Just watched the Orange Speaker spew a bunch of bullshit and toe the teahadist line. Looks like default is what is for dinner.
At this point, all the Republicans will be focused on is how to blame Democrats for the fall-out.
Reader Interactions
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jwb
We won’t default, but there won’t be an increase to the ceiling, we’re probably looking at idiotic impeachment, and the whole thing is going to be extremely painful.
Poopyman
How come talking heads and the Pres (!) equate raising interest rates to a hidden tax? Taxes go to the govt, and interest goes into the pockets of the banksters. I’m starting to get the idea that banksters might like to see increased interest rates.
JPL
You are a brave man, I walked away although a friend called and is updating me. Wish I hadn’t used up my quota of swear words because I like using them as adjectives.
Gex
Sociopaths. I really hope Obama finds a way to make them pay no matter how much the media tries to blame him.
Poopyman
I want to punch Rep Joe Walsh in the neck. On both sides. At once.
Yevgraf
Why do you hate the troops and want ‘Murka to lose, Cole?
mr. whipple
WE’RE ALL GONNA DIIIIIIIIIIE!!!!!!!
Sarah in Brooklyn
I read the transcript of Obama’s speech. Seems like he spelled it out so pretty much anyone can understand what’s going on. But will it make any difference?
DCLaw1
This is deeply, deeply upsetting. As Krugman quoted Lincoln, “A [House Republican] highwayman holds a pistol to my ear, and mutters through his teeth, ‘Stand and deliver, or I shall kill you, and then you will be a murderer!'”
gogol's wife
I don’t usually wish for people to get banned (I never complained, much, about M-C), but that Reality Check is working on my last nerve in the thread below. It’s only a matter of seconds before he shows up here.
MikeJ
@Sarah in Brooklyn: Linkee?
RossInDetroit
I’m so sick of this shit. The GOP has picked a political beef over the fate of our economic recovery and I have to worry about it every waking hour.
Thanks, Republicans. I hope the voters pound you into a rat hole in 18 months.
I have better things for my remaining brain cells to be doing than keeping track of your latest tantrum.
The Dangerman
@jwb:
I agree with all except the impeachment; there will be no impeachment.
Extremely painful is, however, an understatement. We are headed into an abyss because of the TeaTards.
I thought Obama sounded like a serious Statesman and Boehner a pompous prick.
Edit:
I expect the markets to take a serious shit tomorrow.
Libby's Person
I just tried to e-mail my R senator; the senate website is “temporarily unavailable.” Perhaps I’m not the only one who is pissed as hell at the absurdity of it all. I’ll try again tomorrow. I want to tell him that I’m confused – the Republicans say they want to reduce the nation’s debt, but one big result of default will be an immediate increase in the debt due to the increased interest on that debt. I haven’t quite figured out a tactful way to ask if he and his colleagues are simply ignorant idiots, or malicious self-important blowhards who don’t give a damn about actual human beings, or both.
General Stuck
The teatard idiots in the House are already opposing the plan their own speaker is going to put up for a vote. These people are no different than a Kindergarten Mafia
It was good to see Obama mellowed back out and looking confident. The ball is in the public’s court now, for who to blame when their credit card interest skyrockets, along with about every other kind of loan. I am just glad I got off the plastic money a few years ago.
Me and the mutt can get by on puppy chow and rainwater. Some of the Alpo sirloin dogfood I treat Charlie to a couple days a week, don’t look half bad.
Some Guy
What no one is talking about, and understandably because it is unthinkable, is what happens after default. It is not just interest rates. Millions of people will be left without money for food and meds. That won’t change until we do something about it, namely rasie the debt ceiling of just slash the shit of some expenditure.
So imagine a conversation about which limb to cut off and eat for dinner because we are starving. You think things are crazy now.
This is going to be truly, truly awful.
Thank you Tea Party. You clearly love the country so much you would rather it die than let it live in a way you disapprove of. So thoughtful.
Hunter Gathers
The Confederacy wasn’t totally defeated, it just went and hid in the woods for 150 years.
jwb
Sarah in Brooklyn: “Will it make any differnce?” In the short term, no. This one is going to have to go to real crisis, I’m afraid, before things start to shake loose.
Nicole
Can someone explain to me why it is, when they are supposedly the party whose pockets are getting stuffed full by the Captains of Industry, that GOP responses always look as though they are being filmed by a high school’s A/V department?
tulip
John, do you ever wish you had just kept drinking the koolaid and stayed a staunch Republican and never had the moment that turned your political view?
Then all of this would be the right thing to do.
agrippa
So be it.
Let it be done.
Keith G
Some how the GOP has got it in their head that Obama will blink first. I don’t know where that came from. They believe that they know his weakness and have him in a corner, and to some degree they do.
Poopyman
IIRC, emails don’t even register with Congresscritters. Hand written letters are great, as are faxes. Phone calls are less effective, but still useful.
Did I get that right?
RareSanity
@gogol’s wife:
You need to get cleek’s pie filter:
Grease Monkey version
Chrome extension of the same
Mark S.
From what I heard on NPR, the House won’t have a bill until at least Thursday night because they have some stupid “pledge” that all bill be on the Internet for 3 days. And it’s doubtful anything can pass the Senate by the end of the week.
So yeah, there’s gonna be a default. I think future historians (living in Greenland because we’ve cooked the planet) will point to this episode as the beginning of the end of this particular system of government. I just hope it means we switch to a parliamentary system instead of, say, a fascist dictatorship.
Jeffro
In the end, the majority of the blame is likely to fall where it belongs, on the House R’s and R’s in general. (I said a majority, not some resounding national referendum – I still think the 2012 election will be about 51-47% for Obama)
It’s a shame that Obama and the Dems haven’t talked more about how a point or two hike in interest rates across the board will hit working families and small businesses. Gotta be the first time I ever wished for (gag) Beck and his chalkboard.
MazeDancer
The Congressional offices of most reps are closed. So if people are actually attempting to do what President said and call their reps what they’re getting is a ringing phone.
I just tried, even tho rep a loyal Dem, and just got ringing. Then noticed website said office hours over at 6:00. Will call tomorrow.
Chuck Schumer is on CNN being incredibly calm and not heated. Guess that’s the official tact. He was followed by a CNN poll showing 51% of pubic would blame the GOP for a default.
Heliopause
What a complete waste of time. Both of them just reiterated the same bullshit they’ve been spouting for weeks. I was really hoping the President would say, “fuck it, I’m going to Hawaii for a couple of weeks, you all work this out,” but no, just the same goddamned talking points. The goddamned reality shows that these two pre-empted would have been more informative.
Mustang Bobby
The late Stephen Hopkins, delegate from Rhode Island at the Continental Congress, once noted, “Dear Sir, you are without any doubt, a rogue, a rascal, a villain, a thief, a scoundrel, and a mean, dirty, stinking, sniveling, sneaking, pimping, pocket-picking, thrice double-damned no-good son of a bitch.” I could swear he was talking about Mr. Boehner.
DCLaw1
TPM points out something I noticed on CNN, which made me want to throw the TV out the window.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2011/07/wha.php?ref=fpblg
Just appalling.
MikeJ
@RareSanity: Also, newest version of the chrome pie filter has the reply button hack baked in.
jwb
The Dangerman: It’s possible there are 20 sane Goopers in the caucus that will keep the House from impeaching, but the threats have already been made and at this point I don’t see the teatard caucus backing down. There is really only one place they go from here in terms of turning up the outrage and that’s impeachment. On the other hand, nothing will come of impeachment because it will die as quickly as possible once it hits the Senate.
RossInDetroit
That’s possible, but I think it’s likely that Boehner’s caucus gives him zero latitude to negotiate. It’s not so much that he’s pressing Obama for the deal that he wants but rather that what he’s offering is the only deal he’s got. This, in addition to he’s an asshole.
gnomedad
From @pourmecoffee on FB and Twitter:
Reality Check
Obama has seven days to do what the GOP says or he’s fucked.
Bada ba ba bbaaaaaaaaaaaaa…I’m Lovin’ It!
cleek
@Poopyman:
beause everything the govt wants to do will cost more in debt, if it has to borrow the cash to do it.
DCLaw1
Hunter Gathers, you said it.
Trurl
And now the final act of the kabuki is prepared…
Obama announces that he is “reluctantly” signing Boehner’s “imperfect deal” because he can not allow Americans to be harmed by a default. Nevertheless, it represents “a step in the right direction”…
Obama is getting everything he wants.
His supporters are getting everything they deserve.
Rommie
@Keith G or the GOP is convinced they have him if Obama is forced to act on his own, which it looks like he will (IMO), and then they can impeach him and win in 2012. Hey, it worked in 2000, right? {Picard facepalm}
Davis X. Machina
@Some Guy: Guess I should file the Federal PLUS loan app for the daughter before going to bed, huh?
@ Poopyman: I have an old debate student who works in a Senator’s office. His take is:
Snail mail to DC is sometimes delivered in three days, sometimes delayed three weeks, but is always opened and read (interns gotta intern) — even if you just get The Form Letter in reply.
Phone’s ok. It gets absorbed in a quick thumbs-up/down way. In-state personal phone call to the in-state offices of a senator get extra points. Faxes are also noticed, again especially in-state to in-state.
E-mail, not so much. Astro-turfing isn’t exactly a secret.
Wick
We may want to reconsider just who deserves the nickname “Great Orange Satan.” Just Sayin’
RareSanity
@MikeJ:
I saw that…good on you, mate!
You and cleek have definitely kept my blood pressure down this evening.
Thank you!
If I can ever get myself motivated, I have always wanted to add an “add to piefilter” context menu. Select the name right (or cmd) click, and add it to the filter…easy peasy…
Violet
Is there going to be a Balloon-Juice phone-your-Representatives campaign? I’m in. I’ll be phoning my Rep and both my Senators tomorrow.
aisce
now that’s funny.
Kathleen
According to one of our local Cincinnati Botcasters, the Tea Partiers were going to Boner’s office in West Chester today to thank him for supporting them.
dmsilev
Isn’t it funny how Trurl and Reality Check sound almost identical to each other?
Corner Stone
That was all just a useless hot mess.
The Dangerman
@jwb:
The Right will already get blamed (not by all, but by a majority) for the shitstorm that is coming; impeachment only doubles down on the ass kicking they are going to take in 2012.
Spaghetti Lee
I’ve just been numb to it all for the last few days. I can’t even work up the passion to get angry anymore. And I don’t even think I stand that much to lose, but just the fact that such stupid, evil, treacherous people could be in control of the government is just mind-boggling. What the fuck good could a phone call or letter do anyway? They’re all committed, they’re going to burn the thing down because they fucking feel like it. Democracy? Not if the Republicans can help it.
Mike R.
It’s a done deal. Boehner can’t get enough votes even if every Dem in the House voted for it. As John’s tag suggests we are dealing with sociopaths (not hyperbole) real fucking deranged sociopaths. They’ve convinced themselves of their moral superiority and will stop at nothing. They are every bit the terrorists that they imagine behind Mosques everywhere.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Fineman reporting that phone lines at the capitol are jammed
congressional websites crashing
peej
I happen to live in a good Democratic state (Maryland) so I have 2 Democratic senators and Chris Van Hollen for my Rep. So I’m going to spend my time seething about the Republitards in the House and wondering whether or not I’m going to have a job come August 3rd since I’m one of those Federal contractors Obama talked about tonight.
eclecticbrotha
Watching Lawrence right now. Fineman says the sudden upsurge in traffic at Congressional websites in response to the president’s speech have caused a lot of their sites to crash. Sa-weeeeeeeeeet….
RP
“the Orange Speaker” That’s cool. I wish more of our public figures had nicknames like that. The Sage of Omaha. The Palindrome (that’s not Sarah Palin, that’s a reference to a financier whose name is a palindrome).
MikeJ
@RareSanity: It was on my list before I got bogged down in entwicklung a huge load of yava.
Corner Stone
All a bunch of political cover for Boehner. The deal is cooked and we’re going to see spending cuts with no revenues.
Deal signed at last minute.
drew42
Typical GOP — so easily brainwashed, he actually converses in jingles. And thinks he’s clever doing so.
Cacti
Considering the Koch’s do pay for internet trolls, does it really surprise?
I often wonder if some of our resident “firebaggers” aren’t paid by the post also.
Davis X. Machina
@peej: Call ’em anyway. Reward good behavior, encourage better. 90% of day-to-day of policy (non-constituent-service) communications that go into a Congresscritter’s office is negative.
WaterGirl
It sounds like maybe it would be more effective to FAX than phone. Is there good email to fax software out there these days? I haven’t used it in years, but that might be the way to go.
JGabriel
@The Dangerman:
This is what I expect too. Boehner just told them, “We intend to default, just to fuck up the country.”
.
Thoroughly Pizzled
The situation is getting scarier by the hour, but it’s also morbidly fascinating.
It’s like in Death Note when the opponents all have their plans in order and all there is to do is wait to see who has won and who has died.
Of course, one of the intellects in this case is nothing like the ones in Death Note.
MikeBoyScout
Wow! Did y’all see Nero jamming on the fiddle?
And what was that pyrotechnic show in the background? Whatever it was, it was pretty awesome; like the whole damn US of Murka was burning up. Wow!
jwb
Corner Stone: It’s not time yet for the big speech. I imagine that will come Sunday night. Still, it does make me wonder what the White House thought the point of tonight’s speech was. The only thing that occurs to me is that they feel they are getting swamped by the media’s “both sides” narrative and wanted to make an attempt to get outside that.
BTW, do you still think a deal is cooked?
Keith G
@Rommie Now that would be interesting and it would end up being a slight advantage for Obama, so I think the GOP would wish that not to happen. They seem to feel that they will be able to extort more give out of Obama.
DCLaw1
“Obama has seven days to do what the GOP says or he’s fucked.”
Should read: “Obama has seven days to do what the GOP says or
he’sthe country and global economy are fucked.”Also known as a psychopathic hostage situation. From the same people who bellow the loudest about “patriotism,” no less.
MomSense
I’m starting to feel like the people of Easter Island. Time to just build the big giant heads and…
JGabriel
WaterGirl:
I’ll have to direct you to Google for an answer to that, but if you don’t have a modem installed you’ll probably want to look for a faxing website instead.
ETA: eFax may be a good online service.
.
cleek
oh noes. Obama’s done sold us out down the river through the woods all the way to gramma Boehner’s house where he gets all he wants and there aren’t any more ponies never no more and if he would’ve only used the Magic Pulpit!
RareSanity
@MikeJ:
My list is so long, I just ignore it now…
Is the non-packaged source available on your site anywhere?
Kathy in St. Louis
When did this site get to be a troll heaven? This is one of my favorite sight, lots of bright people who give me new insights. Now when I show up here, which I do practically daily there are more and more aholes of the teapartying persuasion trying to sound as if they know what they are talking about. I realize it’s a free internet and all, but I really could not possibly give less of a shit about their opinions of Obama. If they can’t be civil they need to talk amongst themselves at Fox News’s website or someplace else I will never go.
Meredith
Congressional websites are apparently crashing.
jwb
The Dangerman: Of course, impeachment is completely a losing strategy, but so is not raising the fucking debt! You’re talking crazy cult ideology here, not rational political calculation among at least half the Gooper caucus. Most of the rest are afraid of being taken out in primaries.
Litlebritdifrnt
I was speaking to my mum this weekend. She had a dinner with her “conservative” group and they were all sitting around the dinner table basically saying WTF are the American conservatives doing? Are they truly willing to crash the world economy for the sake of party purity? Even a conservative pundit in the UK said that the entire American economy was being held hostage by “right wing crazies”
Fuck em. As I have said many, many times before, I have stocked up enough food that my DH and I could live on soup and pasta for 18 months or more. Go ahead you mother fuckers, you have no contingency plan, none. Tell me how well your plan worked when you are paying me $1,000 for a can of soup.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Wick: Lots of people thought I was just being cute when I named him the AOS, for “Actual Orange Satan.” But I saw this coming. He was a boozy hack when he was in Columbus and hasn’t changed since he got to DC (tobacco checks handed out on the house floor, anyone?) so it’s always been clear to me that he had zero ability to wrangle the beast that is the insane true believer faction of freshmen GOPers. He never stood a chance, the AOS didn’t. And we’re all gonna pay.
@Kathleen: According to the Inquisitor, ~200 of them actually did flock outside his local office in Westchester. Tea party lovers of the AOS, unite!
LarsThorwald
This can only end poorly.
me
@WaterGirl: Here.
licensed to kill time
@Mark S.:
Whenever the Republicans are asked to do something they break out the Lemon Pledges and start polishing turds.
Davis X. Machina
@JGabriel: Three years ago I put $20 into a faxitnice.com account. For sending a dozen faxes a year, and receiving maybe three or four, it works nicely, and there’s still a little left from the original deposit.
If you don’t need to receive, it’s even cheaper. 18 cents a page, IIRC.
Triassic Sands
As I listened to Obama tonight, I wondered why he hadn’t done this months ago. Why not lay out his case and ask the American people to contact their representatives and tell them to follow a balanced approach. Then I remembered — that would be using the bully pulpit and resort to the BP is considered BS here at BJ.
@Sarah in Brooklyn:
If that were the whole story, we’d probably have a happy ending. But after the president spoke, the Great Orange Boner got up and carefully re-characterized Obama’s words so that the part of the country known as Amurka could understand what’s needed. It was a truly historic exercise in lies and bullshit, but post-speech commentators helpfully pointed out the need for both sides to compromise — immediately after Boehner had informed them that no compromise was possible. Or, stated differently, we need a Republican-style compromise wherein the president and Democrats do exactly what the GOP wants and the GOP generously agrees not to demand more than everything.
gnomedad
The Annoying Orange.
WaterGirl
@ JGabriel
No… you just send an email that is addressed to a phone number @whereever the location of the software was, and your email arrived as a fax. Surely with all the techies around here someone is aware of some good email to fax software?
Edit: everything I’ve seen so far through google looks web-based, and you upload a file. That would work, too.
Edit 2: eFax costs money, so that’s out.
TooManyJens
@Violet:
Remember Pass the Damn Bill? We need Raise the Damn Ceiling.
My Congressman is one of the idiots who’s refusing to raise the ceiling. I called his district office to say I wanted him to vote for a deal, and his staffer was rude to me. He posted on his Facebook wall tonight “talk about what you thought of the President’s speech,” so I did, and my comment was deleted. He doesn’t give a shit.
If my back is better and I can actually walk tomorrow, I’m going to go picket his office.
MikeJ
@RareSanity: I think you can just unzip it.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
“Right wing nutters” , from I believe a member of the Cameron gov’t, but a LibDem, not a full Tory. “Nutters” is one of my favorite Britishisms.
Google says it was Vince Cable, Business Secretary
beltane
I feel like we’re failing our country. We’ve always been taught that the Germans were weak for letting the Nazis take over their country, and yet here we are, standing by while another group of evil, extremist creatures takes over our country. By all rights, the streets of Washington should be clogged with angry people demanding that the Tea Party Traitors be held accountable for their sabotage of the United States. But no, we’ll just sit here and let their little hate cult steal our money and leave us with nothing but memories of better times.
I hate these shitstains. All of them.
MazeDancer
For most of America, tonight may have been the first time they even noticed what was going on.
The President offered some excellent sound bites to help the probably soon to be panicked employees of large media conglomerates help educate the public that Something Has To Be Done.
ABC used “Countdown to Crisis” with a ticking clock on their lead-in screen. Lots of people don’t pay attention until the last minute. If Mr. Obama has to use the 14th Amendment or Congress needs cover for a clean bill at 11:59, America has to understand Something Has To Be Done.
DCLaw1
Like low-grade, malfunctioning robots, CNN’s reporters and “analysts” are still uncontrollably babbling false equivalences.
Both sides can’t come to a deal!
Both sides are playing to their bases!
Both sides are being partisan!
Both sides are digging in!
BOTH SIDES! BOTH SIDES! B-B-B-B-BOOOOOOOOOOTHHHHH… SSSSSSSSIIIIIIIIDES………. ERROR ERROR ERROR ERROR
The Dangerman
@jwb:
Not the intended person for that question and I am going to amend my previous position slightly.
If the markets are stable tomorrow, the deal is done.
If the markets take my previously predicted monster dump, we’re fucked.
Mr Stagger Lee
John Boehner reminds me of the Tom Berringer character in Platoon, who holds a gun to the head of the little girl and threatens to shoot her unless the village chieftain tells them where is the VC.
boss bitch
Boehner overheard leaving Capitol: “I didn’t sign up for going mano-a-mano with the President of the United States.”
Sasha
America: It Was a Nice Experiment While It Lasted.
priscianusjr
@Reality Check
beltane
@TooManyJens: Your Rep needs a visit from a crowd of citizens chanting “Teabag scum, here we come!”
Meh
Couple of things – one, if we default because of these assholes I’m shooting $250 to the dccc, $250 to the dscc, and $500 to Obama – two, my ass will be phone banking the shit out of VA in the next election.
Bottom line is that this is the death spiral of the GOP – you are watching, in real time, the demise of a modern political party in the USA. 20 years from now my kids will be talking about the GOP the way we talked about the Whig Party in middle school.
MomSense
@#30 DCLaw1
On MSNBC they were criticizing the President for not making news tonight but simply educating the public about the debt ceiling and then all the angst about missed opportunity, blah, blah, blah.
So of course I am talking to my teevee like a crazy person because the President wouldn’t have to make a speech to the nation if our media did their darn jobs and educated the public about the debt ceiling!
Texas Dem
Obama’s speech only makes sense if you assume he knows any sort of compromise is now impossible, and that he’s preparing for default. It will take a market reaction to move the House GOP. Remember TARP? We just have to hope it will be a very limited market reaction, as in a one day drop of the DOW, and not a Great Depression, Part Two. It’s sort of like the Cuban Missile Crisis, except that this time the Soviet ships steamed right past the blockade line, gave us the finger, and kept right on going. Now you either go to war or surrender. And surrender is out of the question.
Heliopause
Of course not, because the official BJ position is that Republicans are sociopaths who can’t be negotiated with.
priscianusjr
@Truri
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Kathy in St. Louis:
I like to think of this place as a walk through a park with friends. We see others talking in passing, note the beautiful sights and even comment on the occasional pile of dog shit that we come across during our walk.
You can guess
whatwho the piles of dog shit are.On some days the dogs crap all over the place and it’s hard to walk around but I still manage to do it and enjoy myself. No pie filter needed, I have my own mental shit list. I see one name, think ‘Oh, fuckwad…’ and skip over their drivel without a glance. I see another and think ‘Oh, goatfucker…’, and move along without commenting.
Goatfuckers are looking for goats to fuck. Don’t let them get yours! :)
Linda Featheringill
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: #51
It pleases me to think that so many people are responding to the president’s request.
You know, most folks never call their elected officials. Would be nice if they did.
Dexter
Well Asian markets are stable so far. Nikkei up by a little, Hang Seng down a little. Dow and S&P futures are down by around 0.3% or so. It could very well be that the Wall St. overlords know that a deal will be cooked.
RareSanity
@MikeJ:
That’s what I thought. The default OS X “archive utility” choked.
The shit just got real, time to go terminal mode…
ETA: Success! Good ole “unzip” never lets me down…
JC
3 Scenarios:
Boehner madman theory – he is pushing this as far as he can, before August 2nd, to extract as many concessions as he can, and then at the last minute, pocket the concessions, get the Village to praise him for ‘being flexible’. He’ll laugh all the way to the bank, and laugh about how weak the Dems are. Evidence – every single counter-offer from the Dems, are more and more in his direction.
The crazies are in control. They are SURE that Obama will cave, and give them what they want, and if he doesn’t, well, there’s always impeachment! Now THAT’S a fight worth having!
Obama rolling the Rethugs. 11th dimensional chess Master Obama-san, had this dialed in months ago (The O’donnell theory). Obama knew that these guys would never ‘make a deal’, and at the last minute, Obama/Boehner has 30 corporate Republican Reps in their pocket, to voice vote a raising of the debt ceiling. Sucks for Boehner, but they picked this fight, so all this counter-offering of cuts, Obama knows they won’t be accepted.
thoughts on this?
Marc
Default just won’t happen. Last minute deal or 14th amendment.
DCLaw1
MomSense: I heard that too. Most annoying was how Howard Fineman insisted that Obama should have pointed out that the Republican proposal would simply queue this madness up again in 6 months, when Obama did say that.
Poopyman
@The Dangerman: Just FYI, right now the Nikkei doesn’t give a rat’s ass.
MazeDancer
Beginning to think that Mr. Obama’s only current goal is to make sure this issue is not discussed next year.
That he will sign anything that raises the debt ceiling until past Nov 2012.
And the only cover he can use for signing something with no revenue is “Saving America”. And if he educates Americans that he Has To Do Something, then they’ll understand his Doing Anything.
And if he keeps this issue off the table for next year, then he can get other things done.
Alwhite
some of you seem to think the Republicans will be punished for the coming fuck up. Please remember that all elections are ‘local’ – they revolve around local, not national issues. And the most local of all with the fucking idiots that have voted us into this monumental fuck up is ‘taxes=bad’ and because the fucking idiots who voted us into this disaster believe that Republicans=no taxes/Democrats=more taxes my guess is it is the Ds that take it in the shorts & the tebaggers gain full control.
With any luck this thing I have is cancerous & I can die soon enough to not have to give a shit any more.
Dexter
What Boner is trying to do is simple. He wants to extract house and senate republicans from that odious Ryan budget. If Obama and democrats agree to Medicare, SS cuts then “see both sides do it, nothing to see here”. That is what is going on here IMO.
Keith G
@efgoldman
Still, win elections they often do.
Poopyman
@boss bitch: Source?
cleek
@Marc:
could someone please explain to me how the “14th amendment” solution works. in detail. no handwaving. no “and then a miracle happens” steps.
please?
sukabi
in case no one’s posted it, Boner was overheard after his presser lamenting:
“I didn’t sign up for going mano-a-mano with the President of the United States.”
J. Michael Neal
Dexter: I’m still glad I shorted everything in sight last week.
RareSanity
@cleek:
It’s a bit of legal massaging…in essence, the claim is that the President is empowered to take any necessary means to pay all legal debts incurred by the government.
My Truth Hurts
@cleek
The President instructs the treasury to ignore the debt limit and make all the payments. Someone, the House GOP presumably, then has to use the courts to stop him.
Karen
Obama’s biggest weakness is that he cares about people and the country.
The GOP’s biggest strength is that they don’t.
It’s like someone is saying “I’m going to kill everyone in your family if you don’t give me your baby boy to raise.” And that person has friends who are waiting with machetes.
What do you do? Do you give up your son to save everyone else in your family? Or do you call the cops and take that chance that your family will be dead by the time the cops arrest them?
Reality Check and Trurl have ice in their veins and would probably take the chance and call the cops and when the dead bodies of their families stared them in the face, they’d smile as the cops announced the perpetrators were in custody because they didn’t have to compromise.
eric
@dmsilev: they both like Pie
Cleek you rock!@
Trurl
So is Waxman.
They’re right.
Quiddity
Obama’s claim that the debt is a big problem – which I disagree with, but accept for the sake of argument – and requires shared sacrifice while protecting the vulnerable, could have been solved if he let all the Bush tax cuts expire last December. But, you say, won’t that hurt the economy? Yes, so you don’t do it right away. You let them expire two years from then, which is what would happen if no deal is made right now and if the president doesn’t extend them again.
There is a solution to the debt problem Obama talks about and meets his criteria for fairness: delay, but eventually roll back the Bush tax cuts. What, if anything, has Larry O’Donnell got to say about that approach?
magurakurin
That only works if there was a scene in which the Tom Berringer character is holding the detonating button on bomb rigged to the whole fire bases’ ammo supply and he is threatening to blow up everyone and everything unless the fire base refuses the next shipment of bullets.
But I agree that the Orange Man is a big of an asshole as that character in the movie Platoon.
Davis X. Machina
@Alwhite: Every wave election is a wave election — and not a plain-vanilla election — by virtue of the marginal seats that the majority gains. In 2006, a lot of places that never, or rarely, elect Democrats, did. (One reason why the Senate prospects are so bleak.) In 2010, the same thing happened, in a Republican seat. There are a lot of R marginals this go-round. Jim Oberstar’s seat referred to on another thread earlier is an example.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Wow. What did he think he was going to do? Sit in that fancy office and eat donuts while someone else did the job? Well, I guess since his Republican predecessor was Denny Hastert…
J. Michael Neal
cleek: It’s pretty simple. Obama declares that the debt ceiling is unconstitutional because of the debt repudiation clause of the 14th amendment. Then the Treasury sells some bonds.
Lit3Bolt
@ JC 104
Obama has Clinton’s example to turn to. The last time a Rep Majority leader tried to hold the government hostage Clinton just waited them out. When the public blames the Rs, a face saving deal gets hammered out. Corporate donors, angry that their looting was threatened by Republican tantrums, quietly support the Dem Presidents’ reelection.
jrg
This bullshit could cost me a great deal of money, you fucking moron. Money I earned. What the hell is wrong with you people?
MikeBoyScout
@104 JC,
While I’d love to believe there’s a good scenario, I see the no deal, no bill and 14th amendment crisis with its impeachment surprise.
Now drink your Hemlock TEA and enjoy.
Reality Check
@127
Should’ve bought gold.
RareSanity
@eric:
I don’t see what the problem is, everything they say is “REDACTED”…what’s all the fuss?
suzanne
Here’s some cute to counteract the madness.
And some more.
Maude
@beltane:
94 WIN
Scott
My letter to my representative is typed, printed, in an envelope, stamped, addressed, and ready to go in the mailbox tomorrow morning. He’s a Republican weasel, but ya gotta do something…
Marc
#113: Brad Delong had a pretty simple summary:
The debt limit increase preceded the last budget. There are therefore 2 conflicting laws, and a statement in the constitution that the US can’t repudiate its debts. Obama therefore announces that he is paying the bills because 1) the constitution says so and 2) when laws conflict, the more recent one takes precedence.
I suspect that is why (according to Kleiman) there is no contingency planning for a shutdown. Obama won’t let one happen.
WaterGirl
@ me
Thanks for the link to the free fax!
Cain
@118 Karen
Just like in Superman II when General Zod figured out that Kal-El actually cared about the people on the planet.
beltane
@Alwhite: Please don’t say that. It is too depressing. I hope I live long enough to see the Republicans and their supporters pay for their crimes.
Spaghetti Lee
@AlWhite
The Republicans have pretty much reached high tide in terms of how many seats they can win in the house. Even if they do pick up a few more marginal ones next year (OK-2, for example), some of the ones they lost this year will bounce back (MN-8, IL-17, etc.). Now, granted that doesn’t mean much in terms of stopping them from fucking everything up now, but they have about all the seats they can.
Dexter
Boner in plain English: All I wanted is free fancy booze and a nice office.
MojoQuestor
Been tryin’ since Big Orange stopped talking to contact mah US Repcritter via house.gov. Getting nothing but “Server too Busy”. I don’t use it a lot so I don’t know for sure, but I *hope* this means the House is getting an earful–and from predominately non-teahadis. I do have a hopeful image that a lot of Americans fired up the emails, etc. after Obama spoke. Perhaps I’m too optimistic, but I’d love it if the non-insane 73% brought the heat to the House.
Canuckistani Tom
Until the last few weeks, the only way anyone would have thought the USA would have defaulted was if a 10 klick asteroid hit or the Yellowstone supervolcano went off.
The markets have been reluctant to respond because the USA is the basic financial foundation of our globalized economy. You do not f’ck with your foundation easily or willingly, because it’s very easy for everything to come crashing down. But when it does happen…
My worry today was that someone was going to hack one of the news services again and report that China was dumping T-bills left right & centre, and then the whole thing would have stampeded to the bottom.
Karen
The GOP knows they’re fucked if they let people actually vote. That’s why all of these laws to stop people from being able to vote are being passed. And after Walker passed a law of people needing to get IDs to vote, he has now closed a whole bunch of DMV offices in specific areas…
If that doesn’t work for them, I figure there will be more threats against minorities who vote, funding taken away from election polling places or if they can’t do that, they’ll pass a law only letting a few people vote at a time and only having it open for two hours.
Just look at what’s happening and you tell me I’m crazy.
MojoQuestor
Been trying since Boehner stopped talking to contact mah US Repcritter via house.gov. Getting nothing but “Server too Busy”. I don’t use it a lot so I don’t know for sure, but I *hope* this means the House is getting an earful–and from predominately non-teahadis. I do have a hopeful image that a lot of Americans fired up the emails, etc. after Obama spoke. Perhaps I’m too optimistic, but I’d love it if the non-insane 73% brought the heat to the House.
Edit: Hmm, now “Server Too Busy” has become “Service Unavailable.” I wonder if that’s better or worse?
Reality Check
Made up quotes from CBS News? You all are pathetic.
Corner Stone
@jwb:
Now more than ever. The speech by President Obama was a calming, adult, cover speech for Boehner to be the jerk he has to be at this point.
People act like Boehner hasn’t been the guy handing straight fucking checks to House members on the floor his whole career.
The dude knows when he’s fucked, and knows when the checks are coming due. He’s like the Ohio version of Drunken Monkey Kung-Fu. He’s hand and fist in it with the president.
IMO, a deal is cooked.
Davis X. Machina
@Spaghetti Lee: Losing OK-2 to a Republican isn’t going to make a lot of difference. Boren, IIRC, was one of 5 Democrats to vote for Stop, Drop, and Roll, or whatever the hell the called it.
Texas Dem
Thank God I didn’t open a 401k this year. Looks like I’m going to need that money for the fruit and vegetable stand I’m opening August 4.
J. Michael Neal
suzanne: Wow. You provided cute, and a baby, too! Just for that, I’m going to have to respond with a kitten flossing his teeth!
Tyro
The Congressional offices of most reps are closed. So if people are actually attempting to do what President said and call their reps what they’re getting is a ringing phone.
Send a fax.
KS in MA
Do any of you recall O explicitly asking voters to contact their Congresscritters at any time since he was inaugurated? I don’t, and I think it’s high time.
Great that the websites are crashing. I’m going to call my deep-blue Rep tomorrow and tell him I love him, and I’ll swallow my bile and call that *&^$##@ Scott Brown too.
And, maybe we should all call CNN tonight while we’re waiting for Congress to open in the morning.
CaliCat
Howard Fineman was absolutely terrible on MSNBC tonight. He was contorting himself to find ways to criticize the president’s speech.
The president was reasoned and sensible but that can’t be pointed out by Village whore, Fineman.
Fuck Howard Fineman and the rest of the worthless DC press.
And fuck Republicans, of course.
Mark S.
I wonder if these dipshit Congressmen will get a lot of calls when SS checks don’t go out.
The Dangerman
I don’t see the 14th solution; I would have to amend my previous position yet again and say invoking the 14th gets you impeachment.
There is either a deal that isn’t ready to be revealed (I’d still be far from surprised by a Clean Bill, both sides live to fight another day)…
…or we are headed for a short term stoppage of all but the essentials.
The overseas being quiet is good news; maybe what I saw as Boehner’s giant “FU” was just Boehner overplaying his role. In which case, this is going to the VERY last minute.
Meh
@rc – lol u mad bro?
boss bitch
@Poopyman:
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/07/25/278924/boehner-overheard-leaving-capitol-i-didnt-sign-up-for-going-mano-a-mano-with-the-president-of-the-united-states/
Kathy in St. Louis
Odie Hugh Manatee@100. Thanks for the kind words on my frustration. You sound like my kids, who think I’m going to stroke out over this particular issue. It’s hard to keep calm when there are so many rude weasels all over the place just looking for a fight. I will try to keep your advice in mind.
Texas Dem
I’d send my House representative a fax, but an 800 point drop in the Dow tomorrow would do far more to move his crazy Tea party ass towards some sort of compromise.
gbear
Sorry, but does Reality Check realize just how incredibly lame it is to have John Boehner as a hero? He might as well walk around with a sign on his back saying ‘I have no dick’.
Yutsano
Well, so much gfor getting any further paychecks. Although our union announced we’re all released from our contracts if we don’t get paid.
Marc
#152: 2/3 of the Senate voting to remove Obama isn’t happening. Not a single Democrat would vote against him. No way that 20 of them would.
Especially if he prevented a financial collapse in the process.
Stan of the Sawgrass
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaafuck.
I deliberately watched Obama’s address on Fux, plus The Boner’s response. BJ readers will appreciate this: Shep Smith did the commentary afterwards! Doesn’t Fux usually have one of their typical shills do the so-called commentary? And after The Boner’s spew, Smith ran down the bullet points, but , re OrangeJudas’s line about Cap-and-Screwyou being “bipartisan”. Smith quote: “Five Democrats doesn’t make it much of a bi-partisan bill.” That doesn’t make Smith a raving Moderate, but he’s certifiably kind-of-sane. Consider the company he keeps, and his keepers. Could this mean that even Fux is worried? ‘Scuse me while I cash out my 401K.
boss bitch
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Donuts with scotch on the rocks or whatever he usually chugs.
Another Bob
I can see now how brilliantly Obama’s and the Dems plan to cater to bullshit Republican rhetoric about government debt is working out. Don’t get me wrong, the Republicans are evil thugs, but I can’t help feeling that the Dems have painted themselves into a corner. Almost by design, it would seem. For at least the past year, lots of liberal commentators were warning that changing the focus from jobs to debt was a mistake. It hasn’t appeased the Republicans, only emboldened them. They were never serious about debt anyway. It’s been pure bullshit all along — so why play along? The administration has undermined the liberal position, all to gain nothing whatsoever. At this point, I think it’s a fair question to ask how much collusion there is between Democrats and Republicans. This can’t be explained by just poor negotiating skills. This “crisis” is purely for public consumption, and the end result, as usual, will be Joe Sixpack and his elderly mom being defrauded and robbed. The least the Democrats could have done is not play along with this charade.
Elie
suzanne:
Your baby is darling… I remember when you were pregnant with her last year and waiting waiting waiting — like now — only way different…
Thanks for sharing her pics with us
The Spy Who Loved Me
I blame the corporate jet owners. The way Obama has spent the last couple of weeks vilifying them, you just know they’re evil.
Shawn in ShowMe
@JC
He hasn’t extracted any concessions, unless you consider cuts to defense, provider payments and winding down two wars as concessions.
The only thing that the above scenario ensures is Cantor getting Boehner’s job.
jl
The ‘it’s all a crooked done deal between Obama and the Soaked Orange’ theory forgets that any legislation has to get through the Senate.
So, is Harry Reid in on the plot too?
And also too besides in addition, too many genuine psychotic nutsos in the House GOP.
Comrade Kevin
@J. Michael Neal:
Would you buy bonds issued under those circumstances?
Karen
I work with international currencies every day and according to the WSJ, the Euro is worth $1.43.75, approximately the same as it was yesterday. So hopefully, the damage isn’t done yet.
cleek
@My Truth Hurts:
@J. Michael Neal:
more details please.
who will buy these bonds? what risks do they entail? does the Pres actually have the authority to authorize them? who pays them back, if Congress did not authorize them? etc.. and yes, what @Comrade Kevin said.
surely, some smart economist has gone through all this stuff already somewhere, right?
MomSense
@DCLaw1 #106
That comment got me too. I don’t think the pundits actually listen to what the President says.
suzanne
@JMN:
Damn, that kitteh is ADORABLE! Looks much like my Scout, which is a compliment of the highest order.
Good luck with your treatment. You’re in my thoughts.
Keith G
Until the legal status of those bonds was established, who would buy them at what interest rate?
Edit: Cleek beat me to that inquiry
boss bitch
@KS in MA:
While he hasn’t told them to do so on national tv, I get e-mails all the time asking me to do so on every issue.
Meh
People need to calm down – please remember that Obama ain’t some country bumpkin fresh off the turnip truck. He’s probably one of the smartest people in THE WORLD. By the time the GOP bobble heads figure that out he will be in their base killin their doodz.
J. Michael Neal
Yutsano: One of your coworkers has decided to add to my stress levels. I thought telling me that I figured the 7.5% of gross income reduction of my medical expenses was wrong because I miscalculated my gross income was a fabulous touch.
Cassidy
Screw it. Let them start their civil war. I’d stay in the Army for some of that.
Comrade Luke
Unbelievable:
Wisconsin: Walker Shuts Down DMV Offices in Democratic Areas After Passing Voter ID Law
Texas Dem
The 14th Amendment solution will never work because no one in his right mind would ever buy a bond that is issued under a cloud of title. And it might start a civil war, if you believe what some of the Tea Party crazies in my office are saying.
The Dangerman
@JC:
Perhaps a dumb question, but Boehner caused me to go +? on this weeknight…
…but voice vote would have to mean clean bill, right? I could see that happening.
WaterGirl
Here’s what I worry about –
If you are a no/low information voter, how do you know who to believe? If you don’t already know what’s going on, you won’t know Boner lied tonight, time and time again.
So they believe whoever you have always tended to agree with, right?
So what did this speech get us? Or was this speech intended as a neutral middle to the Friday speech and whatever comes next, when the shit starts to hit the fan?
MazeDancer
@peej:
Even if you have great Democratic representation, call anyway. It’s good to remind them that people listen to the President. That the President has clout, and they better get energetic in their support.
I’m going to say that tomorrow when I can finally get through to my Liberal Deep Blue Rep: “I’m doing what the President said and calling my Representative.”
Also, any one who has a t-Party rep. Sympathies to you. But it’s important for them to notice the President has clout, too. So call even if it feels hopeless.
JC
Comrade Luke,
These guys aren’t fucking around. Votor apathy, distraction, plus media ‘couldn’t care less if it’s not he said-she said’, means these guys are pushing all this messed up crap.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
A real clean bill? Or whatever that unconstitutional piss-ant cop-out plan McConnell came up with? I don’t see the chinless one (and Jim Demint) letting a clean bill through the Senate.
CatHairEverywhere
Here is what I sent to my Idiot R congressman. he is a member of the Congressional leadership, so I don’t expect him to take it to heart.
Please work with Democrats to pass a compromise that will raise the debt ceiling for the next couple of years. Cut, Cap and Balance is nonsense. I am a member of the middle class, and I am tired of watching the rich get richer, while my wages remain stagnant and every basic need increases in price. There is no reason not to allow the Bush tax cuts on the rich to expire. Doing so will go a long way toward addressing the deficit, and is a fiscally responsible thing to do. I just can’t believe how dysfunctional Congress is these days. America is supposed to lead the world, not squabble like a bunch of preschoolers.
J. Michael Neal
suzanne: Scout is gorgeous. However, Harry is a medium hair. He looks more like a small Eddie, except with two ears and four legs.
maya
.
Spaghetti Lee
If you are a no/low information voter, how do you know who to believe?
From what I’ve seen (and I’m obviously biased, so just take that into account), Obama came off as more polite and reasonable than Boehner. Obama was trying to explain a policy issue for people who might not know about it, and Boehner was trying to shore up his previously-in-doubt Teabagger cred. If I’m an independent relatively unaware of the machinations behind it all, I’m probably thinking Obama came off better.
NamelessGenXer
@Nicole
The technology fail is strong in circa 1952 Republican World. Case in Point: http://www.RNC.com
@Meh
Every 80 years, like clockwork. Also too, I am already donating my mad skills and 25 years of IT experience working on OFA databases to house the results of all your phonebanking.
We the People, babeeeeee!
Corner Stone
@boss bitch:
Yutsano
To JMN: (commenting on phone so no reply)
Okay, I know which office sent that. I can’t get into too much specific advice but usually those can be fixed by a 1040X. But call the sdpecific office before you do it, they have particular rules about it.
My Truth Hurts
@cleek
Magic!
Zyla
With Regard to Shepard Smith, he’s been there so long he can pretty much do and say anything he wants. He’s mocked Glenn Beck on multiple occasions, has utterly eviscerated idiot republicans that come on, he’s a pretty decent guy, all in all.
Literally no job is safer at Fox than his, and he knows it.
Elie
Watergirl:
At some point, if you are leading an effort, you just move with it. I think that tonight’s speech was designed to be the last spurr to the awareness of the American people – the last “pitch’. The next steps were already basically decided over the weekend. War. The Repubs, just like the Conferates in the Civil War, cannot compromise or accept anything other than to command from what they want. They know they might not win, but consider themselves to be heroes for “the cause”… same term used for the vanquished confederates after the Civil War… its a sourthern thing…
Sherman must be spinning in his grave.
suzanne
@Yutsano:
I can’t reply even on my Mac. Super annoying.
jl
@180: Texas Dem.
I think the debt ceiling law has collapsed under examination. There will be half a dozen work arounds to keep the money flowing. A little 14 th amendment for this, a little conflict of laws for that, a little Treasury magic for something else.
Anyway, there will still be a secondary market to guide what interest rates will be for ‘new’ debt with the uncertainty of payment. Felix Salmon in a recent post explained how to issue new debt in a way so that old ‘good’ securities cannot be distinguished from ‘clouded’ new securities.
This whole bogus crisis is all a laughable pile o’ garbage. Too bad people will be seriously hurt because of it.
If Obama uses all the means he has available to get the money paid, the sense I get from respectable finance blogs is that the money will be paid.
Edit: and I forgot a little Treasury/Fed check kiting scheme that has been discussed in several econ and fianance blogs.
beltane
@Cassidy: If they start a Civil War, does that mean my local teabaggers will emigrate to be with their brethren? Sounds appealing.
Spaghetti Lee
I’m not too familiar with the ins and outs of how to contact your rep, so is it better to get angry or to appear as reasonable as possible? I mean, I’d love to call Roskam’s staffer and say “Tell your shit-eating sonofabitch boss that he better damn well etc. etc.” just to get it out, but I’m not sure that would help. Should I say that I used to support him, but this stuff has changed my mind, or should I outright say that I’m a Democrat and I’m going to work my damnedest to vote him out of office next year? (I’ll probably be redistricted into Joe Walsh’s district, so should I call him instead?) I’d appreciate any answers.
Rhoda
Fuck.
Everyone keeps saying that Boehner agrees the USA can’t default, no shit. But that doesn’t mean he can do jack shit about it. I feel like we’re living through the Emperor has no clothes; only it’s the fact that the tea party won’t raise the debt ceiling. And no one will acknowledge that fact until it happens and once it happens, no one knows how to process the fact that the foundation of the global financial system was just crashed by “right wing nutters.”
What the fuck happened to our overlords? Shouldn’t they have stopped this shit already?
boss bitch
first you decide who’s better looking and then who makes more sense.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Reasonable and polite. Odds are you’re talking to a 19 year old intern, I think.
I’m going to throw in something about my disappointment at unemployment not being addressed by the Congress. Yes I’m going to concern-troll my congresscritter.
Tom
Some have mentioned Mr. Walsh of Illinois who is illustrative of just what populates the Tea Nation. Dead beat, defaulted on mortgages, failed to pay taxes, but to the Tea Nation he is a fiscal conservative. But the country has always had idiots and those who support them, but in this case the supposedly sane citizens elected him. Now he stands tall for defaulting on the national debt, at least, he is consistent since he already has defaulted on personal debt.
All I can say is that the morons who elected him deserve to have their voting rights taken away.
cleek
no offense to anyone here, but this 14th Amendment stuff sounds to me like something the reflexively anti-Obama contingent has ginned up so they’ll have something to be mad about when things fall apart.
“b.b.b.b.but, he could’ve used the 14th amendment! Bill Clinton said so!”
as i see it (being neither economist nor constitutional scholar) unless the president can:
1: require Congress to spend money (to pay the debt he issues)
or
2: raise money himself (to pay the debt he issues)
there’s no way he can issue debt without Congress saying so.
gf120581
Frankly, Obama did what he had to do. He looked reasonable and, well, presidential, while the Drunk Weepy Oompa-Loompa came off like a lesser Die Hard villain. Sorry, DWOL, you’re no Hans Gruber.
At this point, the DWOL’s belligerence is all for show. I think Boner knows he’s fucked, he just is trying to act all tough and fire-breathing so when he makes his deal, the teabaggers don’t fire him.
Thymezone
I’ve got ten bucks for the first two front pagers who want to bet on default. There will be no default. Of course, we need to define what we think that is. If we are paying on debt and not paying on something else, so as not to default on the debt .. is that default? I am betting that before midnight on August 2, or on whatever new day is set forth as the drop dead date, the day after which we start shuffling payments … the debt limit will be raised before the start of business on the first day of bill paying affected by a default. Ten bucks for each of the first two front pagers that want the wager.
Note that if the last ditch avoidance is ugly and clumsy enough, the nation’s credit rating may be adversely affected anyway. That is not part of the wager. The wager is based entirely on bill payment after the designated drop dead date, which as of today is taken to be Aug 2. If the Treasury moves that date then the wager moves with it.
MikeJ
I am sick of the Mariners trying to compromise with the FY.
J. Michael Neal
Yutsano: Actually, I started by sending them another copy of my Schedule D with the list attached. Every single security transaction they said was on the 1099 OptionXpress sent them that I didn’t include in my income was, in fact, on my Schedule D and attached list.
Someone in that office either lost my Schedule D, or can’t read.
aisce
@ rhoda
they don’t run things anymore with the far right. they caused a recession. the shroud of infallibility and control was shredded. and their monster isn’t going to listen to them anymore.
john galt doesn’t have a boss…
jl
@204
Congress has already spent the money through the legislative budgetary process. Obama tried to explain that in his speech.
That very fact is the source of whole genus of means Obama can use to ignore the debt limit.
MBunge
“What the fuck happened to our overlords? Shouldn’t they have stopped this shit already?”
The overlords has always been the wrong analogy because it implies they really have control over stuff.
A better one is Dr. Frankenstein. They created a monster. It’s now rampaging through the countryside. The only thing that will stop it is the whole village going apeshit and hunting it down with torches and dogs. Default is the little girl who gets killed and sparks the village frenzy.
Mike
WaterGirl
@ Spaghetti Lee
IMO, they are probably just putting hash marks (for or against) on some piece of paper or clicking some button – for it, against it. I think if you piss them off, they might not click the link or add the hash mark. I think the one thing that does matter is to say you live in their district so they know you are a constituent. I would contact both your current guy and your expected guy.
Maybe take less time on the phone so more calls can get through?
Also, I have heard multiple times over the years that a fax is more effective than a phone call. If you google faxzero, you will find a free way to send a fax from their website. That’s what I’m going to do tomorrow.
Just one person’s opinion – hope this helps.
Scott
What the fuck happened to our overlords? Shouldn’t they have stopped this shit already?
The overlords tried, but they’d already given the crazies the keys to the house and the gun cabinet and everything else. The crazies told the overlords to get lost.
J. Michael Neal
I do have a new essay up on my blog, for those who have been following: Masaharu Homma and the Doctrine of Command Responsibility.
Comrade Luke
Investing overseas.
Kathy in St. Louis
We need a list of all the Tea Reps. Those are the folks that need contacting. I’d like to wring the neck of every old hoveround riding, Uncle Sam suit wearing teabagging Fox News junkie in their districts, too. but that would take more energy than I have.
It’s really depressing to think just how undereducated the average American citizen really is. That half these yahoos ever got to Congress shows you that H.L. Mencken was right. No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.
boss bitch
@cleek:
I agree.
signifyingmnky
Should we default, a goal the Republicans now seem clearly intent on, one lesson should be blindingly clear to the American people:
This is what happens when you elect (or refuse to vote against) people who don’t believe the government works to run the government.
WaterGirl
@ boss bitch – hey, you made me laugh!
Rome Again
@Trurl:
Dream on!
Martin
Obama isn’t going to ignore the debt ceiling. His approach here has been quite consistent – he’s going to go for the big solution and while he’ll do what he can to ease the pain, if the rules call for some pain, then some pain is what we’ll feel. That’s what the DADT approach was, and it’s what he’s done on quite a few other things. He doesn’t always do it, and he doesn’t always get it right, but that seems to be his standard formula.
Nope, I think this is going to hurt. It’s going to hurt some a lot more than others – and that’ll be Obama’s call, but it’s going to hurt. Of course the left will attack him for not issuing an executive order for a $2T nickel or something, but I’m pretty sure that’s what he’s going to do if there’s no bill.
if there *is* a bill, one that he doesn’t like, well, I just don’t know. But that’s a problem Harry Reid is going to have to unravel first, and I don’t know how that’s going to go either.
Maude
@WaterGirl:
The markets are calm. The prez talked about working with the Repubs. People get really ticked off at the bickering. They hear the prez say let’s work together. They hear Boehner say, we’ll huff and we’ll puff and we’ll blow your house down…right after last call.
People know about this because it has gone on long enough to sink in that this is a real crisis looming, not a fake one.
Obama did a wonderful Cliff Notes on what the debt ceiling is and why it would be awful not to raise it. It was simple and short.
Boehner wasn’t talking about solving the problem.
Some people are low info voters because they work two jobs and raise kids. The stupid ones are prolly teatards.
jwb
Corner Stone: That’s some clairvoyance there, answering me just before I ask the question.
JGabriel
@WaterGirl:
Oops, sorry. I used to know all the good fax/modem stuff, but that was over a decade ago when I still used dial-up at home.
.
Linda Featheringill
@Texas Dem:
The fresh produce stand sounds wonderful! All kinds of good luck!
Comrade Luke
The thing that pissed me off more than anything was Boehner’s statement:
Really? That’s the only option? What about finding ways to bring in more money?
It’s infuriating that no one talk about that side of things, and that so many Americans that are themselves working multiple jobs in order to pay of their own debts don’t see that as an option.
Comrade Kevin
@Kathy in St. Louis: There’s a list of the members of the Teabagger caucus in congress in this Wikipedia page.
jinxtigr
Hah. I love that Shep Smith wised off about the ‘bipartisan’ nonsense. He just looks and acts like such a Confederate heartthrob, positively Bo Duke, and yet he keeps popping up with a voice of not-batshit :)
I think the very interesting question becomes: if we (the Left) get the Overlords and MSM to change sides and join us against the Tea Party, it will be because the Tea Party cost the Overlords a lot of money. So… what would that look like and how do we reinforce it?
Clearly the agenda becomes, ‘encourage a more socialized economy that’ll support a middle class and consumption for the benefit of business’. Clearly the need for this will be reluctantly established… so how to reinforce it?
Bernie Sanders is trying to set up socialized medicine here in Vermont so with a bit of luck I’ll have some degree of protection :)
Jeff Spender
I hate to sound this awful, but at this point, I don’t care. I just want the damn thing raised so I can get on with my life and stay in school with my awesome student loans.
Short term pain, yes. Hopefully–maybe–Americans won’t be so god-damn stupid in the future.
Slim chance, but hope springs eternal.
Marc
cleek: Let’s look at it another way. Congress passed a bill mandating spending. There are a series of bills making things “entitlements”. There are soldiers in the field. Now if the debt limit is real you, in effect, have violated numerous laws.
It is therefore far, far from unreasonable to say that defaulting under these circumstances simply can’t happen. The Congress is perfectly within its rights to shut the government down or to change the budget. But this isn’t about the budget – it’s about the debt limit.
The people talking about this are not stupid and they are not uninformed. Bill Clinton isn’t an internet crackpot. Neither is the Treasury Secretary.
Obama won’t do this if he has a choice because it’ll roil the markets. But if there is no debt extension then he will do it – because the alternative is worse.
Thymezone
@cleek #204 — your post makes no sense to me.
The debt limit only applies to payments on debt already incurred (the money is already spent), and all such debt is incurred by congress with either presidential signature or veto override. Obama by himself can incur no debt, right? He can only authorize payments out of the treasury to make payments due on debts already assumed.
Your post seems to conflate the debt limit with the assumption of new debt … unless I misread it.
The Dangerman
There used to be some web based fax services that were free, but you had to agree to sending along an add with the Fax; with any luck, the add would be for some Escort Service or similarky debauched.
sukabi
What the fuck happened to our overlords? Shouldn’t they have stopped this shit already?
Our ‘overlords’ have been busy stoking the paranoid fears of mental patients, have opened the doors to the asylum and set them loose with all the guns and ammo they can carry… and are now surprised that their inmates won’t calmly walk back into their padded cells…
Mark S.
Well, that didn’t take long:
Conservatives denounce Boehner plan
Has there ever been a weaker Speaker than Boner? Can he tell his caucus to do anything?
Violet
@Spaghetti Lee:
Here’s Tim F’s excellent list of what to do when you call your Rep. He wrote it up during the health care debate.
From my experience, be polite and say what you want them to do. “I’d like Senator/Representative X to compromise and vote to raise the debt ceiling.” You can also include the other stuff (raising taxes on the rich, whatever) but make your main point short and easily understood.
I’d call both your current rep and the one whose district you’ll be in after redistricting. Never hurts to call around.
Don’t forget to call your Senators.
YoohooCthulhu
Well, I think we’ve officially entered constitutional crisis territory. The funny thing is, in the long term, this will result in the end of the debt ceiling as something that can be used for leverage AT ALL. That’s what happens when you push your negotiating position too far.
Also, depending on the absurdity of the subsequent impeachment and heightened Tea Party intransigence after Obama ignores the debt ceiling, I think we could end up with substantial changes to congress/executive power. It’s just that a) it’s not guaranteed these will be democratic changes and b) they’ll essentially come at the expense of greater economic hardship.
Oh well, peasants always lose in the Revolution anyway.
jwb
The Dangerman: I don’t think the markets know anything but simply believe that Obama won’t let anything truly horrible happen. The markets may well be right so far as that goes, but I don’t see any movement on the debt ceiling until after things get pretty desperate—and I think the Goopers will impeach before they break ranks on this.
When do the next set of appropriation bills have to be passed by? Because that’s certain to be a clusterfuck as well.
Spaghetti Lee
Conservatives denounce Boehner plan
Jesus Christ, what’s there to denounce? He went full metal teabagger tonight-he didn’t talk about compromise at all. Are they mad because he didn’t specifically say that every widow and orphan in America will be summarily executed?
jl
@221
“$2T nickel”
Probably not the best choice to start coughing up the dough. But I find it difficult to believe Obama will not use all means available to ignore the limit. Otherwise, the effect of the shortfall will be unsupportable and risk economic crisis.
But you make a good point. One of the President’s tools to end the crisis soon after there is not enough money would simply be to prioritize who gets paid and who does not efficiently, and with the country’s best interests in mind (ie, zero out any cash to GOP House constituencies who won’t die right away without the money).
MazeDancer
@Rhoda: @jinxtigr:
It may have already started. ABC’s “Countdown to Crisis” slide to intro the President’s speech and the ticking debt clock to “crisis” is pretty much siding with compromise must happen fast idea.
And note, that’s also endorsing the Tea Party idea of doing nothing equals crisis.
Going to watch the media this week even though I’d given up TV news. Because I’m wondering if the big corps are going to say: Enough pushing the “both sides” crap. We don’t want a fight anymore, we want no default. Start supporting the President.
After August 2nd, with crisis averted, they’ll go back to their regular “both sides” malarky
MomSense
Anyone watching Lawrence O’Donnell with Reps Andrews and Blackman?
Comrade Luke
@Spaghetti Lee:
And Cantor is non-existent right now.
slag
@KS in MA:
During AHCA, OFA put out a call to contact our reps. After that, nothing but cash solicitations and maybe a vague letter-to-the-editor request or two. Although, to be fair, the Democrats have finally fallen victim to my Google rules, and for the last month all their communiques have been auto-archived pre-inbox.
MikeJ
@MomSense:
Giant heads or heads of the Giants?
Maybe not much difference between the two.
Barb (formerly Gex)
beltane That would be nice, but these guys are terrorists. They want to blend in with the locals so we can’t tell who’s blue and who’s gray. Besides, they’re the “real” Americans, why should they have to leave?
Ugh. Trying not to hate, because I would become just like them.
Kathy in St. Louis
Comrade Kevin…Thank you. My rep. predates the Tea Party, but he joined up. Todd Akin, R.Asshole, Missouri. Utterly, the worst representative in Congress, hands down. I’d guess that’s about a 40 way tie, but he’s there, nonetheless. Thanks for the link.
slag
@Corner Stone: What will you concede to if you’re wrong?
NR
Poor Obama. If only the Republicans would let him cut Social Security and Medicare like he wants to.
MomSense
@MikeJ
Wow he really looks like a Giant Easter Island Head! Hopefully we will still be here when football season starts.
Cassidy
Go ahead and hate. These things aren’t worth the decency. They aren’t even people. The sooner they go away the better.
Martin
Here’s the problem as I see it:
According to the daily schedule, by 8/3 we have no cash reserves at all. We bring in $12B in revenues and have to pay out $32B in bills, including $23B in SS. Let’s say we only pay $12B, and send the other $20B owed an IOU.
On 8/4, $91B in bonds mature. We bring in $4B in revenue that day, and have $10B in bills. We’re at the limit, so the only bonds we’re actioning are to replace ones we’ve already cleared. We don’t have $91B to clear the ones on 8/4. There are auctions for 4, 13,and 26 week bills that day, so Geithner could do a little slight of hand and hold those auctions (technically exceeding the debt limit) in order to clear the $91B. But the question is – can he auction $91B or does the $20B in IOUs count as ‘debt’. It should. It’s owed. He could then only auction $71B under the limit, and could make whole $71B+$4B (revenue from that day) in bonds, and default on $15B. Hopefully SSA and the Thrift Savings and other government entities have $15B maturing that day, because he’d choose to default on that. By the time the next round of Treasuries come due on 8/11, we’re just fucked, because the $93B that mature that day simply can’t be paid, no matter what.
There’s a lot of interpretation in there of what constitutes violating the debt limit. Technically, you can’t repay the $91B until you’ve floated additional debt to pay it off, but if we’re only looking at ‘end of day’ balances, then they could swing it, but only once. If the IOUs don’t count as debt, then we can play this game for a little while, but by the end of the month even that runs out. We’ve been using tricks for 2 1/2 months now. At some point you simply run out of tricks.
DCLaw1
MomSense, I finally just had to turn it all off. Is it terrible? O’Donnell can be good, but if you mean Marsha Blackburn, the black hole of her mendacity can swallow nearly any amount of nearby sense.
SIA
I’m on a fucking plane going to Denver and reading about all this. Flight was four hours late departing, I have what will surely be a 10 hr mtg tomorrow. And now the fucking GOP is breaking the country again??! Surreal, bizarre, and unnecessary.
TX Expat
@cleek:
The 14th amendment thing is of dubious constitutionality.
Forget the economists, listen to the lawyers on this one.
BTW, for those of you who say that the President can declare a law unconstitutional, no he can not. Only a court can declare a law unconstitutional and only the Supreme Court can make it stick.
MBunge
“I don’t think the markets know anything but simply believe that Obama won’t let anything truly horrible happen.”
Which is another problem. A nice 300 point drop in the Dow tomorrow would probably solve this damn thing.
Mike
jwb
Corner Stone: So this is all Kabuki to help Boehner keep the Speaker’s chair?
jl
“There’s a lot of interpretation in there of what constitutes violating the debt limit.”
But Obama and the Treasury decide what the interpretation is, right? And once you get a dollar out the door, you can’t tell one dollar from the next. Boehner and Ryan and Cantor don’t get to wander around the Treasury and the Fed sticking their noses into the hourly money mechanics, do they?
“At some point you simply run out of tricks.”
I think the
tricksbest efforts to see that Constitution is followed, and laws (note, that is laws, not one crummy stupid goofy debt limit law) are faithfully executed, will provide some room in August for a late deal.At that point, Boehner will know what Obama’s intentions are, and will have more information on whether it is good idea to destroy his caucus with an impeachment.
Alex
Impressive fail from The Daily Show tonight. :(
Elie
Yes, the 14th amendment is of dubious constitutionality. But if you are Obama, is default a better option than the risk he would take in being likely impeached? Both options bring chaos. Which chaos is better for the country?
sukabi
the ratings agencies are letting the R’s know that Boner’s plan will cause a downgrade, but Reid’s plan will leave our rating AAA ..
Trurl
IOKIYO.
See “knowing violation of the War Powers Act”.
Reality Check
Looks like Obama pissed off his base:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/07/25/998373/-Compromise-My-Ass?via=siderec
Democrat civil war anyone?
Triassic Sands
@Scott:
Scott, send a fax. Apparently, because of the threat of mail-borne terrorism, snail mail takes forever to get to the addressee. August may have come and gone by the time your rep reads your letter.
AAA Bonds
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
Barb (formerly Gex)
@249 – I can’t go there. Dehumanizing and othering is what they do. You already called them things. But what I see is a lot of human beings who have fallen prey to propaganda that they are vulnerable to because this government no longer works for the bottom 90%.
Like I said, I don’t want to be like one of them.
AA Bonds
What do you think, too soon?
boss bitch
@WaterGirl:
my good deed for the day.
MojoQuestor
Well, the House site finally rolled over for me, so I got a couple of faxes off to my Republican Representative (one to his DC office, one to his local office). Thanks to Poopyman @23 and Davis X. Machina @40 (and anyone else) for pointing out that faxes may carry more punch than emails. I hadda use Faxzero, so I have no idea if the ads that will appear will cause them to be spam-binned, but at least it’s worth a shot.
Corner Stone
@slag:
You’ll get first choice on my roasting sparrows twice a week for a month.
MomSense
@DCLAW1
Marsha, Marsha, Marsha did her usual routine but both Andrews and O’Donnell didn’t let up and just kept pushing tough questions at her. Lawrence was really tough.
She is a piece of work. Vacuous doesn’t even begin to describe it.
@Alex #257
What happened? Was it another of Stewart’s both sides are bad routines?
suzanne
I just faxed the Schweikertian tragedy that is my Congressdouche.
MikeJ
@Triassic Sands: Mail to the local office bypasses security checks too.
Bender
President Obama seems not to be very good at the maths.
Yeah, probably no President (certainly no WHITE President) would be asked to raise the debt ceiling every six months! I mean, the credit raters probably would kill your AAA if you had to do this again in 6 months, right?
And who wants to talk about this all again in January? Who wants to hear in six months if progress has been made on making government responsible to its taxpayers? Nobody! Who wants to have to think about the stupid budget again in just half a year? Not the Present! He’ll be playing golf in Hawaii in January!
Wait, what? What’s that you just said, Mr. President-Genius:
Wait, what? So how many years was Reagan president…16, 20? What, eight? Hmmmm, 18 times in 96 months is roughly once…every…five…months. For 8 years. Ummmm, did we lose our AAA rating? No, huh.
Good thing we have a diligent, knowledgeable, not-at-all-in-the-tank-for-Democrats media to call the President on his “historic” mistakes!
Corner Stone
@jwb:
In one version or another. This deal is cooked. Boehner is working the douche while Obama is telling everyone how bad Boehner played him.
Does anyone here think the first black president is going to go onto the history books as not being able to pay his bills?
Barb (formerly Gex)
I would say that Mrs. Gex and I have impeccable timing. She cashed out her 401k before the housing crash. I just cashed out my 401k before this nonsense. She’s been unemployed for all of that time not that we need some action on jobs or anything…
Anyhow, getting out of the pyramid scheme before it blows up is kind of a nice treat for regular folk.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
He can be as pompous and in-love-with-the-sound-of-his-own-voice as Olbermann, but he’s a lot more knowledgable and on-point
MomSense
@#266 MojoQuester
If you want to contact your Reps, please consider calling your local, state office. These calls are really effective. If you are close to an office, stop by.
Marc
What’s up with the racist tripe in the last few comments here?
Trurl
The proof being that the stock market will not crash tomorrow.
jl
Presidents have in the past, in crises, and extreme situations, or because they just wanted to (hey there Jackson), have, if you want to get technical about it, done things that could be called unconstitutional, by some interpretation.
Strictly speaking, you can’t say some one violated the law until you go to trial and get a verdict. And not so strictly, but original founder speaking, Hamilton said constitutional controversies should be considered political not legal issues.
So Obama’s problem is not to refrain from doing something some lawyer, professor or not, says is unconstitutional. I think that will prove impossible anyway, since I am sure the GOP has some hack profs lined up to say anything Obama does after Aug 2 is unconstitutional except resignation. Then they will have the same argument for Biden.
Obama has to keep the money flowing
with the least obvious violence to the constitution,
and that will not get shut down by the courts very quickly
and get him removed by Congress (these two should be easy since I think both chambers have to agree for either to occur),
and will gain popular support now and in the 2012 election.
If it is done wisely, with the interests of the country as the main goal, whatever he does will not be found to be ‘too unconstituional’ by consensus scholars in the future. And we can all sleep with sweet dreams floating in our heads (I hope we can, after this mess is over).
that is my cynical opinion.
Martin
Well, I’m guessing that OLC along with Treasury’s lawyers decide what the interpretation is. I’m not sure anyone has actually tried to answer these questions before.
Yeah, you can’t tell one dollar from another, but there’s a pretty strict set of rules for how you count those dollars. My guess is that everyone will be okay with the auction/repayment slight of hand because Treasury’s end of the day report will report debt under the limit. The Pauls will probably pop a vein, but that’ll be about it.
The bigger question is what counts as ‘debt’. If we didn’t pay those SS checks on the 3rd, would that $23B count as debt? Do we just pretend those people never, ever get paid? I don’t see how that’s possible. It’s not as though the Constitution specifically refers to treasury notes, it refers to debt.
The catch-22 if you’re counting all money owed as debt is that you don’t need to get very far along before you’re forced over the debt limit. So, who knows. Lawyers have a whole other bizarro way of thinking about those kinds of situations.
Gian
IIRC Nixon rather famously refused to spend monry that was appropriated, right? what if every GOPer in the house had all federal spending for THEIR district just ya know, impounded. No mail, no highway projects, no federal courts…
I mean if the GOP wants to roll us back to winner take all 19th century bare knuckle politics… yeah, I know impeachment to follow. but I can dream
DCLaw1
Bender: Spoken with the bravado that often accompanies foolishness.
1. It’s not just Obama saying that. Major credit rating agencies are starting to say that.
2. The reason, self-evidently, why it’s different from Reagan’s (and others’) repeatedly lifting the ceiling is that this is the first time the opposition has made a credible threat not to raise it. In the current environment, which is unprecedented, a longer period of time may be necessary to assuage markets that we will not re-enter full-blown crisis mode.
Nice try though. What you lacked in reason you more than made up for with enthusiasm.
MomSense
@274 He actually asked her to defend previous votes to raise the debt ceiling. He had done his homework and pointed out that one of her votes was a 9% increase when the debt was already at 7 trillion. Andrews was asking pointedly about whether or not she voted for the Ryan plan and why she voted for even more drastic cuts as part of the crap, crappier and crappiest (cut cap and balance) plan.
Elie
Kidney Stone HAD to refer to “the first black President who couldn’t pay his bills”
They aren’t HIS bills, you pencil prick, bug fornicator. They are YOUR bills.
Forever the shitwad, jissum licker asshole — that is YOU.
TooManyJens
@Bender:
If we had to do this again — this painful process of months of negotiating with hostage-takers? They probably should, because there’s no assurance that we’ll pay our debts with the Tea Party holding the reins.
Under Reagan, Congress passed clean debt ceiling raises without nearly so much drama and pain as this, so it wasn’t such a big deal.
MomSense
Thank you DCLAw1 for your response in #281!
Keith G
@TX Expat
What some here seem not to not get is even if Obama could get such a scheme through, the Treasury would still have to convince the buyers of our debt that this is not dodgy.
Spaghetti Lee
what if every GOPer in the house had all federal spending for THEIR district just ya know, impounded.
I’d rather that not happen. I live in one. Go to college in one too. Sometimes it seems like a more ‘fuck-off-and-die’ style of politics is all the GOP deserves, but the problem with that is you’re also saying that to the people who live there. We ain’t all teabaggers.
jl
@279 Martin. I have to go for good tonight. Please refer to my last cynical comment.
I appreciate your scruples, but frankly, I think your counting skills are a little too good, and way too responsible and sound, to be a useful member of Obama’s post Aug 2 cash finding brain storming team. If you get my cynical meaning.
Rome Again
@boss bitch:
Well, apparently that’s what he chose. Does he not believe in taking responsibility for his own actions?
slag
@Corner Stone:
Nope. I’m on an all-marmot diet. Try again. An admission of some sort might be good.
Comrade Kevin
I suspect that Bender is actually “Peggy” from “USA Prime Credit”.
MojoQuestor
MomSense @275
Thanks, MomSense. Guess it can’t hurt to make some noise.
MikeJ
@DCLaw1:
Bill Clinton, My Life, my epub viewer calls it pg 1889 of 2698.
Martin
Another thing to note: if there’s going to be an unconstitutional action, you might as well make it one of your choosing. Debt, spending, and taxes are all pretty much equal under the law, so if you have to break one of them, why chose debt? Why not choose taxes and simply unilaterally raise taxes in order to keep from defaulting?
If there is a 14th Amendment solution or some other such legal defense of the full faith and credit of the US, why can’t that be achieved by imposing an immediate levy instead? That’s hard to implement but I don’t think it’s any less unconstitutional than blowing through the debt limit or failing to pay bills.
Corner Stone
@Elie: Give us all a break you ignorant moran.
jwb
Corner Stone: Obama may not have a choice about default—though I suspect he still has at least one major card to play when it comes down to it. At this point, I don’t think Boehner can deliver anything, even with total capitulation by the Dems. It’s possible that Boehner will lead 30 Goopers to slaughter in exchange for a most excellent retirement plan. But he could have gotten that same deal weeks ago.
danimal
Well, I just contacted my congresscritter, the excreble Ken Calvert (R-BackSeat BJ). Never emailed him before, we’ll see if it does anything useful. Thank God he’s likely to be redistricted to another Congressional district next year.
Corner Stone
@slag: Dynamite, or do you have a .22-250?
I’ll tell you what. If the US defaults I’ll bring my push cart to wherever you are and admit my defeat.
jwb
Trurl: “The proof being that the stock market will not crash tomorrow.” That could also be evidence for money is clueless.
Elie
You are the ignorant fool. Shut your face, you racist PUMA bootlicker
Jim, Foolish Literalist
The sad thing is, if Boehner did fall on his sword, he’d be lionized till the end of time as “The Man Who Sacrificed His Career…” the Harry Potter of the Village. And David Gergen and Ruth Marcus would go right back to calling on Democrats to find a way to work with Those Who Only Pretend To Be Crazy But Aren’t Really Like That.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
OY. If anyone is feeling a shortage of smug Broderism on current affairs, Brian Williams is going to be on Letterman
Elie
Curbstone, Bilestone, Millstone —
You comment here all the time. You are overtly intelligent but your comments all eventually boil down to the same crap: your racism and hatred of Obama. You just can’t help it. I for one am not going to allow you to express those rancid points of view without calling you on it. You are a disgraceful, bigotted creep.
Bender
@ DCLaw1
Back atcha, ace.
I’d love to see a cite for that, but I’d love to see Katy Perry in my bedroom, too. Same chance of both.
No, what credit agencies are saying is that we have to get our debt under control. They aren’t concerned with a 6-month debt deal.
We were downgraded this week by one agency that never mentioned the ceiling once in their explanation. Credit agencies aren’t fooled by the “default” ruse.
Unprecedented? That’s anti-historical nonsense. Several times the US has gone months past the debt ceiling “deadline” with Congress bickering about the debt ceiling.
Please stop watching MSNBC to get your news. It leaves you ill-prepared.
Steeplejack
@J. Michael Neal:
Dude, perhaps this is just a nitpick from a former typographer, but think about reformatting your blog post. Twelve-point Times New Roman set across a full page is no way to go through life!
People will have an easier time reading your stuff–both consciously and subliminally–if you set the measure (line width) between 40-70 characters and goose up the font size a bit.
Times New Roman was designed for the cramped (and smudgy) columns of a daily newspaper in the 1930s, and it “sets small”: a line of 12-point Times Roman will look smaller than the same line in, say, 12-point Georgia (which is an excellent screen font for blogging). And Times Roman is kind of “thick”–the better to bang out that smudgy text in the era of hot lead.
Do your readers a favor and think about moving to Georgia or Calibri in a larger font size. And shorten that line width.
/end typographical rant
slag
@Corner Stone: First, let’s get the terms right, here. Ae we betting on the US defaulting or on whether or not the Dems capitulate completely? Let’s be specific. What do you think the outcome is going to be, specifically.
jl
Well, good thing I took a final peep before bedtime.
Bender, credit agency downgrades based in their in house hack macroeconomic analysis do not mean anything for a huge country like the U.S., or Japan (that is a hint). Drop the nonsense.
Mike Lamb
NR…so help me out, if Obama wants to cut SS and Medicare, and the Teatards want to cut SS and Medicare, why hasn’t a deal been done? Or maybe you are full of shit?
Corner Stone
@Elie: How dare you call me racist??
Some of my best friends are black!
Elie
Slag @ 305
Why on earth would you respect that guy by asking anything?
What does he know about anything that isn’t tainted by his overwhelming bias? You might as well call the KKK storm troopers .
Martin
@Steeplejack:
You got a lot of nerve saying that on this blog, you know.
Corner Stone
@slag: I’m saying there will be no default. There will be an extension to get to a short term interim where a deal is agreed to.
What is in the deal will most likely be spending cuts on a variety of programs, but there will be no revenue adjustments.
Elie
Curb Stone:
You have no friends.
Corner Stone
@Elie: You’re a moran.
Comrade Luke
The Times weighs in: The Republican Wreckage.
Why do I get the feeling that this will make both sides happy?
Elie
Bile Stone:
You are nothing…not even a MORON. You are an insult to morons
JC
Bender – 15 seconds for this ‘crisis’ to end. By voice vote, raise the debt ceiling – which has been done for the last 50 years.
Simple. This is a manufactured ‘crisis’, put on by cynics who think it’s okay to endanger the nation’s credit rating – on funds that have already been budgeted.
Do Republicans care about debt?
End the Bush tax cuts
Reduce military expenditures
Continue to improvements with ACA, and make it more universal, as medical costs rise more slowly in medicare, than in any other system.
EDIT: Have hedge fund managers pay regular taxes
Tell companies that are ‘fake’ offshore companies, to pay U.S. taxes rates for corporations.
there’s a whole host of ways to reduce the debt load. The Progressive Plan does the best job of reducing debt.
slag
@Elie:
Honestly, I ask myself this question all the time. But only rarely about Corner Stone.
Don’t get me wrong…I’m not saying the dude doesn’t have issues. I just haven’t figured out exactly what those are yet. And I’m not convinced they are what you think they are. Or, at least, not entirely.
Corner Stone
@jwb: The Tea Party isn’t all powerful. They aren’t going to kick all the House members out in primaries, no matter if they want to or not.
There is a chunk of R’s that have US Chamber backing that can withstand an assault.
Boehner may be done when this is over, but he’s going to get what’s coming to him if he makes a deal.
slag
@Corner Stone:
Meh. Too easy.
So, you’re betting on complete and total capitulation, then? No loophole closes, nothing tax increase-related?
jwb
Corner Stone: Does Boehner manage to remain Speaker? Because that’s the part that’s just not squaring with your scenario: I don’t see how Boehner survives a deal no matter how much it looks like Obama capitulates. Strike that: A very implausible scenario might see a faction of the Goopers agree to leave to form a new party, say a core for the billionaire’s America’s Elect, and the Dems might agree to support Boehner as Speaker to isolate the teatards. But that’s basically ridiculous.
ETA: ok, I see you did it again. Your powers of clairvoyance are impressive.
Corner Stone
@slag: God, what fucking more do you want me to say?
You want me to tell you the inseam of the Republican leadership?
Fuck.
Corner Stone
@jwb: No. Boehner is done no matter what happens.
My #318 alludes to him being rewarded by Big Biz when this is all said and done.
That’s my opinion.
I see a bunch of questions but I don’t see a lot of rival theories.
Elie
Corner Stone is an intelligent regular commenter here on BJ. He is frequently very funny and makes interesting points. However, at other times he reveals biases that are offensive and he puts them in your face, seemingly saying that we should just accept his crap without comment. We all have biases but what I find particularly inflammatory is his inability to accept his own. Instead, he becomes more insulting.
Who knows, maybe he is some black PUMA dickhead. There are a few of THOSE running around too. I just don’t like the way he insults Obama and remains completely without any respect for the viewpoint of other folks.
Yeah, I am a bit thin skinned about Obama — as are many black people. I identify with the situation that he is in and have deep feelings of anxiety and sadness for he lack of respect that he is accorded — feelings that many middle aged black people have felt. I don’t know Obama personally, but I feel his treatment very personally. I can only relate it to the loneliness I have felt as a black person with intense responsibilities to live up to. There are not many white people who will ever experience that. Ever.
That is all.
Bender
Ahhh, the new civility.
Hello. Reality here. The Tea Party Republicans have introduced the Full Faith And Credit Act which would ensure that, in case of no debt limit agreement, incoming tax revenue (you do know we’d still have revenue coming in, right?) would go to the bondholders, Social Security checks, and military pay.
So you couldn’t possibly be more wrong.
Absolutely anti-historical garbage. Does Gramm-Rudman ring a bell (probably not)? That anti-spending bill was tied to the 1987 debt limit increase. William Proxmire famously filibustered one Reagan request, and at least one went well past the “deadline.”
So except for being wrong about everything, good job!
MojoQuestor
sukabi @115
Lol! When boss bitch @91 posted that, I thought it was just (excellent) snark. Thanks for the link! Poor dude, having to go up against the POTUS on behalf of a bunch of crazy teatards.
jwb
Corner Stone: The principal rival theory would be that Boehner can’t convince 30 other members of his caucus to take the retirement package. I also don’t see a good explanation for all the Kabuki the last couple of weeks if the deal has already been cooked. Boehner could have had this deal weeks ago.
Hill Dweller
Just to echo what someone said earlier, The Daily Show was awful on the debt ceiling tonight. It was “both sides do it” bullshit.
Stewart was bemoaning the fact that the debt ceiling had been raised over a hundred times before, but this Congress couldn’t do it, without pointing out the Republicans’ hostage strategy.
Steeplejack
@Martin:
I think this blog is okay, typographically, although it does have its tics and foibles.
And I do have it set at three clicks on the “zoom (text only)” button. But that could be because of my old monitor and my screen’s 1024 x 768 resolution.
slag
@Corner Stone: Just looking for clarification. You say no loophole closes, then. No increased taxes of any kind.
So, for argument’s sake, I suggest that there will be some revenue adjustments.
MBunge
Yeah, I am a bit thin skinned about Obama—- as are many black people.
You’re not thin-skinned. It’s not like Obama’s getting a bunch of substantive policy objections thrown at him. He’s being bombarded by smug, self-righteous whining from people who are absolutely convinced they’re smarter and better politicians than the black guy with the funny name who got himself elected President and he’s getting that treatment from people who swoon over Bill Clinton, a man guilty of far greater sins against liberalism than anything Obama has done.
Mike
Steeplejack
@Comrade Luke:
And, unlike Mom and Dad sitting at the kitchen table trying to hammer out the budget, the U.S. government can just print money to pay the bills. Yes, it’s true!
Not saying you want to do it lightly, but the nation’s finances are not like your household checkbook.
Corner Stone
@jwb: Boehner doesn’t want to go away. He’s an old school Pol. That’s who he is.
And if we here honestly believe that the last 40 or so R House Members are all more scared of the Tea Party than their owners in the US Chamber then we better all start stocking up on the water filtration systems, etc. Because we’re gonna have to start committing violent acts otherwise, in self defense.
Corner Stone
@jwb:
Those yellow underwear are awful!
J. Michael Neal
Steeplejack: I’m open to suggestions, but they have to come with directions on how to implement them. I agree that the look of my blog sucks, but I really don’t have any idea how to improve it. The HTML for the template has me completely buffaloed.
Bender
That’s just not true. Just because Rachel Madcow said it does not make it any more true. Even recent history is full of long, hard negotiation of debt ceiling increases. Anyone who tells you it’s always easy is lying to you for their own purposes.
All has been budgeted, but not all has been spent. There’s no harm (in fact, there is massive good) in not spending what Congress has appropriated. Let’s not pretend that this is all spent money just because that’s a lefty talking point du jour.
And the credit rating is endangered by the debt itself, not by the debt limit, as I have already shown here.
You know what also cuts government spending? NOT nationalizing health insurance. ‘Cuz if any program should be held out as a champion of cost-cutting, it’s Medicare, a system that has overspent its projections by a factor of freaking ten.
Do they not abide by the regular tax code? I wasn’t aware of an exception for them, but they are Obama’s moneymen, so…
FlipYrWhig
I think it’s sort of like a crowd at a baseball game watching a slow-paced pitcher for the home team. He’s throwing fastball inside, fastball inside, fastball inside. The hitter is fouling them off. Fastball inside. Foul. Fastball inside. Foul. The crowd gets restless. “C’mon, throw the breaking ball!” Fastball inside. Foul. Fastball inside. Foul. “He’s catching up to it! Throw the breaking ball!” Fastball inside. “Damn, man, I’m getting nachos, this is ridiculous.” Fastball inside. Foul. Curveball on the outside corner, swing and miss, inning over. Most everyone cheers. Except one section. “Why didn’t he just do that before? Dumbass has no idea how to pitch.”
Bender
Just pointing out, this “terrorist” and “hostage taking” rhetoric is uncalled for, uncivil, and does not make you look less crazy.
Barbarians.
Another Bob
Imagine if Congressional Democrats had refused to automatically raise the debt ceiling when a Republican was president. The mainstream press wouldn’t be treating it as though it were just one side of a perfectly legitimate argument. It would be treated as an unprecedented and unjustified act of political warfare. But when Republicans do it, the press acts as though it were almost inevitable. Is there any mainstream journalist — Jake Tapper or Chuck Todd or David Gregory — who would dare call out the phoniness of this whole charade?
Bender
Why imagine? It has happened many times. And none of the things you mentioned ever happened. The press hardly mentioned it.
Why are you all so ignorant of even recent history? Do you never dare venture outside the HiveMind? Did you all have union teachers? Do you only believe what Chrissy Tingles tells you? What is your problem with remedial history?
OzoneR
unpossible, Obama used the bully pulpit
OzoneR
When
OzoneR
That’s because they DO continue to win elections
Thymezone
Bender as usual has it wrong. “Voice vote” has nothing to do with how the moment of the vote was arrived at. The limit has been raised by voice vote before, numerous times by voice vote and unanimous consent since 1978 alone, shown in the chart in this document
Notice that the list is separated into Stand Alone and Non Stand Alone measures.
Negotiation, staging, vote counting .. are always part of the process. But a lot of that is part of the elaborate kabuki processes of legislation that serve multiple purposes in the back end of the congressional business, which have nothing much to do with the actual measures being voted on as much as they have to do with an internal posturing and scorekeeping ritual.
What do the stand alone debt limit increases look like as actual legislation? Here is a typical example, there are many —
——————————————————-//
101st CONGRESS
2d Session
H. R. 5350
AN ACT
To provide for a temporary increase in the public debt limit.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
SECTION 1. TEMPORARY INCREASE IN PUBLIC DEBT LIMIT.
During the period beginning on the date of the enactment of this Act and ending on October 2, 1990, the public debt limit set forth in subsection (b) of section 3101 of title 31, United States Code, shall be temporarily increased to $3,195,000,000,000.
Passed the House of Representatives August 3, 1990.
Attest:
Clerk.
——————————————————–//
Just as Larry O’Donnell, who used to work in Congress, pointed out more than once lately: Basically one line bills, passed by voice vote (or unanimous consent). No big deal. If the votes are line up, the whole thing can be done in minutes.
MJ
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): I’ve recently started referring to Boehner as Pumpkinhead because he’s a, so bad it’s funny, D-list freak show.
Cassidy
I see a lot of walking bags of shit held together by biology and physics. I get it. To each his own. But they aren’t people to me. People give a shit about other people. They have no humanity left and I don’t intend to pretend otherwise.
NR
You wish. The simple fact is that Obama said it himself:
Obama made it perfectly clear that he wants to cut Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. He said it himself, quite plainly. The people trying to deny that fact are the ones who are full of shit.
Yutsano
@NR: Wow. I must say that is a master job of taking a quote out of context. It’s like his next sentence never happens!
Thymezone
#346 — No, I think the transcript will show that you are wrong. What Obama said is that he offered those cuts during a negotiating process. But he also knows that the opposition is more motivated by opposing him than they are in actually reducing deficits, and that the deal he was proposing would be rejected. It’s an easy trick to do … just load your package with poison pill that you know the other side won’t accept. Then you can say that you offered them the world, offered them just what they asked for …almost .. and they wouldn’t take it. This is easy to do when you are negotiating with foolish children who don’t know what they are doing. Boehner might know, but his caucus is a zoo.
What’s more, in the case of SS, as discussed here at length recently, the cuts are essentially procedural, having to do with the way formulas are applied .. the kind of procedural adjustments made fairly often in entitlement programs to keep them lined up with various fiscal targets as conditions change. It’s a “cut” that looks like a concession but is actually just maintenance that would probably get done anyway. Again, easy to fool the TP rubes who are all hyped up about what big heroes they are being, and not paying attention to the details of what they are negotiating. That’s why they do stupid things like asking for the details on paper … do they really think that either side is going to document the arcana of closed door negotiations so that the other side can go out to the tv studios and pick them apart? That just shows you how stupid and naive the people in Boehner’s caucus really are.
FlipYrWhig
@ Yutsano : In NR’s defense here, the following sentence seems to hold open the possibility of _future_ beneficiaries being affected in an adverse way. I assume that all the fuzziness is because what Obama really means is the “chained CPI” thing Martin has been discussing in these threads, which would in fact deliver a smaller check to beneficiaries than the current method does. Defending that in terms of policy, as Martin and others have been, involves a lot more groundwork. I am persuaded that recalibrating the benefits is not the same thing as a “cut,” but for polemicists that’s a distinction without a difference, and I get why Obama would rather point to what he won’t do (affect current beneficiaries) instead of what he might do (affect future beneficiaries by giving them a check bigger than today’s that buys the same amount of goods and services [according to the new indexing] but is nonetheless smaller than it would be if it just kept going up [according to the current indexing]).
Thymezone
#346 — a little more on my last.
Two points …
Do you remember what happened after the budget agreement … a short time later the Repubs came along and said that they had been misled, that cuts supposedly offered to them turned out to be more illusory than real, and that the savings they though they had achieved weren’t really there. That tells you that the two sides are not quite operating at the same level of skill. They fucked up and didn’t check some numbers and got embarrassed.
Second, remember last week? Boehner said negotiating with the White House was like negotiating “with a bowl of jello.” Another signal that those guys are in over their heads. Boehner’s caucus doesn’t know enough to figure the details and get them right … but the know our side does, and they don’t trust us. Well, boo hoo. They have resources. They can do the hard work of keeping up with these things as the process goes along, taking notes, scoring the proposals, running the numbers … but they are too lazy, too preoccupied with the thrill of sticking it to the White House to do the work to be sure they aren’t having it stuck to them.
In short, they are amateurs, and the White House is taking their asses to school, IMV, and everything that has happened in the last month proves it. They have been maneuvered into a coffin corner of their own making, while thinking that they are the ones pulling a fast one.
cckids
jrg @ 128:
A-fucking-men. We live in Vegas, ground zero for the economic meltdown since 2008, & own a small financial advising business. This is the first year things are remotely tolerable, we’ve actually been able to (mostly) pay the bills, and now. . . armeggeddon again. We’ve got one son starting college next month, and another one who depends on Medicaid for his LIFE, and it all may go away. Jesus wept, I despise these driveling weasels.
Yutsano
@FlipYrWhig: Except that’s not the terminology NR uses. He just says cuts as if Grandma will be eating cat food tomorrow. The approach you describe is nuanced and wonky. He just goes for the Obama bashing out of the gate.
gwangung
Yutsano:
So détails don’t matter to him.
Propaganda, then. Not particularly good at it, either.
Yutsano
@gwangung: Sigh. What’s really funny is that he thinks if he screams loud enough we’ll all suddenly come around and vote the nigra out and install a real President like Hillary or Nader yesterday.
FlipYrWhig
@ Yutsano : I agree with you about the way some people on these threads go hunting for words on which they can pounce. It reminds me of a bit from _The King and I_, when the King is getting annoyed that Anna keeps asking for separate lodgings — the house he promised her — and he starts to hear it everywhere:
NR
You mean this sentence here?
According to Obama, current beneficiaries will not be adversely affected. Future beneficiaries? Well…. They’re just going to have to accept some “adjustments.” Again, this is not me saying this, this is a direct quote from Obama himself:
It’s pretty stunning how people can still pretend that Obama doesn’t want to cut Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid when he himself has said, as plainly as possible, that he does. I guess ignoring reality isn’t just for Republicans anymore.
Yutsano
@NR: Your purity of soul is righteous. Does that make you feel better?
Loviatar
@359 – NR
The Obots have too much invested in Obama. If they allow for one moment that Obama is not the all time greatest 11-dimensional grand master chess strategist, then they’ll have to start question some of his other non-Democratic policies.
They can’t do that.
NR
Nice try. This is about Obama wanting to cut Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. The relative purity of my soul has nothing whatsoever to do with that. You can throw out all the non-sequitirs you want, it won’t change reality.
Yutsano
@NR: Not really. But the fact that you’re not astute enough to determine you’re being mocked is telling.
NR
Oh, your utter inability to address the issue at hand is blindingly obvious. Personal attacks are the last refuge of the losing side.
Loviatar
@362 – NR
you notice, no attempt to address your points. no acknowledgement that there can even be a differing point of view.
you’re either a true believer, or a troll, someone to be dismissed as not serious.
NR
It’s like Yutsano thinks that if he can just insult and belittle everyone who points out what Obama actually said, he’ll somehow magically not have said it anymore. That’s an… interesting view of things, to say the least.
Xenos
@Thymezone:
They can’t win – just look at how Reid took their formula for a deal, one they explicitly articulated, and found a way to meet basic Democratic standards with it. Of course they rejected that deal.
They don’t want to play, only to win 100%. So when they screw up, they want to flip the board over. At this point, they know they can’t own the country any more, and they are willing to flip it over, too.
Xenos
@NR: The problem is not whether or not you understand what Obama said, but that you don’t understand what he is doing.
In any case, Obama is no lefty, so there is really no basis for betrayal or butthurt here. He will not mind trimming back SS, Medicaid, Medicare if he feels it is politically necessary or expedient. I don’t like it, but I am not very surprised by it. And I tend to agree with him that it is, for the next couple years, expedient and necessary for him to be willing to enact these cuts. Game, player, hate, etc..
(edited for typos)
MJ
@Elie: Hey Elie. Thanks for writing this. I’m really feeling where you’re coming from here.
MJ
@MBunge: Word.
Triassic Sands
@Elie:
Impeachment might be good for Obama. The case would be so blatantly political and so disruptive that even clueless Amurkins might see through it. Plus, Obama runs no risk of being convicted in the Senate. Sure, Ben Nelson might vote to convict, but who cares? There wouldn’t be a simple majority for conviction, let alone the necessary 2/3.
Loviatar
The arrogance is breathtaking.
none taken, but then please don’t tell me he is the upholder of Democratic policies and ideals.
kind of casual with that aren’t you. that could be the difference between someone’s rent or medicine, but i guess that’s OK if its politically necessary or expedient.
from this I take it you’re either employed, probably not near retirement or have personal means of to support yourself in retirement. good for you.
not hating, the player or the game, but don’t feed me a shit sandwich and tell me to like it.
cleek
@Thymezone:
yes, i suppose it does.
@Marc:
It is therefore far, far from unreasonable to say that defaulting under these circumstances simply can’t happen. The Congress is perfectly within its rights to shut the government down or to change the budget. But this isn’t about the budget – it’s about the debt limit.
the fact that Congress has already “spent” the money (or authorized it to be spent) doesn’t seem sufficient. if the govt doesn’t have the cash to pay the bills, the fact that the bills exist is, well, a tautology. and that doesn’t seem sufficient to mandate the sale of bonds.
maybe it does. beats me. still looking for an authoritative answer.
chopper
well, you got the ‘regular’ bit right.
Catsy
@jwb:
These two ideas are fundamentally incompatible.
Catsy
@Reality Check:
Could someone please drop the banhammer on this recurring troll? I don’t know how much clearer he can make it that he is operating entirely in bad faith and with the sole purpose of disrupting conversation.
Personally, my money is still on him being a spoof–one whose schtick wore threadbare a long time ago.
Mike Lamb
NR…once again, if Obama is on the Republican side of things, as you imply, why isn’t there a deal already?
NR
Once again, I’m not implying anything. I’m quoting what Obama actually said, in his own words. I’m sorry if you don’t like it, but that doesn’t change facts.