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You are here: Home / Maybe you were kidnapped, tied up, taken away, and held for ransom

Maybe you were kidnapped, tied up, taken away, and held for ransom

by DougJ|  August 2, 201110:04 am| 94 Comments

This post is in: Fucked-up-edness, General Stupidity

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On nearly all political issues that come up, when I scan the comments here and read some of the other internets, I can find a position or strategy that I agree with.

Not so with the current Republican hostage situation. Debt ceiling passage or not, a hostage situation will continue in some form or another. I agree with the blanket statement “this will have to be solved by the voters”, but I don’t see how, politically, that will be possible in the short-to-medium term. This time it was a House majority using extortion to advance a teahadist agenda, but next time it could be a Senate minority, via the filibuster.

Here is the one thing I can think of: in most political situations, there is some heavy-handed thing that can be done to get around Congressional obstructionism. Obama could have used the 14th Amendment (I don’t know that that would have been legal, but when did that ever stop a president). Reid could have tried to abolish the filibuster in the last Senate.

Voters don’t care about process. Maybe it’s time for Democrats to use procedural tools more aggressively.

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Reader Interactions

94Comments

  1. 1.

    Raven (formerly stuckinred)

    August 2, 2011 at 10:08 am

    You do a great job with the lyrics Dawg.

  2. 2.

    Captain Haddock

    August 2, 2011 at 10:10 am

    Yeah, and maybe its time for the Washington Generals to play some defense.

  3. 3.

    Davis X. Machina

    August 2, 2011 at 10:12 am

    (I don’t know that that would have been legal, but when did that ever stop a president)

    Salus populi suprema lex is the door that A Man on Horseback traditionally uses.

    Everyone thought Article 48 was a wonderful idea, too.

  4. 4.

    Omnes Omnibus

    August 2, 2011 at 10:13 am

    The best procedural tools are available in the Senate; unfortunately, too many Senate Democrats are, in and of themselves, procedural tools.

  5. 5.

    Samara Morgan

    August 2, 2011 at 10:13 am

    you know DougJ, i usta think you were “bright”.
    i am no longer confident of that.
    Douchehat and the more intelligent “conservatives” already smell a trap, but its too late.
    The deal came so late to the table that they cant demagogue it.
    Obama just transformed defense cuts into revenues.
    Its magik.

    The use of broad defense cuts as part of the “trigger” mechanism that would automatically slash spending if the latest deficit commission’s recommendations can’t pass Congress. (See Rich Lowry, Bill Kristol, Yuval Levin, and others for expressions of concern and/or outright alarm.) In effect, defense cuts assumed the role that liberals wanted revenue increases to play in these negotiations

    yes, Douthat and Dr K and Yuval Levin scent the trap NAOW, but its too late.
    meep meep

    i think Obama is a memetic mosaic of Lincoln and Machiavelli

    It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver.
    Niccolo Machiavelli

  6. 6.

    Villago Delenda Est

    August 2, 2011 at 10:15 am

    Most voters don’t care about process.

    That’s because most people only care about results.

    Because they can’t be bothered to understand ANY process, at all. They think that their car goes because they turn the key and press the accelerator. It’s an appliance to them…the inner workings do not intrigue most of them, at all.

    They want the finished package, and they are not to particular about what went in to producing it for them.

  7. 7.

    Mattminus

    August 2, 2011 at 10:16 am

    The hostage situation will be resolved the second that it’s the democrats that are holding the hostage.

  8. 8.

    kindness

    August 2, 2011 at 10:16 am

    Wow, 7 posts and no circular firing squad yet….

  9. 9.

    General Stuck

    August 2, 2011 at 10:16 am

    I say we break out the bongos, and go beatnik on their perfumed asses.

  10. 10.

    Taobhan

    August 2, 2011 at 10:17 am

    Democrats use procedural tools more aggressively? Ha, not in their DNA. There was a time when it was but those days are long gone.

  11. 11.

    Loviatar

    August 2, 2011 at 10:17 am

    But, he can’t, because Obama has to be the adult in the room.

    Also, it wouldn’t allow him to get in any hippie punches

  12. 12.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    August 2, 2011 at 10:18 am

    Reid could have tried to abolish the filibuster in the last Senate.

    Reid.. where have I heard that name?

    Ah yes, he was the one that came up with the 2.7 trillion cuts only “compromise”.

    At some point, you have to stop imagining they share the same goals as you. Then it starts to make more sense and you have more options available to you.

  13. 13.

    meh

    August 2, 2011 at 10:18 am

    sadly you mistake Democrats with someone that has a big hairy pair of balls. You are incorrect, Sir. The moment they did that the village would come down on them like a ton of bricks for running roughshod over democracy. They’re a bunch of pussies. Get used to eating half a shit sandwich every time.

  14. 14.

    Comrade Rich

    August 2, 2011 at 10:19 am

    If I can catch the song lyrics without peeking in the comments first, it’s a pretty obvious reference. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t awesome. That’s a great song to have in my head all day, DougJ!

  15. 15.

    Jewish Steel

    August 2, 2011 at 10:19 am

    Voters don’t care about process.

    I don’t think voters like to think that elected officials are breaking the law, even if those elected officials are just bending it aggressively. Bush drained away every last ounce of support above the crazification factor on the back of Abu Graib and Guantanmo (I’d like to believe this, at least).

    That coupled with the fact that Washington is full of old, white lawyers, who are predisposed to value procedure makes your idea a difficult one.

  16. 16.

    Omnes Omnibus

    August 2, 2011 at 10:20 am

    @kindness: The thread had to go to 11 for that little push over the cliff.

  17. 17.

    Paul in KY

    August 2, 2011 at 10:20 am

    @Villago Delenda Est: @Samara Morgan: I hope you’re right!

    Edit: I was trying to comment on Samara’s post. I don’t know how VDE got in there.

  18. 18.

    Villago Delenda Est

    August 2, 2011 at 10:20 am

    You know, I recognize the lyric, but for the life of me, I can’t place it right now.

    Brain needs coffee or something.

  19. 19.

    mk3872

    August 2, 2011 at 10:21 am

    Reid could have tried to abolish the filibuster in the last Senate

    Oh no, please, not more of this insanity about the “LAST SENATE”!

    Puhleeze …

    The Dems had 60 votes for about 3 weeks and then were chopped down to 58.

    And several of those were conservative divas like Lieberman, Nelson, Lincoln, etc …

    If you think that they would have voted to do away with filibusters then you are truly off your rocker!

  20. 20.

    Hunter Gathers

    August 2, 2011 at 10:22 am

    Obama uses the 14th, the Supreme Court tells him to go fuck himself.
    Ried blows up the filibuster, the next GOPer POTUS completely guts Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and gives the upper 2% a zero tax rate.
    The public voted for this shit at the ballot box and with their apathy.
    The TeaHadists will continue to exert their influence until they are defeated at the polls, as long as our white majority continues their complete and total freakout over the the indignity of having a black POTUS.
    White people have completely lost their collective shit, and this TeaBagger insanity is the direct result.

    On the bright side, it is August, and soon a Great White shark will take a young blonde-haired white girl hostage and give us the distraction we need.

  21. 21.

    eemom

    August 2, 2011 at 10:22 am

    some heavy-handed thing

    I like this.

    I hate everything else.

    DougJ, remember that “shrill” CA Congressman I was raving about last week? He voted FOR that sack of shit yesterday.

    I hate them all.

    ETA: I also like Tom Petty.

  22. 22.

    Comrade Javamanphil

    August 2, 2011 at 10:22 am

    Voters don’t care about anything political in the August of a non-Election year. This will all be forgotten by next year. Let’s go have a beer.

  23. 23.

    ppcli

    August 2, 2011 at 10:23 am

    @Villago Delenda Est: I had to repeat it about a dozen times in my head before it hit me: “…Ok, Ok, I know that one… Hey, that’s Tom Petty’s voice!”

  24. 24.

    PanAmerican

    August 2, 2011 at 10:23 am

    “Invoking the 14th Amendment” is when you jerk off so much your dick gets red and sore.

  25. 25.

    Jewish Steel

    August 2, 2011 at 10:23 am

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    procedural tools.

    Put much more succinctly.

    FYWP. No edit, huh?

  26. 26.

    Raven (formerly stuckinred)

    August 2, 2011 at 10:24 am

    @Villago Delenda Est: You don’t have to live like a. . .

  27. 27.

    NonyNony

    August 2, 2011 at 10:24 am

    @Samara Morgan:

    Obama just transformed defense cuts into revenues.
    Its magik.

    I don’t know that it was actually Obama. It seems like the Republicans backed themselves into a corner.

    The Republican position has basically become:

    1. We cannot run a deficit
    2. We cannot raise taxes
    3. Republicans will not go on the record as being willing to cut Medicare unless the Democrats take the lead
    4. We must make cuts in non-discretionary domestic spending

    Unfortunately 1 and 2 cannot be resolved by 4 alone – you can cut all the non-discretionary domestic spending that you want and you STILL won’t get rid of the deficit the way things are currently structured.

    So either one of these things has to give OR you have to look at Defense spending. It’s fine to demagogue on these things, but when the rubber meets the road the truth is that for all their talk of “waste” the government was cut to the bone during the Clinton administration and the waste that Reagan demagogued back in the day just isn’t there anymore (if it ever really was).

    When they’re forced into making a proposal that really and truly reduces the deficit their only choices are raising taxes, committing political suicide by taking the lead on steep Medicare cuts, or cutting into Defense spending. The savings aren’t going to come from any other pile of money – those are the only piles we got.

    They did this to themselves – Obama and Reid and Pelosi just kind of got out of their way and let their rambling and arguing lead them right to a giant wedge issue. And it IS a wedge issue – their corporate masters are NOT going to be happy when the fat government contracts start getting cut because the teabaggers are mad about deficits.

    Note too though that the “Defense” side isn’t exclusively Defense – it’s also Homeland Security. Which sucks, because I foresee that Republicans will happily tank things that are actually being done to make us safer (like assistance for first responders of all stripes) in exchange for keeping the Pentagon procurement office happy.

    But but then a lot of “non-discretionary domestic spending” is made up of a lot of things Republican donors actually like too – like farm subsidies and road construction grants. When it comes time to make the cuts there are going to be even more wedges driven into the Republican coalition. So this whole deal is looking more and more like a “be careful what you wish for” package to the Teabaggers in the House the more I read about it.

  28. 28.

    Steve

    August 2, 2011 at 10:25 am

    Democrats don’t seem to grasp that voters don’t care about process. The right wing gins up a controversy about a normal, unremarkable procedural device like “deem and pass,” and suddenly Democrats are buried under a swarm of questions from the media and end up surrendering. If Democrats don’t even have the fortitude to use standard procedures, what makes anyone think they will be bold enough to do something extraordinary like eliminating the filibuster?

  29. 29.

    ChristianPinko

    August 2, 2011 at 10:25 am

    Maybe it’s time for Democrats to use procedural tools more aggressively.

    Ya THINK??!??

    Seriously, this deal is incredibly dispiriting. It can be said now — not as snark but as a sober statement of fact — that the only difference between the Democratic and Republican parties is that the former take a little longer to give conservatives everything they want.

    I starting to think that going forward, liberals need to de-emphasize involvement in national politics and concentrate on local-level community organizing. More than anything else, low-income Americans, and others who are left out of the new free-market utopia were are constructing in the U.S., need to start thinking of themselves as a community with shared interests: interests that are in opposition to those of the American mainstream.

  30. 30.

    jrg

    August 2, 2011 at 10:27 am

    this will have to be solved by the voters

    That’s unlikely. Look at the tea partiers on Medicare. Look at all the red states that take more from the feds than they give.

    Until these idiots feel the pain that comes with realizing that leprechauns don’t pay for Medicare, farm subsidies, and programs designed to help rural America, the problem is only going to get worse. We really, really need to start turning the screws on these people.

  31. 31.

    Jamie

    August 2, 2011 at 10:27 am

    well, the Tea party is playing for keeps and got most of what it wanted. Great!

  32. 32.

    eemom

    August 2, 2011 at 10:28 am

    Let’s go have a beer.

    Let’s roll another joint.

  33. 33.

    Villago Delenda Est

    August 2, 2011 at 10:29 am

    @Jewish Steel:

    That coupled with the fact that Washington is full of old, white lawyers, who are predisposed to value procedure makes your idea a difficult one.

    You know, this is a good example of the perfect being the enemy of the good. I care about the process, it needs to be moral and just, the problem is that if you get bogged down in it, you wind up not delivering a product.

    Yet, even though Bush did drain down support to the crazification factor, he’s still at large. No threat at all of being brought forward to answer for his crimes, and make no mistake, he and his vile undead vice president are war criminals. Not only for the results they produced in the form of the deaths and maiming of hundreds of thousands, and in turning millions of those they did not kill into refugees, but the predicate criminal act was the same one that the leadership of Japan and Germany committed in the 30’s. The basis for all the criminality that followed.

  34. 34.

    BettyPageisaBlonde

    August 2, 2011 at 10:30 am

    @villago

    Tom Petty, Refugee

  35. 35.

    Jamie

    August 2, 2011 at 10:30 am

    Can we get someone to help Obama with negotiating. He’s way too nice to be unchaperoned in this game.

  36. 36.

    Villago Delenda Est

    August 2, 2011 at 10:31 am

    @jrg:

    Until these idiots feel the pain that comes with realizing that leprechauns don’t pay for Medicare, farm subsidies, and programs designed to help rural America, the problem is only going to get worse. We really, really need to start turning the screws on these people.

    Please. These people think that their food comes from a grocery store. They have no idea where it comes from before that. Soylent Green wasn’t revealed to be people until the final scene…because no one cared.

  37. 37.

    aimai

    August 2, 2011 at 10:32 am

    I’m all for Democrats using both procedural tools and a take no prisoners attitude but lets remember the last time they did–remember “Deem and Pass?”–Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats were pilloried, 24/7, by the right wing noise machine. You still see, when its opportune, that thee attacks on the Democrats left their mark, like a high tide watermark, on right wing discourse and the voters (temporary) imagination.

    Look at the phrase “do things at night” or “undercover of darkness.” The worst piece of legislation in the last ten years was the Medicare part B vote: late night, held open for hours, open bribery and armtwisting on the House floor, all for the benefit of a corrupt bill by the Republicans. But just yesterday I saw some reference to it by a right winger attributing it to THE DEMOCRATS.

    Until the Democrats get more sophisticated, and more ruthless, about their approach to politics they will fail to use the tools they have for fear that their actions will be misinterpreted by the voting population. You have to either have a plan in place to deal with popular perception (rather than waiting and hoping that the voters come around).

    At any rate if you just look at the recent debt ceiling thing if the Democrats had the money the Republicans have they could have flooded Republican districts with advertisements explaining that Republicans were refusing to pay the debts they themselves had run up the moment Boehner proposed to hold the ceiling hostage. They didn’t do that because they thought it would be cheaper to compromise, or there’s some kind of a gentleman’s agreement not to attack the Republicans in their home districgts in between campaigns.

    aimai

  38. 38.

    LarsThorwald

    August 2, 2011 at 10:32 am

    I have yet to read a persuasive analysis that the 14th Amendment was a viable option, but nevertheless, I am skeptical of a President doing something like that to run roughshod over the will of Congress, no matter how shitty Congress may be from my ideological perspective. If the shoe were on the other foot and Bush had tried something like this, we’d be screaming bloody mureder — oh, wait, we did with signing statements. But when the levers of power switch, suddenly everyone wants to be more like Bush.

    Fuck that noise. I didn’t vote for that, I voted against it.

    It’s not okay if you are a Democrat anymore than it’s okay if you are a Republican.

    You want a Congress that’s responsive, then get out there and work for the Congress you want. If I had a nickel for every keyboard warrior who bemoans Our Sellout President/Senate Leaders/Blue Dogs, but who didn’t knock on a door or phone a registered voter at their local Democratic or Green Party headquarters, I’d be a very, very rich man.

    So fuck everyone’s whining. We lost hard in 2010. We took a shot to the nuts, and now it hurts.

    You can either piss and moan you let the Devil in your home, or you can take that and go do something.

  39. 39.

    Ash Can

    August 2, 2011 at 10:33 am

    @Jamie: So why is the Tea Party so unhappy about this deal?

  40. 40.

    David Fud

    August 2, 2011 at 10:33 am

    It might just be eleventy-dimension chess, but if the outcome is massive military spending cuts, then I will be satisfied. Out of Iraq by Tea Party hostage taking? I’ll bite. Out of Afghanistan because no reasonable deal could make it through the “Supercommittee”? Score another one for curtailing the wars.

    One way or another, these are going to end. Better to have their side force the issue and own it, rather than always being able to run the next election against brown people and muslims. Slash the budget deficit and the remnants of the worst extremes of the Lesser Bush administration simultaneously? Slam dunk, even if not explicitly the goal or intention of Obama.

  41. 41.

    burnspbesq

    August 2, 2011 at 10:33 am

    @Raven (formerly stuckinred):

    Thank you. Knew it was Tom Petty, but couldn’t remember the exact song.

    Credit to Doug for branching out. John Hiatt yesterday, Tom Petty today. Wonder who’s next.

  42. 42.

    jrg

    August 2, 2011 at 10:35 am

    Yet, even though Bush did drain down support to the crazification factor, he’s still at large. No threat at all of being brought forward to answer for his crimes, and make no mistake, he and his vile undead vice president are war criminals.

    That’s what gets me the most about this. Look at how much of the deficit is due to Dick and Dubya’s excellent adventure, then consider the fact that Obama won’t prosecute, because he wants to be non-partisan and move the country forward… Then consider the fact that the press is addicted to the “both sides do it” line of bullshit.

    If anything, too much knee-jerk “centrism” is hurting this country. It’s going to hurt us (and our finances) badly in the long run if we can’t disincentivize lying us into a war, because the alternative is to not appear centrist enough.

  43. 43.

    Omnes Omnibus

    August 2, 2011 at 10:35 am

    @LarsThorwald: LarsThorwald Johnson is right.

  44. 44.

    Marmot

    August 2, 2011 at 10:36 am

    Voters don’t care about process. Maybe it’s time for Democrats to use procedural tools more aggressively.

    Totally. Question 5 in today’s CNN poll (at The Hill, sorry) on the debt ceiling:

    As you may know, the agreement would raise the debt ceiling through the year 2013. Regardless of
    how you feel about the overall agreement, do you approve or disapprove of raising the debt ceiling
    at this time?
    Aug. 1
    2011
    Approve 48%
    Disapprove 51%
    No opinion 2%

    They’ve got no idea what’s going on.

  45. 45.

    Jewish Steel

    August 2, 2011 at 10:39 am

    @Villago Delenda Est: Oh, don’t get me wrong. I’m all for it. White though I may be, IANAL and I find rule and procedure worship quaint.

    But when I think of my lawyer and lawyerly friends who visibly squirm at the very thought of a well-trodden path not being followed, of the standard order of operations not followed, or protocol done away with, I think the problem is more one of psychological entrenchment. Certain types will not abandon their comfort zone to win a political pie fight*. Are those types over-represented in Washington? I suspect they are.

    *No matter how just the cause.

  46. 46.

    ppcli

    August 2, 2011 at 10:40 am

    @Steve:

    The right wing gins up a controversy about a normal, unremarkable procedural device like “deem and pass,” and suddenly Democrats are buried under a swarm of questions from the media and end up surrendering.

    Especially when the people doing the howling were using exactly the same procedures when they wanted them. Witness: Bush’s tax cuts passed by a procedure that every republican and Fox news marionette says is tyranny when the Democratic party uses it. The filibuster is an antidemocratic outrage when the Republicans hold the Senate becomes such a standard practice when the Democrats hold the chamber that 60 votes becomes the working definition of “majority”.(Remember the obsessive repetition of “up or down vote!” anyone? Republicans getting nearly everything they want by threatening the “nuclear option”? Ah, where did those carefree times go?)

    That is one of the biggest failures of the media stenographers. That someone could denounce a procedural stance on TV as a matter of democratic principle without being immediately asked “But then why did you do *exactly the same thing* on the following occasions?” every single time the denunciation is repeated. And pressed on it – if a prepared fog/misdirection answer is given, keep pressing.

    Yes, I know. Call me a starry-eyed dreamer.

  47. 47.

    Davis X. Machina

    August 2, 2011 at 10:41 am

    @aimai:

    there’s some kind of a gentleman’s agreement not to attack the Republicans in their home districgts in between campaigns.

    You don’t even face a Democrat if you lose your primary.

    I know the tea-party primary threat is largely a chimera, and you know the tea-party primary threat is largely a chimera, but like ranchers who shoot a coyote and leave the corpse where the others can smell it, there’s the corpse of Bob Bennett’s 20-year career hanging there on the barbed wire…

    Politics is a business that selects for the risk-adverse.
    As Jewish Steel points out, so is the law.

    And most politicians are still lawyers.

  48. 48.

    Jamie

    August 2, 2011 at 10:42 am

    Ashcan. They want to play the holding the economy hostage card in the future. If they say they are happy with this deal it makes the future extortion attempts harder to sell.

  49. 49.

    Master of Karate and Friendship

    August 2, 2011 at 10:44 am

    Obama could have used the 14th Amendment (I don’t know that that would have been legal, but when did that ever stop a president).

    Hmm, is following the US Constitution legal? Opinions differ. Who can say? We’ll never know.

    Sheeeeesh. The US Constitution IS the law! How is following what it says even possibly illegal?!?!?

  50. 50.

    geg6

    August 2, 2011 at 10:47 am

    Love me some Tom Petty.

    I hate this deal, but I would have hated not having a deal of some sort, so I guess I have to just deal with it.

    That said, seeing Gabby Giffords there, chatting and waving and looking absolutely alive and sentient and beautiful was a sight for some very sore eyes.

  51. 51.

    ppcli

    August 2, 2011 at 10:49 am

    @aimai:

    Look at the phrase “do things at night” or “undercover of darkness.” The worst piece of legislation in the last ten years was the Medicare part B vote: late night, held open for hours, open bribery and armtwisting on the House floor, all for the benefit of a corrupt bill by the Republicans. But just yesterday I saw some reference to it by a right winger attributing it to THE DEMOCRATS.

    Yeah, that was the ubiquitous Ms. McCardle. Even against the background of her shameless incompetence, that was a jaw-dropper. On a par with Perino/Guliani/Bolling’s “There were no terrorist attacks on Bush’s watch” for sheer history-rewriting.

  52. 52.

    Jennifer

    August 2, 2011 at 10:49 am

    Voters don’t care about process. Maybe it’s time for Democrats to use procedural tools more aggressively.

    And you know what? Voters won’t ever have to worry about process if they can count on the Democrats to always be the adults and clean up the messes.

    This shit has been going on for 30 years now. Reagan and Bush the first pile up massive debts, Clinton gets elected, behaves like the adult and passes modest tax increases to clean up the mess – without a single Republican vote. He goes on to an 8 year witch hunt and eventual impeachment for a blowjob.

    Then, on the basis of the blowjob, Republicans run an inept candidate and make veiled threats throughout the campaign, cloaked as pledges: “We’re tired of all the acrimony in Washtington,” (even though they were the ones responsible for it), “just give us what we want and we’ll play nice.” They go on to blatantly steal the election and then rule as if they are dictators, and again create a huge stinking mess. So the public again turns to a Democrat to clean it up. Republicans revert to type and throw up every possible roadblock to cleaning up the pile of shit they left behind.

    Maybe it’s time for the Democrats to stop always being the sure thing. It’s not as if they get any thanks for it, from the stupid or crazy people who elect the nutters or from the media. Maybe they should just inform the public, “look, if you elect these crazy people and give them a majority, don’t expect us to save you from them. If you can’t be bothered to use your brain or to get off the couch and vote, this time, we’re going to let you live with the consequences.”

    I really think that would have been Obama’s best move in this situation – just to inform the public that their employees were threatening to destroy the nation’s financial reputation, that the people the public elected were shirking their duties, and that he, the president, wasn’t going to do their job for them – so if they wanted to avoid bad consequences x,y, and z, they needed to let those employees know that if they didn’t get the job done there would be hell to pay and they sure as hell wouldn’t be going back to Washington. A similar message should have been delivered to the GOP’s financiers at the US Chamber and on Wall Street. “These guys are your mad dogs; it’s up to you to bring them to heel.”

    Because as long as they can count on a beaten-down beleaguered Democrat to keep the crazies from driving over the cliff, they’re never going to take any responsibility for them. And it’s fucking high time they did. The financiers would think twice about funding them, the media would think twice about fluffing them, and the public would think twice about electing them if they knew that no one was going to protect them from their lunacy. AFAIC, the president just missed a golden opportunity to turn the GOP’s name to mud for the next generation or more.

  53. 53.

    Villago Delenda Est

    August 2, 2011 at 10:50 am

    @Master of Karate and Friendship:

    Hmm, is following the US Constitution legal? Opinions differ. Who can say? We’ll never know.
    __
    Sheeeeesh. The US Constitution IS the law! How is following what it says even possibly illegal??

    Oh, I don’t know. Some polysci undergrads circulated a copy of the Bill of Rights as a petition in the local town’s center back in the 60’s, and were vilified for circulating a “Communist” petition.

  54. 54.

    Omnes Omnibus

    August 2, 2011 at 10:56 am

    @Master of Karate and Friendship: You aren’t even trying. Saying “using the 14th Amendment” is a shorthand for citing a particular interpretation of a clause in the Amendment to justify a course of action. There is a legal argument that can be made for it. There are also strong legal arguments against it. Try not to be a complete douchebag.

  55. 55.

    Scott P.

    August 2, 2011 at 10:57 am

    They’ve got no idea what’s going on.

    Right, and we know what’s going on, so we should run things for them. It’ll be in their best interests. And if they don’t like it, we’ll just have to re-educate them.

    What could possibly go wrong?

  56. 56.

    Davis X. Machina

    August 2, 2011 at 10:59 am

    AFAIC, the president just missed a golden opportunity to turn the GOP’s name to mud for the next generation or more.

    When it happens, it lasts 4-5 years. Nixon resigned in August of ’74. The ’76 presidential election was already a squeaker, and Reagan won huge four years later. The House over that span went from D 291 to D 243, still a majority, but a Dixiecrat-larded one.

    When your political party is grounded in an appeal to the worst in people, you begin every election cycle half-a-lap ahead of the field.

  57. 57.

    artem1s

    August 2, 2011 at 10:59 am

    @Samara Morgan:

    yes, Douthat and Dr K and Yuval Levin scent the trap NAOW, but its too late.

    I assumed from the outset that the ‘triggers’ on defense were specifically set in place to give cover to those who know that part of the budget is far more of a problem than so called ‘entitlements’. It was brokered to allow ‘reasonable’ members of Congress to cut defense without a yea or nay attached to their names.

    Defense is as much a third rail issue as SS. So much so that there is hardly ever a sustained debate on how to correct the military industrial complex and the rise of the mercenary corporations.

  58. 58.

    Suffern ACE

    August 2, 2011 at 11:01 am

    @Marmot: I like the AP story that was posted up on Yahoo yesterday. Headline was that “Responses to Debt Deal range from Angry to Angrier”. Then after the two Angry and Angrier people are interviewed, the responses of the rest of the dozen or so people on the street that are interviewed actually range from befuddled to confused.

  59. 59.

    wrb

    August 2, 2011 at 11:05 am

    Obama could have used the 14th Amendment (I don’t know that that would have been legal, but when did that ever stop a president).

    The fatal flaw here is that there is no evidence that the 14th amendment approach would have worked, because what people are calling invoking the 14th is in fact going entirely beyond what the 14th says on its face. It does not say that wages and materials must be paid, only debts and pensions. Big chunks of the budget are’t covered.
    So the president prints a bunch of bonds, the funds’ lawyers tell them that they are of dubious legality, no one buys them and the president and the country look ridiculous.

    It was a potentially disastrous gambit.

    Sure, be aggressive, but only if it will work. Don’t play the fool.

  60. 60.

    slag

    August 2, 2011 at 11:13 am

    Let’s face it, this deal was just more Affirmative Action for bitter old white men. Soft bigotry of low expectations, etc, etc. And it was done in a way that treated the rest of us like we’re the idiots. Which would be fine, I guess, because maybe we are idiots–except for the fact that, if bitter old white men are getting much better treatment than they deserve from this Administration, why aren’t we? What is compromise without justice? And how is it distinguished from cowardice, exactly?

    Beyond which, what’s the big economic picture here? What are our goals? I see improvements in regulations like increased CAFE standards and think I’m getting a glimpse. But I honestly, seriously, truly do not see how we trudge our way to economic sustainability without massive infrastructure investment. Is there a way? How are we “winning the future” from where we are now? I just don’t get it.

    It’s getting pretty hard to avoid the feeling that 36 different kinds of Cheese Whiz really is the very best we can hope for from future America. USA!

  61. 61.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    August 2, 2011 at 11:13 am

    but I don’t see how, politically, that will be possible in the short-to-medium term.

    Short answer: It can’t.
    Longer answer: In the United States, we have elections scheduled every two years for the House and Senate, and every four for the president. This stability used to be a feature, until this year, when terrorists took over the House. Unless we change the rules on how elections occur, this is how it works. And I’m sorry, but these people have to be dealt with. The only way this will stop is if enough House Republicans start ignoring the tea party and negotiating with Democrats. And because this is the best way forward, it’s in the Democrats’ interest to give concessions to these less extreme – yet more corporate – Republicans.

    ETA: So, yes, even getting out of this is out of the Democrats’ hands, except very marginally.

  62. 62.

    chopper

    August 2, 2011 at 11:14 am

    @Master of Karate and Friendship:

    well, the constitution may be the law, which means so’s that bit what says that congress has the sole right to authorize the issuance of debt. the 14th amendment is broad and was written before the debt ceiling was even a twinkle in congress’s eye, and was written to deal with an entirely different set of circumstances. any federal court worth their salt is going to put congress’s enumerated powers and the debt ceiling law above the 14th amendment. count on it.

  63. 63.

    Anya

    August 2, 2011 at 11:22 am

    Via a commenter at Booman Tribune, this is FDR explaining his compromise about outlawing Lynching to get the support of Dixicrats for his legislations:

    “I did not choose the tools with which I must work,” he explained. “Had I been permitted to choose them I would have selected quite different ones? But I’ve got to get legislation passed by Congress to save America. The Southerners… occupy strategic places on most of the Senate and House committees. If I come out for the anti-lynching bill now, they will block every bill I ask Congress to pass to keep America from collapsing. I just can’t take that risk.”

    Guess what, leaders make compromises all the time. You play the hand you’re dealt, and you play it to the best of your ability. That’s what President Obama did. I am not saying he did not make mistakes, but generally, he did not have many palatable options to choose from.

    He could have been as reckless as the Republicans, but that’s not who he is, and it’s not what the country needs. Some of you are angry because he did not plunge the country into a constitutional crises by invoking the 14th. But that was not an option, specially when you consider the make up of the current Supreme Court.

    If you want a political outcome favorable to you, then work very hard to elect liberal legislators. If, however, you’re of the opinion that there’s no difference between a Dem run congress and one full of wingnuts, then kindly, STFU.

  64. 64.

    Samara Morgan

    August 2, 2011 at 11:22 am

    @artem1s: also consider that this is the only deal that could be brokered.
    the Art of the Possible.
    it was genius that Obama transformed defense cuts into revenues.
    and it hit so late that only now are Douthat and Dr. K beginning to feel the burn.

    No enterprise is more likely to succeed than one concealed from the enemy until it is ripe for execution.
    Niccolo Machiavelli

    and Gabby Giffords was a master stroke. beautifully played.
    I do not understand Everything Obama.
    but he is pure-D consistant on trying to get Congress to do its job.

  65. 65.

    Keith G

    August 2, 2011 at 11:33 am

    Obama just transformed defense cuts into revenues.
    Its magik.

    I hope you are kidding, because this is just so moronic.

    If the triggers kick in everyone who depends on support loses. Everyone. Some more than others, but everyone loses. That ain’t magik or magic

    I do not know what is going to happen, but I do think historians are going to ponder on how a guy generally though of as a gifted politician and the best orator of his day could not reach an outcome that was supported by over 60% of the American public.

  66. 66.

    mrami

    August 2, 2011 at 11:40 am

    I agree with the blanket statement “this will have to be solved by the voters”

    As long as the messaging is coherent and on point, the voters won’t solve it because they won’t understand what the problem is. Until they’re starving on the streets. And then, we’d better pray that the solution is “more government spending” as opposed to “kill the fucking spics/liberals/what-have-you”.

    I will stop here just shy of Godwin…

  67. 67.

    Judas Escargot

    August 2, 2011 at 11:50 am

    @NonyNony:

    Note too though that the “Defense” side isn’t exclusively Defense – it’s also Homeland Security. Which sucks, because I foresee that Republicans will happily tank things that are actually being done to make us safer (like assistance for first responders of all stripes) in exchange for keeping the Pentagon procurement office happy.

    My own concern: For pure science research, DOD is one of the few sources of substantial funding left (outside of the medical/pharmaceutical sector).

    Once the Teabaggers open up the books, and realize that a big pot of “defense” money is actually used for Mathin’, Sciencin’ and other book-larnin’… any bets as to where they’ll be wanting to cut?

    There goes what’s left of the US competitive advantage.

  68. 68.

    Dragon-King Wangchuck, firebagger (apparently)

    August 2, 2011 at 11:50 am

    I hate to rain on the parade again. I actually do – I am hugely in favour of defense spending cuts, and if Super Congress’ failure means an end (or even just a reduction) to Freedom Bombing, then that is a very very good thing. Not joking here. If I were a single-issues guy, Less War would be my single issue.

    BUT, regular Congress loves Freedom Bombs. The media loves Freedom Bombs. Freedom Bombs have a very large systematic advantage over anything else the Government spends money on.

    The original Iraq adventure was funded on emergency supplementals and were kept off Budget. And kudos to Obama for ending that bit of nonsense, but I am not convinced that ongoing or future new Freedom Bombing won’t return to off-Budget shenanigan-land.

  69. 69.

    aimai

    August 2, 2011 at 11:52 am

    @Ash Can:

    The tea party is unhappy about this deal because any deal that didn’t involve Obama resigning wasn’t really good enough for them. Just because they are unhappy doesn’t mean that its a good deal, or even an ok deal, for the Democrats. These people are delusional–delusional about what their acts meant, mean, and will mean, delusional about the nature of government, delusional about what their own elections meant for US governance. They are literally unable to grasp that the debt ceiling pays for debts we already incurred. They think that “fraud and waste” occupy the greater part of the entire budget. They think that prepaid insurance in the form of SS and medicare are “welfare” transfer payments from the middle class to poor people. They simply don’t have a clue.

    They are unhappy with this agreement because any agreement, in their eyes, is a capitulation on their part to the enemy. If Obama emerged still president at the end of it he and the dems “got something” and as far as they concerned all compromise is evil.

    aimai

  70. 70.

    Rick Taylor

    August 2, 2011 at 11:56 am

    I think at some point, Democrats need to refuse to compromise in a hostage situation, even though it hurts both sides; even though it hurts innocent people caught in the cross fire. Capitulation may be worth it in each battle individually, but it sets up a dynamic that gives control to whoever has the least amount of conscience. And the longer you go on capitulating, the higher the stakes get, and generally the harder it is to hold the line the time the next hostage is taken. Clinton vetoed Republican bills even though it meant a government shutdown, and at that seems to have made at least some Republicans, like McConnell, think twice about this sort of tactic.

  71. 71.

    boss bitch

    August 2, 2011 at 11:59 am

    @Keith G:

    could not reach an outcome that was supported by over 60% of the American public.

    right. Congress not doing what the majority of the public wants is unprecedented.

  72. 72.

    Karen

    August 2, 2011 at 12:02 pm

    I must have seen that American Crossroads ad about five times on two different talk shows at 12:30 AM (Fallon and Ferguson) and that really told me what we’re up against. They’re better funded, better supported by the media and as that voter suppression stunt in Wisconsin shows, more ruthless.

    Have we reached a point where the Dems have to be as ruthless and nasty and be willing to hold the country hostage? Have we sunk to that level? I hope not but I’m beginning to wonder.

  73. 73.

    Keith G

    August 2, 2011 at 12:18 pm

    @boss bitch: Your world is so simple – I sort of admire it.

    Majority public support is certainly a good tool to have on one’s side and people who want to be (or stay) in a national leadership role have to be able to use such tools effectively. If they can’t, it is not the end of the world, but it maybe the send of the time that they are considered an effective leader.

  74. 74.

    Jennifer

    August 2, 2011 at 12:24 pm

    @Karen: The short answer: yes.

    The slightly longer answer: bullies don’t respond to anything but brute force. What is needed is some big time asshole intervention – you know, like the kid who gets sick of being pounded on by a bully so he picks up a brick and brains the bully in the head with it. Bullies, who generally substitute brawn for brains, interpret this type of action as “that kid’s crazy; I’d better leave him alone.”

    What’s needed is for the bullies to get a major league slapdown – and I mean, slapped down so hard that all thoughts of revenge or payback are obliterated, as they’re too busy crawling around on the ground looking for their teeth. If it can be accomplished by goading the bully into a self-inflicted wound, as Clinton did to Gingrich the last time the GOP tried to hold a Democratic president, and the country, hostage, so much the better. But that’s the only thing that works – pain.

  75. 75.

    OzoneR

    August 2, 2011 at 12:27 pm

    @Keith G:

    Majority public support is certainly a good tool to have on one’s side

    providing that support translates in votes and the minority party is scared that they will lose, otherwise its worthless.

  76. 76.

    OzoneR

    August 2, 2011 at 12:29 pm

    @Jennifer:

    bullies don’t respond to anything but brute force. What is needed is some big time asshole intervention – you know, like the kid who gets sick of being pounded on by a bully so he picks up a brick and brains the bully in the head with it. Bullies, who generally substitute brawn for brains, interpret this type of action as “that kid’s crazy; I’d better leave him alone.”

    not the bullies I grew up with. They relished in that attention. They made me fight them every day, every single day, until I felt like going to school was like going to war and finally got expelled for fighting. Bully didn’t.

    Nevertheless, what you’re suggesting is, one again, civil fucking war.

  77. 77.

    Gustopher

    August 2, 2011 at 12:32 pm

    I still think Obama should have furloughed the air traffic controllers with the rest of the FAA.

    I don’t think the Teabaggers will give him another moderately well contained hostage situation. It’s big enough to be noticed, small enough not to be devastating.

  78. 78.

    Gustopher

    August 2, 2011 at 12:32 pm

    I still think Obama should have furloughed the air traffic controllers with the rest of the FAA.

    I don’t think the Teabaggers will give him another moderately well contained hostage situation. It’s big enough to be noticed, small enough not to be devastating.

  79. 79.

    OzoneR

    August 2, 2011 at 12:32 pm

    @Karen:

    Have we reached a point where the Dems have to be as ruthless and nasty and be willing to hold the country hostage? Have we sunk to that level?

    Yes, it’s called Civil War

  80. 80.

    R. Porrofatto

    August 2, 2011 at 12:35 pm

    This post is is exactly right. The threat of their extortion has always been destruction of the good of the country and the welfare of its non-rich citizens. It will not stop. In April of last year Republicans threatened to shutdown the government unless there were severe cuts in domestic non-defense programs. Last December, Republicans threatened the unemployment benefits of millions of Americans if Bush’s tax cuts to the GOP’s wealthy constituents were not extended. And now the debt “crisis” — a crisis entirely engineered by Republicans to begin with — which hasn’t been solved in the least.

    Paying “protection” money to the very criminal enterprise that threatens to destroy you is an installment plan, where the balance is never paid, and only keeps increasing.

  81. 81.

    OzoneR

    August 2, 2011 at 12:37 pm

    @Keith G:

    Majority public support is certainly a good tool to have on one’s side and people who want to be (or stay) in a national leadership role have to be able to use such tools effectively.

    Also, this doesn’t take into account that a majority didn’t even want to raise the debt ceiling at all.

  82. 82.

    Elie

    August 2, 2011 at 12:48 pm

    I think that progressives who want change at the highest level of the system, have to remember that we are picking the worst place to attack the opposition to make change. Logically, that is where they are the strongest with people and representatives who most strongly support the status quo and have been successful in the status quo.

    We need to be addressing and working to change way below that at the grass roots while doing what we can above, but not giving up and walking away when the sledding gets tough. While I understand burnout and frustration, and experience it myself over and over on the environmental area I work with most frequently, its not about me — its the goal that I am after and there are the salmon, orca and our beautiful ocean that need my help and cannot defend itself.

    Please. We have to figure this out and we will. Please stop beating up on our Democratic leadership. Those who we want stronger and different, we have to make different by influencing them out here. Their reward system right now is not enough about us and what we want. The pool that we are selecting our potential leaders from is not providing us the type of people with the view point we want…not just as individuals but the whole network.

    Please don’t quit…please don’t stop caring and working but please lets focus our efforts as well in the right place — local local local first. It will take effort and time and there is no way to change what we want changed without that. Also, prayfor or medidate on the help our Democratic leaders need — for Obama particularly. His burden is heavy. He and the Democrats are what we have right now and as imperfect as they are, you know the terror of what they hold off of us.

  83. 83.

    Elie

    August 2, 2011 at 1:03 pm

    Civil War is fail — 100% fail.

    Go take a look at revolutions and civil wars. Go read history. That is nothing, nothing you would wish on our people. Revolutions and Civil wars are not clean, discrete little things that you can watch on teevee and root for your side while you reach for the snacks. You have no idea but get an idea and go learn about it. And the rebuild after both sides are exhausted enough to have one side win? Year, decades, sometimes never. And underneath, the causes always still fester because violence and coercion do not change minds and hearts except temporarily. Black people in this country eventually benefited from the liberation wrought by the Civil War, but it was many decades of non violent work at lunch counters and churches, feeling the batton and the dogs, and bearing witness to that which made the change to hearts and minds. And you all know that its STILL a work in progress…

    Stop the bullshit and pouting and get to fucking work. Lets start with ourselves. I vow not to be defeated. I vow not to quit. Too many people need my caring.

    We have a victory. We did not default. The Congress did its work. We did not lose Medicare or social security. Many other cuts still require congressional approval in separate processes, leaving us back where we were anyway.

  84. 84.

    ABL

    August 2, 2011 at 1:10 pm

    @Hunter Gathers: FTW.

  85. 85.

    Dragon-King Wangchuck, firebagger (apparently)

    August 2, 2011 at 1:17 pm

    I don’t think Jennifer is suggesting civil war. Looks like she’s suggesting calling the GOP’s bluff.

    Example – remember Bachmann’s “learn to prioritize spending” nonsense (it was part of the chootz-paw thing). Well Obama could have done just that. Prioritized spending and sent out 50% Social Security checks and furloughed most of the federal civil service. Or in a less harmful to millions of people approach, he could have said that that’s what “prioritizing spending” means when it first came up. What did he do instead? He assured us that no one was getting laid off – especially teh military. Basically, he validated the accusation.

  86. 86.

    Elie

    August 2, 2011 at 1:25 pm

    @Dragon-King Wangchuck, firebagger (apparently):

    I think over the next few weeks we will know more specifically what we have and do not have. My early read is that it is not as catastrophic as some would have it — for their own reasons.

    Key: We did not lose Medicare, social security or HCR.
    Key.

  87. 87.

    The Worst Person In the World

    August 2, 2011 at 1:47 pm

    Maybe it’s time for Democrats to use procedural tools more aggressively.

    Reeeeeeeeeeeeeally? What was your first clue, DougJ?

    Some of us have been saying this for two and a half years.

  88. 88.

    replicnt6

    August 2, 2011 at 1:50 pm

    @Captain Haddock:

    Yeah, and maybe its time for the Washington Generals to play some defense.

    The Captain wins the thread in 2.

  89. 89.

    Keith G

    August 2, 2011 at 2:12 pm

    @OzoneR:

    Also, this doesn’t take into account that a majority didn’t even want to raise the debt ceiling at all.

    I do not recall seeing that data set, though I might not be all that surprised. Since this White House fails at proactive messaging, the terms of the debate often get set by the bad guys.

    But, I get it. Obama is Flaaaaawless. Okay.

    I hope he is.

  90. 90.

    Heliopause

    August 2, 2011 at 2:26 pm

    Maybe it’s time for Democrats to use procedural tools more aggressively.

    Yes, now, but act quickly before the Republicans extract a trillion in cuts with no tax increase and enable a supercommittee that will extract even more. Yes, now would be the time, before that happens.

  91. 91.

    LongHairedWeirdo

    August 2, 2011 at 2:48 pm

    The big problem is that most procedural tools are intended to help grant power to a minority position. The Republicans, by playing the “government *is* the problem!” card get to take hostages by refusing to do their jobs, knowing full well that the job has to be done, eventually.

    Herm. Maybe we should start calling the Republican caucus “the Republican Union” and suggest the reason they hate unions is that they loathe competition? They’ve engaged in multiple union tactics; the slow down, the work stoppage, the work-to-contract….

  92. 92.

    Keith G

    August 2, 2011 at 3:04 pm

    @LongHairedWeirdo: Thats been Obama’s big problem. His bargaining process was based on both sides wanting to do something. He has been continually sandbagged by those who are happy is noting at all gets done.

    You think he might learn.

  93. 93.

    TenguPhule

    August 2, 2011 at 6:45 pm

    They made me fight them every day, every single day, until I felt like going to school was like going to war and finally got expelled for fighting. Bully didn’t.

    Obviously you didn’t hit hard enough, or stopped too early.

    If there’s still a pulse, keep hitting.

  94. 94.

    sneezy

    August 2, 2011 at 6:49 pm

    @Davis X. Machina:

    And most politicians are still lawyers.

    I don’t think that statement is correct. The ABA says that in 2006, 36% of Representatives and 53% of Senators were lawyers. The web site is unclear on what “lawyer” means here (has a degree? was admitted to the bar?).

    If you have better information about a wider swath of “politicians,” I’d be interested to hear it.

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