’s lots of evidence to suggest this.
The difference now – say in the last thirty years or so – is that radical conservatism has come out of the closet. It’s been mainstreamed. And now it isn’t the fringe, but the core of conservatism.
cleek
@murbella:
because
conservatives and libertarianspeople in general are anti-empirical—they reject data that does not support their world view.FTFY
stuckinred
How the hell do I know why there were Nazis? I don’t even how the can opener works
stuckinred
“… and these are just the problems we’ll encounter if we accept my numbers without debate. If we want to use the estimates of other scholars, we can pin up to 50 million murders on Stalin, enough to push him to the top of the list regardless of definition. Or we can whittle him down to 10 million murders if we use the low end of the margin of error, and scrounge several more tens of millions for Mao, or away from him.
So, the answer to the question of “Who is roasting on the hottest fires in Hell?” is “Well, that depends…”“
Zifnab
Radical conservative ebbs and flows. It hit a nadar back in the Civil War era and persisted in spurts through the 1930s. Then it re-emerged under Goldwater and Nixon, and has been rolling to a boil through Reagan and Bush.
We’re never going to get rid of radical conservatism in every form. But they’re never going to get rid of the DFHs either. In the mean time, we’ve come a long way from the founding of the nation. The long arc of history bends towards progress yadda yadda yadda.
Look to the new generation of Libertarians and you’ll see they’ve still got their crazy ideas, but they’re less crazy than their grandparents’ ideas. Even Goldwater wasn’t talking much about gay marriage and legal pot back in the 60s.
Tyro
None of us in this life have so many friends that we can afford to discard those who differ with our polticial views.
What? That’s not true at all! One of the benefits of age is that we can manage our social lives by picking and choosing whom we choose to associate with. You can have “enough friends” such that you only make room for the ones that make you happy.
gogol's wife
#64: Deconstructing Harry! Brilliant!
The Moar You Know
Svensker: exactly my point. These people screeching that one should have “no dealing with the enemy” are indulging in exactly the same separatist crap that the worst conservatives do.
And when called out on this, put charitably, they offer up some weak sauce.
kd bart
#63- People hear what they want to hear and disregard the rest.
Some liberals are so open minded to the point of being patronizing.
kd bart
#68- Actually thats from Hannah and her Sisters. Mickey’s(Woody Allen) father says it when he informs them he converting to Catholicism.
Cris (without an H)
@ kd bart: all lies and jest.
hitchhiker
That captures it exactly. I’m the one of 8 kids who escaped life in a small upper midwest town to build a life on the left coast — fast forward 35 years, and my sibs (whom I know to be kind and decent folk) hold points of view that I can’t fathom. They’re surrounded with very effective messaging 24/7; from within that circle, it all makes perfect sense.
To them, I seem like a martian.
NamelessGenXer
I hate ordinary Republicans, and their evil spawn.
(I should add that I’ve gone 40-something years not hating anyone. Paylin’s white trash mobs shouting “Kill Him!” changed all that. Forever.)
Bruce S
“Mostly they’re just scared by the rapid pace of change in society”
AKA capitalism doing its thing…
But it’s easier to put “other” faces on it.
There is nothing “conservative” about unregulated markets or the machinations of our economic elite. Not even a little bit. I’m not sure why it’s so hard for people to see this.
Liberals are the only hope for “conserving” whatever’s left of our social fabric. And the Democratic Party is chock full of folks who would have been Republicans in the Eisenhower era, when moderation was still a virtue in the GOP.
At this point, I think race has more to do with it than most people want to admit. It may just be subliminal with a lot of these folks, but it’s there…simmering and making them more than a little crazy.
Chris
Depends what you call conservative. For my money, what goes by the label today goes back to the 1950s. Before that, the people who’re now conservatives were often on opposite sides of the fence, e.g. Southern-based white racism on the Dems’ side, Northern-based economic royalism on the Repubs’ side. (Not that there wasn’t racism in the North or elitism in the South, but not in a million years would you have caught Klansmen giving their votes to robber barons).
And then there’s just the hostility between Northern and Southern bigots. The Republicans back then were a lot like today in cultivating a “Real American” constituency and pummeling everyone else, but “Real American” back then meant Northerner, or at least non-Southerner; for Northern bigots, Southerners were almost as un-American and evil as the urban immigrants polluting their cities.
stuckinred
Libby
Next time you are with your friend tell him “Eat the apple and fuck the corps”. That’s when you’ll know how good of friends you are.
Svensker
@ Trollenschlongen
We didn’t say NOT to hang with them, we just said that hanging with them was like hanging with NAZIs.
And keep my ass out of it, Mr. Schlong.
HumboldtBlue
Enjoy the company of whomever you choose, but don’t excuse willful ignorance, an inability to be a critical thinker and a penchant for good ol’ American racism to rear its head when you sit down with these decent people.
Fucking scared, they vote for the assholes who use fear as fuel for their political ambition, but we’re supposed to understand that even though they listen to a lying, racist sack of shit like Limbaugh and believe FOX News is an insurgent voice, deep down they’re really, really nice. I hope they suffer and suffer long and hard for the choices they have made, they damn sure don’t give a flying fuck about making others suffer.
FFrank
Well then they are willing to help as long as they think you are in their tribe. And if you are not part of the tribe you are the enemy. Right now girl you are the crazy cute girlfriend but still in the tribe. Watch out for backstabing if you get kicked out of that tribe/group.
I had a falling out with someone who I thought was wonderful and then realized there was hate and would spout propaganda even after he knew it was wrong. I realized he was a total c*nt told everyone who knew him that I called him that and why. So he wasn’t the salt of the earth that people thought of him. Stripping away the illusion helps prevent hatred from spreading.
jacy
@NamelessGenXer:
Well, I married an ordinary Republican and hence diluted all his evil spawn so they’ll be nice liberals. I imagine someday he’ll be quite bewildered by this whole turn of events.
Of course, I did mention to him that if he voted for George Bush, I would lose all respect for him and thus find him less attractive – so he quit voting. Maybe I’m just persuasive that way…
Librarian
Actually thats from Hannah and her Sisters. Mickey’s(Woody Allen) father says it when he informs them he converting to Catholicism.
priscianusjr
Midnight Marauder
Maybe when the Left goes to work on a systematic campaign of voter suppression explicitly targeting minorities and other constituencies that vote Democratic.
I mean, what a fucking asinine statement. “Oh, a lot of white people are scared about social change! Let’s hold their hand while they enable a political party hellbent on dismantling the tide of progress all those pesky “others” have put together over the previous decades.”
What a goddamn farce.
stuckinred
Librarian
Hannah
Citizen Alan
Svensker – July 8, 2011 | 12:17 pm · Link
No. Based on what I remember of his views circa 2002, I would not have been friends with him, I would have sneered at him at parties, etc. etc. Because in 2002, he whole-heartedly supported an evil institution. Then, he had his own personal Road to Damascus and changed into someone I could like and respect. Similarly, I bet a lot of people who would never be friends with me and who sneer at my views would embrace me as a bosom buddy if I “got right with God” and started ranting at town hall meetings about how our America-hating Marxist President was destroying America and that I hoped Michele Bachmann could save us in 2012. Because I’d have become evil.
HyperIon
LS wrote:
ouch. i guess you didn’t get the memo about a sexual revolution that took place about 40 years ago. one of its features was the abandonment of the assumption that when dating, men pay.
Citizen Alan
NamelessGenXer – July 8, 2011 | 1:18 pm · Link
Amen. In 2004, I realized that I had never in my life hated any human being as much as I hated George Bush. I realized that I literally did not know what it meant to truly hate someone until George Bush came along and rode to reelection on the backs of the 9/11 dead. Now, seven years later, I think I hate every Republican in America just as much, so much so that I no longer have any interest in coddling them or their cowardly bigotries. Demons in human skin, ever one of them. The enemy of the entire human race.
murbella
@cleek
no, sry, we are not all the same.
That is what red-blue genetics is all about.
For example, only conservatives exhibit backfire effect.
All men are created equal, all genes and memes are not.
liberal
The Moar You Know wrote,
Uh, where in that comment did I say that one shouldn’t associate with conservatives?
If you actually read my post, you’ll see that I’m claiming that political beliefs are not comparable to race. Meaning, one can reasonably argue that political disagreements shouldn’t bar intimate relationships, but an analogy to anti-miscegenation isn’t going to cut it.
Maybe we should change the topic to whether people who can read should hang out with people who can’t.
artem1s
@NamelessGenXer:
for me it was hearing my father wish Clinton would die during his bypass surgery and my sister and her husband cheering along. to clarify, it’s the hate spew I can’t stand. I’ve seen too many people get swallowed whole by the vile sludge that passes for political discourse these days. It robbed me of a family that used to think and reason. They used to love learning and science. Now they are nothing but microphones for Rush and Beck.
So, for me, adding that puke to my circle of friends is just too much. Rather stick a 2B pencil in my eye.
liberal
murbella wrote,
That seems like an awfully strong statement to make, from a scientific point of view.
A plausible statement would be that conservatives, on average, exhibit it more than liberals.
The other thing wrong with your advocacy of crude genetic reductionism is that it leaves out free will. Not to mention environmental effects like “beliefs of parents” and “socioeconomic class.”
khead
It depends. If he was going to pay for lunch I could have put up with him long enough to say “What the fuck are you still doing here with these folks?
But I’m cheap though.
liberal
@91 artem1s wrote,
What’s wrong with hate? Like most things, it depends on the purpose to which it’s tied.
Was it really wrong, for example, for John Brown to hate slaveholders?
I think the best argument against hate is rather that it’s pretty ineffectual and saps energy.
liberal
Citizen Alan wrote,
Assuming this isn’t snark, the problem is that if you look at poll numbers in other countries where comparable sh*t is hitting the fan, these nasty outlooks exist in every time and every place.
DonkeyKong
“At my challenge, by the ancient laws of combat, we are met at this chosen ground, to settle for good and all who holds sway over the five points: us natives, born rightwise to this fine land, or the foreign hordes defiling it.” -The kind and decent Bill the Butcher
phx
That was a good post – particularly needed here, IMO. The fact is, most of us, whatever ideology or party, have ZERO influence on anyone other than perhaps our children. And usually the influence on our children is opposite of what we intend.
So some crackpot who spouts off his right-wing bile does not offend or bother me – we got plenty of crackpots on the left. In fact, set aside the politics, which I’m all too happy to do, and I find most of them really are ordinary, decent, capable of touching kindnesses.
I know the scorched-earth policy is de rigueur right now in contemporary politics, but it might be different if people recognized how little power they and their opponents actually have.
Stillwater
And actually, I don’t think this
is right at all. They’re not scared (the idea they are is a bit condescending, too), they have a different view of government and society than what prevails and they’re pissed. So if they’re scared, it’s not, it seems to me, about societal change.
Citizen Alan
I realize that. Which is why I take solace in the fact that I don’t have kids. As I have said, I have little to no hope for the future of this nation or for the planet in general, and I believe that most children born in America today will die in poverty in a fascist hell-hole. Good thing God invented whiskey.
Brian
We we we don’t don’t don’t live live live in in in an an an echo echo echo chamber chamber chamber. We we we just just just use use use a a a lot lot lot of of of reverb reverb reverb b b b b.
eemom
Again, nobody’s telling anybody who to hang out with. What the fuck do I care who anybody else hangs out with?
But we sure as hell have the right to call out a bullshit statement to the effect of, the people who vote to keep lying, murdering thugs in control of this country are wonderful beautiful human beings who are “generous to a fault.” Give me a fucking break.
At best, they are wilfully ignorant, gullible fools. At BEST.
NamelessGenXer
@Citizen Alan
Fixt.
liberal
eemom wrote,
Heh.
Midnight Marauder
eemom
And even this is being too generous. For fucks sake, none of this is new. NONE OF IT. These fucking bigotry enabling clowns need to start behaving like they exist in the Information Age.
TheWatcher
“First, when I say I’m “sort of” dating this guy, I mean we’re not a couple. We’re never going to be a couple. We’re companions of convenience. I call it dating because he mostly pays for the outings and we do things old couples do, like taking day trips to tourist sites. But I’m not hanging out with him out of desperation for a date. I do it because he’s a really nice man and I find him interesting.”
I wonder if her ‘Chump Du Jour’ knows they will never be a couple and he’s not good enough to be her boyfriend…
Svensker
Welp, this thread certainly demonstrates that acting like jerks is not exclusively a right wing hobby.
eemom
@ The Watcher
‘course he does. Old republican guys who pay for shit are totally hip to the nuances of modern relationships.
les
@Zifnab:
Well, except for the fact that reality exists. I can and do blame “victims” for simply accepting provable lies, just because it’s comfortable and feeds their privilege.
One example: it doesn’t take much work to know Fox lies, misleads, twists and exists to foster and support an extreme, divisive ideology. People who limit their news intake to Fox, or routinely believe what they see/hear there, deserve blame; and they’re fuckin’ things up for all of us.
I don’t interact much with the standard midwestern conservatives around me; it’s too damn hard, without a shared reality or language. I office share with a bright, educated, compassionate guy; can’t talk beyond the weather. He literally defines “liberal” as “anything I don’t like.” He vociferously denies evolution, while deliberately refusing to have any idea what it is/says. Because he has strong religious faith, no one who disagrees with him can be right, sincere or thoughtful on the subject. Social relationship? You must be fucking kidding. That approach to life affects everything he says and does.
HumboldtBlue
Yeah because when you point out the fact that millions of seemingly-intelligent and decent human beings actively support men and women who do their utmost to demonize, disenfranchise, stigmatize and marginalize others because of blinkered, backwards thinking we should just point out how fucking soft and fluffy they are.
Tell me Sven, next time you sit down to discuss the important issues of the day with a decent conservative friend, ask them how much better off blacks were as slaves as opposed to being free. After that enlightening discussion, ask the motherfucker how we allowed the working poor, the teachers, the firefighters and unions to destroy our country. Then branch out a little fucking bit and inquire if that decent person thinks the nigger in the White House is an actual citizen.
I mean, they’re decent right? Generous to a fault, they just hide all that good shit behind raging xenophobia, racism, classism and a dedication to ignorance as a virtue.
murbella
@liberal
IN THE STUDY I LINKED, like JayRosen SAID, backfire effect WAS ONLY OBSERVED IN CONSERVATIVES. You wanna contest that, cite a study.
The purely genomic effect is likely around 5%. There are four branches of heredity; genetic, epigenetic, symbolic and behavioral.
I am not advocating “crude genetic reductionism’.
I am saying WE ARE NOT THE SAME, for a variety of reasons, only some of them genetic.
Some are environmental, some are due to SNT and SBH.
murbella
@les
Heres a good series on the FOX disinformation problem at DeSmog Blog.
Scott P.
Let’s see: dehumanization: check. Tarring a group with a single brush: check. Asserting the impossibility of change: check.
The above sentiment is about one step away from suggesting we round them up and put them in gulags.
DPirate
…and he calls it dating because she mostly lets him come upstairs?
That’s how it works, right? I don’t really know because I’ve never been on a date, except this one time when I told the girl I didn’t have much money but to go ahead with whatever she’d like to order. She orders the fucking lobster, but she did say she would fuck me later. I dumped her at the door to the restaurant afterwards and went home to make a sandwich as I couldn’t afford food for myself.
Ah, love…
Bonnie
Suuuure. Libby wandered in with a friend and apparently some folks here were trying to slam the door in her face. Mirrors are helpful.
mary
I can’t believe the anger and arrogance in some of these replies. Where do some of you get off, telling another adult how they should live their life or who they should associate with? Libby told a story about her life to illustrate a point. Agree or disagree with her, but then let it go. It’s none of your business!
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
Cool! In the same post, HumboltBlue goes from calling out some conservatives for demonizing, stigmatizing, and marginalizing others, by demonizing, stigmatizing, and marginalizing all of them.
No one of Importance
I know, right? How dare Libby have a male friend she doesn’t want to *fuck*?
I guess you missed out on a little revolution called feminisim. Which means women can *choose* all by *themselves* how they conduct their peaceful, lawful personal lives. Libby doesn’t have to explain or apologise for her choices at *all*. Although a few people lecturing her here (some allegedly believing in that feminist ‘freedom’ stuff and everything) need to be taken behind the woodshed and edjumacated with a clue by four.
Libby, I totally get why you spend time with this man, even though his politics are opposed to yours (and presumably not attractive in their own right.) I choose to believe that your liberality may rub off on him through prolonged exposure (especially if you are the only exception to his echo chamber.) You enjoy yourself without guilt.
Binky the perspicacious bear
@106 Svensker
No death threats yet. Thread wouldn’t pass muster at LGF, Free Republic, etc.
Libby Spencer
Probably no one will see this because it’s so down thread now, but just have to remark on the assumptions being made here. For the record, we are in mutual agreement that this is just a friendship and is never going to become romantic. The guy was married for 49 years, his wife died tragically and he’s not over it yet. Neither of us wants a romantic relationship.
I do occasionally get him to let me pay for a meal. I’ve made a rule if I call him, I get to pay. When he invites me, he pays and I usually leave the tip.
Also, too, I’ve engaged with social circles across the spectrum, from homeless people to millionaires all my life. I’m fascinated by humans. I haven’t fully converted very many to dirty hippie status but I’ve had a lot of success in at least tempering their views and expanding their frames of reference. Figuring incremental change is better than none at all.
murbella
and you never will.
I have relatives on the western slope that are bubbas, too. They hate Obama. when i ask them why, they say they “don’t like the direction he is taking the country in” and “its soshulism!” They say Obama is the worst president ever. when you point that Bush is OBVIOUSLY the worst president ever, in that he spent 4.4 trillion of their money for nothing, they get steely eyed and tightlipped.
They also say Obama is violating the constitution. when i say how, they cannot answer.
Sound familiar?
because of red-blue genetics, and the psycho-biology of belief, the country is becoming increasingly polarized. Social media is the vector that is accelerating the widening gap. Because of the random nature of meiotic recombination, half of humans are born with conservative genetic tendency, and half with liberal. But 50 years of dogwhistle racebaiting has alienated the black and brown humans with natural conservative tendency, and turned them into democratic voters.
non-hispanic caucs (like my western slope conservative relatives) will become an electoral minority post 2020. Bur even before that racetraitors like me and other non-hispanic caucs that consistently vote democratic will permanently put the democrats into an electoral majority.
murbella
and again, most people do not care who you want to date. But pushing the kumbayah “we-are-all-the-same” eumeme makes you a useful idiot for the darkside.
We are not the same.
We are the reality based community, and try to operate based on empirical data.
They are a
bugfuck nutzlow information community of evangelicals, teabaggers and bubbas that are cruelly exploited by the conservative elites that pretend to serve their interests in order to farm their votes.JRon
I actually engage in email with my wingnut uncle (let’s call him Lou), and decided to modify my emails to him (I made them a little more polite and formal) and turn them into a website the other day. I’m having fun with it.
You’re welcome to send your nutty relatives’ forwards to me there:
wingnutemail.tumblr.com