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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Like a slow train coming

Like a slow train coming

by DougJ|  July 20, 20111:07 pm| 37 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads

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Maybe I shouldn’t be surprised how often this happens, but as with Sarah Palin, the Iraq War, and Paul Ryan’s vouchercare program, the public is coming to its senses on the debt ceiling:

When struggling to understand why Americans would oppose a debt-limit increase, many of us said the public would come around — and sanity would prevail — once they learned more about why this is important and necessary. Over the last month or so, that’s exactly what’s happened.

We shouldn’t be surprised that the public takes a little longer to arrive at the same conclusions that you and I came to immediately. I’m guessing most Americans don’t spend much of their free time obsessively reading news stories and analysis.

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37Comments

  1. 1.

    C.J.

    July 20, 2011 at 1:10 pm

    You mean not everyone refreshes TPM and here 25 times a day like I do? I’m shocked.

    Of course they’re coming around, once things are explained in detail people usually do. Wasn’t that the case with healthcare? People disapproved of the concept but had sky high approval ratings of everything in it.

  2. 2.

    eastriver

    July 20, 2011 at 1:10 pm

    yes, true, but the Brown Tea-shirts don’t give a shit when the public is against them.

  3. 3.

    jrg

    July 20, 2011 at 1:11 pm

    Anyone who can’t take a small amount of time to educate themselves about the issues should not vote. “Low information voters” will be the death of us all.

  4. 4.

    slag

    July 20, 2011 at 1:11 pm

    Yet another indication of how much influence the Village has on public opinion. Let’s be honest: if the VSPs weren’t freaked out by this issue, the public wouldn’t be either.

  5. 5.

    Han's Big Snark Solo

    July 20, 2011 at 1:13 pm

    Yet what doesn’t seem to be changing?

    The Teabaggers insistence that the Debt ceiling is no big deal.

    These people are impervious to knowledge.

  6. 6.

    RalfW

    July 20, 2011 at 1:15 pm

    On the other hand, my local noon news says “the Senate [gang of 6] plan may have a tough time since the House has another plan.” (emphasis added)

    Cap, Crap, and Slash is not a plan. It’s a wiring diagram for a bomb.

  7. 7.

    jwb

    July 20, 2011 at 1:15 pm

    jrg: I worry far less about the low information voter than the high misinformed voter.

  8. 8.

    stuckinred

    July 20, 2011 at 1:19 pm

    Give em a light
    and they’ll follow it anywhere. . .

  9. 9.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    July 20, 2011 at 1:19 pm

    Isn’t that a famous aphorism? “The American people can always be counted on to do the right thing. Eventually After they have exhausted all the other possibilites.” Google says it was Churchill. So not quite the same thing.

    What I was thinking was how this whole debate, as Wall St pees the back seat about the way the people they gave the keys to are driving, was how this is 2000 all over again. Wall St and the Village gave Junior the keys, confident that Uncle Dick and Uncle Colin would keep an eye on the speedometer and make sure the lad kept his hands at 2 and 10. Turned out Uncle Dick was batshit insane and Uncle Colin could see that blind curve coming but darn it he just loved having his picture taken and hearing Tim address him by his title(s). Now it turns out that Boner fella, just the sort you enjoy 18 holes and a few drinks on the club terrace with (though he orders a couple too many before you’ve even changed to meet the girls in the dining room) can’t keep control of that little pencil neck from Virginia and all those odd people in polyester who wonder why there are two forks at their place setting. No one could have predicted…

  10. 10.

    MattF

    July 20, 2011 at 1:29 pm

    I hope the train arrives in time, but if not:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg80rmz2h9c

  11. 11.

    Julia Grey

    July 20, 2011 at 1:30 pm

    So….should we say that’s why these fights over issues that take a lot of explaining should always be drawn out to their maximum extent? The longer it takes to resolve, the more chance there is for non-political people to hear the explanations?

  12. 12.

    Sly

    July 20, 2011 at 1:30 pm

    We shouldn’t be surprised that the public takes a little longer to arrive at the same conclusions that you and I came to immediately. I’m guessing most Americans don’t spend much of their free time obsessively reading news stories and analysis.

    The greatest strength of representative government, that the electorate can empower a political class to take care of its business on their behalf so that they may go about their lives without having to know all the minutia of governance, has also always been its greatest weakness.

  13. 13.

    Comrade Javamanphil

    July 20, 2011 at 1:33 pm

    Can’t find it now but pretty sure I read somewhere today that a plurality supports raising the debt ceiling. But then when they are told social security checks might not go out, it becomes a majority (or dang close.) Heckuva job, MSM! The pollsters are now in charge of educating America.

  14. 14.

    Cris (without an H)

    July 20, 2011 at 1:34 pm

    @eastriver: the Brown Tea-shirts don’t give a shit when the public is against them.

    In fact, it just further convinces them that they’re right.

  15. 15.

    Sly

    July 20, 2011 at 1:39 pm

    @eastriver:

    yes, true, but the Brown Tea-shirts don’t give a shit when the public is against them.

    They have convinced themselves that they are the public, and that everyone else is part of one corrupt special interest or another. Thus, the opinion of everyone else can be discarded.

    It has the same effect that you describe, however.

  16. 16.

    slag

    July 20, 2011 at 1:42 pm

    @eastriver:

    yes, true, but the Brown Tea-shirts don’t give a shit when the public is against them.

    True. But I have to admit, I generally don’t give a shit when the public is against me either. Who really does?

  17. 17.

    Trurl

    July 20, 2011 at 1:45 pm

    ha ha… Wait til the public wakes up to the fact (as the Republicans will make double extra sure to point out to them) that Obama tried/managed to cut their Social Security and Medicare.

    I take it the Man From Hope’s re-election strategy doesn’t require Florida’s electoral votes?

  18. 18.

    Jager

    July 20, 2011 at 1:58 pm

    After the Tea Party led vote on the Cut, Cap and Balance bill yesterday, NPR interviewed 4, first term Tea Partiers, one yahoo said something like this, “whenn ah look in mah leetle gran dotter Reagan’s(no shit!)ayes, ah wunt her tah kno ah deed somthun raht” I am so tired of corn pone accents, I think you have to go pretty far un in the hills or damn far out in the country to find people who actually talk like these asshats do.

  19. 19.

    jl

    July 20, 2011 at 2:02 pm

    From what I have seen on TV, heard on radio, and read in rags like the WaPo, a person could watch, listen and read obsessively and still not understand.

    It struck me that I do not remember the last time I saw the salient fact that the debt ceiling is to cover debts that the US government has already authorized, or incurred through bond sales. Looks like people are slowly putting the story together themselves.

    I can only think of one mass media political analyst who includes enough facts mixed in his false balance to actually indicate that he understands what is going on, and informs the listeners, and I only hear him on local radio shows, which is the SF Chronicle’s Marc Sandalow.

    Recently the guy even corrected himself. Recently said case for including Social Security in debt deal was weak, after including in the laundry list of ‘critical issues’ week after week. (I fantasize that my phone call complaint helped a little on that.)

    Edit: sorry, giving Sandalow a little too much credit. I don’t think he said the case was weak, as if he could make an independent judgment. I recall last few times he was on the air saying only that ‘some say’ Social Security is important, while listing other items as obvious deficit and debt problems. Well, that is something. Better than what I see on the national media when I visit places that run the TV machine all day.

  20. 20.

    DFH no.6

    July 20, 2011 at 2:03 pm

    I’m sorry that the following statements are true, but they are, without dispute:

    The majority of our fellow countrymen are dumb as posts when it comes to economics.

    And a similar majority (roughly the same set of people) have pretty much the same shallow “understanding” of national politics (and world events) as The Village.

    There are any number of reasons why this is so (and The Village, of course, looms large on both accounts).

    But they are true, unequivocally.

    It’s why we can’t have nice things.

  21. 21.

    jl

    July 20, 2011 at 2:12 pm

    @17 Trurl, well I suggest you give up then. High probability of some cuts to social security and medicare. But on other hand, the GOP will lie about it anyway no matter what happens, so not sure you should talk yourself into defeat.

    If Democrats had guts they would point out the GOP con game and lies.

    At some point changes will have to made to both programs, albeit minor changes for Social Security. Anything you do will produce dishonest GOP defamation campaign.

    The real political catastrophe would be obvious benefit cuts to social insurance without any increase in taxes for wealthy.

  22. 22.

    ET

    July 20, 2011 at 2:15 pm

    Not only do they not obsessively read news stories, but when they do most of those stores are written by know nothing hacks. Or just the lazy.

    It will take a while for the 25+ years of conditioning the GOP has pushed with the help of a compliant media to ease up even a millimeter.

  23. 23.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    July 20, 2011 at 2:16 pm

    I take it the Man From Hope’s re-election strategy

    Is it 1996? Hallelujah, hallelujah! I’m 28 and my back doesn’t hurt anymore! Tonight I’m gonna party like it’s 1999.

  24. 24.

    jl

    July 20, 2011 at 2:19 pm

    @20 DFh no. 6

    Mark Thoma reports some eye popping survey results in a new column:

    ” For example, 43% of people receiving unemployment insurance deny they receive government benefits, and 40% of those on Medicare answer the same way: They do not use government programs ”

    Why Taxpayers Are So Angry—and So Wrong About Spending
    By MARK THOMA, The Fiscal Times
    July 20, 2011

    http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Columns/2011/07/20/Why-Taxpayers-Are-So-Angry-and-So-Wrong-About-Spending.aspx

    We are doomed.

    Edit: How, how, in the name of any god you care to name, how, can a person get unemployment benefits and not somehow dimly realize that it is a government benefit? Especially now, when there have been repeated debates, that even get on the TV news shows, about whether the government (that’s a clue, right) should extend them?

  25. 25.

    Nemesis

    July 20, 2011 at 2:20 pm

    I take issue with this…

    I’m guessing most Americans don’t spend much of their free time obsessively reading news stories and analysis.

    I spend most of my workday reading news stories, navel gazing and posting at BJ.

  26. 26.

    jl

    July 20, 2011 at 2:27 pm

    I mean ferkrisakes, almost everyone who gets unemployment benefits has to go a dreary government office to apply for unemployment benefits, right? Do these pathetic nincompoops think that John Galt Free Enterprise Unemployment Insurance Company offices just happen to rent space in dreary government office buildings?

    I collected unemployment for a few months, but was so long ago, not sure it is the same now. I had to apply at a dreary government office, and got checks mailed to me with that nice Mr. Government’s name in large and very fancy type across the top.

  27. 27.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    July 20, 2011 at 2:34 pm

    @jl #24:

    43% of people receiving unemployment insurance deny they receive government benefits

    The key word there is deny. I’m willing to bet that the folks polled almost certainly know in their hearts that they are receiving govt benefits, but after decades of stigmatizing those benefits as something shameful which only those people over on the other side of town do, they do not want to publically admit that they are receiving govt benefits, even in a putatively private phone conversation with a pollster. The pollster might as well be calling up and asking “Are you white trash?”, or “Do you like to view porn?”. A large portion of their sample are not going to admit to it even if they know they are doing it.

    This is a very big problem, that govt benefits have been stigmatized to this degree, but it is a different problem from people being so ignorant they don’t realise what a govt benefit is.

  28. 28.

    Heliopause

    July 20, 2011 at 2:38 pm

    No, I wouldn’t say the public is “coming to its senses” or, as Benen says, “learning.” The public is being told by a steady barrage of news stories that the debt ceiling, once important issues like Anthony Weiner and Casey Anthony are out of the way, needs to be taken care of. The President repeats it every day, Boehner and McConnell admit it every now and then. This is the same process by which support for the invasion of Iraq was ginned up, just repeat something often enough and phrase the poll question correctly and you’ll get the answer you want. So no, this isn’t some breakthrough moment for America’s collective intelligence, even though by accident they’re getting closer to a correct assessment of the situation.

  29. 29.

    Elie

    July 20, 2011 at 2:53 pm

    LeftTrun@ 28

    I totally agree with you that it might be less about the fact of receiving government assistance than the stigma that has evolved.

    I will add this: it makes no sense to call the “masses” stupid from upstring commenters(though I fall into that as well). Not only does it impair out ability to craft appropriate ways to connect, but indeed hurts us at the humanistic core that we say we value. We can’t let that resentment overtake what is the most important thing — that over time, we indeed make progress and help each other.
    Shaming and derision are very powerful.. it shapes your thought and communication even when you try to hide it. We have to get these people on board somehow or we have no hope.

    Easy. Hell no. I am struggling myself with hard feelings and deep bitterness towards some folks who betrayed me in a way that has caused me a great deal of pain. I have to get over it, but I am not there yet. I have to act in a way that hopefully eventually I will actually be over it. It is not turning the other cheek. It is instead just trying to be who I am and who I value.

    Maybe one day we can look back at this as a formative and pivotal time. We won’t if we can’t figure out how to make it work for all of us. We all own the problem, not just “them”.

  30. 30.

    satby

    July 20, 2011 at 3:01 pm

    @17 Trurl

    I take it the Man From Hope’s re-election strategy doesn’t require Florida’s electoral votes?

    You’re a moron. The man from Hope was Clinton, asshat. And he had no problem getting relected in spite of everything the Repugs did. And I’m betting Obama won’t have much trouble either.

  31. 31.

    ChrisB

    July 20, 2011 at 3:27 pm

    nemesis @25:

    I spend most of my workday reading news stories, navel gazing and posting at BJ.

    Posted in the middle of the work day, no less (just like me).

  32. 32.

    DFH no.6

    July 20, 2011 at 3:32 pm

    Elie @30:

    I didn’t call the masses “stupid”.

    I made the completely non-controversial point that the majority of Americans (and by extent, of course, the entire world) are dumb, ignorant, uninformed, misguided – whatever term you want to use – in regards to economics.

    Most of these same people are no doubt quite clever/knowledgeable/accomplished/etc. on some important thing or another, typically something (or set of things) crucial to their own (and their families’) personal survival and well-being. Like how to fix machinery, or grow food, or heal diseases, or a whole host of (mostly less-lofty, like my own profession) other things, ad infinitum. Thus, not stupid.

    See the difference?

    One of my bosses, for instance, is a truly brilliant businessman; smart and skilled at his job and worth every penny of his compensation because he is key to us making millions (and hiring rather than laying-off in our hard-hit area and business sector). But he’s a completely misinformed flat-earth teabagger ignoramus when it comes to economics. Primarily due to rightwing tribal beliefs that thoroughly color his worldview and make understanding, say, the debt ceiling situation, about as impossible for him as me actually grasping quantum mechanics.

    I don’t go around calling the mass of humanity “stupid” because I don’t believe that’s true, in general.

    But on certain specific, “larger”, important-to-us-all things, like economics? Absolutely, undeniably true.

    Realizing that, I believe, actually helps me be a better activist for progress (in my own miniscule way).

  33. 33.

    boss bitch

    July 20, 2011 at 3:32 pm

    People don’t need to be obsessive about these issues. They need a media that’s not full of willful morons. The debt ceiling is simple to explain. All the media had to do was make this clear in 1 0r 2 sentences, but they didn’t. Not everything should be left to Obama and messaging. At some point the media is going to have to do its job.

  34. 34.

    R-Jud

    July 20, 2011 at 3:35 pm

    Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Is it 1996? Hallelujah, hallelujah! I’m 28 and my back doesn’t hurt anymore!

    Fuck, I’m 16 and I have to take AP Chemistry again?

  35. 35.

    James E. Powell

    July 20, 2011 at 6:41 pm

    People don’t need to be obsessive about these issues. They need a media that’s not full of willful morons.

    If the American people rely upon the corporate press/media to get all their information about their country they are handing their democracy to the ruling class.

  36. 36.

    No one of Importance

    July 20, 2011 at 7:17 pm

    The majority of our fellow countrymen people, including self-labelled economists are dumb as posts when it comes to economics.

    FIFY. After all, it’s churlish to insult the public’s understanding of an arcane subject like economics, when people paid to comment on the subject, like one McArdle,M., can’t make sense of about it on days ending in a ‘y’.

  37. 37.

    Caz

    July 20, 2011 at 10:02 pm

    The power of propaganda and lies, combined with the gullable and ignorant nature of the masses, equals a populace that is starting to “come around,” as you put it. It doesn’t mean raising the debt ceiling is a good idea. It just means that the progressives bullshit is sometimes effective over time as they continue to repeat the same lies over and over. After a while, the gullable and ignorant among us start to buy in.

    You didn’t (and still don’t) seem to care at all what pct. of the masses are against Obamacare. You didn’t claim that it shows that Obamacare is a bad idea and should be repealed.

    Typical liberal dishonesty and disingenuousness: cite stuff that supports your agenda, ignore stuff that undermines your agenda. Hypocrite.

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