President Barack Obama, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta, and Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Adm. Mike Mullen certified Friday that the U.S. military is prepared to accept openly gay and lesbian service members, and that doing so will not harm military readiness, according to the White House.
Under a bill passed last year that set up a process for repealing the controversial “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy, all three men needed to sign a certification that confirms the military’s ability to accept the integration of openly gay and lesbian troops.
A 60-day waiting period will now begin before the repeal is fully implemented.
Yeah, but we’re tired of hearing about Lily Ledbetter DADT and if Obama really cared about gay people, he would use the bully pulpit and get rid of the 60 day waiting period. I’m not lifting a finger to get him re-elected.
asiangrrlMN
You know, Cole. One can be proud of what Obama has done on this issue (I am) and still not like what he has to say about same-sex marriage. I understand that you are venting at the queer poutragers, but maybe you could give it a break once in awhile. There are plenty of queer activists who are firmly in Obama’s corner and are vocal in voicing said support.
ETA: It’s gets old that every fucking time you post about queer issues, you add something like this. Every time.
freelancer
Anybody wanna stick a microphone in John McCain’s face and get his reaction on the record? Anyone?
kindness
John has now joined the Jane Hamsher brigade….
dr. bloor
Well, at least the news doesn’t completely suck today. Let’s just hope President Norquist doesn’t get the
Khmer RougeRepublican Caucus members to sign pledges to reinstate it.Pat
Keep mocking those DFHs, seems to be working out well.
Zifnab
Meh. I hear this a lot, and it disappoints me every time. If a candidate screams and hollers and stomps his feet and says he hates gays with a firey passion, then votes at every opportunity for pro-gay legislation and exploits every opportunity to forward gay rights, I’ll be more than happy to give him a pass.
I honestly don’t care what Obama says to the press about his personal feelings on gay marriage or gay rights. So long as his agenda remains gay-friendly, he’s gay-ok.
gbear
What asiangrrlMN said. Every time. It is getting old.
Trurl
This is such good news that I’ve completely forgotten how upset I was this morning by his being about to cut Social Security.
desraye
Did you actually read the poll?
Jennifer
asiangrrrl – I’d agree if Obama saying “I support same-sex marriage” would change anything at all. Unfortunately, that’s not something he can do without either favorable court rulings or congressional action. WRT to the first, his DoJ has filed briefs in pertinent cases arguing that DOMA is unconstitional. WRT to the second, ain’t gonna happen, and if he used said bully pulpit to announce his full-throated support, about all it would accomplish is a massive GOP turn-out-the-vote effort replete with ads about how Obama’s gonna force your church to gay-marry anyone who wants to be gay-married, and lots of others beside, which is gonna piss off God and make him smite both your church and everyone who goes there.
What I’m saying is: principles can better be gauged by actions rather than words. If the words aren’t helpful for moving the issue forward, and in this case, they aren’t and in fact could set it back, there’s no use saying them. I’d prefer actions anyway, which is what Obama has given us w/r/t gay rights.
Dennis SGMM
Speaking as someone who served in perhaps the butchest arm of our military (USN), hooray! One of the saddest things I did as a senior NCO was to hear the confessions of gay men who had joined the Navy for the best of reasons and who found life in the service impossible because of the Navy’s policy and the institutionalized slurs against gays in general. “What, you mean you can’t do it? Are you a fuckin’ queer?” was a point of departure in the navy of the Sixties.
I could give a fuck less about the when or even the why of this advance. It’s a Good Thing and I hope that it will be taken as such.
Emerald
@Pat #5
Uh huh. And then there’s this.
The head of Gallup can’t understand why Obama’s polls are so high.
LanceThruster
I hope that the military personnel dismissed because of DADT can either be reinstated (if they choose) and/or have their discharges reclassified.
elisabeth
Wow! People are pissy today.
Thank you, Mr. President, Secretary Panetta, and Admiral Mullen. If I wasn’t too old maybe the Navy would take me back.
Ross
I am a gay man and I like what Obama has to say about gay marriage. Why? Because the point is to create a framework whereupon gay people themselves can make their stories heard. “We are the ones we’ve been waiting for.” Yes? Obama has set the stage, turned up the lights, and flipped the camera on. Our turn.
I think John’s comments will get old when certain emoprog gay activists stop spouting douchetarded nonsense. They haven’t. And long as they do the media will flock to them (e.g. douchenozzel in chief dan choi will be on CNN tonight).
I think Elizabeth Warren’s recent interview with Rachel Maddow is quite instructive on this point. Take the fight to trenches. Or, to quote Rep. John Lewis at the HRC Atlanta dinner, “keep your eyes on the prize.”
Turgidson
Better yet, I’m going to team up with James Dobson to inform the world how Obama is the biggest enemy of LGBT rights, like, ever, and only a brainwashed Obot can’t see that.
Anya
One more step toward our continues march to a more tolerant nation.
Also, too, what asiangrrIMN said.
Rome Again
This is all just a symbolic gesture. I mean, since the waiting period ends AFTER August 2nd, gays in the military won’t have a country to serve anyway. We’re ALL going down now!
/Firebagger
Pat
@Emerald #11
Yeah, I’m glad I got that ketchup with my shite sandwich at lunch today. Almost puked.
James E. Powell
@asiangrrlMN:
I get what you’re saying here, really I do. But, like Cole (I think), I don’t understand why it’s “plenty” and not “all” GLBT activists. I don’t understand why they aren’t saying, “With all his faults this is the only president in the history of the country who ever publicly went to bat for us. We need to do everything we can to make sure he gets re-elected.”
Violet
I wonder how many Republicans are going to make this a campaign issue. I suspect almost none. It’s over and even the Republican base is becoming pretty uninterested in turning back the clock.
elisabeth
@LanceThruster
My discharge was classified as honorable and didn’t interfere with my disability. Not sure about others.
rob in dc
I love how winning on one issue that in the grand scheme of things is so tangential and insignificant give Obama a pass on the shit storm he has already unleashed on this country.
Guess what Cole, if Obama rallied congress to pass a federal bill mandating all states to offer gay marriage it still would not make up for his actions regarding Wall St. The gay issue is just not that important ultimately relative to the whole goddamned economy and the direction its going in. I’m sick of hearing this shit trumpeted by democratic hacks while we are hovering on an unemployment rate of 15% in reality and Obama’s next order of business is patent reform and trade deals. Obama owns this unemployment rate now, and he is going to own this next dip in the long depression we have been experiencing too. Lets see how hes doing when the official unemployment rate is climbing up to 10% next year and the unofficial one is near 20%.
Then us progressives will have the last laugh. Haha our country is dying, yay!
rob in dc
I love how winning on one issue that in the grand scheme of things is so tangential and insignificant give Obama a pass on the shit storm he has already unleashed on this country.
Guess what Cole, if Obama rallied congress to pass a federal bill mandating all states to offer gay marriage it still would not make up for his actions regarding Wall St. The gay issue is just not that important ultimately relative to the whole goddamned economy and the direction its going in. I’m sick of hearing this shit trumpeted by democratic hacks while we are hovering on an unemployment rate of 15% in reality and Obama’s next order of business is patent reform and trade deals. Obama owns this unemployment rate now, and he is going to own this next dip in the long depression we have been experiencing too. Lets see how hes doing when the official unemployment rate is climbing up to 10% next year and the unofficial one is near 20%.
Then us progressives will have the last laugh. Haha our country is dying, yay!
Pat
@Violet – right, which is the only reason Obama now supports the repeal. Finger, meet wind. “Follow the breeze, grasshopper.”
aimai
This would give me hope for everything, if anything could. But at this point in time, watching Boehner get everything he dreamed of and more, I simply don’t have any hope.
aimai
capt
It just goes to show that it’s never too late to do the right thing.
And the work is never done, we can never rest, the future is only better if we make it so.
Tag – you’re it (Thom Hartmann)
MAJeff
Anybody wanna stick a microphone in John McCain’s face and get his reaction on the record? Anyone?
For some reason, I read that as “John McEnroe” and couldn’t figure out what a retired tennis player and annoying sports commentator had to do with all this. He’d still probably be more interesting and informed than McCain.
Dennis SGMM
@elisabeth:
Even during my day, the worst that the Nav would do was give a gay sailor an Administrative Discharge. That was non-prejudicial and it allowed a person to collect any rights and bennies for which they were eligible.
MattR
Seems like the appropriate place to offer congratulations and best wishes to anyone getting married in New York on Sunday.
elisabeth
You people are fucking nuts.
I’m outta here. Thanks for fucking up a big day for those of us to whom this is a huge deal.
Violet
@Pat:
Except he called for it as a candidate for President in 2008.
Wee Bey
Professional poutrage: It’s what’s for breakfast, elevensies, second breakfast, etc.
Gin & Tonic
The “only reason”? Really? I seem to recall Obama campaigned on working for repeal, then actually worked for it, and has succeeded. Is it so hard to say “thank you”?
I guess I don’t get it. Since I’m a hetero and too old for military service it’s kind of irrelevant anyway, but it seems he did pretty much what he promised he would do when he was running for President.
SiubhanDuinne
@Jennifer #9:
Thank you. Well said.
Straight female here, older demographic, no military connections, but I for one am very pleased this is happening. Thanks to the President, the military, and the new SecDef (and his predecessor) for their due diligence and for signing off on repeal at the earliest opportunity.
Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen
What was DADT?
OK, I’ll save that one for 60 days.
Just want to make sure you’re aware the “Other things are more important” talking point in re: Civil Rights is excessively stale. My mom heard this tripe back in the 60’s.
But since you raised the issue, please tell us what economic conditions are favorable to advancing the rights of citizens? You can just use the unemployment rate if that’s easier. 5%? 3%?
Frankensteinbeck
I’m a little with AG here. Honestly, I think ‘Obama hates the gays’ is a meme with so little force behind it, it’s not worth the sarcasm. Yeah, we got some bitching for awhile, but I just don’t hear it anymore.
As rob and particularly Trurl remind us, the derision needs to be pointed at people who are so far outside the grasp of reality that they think Obama *wants* to cut the social safety net. At this point, if someone brings up Simpson-Bowles and is serious in any way, can we just assume they’re like a birther and are so hung up on their conspiracy theory logic they can’t be reasoned with?
Jennifer
Every time this issue is discussed and the inevitable “but Obama sold us down the river on this other issue” is thrown out there, I’m reminded of how, when I was a teenager, my parents and I never could arrive at an agreement to get me a car. They insisted that it was because every time they listed their concerns about it, I would start shrieking about how they never bought me a pony when I was little. But I know it was REALLY because I was secretly adopted, and they didn’t love me as much as their real kids.
FlipYrWhig
I’m so disillusioned I’m already prepared to dismiss the _next_ achievement!
greylocks
Wow. Repealing DADT. That affects what percentage of the population?
It doesn’t even affect most LGBTs.
Oh, and there’s also the shitty health care reform, which means health insurance my family can’t afford is cheaper but still unaffordable, in part because two of us CAN’T FIND A FUCKING JOB.
I’m glad DADT was finally repealed after much needless dawdling but this does not make Obama a good president. He otherwise has totally sucked.
Catsy
@asiangrrlMN:
Whereas what gets old for me is being unable to point to concrete accomplishments like this without having to–every time–fend off yeah-buts from one-note absolutists and purity trolls who seem to be incapable of recognizing the existence of any position in between dedicated homophobia and fanatical single-issue devotion to equal rights.
To be clear, I’m not saying that’s what you’re doing. At all. I’m pointing out that John’s pre-emptive swipes at the purity troll wing of the LGBT movement are a reasonable response to said wing’s knee-jerk response of “if Obama *really* cared about gay rights he’d…” The people doing that are idiots, and deserve to have their idiocy highlighted–especially when the topic is an accomplishment like this that makes their posturing look as foolish and short-sighted as it is.
ETA: And as Exhibit A, I give you @greylocks.
gwangung
That’s a shitty thing for a so-called progressive to say.
Pat
@Violet 29 –
Oh you don’t really want to go there do you?
Anya
aimai @ 23 ~~ Did I miss something? Did the WH reach an agreement with Boehner? I was in meetings all day and the little time I had, was spent on talking to a really distraught cousin who was attacked (not physically) at work because she’s outwardly Muslim (wears hijab) by some bigots who are angry by the tragic events in Norway. So I have no idea what’s happening.
General Stuck
DADT is so like yesterdays news. Wait till Obama sells out gramdma again. Obama has officially stated he wants DOMA repealed. That is all that is required, imo. He is not your personal therapist or priest. He is the president of this country, all of it. It was America that caused DOMA, and only America can repeal it. Obama can line up the stars for that, to a degree, and be ready to sign it. He is entitled to state his personal opinions though, even if done for the safety of political correctness and political survival.
I would not trade a second Obama /dem term for a full personal heartfelt frontal assault by him, on DOMA, or about anything else.
gwangung
Oh, that reminds me.
I think this repeal is going to stick BECAUSE of the so-called needless dawdling.
Otherwise, you’re just arguing “style points”—which is, to me, a shitty argument to use.
CaptainFwiffo
While I agree with our host, the 60 day waiting period is pretty damn fucking stupid. Not in a human-rights way, in a bumbling, plodding, incompetent bureaucracy sorta way. I mean, what’s the point in dragging it out?
It’s not like withdrawing troops from Iraq or something, where there’s some big logistical hurdle complications. It’s just a matter of… not discharging people. However complicated that is, wasn’t that what the last several months of whatever they’ve been doing was about?
Dennis SGMM
@rob in dc:
Yeah, and how about Lyndon Johnson waiting until nineteen-fucking-ninety-four to push through the Civil Rights Act? Motherfucker didn’t even have the decency to pull the troops out of Vietnam while he did so. Clearly, LBJ was a loser asshole who deserves no credit for doing the right thing because he didn’t do all of the other right things at the same time.
I am far from being a being a fan of Obama but, criticism like yours is far from being worthy of consideration.
Catsy
@rob in dc:
Yeah, you know what? Some moron posted a diary on DK to that effect earlier. It’s a false choice that was mind-bogglingly stupid there, and it doesn’t get better coming from you.
john b
@Pat at #40:
where, the part where you made something up and when called on it, tried to change the subject?
Violet
I’m so glad this horrible policy is gone. It did no good and much harm. It wasn’t good for the people directly involved, service members and their families, and it wasn’t good for us as a country.
Maybe it didn’t happen as fast as people wanted. Maybe President Obama didn’t say the exact right words. But he worked to repeal it and he signed it into law. And now it’s being implemented. Gays and lesbians will be treated as the equal service members that they have always been, as they should be.
That’s good for them, good for the military, and good for us as a country. It’s a good thing and I’m proud my country has taken this step.
Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen
And desegregating the military didn’t affect most African-Americans. However, people do laud it as a major milestone in the battle for Civil Rights. Pity they didn’t have you to set them straight.
Roger Moore
@James E. Powell:
Because some activists care more about attention than winning. When mainstream politicians take up their cause and actually succeed in accomplishing something, the activists get bumped out of the limelight. The only way they can get attention is to swing even further to the extreme and attack their notional allies for insufficient purity. This is hardly unique to gay activists, BTW.
FlipYrWhig
That’s the M.O., though. Argue that the good stuff was styled poorly, took too long, or was ridiculously easy, then get back to complaining about the bad stuff. Then when something bad gets handled, throw it in the pile with the inconsequential good stuff. Repeat until you’re in a Slough of Despond.
Geoduck
Congratulations, Mr. President. Well done. Now, get back to work. Don’t slash Social Security.
jeff
John is more upset about the way gay people have criticized him than I have ever been about being the victim of hate because I’m gay. I feel for him, though: there but for the grace of God etc.
Just kidding, John. I appreciate all you do, but thought a little ribbing was in order.
Pat
@john b @47
Explain in non-wonky terms why it took 2 years and six months for the Commander in Chief to order this.
RossInDetroit
Clear now?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I’ll stop mocking firebaggers when they stop leading with their chins.
Splitting Image
Actually, the status of gays in the military is very important when you consider how many military bases operate in red states. Some of the places with the most severe laws against gays have a disproportionately large military presence.
If the military becomes a place where young gay kids can be out and proud, even when they are stationed in, say, Oklahoma, it will drastically undercut the arguments used in those states against gay rights in general.
If the military were a less prominent part of the U.S. culture, DADT wouldn’t be as big a deal, but being what it is, I wouldn’t underestimate how important an achievement this is.
eemom
@ Anya 41
No, there is no deal yet. Aimai just appears to have joined the growing chorus of doomsayers that are POSITIVE Obama is going to cave.
pattonbt
As Biden, I believe said about something else “this is a BIG fucking deal!”. Any forward movement on social justice issues is great progressive accomplishment.
The more the normalization of LGBT the better. The more social justice issues are won, the better. It makes the corners the fundy assholes live in darker and more hateful. It marginalizes the religious zealots further and further into the political backwater. And that is always awesome.
This policy doesn’t affect me or anyone I know but it is still awesome. And I am now more optimistic than ever that DOMA will be overturned and within a decade (I know that isn’t fast enough, but still would be great) “gay” marriage will be legal across the US.
The right wing is losing. Unfortunately, the war is far from over and we are losing some very painful short term battles and we will lose many more. But the more we advance on social justice issues, the more we can focus on the real issues at hand.
Edit: I did not mean my last statement to minimize this accomplishment by saying other “real issues at hand”. I meant other equally important issues.
john b
explain why took until the launch date of windows 7 for the military to adopt windows vista
Linnaeus
I’m glad the policy of DADT is over, and I’m glad for the efforts of everyone involved in ending it.
Trollenschlongen
But this DADT news is wonderful, with the caveat that it took two years longer than it had to.
Jennifer
@jeff 56 – that’s what gets me, though. The “purists” who are insisting that unless Obama hosts a prime-time news conference to announce that he loves gay marriage so much that he’s proposed to Joe Biden for the most part are not gay. From what I’ve seen, most gay activists who are gay haven’t taken that stance – it’s the gay activists who AREN’T gay but want to prove how much more supportive of gay rights than the rest of us are who have.
FlipYrWhig
@ Roger Moore:
I don’t think it’s that exactly. I think instead that people who consider themselves “activists” are very concerned about complacency, so you’re never really supposed to stop or be satisfied, because there’s always another crusade. IMHO that outlook is in many ways admirable but in many other ways a recipe for permanent frustration.
Violet
@Pat:
What does that have to do with DADT repeal? If you want to talk about any of Obama’s other campaign promises and whether or not he did or did not keep them, this is not the thread for that discussion.
LAC
I am pleased about this development and pretty fucking tired and fed up with the endless whining, bitching moaning by the assortment of idiots that call themselves progressives. I swear, if black folks had the assortment of pissy asses that post here as part of the civil rights movement, we would still be drinking out of separate water fountains. No wonder people do not listen to you or consider you a base – you are worthless. Particularly during this debt ceiling debate – rumors flying and you sad fucks are already having the vapors and screeching about betrayal.
RossInDetroit
Ironically, it may be the GOP’s last ditch stand on the debt ceiling and Wicked Uncle Rupert’s problems that allowed DADT repeal to happen now. In a normal, boring non-election summer this policy change would be splattered on page One and conservatard cranial matter would be decorating the walls. But there’s so much going on right now that this issue doesn’t rate much ink by comparison.
Roger Moore
@Pat:
Because Obama, even as Commander in Chief, didn’t have the legal power to change the policy unilaterally. It was a law passed by Congress and signed by a previous President, so it could only be overturned by having Congress pass another law. SATSQ.
Hal
Sigh. So two + years of “just get the damn thing repealed already” gives way to “Oh well, big deal. Now lets talk about the other reason I hate Obama.”
God I hate progressives sometimes.
steviez314
Unless he makes this fucking sun less fucking hot, I’m sitting 2012 out.
RalfW
It may actually be time to retire – or at least put away in the stable – the “Obama hates gays” snark, John. Not that I don’t love snark, but this seems really warmed-over at this point.
ETA: or what asiangirl said right up top.
FlipYrWhig
@ RossInDetroit : Along with the new policy to treat contraception as preventive healthcare. Boy howdy would that be a froth-and-sputter occasion almost any other year.
patroclus
It is SO typical of Obama to get rid of DADT at exactly the time he’s gonna stop paying the military!
kindness
Thoughts for the moment…
Happy about the DADT repeal. (let some one else) Screw the haters.
Pissed about the snatching defeat from the jaws of victory over the debt ceiling. I still think a 14th Amendment stance would have been better politics & better results.
Anya
eemom @ 61 ~~ thanks for clarifying. My heart sank when I read that because Aimai was not in the hair-on-fire crowd so I thought it was an actual act of betrayal rathar than a perceived one.
Pat
Violet – the point being that candidate Obama’s pronouncements were/are not predictive of anything he does as President Obama.
OzoneR
you don’t like that he says we need to get rid of DOMA?
OzoneR
Oh no, only 70 percent of liberals are happy, what should we do?!?!
Linda Featheringill
@elisabeth:
You know, this is getting old. No matter who does what and/or who says what in support of gay issues, it’s never enough and if the babyish pouting isn’t honored and kowtowed to, rage ensues. It happens every time. And it’s getting old.
I am bisexual. That doesn’t make me an expert but I do sort of have a foot in both camps, so to speak. But I will tell you this: If you aren’t grownup enough to interact with a mixed group, go and play in another sandbox.
kthxbai
pattonbt
@Pat: Wow, now that is some Grade A stupidity there. So if they are not predictive, then why do the haters hold him to ones he’s broken? He’s kept some, reneged on others. Quell Surpise! A politician doesn’t keep all his promises. I must get to the fainting couch!
Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen
This is partially it. Some of it is people who just don’t understand how things work. Some of it is people who will NEVER EVER be happy, even if they get TWO ponies.
But basically, it isn’t reasonable to expect all of ANY group to be 100% behind Obama. I mean, he doesn’t even have 100% support from African-Americans.
RalfW
Um, have you been hanging around the left for what, 5 minutes? I don’t expect to ever, ever see a unified left on any issue. If you want unity, you gotta go with the Father Knows Best party.
We get stupid pissing matches on our side, but at least difference is tolerated (and appropriately mocked).
(I know, I just said stop mocking a minute ago…but there is appropriate, and then there’s tired tropes)
cynickal
Considering last time John did bother to lift a finger he broke his collar bone and dislocated his shoulder, this is probably for the best.
Rome Again
@Violet:
Michele Bachmann certainly won’t drop this ball. She gloms onto gay issues as if they are the only thing God cares about.
askew
I’ve just about had it with the netroots lately. How fucking hard is it to just say “thank you”? Seriously, this is a major accomplishment that has been on the progressive policy wish for 17 years. Yet instead of thanking the President and other Dems for getting it done, we get needless whining about other issues. As progressives, we need to celebrate our wins. It does the movement or the Democratic Party zero good to downplay our accomplishments.
That is a huge progressive accomplishment and the netroots predictably has ignored it.
Pat
@71 Roger Moore
QED, smart ass.
OzoneR
Thank you for pointing out why Democrats will never fall on their sword for progressives, because there will always be a catch.
Dems to Progressives; Your harakiri wasn’t dramatic enough!
rob in dc
@ Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen
I’m not saying the march of civil rights is not important, I am extremely happy that DADT has been repealed and even more importantly I am happy at how effective LGBT organizations have been at educating the public that LGBT people deserve to be treated with equality and respect. There has been more progress on this issue in the last ten years than I could have ever imagined.
But my response was directed at Cole, who instead of saying “yay DADT is done good job Obama for that one” has to take the time to scold the so called professional left or poutragers or whatever the fuck your calling us now. And you know what if thats how its gonna be than I will happily point out to you that independent on whether DADT is an important issue or not I think we have a point when we have record unemployment rates and poverty in half a century. When homelessness is up and people are starving. The economy isn’t an abstract concept, its people suffering every day because Obama didn’t have the balls to do what needed to be done in 2009 and instead got on his knees and gave the financial elite the blowjob of their lives.
I almost feel bad for Obama that these people are such narcissistic sociopaths that they proceeded to turn on him instantly anyway. Almost.
boss bitch
@Violet:
Pat has been reading AMERICAblog. They are part of the bunch that’s spreading that bull shit lie that Obama never wanted it or never wanted it until everyone else wanted it.
Tom
So we get some good news on the LGBT front and instead of just reporting it or commenting on the news itself, John takes a shot at the gays who piss him off. Resulting comments section is full of “progressives” going off on how they hate progressives, that gay rights aren’t all that important, and man, when are those gays going to stop pouting.
What a proud progressive moment for this site.
Cat Lady
Every other person in these GLBT threads appears to have daddy issues. I’m so fucking sick of always finding progressive turds in the liberal punch bowl.
Mnemosyne
Because “commander in chief” is not the same thing as “dictator.”
It really creeps me out sometimes how many ostensible progressives are upset because Obama is not acting like Kim Jong-Il.
Violet
@Pat:
But you claimed that the only reason Obama supported the repeal was the “breeze”:
And then I pointed out that in fact he had supported the repeal of DADT as a candidate.
So in this case he said he was going to support the repeal of DADT and he has followed through. His actions have nothing to do with the “breeze” or “wind” as you claimed.
Whatever he has done or not done in other cases is not relevant.
pattonbt
One more time before I go home for the day….
Awesome news!
ruemara
Damn, y’all need some fricking ice cream and a vodka or something. 1. I’m happy for all the marines I know, who are all gay for some reason. 2. I get what you’re saying asiangrrl and you have my internet love, but there are far too many “activists” who have serious ODS. I don’t think of them as activists, because they don’t do much but pontificate but whatever. 3. goddamn people. laws+reality+low information. It ain’t just president says so so it will happen. And all the whinging about SS/Medicare/Medicaid cuts and no one, not one person could tell you what sort of cuts, how it would be done, etc. etc. This means they don’t know. If it’s cuts to Part D, I’d celebrate. It’s money pit. If there’s an extension of benefits that would be under ACA to meet a shortfall if the eligibility age was raised, then I’d like to see the plan. Don’t have that, then WTF are you bothering people about? Freaking out and getting your hate on isn’t a plan. It’s a marketing scheme.
OzoneR
Is this a joke?
Roger Moore
@FlipYrWhig:
There’s probably some truth to that, but I don’t think it’s the whole story. Fighting against complacency doesn’t require gratuitous swipes at your allies, just rallying the troops for the next big fight.
I think a bigger issue is what happens when it looks like you’re starting to run out of big fights. Beyond a certain point, every victory makes the activists just a little bit less relevant. The hard-core activists may see their calls as fighting complacency, but more and more they’ll wind up being an attempt to avoid irrelevance.
aimai
eemom,
I consider a situation in which we give up 2.4 trillion in cuts for a pro forma lifting of the debt ceiling to pay our just debts to be a huge loss. Not a cave. Just a massive loss.
aimai
Stooleo
Huh? There is a deal? I don’t think so.
Yes, 12 months of the house Republicans going through the impeachment process will be great. There will be a lot of job creation during that time.
Monala
@ CaptainFwiffo #47: According to the Boston Globe, here are some of the reasons for the 60-day waiting period:
OzoneR
Flip didn’t say they were GOOD at advocacy.
Hal
@ Pat
You are aware that argument has been promoted 18 billion times already? Obama said he wanted Congress to do it, not an executive order, which would have only lasted until the next President. The law is repealed, it’s done.
BombIranForChrist
He knows he has your vote, Cole, regardless of what he does. That’s why he feels safe enough to capitulate on the budget. There’s nothing he can do to lose your vote because OMG Palin. Just as long as he stays just to the Left of Palin, he’s guaranteed your vote. That’s why he ignores you when you screech about his bad policies. You enable him.
Anyway, I try not to feed the trolls that troll their own site, but it had to be done.
gwangung
Because you don’t know how to make a bureaucratic machinery work, particularly when a large part of senior management is resistant to change and will sabotage it at every opportunity.
In short, you are very good at knowing WHAT to change (which is a very, very good thing to know), but are not good at knowing HOW to change it—just issuing a decree isn’t going to do it.
FlipYrWhig
@ Pat : What if issuing an executive order like that would have given conservative Democrats an out on the whole voting for a defense bill that contained DADT repeal thing? Because that was another likely outcome: executive order negating the possibility of legislative repeal. And of course the latter is much more permanent than the former, too.
boss bitch
@OzoneR:
yes, Pat is a joke.
WaterGirl
This is a great day for human rights.
This is a big f-ing deal, and I’m proud that we got here, even if it took 18 years too long.
Jim
John,
First comment here should say it all.
http://my.firedoglake.com/teddysanfran/2011/07/22/dadt-are-we-there-yet/#comment-272256
—
Also, too, we need to fight for our seniors!!! Because they’ve been so helpful on… exactly zero other issues.
Martin
And history has proven almost without exception that if you give Congress the easy way out, they’ll take it and not look back. You can find evidence of that almost daily. An executive order would have meant that DADT would never get repealed.
How has Roe v Wade helped establish federal legislation in support of abortion rights?
Legislation is the goal. It’s what has lasting value.
WaterGirl
If Pat and others who want to re-argue everything wanted to understand the other side of the argument, they would understand it already.
Engaging with them just allows them to shit on this thread and on this great accomplishment. I suggest we ignore them and all the bloggers that are whining about this. We should be having a party about this, and let the people who are unhappy entertain themselves without our help.
Edit: lecture over.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
This is totally awesome and I am very excited about it! I have several friends who served, and this would have made their lives so much better. Now a whole generation of young gay and lebian service members is going to be spared what they went through! Awesome! Totally happy!
Oh, and the whiney, moaning murtles and negative nancy’s can go DIAF. Seriously. You can choke on your fucking pity parade.
Pat
So it’s OK to bomb sovereign countries and assassinate US citizens by executive fiat, but repealing DADT by executive order makes Obama a dictator? Oy vey indeed.
OzoneR
This is why I don’t get all excited about SS and Medicare cuts, they’re going to hurt the people who asked for it.
Xof
No worries, @greylock, President Bachmann will get right on those.
RossInDetroit
Compare the progress on LGBT rights under 2.5 years of BHO to the progress under 8 years of Clinton.
There’s a long long way to go but I like the way we’re finally headed.
Davis X. Machina
@Mnemosyne: It’s human nature.
Watching my students, and my colleagues, I have come to believe we’re hard-wired for monarchy. Maybe not Louis-XIV-divine-right-nation-state monarchy, but most everyone is happy to find a leader who actually cares about this stuff, who goes off and does it, and lets them get on with their lives.
It’s an inertia version of Utilitartianism — what scheme for organizing your polity requires the least expenditure of effort by the greatest number? That’s the one you get.
John Puma
Ha ha. All kidding aside, dumping DADT and DOMA (we can only hope) accomplishes no more than undoing two particularly pernicious and corrosive bills brought to you by the previous Democratic president acting like a Republican.
When Obama dumps NAFTA, the Telecomm act of 1996 and the CFMA (deregulation of OTC derivatives) and also re-instates the Glass-Steagall Act, then we can “move on” to some actual attempts at “progress.”
Note: today apparently Obama said there would be no change in “the war on drugs.”
Rome Again
@CaptainFwiffo:
You don’t like the 60 day waiting period, blame the now deceased Senator Byrd from West Virginia. I’m sure if you go talk to him, he’ll get right on repealing it.
FlipYrWhig
@ BombIran : How does threatening to withhold support actually move the outcome in a progressive direction, though? “If you do X, I will not vote for you.” “Sorry to hear it, but I’ll take you at your word, and worry about getting the vote of the guy standing to your right.”
OzoneR
Good God, no one said that. What they said was Obama shouldn’t do it because it would only be temporary and it would give Congress an out.
Get over yourself, this is why Obama shouldn’t waste political capital on you, you’d never give him credit anyway.
boss bitch
this thread provides examples of why no one listens to the left. fucking pathetic. Obama’s numerous accomplishments get dismissed while pols like Weiner and Kucinich get sloppy wet kisses when they haven’t even done 1/10 of what Obama has accomplished. And they’ve been there longer. Hell, Obama as freshman senator accomplished more than these two.
eemom
@ aimai
but there is no deal yet. None.
FlipYrWhig
“You’re a stupid asshole and I hate you and you never do anything for me and you’re destroying everything I believe in! Also, how come you never call me back?”
Mnemosyne
@ Pat
Yes, clearly it would have been better to make the change through an executive order that could be changed by the next president with a swipe of the pen than it was to make a permanent change that can only be changed through more legislation passed by Congress.
You have heard of the global gag rule, right? And you wanted the rights of GLBT people to be the same kind of political football?
Up next, Pat decides that LBJ should have ended racial discrimination by issuing a series of executive orders rather than pushing all of those silly old laws through Congress. After all, it’s not like Nixon or Reagan would have rescinded those executive orders, amirite?
Linda Featheringill
@Jim:
Would you like to clarify, expand, or perhaps rephrase this statement? I ask because you might not mean what I think you mean.
OzoneR
There was a reason behind it, I read it earlier, something to do with same sex partner recognition and housing.
dead existentialist
I read the title and thought the post would be about farts.
And then Pat showed up, so I wasn’t too far off as it turns out.
Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen
Phone numbers?
Fine, be that way.
Too be serious, and to not joke around in a way that could find my ass homeless and single: To all of you who think this took too long, please read up on any of America’s other Civil Rights movements. This shit takes a long assed time and I for one am just happy I’m alive to see it.
I honestly didn’t think I’d be around (or at least alert) for the repeal, never mind the advancement of equal marriage rights.
OzoneR
The Grand Bargain is dead, so you can stop shitting yourselves now.
boss bitch
@John Puma:
I am going to assume that you forgot to add the word “Congress” and also your plan to get more Lib Dems in Congress. You did forget right?
Linda Featheringill
@OzoneR: #116
How did we ask for it?
Xof
Yeah, it’s a shame we didn’t elect John McCain and Sarah Palin. They would done all of those things in the first 60 days while riding unicorns and handing out free ice cream.
You get a personal Jesus, but you don’t get a personal President.
General Stuck
I will say, if Obama and dems are dumb enough to enact cuts that will affect medicare and SS benefits in a negative way, then it will be a giant loss, that will put granny and gramps on the electoral warpath with a fever in their eyes to punish the party that let it happen, that shouldn’t have.
Otherwise, I have been a fiscal hawk of sorts no matter who was president and what party was, or is in power. I applaud cuts that improve the delivery of entitlements, and make them more fiscally sound for the future, and weed out waste. That is how you protect SS and Medicare. And I have heard nothing that would change bennies, other than possibly a long term extension to the retirement age.
And while I do believe in stimulus spending to stabilize a recession, it is not the be and end all of what is wrong, and what will work to cause nervous, but cash flush companies to start hiring again. It might be, that more attention to paying for what we spend in government, or cutting that spending that doesn’t provide better government service, that those businesses will then get off the fence and jump into the hiring business.
And in case you didn’t hear Obama today, once again reiterate he wants revenue enhancers as well, for the 100th time, then I don’t know where you would consider a better source of info than the horses mouth.
FlipYrWhig
@ boss bitch:
Kucinich I don’t see getting a lot of love. But what about Andrew Cuomo? Huge budget cuts, restrictions on public employee bargaining rights, but a hero because of same-sex marriage. Feingold had his heresies as well, but that didn’t stop the love train.
That relentless seeking after bad news and betrayal is something I can’t quite grasp among supposed lefties and progressives. But, in selected cases, it’s astonishingly prevalent. And, in others, it’s astonishingly absent.
TooManyJens
@Roger Moore: Nope, too wonky. You’re talking about *reality* and all that boring stuff.
OzoneR
The eldery was the one demographic who voted for McCain, they went overwhelmingly for Republicans in 2010. They even voted for Republicans in 2006 after they threatened to privatize SS.
Yes, yes, i know some of you didn’t, but senior citizens appear to be the only demographic holding us back and the moment and we’re supposed to what? protect you from yourselves?
Mnemosyne
So your argument is that, since (in your opinion) acting in concert with NATO is acting like a dictator, he may as well have gone whole-hog and done it for things that you want?
And I’ll worry about al-Awlaki being assassinated when someone actually, you know, tries it. AFAIK, he’s still walking around al Qaeda camps in Yemen in perfect health.
Amanda in the South Bay
right now, I just want to avoid another recession, which means…being pragmatic and having to eat whatever shit sandwich we get out of our Republican controlled House of Representatives. When it comes down to it, I’m just looking for survival, not dissecting the latest rumours and whatnot.
A terribly shitty day for all, it seems.
slag
Am I the only one watching Obama live: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/2011/07/watch_live_obama_statement_at_the_white_house.php?ref=fpblg ?
middlewest
Because congress is stupid. This is a simple fact that many on the left fail to grasp.
Obama succeeded on health care reform and DADT because he has a pretty good strategy for dealing with congressional stupidity. He tells congress to do something, steps back and lets congress figure out all the different ways it can be stupid (this usually takes well over a year), and then he steps in and drags them by the ear to passing a bill. Messy, but it works.
The problem with the debt deal is that he doesn’t have time to let congress work out all its stupid, so I have no idea what strategy he’s following now.
FlipYrWhig
@ Mnemosyne : I still favor letting Bradley Manning out of the brig on the condition that he lead the mission to kill al-Awlaki. It would be a great Kobayashi Maru test for civil libertarian absolutists.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
A terribly shitty day for all, it seems.
No. It is an AWESOME day for the GAYS!! Hooray!
OzoneR
Probably, but I’m sure whatever he says, the firebaggers will be complaining he didn’t say a week from now.
gwangung
And they are, probably, somewhat smarter than the people who elected them.
That, too.
Martin
Nationally, 60+ voters have been reliable Republican voters. If seniors don’t want Republican policies then seniors should stop voting for Republicans.
Obama won CA 61-37. For 18-24 year olds, Obama won 80-18. For 65+, McCain won 50-48. That trend repeated in every state. It repeated in every state in 2010 as well, except that in 2010, there weren’t enough 18-24 year olds voting to overcome the 65+ vote.
In a nutshell:
2008 is what you get when young people vote.
2010 is what you get when young people don’t vote.
Sorry, but elections have consequences.
Roger Moore
@Jim:
So let me get this right: we should let the Republicans have their way on Medicare and Social Security because today’s seniors haven’t been 100% behind the Democrats? Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face! I plan on being old one day, and I want to have an intact Medicare and Social Security when I do. If that means protecting today’s seniors from their alleged bad voting habits, so be it. I’m not going to blow up my own future in a fit of pique.
slag
@OzoneR: True. And then, whatever the firebaggers say, you’ll be complaining that they didn’t say it a week from now. I’m not choosing sides in this increasingly ridiculous conflict.
General Stuck
I am watching the presnits presser, and it sure doesn’t look like some guy about to sell out anything. He dings Boehner for “leaving him at the alter” and not returning his phone calls to. Not backing off revenue demands, one I fucking ota.
FlipYrWhig
@ OzoneR : Or that he said it too late, or with the wrong tone, or that all that he did was say it.
LTMidnight
Seriously, you emo purists need to make up your minds. All we hear from you guys is how Obama is “just like Bush, but then act like that exactly what you want him to act like.
Thus proving you guys never had a problem with Bush issuing executive orders for laws he didn’t like. You have a problem with law he did it for.
Bunch of hypocrites.
Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen
Wait, what was the point of this post?
Thanks, I was forgetting.
(Also a great day for anyone who values equality and all those other American* values.)
*Not to be confused with ReaLAMErican Values(TM) which can be difficult to distinguish from Taliban Values.
Linda Featheringill
@OzoneR: #139
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/11/04/exit-polls-republicans-set-record-numbers/
According to this report, 62% of blue collar voters chose Republican candidates. Are you going to refuse to support labor issues?
OzoneR
Yes
You won’t either way. You might have a better chance if you let Republicans blow it up because then NOBODY will let them near the halls of governing again for a long time, opening up the opportunity to progressives to not only restore it, but make it better.
Martin
Well, this should be interesting. Anyone want to share my Survival Seed bank?
LTMidnight
Pat, I’m going to give you 15 minutes to figure out for yourself why what you just said would have to make sense just to be CONSIDERED stupid.
Starting….. now..
slag
@General Stuck: I have to admit…I’m surprised. Still skeptical. And not thrilled with the process or what little I know of the Grand Bargain. But impressed that Obama is actually laying the smackdown at this moment in time. We’ll see…
OzoneR
Don’t even get me started on that.
I mentioned a while back that the party should evolve itself to a socially liberal, fiscally moderate party because labor demographics are lost, so in short, yeah, sorta.
Labor is dead and it doesn’t look like the working class is in any hurry to build it back again.
MikeJ
@John Puma: Bullshit. Clinton didn’t do DADT, Congress did. It was the compromise position. Clinton was going to do the executive order thing to make it ok for gay people to serve openly, congress said do and we’ll pass a law. They settled on they can serve, but not openly.
General Stuck
Ouch POTUS PISSED
Mary
If I didn’t have other things that need doing I would sit down and count the number of comments actually complaining about Obama and compare it to the number of comments complaining about people who complain about Obama.
Martin
From the same link:
It’s not about refusing to support labor issues or refusing to support preserving entitlement benefits. It’s about wondering why the fuck we’re supposed to work so hard for something when the beneficiaries are unwilling to work for them. Maybe blue collar workers don’t actually want jobs. They sure as fuck vote like they don’t want jobs. Maybe seniors don’t want their benefits, because they also vote that way.
Do you see latinos voting for the nativists or african americans for the racists or gays for the homophobes?
We’re not going to stop supporting these things, but just like Republicans hate the feeling that their taxes are going to crackwhore welfare mom Cadillac t-bone steak young buck gangtas, I fucking hate the feeling that I care about these issues more than the people that reliably go out and vote against them.
OzoneR
#General Struck
Have to be honest, I think POTUS is lying. There is no way Boehner is dumb enough to turn down that offer, there is no way Republicans wouldn’t take it. It’s everything they ever wanted, it would demoralize the left and score them a victory. Republicans aren’t dumb at politics, they’re very smart, it would be like Aaron Rodgers not throwing s single completed pass in a quarter, it just won’t happen.
I think Obama is saying he offered this to position himself as the more reasonable individual. The irony here is he’s probably doing everything the left wants him to do behind closed doors (Boehner is pretty much saying that) but is not willing to admit it publicly because he wants to remain the adult in the room.
Martin
Wait, are you complaining about the people complaining about people who complain about Obama? If so, you need to start a 3rd category.
Oh, and a 4th, I guess. :-P
Roger Moore
@OzoneR:
Get real. This is about like saying the best way to start my remodeling project is to set my house on fire so I can start over from scratch. A more likely scenario is that the Republicans will carry through with the Ryan plan of gutting Social Security and Medicare for young people while preserving it for existing beneficiaries. They’ll suffer very little in the polls and survive well enough to block any attempt to revive benefits for the rest of us.
LanceThruster
@elisabeth – 22. & Dennis SGMM – 29.
Thank you for those bits of information. I wasn’t sure if the discharges were prejudicial in any fashion. I would imagine that before the repeal, it would definitely be a classification that would not allow reinstatement/reenlistment.
Even now, it might be considered that the “offending” party was outside the rules when these were the rules so the new policy might not even be considered applicable to the status of their discharges regardless.
LTMidnight
Seriously. It’s as if the emo moonbat purity brigade had this meeting:
EM1: “Man, we’ve said for months that Obama didn’t want to repeal DADT because he’s a homophobic bigot. Are we even glad that he did it?”
EM2: “yeah, but we don’t want to give him credit for it, do we? How do we handle this?”
EM3: **raises hand*** “… well, we can complain about it taking so long. That seems to work well.”
EM2: “Not really, we end up looking like spoiled children. But give it a try anyway and see what kind of reaction you get.”
EM1: “I say we focus on the ‘selling out on medicare, social security’ routine. That seem hot right now.
ALL: “Sounds good to me”
eemom
I still have hope for my own personal “nuclear option,” which is that the Prez declares a state of emergency, shuts down the a/c in the Capitol and locks the doors. He’d get a clean debt-raising bill out of those tough-talking fucktard p*ssies before you could say 2012.
General Stuck
don’t think so, but I don’t really care if he is. The wingnuts are too fucking nuts to be evaluated in any rational way. Obama wants revenues, that is against
The Church of Grover, and wingnuts all fear the possible wrath of blasphemy to agree to anything resembling a tax increase.
I doubt it is anything more complicated than that.
Tom Hilton
@LanceThruster: Part of the whole DADT repeal is setting up a process for people who were discharged to re-enlist.
Martin
Hmm. This was earlier:
Quite a contrast to this:
I wonder if Boehner just had his Clinton-made-me-sit-in-the-back-of-the-plane moment. That’s quite a stark contrast between someone who seems to not be taking this at all seriously, and someone who is.
Beta Magellan
@OzoneR-165:
I bet he’s telling the truth, and Boehner has to reject the offer since it passed through That One’s lips, and is therefore tainted with evil.
And given that Chaffetz didn’t know that “tabling” a bill in the senate was basically the same as killing it (never served on student council?), I think there’s ample evidence this crop of Republicans is dumb at politics (see also: any midwestern Republican governor).
RossInDetroit
That was some pretty tough talk. I hope it continues behind closed doors. He called out the GOP for their purity pledges and rigidity. We’ll see how they spin that, but their fealty to/fear of the TP-ers isn’t much to cling to when public opinion is against them and the President goes on TV and tells them it’s time to quit screwing around & do the job.
Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen
“Waaah! Angry black man scared us and now we’ll be on the fainting couch for weeks!
slag
@LTMidnight: I’ll be honest again…I was thinking the DADT thing was going to be done today as a sop for liberals while we got the shit kicked out of us on this debt deal. It may have been planned that way but fell through. Or that thinking may have just been the result of my unflagging pessimism. Or it may still be the plan. We’ll see…
Brachiator
@rob in dc:
First of all, human rights is not an abstract concept, either.
Also, you sound like one of those people who are holding a grudge because Obama had the nerve to appoint Wall Streeters to Cabinet posts, did not send corporate execs to Gitmo, and did not nationalize banks. Or something.
But here’s the thing. There is a worldwide financial crisis. A number of nations have tried various remedies. None of them have worked yet.
Now, I am not happy with a lot of Obama’s economic policy, but I have no patience with the progressive fantasy, and it is most definitely a fantasy, that they know exactly what would have rescued the economy. And this includes every freakin reference to anything that Paul Krugman ever wrote about the financial mess.
And progressives strangely discount the massive obstruction coming from the Tea Party People and the GOP, which is especially ironic since few progressives seem to be able to convince anybody to vote for them.
I swear to Al Franken that instead of bellyaching, you need to get Obama more support in the Congress. Otherwise, you are going to be eating disappointment sandwiches for a long, long time.
Earl Butz
Pat must have the world’s biggest arms, he’s been hauling those goalposts all over the entire field just in this one thread.
Sleeper
I hate a lot of what President Obama has done, but when he does a good thing, he deserves unqualified praise. So thank you, Mr. President, for getting this done. I carped about how you did it, but you got us there, so thanks.
AAA Bonds
Mr. Cole, why are you keeping this argument going? I thought the idea was that we shouldn’t be arguing over this?
RalfW
Pat @89
Here’s the deal. If Obama had issued that executive order, d’ya think the law would have passed and DADT would have ended for good? No way. No F’n way.
So you’d have an exec order that last till Obama is out, and you’d have chaos as guys like the Marine Commandant who didn’t want to go along but acknowledges he has to follow a law, instead testing out how much he could push back against an exec order.
Plus an exec order is tailor made for Recalcitrant Repubs to campaign against Obama in particular. Ending DADT was popular with the public, so passing it the slow, Congressional way defuses it as a Repub campaign issue. Obama “overstepping” and cramming this down the Military’s throat would have negated that utterly, if it could even have passed.
So it took two years longer that anyone would have liked. The short term fix would have had many, many back-channel problems and is susceptible to President Bachmann reversing on day 1. But a short term win is better? Really?
AAA Bonds
@Brachiator:
I’m sorry people say stuff you don’t like because you disagree with it so they shouldn’t say it because saying it out loud hurts you in a special inside place
I mean, I’d like to point out that it’s always a fantasy whenever you suggest anything, so you should never offer your opinion on anything. Okay? Cool?
AAA Bonds
The only thing I really see on Balloon Juice now on this issue is a large amount of anger at the LGBT community for pushing Obama on LGBT issues, and a real disgust and disdain that any
of them would ever try to speed things up.
None of these posts indicate genuine concern for LGBT issues, just volleys fired at the LGBT community. I know that genuine concern is there but it’s time to get back to it.
Joe in SF
Can we at least agree to stop referring to Social Security and Medicare as entitlements? I pay into it, and in return they pay when me it’s time. That’s an insurance program.
RalfW
Just read Pat @115 and regret I ever even bothered to engage.
Good lord.
AAA Bonds
I mean god forbid you just celebrate this and dispense with gloating over something you did jack all to help accomplish.
Linda Featheringill
Regarding the most recent Obama presser:
[It took me a while to find a place that would replay the parts that I missed, so I may be a little late.]
All in all, I think that Boehner may have done us all a favor here. Let’s extend the debt ceiling and then allow folks to scream and cry about cuts and taxes.
We do want to preserve these benefits for Ozone, don’t we?
Rihilism
Alls I wants to say is, YAY for us Gays! Thank you Obama, the JCs, the military, the Dems, the Gay/Straight activists and everyone who made this happen…
Also, too, shame on you Cole for taking a dump on this good news because of a childish desire to act all persnickety and pissy. I blame you for this shit-storm of a thread…
patroclus
What I see on Balloon Juice is absolute unity on repealing DOMA, repealing DADT, repealing the HIV ban, enacting ENDA, and enacting the amendment including gays and lesbians in the statute prohibiting discriminatory violent acts.
Because we all basically agree on these agenda items, that leaves plenty of room for a lot of really fun flaming and snarky comments.
Sleeper
No, the argument that many of us had was that if Obama used an executive order to suspend enforcement of DADT, then it would have given gay servicemen and -women some breathing room to, if not fully come out of the closet, at least poke their head out and move the door a little more open. And it would have given the armed forces in general time to acclimate to the idea, and eroded support for DADT to the point where it became safe enough to strike the law down, either during Obama’s presidency or his successor’s.
That was the argument as I expressed it. Moot now. But it wasn’t from a place of “wanting Obama to be a dictator/liberal Bush” as many said. I know people said that the President was trying to get the Congress to do their job, but that always felt like a weak defense of his inaction to me. Yes, it’s important to do the behind-the-scenes work, but it’s no less important to say the right things, to stand up not just to the open, easy-to-spot bigotry against LGBT Americans, but the passive indifference to their situation as well. A lot of us felt his record in that regard was either terrible, or decent but needlessly timid, considering where the country was on the issue.
Anyway, as I said earlier, today was a good day for LGBT rights so my hat is off to the President for getting this accomplished.
Pliny
Sweet, some war criminals currently waging six wars signed some shit to let more people volunteer for those and whatever other imperial adventures they can come up with. Can I vote to re-elect all of them???
LanceThruster
@Tom Hilton – 172. – Thanks for that. That is indeed encouraging (and I remember you from the Pelosi/Sheehan sparring we did).
Cindy still rocks!
Jennifer
AAA Bonds – oh, for fucks’ sake. There is a HUGE gulf of difference between pointing out to people that, you know, the president saying what you want to hear won’t actually ACCOMPLISH any concrete action, and “anger at the LGBT community.”
For one thing, most of the purists who are crying because Obama won’t say he loves gay marriage are NOT gay.
For another, if the president were to adopt their sage advice, he could kiss a number of states he won in 2008 goodbye, which would pave the way for a new president who wants to pass a constitutional amendment against gay marriage. At the very least, we would lose the next appointment to the Supreme Court, which sure as hell isn’t going to help the cause, because without congressional repeal or court overturn of DOMA, gays and lesbians in enlightened places like Texas, Oklahoma, and Arkansas can just accept that they will have second-class status for the next decade at least. And court overturn of DOMA is the most likely way forward for people in those states, because they sure as hell aren’t going to suddenly find themselves represented in congress by liberals.
So, when I point that out, does that make me guilty of blaming the LGBT community for ANYTHING at all? Or does it just indicate that some of the purists haven’t thought this out past the ends of their own noses? For the ones who aren’t gay, why should they, eh? I mean, massaging their egos by taking their very stupid advice is WAY more important than equal rights for LGBT folks in the red states, amirite? Which is why it’s no skin off their noses if they blow it for them.
I guess acknowledging this qualifies me as another hater.
AAA Bonds
@Pliny:
Dude, you totally can!
slag
@AAA Bonds:
Dumbest. Statement. Ever.
Unless, of course, you don’t think helping Obama get elected also helped accomplish this. In which case…Dumbest. Statement. Ever. By Far.
AAA Bonds
@Jennifer:
tl;dr
OzoneR
or demolish it, which is often done.
Rihilism
If I didn’t have other things that need doing I would sit down and count the number of comments actually complaining about Obama and compare it to the number of comments complaining about people who complain about Obama.
Xactly! I blame cranky ol’ Cole. As Michele Bachmann would say, “Cole, you’re an eschamuck”…
Jennifer
tl;dr? What the fuck is that supposed to mean?
OzoneR
And Obama preferred doing it legislatively like now, he was right you were wrong.
BTW, I don’t think anyone doubts his successor is likely to be a Republican, you really wanted to take that chance?
Rihilism
Oops, forgot the blockquote…
gwangung
“You win, I’m wanting out of this. I’m not going to bother to put any thought into this.”
(stands for “too long, didn’t read”; understandable response when talking about rebooting Superman and Batman, less so here).
Jennifer
gwangung – in this case it means:
Shorter AAA Bonds: “fuck the queers in the redneck states.”
Sleeper
It is never the wrong time to do the right thing. Sorry, but this nonsense about “waiting for the country to be ready” is silly to me, as if it’s a naturally occurring process that can’t be prodded along or accelerated by our own words and actions. You help end discrimination against gays by speaking out against it. You don’t keep your mouth shut and politely let homophobic bigots go on and on and then talk about finding common ground. No, sometimes, people are just wrong on an issue, and you have to point that out rather than hemming and hawing about “evolving views.” And a lot of us (okay, I shouldn’t speak for others so cavalierly; _I_ felt) that the President was too gracious to those whose vile viewpoints did not merit that treatment.
But I’m not going to argue with his results. I wanted him to do A, he did B, and in the end he got DADT killed. Cool. As I said earlier, congratulations to him. I can criticize what I see as flaws in his approach while still congratulating him on the results.
Sleeper
No, he did it the way he did it, and he got a good result. My way wasn’t tried, so barring the discovery of parallel universes, we’ll never know. I can be happy he got it accomplished and still critique his approach. I know that will offend the President’s super number one fans here, but such is life. Can’t please everybody (the irony in my saying that in this context is duly noted).
Yes, I thought it was a worthwhile chance to take, if it meant keeping gay servicemen and women from being discharged from 1/20/09 until today. That’s the problem with his approach, it left a lot of people in the lurch until those dragging their feet on this were finally won over.
You know, this isn’t really worth starting another damned blog fight over. In the end, the President got it done, and so I say again, Congratulations.
Jennifer
Sleeper – well, that would be a good point, if Obama was guilty of “not speaking out against discrimination.”
He isn’t, and that’s not why the purists have their panties in a wad anyway. Which you know.
Likewise, no one’s arguing for “waiting for the country to be ready” – to the contrary, acknowledging that some parts of the country AREN’T ready and that gays in those parts will most quickly get their rights through an overturn of DOMA, which we aren’t going to get with President Bachmann appointing the next SC justice.
But whatever. it would be worth jettisoning all of that to just hear the president say he lurves gay marriage. Which of course will actually change nothing.
Mnemosyne
So Obama’s way actually got faster results than your preferred way (since you’re talking about DADT being repealed under his successor) but you’re still convinced that your way would have been better?
Mnemosyne
The disgust and disdain that you see is with the tactics that they’re using to try and speed things up, namely by claiming that the president is a bigot who hates gay people and is the worst president for gay rights EVAH!
Hell, I saw some idiot in here yesterday trying to claim that Ronald fucking Reagan was better on gay rights than Obama is. Because apparently letting gay men die horrible deaths from AIDS was better for GLBT people than ending DADT.
Yes, I do feel disgust and disdain towards someone who believes stupid shit like that.
Lysana
@AAA Bonds: Gods forbid you realize that many of us IN the LGBT community are pissed off at the whiny little pricks like Dan Choi and their ilk. Gods forbid some of us who realize the struggle has STILL only just begun want the activists to quit behaving like we’re in endgame. Gods forbid people like you quit thinking those who criticize the activists aren’t IN the damn community.
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
This is marvelous.
Obama scores the biggest civil rights victory in 50 years and so called liberals are whinning that he didn’t do it the right way.
And to add to the hilarity, they say they can criticize and mock Obama and any supporters, but it’s over the line to criticize any critics. You have to be republican with that logic.
Sleeper
No, I’m afraid you missed some of my posts. I was saying that I would have preferred he suspended DADT with an executive order, which would have (in my opinion) eroded support for an eventual repeal of the law, while stopping several years’ worth of DADT. Just arguing hypotheticals here. It’s moot now.
Was I unclear in my earlier posts about this? Not bitching, just genuinely asking. I’ve said it pretty clearly that Obama’s achievement today was a major accomplishment and I thank him for getting it done. I’m still allowed to express an opinion about how he did it, though.
Sleeper
His record is decidedly mixed, as I’m sure YOU well know. He was consistently on the record as being against gay marriage (but for civil unions, to be fair). Since taking office, he has moved, slowly and haltingly but noticably, towards endorsing gay marriage, and this should be encouraged and prodded. Some people prefer to browbeat him with hyperbole. That may or may not be counterproductive, who knows. What I can’t stand is the constant chorus of “He’s got this” that a certain segment of his die-hard supporters burst into regardless of the situation. I won’t say it’s impossible for a politician to do the right thing on his own at considerable political risk and without coercion and pressure from a group of supporters, but I will say that it’s damned unlikely. And if we all can agree on that concept, then all we’re left arguing over is word choice on the part of those that done complain about it.
Sleeper
Sorry, but it’s the responsibility and civic duty of the electorate to never be entirely satisfied with what their leaders have accomplished. Obama’s political career gains nothing from a bunch of people jumping up and down and insisting that everyone yell “Yay Obama!!!” There’s always more work to be done, always something else left to accomplish, and politicians need to wake up every day worrying about their jobs. They should never take our support for granted.
I thank the President for his accomplishment today. Now what will he do for us tomorrow?
Brachiator
@AAA Bonds:
I certainly don’t care whether people say stuff that I don’t like. I don’t even care whether people say stupid stuff, which accounts for my tolerance of every inane sentence that drips from your fingers.
It ain’t my blog, and it certainly is not yours, so as I noted once before, you need to stop pretending that someone appointed you Propaganda Minister. Seriously.
Yutsano
@ruemara:
U r now my new best friend. :)
Honestly, though, never known a Dawg who wasn’t tough as nails on the outside and the biggest damn sweetheart on the inside. Marines make great pets.
Danny
@23,24 rob in dc
Firebaggers can finally come out of the closet: “Gays getting to serve openly in the military, like, who ever really gave a shit? It’s about Obama!”