Here’s Dan Savage’s response to the pearl clutching about Marcus Bachmann:
Gay people who point out how fruity Bachmann is aren’t saying there’s something wrong with being fruity, or gay, or with guys who look, speak, walk, or dance the way Bachmann does. A lot of us look, speak, walk, and dance that way. And we don’t think there’s anything wrong with us for looking, speaking, walking, or dancing that way—I’ve never met a gay man who objected to Modern Family‘s Cam. And we certainly don’t think there’s anything wrong with being gay. But Marcus Bachmann sure does. He thinks there’s a whole lot wrong with being gay. When we point out that this same Marcus Bachmann acts like a huge homo—like a messy, married, dishonest, closeted version Cam—we’re hoisting that pansy on his own hateful petard.
Marcus Bachmann is attacking us and we’re we’re claiming him. We’re embracing him, we’re saying that we recognize ourselves in him, and that turns the stigma Marcus Bachmann promotes back on Marcus Bachmann.
AAA Bonds
I think Savage just understands that given recent Republican history, this line of attack will work.
And more power to him.
BGinCHI
I assume there will be an “It gets better…” video for Bachmann.
eric
allow me to be the first hetero to say — “he’s all yours.”
kd bart
Marcus Bachmann is Cam
Michelle Bachmann is Fizbo.
Rorgg
I made a FB comment with a not-too-subtle poke in that direction a couple week ago, and where’d the reaction, all positive, come from?
My gay friends.
dpcap
The best argument I heard recently against calling him gay is that it is a lie based on stereotype. Until we have Wikipedia quality proof that he is in fact gay, we are no better than the Fox News bobbleheads who lie each and every day about all sorts of liberal stereotypes.
Sizequeen
That being said, no one knows if B-Dawg is even gay. It’s one thing to make fun of a known closet-case who mentally damages gay people with bullshit pray the gay away therapy. It’s another to use a gay stereotype to make fun of a an asshole, who might be straight.
(I want men to be whatever they are— gay and butch, straight and queeny and everything in between. The stuff people are saying about MB just reinforces our ideas about how straight men are supposed to act, talk, walk, etc. If there wasn’t such a narrow view of how straight men are supposed to act, I think men in general would be freer and happier.)
Anyway, even if he is attracted to men, he may not see gayness as an identity that applies to him. He might be a happily married, repressed closet case who only sleeps with his wife and identifies as straight. To me, this is sad, but also perfectly legitimate.
If they catch the dude tapping his foot in a airport or in a hotel with a wetsuit, a dildo, and a gay prostitute, then I’ll point and laugh at his sheer hypocrisy, but so far, we have no proof that MB is a hypocrite.
slag
@dpcap:
This would be true if we thought there was anything wrong with gay people or with effeminate men. But we don’t. Fauxies think there’s something wrong with being liberal. That’s the distinction.
Han's Big Snark Solo
I get that there is nothing “OK” about outing a closeted gay person. I really do. But Marcus Bachman is different.
1) He, and his beliefs and his job, proactively injure gay people and further the idea that being gay is bad/wrong/something to be ashamed of.
2) His wife’s comments on teh gays, as well as they hateful legislation she pushes, are toxic to everyone gay and straight alike.
3) And this is the big one… Who the fuck does he think he is kidding? You’d have to be crazy and or stupid not to realize Marcus Bachman is gay. Which explains why his wife hasn’t caught on.
Marcus Bachman outs himself constantly. Are we really not supposed to notice?
PS – Jon Stewart and Jerry Seinfeld were so unbelievably funny on this… If you haven’t seen it you should.
JenJen
Was just reading the same thing and hoped it would get front-paged.
Holy mackerel, how I love me some Dan Savage. Anyone see his appearance on Bill Maher’s “Real Time” over the weekend? Hysterical. I thought the best part was when he cleaned up Mark Cuban’s mess for him, but then he launched into a howling back-and-forth with the awesome Marc Maron involving Michele Bachmann and Rick Santorum. Must be seen to be believed; hope it’s online somewhere for those without HBO.
dpcap
Yes Slag, but there still is no proof that his is in fact closeted. Until the story comes out that he in fact likes to have his clients recite Leviticus while his genitals are stuffed in their mouths, it’s wrong to slander him.
Not to mention on a national stage such tactics are horribly stupid.
They make the people using them look sleazy and desperate. The legitimize the target of the claims and allow them to play the victim. They feed perfectly into the right wing narrative about gays and the left.
Loneoak
We might not have proof that he fucks men, but we have clear proof he is a hypocrite. Reparative therapy is not just about ‘don’t fuck men,’ it’s about enforcing a rigidly defined masculinity. If you want men to be whatever type of man they wish to be, then you have every reason to call MB a flaming hypocrite for mentally torturing other men about their failures to fit a stereotype that he himself does not live up to.
joes527
Sizequeen
OF COURSE he is gay.*
*Everything I know about gayness I learned watching reruns of Will and Grace.
Han's Big Snark Solo
@Sizequeen:
Wow. Seriously?
As Bill Maher said, “You don’t even need gaydar in this case, any of your two normal senses will work.”
RalfW
It’s been a running joke for about 6 years here in the T.C. (since about when Michele hid in the bushes) that Marcusssss might be a kloset kween.
But I don’t give a shit about that, other than it still gets a laugh out of all my gay friends when I say Marcusssss. I even call the Marcus Family Theater chain in Oakdale the Marcusssss theater. (Yes it’s childish, yes I’m 45 and know better, yes anyone who doesn’t act like a moronic kid sometimes has lost a part of themselves).
No, what I do give a crap about is that Mr. Michele campaigns for his wife for preznit, says we homos are barbarians, and runs a ‘clinic’ that dispenses crackpot counseling. Is he a self-hating fag or an other-hating hetero? Don’t care about the prefix. I care about the hating.
JGabriel
Well, if we default on the debt, at least nothing else can go wrong, right?
Reuters:
[Buries head in hands]
.
RalfW
Ohfercrissakes. Moderation in all things is great, except blogs.
Roger Moore
I think the question of whether he’s gay or just an effeminate straight is really secondary. The things he’s saying are hateful and wrong no matter who says them. Attacking the source may be fun, but it’s more important to attack the message.
Brachiator
Well said, with much more compassion than most in the anti ghey crowd.
On the other hand, I have never understood the logic of protecting people who work to actively hurt gay, and non gay, people and yet live stealthy lives.
Svensker
So why am I getting ads for hot black 30 year old guys on this page? Not that I object, just find it kinda curious.
BGinCHI
OT, but Driftglass just straight fucking brings it today:
http://driftglass.blogspot.com/2011/07/voice-of-empire-ctd_17.html
A taste:
eric
Svensker — that is odd, i am getting ads for closet organizers ;)
Dexter
This is OT but things are getting very interesting for the “Hacking-gate/Murdoch-gate”.
slag
@dpcap: So much absurdity in that comment, it’s hard to know where to start. I guess “slander him” is really where you start to go off the rails. And then it’s all down hill from there.
MazeDancer
Savage mentions that Bachmann may “believe” sexual orientation is a choice, because Bachmann chose straight.
If true, that could actually help PAG (Pray Away the Gay) “believers” support all their falsehoods. Bachmann says yes, he lusted in his heart, but was divinely rescued from sin. Especially after he met the right woman. Michele can turn gay men straight.
Look at me, PAG practices work, Bachmann can say. He’ll be even more a hero. Only problem is if he’s had sex with any male since he married. Especially if one of those possible males was a, uh, massage therapist, with contacts at a tabloid.
There are grifters in the right wing religious con, and there are actual believers who help the cons prosper. Both cons and believers cannot accept any science that short changes their powerhold. Science that sexuality is a spectrum and we’re all born somewhere on it is as suspicious as science showing the reality of man-made climate change.
Strangely, sexual orientation they’ll assert, is man-made. Whole Earth Meltdown is not.
John X.
Remember when Bush showed up at the Olympics, red faced and slurring his words? Remember how anyone who suggested that the shit-faced asshole was either drinking or on serious drugs were called irresponsible?
It’s like this. The guy is very, very gay, but our guardians of propriety insists that we do not say this. Denying this does not make you noble.
It makes you a sap. And while there is a lot of good work out there for professional saps – apply at the Washington Post – it does not make you a saint to pretend to be one in some strained attempt to be “better” than your opponents.
fasteddie9318
Flying Fucking Spaghetti Monster. Is there literally nothing that people on the left can do to attack those who regularly attack them without generating some hysterical bullshit fainting couch routine from the bleachers? You want to goddamn faint about something? Faint about Marcus Bachmann taking federal fucking money to bully gay men into self-loathing repression using superstitious vomit. Get hysterical about that, for fuck’s sake. Stop schoolmarming the people on the good side, for fuck’s sake.
scav
between the closets and the sheer magnificent fun that coalition govts turn out to be I may simply melt into a puddle of pleasure, oh help. and without ads. (Late breaking — can do without dead people.shit.)
ETA: and as a brief aside to the Lie Your Way to God’s Favor Crowd? Go ahead, place all your chips on that. It’s so dignified and reverent toward you supposed omnicient one.
Loneoak
I get the objection to outing/mocking Bachmann for stereotypically gay affect. I spent some time thinking about it before engaging with it on FB. As a general principle, I support everyone being able to choose gender, affect, and forms of relationships that work for them.
So let’s assume one of the following and see how MB comes out of it:
1) MB is homosexually oriented, but came to an agreement with himself and Michele that he would pass as straight and have a family with her.
2) MB is straight, but has a stereotypically gay affect.
3) MB is a closeted homosexual, has sex with other men, but attempts to pass as straight and deceives Michele.
In all of those cases, their combined political and moral stances toward homosexuality are of the rankest hypocrisy. I can’t see anyway to be generous toward him, even if we might drawn the line at mocking his affect. But I don’t think Savage or any of us are really mocking his affect, because I have plenty of beloved friends who have similar affect (and they all say he is clearly gay), we are mocking his hypocrisy. Assuming otherwise is concern trolling.
Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen
I forget who here said it, but to paraphrase, when homophobia = closet case, the homophobes will StFu.
While I like the idea of homophobes exchanging suspicious glances or even attacking each other, I still think attacking his “work” is better and more straight forward.
I mean, we have One L. Bachmann telling us that she became a lawyer because he told her to and wives should obey their husbands. If that is true (and why would I doubt ol’ crazy eyes?) he’d be the de facto PotUS.
MazeDancer
@Dexter:
Hoare found dead??!! Poor guy. But too bizarre even for the movie version.
Here’s the Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jul/18/news-of-the-world-sean-hoare
Han's Big Snark Solo
I’d say that you would have to shift into the reality-free world Republicans live in not to know. And slander? Calling into question someone’s sexual preference is slander?
But all that is beside the point. Indeed, I don’t think any politician on the left should make a big deal out of this. Marcus Bachman should be treated as any other political spouse as far as lefty politicians are concerned.
Comedians, however, should strap on their assless chaps and ride Marcus Bachman like a float at a pride parade.
RalfW
Dexter @23 (and continuing to be OT) I needed a laugh this crappy day, and the Guardian delivered via Rebekah’s lawyer:
“The Metropolitan police put no allegations to Rebekah Brooks during nine hours of interviews, her solicitor said on Monday, as he described the decision to arrest her as causing ‘enormous reputational damage.‘”
More’s the pity.
Svensker
@ fasteddie
You have an elegant turn of phrase. What you say is pretty much it.
RalfW
Not as OT, remind me why anyone cares about Marcus’s reputational damage?
I know some people think preznitial candidate spouses should be off limits. But this dink went on the radio all on his own and said awful things about us gays ppl. He became a public figure on this issue of his own accord.
If he was attacked for something not in the public record, i could maybe care.
Woodrowfan
a couple of old college buddies who are gay are gleeful making fun of Bachmann.
Superking
This is kind of bullshit, though. Savage is basically saying, “Marcus Bachmann is a big ol’ fag. Not that there’s anything wrong with that!” It’s a Seinfeld cop out. Is the guy gay? How the hell should I know? May be he is, and if so, let’s have the scandal when it happens. But lefties are being a little hypocritical if we’re making fun of him while telling others not to make fun of gay kids or even straight kids who seem effeminate. Savage claims that he is trying to expose hypocrisy, but that is only true if Marcus Bachmann is in fact gay. If he’s not, then Savage is just beating up on a guy for no reason.
It’s already the case that most people in this country find Bachmann’s anti-gay hysteria to be rephrensible. Most people know you can’t pray the gay away. Why not just use that instead?
Forgive me for clutching pearls.
Brachiator
What? This is crazy.
Jay in Oregon
Mazedancer @25:
No. HELL no.
If anything, she’d make some guys consider batting for the other team…
(I know that you’re not the one saying that, but still… No.)
JGabriel
Dexter:
Soon-to-be-released Statement from PR Flack:
It doesn’t even matter if NI was involved in Hoare’s death or not. The uncertainty works for them either way.
Which, in itself, tells you how low their reputation stands.
.
fasteddie9318
OMIGAD THEY ARE DESTROYING THE CAUSE OF GAY RIGHTS THEY SHOULD JUST SHUT UP AND LET DR. BACHMANN KEEP MENTALLY SCARRING GAY MEN!!!!
scav
Brachiator: and now we enter a quick stage of it doesn’t matter WTF the truth is: the opitics have gone dark. Fucking butterfly flapped. Still not contained.
Han's Big Snark Solo
This is pure speculation, but what do you want to bet that if Michelle Bachman lasts long enough her foster children start coming forward? I highly doubt anyone can live with the Bachman’s for any amount of time without coming away from the experience with some interesting stories.
Most likely she self destructs long before then.
Roger Moore
@MazeDancer:
I’m not even sure if that would be enough to sink him. He just has to say that he’s a sinner fighting against temptation and Satan threw a bigger obstacle in his path than he could handle. What really matters is that he’s fighting the good fight against sin and knows how to act contrite. Christians are all about forgiveness, at least for members of the tribe.
Yutsano
@Han’s Big Snark Solo: Well there is her lesbian step-sister. So that slow drip may indeed be starting.
Brad
The problem with Savage is that he’s a lousy scandalmonger. These things don’t have any legs unless someone comes up with Monica Lewinsky, Spitzer’s hooker, Craig’s arrest, or somesuch. He’s contenting himself with having a good laugh–just look at that fairy!–rather than actually bringing the guy down.
Nutella
@Brad:
I dunno. He did pretty well with santorum.
JenJen
@fasteddie9318 #27:
Thank you.
Joel
@dpcap
Spare me, Mother Theresa.
RalfW
The one way all this fails is in recognizing another possibility. If Haggart, Wide Stance™, and possibly Marcussss are something like Kinsey 3s or4s.
For a gay-leaning bi person, praying away the gay may actually “work.” I’m probably a 5 or 5.5 on a scale of 6, but I had girlfriends all thru college.
I’m much happier now as an out gay man, but I did date one woman after my first boyfriend turned into a creepy stalker, and about 10 years ago I had a serious but unacted on crush on a delightful, smart, attractive, fairly butch straight woman.
If I was Christian rather that UU, and my friend circle was conservative rather than progressive to flaming liberal, I might have tried to make a go if it with that small, small slice of women who I find attractive and who are not themselves lesbians.
Now, I still, as I said up this thread, think Marcus’ ‘treatment’ is bogus crapola. If it was grounded in honoring Kinsey spectrum and helping a person make a conscious choice, fine. But it ain’t. It’s hurtful, brainwashy garbage.
Calouste
A job as what? As a mole for NI?
Any bets on how thick the “John Yates” dossier is that is kept in Murdoch’s secret lair?
JenJen
@dpcap #11: Hold up now… who, exactly, is slandering Marcus Bachmann? I think maybe the best thing here would be to re-read what Dan Savage wrote. Maybe even click on the link and read the entire thing in context.
Ruckus
Loneoak
If you want men to be whatever type of man they wish to be, then you have every reason to call MB a flaming hypocrite for mentally torturing other men about their failures to fit a stereotype that he himself does not live up to.
This is why it is OK to flame this asshole. He is a hypocrite. He is full of shit and he puts his wrongness and stupidity out in front of the world.
Of course he should be mocked.
gocart mozart
Flying Fucking Spaghetti Monster. Is there literally nothing that people on the left can do to attack those who regularly attack them without generating some hysterical bullshit fainting couch routine from the bleachers? You want to goddamn faint about something? Faint about Marcus Bachmann taking federal fucking money to bully gay men into self-loathing repression using superstitious vomit. Get hysterical about that, for fuck’s sake. Stop schoolmarming the people on the good side, for fuck’s sake.
Nemesis
Members of the Team know one thing for sure. They know who is on their Team. Verdict in. Marcus is a Team member. And thats perfectly okay with apparently everyone but Marcus, his crazy eyes wife, her supporters and the entire homophobic gop/bagger community. Other than that, its all good.
300baud
@dpcap:
Hello, time traveler! As part of your adjustment process, I’d like to make you aware that in your future (that is, our present), saying that somebody might be gay is no longer slander.
If anything, him being gay makes him a sympathetic figure. If he’s straight, then he’s a total asshole, profiting by aiding oppression of gay people. If he is gay, then he’s just been thoroughly fucked up by the religious insanity he’s been dunked in.
rikryah
he really does seem gayer than Gay Gayerson.
it’s like Black folk and passing. people think you’re pathetic, but when it gets to the point where you’re in a position to harm and hurt other Black folk, then you need to be exposed.
Tsulagi
That’s funny. Guessing there’s a wetsuit or two along with Marcus in the Bachmann family his and hers closet.
Knew a Bachmann candidacy would be real comedy. Hopefully her husband travels to and appears with her at campaign stops. If a lot of obviously fabulous people show up to loudly claim and embrace Marcus, given her past history, Michele would go completely unglued on the stage. Ballistic crazy.
aimai
There was an excellent long comment in a thread at John Aravois’s from a former committed Christian about coming out at the age of 47. He’s in his seventies now, I think. Before he came out he knew he was gay, but he was celibate. And after having had a long term relationship with another man that relationship ended and he’s celibate again. His point, and this was very beautifully written, is that its impossible for Christian homophobes to insist that they “love the sinner/hate the sin” or imply in any way that they sever the act from the identity because they don’t. Otherwise he wouldn’t have been considered to be sinfully “gay” when he was celibate before he came out, or after. And yet he was considered to be sinning. Even not wanting to be heterosexual or be married to a woman is considered sinful by the hard liners.
Marcus and Michelle belong to a sect that would criminalize homosexual acts, and which attack and dehumanize people for not being heteronormative in appearance or desire. That’s very serious. Since it makes private behavior of public concern–attempting to legislate and criminalize and penalize private behavior neither Marcus nor Michelle has much of a defense against scrutiny of their own private lives. I’m declaring myself to belong to a religion which opposes all forms of marital and sexual disengenousness, false fronts, and religious psychology. Just as Marcus and Michelle want the right to examine the personal behavior and lives of others, I want the right to do the same to them. If they don’t like it they can withdraw their claim to politicize and pathologize the lives of others.
aimai
Ruckus
aimai
Nice.
Nutella
@aimai:
Well put. If the Bachmanns want me to stay out of their bedroom then they can get the hell out of mine.
celticdragonchick
I can’t get excited about anything from Dan Savage. He is a habitually transphobic shithead who blamed prop 8 on the African American community. Fuck him.
Surly Duff
I’m not overly concered about humorists mocking the man; isn’t that what comedians do? I do wonder if focusing on the alleged homosexuality distorts the message that his perspective and his “treatment” is wrong. Will the focus on his potential homosexuality focus the discussion towards, “I shouldn’t consider his message because if he is gay then he is a hypocrite”, versus “I shouldn’t consider his message because it is hateful and dehumanizing”?
I don’t care if he is gay or straight. either way he is a spiteful man with a disgusting and distorted perspective towards his fellow man.
dpcap
Wow, a lot of you don’t seem to know the definition of slander. Let’s review shall we? Miriam Webster says:
Of course since it’s “oral” I think then the correct legal term is libel. ANYWAY. the main thing is not whether it is offensive, but whether it is false.
Until proof appears that Marcus is gay, any claims to the contrary are slander (or libel).
As I said before, by making a big deal about this we’re only confirming what conservatives have always assumed about liberals and the gay community. We need to be better than that. We can’t give them any more ammunition about “those hysterical libruls!”
eyelessgame
I think calling Bachmann gay is a little like calling Obama conservative. It’s mischief to rile their supporters. It works because it’s just plausible enough, on a superficial level, that you can count on at least some erstwhile supporters to go all firebagger to prove their bonafides, if they aren’t very bright or very secure in their convictions.
different church-lady
Wait… “homo” is no longer a slur as long as gays use it against a homophobe?
Could someone please draw up a chart on these things for me? I don’t wanna be making a bunch of mistakes after all the rules are done shifting around.
Trollenschlongen
Dan Savage is mostly awesome.
However, the fact that he hangs out with Andrew Sullivan in his spare time makes me vomit a little in my mouth.
Han's Big Snark Solo
@dpcap:
Not to nitpick, but reread the definition. For it to be slander or libel it needs to be false. I’ve seen no evidence of that. Yes, he’s married with kids, but history shows us that doesn’t mean much.
Indeed, it seems most gay people who hear Marcus or see Marcus say, “Yep, dude’s gay.”
Fuck, Cher was the one that got this started. Marcus Bachman made Cher’s gaydar squeal like a happy piggie.
Also too, for it to be libel it would have to defame his character. The guy is married to Michelle Bachman and is a purveyor of psychological abuse, being called gay should be a compliment to that turd.
“It gets better.” Yes, it does, and if not for self-loathing shit like Marcus Bachman it would get better much sooner.
slag
@dpcap: For the record, saying the same stupid thing twice, using different words, doesn’t make it any less stupid. On the contrary, it makes the person who said the stupid thing twice look twice as stupid as they did the first time.
Peter
Marcus Bachmann is a giant fucking asshole and deserves whatever bile is spilled at him. And pointing out the hypocrisy of him performing ‘treatments’ to rid men of effeminate mannerisms much like his own is most certainly fair game. Indeed, have at it.
But I’m more than a little uncomfortable with prominent figures in the gay community promoting stereotypes about how gay men behave, even if it’s for a good cause. Regardless of who it’s aimed at. There’s a pretty firm line between ‘he treats men for acting like queers while he himself is flaming as fuck!’ and ‘he treats people for being gay while he’s obviously a closeted gay man himself!’, and I’d much rather they stay on the other side of that line.
RalfW
The test for libel for a public figure is way higher than for a private citizen. Since marcus makes his living in part by blabity blabbing about the evils of teh ghey on rightwing radio, and there are plenty of photographs of him in public stages campaigning for his wifey, he’s a public figure, and libel is a bitch to prove in that case.
And it’s just silly anyway. He’s a big boy, he can call gays barbarians? Gays and their allies get to respond.
Rihilism
@dpcap
Claiming someone gay is not slander. Period. The only defamation or reputation damage is in “Dr.” Bachmann’s twisted head. Everyone who is claiming that he is gay is fine with him being gay. Read (or reread) Savage’s comments and try again. And note that even if there is zero proof that Bachmann is gay, he is definitely effeminate, which is precisely the “habit” Mr. Bachmann tries to “eliminate” in gay men as part of “reparative” therapy. At minimum, he is a hypocrite, and is not living up to the masculine standard that he tries to foist upon gay men.
But let me also say, I could give a shit even if “Dr.” Bachmann is being slandered. He is purposefully damaging other peoples’ lives. He should be slandered, tarred and feathered, pilloried, and run out of town on a rail, frequently and with gusto. I don’t give a crap about this man’s feelings or reputation since he decided is was OK to to attack his fellow human beings for no other reason than their sexual orientation.
He deserves no sympathy and I’ll be damned if I’m going to show him any…
@different church-lady
Gays are allowed to call other gays “homo” or “fag” or “queer”. We’ve taken a page from the AA community and adopted those words as our own…
BTW, we can hook some electrodes to “Dr.” Bachmann’s vile junk and we’d know for sure. Any volunteers?…
BobS
@celticdragonchick #62:
I don’t know what Savage had to say about it, but blacks voted nearly 3 to 1 for Proposition 8, whereas other ethnic communities were split approximately 50/50.
Rihilism
Moderation? Was it “junk”?…
Rihilism
Personally, I think the stereotype being promulgated is that of the self-loathing closeted homosexual…
Peter
No (well, it is, but only secondarily). When you say ‘look at how he behaves, he’s obviously gay’, regardless of who you say it about, the message you are sending is ‘you can reliably identify gay men by their effeminate behaviors’. And I’m not comfortable with that, no matter who it’s being said about.
Joel
Let’s attach some caveats to that.
For one, there was only one exit poll for the 2008 California elections, with 2240 interviews. Of those interviewed, you have 10% black respondents which is basically threshold level for significance. However, the number of black respondents is low enough that the pollster omitted the crosstabs for demographics (i.e. no breakdown for black voters by age, education, party and religious affiliation). That’s a warning sign; even if the numbers aren’t significant, they should show the data so that the reader can judge for themselves.
Anyhow, all this obscured the fact that people who attend church services weekly were 82% in favor of proposition 8 (and there were more than twice as many poll respondents in that category than there were black poll respondents). Naturally, those numbers held up for republicans (82% yes) and conservatives (85% yes). Bush voters (80% yes), McCain voters (79% yes), Obama too liberal types (74% yes) and so on.
No promises, but this should link to the poll:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCkQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.sacbee.com%2Fsmedia%2F2008%2F11%2F05%2F18%2Fprop8.source.prod_affiliate.4.pdf&rct=j&q=2008%20california%20exit%20poll&ei=1a4kTurFJajjiALegpH2CQ&usg=AFQjCNFhuAWLLeO68Um_82IQKIZIBv70MQ&sig2=-oFKwRWjJtgL88Tc-yExeg&cad=rja
Hal
@ celticdragonchick (#62):
He’s also no friend of lesbians, bisexuals, fat people, the disabled, or the poor. Like Andrew Sullivan, Dan is “progressive” precisely to the degree that it’s in his personal interest (as an affluent first-world WASP male who happens to be gay) to be so. Color me unimpressed.
Rihilism
Before (and even after) Stonewall, one of the most reliable (and least dangerous) ways for a gay man to recognize another gay man was through observing behavior. The problem, IMO, is not gay men assuming that someone is gay because they are effeminate. After all, if the man turns out to be straight, it’s simply an awkward misunderstanding (assuming the straight man does not decide to bash the gay man based on some warped view of sexuality and masculinity). As society becomes more open (hopefully), the need to assume will become less necessary because it will simply be a matter of asking openly without fear of reprisal. Still, I think the practice of identifying family members based on observed behavior will remain part of gay culture and IMO, it’s mostly harmless.
The real problem, IMO, is that certain elements of our society (including “Dr.” Bachmann) have decided that there is something wrong with effeminate men (gay or straight). It’s something that needs to be “cured” or punished. That’s what we should all be uncomfortable with…
different church-lady
I’m going to make another attempt at explaining why someone could find this line of attack disconcerting. (The results, I’m sure, are going to be no different from anyone else’s attempts, but dammit, we must try…)
One of the more odious aspects of the odd phenomenon called Marcus Bachmann (and others like him) is that he presumes to know how the minds and sexuality of gay people work.
So, it more than just a bit ironic, to use a kind word, that some people think the way to beat this back is to… presume that they know how the mind and sexuality of Marcus Bachmann works.
As payback, that kind of thing is a ton of fun, and I’m not against it. But there’s a trap built in: you can’t spend years trying to convince people that making assumptions about other people’s sexuality is wrong, and then just chuck that aside when it suits you.
Well, I mean, you can if you want to, but not without creating a lot of cognitive dissonance in the people you’ve been trying to educate all this time.
This is not at all to dismiss or cover for Bachmann’s hatred (or hypothetical self hatred). As I said in past threads: Bachmann’s positions and actions are odious whether he’s gay or not. And it’s not about sympathy: I’ve got zero for him. And I certainly don’t give a crap about the definition of slander or whether he’s a victim of it. I’d like to see him taken down. I’d just like to see people do it in a way that doesn’t contradict anti-homophobia messages: “It’s bad to make fun of men with effeminate personalities — unless they deserve it!” is a really screwed-up message to be putting out.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
It’s my very powerful feeling that Dan Savage, and every single gay man/every single member of the LGBTQ community in America, have every right to respond to Marcus Bachmann in whatever way makes sense to them.
It’s the rest of us taking the piss that concerns me.
Oh, why look! I’ve written a little thing about it! http://emilylhauserinmyhead.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/why-i-think-marcus-bachmann-might-be-gay-and-why-i-think-it-matters/
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
PS I love Dan Savage, so I may just be tip-toeing away from the thread nao.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
@different church-lady: Um. On the other hand: This. All of this.
Yutsano
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther:
MY PRECIOUSSSSS HE ISSSS!! MINE!! :)
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
@Yutsano: Sadly, as handsome as I find him, I suspect I am very little threat to you….
Yutsano
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther: True. I’d let him cook you dinner though.
Also: are random rugelach cravings normal?
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
@Yutsano: That’s very kind of you! (Honestly, he’s so dreamy, it would be fun just to have him within ten feet of me).
And indeed they are! Especially if they come in dream form…. zzzzz (going to sleep now, but lovely to see you! xo!)