A rare moment of honest self-reflection from a Republican:
South Carolina Sen. Lindsey Graham conceded Wednesday that he and his fellow Republicans are now eating their own words as they try to convince the country they are working to stave off a federal default.
“Our problem is we made a big deal about this for three months. How many Republicans have been on TV saying, ‘I’m not going to raise the debt limit.’ You know, Mitch [McConnell] says, ‘I’m not going to raise the debt limit unless we talk about Medicare.’ And I’ve said I’m not going to raise the debt limit until we do something about spending and entitlements.’ So we’ve got nobody to blame but ourselves,” Graham told reporters after a GOP caucus lunch.
“We shouldn’t have said that if we didn’t mean it.”
If he would just extend that outward and realize that the GOP has been spoon-feeding their teatard base an entire menu of lies and bullshit to the point that it has become toxic for the Republicans to even attempt to work with Democrats or lead, he might be on to something.
Nemesis
There is a tear in the Matrix.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
It’s Lindsey Graham. He’ll forget he even said it by the end of the day.
Culture of Truth
But if the debt limit isn’t raised… Obama’s fault!
Cat Lady
Fix’t.
zmulls
Man, this is the best news for John McCain so far today!
beltane
This is what happens when you outsource the education of your base to Fox News, Lindsay.
Ash Can
That’s the GOP version of “a clue” right there, in a nutshell. Nice one, Lindsey.
Han's Solo
Question: Can you overdose on schadenfreude?
I wonder how Hamsher’s Firetards are going to turn this into something bad that Obama did.
Han's Solo
@zmulls:
That’s idiotic!
Hee Hee!
kwAwk
What got me yesterday is Obama saying: “Ronald Reagan wouldn’t be sitting here doing this!”
Ummm yeah. He wouldn’t because for all his faults Reagan actually did know when to push the chair away from the table and walk away from negotiations.
Obama really doesn’t. You ever hear the saying about how people who are honest have a hard time believing/understanding that other people aren’t?
Mattminus
I suspect a “anyone who accurately quotes me is lying” will be coming any second now…
drkrick
Graham is an interesting case. He tries hard to toe the Tea Party line in what I suspect will be a hopeless effort to get renominated in South Carolina, but occasionally he can’t fight off the urge to acknowledge reality for a few dozen hours at a time before walking it back.
Dexter
Lindsey probably woke up that morning with a horse’s head on his bed.
Legalize
Remember, Obama warned the GOPers about this when he addressed them at their little retreat in 2009.
dmsilev
So, what random object will Erick Erickovich demand that his followers mail to Lindsey? Graham crackers?
General Stuck
Listening to MSNBC, when they bring on these new tea party clowns in the House, they sound like some kind of demented Boy Scouts on a field trip to extort what they can, and burn the rest. They not only have no clue on the consequences of their behavior, they simply do not care to learn, or learn to care.
Carnival barking sociopaths programmed to monkey wrench without remorse. Just listened to one deliver his analysis on anything that Obama is for, it has to be bad, and he is against it. You can’t govern with mendacious, racist fools like these nihilist miscreants in charge of a chamber of congress.
Seems to me the GOP is at a massive fork in the road, one direction is the normal GOP selfish, but self aware of limits and a longer term plan to get what they want. And the other to a permanent tribal clusterfuck.
Han's Solo
Was Butter’s statement, “Not intended to be a factual statement?”
I pity Graham. He belongs to a political party that loathes people like him. Who would want that? It makes about as much sense as a black person wanting to join the Klan.
Which reminds me, did any of ya’all see the Daily Show last night? There was a bit about Marcus Bachmann that you really, really, really ought to see.
Chris
The amazing thing is that it’s taken so long. The Southern strategy was put into practice over forty years ago. For all that time, the GOP’s done nothing but spoon-feed the teatards entire menus of bullshit just to stir them up against the Democrats, and expected that they’d simply pipe down, CTFO and just forget about it the minute they were no longer needed.
By and large, that’s exactly what the teatards and their forefathers have done. But not this time.
I wonder if the “Bush was a liberal” meme might’ve had something to do with it. The only way they could recover from the disaster of the Bush years was by rebranding the party and claiming that Bush (good God, BUSH) and his buddies were really liberals. Hence the idea that all the top ranks of the GOP are really possessed by The Liberal Conspiracy, which has driven their base to new heights of paranoia and given them license to suspect everyone, even their masters.
gene108
Reagan also knew when he had to compromise with Democrats in the Congress, in order to govern and actually negotiated and compromised his positions in order to get some things he favored passed into law.
DBrown
This is the same Lindesy who went along with Obama’s choice for the Supreme Court nominee since Lindesy stated that this was Obama’s choice and the Senete should respect that … so, I’m not all that surprised. When push comes to shove, Graham tends to go back to the old days of being sane
kindness
John you are acting like the Republican party actually cares about America and Americans. Oh sure, they care about millionaires and billionaires and huge multinational corporations, but they’re actions speak louder than any words. They could give a shit about most Americans. They are telling us with their actions that most Americans are shit stuck to the bottom of their Mephistos that they don’t even want to touch to scrape us off like repellant garbage.
The chickens are coming home to roost for the Teabaggers. Funny thing is they see this and think they are winning. Wall Street should be crapping their pants about now. They bought and paid for this group of losers.
Han's Solo
As Steve Bennen points out this morning, the truly remarkable thing is that many of the Inbred Birth Defects Called Tea Baggers (IBDCTB) are now saying it was Obama who took the debt ceiling hostage.
They really are stupid and crazy.
Maude
@gene108:
You know we’re in trouble when the current GOP makes Ronnie Raygun look good.
Xenocrates
Newsflash! Blind squirrel finds nut! Film at 11!!!
Culture of Truth
The Tea Party always wanted the debt ceiling raised! Also they fought for rescuing Detroit, gay marriage, and universal health care!
Bludger
Lindsey will have to lie 10 times to repent for telling the truth for once.
Zifnab
Reagan knew how to cut a bargain with Tip O’Neal and come out looking like a winner while O’Neal came out looking fair and compromising. Unfortunately, Obama doesn’t have a Tip O’Neal in John Boehner. If Boehner gets 99% of what he asks for, he still loses because he was caught compromising with the President.
If Obama can talk the Republicans into signing a tax increase deal, the GOP base will eat its own. And with the Bush Tax Cuts due for another extension next year, I’m curious to see how that will be leveraged. Congress does nothing and taxes still go up.
Obama is in a very different place than Reagan.
OzoneR
Wow, you know nothing about Reagan’s Presidency, do you?
RP
Huh? Didn’t he say that in the context of walking away from the negotiations.
bob h
The thing that is really dangerous about the Republicans is their sheer stupidity.
Villago Delenda Est
The Teatards know what they don’t like, above all other things: the near guy in the WH.
Everything else they spout about is pretense.
Montysano
As I noted in an earlier thread, I was in a car for long periods Tuesday and Wednesday, so I had a chance to listen to some wingnut radio. It was obvious that the new talking points had been handed out: “If the debt ceiling is not raised, nothing bad will happen on 8/2”.
Is this just flailing? Just a Hail Mary pass? Because if no deal is reached, and 8/2 came and went without incident, Obama’s cred would take a huge hit. Has the GOP made some sort of unholy deal with Wall Street? Is such a thing possible?
Yeah, I know….. I’m way out on a limb here.
Dave
Y’know…has anyone been talking about other fallout from a default? Like the dollar crashing? And how about two other issues:
1. Will the dollar still be the world’s primary reserve currency?
2. Will oil still continue to be priced in dollars?
As bad as the rest is, if those two things change the economy will crater as everyone ditches their dollars
kwAwk
No. According to the Dems he said it in the context of ending the current day’s meeting.
burnspbesq
@Han’s Solo:
“I wonder how Hamsher’s Firetards are going to turn this into something bad that Obama did.”
Patience. They’ll get to that as soon as they figure out a way to get France into the final of the Women’s World Cup because they played prettier football than the big, mean Americans.
Ron
@Han’s Solo: That was just awesome. But not really as amazing as Colbert’s bit about the GOP and the debt ceiling negotiations. That was hilarious and pretty spot on.
Culture of Truth
Indeed, those are the new wingnut talking points; raising the question – what are the wingers making such a big deal about it for? Either it matters or it doesn’t.
Gregory
I don’t disagree, but don’t forget that the Republicans have been selling the American people — and themselves! — lies and bullshit as far back as I can remember. From Reagan’s “tax cuts raise revenue” nonsense — which is now gospel among Republicans, of course — to Nixon’s claim to have a secret plan to end the Vietnam war (send more troops!) to the current crop of candidates’ refusal to acknowledge science, to embrace Republicanism is to embrace the smoke and mirrors of pure fantasy.
Kane
When republicans spend more than three years vilifying all-things-Obama, it makes it rather difficult for them to come to any agreement with Obama without being portrayed by their base as a RINO.
When they convince their flock that the definition of compromise is weakness, it tends to make compromising on a deal somewhat difficult to do.
kindness
Han’s Solo@17
wrt Michelle Bachmann’s husband? yea….that man fires up my gaydar like the 4th of July. And you know what? More power to him if he was a functional closeted gay. I wish he didn’t have to be though. It isn’t evil nor sinful in my world. In his though….
Jennifer
Montysano – yeah, you’re way out on a limb. First of all, since it’s a wingnut talking point, it is, by definition, false.
But even beyond that…so we get to Aug 2 with no increase…someone doesn’t get paid. Lots of someones. Whoever those someones are start looking for money from other sources – their savings or private investment accounts, bank loans, etc. Suddenly you’ve got tightening of the money supply and interest rates start climbing. Plus of course, the whole world is freaked out because the US has stopped paying its bills, and who knows how bad that plays out. Given that economies are abstract constructs entirely built on faith, all it takes to destroy them is loss of faith. The US defaulting on debt would be perhaps the biggest blow to faith in the world economy ever seen.
Bruce S
The “shrill” and “far Left” Financial Times columnist Martin Wolf calls the Tea Party GOPers “utopian revolutionaries, heedless of all consequences” as regards the debt ceiling tantrum. That or ignorant. Probably some combination of the two.
titanicsailsatdawn.blogspot.com/2011/07/gops-tea-party-jacobins.html
RP
So you define walking away as what, refusing to engage the other side at all? That would be very stupid.
Davis X. Machina
@Montysano: Not ‘not happen’. Not happen on 8/2.
There was loose talk — never common, but never absent — at places like DailyKos in the fall of 2008 about how we should, instead of TARP, auto bailouts, etc, just ‘let it all crash’, because it would, though painful in the short term, usher in a better, post-capitalist, less materialistic, less consumer-mad world, in which evil corporatists would be chastened and the rest of us get to discover, albeit under compulsion, the joys of subsistence farming and the simple life generally.
Now it’s the right’s turn, and they’re doing their own dreaming about the withering away of the social-democratic state and mixed economy.
Millennialism has a non-partisan, enduring human appeal. Each man his own Year Zero…
burnspbesq
@Montysano:
Bill Gross, who has a certain amount of credibility in such matters, says he expects yields on US securities to go up by 25 basis points in the event of a downgrade. Let’s see, 25 basis points on 13 trillion is … 32.5 billion a year in additional interest expense. Imagine what a federal government that’s serious about jump-starting a flagging recovery could do with 32.5 billion.
ppcli
What Obama meant was that the meeting had gone 2 1/2 hours, and Reagan couldn’t last that long without a nap.
Napoleon
No, if for no other reason a “free rider” problem. The likelyhood that one trader or hedgefund breaks with the others and starts trading on the belief that the US is in default and the rest of the world will wake up to it is 100%. It is an impossible to enforce deal.
Chris
Let me see if I understand this; defaulting = less money in circulation = less economic activity = ungood.
Say, that sounds a lot like what happens when the government lays off tons of people. And isn’t that another one of their big plans to restore wealth and awesomeness to the republic?
Culture of Truth
Montysano,
What is happening here (I believe) is they are preparing the shock troops for a possible failure to raise the ceiling. Under this storyline, this is not a big deal at all, and there is plenty of money lying around to pay for veteras and defense and Social Security – but then Obama would be forced to slash spending and get blamed for doing it! Hee hee hee.
In addition, they are selling the story that failure to raise the debt ceiling is not a big deal, but Obama has totally engineered this fake crisis from the beginning to make Republicans look bad, and will purposefully wreck the U.S. economy after August 3rd, and can you believe how victimized Republicans are, and how evil and nefarious this un-american Kenyan muslim is?!11??!1
mr. whipple
“though painful in the short term, usher in a better, post-capitalist, less materialistic, less consumer-mad world, in which evil corporatists would be chastened and the rest of us get to discover, albeit under compulsion, the joys of subsistence farming and the simple life generally.”
Post of the day.
Admiral_Komack
Han’s Solo:
July 14th, 2011 at 9:50 am
Question: Can you overdose on schadenfreude?
I wonder how Hamsher’s Firetards are going to turn this into something bad that Obama did.
*Don’t worry, THE RATFUCKER & her minions will find a way.
Chris
I’m confused. Did they want socialism, or did they just want a return to the pre-industrial age? Or both?
aimai
The “Ronald Reagan wouldn’t be sitting here doing this” comment doesn’t mean Ronald Reagan wouldn’t have bargained, or walked away from the table, but that Ronald Reagan’s presidency wasn’t being undermined and attacked by his counterparties in negotiations. Reagan either didn’t have to negotiate things directly, or did it all with a handshake deal with Tip on a golf course. The fact that Boehner is weak and inept and Cantor is nuts is what prevents Obama having a normal Presidency in which having the President sit down with everyone in Congress is an extremely rare favor. This is what Pelosi’s remark is pointing out–that ordinarily shlubs like Cantor don’t get to dictate the President’s time and options to him.
aimai
Chris
Oh, BLOODY hell. Go spit, WP.
I’m confused. Do they want soçialism, or do they just want to wind the clock back to before the Industrial Revolution? Or both?
Han's Solo
Chait has a good piece up about the secret issue at the heart of the budget fight. Guess what it is?
Omnes Omnibus
For many, it was 1976.
cat48
I’m beginning to suspect the prez is a masochist.
joes527
General Stuck
Are we back to “This is the end of the GOP!” now?
Because I so loved that when we were dancing on their grave in 2008
Han's Solo
@Chris:
You just don’t get it. You see, poor people are willing to, actually they are eager to, work for free so long as rich people get bigger tax cuts.
Step 1) Poor people work for free and subsist off cat food and dirt stew so that rich people get huge tax breaks.
Step 2) ??????
Step 3) Our economy does awesomely awesome!
Montysano
@Jennifer:
Yeah, I knew I was, but the only other explanation is that the nihilistic burn-it-to-the-ground Tea Party mindset has infected people in very high places. Not a comforting thought, but apparently true.
drkrick
No, he said in the context of shutting it down for the evening. “See you tomorrow” was the cryptic tell, in case you missed it.
Monkey Business
The more and more I study this, the more and more I’m convinced that we’re going to default. The GOP is too dug in. They’ve spent years wading deeper and deeper into the crazy end of the pool, and now they’re in over their heads. The Democrats are throwing them a life preserver, but they can’t take it.
eemom
I think Graham Cracker has decided not to run for reelection. I can’t conceive of any other reason he would say this.
Davis X. Machina
@Chris: Both. Revolutionaries are always nostalgists. The brave new world usually turns out to be cleaned-up past. With better gadgets — and folk-dancing.
mr. whipple
I thought he has set a Friday deadline. Hope he’s not backtracking.
Citizen_X
Dear Dr. Frankenstein: it’s a little late to regret bringing the creature to life.
drkrick
Walking away from negotiations is usually defined as breaking off talks entirely for awhile. They were already wrapping up for the day when Cantor showed his ass, so this was just a case of showing that he was pissed off at the time.
scav
Camp David, huh? Nice little geographic echo there.
catclub
Zifnab wrote: “If Obama can talk the Republicans into signing a tax increase deal, the GOP base will eat its own. And with the Bush Tax Cuts due for another extension next year, I’m curious to see how that will be leveraged. Congress does nothing and taxes still go up.”
I have seen discussions that imply that actually, Obama has pretty much accepted that AT LEAST the under $250k Bush tax cut is permanent, and that THIS deal, if it includes taxes, means trading acceptance of all the Bush tax cuts for increases elsewhere. The tax increases in the proposed deal are not relative to present law ( the bush tax cuts expire), but present policy – they will never go away.
In that case, Obama really does NOT want to veto a bill (in 2013) that keeps all the Bush tax cuts.
xian
in re (22): “Tea Baggers… are now saying it was Obama who took the debt ceiling hostage.”
Great, so then he can release the hostage by offering a clean debt-ceiling raise?
Comrade Dread
Translation: The Big Money boys have called and want us to raise the debt limit, but we’ve convinced 27% of the country that doing so is the 2nd coming of Stalin.
General Stuck
It should be obvious that the GOP as we have known it for the past 40 years is no more. The fact they won a mid term that parties out of power always win, does not change that basic fact. Now whether they can cobble together something like a coherent campaign to win in 2012, who knows? Though the reality seems against that.
It should be also obvious, there is much turmoil on Planet Wingnut right now, and it looks more and more like a Many Headed Freek Show more so every day. The penchant for too many American voters to ignore this and still vote GOP, is not a statement on the life and health of the GOP, but on the voters who vote for the circus acts we see wingnuts entertain with every single day.
Omnes Omnibus
@ Monkey Business:
There are 193 Democrats in the House at the moment. If they vote as a block (on a clean bill, for example), there only need to be 25 GOP representatives who are more beholden to Wall Street than the Tea Party for default to be avoided. For every D who won’t go along, you would need one more R. My guess is you would need only 30 GOPers in the House to do it.
Culture of Truth
That’s it – he’s dead to me.
Davis X. Machina
He ran on this, if I recall. One can be disappointed, but one cannot be surprised.
catclub
Monkey Business @ 61
I agree. The Rush Limbaugh argument is: ‘On August 3, we can pay all of our ‘mandatory’ bills, so there is no crisis.’
but it does not ask, what happens if nothing changes for a month? Can we still pay our bills? Of course not.
The RL argument still is assuming that it all gets fixed in a few days relative to August 2. How? No mention of what actual deal has to be struck.
Davis X. Machina
@Omnes Omnibus:
Bye-bye Boehner. Probably McCarthy and Cantor too, if that happens. They’ll keep their seats, most likely, but it would be fatal. They need a hundred at least for a fig leaf.
In a parliamentary system that’s the sort to thing that topples governments. Here, the House GOP leadership wouldn’t survive.
catclub
Omnes @ 72 But if those 25-30 KNOW they are falling on their swords, how do you get even that many volunteers?
Offer them pork for their districts? It is gone with the earmark ban!
There was an interesting statistic that of the 90 or so GOP who voted for TARP, 41 are gone, which is a huge turnover in the ‘98% of incumbents are re-elected’ House.
General Stuck
Thankfully, Bush’s Brain has now weighed in to give us the true facts of all this, and surprisingly blames Obama for it all.
This made me laugh out loud. Sometimes the bullshit gets deep enough you can kayak it, like a wild river to hell.
joes527
Unless something very strange happens in 2012, Obama gets a second term, we lose the Senate and don’t take back the House.
What part of this is seriously in question?
jayjaybear
Kindness (@40): More power to him, as long as he’s not working to create more suicides, more failed “conversions”, more gay shame, and as long as his wife isn’t working to prevent me and mine from receiving our fair share of rights.
All of which, unfortunately, he and his are doing. So fuck him and the Sybian he rode in on.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
August 1914 didn’t go so well for the financial markets either, but I get what you are saying.
Omnes Omnibus
@ Davis X. Machina: Oh, I agree that they would want more. But it can be done with that small a number. Those GOPers who vote for it would get taken care of by Wall street if they lose their seats. OTOH, I, personally, wouldn’t mind watching the GOP self-immolate over this as long as the US doesn’t default as a consequence. A clean bill and a GOP Civil War would be win-win in my eyes.
catclub
Stuck @ 78 Yes, Just replace Obama with Bush in the first sentence and it is still true.
Rove == Projection
OzoneR
So essentially after two years of dysfunctional divided government, America votes for…more dysfunction.
joes527
Omnes Omnibus
How does the clean bill get to the floor?
Chris
The GOP may have driven itself off the cliff during the Bush years, but that hasn’t translated to a shift of confidence in our favor or, for the moment, destroyed their ideology’s appeal. Looking at Gallup polls and the like, I still see people believing that tax cuts are the way out of this, that spending cuts are preferable to tax hikes to curb the deficit, that the unions and minorities caused the financial crisis, etc.
Optimistically, this is the early 1970s in reverse. The ruling party (Dems back then, Repubs today) are imploding, they just got a mother of all electoral ass-kickings and the public’s faith in them is seriously damaged. But that hasn’t yet translated into a shift of confidence towards the other party, or ended the underlying assumptions in their governance (Nixon’s entire presidency was controversial, it ended in disgrace, and it did nothing to change the Keynesian status quo – the real seismic shift wouldn’t come until 1980. It remains to be seen whether there will, in the end, be a similar shift towards us).
Han's Solo
The ironic thing is that there is a very simple solution: Repeal the debt ceiling all together. It is clearly unconstitutional and Teabaggers pretend to care about the constitution.
It’ll never happen. Still, it may be more palatable to the rubes of the right then raising the debt limit. And they are so fucking dense they may actually believe it when the Teatard Congresscritters say, “Not only did I NOT raise the debt ceiling, I killed the debt ceiling!”
If they are dumb enough to think tax cuts increase revenue they are dumb enough to believe anything.
Yevgraf
I’ve often wondered if Tsarist Duma members and Tsarist capitalists ran into each other in the streets of Petrograd in 1919 while fighting feral cats for scraps and saying “yeah, I think it was a great idea that we drew our lines in the sand and refused wage increases, bureaucratic overhaul and land reforms. This is much better.”
General Stuck
Nothing is for certain this far out, especially in the volatile political climate we are in, that promises to get more so that as time goes on. I would say your prediction has merit, but musing it is out of the question, should also be out of the question. Given our wild swings the past three elections of ‘wave” like results for one side or the other, another one seems more likely than not. And I agree that as of now, dems and Obama are doing it right, and the wingnuts exposed for the irresponsible clowns they are. 2010 taught me to not take anything to the bank these days.
Besides, weren’t you just smart assing that claims of GOP death and demise were premature?
Omnes Omnibus
@ joe527:
While I was a government major in undergrad, I concentrated on international politics. IOW I am not sure of the exact parliamentary mechanism that would be used, but I presume that a Speaker can find a way to get such a bill to the floor. I also presume that Boehner, even if he votes against the bill, would get it there since he is an old fashioned, corrupt pol not a Tea Person.
ETA: I recognize that my presumptions are subject to refutation. I, however, do believe that there are enough not sane but sufficiently money oriented GOPers to get this done.
4tehlulz
@Yevgraf: I’m sure their ideological purity filled their stomachs and warmed their bodies well enough to get by.
Dennis SGMM
@joes527
Some here never enjoyed “Schoolhouse Rock.”
4tehlulz
@Omnes Omnibus: Doesn’t the Majority Leader also have a role in scheduling the vote?
Which means Eric Cantor has to sign on. We are screwed.
Han's Solo
Per TPM just now:
And this morning on Mourning Joe (misspelling intentional) Claire McCaskill said:
Stefan
Y’know…has anyone been talking about other fallout from a default? Like the dollar crashing? And how about two other issues: 1. Will the dollar still be the world’s primary reserve currency? 2. Will oil still continue to be priced in dollars?
Here’s a consequence that no one has really discussed yet: US Treasury debt is rated AAA, therefore highest quality and essentially zero-risk. As such it is used as a benchmark for many aspects of the world’s financial systems, including:
•pricing and quotes in U.S. and international bond markets;
•global bond indexes used by portfolio managers;
•hedging fixed-income positions in U.S. and international markets;
•collateral for domestic and international financial transactions;
•liquidity management by private sector, especially banks;
•foreign exchange reserves held by other governments;
•monetary intervention by the Federal Reserve; and
•domestic and international cash-equivalents.
Both by law and by contract, many of the world’s major financial and governmental systems have tied their positions to the stability of Treasury debt. If that debt was downgraded, it could cause a catastrophic global financial default as one institution after another was forced to detach itself from its Treasury holdings.
Yevgraf
@4tehlulz
Of that, I’m certain. Also, 1790s French nobility, courtiers and financiers unfortunately left behind in Paris could happily be secure in their fealty to doctrine as they were carted to the Place de Concorde, despite what that evil common rabble was saying along the path…
DBrown
Yevgraf:
I’d think since most fled to Paris with their stolen loot and watched as tens of millions of Russians died fron stravation, they were very fat and happy in 1919 as thugs today expect to be even if we fall -these bastards don’t pay for their action, only helpless people do all the paying (as in suffering/dying.)
Omnes Omnibus
@ 4tehlulz:
I think he could find a horse’s head in his bed. I am sure he will be told that he can say what he wants and vote how he wants, but, if he doesn’t allow a vote, he will be crushed like a grape.
60th Street
LMAO! I’m surprised it took her more than 24 hours to punch this out…what was all that apoplexy about insulting the base…oh right!
Who snapped, again?
Dennis SGMM
@Omnes Omnibus
Boehner is likely to be frantically taking the temperature of his caucus. He will do whatever keeps him as Speaker no matter what the other consequences.
Zifnab
@catclub:
That’s contingent on a deal being cut. If the Republicans cut a deal to raise taxes on the rich, and this deal basically cements existing Bush tax policy minus revenue from the rich, then I’m sure you’re right.
But if the Republicans refuse to pass anything except a full indefinite extension of the Bush Cuts, Obama won’t sign it. And I haven’t seen much middle ground between what the GOP will authorize and what Obama won’t veto.
If he vetoes another extension, all the cuts go up in smoke. It’ll be back to the drawing board, with a GOP that refuses to budge on anything.
Martin
@Stefan:
Don’t forget, all state and local bonds are tied to the federal rating, in that, IIRC, they cannot be rated higher than the federal rating since the feds have always been viewed as backing the munis. That would make all state and local debt more expensive and toss cities and states into further economic chaos.
I don’t see how a downgrade doesn’t make the accumulated cost of borrowing money in this country go up at every level. Let the debt death spiral begin.
celticdragonchick
Yes. It also helped that Tip O’Neill and Reagan were personal friends and that ideological loons had not gotten a choke hold on the GOP. Everybody did business over martinis or beer at The Capitol Lounge, The Monocle or The Palm.
General Stuck
Chris
Democrats are always ‘the other party’ to a majority of white voters, who remain the majority of voters in this country. They have only turned to dems as a reflex to republican failure. The GOP is a collage of very disparate groups with natural deep chasms of mistrust and often competing interests, that mostly only come together with a more lengthy period of being out of power, and a leader comes along that they all can rally around for their own interests.
I don’t think we are in such a situation, yet, where they put down their differences and come together for winning a presnit election. The debt ceiling issue has put that inherent conflict on full display, and it will only get more conflicting as the stresses and fervor of the election gets near. And they have nothing remotely resembling a congealing leader to personify their top down sensibilities to be led.
Dems just hang around. The ugly, but competent sister with a heart of gold, that gets chosen because all the pretty republican girls break everything they touch.
Stefan
As an example of my post above, let’s assume Bank A and Bank B do a deal, and as part of the contract Bank B agrees to put up $100mm collateral rated AAA. So they put up $100mm in US Treasuries. All fine.
But now there’s a default, and that collateral is no longer AAA. So they have to dump the Treasuries and then find a substitute. Chaos and confusion ensue for months as the banks and their law firms try to straighten this out.
Now multiply this situation by, say, ten million and you get some sense of what would happen.
joes527
Dennis SGMM
I would have sworn I’d seen all of them. I guess I missed the “Republicans are obstructionist shits who actively want to destroy the country” episode.
Does Jack Sheldon sing in that one?
Zifnab
@Dennis SGMM:
He won’t keep the gavel past 2012. We’ll see another purge of moderate Republicans. Whether they’re replaced by even more extreme Teahadists or moderate Democrats remains to be seen. But I simply don’t see how Boehner will survive.
ppcli
Not original — it’s copied from CapeClod, commenter at Wonkette. But worth spreading around:
Fun Facts:
Here’s how many Republican Senators voted to raise the debt ceiling each time it came up for a vote since 1997.
1997: 55
2002: 31
2003: 50
2004: 50
2006: 51
2007: 26
2008: 34
2008: 33
Then Obama was elected.
2009: 2
2009: 1
2010: 0
Another fun fact: The ’03 vote was on the SAME day the senate voted for Bush’s $350 billion tax cut.
Han's Solo
@60th Street: Hamsher has to be one of the biggest morons in punditry, and I’m including the chuckle heads from “Fox and Friends.”
Poopyman
Speaking of that AAA rating,
More at the link.
I don’t know why Moody’s is credible after 2008, but here we are.
And this indicates that they could lower the rating well in advance of August 3. Like, real soon now.
catclub
Stefan @ 106 Sounds like the ratings agencies will make a bloody fortune during the chaos period.
The might be strung up after it, though. Here’s hoping.
Culture of Truth
Can’t make heads or tails of this – I must be one of those DMF ardent supporters
Nutella
“We shouldn’t have said that if we didn’t mean it.”
And they shouldn’t have passed the damn budget if they had no intention of funding the damn budget. The entire budget process was done in bad faith.
They’re trying to do it again with McConnell’s stupid plan, too. They want to make decisions about spending and pass them into law and then just pretend they haven’t done it, like every day is a chance to start from a blank slate.
Shameless hypocrites. Hardly any one points out that even having a discussion about not passing the debt limit proves they’re liars and grossly incompetent legislators.
Mike in NC
He must have a guaranteed sweet gig lined up as a K Street lobbyist, because the wingnuts in his state are going to be calling for his scalp today.
Citizen_X
60th Street @ 100: English, motherfucker: does she speak it? I couldn’t make heads or tails out of that crap, either.
Doesn’t she mean “He wouldn’t be accepting it?”
TWEET! Penalty; Pronoun Chaos. Five yards, and repeat attempt at writing!
CalD
Lindsey been nipping at the maverick juice again? Not to worry the effects always seem to wear off pretty quickly.
Zifnab
@Nutella:
All praise the Memory Hole, blessed be its name.
Rick Taylor
All this time I’ve been thinking that Republicans must really be prepared to sink the economy, because they were leaving themselves no way to back down if Democrats didn’t completely cave.
Han's Solo
@Citizen_X: Oh come on now Citizen, Hamsher is just trying to make a point.
Her point? That she is a fucking moron.
Bob Natas
This statement was made very early in this thread, but it should be repeated:
I think I might have seen the same program last night. While I still believe that it is much, much more likely that all of this will be worked out by the weekend, I’ve got to say my faith in our essential corruption was shaken a bit last night.
The guy from “Tea Party Nation” (I think?) was on the “Ed Show.” Ed plays the Jerry Springer to Larry O’s Sally Jesse Raphael in the MSNBC left propaganda triplecast, but last night’s display was shocking. The Tea Party dude appears to really, really want to blow stuff up. He had the eyes of a fanatic, not a swindler.
A lot of the analysis done by Larry O (faithfully parroted by ABL on this site) seems to assume that guys like Cantor are crooked; they know at some level that the whole Tea Party thing is not on the level, and are in it just for the corporate tax breaks. If they know that the default could hurt the guys for whose benefit the US is actually run, they’ll call this off. What if not?
jwb
Han’s Solo: Jane is not stupid. She knows very well that her page hits come from milking left-wing resentment.
Admiral_Komack
Admiral_Komack:
July 14th, 2011 at 10:35 am
Han’s Solo:
July 14th, 2011 at 9:50 am
Question: Can you overdose on schadenfreude?
I wonder how Hamsher’s Firetards are going to turn this into something bad that Obama did.
*Don’t worry, THE RATFUCKER & her minions will find a way.
*Han’s Solo:
I told you so:
About That McConnell Deal…
By: Jane Hamsher Thursday July 14, 2011 7:30 am
For the record I don’t think it’s a big deal if Obama has to take sole responsibility for raising the debt limit. But he does.
It undermines his intention to run in 2012 as the “fiscally responsible” guy who closed the deficit, and that’s why he is cussing mad. Well, that and the fact that he has to undergo ritual humiliation at the hands of the GOP every 2 months to get what he wants.
The irony is that the Obamabots are so out of touch with who Obama is and what he wants they don’t realize that by cheering for the McConnell deal, and his prowess in making McConnell “blink,” it amounts to twisting the knife for him. It makes it impossible for him to reject the deal the end — which empowers the GOP to hold out.
Cantor offered a temporary extension three times last night, and by both Democratic and GOP accounts, that’s what made Obama snap. He wouldn’t be rejecting it “even if it brings my presidency down,” and taking his case to the American people, if he thought he had scored some big victory.
You gotta feel sorry for the guy. His most ardent supporters are the dumbest motherfuckers in the world, and they don’t realize he thinks they are digging his political grave.
fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2011/07/14/about-that-mcconnell-deal/
Dennis SGMM
@Zifnab
You’re right; Boehner’s sell-by date has already been written. Of the two options that you outlined, I’m inclined to believe that he’ll be replaced by someone acceptable to the Teahadists. Their trajectory has only reached lunacy on its way to gibbering idiocy and speaking in tongues.
Fasten your seatbelts.
General Stuck
Jane sounds bitter, and clinging to her hatchet.
Georgia Pig
E-harmony would identify Jane and Eric Cantor as a match.
60th Street
@Han’s Solo
Well, it ain’t gonna get any prettier…
She’s made sure FDL has become an echo chamber worthy of a PJMedia circle jerk, despite the continued good work of some there, namely DDay. Her membership drive was a monumental embarrassment, She penned a GBCW for the Democratic party over at CommonDreams, Marcy Wheeler’s tiptoeing out the door…
I’d say we’re pretty much looking at a white-hot neutron star of Marquis de Sade-styled writing on the wall in bloody feces imploding FAIL at this point…
Hide the kids…
eemom
@ 60th Street
meh, she’ll find a way to land on her feet. Her kind always does.
gene108
The right-wingers in S.C. have wanted Graham gone for some time now. They just haven’t managed to pull of the “coup” yet.
Whenever he’s up for re-election, look for a primary opponent to take him down. This is of course assuming S.C. does not have open primaries. An open primary, with indies voting may save him.
Look for DeMint to be the moderate voice in the S.C. Senate delegation, if Graham loses a primary challenge.
les
@Stefan:
Another point–treasuries are the benchmark for adjustable mortgages and commercial loans of all kinds; many commercial loans adjust monthly. So, a jump in rates looks to move another huge chunk of $$ to banks and the financial industry, the ultimate non-job creating chunk of the economy.
Judas Escargot
@joes527:
The GOP (as currently constructed– the Nixonian/Reaganite one of the past 30-40 years) “died” rhetorically the other night, when Boehner walked away from a $4T deal.
What we’re discussing now is whether or not they’re crazy enough to take the rest of us down with them.
IMO (still), Obama cannot cave or blink at this point, because the GOP will just pull this stunt again and again and again. So, the Keyzer Soze option it has to be.
If it all burns, it’s Boehner and Cantor who’ll get the blame (observe GOP Senators like Graham and McConnell already distancing themselves from the crazies just in case).
And I don’t believe that the “Obama Walked” story will get much traction outside of wingnut circles, though they’ll try. The “this is bullshit, do not fuck with me, I’m out of here” response resonates with normal people.
ETA: Senate crafting a plan behind the scenes. Dems applying pressure at the weakest link.
The Moar You Know
I have read enough of Hamsher’s ravings to realize one thing for certain.
The woman does not like black people. Period.
eemom
@ Moar
imo, it’s more that black people are not useful to her than a conventional sort of bigotry.
Too bad it’s not possible to know the racial breakdown of the sycophants who continue to frequent her blog. I’m guessing the AA percentage is somewhere around Aryan Nation levels.
Han's Solo
@60th Street:
Nicely done!
Joey Maloney
MY EYES!!!
artem1s
@Zifnab:
make that 100% and you got it right. Because the real goal all along is to unseat this President no matter what it costs. McConnell was on NPR this morning bemoaning the fact that their current strategy of obfuscation on the debt was probably going to secure Obama a second term. That statement alone tells the whole story. They let Limbaugh frame the battle from the beginning. ANYTHING TO MAKE OBAMA FAIL. If he goes down with the ship, so be it. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!
Bruce S
Jane Hamsher has absolutely nothing to do with anything that actually needs to be discussed about the terms Obama was offering the GOP vs. their demonstrable insanity in not taking his – at best – center-right proposal to shrink Medicare eligibility and the SS cost-of-living index. If these things were never proposed in the Grand Bargain and folks like
FireDogLakeEzra Klein don’t know what they’re talking about, Jay Carney – at the least – should make that crystal clear. There are serious issues here – most notably whether it made sense to include shrinking Medicare eligibility and changing the SS cost-of-living formula in some “Grand Bargain” proposed by a Democratic President.If it makes people feel good to focus on maligning Jane Hamsher in order to avoid any real questions about Obama’s bargaining terms (his strategy, in itself, appears very skillful and I’ll be the first to say he’s ten time smarter and cooler than I am) or if it is “above criticism” to vocally oppose certain of the outlines of his “Grand Bargain” – as some of the Inverted Hamsher One-Noters seem to suggest – then fine. But it’s a weak and rather silly way of viewing this entire episode IMHO.
Just as it’s not a “win” to point to how inept and insanely ideological the GOP is. The truth is that the entire debt ceiling discussion took place on their turf – both because of the loss of Congress and the fact that the Democrats, and certainly the White House, have not been effective in making it clear that we are not facing a “spending crisis” but a revenue crisis. That’s the totality of the problem at least for the next ten years. Without the tax cuts and the decline in revenues due to massive unemployment, this “crisis” is non-existent. And certainly can’t be solved in the context of the question of raising debt ceiling – when the spending is mandated and “debt-ceiling” is a technical issue of acknowledging what we’ve already committed to or are being subjected to because of a bad economy.
I guess when you’ve been called a “firebagger” or “keyboard kommando” allegedly firing away at the “black president with a muslim sounding name” in these threads simply for not obediently “choosing teams” but rather raising (unanswered) questions about the appropriateness of what’s apparently been put on the table in this round of White House brinksmanship, the Hamsher-bashing starts to lose some of its cogency or relevance and seems like a way of evading any serious analysis of the terms that have been offered by Obama in this debt ceiling show-down. I’m not really interested in Hamsher – who I’ve long found sort of creepy – nor am I interested in “horse race” analysis a la Chuck Todd, Halperin, et. al. I’m more concerned that some core Democratic values have been put into play for short-term political gain.
I’m not “freaked out” about the “leftward” end of the agenda, but about a strong Democratic defense of the basic stuff that actually matters to the “average” voter. That they’re confused when polled about the debt ceiling isn’t surprising. The fact is, once you start to suggest tampering with Medicare eligibility and SS cost-of-living, a core distinction between the GOPers and Dems becomes blurred into non-existence. And I’m not talking “ideals” or “progressives” – I’m talking about winning elections across the country.
Cain
@Davis X. Machina:
And hello DeMint! Hahaha.. that’s going to be even worse.. Boehner is going to be crying the whole time. He’s probably crying right now.
Davis X. Machina
@les: Locked my variable HELOC last night. I can always pay to have the lock come off if nothing happens.
Just Some Fuckhead
Yer new here, right? These idiots can work Jane Hamsher into a conversation about anything.
Cain
@Just Some Fuckhead:
I made a plum tart yesterday (those on my g+ would have seen it) I thought of Jane Hamster after I finished eating a piece of tart.
OzoneR
Except she tries to occupy the mantle of progressive activist when all she is a racist liar who is in all likelihood trying to enrage as many people as she can so her clients will buy more ads, lining her pockets. She’s using the progressive movement to make herself rich. She doesn’t care about entitlements or jobs or any progressive idea, if she did, she wouldn’t be making ads for BP.
She’s a cancer in an already unwell progressive movement and needs to be eradicated.
Just Some Fuckhead
See?
Bruce S
I’m not sure it’s helpful or appropriate – whatever one feels about her tactics, history POV or antics – to call Jane Hamsher a “cancer.” The first time I ever heard of Jane Hamsher on the blogosphere, it was in the context of her struggling with breast cancer while following (obsessing over?) the Libby trial.
Also “needs to be eradicated” strikes me as a level of hysteria that isn’t useful – or, frankly, even respectable.
The more I read some of this strange stuff, the clearer it becomes who the “emos” are.
Bruce S
Incidentally. I hate the term “Progressive.”
I’m a proud liberal in the New Deal tradition. That’s it. I don’t identify with the “progressivism” of a Woodrow Wilson or TR but with the liberalism of FDR and LBJ (domestic.) May seem like hair-splitting, but it’s not. The implications of the original “Progressive” movement have essentially and historically been an agenda of well-intentioned elites. The New Deal-era and the liberal domestic policies of LBJ were much more intrinsically inter-twined with social movements among the grass-roots (although obviously well-intentioned elites also played a key role.) Just saying.
I think “Progressive” is a BS term. Also, the last self-identified “Progressive” political entity I’m aware of was a splinter from the mainstream Democrats largely led by a then-influential-among-certain-liberals CPUSA. Not exactly what the doctor ordered…
I don’t get how that P-word skirts any dicey issues regarding perceptions of Democratic liberalism. Also, the unalloyed notion of “Progress” as an inherent good for the average folk – or the planet, for that matter – is fraught with more baggage than traditional Democratic “liberalism” IMHO.
Tangent – but I couldn’t help myself.
OzoneR
Cancer may be a bad way of phrasing it, but my point still stands. I don’t know how any of you can stand having this woman, who profits off of your enemies, carrying your mantle, except perhaps because none of you are serious yourself.
jayjaybear
Joey Maloney:
It’s worse than that…I was referring to Marcus Bachmann, not Lindsay Graham…
OzoneR
We can’t even agree on a term to name the movement that Obama is supposed to be leading.
Chyron HR
Oh, people just say uncivil things like that because they are, quote, “the dumbest motherfuckers in the world”, unquote.
Bruce S
It’s called the Democratic Party…
Liberals make up only a part of it. I have no illusions – and never did – that Obama as President could lead a “movement.”
President’s never lead movements. Movements help Presidents get shit done, if they’re willing. Right now the only movement pushing Obama with any potency is the Tea Party movement, which is why he’s dealing from a corner on this debt ceiling bullshit – however skillful a player he might prove to be.
OzoneR
Well we have that in common.
Bruce S
“I don’t know how any of you can stand having this woman, who profits off of your enemies, carrying your mantle, except perhaps because none of you are serious yourself.”
Hamsher only carries MY mantle in the clouded minds of folks such as yourself. This obsession is bullshit.
And no, just because Hamsher calls you a motherfucker doesn’t justify “cancer” or “eradicate her” in response. I have no brief for her and pretty much ignore that end of the blogosphere. But the hysterics around her are bizarre IMHO. Just because Hamsher is one more of those “dumbest motherfuckers in the world” (partly because that faction wanted John Edwards as the candidate in ’08 pretty uniformly) doesn’t mean that dipshit attacks on her that have zero actual rational argument but are steeped in eliminationist language are something I find edifying or useful.
OzoneR
then ignore it. Hypocrites are my biggest pet peeve, and she’s one of the biggest ones I’ve ever seen. I hate frauds and I’m going to call them out, bluntly and strongly. She’s a fraud and whatever little power she has is wasted at a time when we need real people fighting, not frauds looking to make a buck.
If she’s so irrelevant to you, why are you defending her?
Bruce S
I haven’t defended Hamsher. YOu have doubled-down on the point I made in my original comment on Hamsher, because you ignored everything I said except “Hamsher.”
You’re digging a deeper “Hamsher” hole and ignoring the substance of my comment.
Okay – I’ve got real stuff to do.
Fire away and have fun. I have spent too much of my morning on the internets…
OzoneR
What point, that we need be PC when talking about how awful people are? I got it, calling someone a cancer who had cancer is wrong.
I’ll stick to fly-invested piece of shit.
Bruce S
No – my point in the original comment about Hamsher’s irrelevance to the more significant issues surrounding Obama’s “Grand Bargain” proposal as reported. That’s what you quoted from when you responded with the “cancer” comment.
You’ve ignored the substance of that one. And I’m not particularly “PC” but I do have some limits. I’ll call anyone pretty much anything if I think they’re a fucking moron, but I do have a few limits like illness. But this “really really” is the last response I can make. I’ve got shit to do.
Nutella
@Bruce S:
1000x yes to this. I am appalled that Obama has given away his best political advantage: Being the one who protects Social Security and Medicare from the Republicans who want to take it away from hardworking Americans. It’s shocking enough to think it’s a good idea practically speaking, but the political damage will be huge.
Bob Natas
That’s silly. Maybe more gently, I don’t know how anyone with that particular peeve can stand to watch modern day mass democracy. Almost no statement anyone ever makes is made in good faith. Those that tend to make straightforward, principled statements tend to be guys like Sanders and Ron Paul, and all the serious people hate those guys.
Imagine would American politics would look like if everyone was as fanatical as a Bachmann. Hypocrisy is the gasoline that the car of state uses to motor down the road of progress. Americans love swindlers; you either accept the implications of this for our politics and learn to laugh, or you write rants like John Cole does. Either way, we would probably be better off if it was certain that Cantor was a fraud, rather than a true believer.
Just Some Fuckhead
Bruce S., you seem like a sincere guy, trying to ignore the rabble-rousers and have a good faith conversation. But you aren’t going to do that with Nick/OzoneR. He’s just here pushing the propaganda, doing his job. He has a half dozen nicknames he uses, even going so far as to have them agree with each other, compliment his other nicks and attack as a group whomever he is talking to.
There’d be no way for you to know this, of course, which is why I’m telling ya.
4jkb4ia
John, he has realized it in the sense that since last year he has been offering himself as the reasonable compromise guy and the teabaggers have not liked it one bit. Being so far behind at EW’s has helped because Rahm still thinks he can do a deal with Graham over Gitmo in this far-past version of our universe.
OzoneR
I hate our democracy, I hate everything about it, but it’s the government we’re forced to deal with.
Elizabelle
I wonder if Graham will retire from the Senate, because he will get successfully primaried by a wingnut OR — if he might run again as an independent.
He’s as good a Republican as South Carolina Democrats are going to get.
Alternatively, maybe he will get a good job or prime ambassadorship from President Obama?