Scott Shane is one of the best journalists working today. In today’s NYTs he digs into the influence that American wingnut bloggers had on the mass murderer in Norway. It is a story well worth reading.
The quote above is from a former CIA officer who frame the link of violence to wingnut rhetoric quite nicely:
Marc Sageman, a former C.I.A. officer and a consultant on terrorism, said it would be unfair to attribute Mr. Breivik’s violence to the writers who helped shape his world view. But at the same time, he said the counterjihad writers do argue that the fundamentalist Salafi branch of Islam “is the infrastructure from which Al Qaeda emerged. Well, they and their writings are the infrastructure from which Breivik emerged.”
That a racist mass murderer has cited the racist bile spewing from their pens as a major influence on his twisted thinking has outraged writers like Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer and others, but not that much–what really outrages these assholes is that anybody would dare to mention that their bile has consequences. As always, it is any effort to be held to account for their words and the influence of their propaganda that really inflames these weak-minded, fearful, racist slugs.
One of the folks pointing out this free flowing exchange of Transatlantic racist bile is Charles Johnston over at Little Green Footballs. It is interesting to watch as he documents the links of wingnut hate rhetoric to these murders and his back and forth with dim-bulbs like Geller. It is fair that he pulls this duty as the killer’s manifesto contained a link to an old post of his in a footnote. And even though he decided to get off the wingnut crazy train a couple of years ago, his old posts give him plenty of reasons to take up this fight and the tools to leave a mark when he lands a punch. His rejection of wingnut magical thinking has made him a prime target of the rage of folks like Geller who are super pissed that anybody would notice the call to violence implicit in their body of work. As a deflection Geller pretends that Johnson’s minor link as one footnote among many is far worst than the killer’s specific praise for her work, and Spencer’s and their fellow merchants of hate. It’s not, but logic and honesty have never been wingnut virtues.
Shane’s article goes on to cite the shutdown of efforts to track domestic wingnut terrorists in the US after Conservative outrage of a 2009 draft Homeland Security report on the subject. He quoted a former analyst at Homeland Security as saying:
The killings in Norway “could easily happen here,” he said. The Hutaree, an extremist Christian militia in Michigan accused last year of plotting to kill police officers and planting bombs at their funerals, had an arsenal of weapons larger than all the Muslim plotters charged in the United States since the Sept. 11 attacks combined, he said.
Over at the Campaign to Stop Gun Violence they have been tracking the rise of violent rhetoric and action in Wingnutopia on their Insurrection Timelime. This is a far bigger threat to America than al Qaeda and one would hope that folks here wake up to the danger of these domestic enemies. Shane’s article ends with this kicker from a Homeland Security official:
“What happened in Norway,” Mr. Cohen said, “is a dramatic reminder that in trying to prevent attacks, we cannot focus on a single ideology.”
Word.
And we can no longer afford to let wingnut poutrage shield the violent extremists among them from scrutiny. As Breivik in Norway demonstrated, it is only a matter of time before the Right wing kills again. These are dangerous times and we are confronted with crazy people who view most of the world as sub-human–crazy people with guns and a proven willingness to use them.
And with that, how about an open thread.
Cheers.
Ives
We have a tea party organization in Maine that calls itself the Maine Refounders. On their webpage today they have named Anders Breivik their ‘man of the year’ for 2011. No kidding.
http://themaineteaparty.com/profiles/blogs/man-of-the-year-2011
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
I don’t think you can declare an open thread when you have a major topic like this.
Zifnab
Resulting violence isn’t a bug, it’s a feature. The entire purpose of the hateful, extremist rhetoric is to goad one of the faithful into action. Everyone in the group hypes the idea of taking up arms and really sticking it to the dirty Marxist Liberal Multi-culturalists. Finally, someone picks up a gun and pulls the trigger, and – after the wingers realize they can’t pin the violence on Marxist Liberal Multi-culturalists – the trigger-man is quietly applauded.
ML
“These are dangerous times and we are confronted with crazy people who view most of the world as sub-human—crazy people with guns and a proven willingness to use them”.
I’d say that’s an apt description of how most of the world views the United States nowadays.
Laura
Wild. Outlandish. Inhumane. Fascist, even. But not–in the clinical sense of the word–crazy. Not mad, but angry. If we dropped the ‘crazy’ talk when speaking of these groups and people, somehow things start to look a lot more serious.
Bulworth
This was news to me.
Zifnab
Laura:,
It’s crazy in the sense that anyone would think the best way to perpetuate and spread an ideology is by randomly executing a handful of opposition ideologues.
The notion that you can shoot up a park or a school, and that this will cause people who weren’t already deeply in the tank to support your cause, is what strikes me as truly insane.
I mean, take the guy who flew his plane into the Austin IRS building. Did his actions in any way influence tax policy? These are actions that are so incredibly disjointed from their intended results, and do such terrible harm in the process, that they can only properly be called “Crazy”.
cleek
@Ives:
actually, it was just one guy, who doesn’t appear to have been a member for much more than a week, who has left one other comment, who said that. and the only comment that post has received is:
“please explain yourself. This is no hero. ”
teabaggers are loons, but that was not an official tea party pronouncement of any kind.
Ash Can
And this is what made me e-mail the FBI this morning over what appeared on the Maine Tea Party web site. As cleek pointed out to me in a previous thread, that particular instance is a whole lot of nothing, but it’s OK by me if I come off as just some hysterical broad if people who know better than me look this up and confirm that it’s nothing to worry about. Maybe the next hysterical broad (or guy) sending a tip to the authorities will really be on to something.
ETA: And see Ives and cleek above, of course.
ed drone
You know, we’re going down a slippery slope here, and I don’t know any way to avoid it. We don’t want a police state, but a loon’s posting — because it could mean, or lead to, or indicate, a crazy attack on innocent fellow citizens, almost MUST be taken seriously, or at least brought to the attention of the “authorities,” and it’s just that authoritarianism we’re trying to avoid.
When you’re dealing with true crazy, half-crazy is sometimes the only response.
We’re screwed.
Ed
arguingwithsignposts
@Ash Can: I think you did right to contact the FBI, fwiw. Even though it’s not “official” tea party stuff, it’s obviously a person who has a host of issues on his own. In fact, the Mainers should be the ones contacting the FBI.
ETA: as noted above “And with that, how about an open thread.” heh.
MazeDancer
This weekend, I was trapped in an almost info free zone in TN. But the few pieces I did see on Norway tragedy – one local TV news and one big TN newspaper front story – all kept “Christian” out of the discussion. Not in the headline, not anywhere in the story.
No one in TN had any idea the guy is a Christian extremist. Though many are aware there are right-wing Christianists, and apparently violence has occured by such groups in the tri-state area
And, somewhat surprisingly, I heard otherwise quite Conservative folks, who can easily conflate Muslim and terrorist, say they don’t approve of violence and don’t see much difference between armed right wing violence and the Taliban.
But wondering if “Christian” being white-washed out of the reporting in many parts of the US.
beltane
Over at the Guardian’s liveblog they have a bit on Melanie Phillips complaining about the hate mail she has been receiving in the wake of the Norway attack. The Norwegian terrorist was just a lone, mentally ill individual: the lefties sending her mean emails, on the other hand, are a real threat to Europe. The only thing the right-wing does better than getting people killed is whining about being blamed for it. The moral bankruptcy runs deep with these people.
Continental Op
The Oslo killer tells us about the formation of a new Knights Templar organization which will wage war against Islam. This meme also shows up in the writing of Ms. Gellar’s blogging buddy: John Jay.
Ash Can
@ed drone: When I looked at the link myself, I didn’t find the denial that cleek found, but I’m glad he found it, I’m glad it’s there, and I’m glad it turns out that I was apparently worried for nothing. Implicit in all of this is the fact that I trust Joe Operative with the FBI to be able to look at something like this and be able to make the proper distinction between “This is nothing; this complainer is full of it,” and “There’s a reasonable suspicion this person is loony enough to act on this.”
There’s eliminationist rhetoric on both sides. I see it here and I see it from nutpickings from RW sites. In almost every case, while I don’t like it, I dismiss it as people blowing off steam. There was something about this instance that pushed me over the edge, though. I’m confident that cooler heads at the FBI, who doubtless get paranoid tips all the time, will prevail.
Elliecat
It won’t win support but it will probably scare people away from opening opposing you. I’m sure that’s good enough for them.
arguingwithsignposts
In a somewhat related vein, there were reports soon after the election that Obama was receiving a lot more death threats, etc. than Bush did and the Secret Service was very busy chasing down and analyzing these things. Has anyone heard anything about that since then? Have the threats gone down? up? stayed the same?
Ash Can
@arguingwithsignposts: Thanks. And good point. I hope they did.
beltane
@Continental Op: The oringinal Knights Templar were disbanded over charges of sodomy and financial dirty dealings. Odd choice of heroes there.
sherifffruitfly
ISOLATED INCIDENT!
/me walks away whistling innocently.
lols
Dr. Loveless
For today’s GOP? They fit right in.
Tuttle
The original Templars were disbanded so the king of France could steal their money. All financial dealings are dirty.
Still an odd choice (especially seeing as how multicultural the Templars were).
Sir Nose'D
Little Green Footballs should be on your blog roll if you are interested in Islamaphobia.
TD
“This is a far bigger threat to America than al Qaeda and one would hope that folks here wake up to the danger of these domestic enemies.”
In a sense this is correct, insofar that al Qaeda, as al Qaeda, will never have the capability to fundamentally change our society from the inside.
But there is another sense in which the two groups fundamentally need each other to fulfill each others goals. By which I mean: I’m not terribly worried about white supremacists gaining mainstream legitimacy in the absence of groups like al Qaeda successfully carrying out attacks.
It’s the cycle of endogenous polarization that the two groups create together that is really the threat to democratic stability.
Ash Can
And BTW, I second the motion to add LGF to the blogroll.
bcinaz
The Templars were Banksters who probably escaped to Switzerland.
Paris
The MSM needs to investigate and make public the connections between the Norway massacre and the nuts and their European guests/speakers who protested and spoke against the NYC community center. Geller and Spencer invited evil ideologues that pal around with terrorists. This should be used to discredit them and their movement here. They should be shunned and not given the platform they’ve had in the past as if they have reasonable concerns.
buckyblue
Teabaggers made this guy Man of the Year??? Screenshots and advertisements shall ensue.
GEESSSHHH, I knew these guys were crazy, but stupid too. Wow, just, wow.
Quiddity
Erasmus (religious scholar and humanist of the 16th century) on the building schism within the Catholic Church:
Salvador Dalai Llama
@beltane: no,not so strange a choice.
As a member of the UU church in TN who was shot at three years ago this week, one of the things that always bothered me (aside from the PTSD) was the complete lack of apology from people like O’Reilly, Hannity, and Michael Savage, whose books were found in the shooter’s house. Good to see the right wing pundits are staying true to form.
Continental Op
I suspect it has to do with waging a holy crusade against Muslims.
Ash Can
@buckyblue: An isolated nut, as it apparently turns out. But it still says something about the Tea Party that he saw fit to post it there.
Templars for the Free Worship of Baphomet
I think the omission of his religion in news from the great state of Tennessee is a boon. This keeps the radical left from continuing their assault on x-tianity. Hey Zeus “El Savior” Christ said it himself, “But now, whoever has an ammo belt is to take it along, likewise also an extended clip, and whoever has no automatic rifle is to sell his coat and buy one.” (Luke 22:36)
The New Templars will keep this ‘muslim’ threat to Europe in check. The armor will be expensive and, sadly, horsemanship skills have fallen away from modern schooling but usury will help offset training costs. Plus, headquarters could be in Jerusalem! That is sure to stem the tide of ottoman hordes at the gates of vienna.
jinxtigr
I’ve been telling people, that guy is not crazy. He’s something more frightening- a soldier (or, if you like, revolutionary), and he’s not the first and won’t be the last.
It was a political act, and the guy is a soldier. That is very much how he sees himself and there are lots of others like him.
When soldiers attack you, it’s called war, not ‘what is that madman doing, get him some help’.
wrb
Yea, but they controlled the banking system. Sounds perfect.
pseudonymous in nc
I’m not sure that Charles Johnson deserves too many plaudits for stepping back from the abyss to which he’d led his readers once he worked out that Gellar and Spencer were gleefully working with superficially-rebranded neo-fascists. But, small mercies.
Anyway, the second phase of argument from wingnuts and “terror experts” alike — that neo-fascists are now somehow indebted to jihadists for their methodology, or that multiculturalism made them crazy, therefore BLAME TEH MOOSLIMS — is no less creepy than the early leaping to conclusions. Mass-murdering nutjobs belong to one unhappy family.
dadanarchist
The headline is overly generous – I don’t think there is a lot of “thought” involved in the Gellerverse…
Hob
It’s even stupider than that. Gellar isn’t saying that Johnson’s past writing as a xenophobic asshole inspired Breivik; she’s saying that when Johnson stopped being a xenophobic asshole, this betrayal of his roots may have been the “provocation” (yes, that’s the word she used) that drove Breivik over the edge.
GregB
I am holding these rightwing Christianists to the same standard that they hold every Muslim to.
Please denounce this murdering coward who shares your religious beliefs. Do it loudly and in public and please explain why we should not conclude that you all think and given the chance act this way.
Thank you.
Xecky Gilchrist
“What happened in Norway,” Mr. Cohen said, “is a dramatic reminder that in trying to prevent attacks, we cannot focus on a single ideology.”
Indeed, and they should probably stop focusing on some they are giving the hairy eyeball now – e.g. Quakers.
Jay C
@ Dennis: Minor nitpick, but LGF’s Charles’ last name is “Johnson”, not “Johnston”
Bulworth @ #6:
Yeah, funny thing about that: the bust of the Michigan Hutaree – as potentially dangerous a terrorist cell as any – was news for about a week or two and then dropped off the radar. The size of their arsenal WAS reported on, but it was never treated as anything remarkable: one supposes that a gang of nutball “militiamen” in the American hinterlands would be expected to be armed to the teeth: no surprise.
Mazedancer @ #12:
And on the other hand, the New York Times headlined its first front-page report on the Norway massacre with “Christian Extremist”, so the tippy-toeing around the subject was probably a local thing…
Tuttle @ #22:
Yes, imagining oneself as a “holy warrior” (wonder where he picked that concept up from?) is SOP for violent nuts: check out some of the outfits Anders Breivik used to dress up in
ChenZhen
Johnson has a lot of gall pointing the finger, considering many citations in the manifesto were from (and directly to) the old LGF days when he was proudly featuring the work of Spencer, Fjordman, and Geller, as well as his own rants against Islamists, the dangers of “multiculturalism” and “dhimmitude”. He can’t undo the fact that LGF spent the better part of a decade in that corner of the web. (And there were a total of 23 LGF links in the footnotes.)
Sure, the manifesto doesn’t specifically say that Breivik was a fan of the old LGF (that I could find), but we can almost assume it. Would anyone would be surprised if, tomorrow, Breivik expressed as much?
Johnson would really be up a creek should that happen. I know the guilt by association game is his favorite, but he’s running the risk of it exploding right in his face. Geller’s not the only one doing some deflecting here.
anonymous
Ash Can @ #25:
Thirded.
ChenZhen
Sir Nose’D-
I don’t suppose you checked out the LGF threads about “Islamophobia“, did you? Johnson called it a “hoax” and a ” nonexistent psychological condition”.
Herbal Infusion Bagger
That’s what you get when the King Philip IV of France is deep in debt to you and would rather not repay. I guess the Templars weren’t “Too Big to Fail (or be roasted).”
Herbal Infusion Bagger
FYI, Mark Sageman took a load of hoary old myths about the motivations and psychological background of jihadi terrorists and blew them out of the water in his two books on Al-Qaeda.
He’s not some random Op-Ed guy, he’s a psychiatrist, and is *God* among those who follow the social psychology of terrorism.
So if he draws a straight line between wingnut blogs and the horror in Norway, he should be taken seriously.
West of the Rockies (formerly Frank W.)
I came upon a link yesterday (was it here or at Daily Kos or Dispatches from the Culture Wars… I can’t recall) for “Alternative Right” where there seemed to be tepid acknowledgment that what Breivik did was wrong but that he did, in fact, take out the future leaders of the Labor Party in Norway, for which he was definitely receiving some praise. AR readers are, evidently, terrified by Multiculturalism (and those darn dark-skinned, non-Bible-thumpin’ heathens world-wide).
Mjaum
I wrote the following on a certain thread over at PajamasMedia, which I wanted to repeat here:
“This evening my people are standing up to terror. Four days after the largest terrorist action in Norway’s history, one hundred and fifty thousand people have gathered in the streets of Oslo (a city of five hundred thousand). I am in awe of my countrymen. Of their bravery, their resilience.”
Then I saw the reply I got:
“What? Because they “stand up” in a giant herd of prey? Are any of them armed? Do any of them actually intend to take ACTION to accomplish something? Or do they expect some young law enforcement or military person to get in the way of the next bomb or bullet? There’s a definite line between bravery and delusion. Stop standing and start doing.”
Do people really think like this in the US?
Ash Can
Is “ChenZhen” matoko’s new handle? I thought she got a time-out.
@Mjaum:
I’d like to think that it’s a relatively small minority who do, but you won’t get that impression at Pajamas Media, I’m sure.
ETA: PS: I’m sure that the person who said that in response to your comment isn’t smart enough to realize that to “take action” would be, in this case, to declare “open season” on right-wing extremists just like him.
Fair and Balanced
Here’s another “minor link” to Charles Johnson praising Robert Spencer and another one of his new books…
http://postimage.org/image/1u7x2sxyc/
Charles recommends Robert Spencer’s book as an “excellent new book.” And Charles goes on to fawn “… this book took real courage to write.” and “… (it) taught me quite a bit about the about the actual life of Islam’s prophet.”
Remember… Charles Johnson ,Fjordman, Robert Spencer and Pam Geller… were the foundation of the anti-Jihad blogverse. Now Charles has deleted all his former blog post, trying to cover up his part in the chain of responsibility.
Midnight Lucy
Using Charles Johnson for your argument is ridiculous. If you did your homework, you would know that both Geller and Spencer not only got their start through Johnson, but he was very much of the same mind frame until recently. All you have to do is look at almost any post on LGF from 2002-2007 (the ones he hasn’t memory-holed that is) and you can see the truth for yourself. Charles Johnson is nothing more than a hypocritical cad trying to pimp his blog through this tragedy. Shame on him and shame on you for allowing it.
Mjaum
Yub. We don’t do that. This makes me feel good.
nitpicker
@Ives: Please tell me you got a screenshot. That Maine Tea Party Site is down.
Midnight
Using Charles Johnson to make your argument is ridiculous. If you had done your homework, you would know that both Geller and Spencer not only got their start through Johnson and LGF, but he was very much of the same mind set until recently. To verify this, all you have to do is look at almost any post on LGF from 2002-2007 — the ones he hasn’t memory-holed anyway. If he is going to point fingers, he needs to start with himself. Johnson is nothing more than a hyocritical cad trying to pimp his blog through this tragedy. Shame on him and shame on you for allowing it.
Donald G
@Ash Can
I thought it might be an ex-Lizard that Charles banned who went over to the Stalkerblog. Who knows?
Ruckus
Denis G
Once again a great post.
We are at a tipping point and the normal tools of discussion have been removed as tools to battle with. Because the nutcases, be they the writers/instigators or the people pulling the trigger have no use, idea or understanding of logic and reason. It’s why they can not compromise. They can not conceive of compromise.
People can only conceive of compromise when they can discuss ideas with logic, reason and results. Conservatives today can not do any of these because their ideals are based upon faith. Faith in religion, faith in grifters, really, just faith that others must know the answers because they don’t.
kay
Not that it’s news to anyone here, but conservatives are completely incoherent on this as on everything else.
Heated rhetoric (political speech) could lose the war in Iraq, according to the moron choir, but has no effect whatsoever on their random lunatic followers here and abroad. Ditto for Obama’s preacher, who brainwashed Obama into anti-american sentiment just with his words. Ditto for any Muslim religious expression, which leads immediately and inexorably to burka-wearing.
One or the other. Choose. Speech is powerful or it isn’t. It can’t be that only speech they disagree with is powerful, can it?
Rational people don’t waste time denying that rhetoric has power. Conservatives do, well, sometimes, but no one else does.
MazeDancer
@Jay C:
Yes, I saw that once reconnected to infostream and appreciated the Times thoroughness. Which was part of wondering was what the geo-coverage of including/not including “Christian”. Didn’t see any national TV, so don’t know if they mentioned. But the people who need to see the Christian thing most – mainstream churches in the South – may not have heard.
That argument that “moderate Muslims” need to “clean-up” Islam and educate/repudiate terrorists could possibly be more appropriately applied to US White Folks Christendom.
Mjaum
Ash Can, thank you. I rolled around some of the other “On Norway” threads over there, and the one I found myself on first was actually saner than most.
Which is distinctly scary.
Mjaum
Abso-fricking-lutely!
Ives
The Maine Refounders site I mentioned above has taken down the page with the praise for Breivik. Screen shot is at
http://www.dirigoblue.com
Mjaum
Ye flipping gods…
Glenn Beck is reported to have said that the AUF (the youth political organization to which the murdered norwegian youths and children belonged) “is like the Hitlerjugend”.
Someone be turning it up to eleven…
Mjaum
Oooohhh… You’ve all lumbered off to that *other* thread… Me lonely! /pads after the big kids
Comrade Scrutinizer
@63 Mjaum
By who? Got a link/reference for us? If not, it didn’t happen.
Cris (without an H)
Scrutinizer: Here you go, complete with embedded audio.
LanceThruster
The picture they’re showing of Breivik reminds of this – “Tomorrow Belongs To Me” from Cabaret
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs5bnVoZK4Q
Aquaria
Would it be news to you that Muslims were getting their hands on 800 mg of sodium cyanide and fashioning it into bombs, remote control detonators disguised as suitcases, 60 pipe bombs, machine guns, fake IDs for the UN and the Defense Intelligence Agency, anti-Semitic and other racist literature and a cache of half a million rounds of ammo, and they were planning to use all of it on American citizens?
Oh wait. That wasn’t Muslims–that was a pair of right-wing goober thugs in Texas who actually did have all that. Barely a blip in the media, and, worst of all, the ringleader got 11 years in jail. That’s it. http://www.blackcommentator.com/70/70_cover_white_terror_pf.html> This site has plenty of links to get the full story.
You know that no Muslim or leftist would get off that easily. But right-wing thugs do. All the time.