Ol’Blue Eyes Strikes Again
Lawrence O’Donnell has been on fire as of late. Here’s his latest on the debt ceiling shenannies. Notably, he had the following to say:
Consider the lead editorial today in Rupert Murdoch’s Wall Street Journal. Normally a champion of the most ludicrous Republican policies and strategies… they have finally caught on to what they say today: “the President’s strategy all along: take the debt limit talks behind closed doors, make major spending cuts seem possible in the early days, but then hammer republicans publicly as the deadline nears for refusing to raise taxes on business and the rich.”
If the Republicans had a plan that they thought would work when they took the debt ceiling hostage, it could only have been the misguided expectation that when the moment came for the presidential decision in these discussion, Barack Obama would simply cave to the hostage takers’ demands. Ironically, others who shared that view as the possible outcome, here on the left side of our politics, have positions in the blogosphere and megaphones in which they have trumpeted their distrust of Barack Obama’s strength of character and his command of presidential power. As of tonight, the one person who we know is not panicking about what to do next is Barack Obama. Eric Cantor, however, has just described the meeting tonight at the White House this way to reporters. He, the president got very agitated, said that he had sat there long enough, that Ronald Reagan wouldn’t sit here like this, and that he’s reached the point that something’s got to give. a Democratic aide tells NBC, Cantor’s account of tonight’s meeting is completely overblown.
And of course, those who insist on believing that Obama can never do anything right, have not dialed down the “Obama is a Cavemeister” rhetoric.
Our Lady of Hamsher, for example, appeared on AJEnglish this evening to push the Republican narrative that Obama walked out of the negotiations:
Reportedly, Hamsher also babbled about Obama’s “threat” to Social Security recipients is illegal.1
::eyeroll::
::yawn::
O’Donnell went on to discuss the symbolic “shared sacrifice” vote which Senator Reid brought to the floor, and which the Republicans (and a couple Blue Dogs) soundly rejected:
The symbolic measure, introduced last month by Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.), failed to secure the 60 votes necessary to end debate. Fifty-one members, all members of the Senate Democratic caucus, voted in favor of proceeding on the measure, while 49 senators – including 47 Republicans and two Democrats, Sens. Mark Pryor (Ark.) and Ben Nelson (Neb.) – voted “no.”
So, Republicans in the Senate are on the record as favoring tax breaks for the rich; the House refuses to close tax loopholes as part of a deal to raise the debt ceiling ::coughNorquist:: and is decidedly freaking the fuck out — all due to the ol’ Obama/Reid one-two punch.
Aces.
1 Reportedly, as in “via the Twitterz.”
[cross-posted]
Warren Leach
You wre right ABL,
He’s got this.
.
Uncle Clarence Thomas
.
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Did he happen to offer any other quasi-insightful, happy-clappy Democrat-or-die analysis on such fetid topics as “Angry,” “Black,” or “Lady”?
.
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aisce
first off, again with this jane hamsher shit?
secondly, al jazeera english? wtf? she’s in their rolodex too?
seriously, can we just end this hamsher thing once and for all? it’s very simple. permanent cynicism sells. if the system remains impossibly corrupt and broken, then you can always make money in saying so publicly without having to do anything about it. but if the system isn’t irrevocably broken, and say there was some sort of competent liberal president making hay at reform left and right, then you can go one of three ways:
1. admit “defeat” on the permanent outrage manufacturing, sublimate your ego, and work under the political leadership to make progress happen. no more big shot outsider status, just work without individual glory or notoriety.
2. admit nothing. recklessly plow forward with your campaigns of negativity, blind to changing reality and hope circumstances swing back in your favor or the rubes’ wallets never run out.
3. find a new line of work.
hamsher is clearly #2. move on. she doesn’t matter.
The Dangerman
I’m just waiting for a Fred Thompson as Admiral Painter moment:
“This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we’ll be lucky to live through it.”
I now expect 2 things:
1) There will be an agreement to raise the Debt Ceiling with a clean bill
2) That will cause Sarah Palin to jump into the 2012 race
LTMidnight
@Uncle Clarence Thomas
How about actually watching the video, kid.
LTMidnight
@aisce
As long as she’s able to get on TV and claim to represent “The Base” without someone calling her out on that, she does matter.
Mike Kay (Team America)
O’Donnell’s critique should have included the so called liberal talkin heads working at MSNBC.
Johnny C.
Hamsher and Eddie Monster’s bastard son Glenn Greenwald are going to find whatever issue to attack Obama if it’s not St. Bradley of Manning then they’re going to make shit up. Their fanboys are going to eat this shit up not realizing they’re getting lead to the slaughter if the Republicans win both the senate and the White House.
Hamsher is going to make her money either way whine about Obama and let her firm will take money from Repugs to attack Dems while she gets paid under the table or she’s going to push out fundraising letters telling her drones stop the latest outrages that Republican president she helped get elected is doing.
I would call Jane a name but I would be offending whatever the thing I would call her. But her pal Glenn Greenwald is a fucking douche berry sandwich topped with shit sauce.
NobodySpecial
I love the way ‘both sides do it’ gets legitimized.
Mike Kay (Team America)
It’s actually good. Her vicheyness fires up the real base. The more she talk, the more the base donates.
eemom
hey Uncle, do us all a favor and take your Long Dong Silver over to Jane’s place where it belongs. And, like, keep it there. kthxbai.
Admiral_Komack
Well, I see THE RATFUCKER is at it AGAIN.
phillygirl
Yeah, but Lawrence was also sure Tim Pawlenty would roar to the 2012 nomination. Urp.
MobiusKlein
Uh, Angry Black Ladies don’t have to talk about Angry stuff, Black stuff, or Ladies stuff.
They can talk about science, math, painting, cooking, and lots of other stuff. Like kittens! And Cantor losing his cool.
BlizzardOfOz
Look over there! Michelle Bachmann!
MattR
@aisce: Hamsher is a godsend for
Obama supportersObots (edited to more accurately reflect the subset I am referring to). She is so ridiculous in her criticisms that she is an easy target herself. And focusing on those ridiculous and easy to answer criticisms allows people to ignore legitimate criticisms of Obama.Davis X. Machina
I’ll take the over/under at 200 posts. I’m going that low only because of the hour on the East Coast.
G’night.
Jennifer
I’m just waiting for one of the “more progressive-than-thou” types to drop another sneer about 11th dimensional chess.
Looks like he beat you guys at that game, too.
Heh.
LTMidnight
@phillygirl
Just remember that at this time in 2007 John McCain was considered Dead on Arrival, and nobody gave Obama a chance.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
What with Marcy taking Emptywheel elsewhere, I’m wondering if there’s not some not-so-surprising surprise that
LShady Jane isn’t about to endorse someone with less-than-full-progressive cred. I’m thinking Johnson.eemom
@ Davis
I’m going to bed myself, but first I will observe that for this particular circus — the one featuring lunatics dancing on the abyss of economic armagedddon into which we will all plunge with them — Jane Hamsher really doesn’t qualify for even a sideshow.
Nighty night.
Quiddity
O’Donnell:
An image. How valuable will that be come November 2012?
As far as comparisons with the Clinton/Gingrich showdown of 1995 are concerned, Newt was an obnoxious loudmouth. Regarding Cantor et al, they are bad for the nation, but they have – so far – kept a low profile, what with so much happening behind closed doors. If the Tea Party Republicans start spouting off, like Joe Wilson of “you lie” fame, then maybe there will be a contrast in public perception that works to Obama’s benefit, but I don’t think that’s guaranteed.
O’Donnell is touting Obama’s good “reputation”, but reality (in this case the economy) trumps reputation almost every time. O’Donnell’s heart is in the right place but I think he’s putting too much emphasis on character. Many Republicans with terrible character (like Rick Scott, governor of Florida) get a positive nod from a confused electorate. Obama runs the risk of being seen as a “good man”, but over his head. That may be a false characterization, but an effective opposition can get that message out.
MikeJ
@LTMidnight: I tend to think TPaw has a good chance. I think he’ll be as easily pushed around by the money guys as Romney, and I think they can get him past the batshit insane wing easier.
aisce
@ jennifer
what 11 dimensions?
the president used his established goodwill as a conciliator to take negotiations into a dark backroom and smother them with escalating demands that he knew his opponents could never swallow. deals are cool. no deal is also cool. he couldn’t lose.
knowing that republican money men have…money, and therefore reason to make sure the debt ceiling is raised (and thus the republicans have no leverage in their hostage situation, no matter what the teabaggers think) isn’t any particular stroke of genius. the president is playing against simpletons. simpletons with no actual leverage.
the best way to make sure you don’t lose is not to play…while looking like you’re playing anyway for public consumption. it’s all basic politics. john boehner and mitch mcconnell get it. they couldn’t stop it, but they get it. mentally disabled teabaggers do not.
can obama supporters please not be the unrepentant idiots the firebaggers are?
Bender
Obama: The Petulant Child in the Room. “I’m taking my ball and going to the nearest Country Club to play nine holes!”
If the GOP takes President Fast and Furious’s “I’ll maybe cut spending $2 Billion if you raise taxes $1 Trillion” deal, they’ll all be primaried in the next few elections. They’re slowly getting that message, I’m led to believe.
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
@MobiusKlein: But they DO have to talk about meeting Aasif Mandvi. And having a fangirl meltdown. In the aisle at Whole Foods, IIRC.
Prolly my fave ABL post.
Mike Kay (Team America)
But blacks are unable to play chess. Only white intellectual bloggers sitting in their mom’s basement have the necessities to play chess.
Surely a black guy, with a funny African name, with no national experience, who outmaneuvered Hillary Clinton, the most famous woman in the world, who was a former first lady, and veteran of two successful presidential campaigns can’t play chess.
I’m sure bin Laden agrees that black guys can’t play chess. Ooops, we’ll never know, his he’s unavailable for comment.
stinkdaddy
It’s great that Obama isn’t panicking. I’d rather see him calm than looking all agitated the way Boehner has, but you know what? I’d rather see a freaked-out, unshaven, hair-on-fire Obama sign a clean bill than a perfectly calm one cut my Social Security. You’ve been telling us to hold our water, ABL, and I’m certainly happy to admit that the last couple days are looking up. But there still has been no bill, we still don’t know what will happen when/if there is one and I’m a lot more interested in the final outcome than who looks the calmest. It seems to me that it’s going to be years before we can figure out whether putting SS and Medicare on the table were worth it — it’s not as though Wall Street was only going to freak out if entitlement cuts were offered.
And uh, Hamsher? You could paint a nice curly villain moustache on a ham sandwich and repeatedly rail against it if you’d prefer, for all the influence she has. On the one hand you’ve got speaking truth to power, and on the other you’ve got “all publicity is good publicity.” I can only speak for myself but if there were no Hamsher pieces here I’d have no awareness of her at all.
travis
uncle, c’mon man. Thats some weak shit. Is that the standard of today’s trolls? I weep for mouth breathers everywhere whos various shades of confusion and rage will go poorly expressed by the likes of uncle and his ilk.
Sinnach
I don’t agree with O’Donnell on everything but this is one thing that sets him apart from Maddow, Olbermann, etc – actual working experience in Washington. He sees things from the inside instead of the outside.
Everyone laughs over how politics are ‘kabuki theater’ but this really raises the bar on that if true (and I’m totally sold). Obama’s punked the Republicans out of their shoes and even caught a couple Democrats just to make it authentic.
Anyone not blind who has been watching these discussions knows Obama would never, ever walk out like that. The guy has struggled to cultivate an air of reasonableness, to be the so-called adult in the room even at the cost of his own party. Walking out would destroy that image – which might be why Cantor ran to the press with such a fable.
MikeJ
@aisce: When your opponent can’t beat the chicken at the state fair in tic tac toe, everything looks like 11d chess.
Now would somebody write a program that brings the eclipse window to the front and leaves it there until x amount of work gets done? Killing time waiting for a phone call that won’t come until the middle of the PDT night and I could be much more productive.
Dr. Squid
Oh please. You’ll never get anything out of the crazy wing other than “EEVIL SOSHULIST WHITEY HATER”.
Bender
Yeah, Obama is a great negotiator, playing 11-dimensional chess.
So who here is going to the Chicago Olympics in 2016?
wmd
Jane has to be hurting right now – Marcy (emptywheel) is moving on from FDL. Tbogg and masaccio (+ LLN open thread) are all that’s left at FDL that has value to me. The sycophants will still eat it all up.
Shade Tail
aisce:
What you say about Obama’s strategy is true; it’s really not that complicated. But it’s not just the teabaggers who didn’t realize it. I’ve lost track of all the liberals, both on the blogs and in the news media, who were shrieking about Obama caving and giving up both Medicare and Social Security. Turned out they were as big simpletons as the teabaggers; both groups assumed that the teabagger side was going to win big, but they’re losing big instead.
Jennifer’s point was that the firebaggers’ fear mongering turned out to be pretty stupid.
The Raven
Obama is still talking deficit, and offering some pretty big cuts. My general take on this is that the Tea Party Republicans have been pried apart from the Wall Street Republicans. Good, though don’t count them out yet. But if the Republicans wanted to sign on the dotted line today, Obama would give them 1.7 trillion in cuts, so that’s probably the smallest amount of cuts we will see. No breakdown yet, but it’s going to hurt–they aren’t going to all come from the military budget.
So far it looks to me like we are on-track for my prediction of a week ago, save only that Cantor may replace Boehner:
Calouste
@LTMidnight (19):
McCain was polling in the low=mid teens 4 years ago and did for most of the time until the start of the primaries except for a few polls where he dropped down to around 8%. Most of the time he was 3rd or 4th though.
TPaw is polling inside the Margin of Error from zero at the moment, and there is not a single poll where he has polled in double figures.
Martin
Everyone who went to the Crawford Olympics in 2004.
Are you naturally this stupid or do you take some kind of natural enhancement?
stinkdaddy
Er, also what is supposedly so offensive about Obama’s “outburst” as described by Cantor? I’ve seen it described as the President being “visibly upset” and then saying that something had to get done and “Reagan wouldn’t wait around this long” or etc. and then ends the meeting.
Holy hell, what a monster! I understand the spin war part of it — there’s a big fight over how adult Obama is acting, with an article where Cantor is practically saying Obama’s stumbling around drunk threatening to fight people matched off against Pelosi quoted to the effect that she had never seen someone be so gracious as Obama etc etc. That all makes sense, but what Cantor claims Obama did in and of itself sounds like a perfectly reasonable response to all the bullshit the GOP is pulling. I could get behind it.
Calouste
@Bender (33):
The US is not going to get any Olympics any time soon thanks to Eric Rudolph and Salt Lake City bribing IOC members and generally making a mess of things.
Quiddity
@ Dr, Squid: Yes, the message of “EEVIL SOSHULIST WHITEY HATER” is a staple of Fox News (in particular Fox Nation), but successful inroads can be made with the general press. It’s easy for Republicans to generate more-in-sadness-than-in-anger “regret”. They can claim that Obama didn’t give them enough time, that bargaining positions unexpectedly changed, that such-and-such undersecretary of Commerce didn’t deliver a report as promised. Stuff like that. Detailed wonkish policy debates never get much coverage because the public tunes it out, and the press fails to offer a clear narrative, which makes the situation worse.
Obama has recently improved his outreach to the public on this issue, but there is one question that I still have. Where is his cabinet on this? Where is the Secretary of Labor, of HHS, the White House economic advisers? People like that. I would like to see the White House “flood the zone” in D.C., but so far it’s like Obama is shouldering the entire messaging burden. What’s with that?
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
Bender @33
Stop it. Chicago never had a chance when:
1). There has never been a South American Olympiad
2). Brazil has, economically, finally become a first class power
3). Rio was already building a new stadium and seriously upgrading its infrastructure for World Cup 2014
It was nice for Obama to make an appeal for his adopted hometown even when the deck was stacked for Rio.
Martin
Well, what I suspect is wrong about Cantor’s account is the quote that Obama said ‘call my bluff’. I can’t imagine that Obama would admit to bluffing, basically admitting to lying to the public about the nature of these negotiations.
MikeJ
@42:
They couldn’t have one for the decades in which the Winter and Summer Games were held in the same year.
But itś nice to see Rio get it.
middlewest
My fantasy is that on the final day of his presidency, Obama re-enacts the epic Batman v. Guy Gardner battle with Eric Cantor.
boss bitch
FAIL.
Violet
@Quiddity:
I don’t think that will work as well now as it would have even yesterday. With the rumblings about the US’s credit rating being lowered, the futures markets off (and Asian markets off), and the dollar dropping, it’ll be harder for Republicans to get traction with the “defaulting won’t matter” meme. And the story is already out there that Obama and the Dems have offered compromises and the Republicans refuse to compromise. And look what happens without a deal (markets go south, dollar drops, etc.) The Republicans are in a hole.
stinkdaddy
Cantor’s already established himself in the eyes of the press as the petulant one, what with the walkout a bit back and all the articles describing Boehner as the mellow vet opposite Cantor’s young firebrand. Probably a bit too melodramatic, but it would be pretty sweet if there was in fact a ‘fit’ and the whole thing was staged to take advantage of Cantor’s lack of ‘adult’ cred.
Time to go write some fanfic I guess. Josiah Bartlett was in the Oval Office, when…
Bender
Oh, right. That’s why no one was shocked when they were the first city cut! Forget slum- and gang-ridden Rio — Chicago couldn’t beat Madrid or Tokyo, either.
shano
The Hamsher left probably represents the Dem equivalent of the teabaggers. I wish they got as much media play as the baggers, they never get on CNN for example, but they may be playing a role to help Obama stay centered. jmho
Bender
Pay attention. It’s not that “defaulting won’t matter,” it’s that there will be no default.
Mnemosyne
I have to admit, I love this new meme that Obama must be a bad negotiator because Chicago didn’t get the Olympics. I think it’s the most pathetic “gotcha” I’ve ever seen.
FlipYrWhig
They’ve had teabag envy all along. They figured, hey, we have at least as many impotent loudmouths on our side and no one fears our hollow threats! But click this petition link and you too can be a Real Liberal Activist!
ETA: And, no, it’s not “the left.” It’s a bunch of posers. It’s one step more dignified than Erick Erickson mailing out the Prop Du Jour to express mild outrage as flatulent as it is petulant.
Yutsano
@Bender:
Umm, wrong. Once the mandatory budget is out of the way, the tax overlays means someone ain’t getting paid. That’s a default. You get to choose if it’s Grandma or soldiers. You can’t get both.
Uncle Clarence Thomas
.
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@50 shano
I don’t think so. They – unlike you, the balloonbagger center-right – do not want President Obama, or America, to fail.
.
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shano
UCT, while the real Clarence Thomas does want America to fail, but not until he rakes in all the cash he can,
I really think the far left wants America to preserve the New Deal, to have a health care system that functions well …
Hamshers biggest cause is the health insurance system since she had first hand experience of how bad it really is when she got cancer. Most of us would be on the same war path, too, if we were in her shoes.
Look at Bernie Sanders, he voted for the health care bill because he was able to successfully negotiate for community health center money, states right to single payer, etc. Kucinich ended up voting for this bill, too.
Maybe the far left is better than the baggers, come to think of it. They dont do a damn thing except cause chaos.
hhex65
Well, I’ll tell you what: I became a Libertarian when they tried to outlaw cockfighting in my state. We lost that battle and we’ll lose this one.
Bender
Ummmm, no, it’s really not. If you’re not paying the bondholders, that’s a default. Not paying soldiers, Grandma, etc., would just be reducing entitlements.
Not going to happen, though. There is enough of a government tax revenue stream to pay the interest, major entitlements, and federal workers, even without a rise in the debt ceiling (which the media and Democrats — but I repeat myself — don’t want you to know, so Obama can scare voters).
Thus far in fiscal 2011, according to the Daily Treasury Statement for July 6, federal tax revenues have been $1.622312 trillion while the combined expenditures for interest, plus Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, Veterans Affairs and federal workers’ salaries and insurance have been 1.467127 trillion. That has left $155.185 billion in additional tax revenue to spend on other things.
Bender
Oh, and of course:
CORPORATE JETS! BOO! CORPORATE JETS GONNA GITCHU!
That one was for the focus groups.
vh
July is the 10th month of the Federal fiscal year, so as of July 6 there are three months left in the year. The Feds have thus spent about 160B per month this year, according to your figures (and do they include the military?). Your 155B thus covers ONE MONTH, which takes us to August 6. And guess what, that is when the money runs out and the debt ceiling has to be raised. You fail Math 101.
Linkmeister
Joe Klein really really doesn’t like Eric Cantor and Mitch McConnell: Cantor to the Woodshed.
AxelFoley
@Mike Kay (Team America):
[coughcoughRachelMaddowcoughcough]
Yutsano
Nope. Veterans Affairs is a totally different animal from Department of Defense spending. How convenient especiall with this big tell:
Why does Bender hate the troops?
Linkmeister
I was unaware that soldiers’ pay was now considered an entitlement.
Comrade Kevin
@Yutsano:
He sure seems to be keen on the idea of them being killed, that’s for sure.
Yutsano
@Comrade Kevin:
Good point. I’m sure Dubya on the flight deck with his codpiece gave him an especially stiff woody. Ahh to return to those halcyon days of stage managed photo-ops.
dogwood
This seems an odd thing to say. Where would anyone who actually follows politics to the extent he comments on blogs like this, ever get the idea that Barack Obama struggles to maintain this so called “air”. I’m pretty sure his patience is running low right now, but to think he struggles to be patient, calm, gracious etc. Is ludicrous. It’s no struggle. That’s who he is. Are the faction of the dem. party who frequent FDL, and comment here about their disdain for the man so emotionally intemperate themselves, they can’t accept the idea that anyone who doesn’t scream, yell, or pound the podium 24/7 doesn’t care about the cause. Don’t any of these people know at least one person like Obama? My father was the most even-tempered person, I ever knew. He died when I was 42, and he never once in my life raised his voice to me, or said an unkind word to any of his children. We got mad at him plenty, but he refused to return the favor. Right now Boehner is crying in his beer, Cantor is whipping up the rage among the tp caucus, and McConnell is pissed as hell that those 2 dicks could cost him a chance to become majority leader. Meanwhile, the president has one more day of this nonsense about debt reduction to play itself out and then the real or faux negotiations end. He’ll make an address to the American people. He’ll be calm and reasonable but firm, I imagine. However, he hopes that the American people won’t be so calm, and that they’ll take his side. We’ll see what happens then. Because after tomorrow, there’s no time to make any deals on the deficits and taxes before Aug. 2. It will be raise the debt ceiling or default. He’s betting that Cantor and McConnell screaming and Boehner crying, won’t be appealing to a majority of voters.
dogwood
I think the reason that the President hasn’t been out front as fast as you want, or flooded the zone before is further proof that LD might be right. He’s waiting for time to run out on the ability to strike a deal. He’ll tell the American people all about the goodies he offered and how the Reps. refused to deal. He’ll be oh so sorry that it didn’t work out, but we must now put that behind us and deal with the looming crisis if the ceiling isn’t raised. After that his people will be all over the news. Republicans will try to hold their ground and talk about cuts, and the dems will say- you had your chance, but now we must uphold the full faith and credit of the US. Dems would be fools not to play the patriotism card right back at the reps.
Mike Kay (Team America)
This is what the agony of defeat looks like
http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Mitch+McConnell+McConnell+Heads+White+House+0xxLCdVJn1xl.jpg
middlewest
I give even odds that Jane Hamsher goes on Russia Today to discuss the Chicago 2012 Olympics before the end of the week.
OzoneR
What a hilariously pathetic argument.
OzoneR
i thought he had a bully pulpit, now he doesn’t? No wonder the Democrats can’t keep their message straight, neither can the left.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
Bender @49
Sure, people in Chicago- with some pretty nasty neighborhoods itself- were disappointed. People in Manchester are always shocked when they get turned down, too, and they get turned down all the time.
But consider this- Brazil (and as mentioned before, its continent) has never hosted and Olympiad, Spain has hosted one Summer Olympiad, Japan has hosted one Summer and two Winter Olympiads, and the US has hosted four of the Summer Games and four Winter Games. And the main stadiums for those last two Summer Olympiads hosted here- L.A. and Atlanta- are located in not-so-wonderful neighborhoods.
Sleeper
I’ve had plenty of good reason to complain about President Obama, but come on…the Chicago Olympics thing? Besides people in Chicago who might lose out on some business five years from now (a legitimate gripe, I guess), does ANYONE give a shit about that already-forgotten “failure?” Who fucking cares?
As far as Jane Hamsher goes, this blog is completely and ludicrously obsessed with her. I like some of the things she says, disagree with other things she says, and that’s it. She has no army of flying monkeys at her beck and call. She’s a self-promoter who also happens to be (in my opinion) sincerely convinced her cause and tactics are right. You guys make her out to be the Lex Luthor of the liberal blogosphere, and it’s ridiculous. She has about the same amount of power that John has: zero. You forfeit the right to mock the teabaggers when you natter on and on and on about the supposedly irreparable damage done to the progressive movement by a woman that 99% of the country has never heard of.
alwhite
Look, I have criticized President Obama when I thought he was wrong and been taunted as a firebagger and I have have praised him when I thought he did well and been accused of being an obot. It seems increasingly like people on this board are getting way too sensitive to differences of opinion. Any deviation from what you may think is not an automatic indication that the other person has evil intent. One of the things that makes me a liberal is the wide variety of views I can hold at the same time and the understanding that I might be wrong and new evidence may appear that makes me change my mind.
I would love for this group to accept that not everyone who worries about what the President offered to do to Social Security is a firebagger (what if the Rs had called his bluff and taken the deal?) and not everyone who was confident that the President was totally in control of the situation is an obot (what if this really was the 11D chess?).
The Dems need an active left that demands more simply because of the weight that the Blew Dogs have. They also need a moderate wing so as to not go off the deep end as the wingnuts have. There should always be some tension between these groups. If we could just drop the petty name calling and bickering and just argue our points or explain our positions this would be a lot more pleasant and productive.
RossInDetroit
Just woke up *yawn*.
I had this crazy idea that the Republicans knew they couldn’t win this so to protect as many as possible politically they drafted Cantor to take a fall. Draw fire and take the bullet. Screw up good and act nuts so the rest look sane and reasonable.
This plan would require that those sociopaths cooperate and one of them sacrifices for the rest so, yeah, probably didn’t happen. But that’s what my brain came up with while I was still asleep.
Pat
“Both sides do it”, they say? Let us make one, and only one observation on the way “both sides do it.”
We have “heard” that one point the Republicans will not budge on is “forcing” corporations to take the depreciation of their corporate jets worth millions of dollars (known as ASSETS)over a seven year period rather than the five years they now enjoy.
Now on the other side we have the Democrats considering selling out retirees by upping the Medicare eligibility from 65 to 67 years old.
It must be that two year thing when they say “both sides do it.”
WereBear
I think the Republicans are just that stupid. Occam’s razor.
John Puma
I’m surprised Reid got 51 votes.
You can always count on Ben “ADM” Nelson and Mark “Tyson” Pryor to undermine the party whose identifying initial for some reason follows their names.
Was Mary “BP” Landrieu absent?
kay
I guess it depends on how one looks at the world, because I sort of admired him for taking the risk. He was the only one who was going to lose, it was all upside for Chicago/US if he won. He took a personal risk of public failure, with no real downside to anyone else but him. I think that’s admirable. To try. Now, I also know there was an upside to him if he won, but still.
What right-wing-round-table-thought-experiment group were cheering when Chicago/Obama lost? I don’t remember. One of those unprofitable hack factories. Anyway, I just loathed conservatives, personally, for cheering his failure. So disgusting, to watch someone put themselves out there, personally, and then see people cheering when that person fails.
They’re truly horrible human beings, Bender. They sit on their asses in those cushy think tank confines and OPINE on risk and failure. Like they know JACK SHIT about any of that.
kay
Oh, and just so we’re clear. He tried. He failed. True. Chalk one point up on your pathetic little score board. He’ll try again and he’ll fail again, at something. That’ll be your next “win”.
Emma
Bnder at 33: Jesus. If you’re that ignorant of Olympics politics don’t embarrass yourself by showing it. Chicago had at best an outside chance, as the Olympics Committee has been looking for a while for a South American venue.
(edit): Someone got there before me. Several someones.
Bobby Thomson
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Chicago Olympics? Seriously?
Thank you for your concession that you can’t point to any substantive negotiating failures relating to American governance. At least not without losing the space to do some ratfucking later by pretending to sympathize with disaffected liberals.
You really should choose a different handle that doesn’t defame alcoholic, porn-loving robots.
Sko Hayes
The Obama thinking is simple- Republicans don’t have support in their caucus for raising taxes(the one thing Obama is insisting on) or the debt ceiling , although Reid is fairly confident he can get to 60 votes to raise the debt ceiling in a clean bill. Boehner will have to appeal to house Democrats to pass it there.
If Republicans refuse to raise the debt ceiling, the markets crash, and big money deserts the GOP (Wall St and Chamber of Commerce). If they agree to raise taxes, their base deserts them and stays home in 2012.
Obama has put them between a very big rock and a very hard place.
lol
I love how for weeks it was “Obama doesn’t know anything about Negotiating 101 and he’s a stupid spineless wimp.”
But now, it’s “Obama ain’t all that smart, he was just taking the most obvious course of action that was obvious to everyone.”
Quincy
From the Politico article:
“Obama lit him up. Cantor sat in stunned silence,” said an official in the meeting. “It was incredible. If the public saw Obama he would win in a landslide.”
Nemesis
If current reports are accurate, my distrust of the prez was out of line. Actually, Im happy to say this.
Also, too, dontcha feel bad for lil’ eric canker. Hes like the big boy who still sits at the kiddie table for Thanksgiving dinner.
goopers are having a really bad week. Time for a misdirection. Look…sumpin shiny!
rikryah
He was on point
Ash Can
@Quincy: I don’t think Obama likes that conniving, power-hungry little shit at all. The more I read about the meeting yesterday, the more obvious it becomes that Obama didn’t walk out on the meeting, he walked out on Eric Cantor.
Larkspur
Nemesis at 87: This is a refreshing, smart comment. I like it.
chopper
you can always count on bender to shove his head up his ass and argue that the sky is brown. brilliant show.
bemused
Martin@38
An unnatural enhancement is more likely.
Bruce S
So Obama didn’t put an offer to raise Medicare eligibility on the table by two years. And if he did, I’m supposed to cheer his genius because it’s all about him being engaged in a jiu-jitsu match with Eric Cantor that he appears to be winning.
Tell it to anyone who’s is 64.5 and can’t wait to get their Medicare…
This “told you so-ing” is bullshit. What I’m telling you is that no Democrat should EVER propose to the GOP to raise the age of Medicare eligibility. And fuck anyone who thinks otherwise…
End of that piece of the story. Yeah, Obama is winning this tactically, but he’s validated some absolutely unacceptable GOP bullshit that will bite our asses down the line. He’s smarter than me because he’s pulling this brinksmanship off, but I’ll be damned if being a Democrat entails some obedience to the notion that whatever Maximum Leader does or says is always right under every circumstance. Putting this on the table will have consequences in other contexts. To assume otherwise is infantile.
Quite frankly, this kind of putting the gamesmanship in the forefront of political debates is the mentality of the Beltway MSM and it’s one reason this country’s politics are so f-ed up.
Bruce S
Incidentally, if the reports are true – and I’ll trust Ezra Klein as a “non-firebagger” moderate liberal who believes they are – that Obama suggested that raising Medicare eligibility by two years was “on the table” or part of some implied “Grand Bargain”, the people in these threads who said that Jay Carney’s “cuts” didn’t mean benefit cuts are totally full of shit. I’m prepared to accept apologies…
And so far as O’Donnell’s comment about folks on the “left” who feared Obama would cave – that wasn’t my concern. My concern was the the GOP would accept the deal he was offering. It was a terrible deal for Democrats…and for the country. Indistinguishable from anything the economists from the American Enterprise Institute were suggesting. O’Donnell actually has that piece totally backward. Not really a very cogent analysis.
chopper
@Bruce S:
a 64.5 year old with no insurance will have access to comprehensive private insurance under obamacare until they’re eligible for medicare. whether the medicare age is 65 or 67. that whole line of argument is a non-starter.
Dr. Squid
No kidding. What kind of “negotiations” are there anyway in getting an Olympics? The USA has had the games 4 times now, and it was 52 years between trips to El Lay. Seriously, what do people expect?
Bruce S
Chopper @ 95: Bullshit. Unless you can tell me what the cost of a private policy for a 65-67 year old will be when ACA kicks in.
But of course, you can’t. By your logic, we might as well just go the Paul Ryan route because – hey – we’ll get vouchers and it doesn’t matter whether you’ve got private insurance or Medicare.
And are you aware of the fact – probably not, given your glib response – that putting 65-67 year olds in the private market would increase the aggregate cost of their care as % of GDP. (Check out the CBO’s reports on the cost of “Ryancare” if you don’t understand why this is true.)
By your logic, it doesn’t matter if the Medicare eligibility age is 65 or 85. Because the ACA has already solved all of the private market problems.
Which of course is completely absurd. So don’t tell me about “non-starters” when you obviously aren’t getting yourself out of the gate.
Why would anyone be so desperate to defend this crap idea? If some GOP asshole proposed raising the Medicare eligibility age, would you be explaining to me why it doesn’t really matter ?
Bruce S
To put this in context, I had a conversation yesterday with a friend who is on Medicare, but whose wife isn’t 65 for another half-year. She lost her job and is on COBRA, which is the mandated extension of coverage. But it’s costing an arm and a leg. ACA doesn’t solve all of these cost problems overnight – everyone with even a grain of information on the legislation acknowledges that it’s a work in progress and will take long-term reforms to make affordable care truly universal and keep inflation of health care costs under control. Medicare currently is doing this far better than private markets, but there’s no magic bullet in sight. If the eligibility age were 67, these folks would be royally screwed for the foreseeable future. Even if her eligibilty was mandated, there is no way private insurers would cover people in the 65-67 age range at as low cost to the insured as Medicare. It’s impossible, given their profits and additioinal overhead. Terrible idea and there’s no sugar-coating it. And playing “brinksmanship” with an utterly insane GOP – on the assumption that they won’t take the deal, or something – doesn’t turn it into a sensible or decent policy proposal. Why shrink the most cost-effective segment of the health insurance sector that actually exists in exchange for some faint hope about what might be whenever. The dollars and “sense” of this don’t add up. Not even a little bit. And the apologetics on this one are pretty pathetic and ill-considered.
But hey – look over there! Lawrence O’Donnell said something or other…
Judas Escargot
It would also add additional pressure for some kind of Public Option/Medicare for All to be implemented in the future (which is the real reason the GOP won’t allow the age range to go up– they lose a big chunk of the “I Got Mine” bloc they’ve been using to block health care reform).
No plan has been announced leaving people currently in their 60s out in the cold. In fact, except for the one leaked factoid about raising the age to 67, nothing has been announced at all.
So it’s not freakout time just yet.
Bruce S
I’m not freaking out. I’m stating facts some folks apparently don’t like to hear. This cutting folks out of Medicare – even over some extended “phase out” – is a bullshit idea and increases the cost of care, both to the insured and in aggregate according to any known data that actually exists in the real world, rather than hopes and dreams.
You are grasping at a straw (“additional pressure for Public Option/Medicare for All”.) Medicare is simply and truly the best health insurance program we’ve got in this country. Any suggestions about shrinking it don’t even begin to qualify as sensible public policy, much less liberal policy. It is sending signals TOTALLY in the wrong direction.
“leaked factoid” = terrible fucking idea that gives cranks like Paul Ryan ammunition moving forward, that sends the totally wrong signal to older voters and implies that “Medicare” is part of our “spending problem” – when in fact there isn’t a “spending problem” but a revenue problem and Medicare is saving the country money on health care costs that would be pissed away if the program shrank. Dumb idea and no amount of contorted apologetics or weak rationalization changes the facts. No Democrat should ever signal that shrinking Medicare is part of a “solution” to anything. It could only make things worse. And it bows to a central and completely bogus GOP talking point.
Incidentally, if part of Obama’s Jedi strategem is that he wants the electorate to see him pissing off his own base, then his own base had damn well better get pissed off or his genius plan loses a key component. Just saying…
The Tragically Flip
@Bruce S:
Yes. I’ll also say I’m not really impressed at Obama’s demonstration of spine when what he is rejecting is a short term deal because he wants a “grand bargain” and even the best case scenario of that grand bargain is pretty god damned shitty. What was the left edge of this thing, 17% new revenues to 83% spending cuts?
And all we had to give up was the Democratic party’s reputation as the defenders of Social Security and Medicare. Nothing big, just the party’s entire raison d’etre since 1935.
Lawnguylander
As someone put it in a previous thread, can’t remember who or in which one, we constantly get told that SS and/or Medicare benefit cuts are right around the corner, six months max, a la a Friedman unit, but it never happens. I propose this mintellectual exercise be called a Digby unit. As for the Medicare age hike, this is the kind of reporting promoted as impeccably accurate to wedge that:
I concede that there are plenty of well meaning people stupid enough to read this and that Washington Post column by Lori Montgomery uncritically and proceed to try and spread their panic. “Let’s harden varied accounts and statements from unnamed Republican aides into conventional emosphere wisdom, everybody!” Just don’t get upset if others see you for what you are as a result, though.
rcman
C’mon Tragically Flip, don’t you understand that you’re supposed to be giving high-fives all around because Obama out-maneuvered Boehner et al. by being an adult and agreeing to that ratio ? I don’t think you understand that the appearance of a win is the important thing . Anything, no matter how it needs to be contorted to be seen as a victory for Obama is a good thing. Extending Bush Tax Cuts – big win. The new 83% of cuts – also big win ! And if you don’t think so, you’re a firebagger or asshat or whatever. Also, because nothing’s been agreed to yet, you need to CTFD. Once those 83% of cuts have taken place we’ll know how much Obama’s won and we can mock you and your kind some more. Wahoo!
Bruce S
And “don’t get upset if others see you for what you are as a result” of defending the notion that putting this stuff on the table might be a smart thing for a Democratic President.
The White House can make it clear if these reports are wrong. Jay Carney used the term “cuts” in reference to Medicare, which supports “concerns” that these reports are accurate.
Since reporters as sober as Ezra Klein appear to believe they are real proposals as part of the “brinksmanship,” it’s pretty stupid to suggest that discussing the implications of any such strategy is bowing to “emosphere.” Even sans the signals about Medicare and SS, the White House proposal was indistinguisable in it’s cuts-revenues “balance” from the right-wing AEI’s economists proposals that were on John Boehner’s website (they were done for a congressional majority committe report.)
Frankly, the stuff we’ve been getting from the “ant-emo” side has struck me as pretty hysterical and unwilling to consider evidence as opposed to their obvious emotional connections. The President isn’t our boyfriend. I’ll wager I’ve done more than most of the commenters here to support Obama going back to ’07. But I have enough respect for the man to assume he’s at least as adult as I am and can handle some criticism, some push from the left and some tough questions as President. He asked for that the second time I heard him speak in person – a little over four years ago. He was right to ask. I’ll continue to respect his request.
Lawnguylander
“On the table is the new “under the bus” of hack, amateur punditry. A meaningless cliche that offers no regard for actual political outcomes but around which long, panicked comments can be constructed. Go ahead spending your time panicking over things that aren’t going to happen but I’m not going to join you.
Bruce S
What has happened – and I’m not “panicked” (sic) so you can shove your own hysterical rhetoric where appropriate – is that certain issues have been raised as “negotiable” in a particular context. This was a bad idea and plays into the GOP’s narrative of the “spending and entitlements crisis” – which “crisis” is carefully constructed bullshit that Democrats need to push back with something better than a “Grand Bargain” proposal that reinforces the notion that Medicare and Social Security have anything at all to do with the extremity of our current fiscal problems. They don’t.
Yes, the inclusion of Medicare in the debt ceiling negotiatons by a Democratic President is something that has actually happened. It’s a terrible idea. Deal with it. If you want to defend it, fine. But don’t act like nothing of significance has happened when a Democrat echoes central GOP talking points. And if the White House denies it has happened, I’ll be the first to applaud.
Also, your offering strikes me as hack and amateur. Just saying…
The Tragically Flip
@Lawnguylander:
Did you consider that progressive freak outs may have something to do with why it never happens? I wouldn’t give them 100% or even 90% of the credit, but a vocal opposition who can alert the populace whenever the elites are plotting to steal from them probably does make the elites wary about actually doing it.
ABL
Ezra Klein and Paul Krugman both cite Huffington Post: “The Huffington Post is reporting that five separate sources, including Democrats and Republicans, are saying that the White House broached raising the Medicare eligibility age from 65 to 67.”
Seriously? “Five separate sources”? “[I]ncluding Democrats and Republicans”? Are they the same as the sources who are familiar with the Administration’s thinking and caused the freakout two weeks ago?
Come the fuck on.
ABL
The progressive freakouts do serve a purpose: To alert the swing voters who love bipartisanship that Obama seems willing to “sell out” his base in order to move the country forward.
So yes, I think the progressive freakouts are relevant, but I think it’s foolish to think that Obama was totes gonna slash SS if not for the keening masses of progressives.
bcgister
For all it’s worth at this time, I’ll put my two cents in with Bruce S.: the long term costs of Obama’s reported willingness to trade significant cuts in the traditional mainstays of Democratic politics at a 5 to 1 rate for revenue increases are unknown and worrisome. It may, in time, prove to be too high a price to pay for the pleasure that may come from the gamesmanship with which President’s outmaneuvers the Republican leadership in these negotiations.
DFH no.6
kay @80 (in regards to those cheering the failed Chicago Olympics bid):
Jesus Lord, kay! The asshole fascist troll Bender is himself/herself a truly horrible human being.
Not because Bender is a troll, or even because Bender is an asshole. But because Bender is a fascist, and is thus an avowed enemy of mankind.
Who the hell did you think you were responding to?
rcman
The important thing is to stay calm while NixonInChina-Obama bamboozles Boehner and decides where the $1.7 or $2.4 or $4.2 trillion gets cut. After it’s fait accompli, you will be informed. That will be your signal to start cheering. Luckily, it will be Obama deciding what to shred, so you can relax, knowing that it’s in His merciful hands.
Lawnguylander
@Bruce S
That’s the proper spelling, genius. And you can wallow in your panic all you want but your long-winded, pseudo-intellectual nonsense about narratives and gullible vulnerability to weakly sourced, out of context reporting have no power over me. You’re just someone to be laughed at.
@The Tragically Flip
If you mean the kind of hysteria Bruce S and other more prominent fabulists of his type engage in, then, yeah, long enough to get a laugh out of the idea.