Watching our system deal with the debt ceiling crisis — a wholly self-inflicted crisis, which may nonetheless have disastrous consequences — it’s increasingly obvious that what we’re looking at is the destructive influence of a cult that has really poisoned our political system.
And no, I don’t mean the fanaticism of the right. Well, OK, that too. But my feeling about those people is that they are what they are; you might as well denounce wolves for being carnivores. Crazy is what they do and what they are.
No, the cult that I see as reflecting a true moral failure is the cult of balance, of centrism.
Think about what’s happening right now. We have a crisis in which the right is making insane demands, while the president and Democrats in Congress are bending over backward to be accommodating — offering plans that are all spending cuts and no taxes, plans that are far to the right of public opinion.
So what do most news reports say? They portray it as a situation in which both sides are equally partisan, equally intransigent — because news reports always do that. And we have influential pundits calling out for a new centrist party, a new centrist president, to get us away from the evils of partisanship.
The reality, of course, is that we already have a centrist president — actually a moderate conservative president. Once again, health reform — his only major change to government — was modeled on Republican plans, indeed plans coming from the Heritage Foundation. And everything else — including the wrongheaded emphasis on austerity in the face of high unemployment — is according to the conservative playbook.
What all this means is that there is no penalty for extremism; no way for most voters, who get their information on the fly rather than doing careful study of the issues, to understand what’s really going on.
I’d agree with much of this, but I think it lets the other cult, the Tea Party wing of the GOP, off the hook. And make no bones about it, they are a cargo cult. Their entire belief structure seems designed to reject and deny empiricism and reality. Think about it:
Cutting taxes always increases revenue.
Government should stay out of medicare.
The heat index is a government scam.
The earth is 6000 years old.
ACORN and the New Black Panther Party are the biggest threat to America.
The Democrats are always wrong.
There is no recession.
There need be no regulations
Business is always right.
And on and on and on. Look at the conditions present in cults:
Studies performed by those who believe that some religious groups do practice mind control have identified a number of key steps in coercive persuasion:
People are put in physical or emotionally distressing situations;
Their problems are reduced to one simple explanation, which is repeatedly emphasized;
They receive unconditional love, acceptance, and attention from a charismatic leader or group;
They get a new identity based on the group;
They are subject to entrapment (isolation from friends, relatives and the mainstream culture) and their access to information is severely controlled.
Tell me that does not describe your average wingnut. Democrats and Obama are to blame for everything, unfettered fluffing from Rush Limbaugh and Palin, sole identity as a tea partier/conservative, all news from wingnut sources (the various right-wing media, Fox, etc.). It’s right there in front of you. Make the connection. Any deviation from the cult’s beliefs leads to extreme pressure from the other members, or being thrown out of the group.
And the crazy thing is, both cults need each other to survive. In order for there to be Krugthulu’s cult of the center, you have to completely ignore the our modern day cargo cult, throw up your hands, and say “Both sides are bad” and then get pissed off about Cynthia McKinney or something Jesse Jackson did 20 years ago. It’s just crazy.
arguingwithsignposts
good thing the Moustache of Understanding is on the case! He’s still looking for that magical
unicorn ponythird party!justawriter
Which goes to prove liberalism is not a cult since we are trained to accept unconditional indifference, abuse and graphic descriptions of our ancestor’s relationship with livestock from our leaders and allies if we have the slightest disagreement on policy options. But at least we are allowed to have options, which makes us much healthier than the conservative cult.
...now I try to be amused
Like the “Islamofascists” and the “Christofascists” need each other.
JCT
Well this is an uplifting start to the day.
Not that I disagree with KThug’s basic premise….
Jewish Steel
Seeing this, or indeed any crisis as the product of an undifferentiated “Washington” is another one I hear a lot. As though there is no relationship the electors and the elected.
arguingwithsignposts
Technically, I don’t think this is true. The beltway media don’t *need* the teahadists to survive. Garden variety conservative fuckery did them just fine oh, these so many years.
different church-lady
Not for nothin’, but I ain’t always so crazy about the Cult of Krugmanizim either.
Redshirt
Remember when checking your tire inflation was EVIL/STUPID?
100% agree on the cult label. A Death Cult at that. They’re a true threat to the world.
cleek
frankly, i think that gives them too much credit. i see all that stuff, essentially everything that comes out of a teabagger/movement conservative’s mouth, as ways to get people riled-up at anyone who isn’t one of their tribe. it’s just an incoherent jumble of hot-button issues that the cynical GOP cheerleaders have told the masses to repeat.
there’s no ideology there beyond “liberals suck!” there aren’t any deep beliefs; there are slogans, psalms and songs – things to repeat to evangelize and to prove one’s own dedication to the cause (which is nothing more than “beat liberals”). it’s tribalism.
SteveinSC
Well, the MSM is so frightened shitless of being called “Liberal” that they’ve lost all idea of what it means to be the Fourth Estate and will see the country down the tube before they will actually call attention to the facts. The TV is such profit/corporate oriented “infotainment” that they represent the worst case.
General Stuck
Kthug should just stick to describing the wingers behavior and leave off the political analysis of the interactive between dems and wingers, on at least this current gooper train wreck.
It is shallow and polemic, and more about the optics red meat to his followers and devotees, than the end result of what Obama and dems are engaging toward here. And of course they are thinking about the next election. If they weren’t, then I would be very disappointed. And that means they engage in political parry with the crazy tea tards.
The republicans are dissolving into the liquid form of crazy for all to see. They are now officially in a civil war with themselves. That Seems like a dem victory to me. And the arrow is pointing strongly toward either a clean bill, or the Reid one as the only end game here, besides actual default.
The cuts in both the Boehner and Reid plans, are delayed and virtually non existent the first year of two, while the economy is recovering. And it is Keynesian to desire long term deficit reduction. It would be better to get some tax hikes, but is also impossible with today’s GOP. And Obama still has the Bush tax cuts in his back pocket to do with what he wants come 2013.
Odie Hugh Manatee
What the Teaparty needs is a powerful, charismatic leader like the Rev. Jim Jones.
I hope they find him soon.
The Moar You Know
The populace is at fault, ultimately, for not asking hard questions when confronted with a visibly fucked-up situation (modern politics) and a media that refuses to produce an explanation for how the situation came to pass that anyone can believe. Even the teatards know they’re being lied to; but they’re looking in the wrong place for expanations (PROTIP: a guy who’s telling you he has all the answers does not, in fact, have any answers at all).
Yeah, if the media did a better job, we wouldn’t be at this pass – but if the populace bothered to do any work to keep themselves informed, we wouldn’t need a media at all. I’m beginning to think that a formal media, with the potential for being bought off (Western media is totally compromised this way), or taken over by a state actor to push propaganda unto a populace (American media willingly does this for the American government), is a bad idea in and of itself.
The truth is out there, and the truth can be found, if you dig hard enough.
Dexter
Walls Street overlords are not happy. Dow is down 1%. Also too, the durable goods order is not very helpful either.
Redshirt
What can be done about it all? Clearly, the Media is a BIG part of the problem, but other than personal boycotts and talking to friends and families, what can change the present dynamic?
I can’t think of a thing.
SenyorDave
I consider anyone who sign the Norquist tax pledge to be someone not fit to hold office. They are de facto traitors who clearly will not vote in the best interests of our country.
J
I think Krugman’s idea is that sincere Tea party members are beyond the reach of reason; they are well and truly mad. Those who occupy the commanding heights of the media establishment, on the other hand, are supposed to be rational, indeed supposed to owe their exalted positions, enormous salaries, dazzling perquisites and influence to highly developed rational powers. Had they done their job, had they not abdicated their responsibilities and betrayed the trust placed in them–by sedulously obscuring the truth about the Tea party and the present-day Republican party–we wouldn’t be in the mess were in. This, I think, is why K has singled out the news business for special reproach.
R. Porrofatto
More Tea Party beliefs (the list could be endless)
– The government wants to take away your light bulbs
– You can drill in Alaska for gasoline
– Nothing bad could possibly happen if the U.S. defaults on its debt
– Michelle Bachmann would make a great president. So would Ron Paul.
– The Tea Party is a grass roots movement funded by citizen activists
– Same-sex marriage will destroy America
– The Ground Zero Mosque is at Ground Zero
– The Laffer Curve is as real as professional wrestling
– Mitch McConnell is a liberal
– Joe the Plumber is an intellectual
gogol's wife
I wish Krugman would consistently direct his attacks at the side that’s causing the problem, rather than the side that’s trying to save the country. I’m totally sick of him. All of his analysis is colored and skewed by his distaste for Obama. I really wonder what he’d be saying if it were Hillary who were dealing with this (no doubt in much the same way as Obama is, if not a more compromising one).
SteveinSC
It looks like the 14th Amendment route is the way to go. The teahadists can go to the Supreme Court all they want but the case could draw out forever. Anyway, as President Jackson said of the ruling by Chief Justice Marshall, “he has made his decision, now let him enforce it.”
Derf
As usual, Captain Doom John Galt Cole get’s it wrong. But that’s just what naive people do.
Kthug is just being his whiny Clintonista self. What he fails to mention while playing the blame game is that all the things he talks about are symptoms. The actual cause is voters. If you want to blame someone blame them. If they weren’t such morons this would have never happened. And the media would have no choice but to cut the BS and report reality.
arguingwithsignposts
@The Moar You Know:
Sorry, but no. The whole idea behind the idea of a free press is that it is critical to the functioning of an educated populace. Where do you think all these “hard-working” populi would get their information if not through a functioning media establishment? usa.gov? Everything else that informs your viewpoint comes via some form of media – be it books, the internet, television, video games, whatever. Including the textbooks that are used in our classrooms.
ETA: Also, the very founding of the nation was brought about – in part – by pamphleteers and newspaper editors who wrote screeds against the british. And expecting upwards of 100 million adult Americans to each individually gather and synthesize all the information needed to function in a 21st century democracy is an incredible waste of time and productivity that could be used elsewhere.
ira-NY
The cult of balance even infects sport reporting.
This morning’s news headlines about the epic Pirate/Braves game refers to a controversial call and rhetorically asks whether the Brave’s runner was safe or out at the plate.
Controversial call gives Braves 19-inning win| Safe or out?
rickstersherpa
The lamestream media has had a continuous drift toward more and more being entertaiment. This drift of the last 50 years of journalism to telling stories, of having a “narrative” which means celebrating the conflict itself, not the reaons or substance of the conflict. Hence, except for odd little bits here are their the two principal papers of record, WaPo and NY Times, NPR, and both cable and broadcast news have never really published detailed stories about the debt or the breakdowns of the consequences of the various proposals.
One thing Bob Somerby has noted is that even when they print facts or numbers, they often vary from day to day.
Many of the right-wing grifters on Cable now say “Cut, Cap, and Balance” is popular, but what does that mean if no one explains what that means for social security, medicare, and mediaciad, including current benefits, will have to be cut drastically? Or that most of the Government outside the military and homeland security will have to be closed? Or that the wealthy will never have higher taxes than they have now, and when they are cut again, they can never be raised (simple majority needed for tax cuts, super-majorities for tax increases, means that the wealthy will soon be living tax free).
JGabriel
@arguingwithsignposts:
Teahadism is garden variety Conservative fuckery, just under a different name. It’s not like racist signs about Obama didn’t exist before the Tea Party.
.
wrb
It is due to the fact that we’ve become a nation full of addicted spectators. I mean physically, to that rush that comes with anger and outrage. If your personal opinion doesn’t have much impact on the outcome, why not enjoy the rush, they figure. Murdoch etc. are pushers. And like junkies, these addicts will let their lives and country fall apart as they focus on their fix.
This drama is being driven by the desire to bring the biggest rush to the spectators- that is the desired outcome.
Samara Morgan
You and Kthug are ignoring the basic problem.
The right has become a religious party. The base is wholly white conservative christian, the official republican party platform includes counter-rational beliefs like medieval ensoulment (life at conception). The base imposes a rigorous christian values ideological straitjacket on the leadership, and that includes the counterrational belief set of creationism, AGW denialism, homophobia, racism, anti-intellectualism and anti-empiricism about the “freed” market.
There is no separation of church and state for the right anymore.
And because of freedom of religion in America, it is considered taboo to point this out by the news media.
Han's Big Snark Solo
Krugman’s critique of the media is spot on. This isn’t a “Both sides do it,” situation. This is entirely Republicans. If they wanted to they could increase the debt ceiling within an hour. Sure, the opposition party has a long history of making hay over the debt ceiling, but they always make sure it gets passed. This is the first time they’ve held it hostage and it is entirely the fault of Republicans in the House.
I maintain that Obama and the Democrats are winning this argument. I understand that many liberals are upset. They think Obama is capitulating. But I don’t see it that way. The Reid plan doesn’t touch taxes, true, but it also doesn’t touch the social safety net. I think Obama truly believes that cutting spending in the out years is a good idea and is using this “crisis” to get that done.
If Obama can get the debt ceiling increased past the next election, and the spending cuts he wants then all the leverage switches to the Democrats. Why? Because taxes are scheduled to go up if nothing is done and, more importantly, because he won’t have to trade entitlement cuts to get tax increases.
Not only that, but Obama and the Democrats get to be the “reasonable ones” and the Democrats can use the Paul Ryan Plan to Kill Medicare (PRPTKM) without Republicans being able to counter that the Democrats tried to kill Medicare too.
Trakker
The Tea Partiers have always been with us. I should know, I was raised in a John Birch/Dr. Carl MacIntire home in the 60s. Back then the MSM marginalized them, made fun of them to the point where they could longer grow, and the Birchers finally faded from sight. But their anger remained and festered, and now they’re back under new management and the MSM legitimizes them.
Tom Q
Not that any of us needed Krugman’s point proven, but, the caption on CNN an hour ago:
“Debt Crisis: Extremes on Left and Right, Very Little Center”
I didn’t have the stomach to put the sound on and hear how they tried to make the case. But I did note the apparent “extreme left” people who appeared on-screen were Sheila Jackson Lee and Raul Grijalva — so maybe darker skin automatically qualifies one.
No Fortunate Son
I’m not really crazy about Krugman’s cult either.
Some of us who have been following Paul Krugman since the time when he worked on Ronald Regan’s economic team, when he told America the effects of NAFTA would be “trivial” and attacked Bill Clinton’s economic policy from the right throughout the 90’s, when he sat on Enron’s Board of Directors, when he angled for a position in a second Clinton Administration and derided anyone who supported Obama as displaying “cultlike” behavior (there’s that word), when he said it was “grotesque” for the Obama campaign to claim Bill Clinton’s invocation of Jesse Jackson in SC was a racist dog whistle, and when he dabbled in PUMAism and took way too long (like a Jerome Armstrong too long) to acknowledge Obama had won the primary, and when he attacked Obama for failing to mention healthcare 10 days into his Presidency.
So when Krugman plays the Obama is a conservative card, and that healthcare is the only change to government Obama has made, I can’t help but feel that this is no simple mistake, but a warping of reality is intended for his own cult.
scav
You want a sad comment on the state of journalism? Piers Morgan may be facing some renewed hard looks on hacking and ethics in general because of some “hard-hitting” (or so they appear now) questions he replied to on Desert Island Discs! (and few other things). Desert Island Discs? What five records would you take to a desert island and would you like some tea and cookies? This is death by Teddy Bear.
artem1s
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Had the same conversation with a friend last night. Right wingers exhibit cult like mind sets and ‘gee, can the GOP go Jonestown and get it over with already’
weird.
FFrank
From the rude Pundit, (lost the link I appologize)
wrb
I think Krugman is an extremely reliable analyst of the working of the economy and an extremely unreliable analyst of political strategy.
It is a common failing of people who are very smart in one area to think that therefore they are in other areas.
Worse though it the tendency of followers to think that the quality of their work in one area confers authority to their thoughts in another.
Joseph Nobles
In one respect only, the comparison of the Tea Party to cargo cultists falls apart. The Tea Party has members of Congress. They have real power. Yes, they made their little fake airports and did their little fake rituals to call the airplanes in to land at their fake airports…
…and then the planes started landing. That’s the world we live in.
Trollenschlongen
Gosh…at first I thought this section was referring to the Balloon Juice Cult of Great Leader Barack…
Ash Can
@No Fortunate Son: I’m no Krug-bot myself, but I still believe he does a better job of supporting his criticisms of Obama — the economic-based ones, at least — with actual facts than the vast majority of Obama’s detractors from the left. I may not agree with him all the time, but at least he makes an honest effort at building a rational argument.
huckster
I challenge Kthug to produce one Republican that would have passed ANY healthcare bill.
Sharl
What a coinkidink – Alice ‘Both-Sides-Are-Guilty’ Rivlin was just on my radio box, on the Diane Rehm show (Susan Page of USA Today is guest hosting). And she was doing her Both-Sides-Are-Guilty Dance, regarding the Debt Ceiling brouhaha. Of course, she was on the Simpson-Bowles committee, so this sort of thing coming from her isn’t really a surprise.
Expert on Congress Norm Ornstein was a lot better – he’s the last honest scholar at AEI, as near as I can tell.
tomvox1
Case in point # a billion and a 11 for how the media is killing our democracy with He said, She said…
From the Times’ “Caucus” blog:
‘Cause, you know, it’s not like the Ryan plan counted the savings from winding down the wars or anything…
ppcli
Good list. I would add one that always amazes me: the slogan that has been so often repeated by so many people that it was clearly devised and focus-tested by one of the right-wing message factories and sent out by the right-wing message discipline machine: “Government has never created a single job” [usually said by a professional politician – i.e. someone with a government job]. This is one of those slogans that is so flatly, bizarrely, Baghdad Ali denying the presence of soldiers while soldiers can be seen in the background, who you going to believe, me or your lying eyes false that you have to assume that the point is as much creating disorientation as anything else. As if someone points at the ocean and says “this is not water”.
[Yes, yes, I know, that on one or two occasions, people who have said this have been asked, in a gently meandering, non-confrontational, really-both-sides-are-the-same, tone a question that amounts to “Um, what exactly are you talking about?” and there is always some kind of blather about, well, the civil service jobs and armed services jobs and political positions and political staff positions and construction jobs funded by government contracts and highway maintenance jobs and police jobs and firefighter jobs and prison guard jobs and school teacher jobs and even those jobs mentioned in the constitution like post office,… aren’t really “jobs” for some completely invented, nonsensical reason. But that’s just more fog.]
Matt
See also the way the ‘baggers handled Charles’s ditching them over at LGF – there’s some serious cult-like behavior right there.
ppcli
I’ve noticed that Ornstein has been sounding sensible in recent months. I wonder how long before the Heritage foundation gives him a David From – style defenestration.
Samara Morgan
Look Cole…the “cult” is white (non-hispanic cauc) conservative christianity.
And conservatives aren’t a cargo cult– they are ghost dancers.
They think they they can bring back the past with ritual.
Conservatives reject science and empirical-data. They believe the free market is a bullet proof magic shirt against economic troubles…. they employ magical thinking… which is counter-rational and anti-empirical.
And now a lot of people are going to start whining that im hatin’ on christians and im a racist.
Knock yourselves out, retards.
The 2012 election is like Stephen King’s The Stand.
You are gunna have to chose a side.
Lol
That’s why annoys me about the whole “Obamacare is a Republican plan” meme. No, it isn’t!
We already saw the Republican health care reform plan during the Bush years — it was to do nothing. They controlled all three branches of government and they did nothing. They didn’t propose anythig, and they didn’t even try to reform the system. The status quo is te Republican plan.
Why is that so hard to grasp?
MBunge
Some of us who have been following Paul Krugman since the time when he worked on Ronald Regan’s economic team, when he told America the effects of NAFTA would be “trivial” and attacked Bill Clinton’s economic policy from the right throughout the 90’s
All of which is probably why Krugman is so critical of Obama and probably would have turned like a dime on Hillary if she had been elected. While he certainly didn’t create the Tea Party, he and his ilk are part and parcel of the decision-making that’s led us to this point. Rather than admit there’s some fundamental problems in his own ideology, it’s too easy to assume all that’s needed is some better, more perfect leader to make everything turn out all right.
Mike
Bulworth
This is an unfortunate classic in the genre, in today’s Post:
Boehner, Reid appear to have given ground in debt proposals
It gets worse
I guess that is supposed to be Boner’s “concession”.
See, both sides are causing the problem, and both sides are “conceding” something to the other in response.
Good grief.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/boehner-reid-appear-to-have-given-ground-in-debt-proposals/2011/07/26/gIQA046hbI_story.html
Kathy in St. Louis
Jon Stewart runs clips of various Fox News personalities all using exactly the same terms over and over again all day long when Fox has picked a new topic to get viewers stirred up about. That is no coincidence. It is definitely a form of brainwashing, and it works because the true believers use Fox as their only source of news, and Everyone Is Saying It…whatever the It is. Pretty soon, that’s the consensus they believe in. Yes, it is exactly like a cult, because it is one.
Ben Cisco
@FFrank:
Found the link.
Tsulagi
Nah, on this just calmly stating the Duh-level obvious.
joes527
I think Jon Stewart captured the tea party cult pretty well a couple of days ago.
“These are people who believe in Social Darwinism. But they don’t believe in Darwin”
Samara Morgan
And neither Cole or Krugman can just spit out the truth at this point.
Because they will get called christian-haters.
Just as whimpy as the media-slaves.
In America one is free to have the religion of their choice. But they are not free to impose that religion on other unwilling citizens….that way lies mob-rule…or, as the libertarians call it “the Paradox of Libertariansim” aka Distributed Jesusland™
gene108
The both sides do it line has been inculcated into a generation of journalists and commentators. It was a reaction to what well intentioned journalists felt must be a valid criticism by Republicans that the media had a liberal bias.
This line of criticism was thrown at journalist during the 1960’s, 1970’s and 1980’s and by the 1990’s they finally decided enough was enough and they would make sure they dug out dirt on Democrats, even if it really had nothing to do with anything they did while in office.
It’s going to take decades to undo the damage that journalists have done to their professions, by assuming Republicans were being honest in their criticism, rather than actually concocting a Machiavellian plan to control the media.
FlipYrWhig
I still wish Krugman wouldn’t use the term “austerity” when it’s rather clear that there is a Democratic approach to deficit/debt reduction that is geared at _long-term_ changes in spending priorities while protecting programs that provide both short-term and long-term benefit. IMHO “austerity” is becoming the new “corporate,” a shibboleth that shows the person using it is down with the struggle. Like when an academic uses the word “hegemony.”
Jane2
I personally favour the cult of people who actually want to govern, and there appear to be a dearth of such elected folks on both sides. Krugman falls into the same trap as the rest of the media hacks here.
joes527
The K-Thug haters are missing his point.
He isn’t criticizing Obama here _at_ _all_.*
He is pointing out that the narrative that “both sides are doin’ it” is empirically, objectively, fundamentally, unquestionably, unequivocally false.
But what some people seem to be seeing is
*I’m not sain’ he wouldn’t, or hasn’t, or won’t criticize Obama fairly or unfairly, just that that is not what is going on in this quote.
Flame away!
Sharl
@Kathy in St. Louis:
This is a very key component of the Propaganda Machine that doesn’t get enough emphasis, IMO. It’s not enough to just ‘put it out there’ – it needs to be repeated, over and over and over again.
In this July 15, 2004 show (2:47), Jon Stewart – there is is again! – addresses the media “jack hammer” (‘pile driver’ might be slightly more apt, but close enough).
ppcli
Just to add: The obsession with spurious illusion of “balance” is destructive, that’s true. But it’s really a symptom of a deeper, even more destructive problem, which is the refusal to just present basic, uncontroversial facts. For example, the pie graph that shows how money is spent (Half of it for non-discretionary spending, 50% of the remaining non-discretionary half for military spending, etc.) should be posted every single f**king time someone acts as if you could eliminate the deficit by keeping taxes fixed and just eliminating foreign aid, support for NPR and Planned Parenthood, and genetic research on drosophphila melangaster. [Fruit flies? Haw, haw. What could you ever learn from that?]
Or, since people are apparently addicted to homey analogies to household finance, it should be required by law that anyone who makes claims that are so blindly oblivious to simple accounting facts should be compared to someone who says “Hmm…. my salary was cut by a third, and my household budget had 50% of my old salary called for by taxes, the mortgage, car payments and credit-card debt service, plus child-support payments I’m legally obligated to continue. No wiggle room there. 10% was for utilities, cable TV, phone, water, sewage, etc. And I spent another 25% on purchases of guns and ammunition, plus gun club fees, hunting trips, NRA dues, and so on. How to get by? I know! Every Sunday after Church I get ice-cream cones for me and the kids at Dairy Queen. I’ll just stop doing that, and everything will be fine!
Davis X. Machina
Krugman, like most switch-hitters, has a different batting average from each side. (Blame ira-NY for putting me in in mind of baseball). He is, depending on how you feel about late-modern orthodox (non-neo-Scholastic) economics, batting about 60 points higher from the polemicist side of the plate than the economist side,
slag
@joes527:
That was Yoram Bauman. But you’re right, it was a great line.
slag
@No Fortunate Son:
You guys kinda missed out on the definition of “cult” in this post, you realize? Unless you are accusing Kthug of having charisma, etc.
liberal
Speaking only for myself, I think Krugman’s been right about a lot of things, and in particular a lot of political things.
OTOH, Krugman’s been wrong about many things, and since I’m not a cultist, I’m quite prepared to list them:
* Wrong on his overly optimistic support of free trade treaties (at least a decade or two ago)
* Wrong on his suggestion of Swedish-style bank nationalization during the post-Lehman crisis (Swedes didn’t force bondholders to take a haircut, which is grotesquely unjust IMHO)
* Wrong when he claimed that futures oil markets can’t affect spot price of oil.
OTOH, the O-bots around here don’t seem to think Obama is ever wrong about anything. Like when Glenn Greenwald (cue the fainting couches! The number of the beast!) tweeted back to “rootless_e” (who used to post here awhile back) on the topic of slavish devotion to Obama: “You have about 30,000 tweets. Can you point to a single one that’s critical of Obama?”
different church-lady
@ ira-NY: Here’s the problem: anyone with eyes could tell it was a blown call.
But anyone with four instant replay angles and the ability to key through them frame by frame could tell the umpire got it right.
Apply this to politics at your own hazard.
4jkb4ia
Not quite, John! Something like “Worst.Congress.Ever.” blames partisanship and more extreme partisanship–more distinct lines between the parties–without going into what Jesse Jackson did twenty years ago. From the page I linked, however, Ornstein did blame the Republicans first.
I guess this is getting into DougJ’s post. But you probably know to respect Norman Ornstein, and I certainly do. But the voices of real experts get muted in our media or if they are someone like David Leonhardt, who really knows how to find and use good information, get kicked upstairs. Leonhardt did, however, say that in his new job he was going to try to get behind the surface of what they were saying in Washington to what they were really saying. Actual meaning is better than “both sides do it” any day, to which Leonhardt isn’t prone.
4jkb4ia
To have a cult of the center you need people who are motivated by partisanship– by faction–at whom you can look down your nose. You can find those in Washington easily. They don’t have to be an average Tea Partier who is alienated from everything except their bubble.
4jkb4ia
@ira-NY: Is that right!? I imagine the umpires wanted to go home.
MBunge
“You have about 30,000 tweets. Can you point to a single one that’s critical of Obama?”
Since every word Greenwald writes about Obama is a slam, even “a” and “the”, he’s not exactly in the best position to criticize others for having a knee-jerk reaction to the man.
Mike
FlipYrWhig
His chief point is that the media is wrong to say that both sides are doing it. His secondary point is that what Democrats and Obama are doing is overly conservative and involves a “wrongheaded emphasis on austerity.” I think “austerity” is a loaded term that’s being misapplied. That’s more interesting to me to discuss than the obvious point that both sides are not equally at fault. YMMV.
MattR
@No Fortunate Son: Interesting screed. Too bad you lost any chance of me paying attention when you make the false claim that Krugman “sat on Enron’s Board of Directors”. Generally speaking, using falsehoods is a poor way to convince an audience that someone else is being two-faced or one-sided.
4jkb4ia
“Wrongheaded emphasis on austerity in the face of high unemployment”
That is the first thing. The context is high unemployment, which ought to call for more spending and not less.
The second thing is the NYRB article that Krugman is using said that the Obama political team thinks that independent voters like cutting spending. No distinction was made about term.
The third thing is that austerity is being engaged in at the state and local level, and no one is talking about federal help for them.
MattR
@4jkb4ia:
Or worse, the federal help is being cut. Just heard a report on the radio that construction for the Second Avenue Subway in NYC is in jeopardy if the federal government is not able to make good on the $$ they previously committed.
MBunge
That is the first thing. The context is high unemployment, which ought to call for more spending and not less.
And my current dry spell ought to call for me to have sex with Scarlett Johansson. I have no idea how to bring that about and Krugman has even less of a clue of how to get more spending in this environment. The difference is that I don’t constantly complain about my lack of Johansson intercourse.
Mike
tomvox1
I am soooo glad MoDo gets to the real, true genesis of the Tea Party:
Just shoot me (for reading MoDo)…
The Tragically Flip
MattR beats me to it at #70, but yeah, Krugman was never on Enron’s board of directors. He did briefly sit on an advisory panel for them in the late 90s and describes it in detail:
http://www.pkarchive.org/personal/EnronFAQ.html
Even saying there’s a “cult” of Krugman is engaging in the very type of false equivalence this post is talking about. I like Krugman a lot because he says a lot of stuff I really agree with, and in many cases had already though of privately. I think criticism of his free trade advocacy particularly through the 80s and 90s is entirely fair, but that doesn’t make him wrong about stuff today.
I also tend to ignore anyone who plays the “Hillbot” card. Krugman had a very pointed, specific criticism of Obama’s health care plan during the primaries: It needed a mandate. Lo and behold, the real bill included a mandate and Krugman came out in support of it. That was a big deal that convinced a large number of on-the-fence liberals to support passing the final bill, myself included. If there’s other evidence he’s a “Hillbot” I’d like to hear it.
MattR
@MBunge:
Really? That’s the only difference? There is no difference in the media coverage being given to the two issues? Maybe I am missing all the pundits constantly opining about what a good thing it is that you are not having sex with Scarlett Johansson. And I am pretty sure the consequences are a bit different too. But other than that, great analogy.
4jkb4ia
This is people’s lives. As John posted about yesterday, the longer you stay unemployed, the less likely you will be to find a job again. The difficulty in average time out of work for those 55-64 makes raising the Medicare age now crazier.
I wasn’t clear inasmuch as Obama has expressed that cutting spending will reduce uncertainty and give people more incentive to hire–cutting spending is a solution to high unemployment in a certain sense.
Corner Stone
@MBunge:
This is the analogy you want to go with?
The Tragically Flip
@MBunge:
Why say things like this that are easily refuted?
here’s a recent Greenwald tweet:
I can certainly remember various other examples, and I’ve seen him respond to this (very stupid) criticism before.
Anyway, even if he was 100% critical, that wouldn’t make any of his criticisms wrong, but I guess just claiming that he is unfailingly critical (even when it’s objectively false) is a good way of ignoring the messy stuff about ongoing indefinite detentions, claiming the power to assassinate US citizens, using Bush-approved secrecy claims to get out of all lawsuits and all the rest of it.
MattR
@4jkb4ia:
Unfortunately, this is largely a right wing talking point that has no basis in fact.
4jkb4ia
Here’s E.J. Dionne making the same point–this poll shows more people believing that cutting spending will help with jobs over time because that is what they see and read
MattR
@4jkb4ia: I may be misunderstanding your point. Isn’t that more of a reason that Obama should not be reinforcing a false belief? As Dionne says,
Heliopause
I don’t think so, Krugman writes frequently that the GOP has a crazy wing with disproportionate influence, and he’s absolutely right that the centrists are running cover for it. The craziest quintile will always be with us, but the privileged, educated class that enable this stupidity have no excuse.
liberal
4jkb4ia wrote,
Yes, in the sense that it’s entirely wrong and is ass-backwards.