And for the love of fucking christ, can you other front pagers stop making stupid fucking categories you only use once?
I don’t know what you’re so grumpy about, Mr Cole.
Isn’t the world a better place for the #notintendedtobeafactualstatement tag category?
And “Sweet Fancy Moses!” makes me laugh every time I see it.
But then, I still don’t have my name in the Contact list, so what do I know?
btw – Open Thread.
Note: No new tags categories were created for the purposes of this post.
BerkeleyMom
TBogg has my favorite–“Shutupdumblady” for his Sarah Palin posts.
Libby
To be fair to the grumpy guy, as a long time group blogger that makes me a little cranky too. It’s a PITA to find a tag you can’t quite remember but want to use, if you have to scroll through a hundred tags that were only used once.
bondirotta
GOP is already signaling they will force Dems to vote for this atrocity of a bill.
Not only did they prove that blackmail works, they will get media behind them and have the power to force massive cuts on the elderly, children and sick.
Now they will force Democratic congressmen to vote for this or the bill will fail. They may have gone too far in their lunacy on this one. Lindsay Graham is already demanding 100 Dem votes. I cannot believe he will get it.
PsiFighter37
Massive fail. If the deal currently being discussed is actually what is agreed upon, I really will just not care what happens next year in elections.
Talk about snatching epic defeat from the jaws of victory. Unbelievable. Democrats have an innate ability to screw these things up.
srv
Well, tags are supposed to be useful, and they really aren’t here. So I don’t get why y’all use them. I really only wish for two tags – “Epic Rants by John” and one for Dengre’s fucking awesome, should be nominated for a web award and I would if there was a fucking tag for them “
RepublicanConfederate Party” series.13th Generation
Obama’s Got This!! Just ask ABL.
PeakVT
The only thing I know about the tags here at BJ is that “Beer Blogging” is woefully underused despite being at the top of the list.
jeffreyw
#Mmm…eggsforbreakfastfoodpr0n
arguingwithsignposts
These are not tags, they are categories, which are supposed to be different, but bj came of age before tags were widely used.
Sarah Proud and Tall - A Shameful Instance of the Coarsening of Discourse for over 93 Years
@Libby:
I’ll always be grateful for Mr Cole’s kindness in allowing me to swear and say nasty things about David Brooks on the front page of his blog, so I try to be on my best behavior. However, sometimes the siren call of the “Add New Category” button is just too sweet and beguiling to ignore.
Southern Beale
Is this an open thread? I’m confused.
Anyone else read today’s NY Times piece on the wackadoodle who launched our national Sharia Law fearmongering campaign? I did a thing on it today, it reminded me of all the other wackadoodles who have launched fearmongering campaigns against every other group.
Linda Featheringill
@PsiFighter37:
I’m assuming that it is a lousy deal but really don’t have any details. Does anyone have links?
If it is as bad as I fear it will be, I can really empathize and perhaps even join you. And I am a hardcore Obot.
dr. bloor
Thanks for the clarification. All that flesh had me thinking it was a snapshot from Bingo night at the Home.
KoolEarl
Will there be Obama apologists left if this abomination is agreed upon?
PurpleGirl
@Southern Beale: I haven’t visited your blog today nor spent much time at the Times site. Thanks for the comment alert, I’ll be stopping by your place shortly.
bondirotta
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/174573-gop-ready-to-declare-victory-in-debt-fight
So… no revenue raise even in the trigger.
If the super duper committee does not agree on demolishing social safety net on the eve of the next recession, deep automatic cuts for veterans, mentally ill, Pell grants, etc.
Plus they will demand 100 Dem votes for this.
Cannot WAIT for the election ads pinning the cuts on those Democrats who vote for this.
PurpleGirl
@Linda Featheringill: Go over to Hullabaloo. Digby and Thereisnospoon have posts on the details of the bill. It’s really bad; Norquist loves it. I think that sums it up. Norquist loves it.
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/
PeakVT
@Linda Featheringill: Klein summarizes the deal (as we know it) and tries to put a positive face on it.
beltane
@KoolEarl: Only the ones getting paid for it.
Southern Beale
@PurpleGirl:
Thanks, PG!
And I just read this Charles Babington post about how voters are to blame for the dysfunction in Washington, which I thought was pretty good.
jeffreyw
André Gide,
on repetitionon blog commenting:“Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no one was listening, everything must be said again”
Lolis
This type of deal would go beyond a shit sandwich. If Democrats pass anything like this I am done. I will be investigating Canada or Europe. I hear Vancouver is a stunning city.
At some points Dems need to be unwilling to compromise. I doubt this deal would be as bad the leak but it will still be super regressive and harmful for the poorest among us. Dems won’t stand up for those people in this fight. If not now, when?
bondirotta
The media is still not discussing any specifics about what these cuts mean in reality.
This bill will get through or fail with zero public discussion about the actual impact.
That impact is going to be one hell of a surprise for tens of millions of people.
Dennis SGMM
@PurpleGirl:
Just plain Damn! The only thing the Republicans missed was demanding that they decide which Democrats will be on the super commission.
“It could have been worse” isn’t exactly going to galvanize Democratic voters in ’12.
Brachiator
The Democrats are not being forced; they are happily going along with this bullshit.
They Republicans would have caved. Their corporate masters had spelled out the consequences for them.
Now, the GOP will be able to brag that they held the line on tax cuts, and will be able to focus on killing health care reform. And if the compromise really contains a provision for automatic spending cuts, the Republicans have found a mechanism to cripple the federal government without lifting a finger. This shit is better than a balanced budget amendment.
This leaves Obama with a weak pledge that he will work later on to undo this shit, along with repealing the Bush tax cuts. But spending time and political capital to undo shit is not the same thing as working to implement your own agenda.
And as I noted before, every freaking tax plan on the table, apart from Obama’s weak outline, preserves tax cuts for the rich, and massive benefits for corporations, while choking the middle class to death.
I have had it with all Democrats.
We need a tag for the Art of Dumbass Democratic Compromise.
CaseyL
I take faint and fading hope in the fact that it’s been Mitch McConnell running around saying a deal is near, a deal is near. He’s trying to stampede the WH and the Senate into going along.
Faint and fading hope, though, because TPM has posted an item reporting that Harry Reid will put something-or-other up for a vote at 1:00 Eastern time, come hell or high water.
We know from past budget-cutting negotiations that details do matter: what kind of cuts, who is affected, when will they go into effect, and how many years are the cuts spread out over.
But by all accounts everywhere about the deal, it gives the GOP everything those treasonous bastards wanted except a balanced budget amendment.
We’re regressing to the 1890s, Gilded Age and all. I have never seen a nation commit suicide like this, and I’m never going to come out of shock at how easily the Right Wing took us down.
Unabogie
Obot here. And I’ll continue to be mad. At the people holding the hostages. You know, Republicans?
Why is it people on the left act like the protagonist from Memento? You know, it was just in the last scene that Bush ran the country into the ground for eight years. Then in the next scene, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, and Obama passed a bunch of good legislation that moved us in the right direction. Then in the next scene, Teabaggers spit in your tea and as you drink the loogie,all you can think about is they told you Obama is the guy who killed your wife.
Lenny, it wasn’t Obama.
beltane
@Lolis: If the Dems won’t stand up for their people in a fight, why should their people bother voting for them? So that they can have their lives torn apart from “their side”? If our government only exists to further the interests of the very rich, no matter which party we vote for, what incentive is there for non-rich people to vote? Voting in the USA is becoming as ridiculous as voting in the USSR used to be.
I will continue to support my state and local Democrats because they do outstanding work to improve the lives of the people who put them into office. I really can’t say the same about my president right now.
Joseph Nobles
And this Super Committee, oy.
Let’s set aside the extra-constitutional nature of its existence. Sorry, Mr. Madison, can’t hack your bicameral bullshit one minute more.
Look at how it works. Latest information, sure, revenues and spending cuts can be proposed. But who loses most in the no-amendments, up-or-down-vote nature of the recommendations? The Senate. No amendments, no filibuster.
And the triggers to force action in the Super Committee? Cuts to Medicare and defense. Ha! If you really wanted a knife to a Republican throat, make the immediate expiration of the Bush tax cuts for incomes over $250,000 one of the triggers.
Veal Pen, indeed.
srv
@Dennis SGMM:
Like it would matter.
PeakVT
With the caveat that nothing is final until it’s final, the deal as outlined is FSM-awful. No revenue now, no revenue later, a bizarre joint committee of Congress that either has to produce more cuts or a across-the-board trigger will be invoked, and cuts in first place when we’re in a deep unemployment slump that is rapidly converting formerly productive workers into the permanently unemployed.
Fuck it. Bring on the default. If this country is going down, let’s get it over with now.
bondirotta
I also think Mitch is bluffing. ABC News had the leak first; they are Fox News Lite.
Teabaggers will not vote for this – Reid is trying to have the vote early to prevent voters from reaching their Dem representatives.
I don’t think that 100 Democratic votes in Congress is a done deal. Nancy can derail this if she wants to. The fate of this country now rides on this sassy San Francisco grandma. Obama is useless… Nancy can spike this monstrosity by demanding that GOP votes for it.
Linda Featheringill
Thanks for the links, everyone.
I think that we, the people would be better off if we went into default [by whatever definition that includes].
The whole idea of the “Super Congress” really sucks. Royal. This is representation? Is it constitutional? Or is it Rule-by-the-Twelve?
No new revenues? Bad economics. Unemployment, depressed wages, aging population, etc. will increase the need for support.
Built in “triggers” to force compliance? Yuck! I am supposed to agree this? No way.
Repeated [continuous?] struggle between progressives and the Tea Party? No thank you. And if Obama agrees to this, then he is an idiot.
Damn.
robertdsc-PowerBook
@PeakVT:
This.
arguingwithsignposts
The triggers are worrying to me too. Like the GOP wouldn’t do with a little defense cutting if they can have cuts to SS and the Medic family (are and aid)? This just gives them more reason to double down on the crazy.
beltane
Tom Friedman will love the Super-Congress. It takes us a quite a ways closer to the Chinese form of governance he loves so much.
Unfortunately, the other two countries I am legally entitled to reside in are also basket cases so I my expat options are really not there.
Brachiator
@Unabogie:
. Except that right now, today, Pelosi and Reid are not passing anything, and Obama and the Democrats are giving the GOP everything that they want. They are also empowering conservative governors to continue to undo federal programs. And Obama is handing the GOP an unbeatable debating point. “Mr Obama, if you believe that spending cuts without revenue is bad for the country, why did you approve every Republican plan that cut spending and explicitly rejected tax increases?”
The current position of all Democrats seems to be, “we will make shit worse now, but promise to fight to make it better in the future.”. This is insane. I don’t think that I have seen a stupider Democratic Party in my lifetime. Boehner was on the freaking ropes, and the Democrats just saved his ass.
And people want to talk about what Pelosi and Reid and Obama got for them in the past?
PeakVT
Or maybe I’m just hallucinating all of this. Somebody tell me I’m hallucinating. Please. I’ll pay good money if you can convince me.
beltane
PeakVt is correct. If we are all going to be screwed anyway, at least let us be screwed in such a way as to cause a little bit of unease among the Galtians. The only hope we’ve been left with is that one day we will be able to enjoy a bit of schadenfreude at our overlords’ expense.
Dennis SGMM
No one could have anticipated that the Republicans would beat Obama at 11 Dimensional Chess.
Evolved Deep Southerner
Speaking of hallucinations, I don’t see no fuckin’ “Reply” button anywhere. Did I hallucinate John saying on a recent thread that he was bringing it back? Is it actually back and I have to DO something to make it appear? I hope not. I hate doing shit.
arguingwithsignposts
@Evolved Deep Southerner: Quit your browser and reboot, or flush the cache.
Raven (formerly stuckinred)
@Evolved Deep Southerner: Hover your cursor over the lower right portion of the message.
MikeJ
I heard Obama is going to sell Bernie Sanders for organ meat. It must be true because I read it on the interwebs.
suzanne
I knew I shouldn’t think about it. I knew I shoulda had a really strong drink.
Ezra is of the opinion that the Dems will be in the stronger bargaining position when the Bush tax cuts expire, so it’s okay that this is totally fucked.
I am not of that opinion.
I am increasingly of the opinion that the red states should just secede and get it over with. I’ll move.
Linda Featheringill
I called my senators. Got a person at Brown’s office, left a message at Portman’s office. Tried representative but no one is there and the message mail box is full. Also tried Nancy Pelosi but that mailbox is full, too.
yeahyeahwhatevs (Studly Pantload, once upon a time)
The debt ceiling fiasco is proceeding on schedule toward exactly where’s it’s been telegraphing it would go for several weeks, now – Absobuttfuckinglutely Nowheresville. This has been something easily visible from even the vantage point of the moon.
Unless you’re the type who has felt it in their bones for many a year that the undeniable sensibilities of Ayn Rand would one day wash over the gen pop like a cool, clear freshwater tsunami.
The current proffered deal would undo the gains of the Pelosi/Reid Congress as well as the better part of a century of the progressive agenda. Recall how much the Dems and Obama put on the line to pass ACA; this endeavor was fairly successfully demonized, and much political capital was invested with the knowledge that the returns could only be long term, that the near term cost would be dear.
And Obama, Reid, Pelosi, et al., are going to piss that away to appease a legislatively-retarded fringe sect of the House?
Really?
Really?
No, no, answer me that with a straight face —
Really?
You’re Obama. You have a couple decisions before you:
Invoke the 14th and the corresponding Constitutional crisis (for which the Senate will totally cover your ass) —
or
Willingly preside over the Great American Economic Engine sliding into the ocean.
My money’s on the former option being selected, however “reluctantly.”
Actually, all of our money’s on the former option, whether we wish to offer it up or not.
And if I’m wrong, well, then I guess I start buying into the notion of the People’s Glorious Uprising, ’cause I’m gonna be one of the scores of millions of gobsmacked disillusioned with no appetite for participating in the established political process.
Dennis SGMM
@suzanne:
What in the world makes Ezra think that the Republicans will let the Bush tax cuts expire? They will bluster, the Dems will cave. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Jinxtigr
That’s a hell of a big caveat. I want to have more of a sense of how this can be gamed out. Can this ‘Central Committee’ be twisted away from the right wing and made progressive? To what extent can there be chicago-lawyer trickery in all this to deliver strikingly different outcomes from what it’s intended to look like?
You’ve got to remember that the inexperienced teahadists need to be TRICKED. I’m not sure I’m even ready to look to my own state’s Bernie Sanders for a sense of what all this means- I need him to keep being a liberal firebrand, it’s okay with me if he too is tricked so he can look upset for the teahadis’ benefit. I’d look to the most experienced Dems to get a sense of what this means. I’d look to Pelosi, etc.
If they seem to be not worried, it tells me they have a game plan. Look to the ones who are not so much ideologues, but the ones who are scary good at procedural and parliamentary stuff, the ones controlling the caucus and delivering the votes.
My concern is very much not what people PRETEND will happen in ten years, but with things like line of succession in the power structure right now, whether we can count on the absence of a right-winger coup, whether we can avoid default and not cause all the moronic stock market wealth-holders to freak out and smash the place up.
And, with how things look expressed through the Mordoch/Fox dominated, corporate-controlled media that gives most information to the votes in play that dictate how our society operates. It means NOTHING to get progressive concessions now, if they are a strategic handicap going forward.
What’s needed is increasing understanding of where the extreme rightwingers are, as communicated through the MSM- at any cost. It doesn’t matter what gets passed or altered or procedurally defused or repealed as long as some of the media lockdown is defused.
batgirl
Yes, I’m disgusted. Obama has my vote in 2012 but not a dime or ounce of effort. I say this as someone who maxed out my contribution to him and pounded the pavement in 2008. I just can’t make any argument for him except the other team is worse.
What an absolute fucking disaster. Democrats deserve to lose, they just don’t deserve to lose to Republicans.
At the same time, the American populace (yes it is a fucking generalization) get the politics, idiots, criminals, and cowards they deserve. It is easy to just blame the politicians, but we don’t vote, we don’t organize or protest, we are easily duped by lies and misinformation, we want services but don’t want to pay for them and we care more about Casey Anthony than the fact that a substantial part of our population can’t find a decent paying job.
Obama better hope those mythical independents are won over (haha) because with this deal he has lost the Democratic base and those enthusiastic new voters from 2008.
beltane
Yes, because having succeeded so brilliantly with hostage taking in the past, the Republicans will learn the error of their ways and stop taking hostages. If anything, the end result will be that the Republicans get the Bush tax cuts made permanent in exchange for not exterminating low income children.
Unabogie
@Brachiator:
No, what I’m saying is that this is the result of allowing 100 lunatics to be elected to congress. Where was “the base” during the 2009 summer of crazy? They were whining about the public option instead of schlepping out to town halls to balance out the noise. They were telling everyone who would listen that they were sitting out 2010 elections. And if they voted? Who cares, they didn’t go out and do the hard work of winning the election. They didn’t help convince their neighbors that the Democratic policies were better policies. So they got booted out and you now have one half of congress and almost one half of the other one being run by lunatics. So “we” gave them power and they’re using it. The solution is to take that power away and direct the blame and anger where it belongs. Not that I have any expectations that this will occur. I’m just pointing out that it’s the only way out of the mess. Take the keys away from the nutter who’s driving the car off the cliff and stop blaming the people he’s locked in the trunk.
arguingwithsignposts
@batgirl:
Joe Walsh won with like 400 votes in his district in IL. That’s at least 49 percent of the people in his district who don’t get the representation they deserve. It’s not always *we* that are the problem.
Brachiator
Ezra must be on some mighty powerful medication.
yeahyeahwhatevs (Studly Pantload, once upon a time)
To my post above, I would add the following two outcomes, should Obama be forced to invoke the 14th:
A) All this talk of massive budget cuts with no even-partially corresponding tax hikes will become so much effluvia of a time of political madness, and,
B) The notion that Republicans will always, always opt for the Whiny Little Bitch path of impeachment when a Dem has the balls to occupy the White House will be cemented in the public mind for at least a generation.
cleek
oh look, all the fair-weather liberals are going to go hang themselves.
that’ll help achieve their policy goals, fer sher!
WereBear
Exactly.
There’s no point in saying, “Go ahead and shoot the baby, we’ll get the finest medical expertise in the world!”
I also remember the OHNOES were deafening over the last deal; it wasn’t until the Republicans started whining they were gamed that a chunk of the Left caught on too; which was just as well, because that would give the whole tactic away, wouldn’t it?
If people complaining that this is theworstdealevah keeps the Tea Partiers walking into traps; whale on, John Donne.
Dennis SGMM
@Unabogie:
I blame Jane Hamsher and the progressives. No, wait, Democratic losses in 2010 were well within historical norms of mid-terms for the party in power. Carry on carrying on.
gogol's wife
@Unabogie:
This. Everybody acts as if the election of 2010 never happened.
beltane
Exactly. We need an opposition party that has a deep and abiding hatred of the Republicans and all that they stand for. I do not want to accommodate evil, I want to see it vanquished.
gogol's wife
@beltane:
Such a party could never elect a president in this country. It could only make sure that the Republican candidate wins. Compare 2000.
Lolis
@Unabogie:
In Austin we had a 2 K rally in support of health care reform. Guess what? No national coverage and barely any local coverage. We got less coverage than 50 angry tea partiers on any given day. The media is not interested when liberals get mad. This whole thing is a disaster. I agree that it looks like Obama just saved Boehner and McConnell. They took McConnell’s offer and made it ten times worse all so Boehner won’t have to rely on Democratic votes in the House. WTF. I mean really, WTF?
Jinxtigr
“I’m not a King. I’m President. The power of the purse rests with Congress, and the plans were theirs to propose. You’ll notice they’re suffering terribly now, which is why I (insert progressive welfare proposals for red states), which they’re currently rejecting.”
“Now, (insert blue states with social safety net) are doing fine- they’re using Democratic plans to improve the quality of life for our citizens, and we’ve created (insert) jobs in those states to administer those programs. The people running those programs? They live there, they spend their money where they live. This is how an economy works.”
“I realize the Republicans are hurting their people by their policy choices, but those are the very people who elected them, and those people have a right to be represented as they see fit. We’re working on controlling some of the voting rights abuses in those areas, to make sure that they all remain completely free to vote for whoever they wish.”
“As far as approving these Republican plans, Congress is the only legitimate place from which any plan can emerge. We’ll try to minimize the damage as much as we possibly can- but you know when you have kids, and you catch them with the old ‘stop hitting yourself’ routine? Well, what exactly do you propose I do, when they are in fact hitting themselves?”
cleek
@Dennis SGMM:
they were?
it was the largest number of Republicans elected since 1946.
Mark S.
@Brachiator:
I was going go to with severe brain injury, but yeah, that’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever read.
Unabogie
@Dennis SGMM:
Except their opponents weren’t. Their opponents were crazy and we let them take power. Since The Base wasn’t yelling about them instead of Obama.
Brachiator
@Unabogie:
I am sorry, but this is irrelevant. Nothing but an attempt at misdirection. There is no point to talk about past election strategy, and even more ridiculous to blame voters.
The issue right now is how Obama and the Democrats govern.
They are incompetent. They have no agenda, no vision, and merely want to survive until the next election. Meanwhile, the Republicans are not only energized by a Tea Party that they should be rejecting, they have found a way to validate them.
This spending compromise will give Republicans the advantage as they work to kill health care, unions, and the entire middle class. And I am supposed to be mollified by the Democrats’ claim that they will do better next time if I continue voting for them?
suzanne
@Brachiator:
I concur with that assessment.
wrb
“Even six months ago I did believe that, and I do believe it with respect to the long term, but the economy is so vulnerable right now, so likely to fall into a depression, that it is not the time to raise taxes and even if it was we should be direct all our bargaining power toward achieving immediate stimulus.”
Unabogie
@Brachiator:
No, again, the solution is to take away the power that we gave the Republicans. And this starts with making sure they lose in 2012, therefore no compromise to make, no hostages to save, etc, etc.
It’s not too hard to point out that 2006 to 2010 saw none of this shit, is it?
beltane
@gogol’s wife: So our only two choices are: 1) To let the teabaggers destroy our country; or, 2)To let the Democrats work with the teabaggers to destroy our country.
Under these circumstances, anyone with any hope of a better life ought really to consider emmigration to a country that has the possibility of a less bleak future. I don’t even see the faintest glimmer of hope for the USA.
Corner Stone
@PurpleGirl:
Hmmmm…working with Norquist. Except actual legislation is passed…
Corner Stone
@KoolEarl:
Yes
SATSQ.
batgirl
@Brachiator:
Exactly. I can also guarantee you that Republicans will somehow manage to blame Democrats for cuts to Medicare, Social Security, etc. (see 2010) and this time they won’t be completely wrong.
I however will vote for them, but not because I believe they will do better next time. I will vote for them because the other party will do worse. It is all I have.
Wake me up when Americans are ready for a national strike.
Libby
Sarah Proud and Tall*, I understand the lure of the new tag and I’m sure Mr. Cole forgives you in light of your brilliantly amusing commentary. Just saying I understand his brief display of irritation as well.
(*no reply button in Chrome)
Lolis
@Unabogie:
I agree with some of your points. Republicans deserve the most blame. However, Obama has had over two years to come up with a workable strategy to deal with Republicans and there is no evidence that he has. Publicly at least, he refuses to acknowledge their radical and extremist tactics. The fact that his most optimistic supporters here and elsewhere are seriously upset with his actions does not bode well for him. He is fucking up. Yes, he has an impossible job but it is his job to make it possible. That is what he signed up for.
Brachiator
@Jinxtigr:
That’s odd. I live in California, a blue state with a diverse economy. And we are not doing fine. Not by a long shot.
And people who talk about the social safety net are living in some weird bubble. Unemployment is high, and wages have been stagnant for years. It is beyond pointless to talk about safety nets when the middle class is being destroyed.
And once again, here is the future news story. Apart from the Obama outline, every tax proposal being discussed, even those endorsed by Democrats, would eliminate middle class deductions and preserve benefits enjoyed by corporations and wealthy taxpayers.
And of course in your hypothetical presidential response, you omitted veto power, and every other method the president has of shaping the direction of legislation.
WereBear
And what country might that be? The right wing virus has infected Sweden, of all places. The scandal in the UK is over the death grip Murdock had on their media. Canada has its own crazy conservatives, too.
This is a global fight. There is no bailing out.
Evolved Deep Southerner
@arguingwithsignposts: I’ll be damned, it worked!
Linda Featheringill
Possible help from the TeaParty:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/60302.html
Evolved Deep Southerner
@Raven (formerly stuckinred): You are correct, sir! Many thanks. And by the way, long time, no speak, Dog. How’s the Classic City? And why “Raven” now, out of curiosity?
Unabogie
Maybe I’m just getting old, after watching this process go on for 30 years I just see the pattern. It occurred to me that the correct analogy here is a game of tug-of-war. Liberals are constantly pulling on one end, and conservatives on the other. When the other side starts making headway and we’re pulled into the mud of the center, we are rightly upset. But the solution is to get help pulling, so perhaps you might try and convince some of the people in the middle to start pulling your direction. If you can, you’ll pull the other side into the mud. But I think some people secretly wish there was a way to just cut the rope so you can relax and stop pulling. It doesn’t work this way and it never will. This is why I get the maddest at the people on my side who keep letting go of the rope every time we get muddy. Shut up and start pulling again!
The Raven
@Linda Featheringill:
I think so, too. I think the only thing this deal saves is Obama’s re-election chances, and that’s not even certain.
President Sauron? Has a ring to it.
Croak!
BTW, I like Brian Beutler’s on the compromise at Talking Points Memo, article.
The Raven
Jane Hamsher in a spitting mad post on primarying Obama: “Don’t Make Me Laugh.” Summary: she doesn’t think anyone could do it successfully, and she thinks all the possible challengers are compromised. Post.
Joseph Nobles
@suzanne: Yeah, I read that. The only problem is that the 2012 elections will be over and if the Republicans win the Senate and/or the White House, that analysis is toast.
The Raven
Brachiator
@Unabogie:
You’re joking, right? The Democrats have been masters of accommodation since the reign of Dubya.
And I have long argued that Obama and the Democrats allowed themselves to be backed into a corner in which they had to endorse an extension of the Bush tax cuts. When did that happen? Oh, yeah, 2010. But somehow you missed it.
It is not enough. When it comes to tax policy, the Democrats are helping the Republicans inflict the maximum amount of damage on the American people.
We need better, stronger, smarter Democrats, not this worn out, rudderless band of weaklings who just want to make it to the next electoral finish line so that they can disappoint us again.
The crazy thing is that they do not know how to maximize their victories, and are determined to give Republicans a tactical advantage. And then they expect voters to accept the lie that their capitulation represents the best possible deal that could be achieved.
Dr. Psycho
@PurpleGirl: Re Grover Norquist: Now that Osama bin Laden is dead, there is a new name at the top of the list of enemies of the United States….
danimal
Mostly an Obot, but I’m having a hard time finding a defense for this. We’re better off with a GOP led leap into default. The end result will be years of misery, just like the end result of Republican economic theory will be years of misery. But with a deal, the blame can be shared.
sixers
Obama’s got this! I saw it on the Lawrence O’Donnell show so it has to be true!
trollhattan
Anybody else feeling a little more free today? I am, after reading this:
WereBear
Then I think a lot of people don’t understand what “default” is.
It’s friggin’ economic death, okay?
I know the TP’s don’t know what it means, or they wouldn’t be dancing around the switch that would send our sun into supernova and burn the solar system into ash. That people might get.
Instead, people think it means their credit card interest will go up, and they’ll just pay it off. Or they don’t have credit card debt; aren’t they smart? Or it means Social Security doesn’t arrive for a bit; they’ll float Mom some rent money until this all gets straightened out.
But that’s not what it means. It means we go Weimar Republic and it never gets straightened out, ever.
Okay, we could have a World War and a few genocides and build back up from the ashes over decades. But frankly, there’s no longer a US to pull us out of the fire, is there?
Corner Stone
@danimal:
But with a deal President Obama will still have a shot at being re-elected. So… there’s that.
Corner Stone
@sixers:
Lawrence has been brilliant with his analysis! Just really laying down the smack on your ass throughout this whole thing!
Corner Stone
@WereBear:
Where is Pam Anderson as Barb Wire when we need her most?
Evolved Deep Southerner
@yeahyeahwhatevs (Studly Pantload, once upon a time):
If there’s no deal by the deadline, and I was Obama, here’s what I’d do:
In an address to the nation, I’d simply outline that the failure of Congress to address the debt ceiling issue has put me in a position where I have two paths available to me: Welching on the United States’ obligations or ignoring the debt limit. I’d be candid and saying that both paths were legally questionable.
That being the case, I’d say I’d rather take the path that maintains the full faith and credit of the United States and take my chances in court – as in the Supreme Court. Urge the SCOTUS to take up this matter just as quickly as it can and decide, once and for all, whether the 14th Amendment renders this whole unnecessary farce a moot point or not. Explain that I really didn’t want to go this route, but necessity and Republican insanity have forced my hand. Invite them and anyone else with standing to file their own arguments with the SCOTUS and let those bastards decide it.
Then continue paying bills until the case is heard. If the House wants to initiate impeachment proceedings over it, knock yourself out. If the question were called and argued quickly – and I can’t believe both sides don’t have briefs written and waiting somewhere – it could be decided before the House would even have time to move, procedurally. After all, the SCOTUS can move quickly when it needs to. I believe “The Pentagon Papers” case of 1972 was decided in something like nine days after the Nixon Administration invoked Prior Restraint; this seems at least as urgent a question as that.
I could honestly see the Roberts Court voting 9-0 affirming the unconstitutionality of the debt limit. If there’s one thing that bunch has shown, it’s that the best interests of Big Business trumps all other considerations – even giving a Democratic President a new privilege.
If they went the other way, if Obama lost that gamble … in that case, fuck, I don’t know what I’d do. But in the end, what do you have to lose? And what stronger position could you possibly be in headed into election season than either “I stood up to Congress and refused to fuck over our senior citizens, our disabled, our bondholders, our federal workers,” etc., or “I tried my best, y’all, but my hands are tied. If the Congress won’t let me live up to our obligations, then THOSE sons of bitches can decide who gets paid and who gets fucked over. I await their instructions on how to proceed.”
Brachiator
@Unabogie:
Alexander the Great. Gordian Knot. The seemingly intractable problem solved by the bold stroke.
Early on, Obama showed promise that he would not be content to play the old style political game. He was even right in sometimes defying his own party. But he doesn’t seem to get how the rise of the Tea Party has changed the political landscape. Meanwhile, the Democrats in Congress are swiftly falling back into their worst habits.
Worse, the Democrats are not paying attention to how people are fighting back against conservatives at the state level. Instead of taking heart, the Democrats at the federal level are playing it safe.
It is suicidal to support a party that continues to make bad decisions just because their hearts are in the right place, especially when that party agrees to the worst proposals of the opposition.
batgirl
@Brachiator:
I agree and I will vote for better, stronger, smarter Democrats when I’m given a chance. When my only choice is between the Democrats we have and the Republicans, then I will vote for the Democrats.
wrb
Funny, seems only days ago that people were saying that the republicans had shown themselves to be so utterly insane, so utterly irresponsible, so willing to destroy the country if they didn’t get their way that at least people will blame them and not Obama for the inevitably bad outcome.
I doubted it.
It sure was disproven fast though- and one doesn’t even have to go to Redstate to witness. Is there anything republicans can do so foul that they will suffer?
ruemara
I’m sorry, but most of y’all are nuts. It’s Obama and Pelosi and Reid to blame? Here’s the issue: Democrats care about governance and consequences. McConnell, Boehner et al, care about power and winning, damn the consequences. If you have nothing to lose, you’re more than willing to blow every thing up. The guy with something to lose, will eventually capitulate, no matter how horrific the act. Fucking stupid splatter porn like SAW is full of nonsense like this. Perhaps stupid people should not have handed the reigns to the wallet over to a collection of psychos? But based on the polling where the same psychos who are willing to destroy the middle, working and poor classes to make slaves to corporations-are actually gaining approval-I see most of America will only be satisfied until their children are being slaughtered in holy wars for water and oil, their daughters only hope is to prostituted to the local baron and bear a son for him, and the gays get stoned. You give power to insanity, you get insanity cubed. There was no decent solution to this and I defy all those who think that Obama/whoever should have done X” to honestly explain how they’d deal with feckless Lords of Senate 08-10 and Lunatic Asylum House 10-12. If I was Obama, I’d be impeached because I could give a damn how legal the shit I wanted to do was, I’d just do it out of spite. But I don’t give a damn about consequences, which would make me a liberal version of teabagger congress.
Brachiator
@WereBear:
Bullshit. And if the markets caved and interest rates rose for a quarter or two, Obama could say to the GOP, “you did not believe the economists. You were wrong. Now raise the debt ceiling and STFU.”
As it stands, the proposal being leaked means economic death for the middle class. How is this a better alternative?
The Raven
@WereBear
I suspect any default would be patched up, and the main result would be long-term rises in interest rates. Which is bad, of course. But look at this deal! The direct macroeconomic consequences are also very bad, and then there are the long-term consequences. Aside from casting old people into poverty and denying them medical treatment, any future cuts will be made from depression-level tax revenues. Default might even be better. The main differences between default and this deal, it seems to me, are the political consequences.
@Evolved Deep Southerner: If Obama invokes the 14th amendment as you suggest, there’s already talk of impeaching him. The Tea Party Republicans don’t like the 14th amendment anyway–this might be just the excuse needed to start a repeal movement. David Neiwert, post.
wrb
@Corner Stone:
President Bachman will be no different /snark
PeakVT
Latest vote in the Senate. Cloture on Reid’s original, less sucky plan goes down 50/49/1. Manchin, Nelson, and Sanders voted against it (plus Reid for procedural reasons). Whatever compromise the negotiations barf out will be attached as an amendment later in the day.
Brachiator
@ruemara:
The Democrats are giving power to insanity.
Your only choice is between Republicans and Democrats who submit to Republicans. Either way, you get Republicans. Good luck with that.
gogol's wife
@Brachiator:
“Your only choice is between Republicans and Democrats who submit to Republicans.” You really don’t see the difference between President Obama and President Bachmann, do you? Do you? I guess you’ll have the pleasure of finding out. Too bad I don’t deserve to, but you do.
gocart mozart
@Linda Featheringill:
At this point I am rooting for no deal or compromise. I have to assume that enough Republicans will eventually be forced to vote for a clean bill prior to complete economic meltdown. They can’t all be that crazy, Right?
Mark S.
I’m afraid the beatings will continue until morale improves. Now clap louder, or the
terroristsBachmanns will have won.Mark S.
@gocart mozart:
We can’t take that chance! We must immediately surrender to teatardnomics!
MazeDaner
@WereBear:
And it hasn’t been ruled out yet either. The TParty isn’t going to vote for anything missing a BBA.
If there is no default on Wednesday, something very big will have been accomplished.
Mr. Obama needs to use his firey passionate side MUCH more in his speeches. He needs to emotionally engage the country, not just professorially explain. His not doing that is a huge failure of leadership, IMHO. Emotional engagement is a requirement for leadership in Reality TV America.
Otherwise, with the TParty in control of default, not exactly how he manages the goals of 1) No default 2) None of this default diversion repeated anytime soon if he has to use the legislative process and not just be King.
What if he manages to introduce a jobs bill this fall? Or do something we like in the next 8 months? Or get the Repubs to have to close oil company loopholes in December because Americans are so angry they may finally do something participatory besides watch sports?
Will we like him better then?
Am I upset? Completely. Do I think spineless Obama is the cause of this disaster or sitting at home and not fighting to win elections is the solution? No.
There are no alternatives right now other than winning elections. We lost last time. We have to win next time.
And survive to get to that chance.
That is all there is.
Corner Stone
@MazeDaner: You sound a lot like a commenter who used to post here, named “MazeDancer”.
Maybe you’re Danish cousin of his/hers ?
Admiral_Komack
‘Smurfs’ ties ‘Cowboys & Aliens’ at box office
Both Cowboys & Aliens and TheSmurfs claimed $36,206,250, the first time in more than a decade that the No. 1 movies have claimed the exact gross. A winner will be announced when final figures are released Monday.
Aliens fell about $4 million short of expectations, while Smurfs did $15 million more than projected despite horrendous reviews. And considering Smurfs was a kids’ movie, the attendance contest likely went to Smurfs even if Aliens wins the dollar battle, as parents typically pay discounted tickets for their children.
“There’s a lot of Smurf love out there in the country,” says Sony distribution head Rory Bruer. “Probably in groups you don’t expect. We’re thrilled to say there’s no No. 1.”
http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2011-07-31-box-office-Aug-1_n.htm
WereBear
Like I said. You are both intelligent people and I usually agree with you. But you’re wrong.
On a purely pragmatic economic basis, we have a car engine that is not running well; missing on several cylinders and in bad need of a tuneup. But if we go to default, it would open the drain pan and let all the oil out.
There is no saying “whoopsie!” and walking to a gas station. The engine is dead.
Half the country would struggle to move in with the other half. Both halves then cut down to their bones; such “unessentials” as the cable, movie, restaurant, and clothing industries would crater. This sends more people into unemployment.
I’m not an economist; I just read what they say. McClatchey is trustable.
The Raven
@MazeDaner: “What if he manages to introduce a jobs bill this fall?”
I don’t think you get it. What is he going to use for money to do that?
Mark S.
@Corner Stone:
Hey, CS, if you miss the joe from Lowell show, he’s whooping it up over at LGM.
Scott P.
It doesn’t have to get to the Supreme Court. There is a budget negotiation coming up in a month. The Tea Partiers will simply say that there will be no budget unless you, Obama, affirm the constitutionality of the debt ceiling.
Or, better yet, the Tea Partiers respond by zeroing out the budget for the Secret Service.
rikyrah
folks here and elsewhere need not live in the delusion that the GOP is nothing but a pack of sociopathic evil muthafuckas. I don’t pretend otherwise.
and, if you have 1/10th of a conscience, let alone take the responsibility of governing seriously- you are automatically at a disadvantage..
Brachiator
@gogol’s wife:
Yeah, I do, or a President Romney, who I also think would be a disaster.
But right now, with respect to tax and economic policy, we get everything that the Republicans want even when we don’t have Republicans in the White House.
And the only thing we get from the Democrats is a sorrowful wringing of their hands about how hard they tried and how much they hate seeing anyone suffer.
This is much like having somebody rob you blind, but who leaves you a note saying how sorry he is for doing so.
Evolved Deep Southerner
@Scott P.:
That’s what I’m saying. Don’t affirm a God damn thing. And when the Treasury keeps sending out SS checks and paying bills, budget or no budget, hell, take me to court. Suing the President in the highest court in the land because he’s taking care of the elderly, the infirm and legitimate debtors makes for one helluva campaign platform next year. “I know you’ll starve, but the country’s BROKE!” See how THAT shit plays in Peoria, and kiss a lot of formerly “Deep Red” states goodbye. If they go that route, Romney, Bachmann, Perry or whoever the fuck they nominate ought not even waste their money opening up a campaign office anywhere in Florida, for instance.
WereBear
And the Republicans would shoot everyone in the house and set it on fire.
AAA Bonds
Democrats can’t even pass their own right-wing elitist bill in the Senate ; _ ;
We’re so fucked
A Humble Lurker
@WereBear:
This. And the deals offered so far were rejected by the tea people because they didn’t go far enough for them, even though they were radical right wing blood-curdling crap monsters.
So I’m not ready to freak out just yet.
Also too, it might be important to note that any deal that raises the debt ceiling without their stupid amendment will be seen as a loss by the teabaggers. That doesn’t mitigate damage done by a crappy bill, but for those of you petty folks that only care about winning, snuggle that close to help you sleep at night.
AAA Bonds
I wonder if Ben Nelson will be one of those terrible names in history like Hoover or Quisling, or if we’ve gone ’round the bend as a country.
agrippa
La garde recule!
Nous sommes trahis!
Sauve qui peut!
Scott P.
If we’re getting everything that Republicans want, why aren’t there enough Republican votes to pass this thing?
So Obama declares himself dictator, and takes over responsibility for taxation, budgeting and spending from Congress. Finis rei publicae.
The Raven
@WereBear:
I think this differs from the results of this budget deal only in its speed, and perhaps not even that. Have you seen any analysis of the macroeconomic effects of these cuts?
A default would get the banksters to move heaven and earth to keep the money coming, and there might be a better deal.
On the other hand, Obama has already promised to pay the banksters first.
Um.
AAA Bonds
No matter how this goes down, the bill that’s passed will diminish middle-class spending power and harm the economy.
The debt ceiling bill, no matter what, will be a direct assault on the American and world economy by the U.S. Congress.
ppcli
Or at least Hoot and Smalley.
The Raven
@gogol’s wife: “You really don’t see the difference between President Obama and President Bachmann, do you?”
We don’t know the ultimate electoral outcome here. Keep in mind how bad the consequences of this deal are, directly, in the lives of the public.
AAA Bonds
Who was it on here who swore up and down in a reply to me that substantial cuts to Social Security and Medicare would not be part of any Democratic bill even though Obama had been pushing them since the 2008 campaign?
And I asked who else wanted to sign on to this claim and the crickets chirped, chirped, chirped into the night?
Because, you know.
MazeDancer
@The Raven:
Thanks. We’re twins actually. But one of us spells better than the other.
Appreciate the typo heads up. And the laugh on such an unfunny day. Wondered why comment went to moderation.
AAA Bonds
Watch municipal government. Muni bonds, sure, but keep an eye on local assets as well.
This is where the problems will start this time. And guess what? Most local papers in the United States have been gutted and sold off, so we will have trees falling where no one can hear.
ppcli
@agrippa:
Now we’re talking!
Écrasez l’infâme!
Liberté, egalité, fraternité!
Passe-moi le puck!
Dennis SGMM
@WereBear:
The only difference is how fast this will happen. If the economy crashes (again) it will happen quickly. If the Republicans get their way with this proposal then it will happen a bit more slowly with a nice committee to do the Republicans’ dirty work for them. This is the beginning, not the end. Once the R’s nail this baby then they’ll be back with another list of demands. Just get it over with, insulating the Republicans from the direct consequences of their actions by signing off on them is madness.
Libby
Context is everything. Sorely missing of course. Like this chart of the day on debt ceiling raises.
AAA Bonds
I’m weird and like the coin seigniorage option because it’s such a FUCK YOU
Legalize
The WH put out a statement that the deal is “significantly better” that what is being reported. So, who knows. They DO have to get Dem votes in the House.
Scott P.
I’ll sign onto it right now. There won’t be substantial cuts to Social Security and Medicare.
The Raven
BTW, I like economist Mark Thoma’s remarks on this disaster, post. He is one of the most even-tempered progressives, and he is politely boiling mad.
AAA Bonds
Maybe this is the perfect leftist plan?
1) Default declared
2) S&P and Moody’s downgrade U.S. credit
3) Government continues to pay investors while failing to deliver services
4) Americans burn down S&P and Moody’s offices
5) Americans burn down investment houses
6) Stalin
Corner Stone
@Mark S.: I do not.
gocart mozart
Good analysis of the 14th Am issue by a Yale Con Law Professor can be found here:
http://balkin.blogspot.com/2011/07/obama-is-already-invoking-14th.html
AAA Bonds
@Scott P.:
I take it you’re betting on no bill at all then?
Corner Stone
@AAA Bonds: You messed up and included the nebulous “substantial cuts”.
That’s the wriggle room all good and right thinking people here need to waffle for the rest of eternity.
AAA Bonds
Reid, Boehner, and Obama are all for substantial cuts in Medicare and Social Security and none of them are coy about it. Done deal unless that ends up in another bill down the road instead of this one.
suzanne
@Legalize: When did this happen? Politico and Political Wire have nothing new….
AAA Bonds
@Corner Stone:
All the current bills contain substantial cuts. Anyone who says otherwise invites substantial laughter.
Brachiator
@WereBear: The article you link to presents one bleak picture. There is good foundation for it. I presume that Republicsns can read as well as anyone else, or at least have a servant read it to them.
This suggests that the GOP might wise up and give the president a debt ceiling increase without anything else no spending cuts or other crap.
Otherwise, the Obama Administration keeps proving me right. Too much authority is given to Treasury and economic advisors who focus on financial markets and macroeconomic issues instead of tax policy, jobs and human beings.
And what you write about cable, movie, restaurant and other industries has already long been happening. People are talking more about cutting the cord, getting rid of cable and going for streaming video services. Increasingly, middle class people are being priced out of movie tickets.
The spending cuts and deeper cuts promised in this compromise plan will have the same impact of interest rate increases on many people. But the GOP doesn’t care, especially if public sector workers lose their jobs, since they are viewed as unessential anyway.
And the GOP will now go into the presidential campaign with the following lie: “we stopped the Democrats from raising everybody’s taxes, and we promise to make those tax cuts permanent if you give us the White House.” Meanwhile, the Democrats can brag about getting some spending cuts. Yeah, they may have saved the economy again, but that’s abstract to a lot of people, who will likely see it as bankers getting saved again.
And when the GOP drops their other shoe, tax plans with more goodies for the wealthy and big corporations, the Democrats are going to have to dredge up a new batch of excuses.
I honestly believe that Obama could have weathered a threat to shut down the economy, just as Clinton survived Newt’s attempt to shut down the federal government. I do not believe that the nation can prosper with the White House and the Congressional Democrats ceding tax policy to the GOP.
Dennis SGMM
“Well,” said the maniac with the straight razor,”I’m not gonna’ cut you substantially. I’m just gonna’ cut you a bit here, and a bit there, and here, and there and…”
AAA Bonds
First, Obama declares, over and over since 2008, that he’s in favor of cuts to Social Security. He creates a commission that’s a stealth Social Security reform body. Then, when he offers cuts to Social Security as part of a compromise package on this bill, supporters say that he’s just doing it as a negotiating position and somehow doesn’t really mean it.
Now Reid’s plan comes out and he assures everyone that the Democrats are just :(( about it but guess what? Cuts to Social Security.
We never really had anyone representing the Democratic platform in national leadership during this process. Too bad! Because austerity is going to fuck us sideways.
gocart mozart
An artificial solution to an artificial crisis. Also, poetic justice win. Credit Default Swaps, Bitches!
http://balkin.blogspot.com/2011/07/end-debt-crisis-now-with-credit-default.html
cleek
@AAA Bonds:
can you link to a direct quote from Obama where he says he is for “substantial cuts in Medicare and Social Security” ?
Legalize
@suzanne:
This is what I read. Also heard it mentioned by a talking-hairdo on MSNBC.
AAA Bonds
Surely even liberals can understand that what we are now seeing is the public subordination of national governments to global capital.
We’ve seen it for years in the developing world but now it’s working on us. Big investment houses and rating agencies tanked our economy, and now they determine our policy.
AAA Bonds
@cleek:
I’m busy searching for a direct quote where Eric Cantor says he “wants to create an economic crisis for political gain”.
AAA Bonds
This is more or less the internal political model of shock doctrine. Global financial players ensure that public debate within the country is limited to a set of options that work in the favor of finance and against the citizens – “austerity” to address “solvency”.
Then the citizens squabble with each other over how exactly they’re going to fuck themselves on CCTV for the bankers, what positions, what brand of lube, etc.
National interest is in revived middle-class spending power, in strong credit markets, and in government stimulus. All of these are off the table.
FlipYrWhig
Please, I’m begging everyone, please make a distinction between “cuts” and _benefit cuts_. Then keep on fighting from the perspective you find appropriate.
Mark S.
@AAA Bonds:
Nicely played.
FlipYrWhig
@AAA Bonds:
Given that Plouffe and Obama have both said recently that getting the fiscal house in order is a precondition for a progressive agenda, I’m hoping that whatever this deal ultimately is counts as the house-in-order part, and will be followed by a concerted effort to return to the progressive-agenda part.
Corner Stone
@AAA Bonds:
And all the nay-sayers who poo-pood this Catfood Commission get another round to yell at all of us that it “don’t mean nothin’!” Hell, it “didn’t even pass a full report!”
Yeah, well, hate to break it to you peeps but that was never the intention, and it’s not the intention now.
We’re seeing the perma-ability of the ideas behind creating the first commission show up all over this latest “deal”.
People against the first Catfood Commission always asked, “why are D supporters forced to waste our time and energy on this nebulous POS?”
“Oh! It’s all 11-D Chess you dumb bitchez! He’s Got This!”
Mark S.
Here we go:
Obama’s gonna veto that right before the fucking presidential election. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
Mark S.
@FlipYrWhig:
Flip, sometimes you’re just adorable.
The Raven
@AAA Bonds:
Trotsky?
General Stuck
@Mark S.:
How is at the end of 2012 before the election?
Corner Stone
@Mark S.:
Of course he is.
PeakVT
Raul Grijalva statement (via GOS).
Corner Stone
@General Stuck:
You’re kidding yourself if you think this won’t come to a vote before the 2012 election.
Mark S.
@General Stuck:
You think Boner’s not gonna pass a bill to extend them before the election?
Corner Stone
@PeakVT: Not worth the electrons it’s pixelated on.
General Stuck
@Corner Stone:
You are so fucking full of shit corner stone, I am just glad Texas is downwind. Stupid motherfucker.
robertdsc-PowerBook
How is the progressive agenda going to fare with concerted cuts cuts cuts? It’s a fucking guarantee that the super commission won’t report back anything that both houses can pass, so the trigger will take effect and institute the automatic across-the-board cuts.
So we get the first cuts of 1T, then the automatic cuts of 1.8T +. How can anyone make any progressive policy in that environment?
On top of that, Obama’s stupid myopia about continuing the Bush tax cuts for the “middle class” without paying for them will ensure we stay in deficit mode forever. Fucking ridiculous.
The Raven
Grijalva:
It’s easy, of course, to take a stand when you know your vote doesn’t count. Still, a Democratic leader did finally say it.
Bravo.
Of course, Grijalva voted for the Reid proposal yesterday.
General Stuck
@Mark S.:
Boner can pass whatever bill he wants. Dems hold the senate and they are not going to pass a bill that would before the election that would lose them the leverage they have from that issue.
Corner Stone
@General Stuck: Wow. I guess the frustration of being absolutely wrong about everything is finally starting to crack you up again.
Should I start the countdown clock for your next tap dance into blog oblivion?
General Stuck
@Corner Stone:
What was i wrong about? I said Obama wouldn’t fold on giving the GOP another debt ceiling vote before the election, and he didn’t from the reports we have. And that he wouldn’t fold on making benefit cuts to medicare or entitlements. You claimed he would fold on both of these things.
I approve of long term deficit reduction. Your ignorant half baked Obama hate wanking is no more than that. Wanking Hate
Corner Stone
@General Stuck:
Please find those quotes from me.
ETA, it doesn’t matter, don’t bother trying. You’ve done what you always do. Stake out a hard ass position then crawfish back and back and back to get to a spot where you can defend anything that happens next.
WereBear
I appreciate everyone engaging with me on economic impacts. Yes, the economy sucks right now. But it can get back on its feet.
I’m not trying to put frosting on a turd and declare it a birthday cake. I am saying default is worse than the 1929 crash, worse than the 70’s recession, worse than any alternatives you come up with; because it’s irreversible.
Maybe the born-agains have a plan to get someone’s virginity back; but this is the real world and fast is terrible. Slow has a chance of turning around. Fast; doesn’t. If we lose being the world currency, there isn’t even any point to learning Mandarin; we’ll be most useful fed to pigs.
And suppose we do “stand firm” and we default and that makes the Tea Partiers give up and agree with us? Whut? That will just make a bad situation worse, because they aren’t going to give up and tell us we were right, are they? They’ll just come up with idiotic things to do that will makes things worse, won’t they?
I’m sorry there isn’t a “win” in this scenario.
gogol's wife
@WereBear:
These people who think default — damaging the full faith and credit of the U.S. — is no big deal are making me crazy!
wrb
The McConnell proposal was the best of the bunch.
It put raising the cap into Obama’s hands, making stimulus possible.
If there is significant stimulus under this plan, the cap will need to be raised by congress before the election. The cap only lasts until the election if there isn’t new spending.
The only way I see that happening is if it is coupled to extending the Bush tax cuts. Then Republicans might go for it then. It is good that the tax cut issue wasn’t settled by this bill, because it is a very valuable bargaining chip.
Steeplejack
Changes coming to Social Security (via the Onion News Network).
Joseph Nobles
What will stop John Boehner from sending a bill to the Senate in October 2012 that makes the Bush tax cuts permanent?
Nothing.
The Senate will pass it. Democrats in elections far outnumber the Republicans, and their opponents will love to run ads about Democrats wanting to raise taxes on Americans. Hell, Karl Rove’s SuperPACs have the ads cut and ready to roll right now.
Obama will sign it. He’s in a tough election of his own against Romney/Bachmann 2012 and he’s getting hammered on the shitty economy and the 10.5% unemployment rate (the result of the debt ceiling budget cuts and the Extra Congress budget cuts).
So all Obama and the Democrats have to do is do nothing to let the Bush tax cuts expire? “Do Nothing” will be a major theme of the SuperPAC ads. Feh.
I will work for Obama’s reelection. I will donate. I will vote. I know what will happen in the Romney/Bachmann administration. I know how much worse it can get. This is not about EmoProg hysteria. This is not about firebagging to make Jane Hamsher money.
This is about reality. I need some good news. I need some good news right now.
Uncle Clarence Thomas
.
.
I don’t understand why they forced President Obama to destroy the New Deal so he could save it. He will reap all the political benefits, so why hand him such a historic legislative victory?
.
.
General Stuck
@Corner Stone:
You are a hoot, dude. Thoroughly full of shit, but a hoot. I wonder if you can remember one drunk day to the next. You have been screaming Obama selling out medicare and SS for a couple of years now, like the sun rising every day. A demented street corner preacher, except your religion is to hate Obama with the heat of a thousand suns.
I didn’t stake out a hard position on this situation, and I didn’t predict how it would turn out, other than Obama standing firm about any deal reaching past next election, so this won’t be coming up again. And not slashing medicare bennies.
Provider cuts are supported by people serious about bending down the cost curve from exploding cost of healthcare in this country, and our ability to pay for it with the boomers retiring. It is a real problem, along with all the other ones.
I am just grateful we might be spared the deep and certain national and world misery from a catastrophic debt default of the US of A. I would expect most sane people to think the same. It was a compromise in the end, and that is always fine by me from the few red lines I draw, and Obama did not cross those this time.
The Raven
@WereBear: I know the reasoning. Yet this austerity plan is also a path to default. A country in a deepening depression will have more trouble paying its debts, not less.
Chukwu
Things are shitty. Here’s a doggie.
suzanne
@PeakVT: If I lived two miles to the south, I’d have Raul as my rep, and not that douchecanoe Schweikert. I’m thinking about moving.
cleek
i love the idea that Obama is so eager to cut all these programs that he would drag this particular round of bullshit out for three fucking months, and spend an uncountable number of hours wrassling with Boener and Cantor, instead of just doing it. makes all kinds of sense. love it.
Yutsano
@cleek: It’s all teh kabuki man. All teh kabuki.
stinkdaddy
Juicebaggers: every time you throw “President Bachmann” in the face of someone criticizing Obama from the left, you make it just a little bit easier for him to keep moving to the right. It ought to say something about how thoroughly in the tank they know you guys are that they’re willing to say this openly.
Do as you’re told and fall in line — if not, you might get your right-wing austerity program from someone you feel less personally connected to!
WereBear
The [email protected]: I’m not happy. I never said I was happy. I wasn’t happy about TARP, but it was preferable to a Great Depression. I’m not happy the Republicans areblocking steps to relieve the Recession we’re in, the Recession, but a) we don’t have the votes or the choice, and b) default is far worse.
I repeat: this isn’t a choice between a shit sandwich and a shit sandwich with fries. This is any kind of sandwich vs having our digestive system yanked out with forks.
There’s a reason it was considered “inconcievable” until the Tea Party came along.
Corner Stone
@cleek: How is the contra any different than the avowed 11-D Chess positions we here so much about here?
Corner Stone
@stinkdaddy:
“Where the fuck else you gonna go?”
Dennis SGMM
@stinkdaddy:
I can’t wait for all of the folks who created the inspirational “Yes We Can” video back in ’08 to produce the “At Least He Ain’t Bachmann” video for ’12.
Felanius Kootea
@agrippa:
@ppcli:
LOL!
eemom
I don’t even know who to agree with or who to argue with anymore. This situation is just the most fucked up and depressing public event I have witnessed in my lifetime.
These are what I think:
1. This absolutely is a case where innocent people are being held hostage by suicide terrorists. In such a situation — the bravado of “we don’t negotiate with terrorists” aside — who among us WOULDN’T negotiate, if our family members were the hostages?
2. The hostage-releasing compromise is unacceptable from any other perspective than #1. Because how is it ever going to STOP now? Unlike real terrorists, there is no way to stop these maniacs from doing the same thing again and again and again. They are only going to have MORE leverage as we approach 2012, not less.
3. I think the constitutional option would have been better than this, if it has even a hope of succeeding — but I don’t know enough about it to know whether it does or not.
General Stuck
@stinkdaddy:
Dude, most of us have been saying what Mellman says since the beginning. Or, that Obama enjoys the overwhelming record levels of approval from dems, also since the beginning. And of those dems, self described liberal dems have given Obama a rock steady approval in the upper 80 to 90 percentlie approval, which is the tops compared with conservative and moderate dems.
Or, that a handful of mouthbreathing idiots, claiming to be from the left, don’t amount to much. Other than amusement, mocking the stupid and often untrue shit they spew. You folks couldn’t likely fill the bleachers at a country high school gymnasium. But you are fun to point and laugh at. And mock.
General Stuck
@eemom:
Well, eemom, they won’t get to use the doomsday debt ceiling device if the deal is what it is being reported as. But they will try other, less nihilistic stunts to get their way, but the stakes of playing more chicken with them like this, will be considerably less dangerous.
But I wonder, after watching the last Boehner Mcconnell presser, if they would be eager to revisit the spot they were in concerning the debt ceiling. They seemed pretty anxious to settle the matter.
And for the folks claiming the wingers got everything they asked for, was not paying attention the past few months, where it was deep and foundational cuts to medicare, or no raising the debt ceiling. Or, in lieu of that, Obama surrendering the Mandate from the ACA, to make them stand down. They got none of those things in the end.
Sly
@WereBear:
Reserve currency status of the dollar is mostly immaterial to the discussion because its relational; it depends on what the competitors are. The dollar comprises 60% of the world’s official foreign exchange reserves. It’s closest competitor, at 25%, is the euro. Any collapse of the U.S. Treasury market is going to take European bond markets with it, so its not like the Eurozone is in any position to benefit. In fact, I suspect they’d be in as bad or worse shape than the U.S..
That leaves… nobody.
And before someone evokes the perennial (and cliched) boogeyman of China, the renmimbi can’t be used as a reserve currency for the simple reason that foreign reserve banks are not going to use a currency with tight conversion controls. China needs those controls to devalue the renminbi and drive export growth; their entire strategy for economic growth has been wrapped up in both devaluation and billions of dollars in interest that the U.S. pays them every few months. A reserve bank isn’t going to start using a currency that a foreign government can devalue on a whim.
Not to mention the fact that China owns a trillion dollars in U.S. Treasuries. That would likely put them in a worse spot than the Europeans if U.S. debt securities are downgraded.
I’d maintain that, if there were a Treasury default (I don’t think there will be… worse case scenario is that Geithner prioritizes payments to bond holders until the debt ceiling is reached, whether that be in two days or six months), the U.S. Federal government would be negatively impacted the least. Oh, it would still be horrendous, alone producing the biggest quarter-to-quarter drop in GDP since the mid-forties. But it would be a picnic compared to what it did to municipal governments, state governments, and foreign markets, all of which need the Full Faith and Credit of the United States Government to operate.
4jkb4ia
Bad Westbrook has appeared, and it’s 4-0 Cubs. At the end of this inning I am going to get the pizza.
4jkb4ia
Also, too. Absolutely.