The second part of whatever is going on in Norway is an attack by a man dressed as a police officer at a Labour party youth camp on Utoya island:
There are 700 people on the island camp. At 5.20 pm ambulance personel were told not to proceed out to the island because there was still shooting there. One Labour youth member tweeted: “We are sitting down by the beach. A man is shotting clothed in a police uniform. Help us! When are the police coming to help us!”
Police stormtroopers are about to land on Utoya island from helicopters. Shooting still going on. Eyewitness describes shooting from his position on the mainland: “There is a little war going on out there”
There are 700 people on the island, and the Norwegian PM Jens Stoltenberg was supposed to address it (he didn’t, and he’s safe, but BBC just reported the former PM is on the island).
BBC live coverage. Guardian live coverage.
Update: This is the site of the group being attacked, and here’s the information page about the camp.
Update: Here’s a map.
Update: NRK (Norwegian Public Broadcasting), AFP and Reuters are reporting that the gunman has been arrested, and BBC reports that “several people” have been killed.
murbella
tole ja.
in the run up to the Wingularity you will see men bark like dogs and speak in tongues.
will you feel sad because you pimped EDK and gave intellectual cover to the conservative wingnuts in this country?
someguy
“whatever is going on” is another excuse to ramp up the perpetual war on brown people.
And bring back EDK so he can tell us how lower marginal tax rates would have prevented this.
MobiusKlein
@murbell: don’t be a raging asshole. Folks in Norway are being attacked, and it’s your prime directive to complain about this blog’s management?
Corner Stone
I’m no fan of EDK, but I’m missing the connection?
The Other Chuck
Can we just ban this fucking bitch murbella already?
4tehlulz
@Corner Stone: It’s m_c; there’s always a connection.
stuckinred
From the site
Lee
@Corner Stone:
murbella is an asshole is the connection.
Linda Featheringill
Excuse me. How does sympathy for people being attacked translate into libertarian/conservative/liberal political philosophy arguments?
Did EDK attack Norway? What the hey?
And by the way, I doubt if the guy dressed like a policeman while shooting at the young people at camp is brown. Norway is fairly lily white across the board. If the “policemen” had darker skin, the tweeter calling for help would probably have mentioned it.
stuckinred
someguy
That’s fucking bullshit.
stuckinred
Hello, not every fucking Muslim is brown.
The Moar You Know
murbella and someguy: “fuck you” cannot come close to describing the depths of contempt I feel for both of you at this moment.
Chris
“I don’t see the connection to Vietnam, Walter.”
“Well, there isn’t a literal connection, Dude.”
“Walter, face it, there isn’t any connection.”
Moonbatman
Damn Christian fundies.
freelancer
There is no why, m_c is just unhinged.
murbella
im a muslim an’ im a whitegurrl.
do you ‘tards personally know any Norweigians?
I do.
watch and see. Norway has wingnuts that hate social justice, government and youth, just like Murrican conservatives and libertarians do.
Red/blue genetics works the world over.
The Wingularity is near.
Martin
This wouldn’t have happened if those kids had all been armed. And those office buildings in Oslo also, too.
The Pale Scot
“Freedom for all people
Justice in a society with equal rights and social justice for all
Solidarity where all contributes to make the society a better place in which to live
Participation in a society where all together is creating the future
Respecting nature and a sustainable development of the society”
Sorta does sound like a militia-like action.
Maybe a tea-partier tourist was out on one of those “If it’s Tuesday this must be Belgium” tours and suffered cognitive dissonance from being in a socialist lily-white society and lost it.
Jewish Steel
BBC:
Bjorn Magne Slinde emails: People are adviced NOT to call people they know on Utoya, due to the risk of it giving off the location of those who are hiding in the bushes and elsewhere on the island, to the shooter.
Holy shit!
stuckinred
murbella
you draw a crowd like horseshit draws flies.
freelancer
@murbella:
“You wanna know the first rule? You’d know it if you ever spent a day in your life. You never open your mouth until you know what the shot is.”
Words to live by. Try having a little patience and Skepticism instead of indulging in your freakishly huge and unself-aware confirmation bias. You might find it leads you somewhere in the vicinity of decency.
stuckinred
Jewish Steel
opsec
JGabriel
Likes to dress in costumes symbolizing authority and shoot at lefties? Sounds like this attack might be from the Norwegian equivalent of tea partiers.
.
kindness
No doubt the NRA will soon be trumpeting the need to have armed all the kids in the youth camp so they could have defended themselves from this deranged individual/group.
How soon it spreads to other rightwingers for contributions, only the FSM knows. bad way to start a weekend.
Man I sure hope [email protected] was sarcasm…. I didn’t see that till after I posted.
Ol' Dirty DougJ
I will give murbella a time out.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Ol’ Dirty DougJ: Thank you for that. For reasons not pertinent to the discussion, I’m having a very bad day suddenly. And murbella was making it worse.
MattR
Too early to know if it is accurate, but there has been a claim of responsibility (from the Guardian blog)
@Ol’ Dirty DougJ: PS. Thanks Doug. An occassion like this is not the time for her BS.
murbella
take my bet then, stuck, freelancer.
i have euro-friends in Norway– they know what teabaggers are there too.
chopper
like the devil, EDK is the source of all evil things.
chopper
about fuckin’ time.
stuckinred
murbella
I’ve been Norwegian all my life, go fuck yourself with that weak shit.-
murbella
bella, you are about as hiphop as Michael Steele.
wrb
If the office buildings had been rigged with explosives they would have blown the shit out of the bombs when they were set off and shown ’em.
murbella
@stuck
wallah…i thot you were Murrican.
mybad.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@murbella: The name’s a BJ joke that’s got nothing to do with hip hop. But don’t let that slow down your gratuitous insults.
murbella
Nah, mistermix is the Devil.
EDK is just another glibertarian wanker searching for pageclicks.
MattR
And reports are now saying that an arrest has been made on the island of Utoya.
EDIT: And this note from the Guardian blog (which like all prelimanry repors should be regarded with some skepticism.
Martin
A Norwegian in America is about as impossible as, what, a Muslim white girl?
Jesus, what a retard…
Citizen_X
So, ah, when does this timeout start?
Martin
Hey, it takes a while to type in all of the aliases.
Mnemosyne
Yeah, that doesn’t sound like a right-wing parody of an Islamist group at all. Were those cartoons even published in Norway recently?
karen marie
From Wikipedia (because I don’t understand Norwegian):
Omega Paladin
âHelpers of the Global Jihadâ are murdering Norwegians and it’s the fault of the “teabaggers” and “Murrican conservatives and libertarians”. Sure, that makes sense. I mean, it’s a small jump from lower marginal tax rates to mass murder, right?
karen marie
I don’t know why my comment’s in moderation — I am not aware of ALL internet traditions, but AUF is affiliated with the Norwegian Labour Party of which the current PM is a member.
Jewish Steel
This is also opsec?
lacp
Mnemosyne, my first thought when I heard about Utoya was that this was the work of neo-Nazis. Yes, “Helpers of the Global Jihad” sounds like a right-wing parody. Unfortunately, it also sounds like the real deal. If the bombing and the shooter are connected, we should know more shortly.
Felinious Wench
My heart hurts.
Yutsano
@murbella: If you were any kind of Muslimah you would know that Shaytan is always in our hearts. And that the true jihad is battling the evil in our own souls. But you’re too self-important for that.
Svensker
God, I’m already getting the e-mails from my winger relatives saying “Religion of Peace!” Because the dang Mooslims are all responsible for some nutjob going off, but our dropping bombs on folks for 10 fucking years doesn’t mean anything at all.
I feel like fucking screaming.
Steve
My guess is that the group saying this has to do with the Mohammed cartoons is full of shit. It could have something to do with the Kurdish guy who was charged with terrorism last week, but his group has never conducted any kind of attacks in Europe previously, and that seems kind of quick to organize what seems like a pretty significant attack. I suppose the smart money says wait and see.
Karen
I don’t know what Norway’s crime rate or gun policy is but it sounds strange that the bombs would be for cartoons of Mohammed that we haven’t heard about on the news. Usually we hear about it first, don’t we?
And the gunman may be Norwegian and it might just be a coincidence that it happened the same day? Weird.
Citizen_X
If that’s legitimate, then they’re probably angry that everyone laughs at their stupid name.
MattR
@Mnemosyne:
Last February from what I can tell. But I don’t think that is a definitive indicator that the cartoons were or were not a motivation for this attack.
Nethead Jay
As I said in DougJ’s previous post, I’m in Denmark just to the south of Norway, and I’m talking to friends up there. The latest about the shooting on UtĂžya is that apparently several are dead and they’ve got someone but it’s not sure whether the situation is over.
To murbella and someguy: FUCK YOU!!
ETA: They’re now saying 7 dead from the explosion. No definite number from the shooting.
The Spy Who Loved Me
News report just said the two incidents are not related. I don’t vouch for the accuracy of this report, as that would really be a hell of a coincidence.
Yutsano
@MattR: I haven’t seen any calls for responsibility yet, which is curious. And ominous considering what all else is going on.
MattR
@Yutsano: I posted the one I saw printed on the Guardian blog up above.
Martin
I’ll say.
Punchy
When does DougJ tell us how Republicans will demagouge Diet Coke, Chuck D, and heart stents?
Roger Moore
@Karen:
Or it could be an opportunist. There were probably some crazies who had fantasized about carrying out that kind of attack but never carried through. When the bomb went off, they might assume all the police would be distracted dealing with the aftermath and see this as a perfect opportunity to carry out their attack. We won’t know anything until there’s been a chance for more details to come out.
daveNYC
Sounds like a bad Google Translate job.
scav
we’re also partially relying on facebook postings and tweets by teenagers in a panic, although clearly in a panic that still allows time for posting on bloody facebook.
Martin
Or it could be a wingnut. Bombs go off in Oslo, wingnut cop blames Labor Party, happens to be near the camp and armed.
Didn’t they just execute the guy that ran around and killed a bunch of arbitrarily brown people post 9/11? Same kind of deal. And the wingnut at the Holocaust Memorial, etc.
Tony J
Karen,
Unlikely. They’ve got people in custody, including the island shooter, so we’ll find out for sure soon enough.
Martin
They’re teenagers. They were likely already on Facebook when it started.
pattonbt
@murbella: So are you the speaking in tongues sign of the apocalypse?
The Raven
The attack on the camp might be right-wing terrorism: the camp that has been attacked is run by Norway’s leading s0cial1st party. The bomb in Oslo, who knows?
MattR
@Martin:
They are also frightened and hiding, possibly alone. Is it really that shocking that they used the resources available to try and calm their nerves instead of just sitting there shaking in fear?
stuckinred
scav
Martin: granted, and more power to them. just a momentary microrant of consider the source, everything is still in chaos mode.
fasteddie9318
Krekar’s arrest is quite a coincidence, but only that for now. I will say that this doesn’t strike me as the kind of intricate plot that would demand years of planning like 9/11. A car bomb and a gunman are easier to put together. And it’s always possible that Krekar, whose legal status in Norway has been hanging by a thread for some time now, had this attack in the bag ready to go when something happened.
Mjaum
Shooter at UtĂžya was 6’3″, blond, white. Dressed as policeman, automatic weapon (machine pistol).
Police are saying that the two incidents are likely connected (nah, really, see next factoid:).
The AUF is the youth branch of Norway’s Governing party, the Labour Party.
All this direct from Norwegian news, curtesy of someone who is glad he lives eight hundred miles north of Oslo this year (unlike last).
-Mjaum
jazzgurl
Why are my posts not going through?
jl
Glad it seems like the attacks are stopped, and hope that is the case.
If the attacks are over the Kurdish extradition issue, and done by a Kurdish group, then the appearance of a suspect doesn’t mean much. Kurds main ethnic ancestry is from Iran. A Kurd could look like anybody.
So, other than some claims which are easy to make by any groups whether involved or not, we know precisely nothing about who is responsible for the violence.
Saw someplace that one claim was made by an organization with ties to Kurds, but can’t find it now.
trollhattan
Ugh, Norway? Norway?!? How does Norway get on the receiving end of this sort of evil?
As to the earlier nonsense of who and what is Norwegian, I grew up in Seattle so have known many, and this is a bit personal I suppose.
(Mostly unrelated, Norway has been enthralled with their success in this year’s Tour, so today’s cruelty seems somehow magnified.)
MattR
More on the claim of responsibility from the NY Times
fasteddie9318
Wow, some weird shit on BBC right now. First the Kings College faculty member mouthing winger rhetoric about this all being an Al-Qaeda Classic plot (BUT HE DOESN’T WANT TO SPECULATE!) against those poor wimpy Norwegians who are too childlike to defend themselves, then one of the reporters comes on with this bizarre “if one of the attackers is blonde with blue eyes it can’t be a Muslim plot” line of thinking.
Catsy
@murbella:
Neither of which are relevant to the contempt you’ve earned from people across the spectrum.
That you’re an unhinged, one-note idiot whose knee-jerk response to pretty much anything is to take smug swipes at someone who doesn’t even blog here anymore might have something to do with it, though.
Nethead Jay
@Martin #65: The primary means of communication for most people under 50 here is by cell phone. One advantage of sending a SMS, Tweet or FB message via such is that it’s silent, unlike talking. But don’t let that distract you from getting your asshole on.
I hope you’re not the Martin that usually hangs around here.
Mnemosyne
Ask Tim McVeigh.
MikeJ
Man with “nordic appearance” arrested according to aftenposten.
fasteddie9318
Moderation for what? FYWP.
TooManyJens
@Nethead Jay: I didn’t see Martin’s comment as criticizing the teenagers, just explaining why it’s not so surprising that they would have been posting to FB in the midst of a panic.
MikeJ
@TooManyJens: I’m with you. Martin may be unthinkingly in thrall to the turtlenecked one, but he’s not an asshole.
liberal
@76 Catsy wrote,
Not quite true. My-taco’s-tan has at least one other note, blithering away about genetic determinism.
MattR
@MattR: There is now an update from McCants’s website
TooManyJens
@MikeJ:
…do I want to know?
Martin
I am, but really, getting my asshole on?
I was merely pointing out that if I’m talking on my phone when something happens, I’m likely to use my phone to communicate. If I’m on my computer when something happens, I’m likely to use my computer to communicate. If I’m Facebooking when something happens, I’m likely to use Facebook to communicate.
It’s such an assholish observation that I pressed our emergency notification system to not rely on a single assumed means of communication, but to hit everything simultaneously because when things happen, you need to reach people in the mode that they’re currently. As MattR pointed out, when people are alone and scared, they tend to not switch modes quite so readily. Lessons learned from VATech and others.
My apologies that I’m sufficiently insensitive to the social proclivities of Norwegian teenagers relative to their American counterparts.
Linda Featheringill
@Nethead Jay:
Please keep us updated as you receive news.
jl
@83 MikeJ
“turtlenecked one” Is that Obama or McConnell?
Also, I don’t see point of speculation about who is responsible on basis of impressions in the middle of a crisis about what a suspect looks like.
And Also Too: thanks to netheadJ for the reports. Please keep us informed of developments.
Alex
Would it be uncouth to add that Matoko Chan/Murbella has been “at this game,” as it were, for awhile now (see the threads immediately after the Loughner incident) and should have been smothered by administrators here a long time ago? I don’t see why this disgusting urchin was coddled for so long.
Martin
He’s accusing me of being an Apple fanboi.
WaterGirl
TooManyJens & Mike J
My thoughts, as well. No judgment intended there, just explanation of why it wasn’t crazy to think someone would post on facebook.
My first thought for communication in an emergency is the phone, then text if I needed to be very quiet. I think in panic mode you go to whatever communication you are most comfortable with, without thinking.
And maybe facebook or twitter would be the best choices because you don’t have to rely on just one person to pick up the other end of the phone.
jl
@90: Ah, forgot about that turtlenecked one.
Nethead Jay
@TooManyJens: Possible, in which case I’m sorry. I’ve just seen that sort of “stupid teenagers” criticism too often. Also, as I said up above, I’ve got friends in Oslo so it’s a littlebit close at the moment.
MattR
@Alex: That is much less uncouth than my inner conversation deciding if I should make a Rupert Murdoch joke.
Martin
I wasn’t saying they’re stupid – just, well, normal. That’s what teenagers do. I have one. He spends almost as much time Facebooking as his mother.
Don’t worry about it. It’s a bad day. You’re entitled.
JGabriel
@Svensker:
Just send them a response that says:
.
Stefan
If thatâs legitimate, then theyâre probably angry that everyone laughs at their stupid name.
In Zadie Smith’s novel “White Teeth”, one of the Muslim characters, Millat, gets mixed up with a British Islamist group called Keepers of the Eternal and Victorious Islamic Nation. When one of the other characters points out that this spells KEVIN, Millat responds “yes, we are aware we have an acronym problem. We’re working on it.”
someguy
The “fuck you” stuff is fine with me but I do need to point out that Svensker confirmed what I was saying. The right is already using this as an excuse to ramp up its war on brown peepul, moose limbs, what have you. That is exactly what I said would happen, and it didn’t take long now, did it? I’d claim that I’m smart but I’m not; rather it’s the right that is boringly predictable in their bigotry.
Anono
Oh for fucks sake not even a majority of Muslims are “brown” but all them foreigners look alike! am I right?
gwangung
Huh. Actually, I think it’s smart in a way—it’s an easy, quick way to let people know what’s going on and they’re OK.
In any event, I really can’t think of it as dumb.
JGabriel
@Omega Paladin:
We’re not saying it’s their fault. We’re saying they’re of a similar outlook and political orientation.
I mean, I do hope you’re not seriously implying that religious fundamentalists of any stripe — whether they be Christian, Islamic, or Randian fundamentalists — are anything but right-wing conservatives/radicals.
.
Litlebritfrnt
This is getting worse according to the Telegraph live feed
“19.23 Latest eyewitness reports, via Twitter, on NRK claim that 20-30 dead youths could be seen floating by the shore.”
Suffern ACE
@MattR: Shorter Omnimous Group: We were O.K. with leading you to believe it was us when it was merely a car bombing of Central Oslo, but we’re not O.K. with you believing it was us when kids were shot at camp.
bemused
JGabriel,
Excellent idea. I hope Svensker takes your suggestion and reports back on the reactions.
Alex
@MattR: Feel free to joke away on that front. I’d likely agree with you.
cleek
no matter what it was that happened, it proves i was right about something.
Nethead Jay
@Martin: Okay, sorry I flew off the handle at you, I’m just a little sensitive to what seemed like teenager-mocking because I’ve seen too much of that. Looking at it again I get that that wasn’t the intention.
Watching Norwegian TV2 now, will report in a bit.
Litlebritdifrnt
Oooops can’t spell my own handle apparently.
Live feed from the telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8655175/Oslo-explosion-live-coverage.html
“19.23 Latest eyewitness reports, via Twitter, on NRK claim that 20-30 dead youths could be seen floating by the shore.
LATEST: This eye-witness was assisting police by evacuating youths in his boat. Apparently, he could count 20-30 people shot dead. Awful.
less than a minute ago via web Favorite Retweet Reply
Ketil B. Stensrud
ketilbstensrud”
Horrible
stuckinred
Nethead Jay
You speak Norske?
wrb
BBC is quoting someone who says he saw more than 20 bodies on the island
bemused
Oh God, I can’t bear to think about their parents and families dealing with this.
cleek
eyewitness from the camp says, about the shooter:
alwhite
Someguy – they always blame the brown or Muslims first – ALWAYS. When it turns out they are wrong their response is ALWAYS “well its the sort of thing they would do!” as if that somehow covers their bigotry.
I was sitting in an airport the day little Timmy decided to blow up OK City & it was the very first thing the talking heads did – speculate about what was then called “Arab Terrorists”
stuckinred
Eastern Norway?
Nethead Jay
Heh, and I volunteer with some ;) Guess we understand each other. It actually struck me as kinda smart to get out a mass message that way.
jl
@113: Nordic countries are not as culturally homogeneous as Americans think, and different regions have dialects, and other more important differences.
fasteddie9318
I realize they can’t talk about it for many reasons, but I sure would like to know why the Norwegians think that these two incidents were related beyond the obvious coincidence of timing.
stuckinred
Interesting points in a Huff Post post:
cleek
@fasteddie9318:
from Litlebritdifrnt’s Guardian link:
they don’t give specifics, obviously, but it seems like they don’t have much doubt about the connex.
Nethead Jay
@stuckinred: Yes, a bit. It’s not too far from Danish.
And before someone asks why I’m hanging around here, I’ve lived and worked in the USA for a number of years before coming back here.
stuckinred
Aha
My grandmother spoke it but that’s a long time ago. My people came from Stevanger.
Ol' Dirty DougJ
I have to tell you that?
Ed Marshall
The reports keep saying he was “dressed as a policeman”. Isn’t it possible, or even more likely that he *was* a policeman.
Jewish Steel
@cleek:
Oh yeah? Like hell it does!
/pro-forma blog arguing
fasteddie9318
@ cleek:
I don’t really have much doubt about the connection either, but that’s purely because of the timing of the attacks. I’m just curious about what else the Norwegians have learned or if that’s still the primary link.
stuckinred
Tweets in english from the island
http://twitter.com/#!/rtege
Chris
Two things are certain.
1) If it IS an attack by islamist terrorists, expect the right wing to shower the web with yet another sprinking of demands that the entire Muslim population of the planet Earth specifically take responsibility by disowning these people with a loyalty pledge.
(When they eventually break down and comply, expect the righties to say “yeah but they’re lying.”)
2) If on the other hand it is an attack by right-wing extremists, expect the right wing to refuse to take any responsibility, to express extreme offense and outrage at the very idea that anyone could possibly associate them with what was obviously “lone wolves,” and to shift the real story to how the left is using this to oppress them.
(And besides, as their fringe will happily say out loud, the terrorists were probably left wing plants anyway. Or something).
daveNYC
Goddamn.
trollhattan
@106.Litlebritdifrnt – July 22, 2011 | 2:48 pm · Link
Horrid, utterly horrid.
Chris
Here’s one from my favorite sickening right wing news outlet, PJMedia.
The text itself is quite bland. The comments section are where it’s at. Look for number 7 –
“âLabor party youth organizationâ What is that, a soçialist training camp? It sounds like something out of Nazi germany.”
and the response to it –
“Well, yes, actually, it is a soçialist training camp. Also known as, an indoctrination summer camp for teens run by the countryâs ruling political party, the Labor Party, which is basically soçialist.
Things are different in Europe.”
Only at PJMedia could you witness a terrorist attack on a youth camp and immediately start spittling against the dead people.
fasteddie9318
This whole claim of responsibility by an Islamic group that AFAICT nobody had heard of until today, followed by the clumsy retraction of the claim, and the breathlessness with which wingers are rushing to call this al-Qaeda (including the dude who keeps popping up on the BBC of all places), makes me think this wasn’t Islamic.
MTiffany
Around 3:15pm I tuned into CNN for all of the thirty seconds I could tolerate…
Anchor/host Boobs McSuckandswallow trotted out the loaded question “How should security in Norway change in response to these terrorists attacks?” I assume she was asking because, obviously, we all know that moar surveillance and moar police powers for the state would have prevented both the bombing and the shootings. FSM, if only we could yank Fox ‘News’ and CNN from the air might we see some real goddamned reporting.
daveNYC
Over the dead children no less. Of course, to the PJ Media crew, being a soc.ialist and being a person are mutually exclusive.
Citizen_X
Whoever turns out to be responsible, shooting up a camp full of teenagers is particularly heinous, by design. 20 or more dead? Jesus.
scav
fasteddie9318: one can hope, but the media-chasing of experts in Islamic terror is simple evidence that some experts in Islamic terror love media attention.
ETA: and yes, the beeb one does seem to be an a-one slimy example of the breed.
stuckinred
Citizen_X
kinda hard to shoot 20 anyone by accident.
MattR
@stuckinred: Dick Cheney disagrees.
I don’t really like saying this aloud, but I am kinda surprised that we haven’t had an attack against soft targets like malls or camps. Seems like it would be relatively easy to pull off and would have as big an effect as a more spectacular attack.
Nethead Jay
@Ed Marshall: That would of course be an obvious possibility, but so far the reports from the police are that it was a fake uniform and ID.
@stuckinred: I know the area but don’t have any friends there, they’re mostly in Oslo plus one in Bergen.
wrb
Shorter version of the coming right-wing meme:
“See, we were right all along. Everyone needs a gun to protect themselves from the likes of us”
Citizen_X
@stuckinred: He had to be using a fully automatic weapon, right? How easy is it to get one of those in Norway? Maybe he actually was a cop.
ETA: WARNING! PURE SPECULATION!
PurpleGirl
I feel sorry for the parents/families of all the wounded and murdered.
Sort of OT but… In the 1970s I had a Norwegian pen pal. Haven’t written to him in many years but when things happen in Norway I think of him. (He was from Lillehammer and was a few months from leaving the army and then starting college when he asked for some US pen pals so he could practice his English. I believe he now lives in Oslo.)
stuckinred
Citizen_X
No, remember Va Tech was done with one each 22 and 9mm semi-auto pistols and he shot 57 people.
Ol' Dirty DougJ
I’m hearing the shooter looked Norwegian, that he’s in custody, and that police believe he is linked to the
shootingsbombings. As of now, I think it’s quite unclear who did this.stuckinred
Ol’ Dirty DougJ
You mean linked to the bombings.
licensed to kill time
On CNN Int’l they are saying the shooter-dressed-as-a-policeman was able to draw people to him by saying he was there to protect them after the bombing in Oslo.
So awful.
trollhattan
BBC reporting nine, perhaps ten shooting victims confirmed so far. Here’s hoping the larger figures used earlier are incorrect.
JGabriel
@Ed Marshall:
Possible, yes. One would hope that it is not more likely.
.
Norwonk
According to the Norwegian news, the arrested man may be responsible for the bomb as well. Utoya is less than an hour’s drive from Oslo, and a man dressed in a police sweater was seen at the scene shortly before the explosion. He seems to be tall and blond, and is known to the police. We could be talking about the proverbial “angry lone nut” here.
Martin
Sounds like the island was the real target and the bomb was more-or-less a distraction. Getting a little skeptical of it being the usual suspects here.
karen marie
The Spy Who Loved Me: I find it hard to believe they’re not related given that AUF is the youth organization affiliated with the PM’s party and his office is in the building that was bombed.
trollhattan
BBC is interviewing the Norwegian foreign minister, who notes having been on the island just yesterday. Could there have been an assasination angle as well?
Norwonk
The AUF summer camp on Utoya is an annual affair and is extremely popular among the young Labour members. The prime minister was scheduled to speak their tomorrow, and former PM Gro Harlem Brundtland had just left the island when the attack started. You could definitely see this as an attack on the Labour Party.
Nethead Jay
Live from Police HQ: At least 10 dead on UtĂžya. Reason for suspected link between the bombing and shooting: A suspicious person of the same description in a fake police uniform was observed close to the bombing site. They’re saying it’s definitely a fake, not a real police officer.
JGabriel
@Chris:
I don’t understand the distinction people make between “islamist terrorists” and “right-wing extremists”. Islamic terrorists are right-wing extremists — a subset, to be sure, but no less right-wing or extremist for that.
I get why other right-wing extremists make the distinction, but why do we go along with it? Seems counter-productive to me.
Edited To Add: All we know at this point is that the targets were a Labor youth group and a Labor government. That seems to indicate an anti-Labor right-wing orientation for the attackers — with no conclusive indications yet whether it’s of the religious or nationalist variant of the right-wing.
.
stuckinred
BBC may say 10 but a Norwegian News agency says 20-30
Stillwater
I’m wondering if there’s a Rupert Murdoch connection.
jl
@150
” He seems to be tall and blond, and is known to the police. We could be talking about the proverbial âangry lone nutâ here. ”
the ‘and known to the police’ part really stands out. So, looks like we will know something definite soon.
If it is a homegrown nutcase, then we will hear ignorant nonsense about the oppressive s o s h u l i s m of Scandinavia driving the population mad and we can’t let that happen here. But lone nutcases doing horrible things have happened everywhere, since forever, unfortunately.
And Norway is s o s h u l i s t in the same way Alaska is: large oil revenues combined with a small population and a government willing to capture and distribute some of said large revenues.
I hope that a lone insane person is all there is too it. It’s horrible enough a tragedy as it is.
MTiffany
@129
If it looks like it is right-wing extremists, then it’s obviously a false-flag operation perpetrated by evil lefties looking to discredit The Right. I can hear Bill-O now: “How far of a stretch is it to go from murdering innocent babies in the womb to murdering their own teenagers? Not much if you ask me. Besides, these were the teenage children of sochulists sent to an indoctrination camp. In their eyes, it’s just more martyrs for the cause.”
stuckinred
jl
and EVERYBODY will try to take advantage of it to promote whatever they think.
Jewish Steel
@Norwonk: And is Norwegian Labour similar to British Labour?
Nethead Jay
@Norwonk
Damn, you could be right.
What channel are you watching?
jl
@162 I’m not Norwonk, and don’t even claim to be a norwonk. But I think Norwegian Labor party is a very mainstream social democratic party in the Scandinavian mold. Recently into neoliberal reforms to increase economic efficiency. I think quite a bit more straightforward and honest than recent gyrations of Blair style UK Labor.
I would be interested to hear what Norwonk or netheadJay have to say.
MTiffany
@159
[snark]”Just another reason why we need more guns and less mental healthcare.”[/snark]
Norwonk
@Jewish Steel:
More or less (though the Brits have moved a bit further to the right in later years). They are certainly moderate, centrist social democrats.
slag
@JGabriel:
Hard to disagree with this.
trollhattan
BBC:
Gotta ask: is there a Norwegian radio personality named Ole Limbaugh to stir up the locals?
El Tiburon
Awful. Yes.
But do we see these same type of posts with titles like “Awful” every single time a NATO or US or allied bombing kills a few brown people?
No.
Yeah it’s awful. It’s all awful. But why do we give this one such deference? How many Muslims died today in drone attacks? Seven dead? Go talk to an Iraqi or Afghani about how wonderful that would be.
Jewish Steel
@Norwonk:
@jl:
Thanks. That kind of context is helpful.
stuckinred
El Tiburon
who is we ?
licensed to kill time
From Guardian liveblog:
9.07pm: On Twitter runehak, who works for the Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation, says:
News agency NTB says police do NOT think this is international terrorism. #osloexpl #oslobomb #whys
and then
Nationen also writes police think its a local variant directed at the current political system. http://j.mp/o6QQSP #osloexpl #oslobomb #whys
jl
@169 @171
I would like to know who is we too.
What is with this parsing of grammar and word choice to snoop purported subtexts for claims of grand and outrageous politically incorrect inconsistencies? It’s BS.
There has been plenty of ‘awful’ in Cole’s posts on drone bombing, if you bother to read the post as well as the headline. So what, if Outrage takes top billing in the title?
Outrage takes top billing in my book for a drone bombing, since I, as taxpayer, am responsible, even though indirectly. I am not responsible for what a lone nutcase does half way around the world.
OK, now people can go to work and find multiple subtle inconsistencies in what I wrote that point out my ideological awfulness in some such way or other.
Amir_Khalid
Latest from the Guardian’a Norway attacks liveblog:
Nethead Jay
@Jewish Steel: As has been said, Labour in NO is mainstream Scandinavian Social Democrats, though perhaps a tiny bit more leftish. Don’t think they’d like being compared to UK Labour under Blair…
drkrick
Completely different logistical and support chains. The cultural similarities are interesting, but the distinction is vital if you’re talking about how to deal with them.
Mjaum
Police are now also saying that they are familiar with the group with which the shooter is involved. Methinks heads shall roll on this.
Amir_Khalid
@El Tiburon:
Western-based news media, staffed mostly with white people, tend to focus on news involving westerners, mostly white people. This is entirely natural, and the rest of us are quite used to it. But it also makes news media not based in the west, and not staffed with mostly white people, all the more necessary and valuable.
Martin
Who is going to write the Poe’s law equivalent here:
stuckinred
Amir_Khalid
It’s the lead on Al Jazeera and has been all day.
Jewish Steel
@Nethead Jay: Right. More classically ‘Labour’ is what I’m picking up. Uncontaminated by the Third Way.
JGabriel
@trollhattan:
My guess is yes. The Prime Minister’s office was attacked, as was a forum he was scheduled to appear in today (IIRC). An assassination attempt seems to be indicated, though, of course, that’s just speculation at this point.
.
Martin
OT:
I don’t see a verbal support for gay marriage in there! Nobama still hates the gheys!
JGabriel
@drkrick:
I’m not. I’m talking about their identical ideologies.
Edited To Add: By identical, I mean — Islamic terrorists are right-wing conservative religious fundamentalists. The only thing that separates them, ideologically, from right-wing conservative Christian fundamentalists are some doctrinal differences and how they spell God.
.
slag
@drkrick:
I like this distinction! Attention WalMart shoppers: You’re suspect!
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Amir_Khalid:
Worth repeating, many times. Thank you.
jl
@181 Not sure what you mean by ‘Third Way’. If you mean minor to moderate neoliberal fiddling with social welfare systems to make more efficient, often by privatization or public/private competition, I think all Scandinavian social democratic parties have been contaminated.
If by Third Way you mean blurring the line between sensible and honest policies to increase efficiency on the one hand, and corporatist rent seeking to smash and grab more of the peoples stuff on the other, then I would agree they have been less contaminated.
Their heritage is pretty straightforward socialism, but that was long ago. Probably about the same as progressive US Democrats who are willing to consider useful neoliberal reforms.
Amir_Khalid
@stuckinred:
That’s as it should be, of course, and does not contradict my point. Which is that people are more likely to be interested in news about people they see as having something in common with themselves. That’s just our natural human bias. A story this big will of course overcome any such parochial biases.
jl
original comment moderated. Balloon Juice will have to make some changes if there is ever a forum on trends in soshul i s m
@181 Not sure what you mean by âThird Wayâ. If you mean minor to moderate neoliberal fiddling with soshul welfare systems to make more efficient, often by privatization or public/private competition, I think all Scandinavian soshul democratic parties have been contaminated.
If by Third Way you mean blurring the line between sensible and honest policies to increase efficiency on the one hand, and corporatist rent seeking to smash and grab more of the peoples stuff on the other, then I would agree they have been less contaminated.
Their heritage is pretty straightforward soshulism, but that was long ago. Today, they are probably about the same as progressive US Democrats who are willing to consider useful neoliberal reforms.
MikeJ
@Martin: Obama could blow Dan Choi on TV and he’d still argue it was proof Obama hates gay people.
jl
@190 MikeJ
He would purposely do a bad job?
Jewish Steel
@jl: I associate Blair’s Labour, and I assure you I am no expert but rather a curious observer, with both of those Third Ways.
Amir_Khalid
@Martin:
I remember that when the DoD would not be able to certify its readiness to implement DADT repeal before Robert Gates’ retirement, certain members of Balloon Juice’s troll community were absolutely certain that this meant Obama was not serious when he signed the repeal.
freelancer
Vote for Gary Johnson then. Sigh.
Strangepork
@189 MikeJ
Dan Choi: “His callous refusal to cup the balls while he worked the shaft is proof of his contempt.”
JGabriel
@drkrick:
On re-reading my previous response, I don’t think it addressed this point properly. Let my try again.
Right-wing conservative Islamic terrorists do not have different logistical and support chains from right-wing conservative extremists; they have different logistical and support chains from OTHER right-wing conservative extremists like white supremacists, or Christian fundamentalists.
Of course different varieties of right-wing extremism have different logistical and support chains. That doesn’t make any of them any less right-wing or extreme — whether they are Islamic, Christian, or nationalist.
.
wrb
The Norwegian PM is coming as close as is possible, without naming us outright, to sayingthat [unlike the US] “Norway will not respond in a cowardly manner and will retain its freedoms
jl
Speaking of betrayal, TPM reports that Nancy Smash and Barney Frank will say yes to some ‘adjustment’ to social incurance programs if they can be supported as good policy (that is my interpretation). So more means testing for Medicare, COLA adjustments for Social Security might be OK. Will draw the line on outright benefit cuts like raising retirment or eligibility age (again, my interpretation).
So, on pure policy grounds, I cannot argue with that they said. As for the hall of mirrors electoral politics part of it, I admit it is beyond me.
Their statements today seem to, in reality, truly isolate the House GOP as the noncompromising extremists.
Will be mildly interested to see whether big US media simply ignores it and continues with their pre arranged scripts, or will their brains melt down, or will they, maybe perhaps, actually report the news.
Linda Featheringill
@Amir_Khalid:
You’re quite right. News reports often focus on “us and ours” and sometimes are funny because of the egocentricity demonstrated.
Nice to see you’re not unduly irritated by it. :-)
Nethead Jay
@wrb: Yeah, that was pretty loud and clear. Nice strong statement from Stoltenberg.
licensed to kill time
Undetonated explosives found on Utoya Island according to police. via CNN Int’l.
Catsy
@Amir_Khalid:
I had a fairly lengthy argument with a number of single-issue purity trolls on DK when that news came out. I recall being basically told that I was a homophobe who thought all gay people were the same and suffered from terminal het privilege because I suggested that their
conspiracy theoryline of argument was just a tad bit unhinged.I showed that to several people who know me in person and they laughed their asses off.
Catsy
@freelancer: Sorry, but Choi really jumped the shark a while ago. There was a time when he was admirable for what he was doing, but at some point over the last couple years he seems to have turned into a complete firebagger and is mostly shooting himself and his cause in the foot every time he opens his mouth or acts out.
Amir_Khalid
@wrb:
Good for him, and good for Norway.
MikeJ
@jl:
Sorry to answer so late. Steve Jobs.
Nethead Jay
Update: Police have raided an apartment in western Oslo belonging to the guy in custody. And a Norwegian TV station are saying they have a name and photo from “central sources”.
JGabriel
Thanks, Jay. Any word on whether the guy is a political terrorist or schizophrenic or what yet?
.
Ed Marshall
@JGabriel:
He is Anders Behring Breivik, his facebook profile has him as a Christian conservative, and what he did was so obviously political to defy the imagination.
Ed Marshall
and I am just absolutely gobsmacked with how the media treated this once they figured out it was a conservative, white, Christian terrorist plot. Now it’s not terrorism! It’s a lone nut, except it’s probably not. It will be two or more crazy people who did something inexplicable.
Comrade Mary
Jesus fucking Christ. BBC reports at least 80 dead on the island.
chopper
holy fucking shit.
someguy
He’s not just a conservative christian extremist, he’s a libertard too apparently.
Will nobody make the conservatives in the west answer for the atmosphere of hatred they have created?
MobiusKlein
Hey @someguy – you were a shit at the first, and still a shit now. Gotta turn 80 dead Norwegians into a thing about JC’s choice of co-bloggers.
Mjaum
Those are not eighty dead Norwegians. Those are eighty (so far found!) norwegian children in the ages of 15 to 18.
According to Obama, Incitement to Terrorist acts is a crime worthy of death without trial (see Anwar al-Awlaki).
Under these guidelines, we, the people of Norway, demand and require the immediate extradition of Sarah Palin, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, and every other traitorous american asshole who thinks playing with fire is good fun.
We will probably accept just their heads.
BattleCat
In a 12 hour period, comment #1 went from “incredibly offensive” to “spot-on.”
I used those words myself, by the way, so they’re imminently quotable.
Yutsano
@Mjaum:
Your offer intrigues me. Can we bargain on some lingonberries too?