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You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / War / Will I still see suspicion in your eyes?

Will I still see suspicion in your eyes?

by DougJ|  August 2, 201110:32 am| 113 Comments

This post is in: War

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Chunky Bobo argues that defense hawks have been caught in a trap by the trigger mechanism in the debt ceiling bill:

There’s plenty to be said about the details of the debt ceiling deal, but let’s start with the provision that’s making conservatives unhappiest: The use of broad defense cuts as part of the “trigger” mechanism that would automatically slash spending if the latest deficit commission’s recommendations can’t pass Congress. (See Rich Lowry, Bill Kristol, Yuval Levin, and others for expressions of concern and/or outright alarm.) In effect, defense cuts assumed the role that liberals wanted revenue increases to play in these negotiations, becoming the place where Republicans would give a little in order to get the deal they wanted done.

This clarifies something that’s been increasingly obvious for a while: The interests of right-wing tax cutters and right-wing defense hawks do not necessarily align with one another, and they will continue to diverge as we go deeper into the looming age of austerity.

[…..]

[T]he hawks are left putting their hope in a hypothetical Romney administration, while the anti-tax lobby gets to count this deal as a flat-out win. If I felt as strongly about defense spending as Kristol and many other conservatives do, I’d start thinking hard about how to change that dynamic — because otherwise it’s going to recur many times over in the years of deficit reduction to come.

I like this idea, but it’s obvious what will bring the tax-cutters and the neocons together: the discovery of a new Hitler somewhere in the world! You’re going to cut defense when we’re at risk from the greatest existential threat the world has even known (in the person of some third-world dictator you never heard of before last week)? I don’t think so.

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Reader Interactions

113Comments

  1. 1.

    Corner Stone

    August 2, 2011 at 10:37 am

    This trigger will never, ever be engaged.

  2. 2.

    Corner Stone

    August 2, 2011 at 10:38 am

    We are surrounded by Lil Hitlers. They’ll rotate through them.

  3. 3.

    dr. bloor

    August 2, 2011 at 10:39 am

    Nope. My $100 up against anyone who wants to bet that defense actually gets cut.

  4. 4.

    PeakVT

    August 2, 2011 at 10:39 am

    Related: Go with the flow. And also.

  5. 5.

    Villago Delenda Est

    August 2, 2011 at 10:47 am

    Here’s the thing about “Defense” spending:

    The Catfood Commission was all for doing the usual things to Defense that all members of the parasite overclass are for: freezing pay for soldiers, and cutting back on paying for the consquences of creating veterans. Health care, pensions, and the like. The vile Bachmann skank actually suggested that the VA take heavy hits in the name of Teahaddism.

    However, defense contracts, in the form of new weapons systems to be used against, I guess, the vile hordes of Eurasia, are sacrosanct. One of the Catfood Commissioners all but came out and said this. Fuck the troops, but keep the bucks flowing to the merchants of death.

  6. 6.

    Corner Stone

    August 2, 2011 at 10:47 am

    I like this idea, but it’s obvious what will bring the tax-cutters and the neocons together

    Why would they fight amongst themselves when they have a perfectly good outside party who’s more than willing to accommodate them?

  7. 7.

    GregB

    August 2, 2011 at 10:48 am

    I hear that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is in the process of growing a very short mustache.

    How dare you attack the military in the midst of the rise of a new Hitler.

  8. 8.

    Omnes Omnibus

    August 2, 2011 at 10:48 am

    @Corner Stone:
    Two little Hitlers will fight it out until
    One little Hitler does the other one’s will
    I will return
    I will not burn
    Down in the basement

  9. 9.

    Corner Stone

    August 2, 2011 at 10:49 am

    I’ll stake this out here. I’ll discuss terms with anyone who wants to bet against me on these two outcomes:
    1. The Bush Tax Cuts will be extended
    2. This trigger will never be engaged

  10. 10.

    Steve M.

    August 2, 2011 at 10:49 am

    President Perry will assure us that tax cuts are the best way to generate revenues for our nuclear war against Iran. And the GOP majorities in both houses will agree.

  11. 11.

    eric

    August 2, 2011 at 10:50 am

    @dr. bloor: ah, good doctor, then I would ask that you describe a bill that gets 51 votes in the Senate AND gets the House to approve…it is clear to me that any bill that gets the House’s blessing (and I assume it will have to start in the House) will have a hard time getting 51 votes…. let’s assume they get Nelson and the hawkish Lieberman….that is 49…assuming Webb is 50, then you have Pryor (not too likely), a hawkish Feinstein (but i find it unlikely she votes for a House friendly bill), landrieu (dont see it), McCaskill (not likely), Tester (maybe), Warner (possible)…that leaves John’s guy…manchin as the key to 51.

  12. 12.

    canuckistani

    August 2, 2011 at 10:50 am

    What do you need a new Hitler for? Is there no Iran? Is there no North Korea?

  13. 13.

    Halcyan

    August 2, 2011 at 10:50 am

    Perhaps the defense budget can afford a bit of a trim? Hmm?

  14. 14.

    IM

    August 2, 2011 at 10:51 am

    The moderate democrats, all fiscal hawks and honourable men, will come to the rescue. And a big bipartisan coalition will restore defense spending in a second.

  15. 15.

    no video at work

    August 2, 2011 at 10:52 am

    If ‘defense’ gets cut – and I am in the “a new Hitler will arise just in time to save the DoD” camp it will be as the catfood commission wanted & the teabaggers are all for – cuts to the poor dumb schmucks that signed up to serve this sorry excuse of a country.

    We don’t mind sendin em off to risk life & limb for KBR & country but we sure as hell are not gonna pay when they lose life or limb, or mental health. That would be so-solist.

  16. 16.

    Corner Stone

    August 2, 2011 at 10:54 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: I was expecting Nostra Omnibus.

    Two Histers, rise as the dark moon crests
    With fire, blood and blue jewel shining
    Usurpation of the throne of the West
    The tall warrior stands black

    Obviously I suck at quatrains.

  17. 17.

    eric

    August 2, 2011 at 10:55 am

    @IM: See, this is true insofar as you are dealing with a sane House. I would be far more nervous if the Dems controlled the House that the commission’s proposal gets approved. I have seen no evidence that the House GOP goes for anything that is not pure Tea Party dogma

  18. 18.

    Zifnab

    August 2, 2011 at 10:56 am

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    However, defense contracts, in the form of new weapons systems to be used against, I guess, the vile hordes of Eurasia, are sacrosanct. One of the Catfood Commissioners all but came out and said this. Fuck the troops, but keep the bucks flowing to the merchants of death.

    Right. This is the bottom line.

    Even Robert Gates was going on about raising Tricare rates to help curb military spending. But no one discussed decommissioning any of our 11 aircraft carriers (with 3 more in construction) or scaling back our massive submarine fleet or paring our nuclear weapons stockpile down.

    Check the latest “Death and Taxes” for 2011

    http://www.wallstats.com/deathandtaxes/

    We are going to be spending 67%(!!!) of our budget on the military. That’s nearly $900 billion dollars. Now look how much actually goes towards Personal. :-p

  19. 19.

    Samara Morgan

    August 2, 2011 at 10:57 am

    the trigger will engage, because Obama has a hostage– the Bush taxcuts.

    stopyerbitching, CS.
    this is pure-D consistant Obama– he has CONSISTANTLY tried to make Congress DO ITS JOB.
    this is the equivalent of sewing the supercommittee in a sack and letting them fight it out.
    he gave the dems some advantages by transforming defense cuts into leverage to be traded for revenues, and he gave the repubs political cover by doing it this way.

    CS, you are smarter than Douthat– he can see the trap.
    why cant you?

  20. 20.

    eric

    August 2, 2011 at 10:58 am

    @Zifnab: the irony for us Lefties is that killing the production of large weapons systems will NOW put people out of work and deepen the recession. Defense spending is largely keynsian stimulus.

  21. 21.

    Corner Stone

    August 2, 2011 at 10:59 am

    @Samara Morgan:The Bush Tax Cuts are a weapon to be wielded against Obama, not by him.
    Why can’t you see this simple fact?

  22. 22.

    IM

    August 2, 2011 at 11:01 am

    Well, eric. Let’s try to count*. 95 democrats -a seen yseterday, Them you need 130 republicans.

    In the senate 30 and 30 defense loving democrats and republicans can easily break a left-right filibuster.

    And a Obama veto – I don’t think so.

    * And with count I mean guess.

  23. 23.

    Samara Morgan

    August 2, 2011 at 11:01 am

    @IM:

    a big bipartisan coalition will restore defense spending in a second.

    that is why what is going on in Iraq is important.
    make no mistake, the teabaggers would have delighted in crashing the economy.
    but they have failed, and now i think the next logical gamespace move for the conservatives white (NHC) christian nativists is War.
    War with Iran as either Israel’s defender or proxy. that is why Panetta and Mullens are desparately dragging their feet on the way out the door in Iraq.

  24. 24.

    Samara Morgan

    August 2, 2011 at 11:03 am

    @Corner Stone: not now.
    the bush tax cuts are Obama’s hostage.
    its 3.6 trillion in revenue.

  25. 25.

    Villago Delenda Est

    August 2, 2011 at 11:03 am

    @eric:

    It may be “Keynsian stimulus” but it’s hollow, in that it produces goods that are of no further economic benefit. Unless they’re used for killing our enemy du jour, they sit in a motor pool, or on a tarmac, or at a dock, and rust. It’s a rat hole. A huge one.

    The sort of stimulus that pays off in terms of utility is stuff like railroads and highways. Things that generate further economic activity. Tanks and supercarriers do not do this nearly as effectively, even when they’re used as intended, to crush our enemies and then listen to the lamentations of their women.

  26. 26.

    Corner Stone

    August 2, 2011 at 11:10 am

    @Samara Morgan: We will have 9% U3 +/- in 2012 and anemic GDP growth. If you think for one second the Republicans aren’t coming for the Bush Tax Cuts then I don’t know what else to say to you.
    There is zero chance they expire. None. If chance came in a negative number I would assign its value here.
    The Republicans are salivating at the chance to run on a failed economy, high U3 and a president who’s “raising taxes on the American people and KILLING JOBS!!”
    They are peeing themselves to set this up.

  27. 27.

    Corner Stone

    August 2, 2011 at 11:12 am

    And contra President Stuck’s assertion that this recent deal has “inoculated” Obama against the “Tax and Spend” label, the Republicans will shamelessly, and ruthlessly slag the magical pony shit outta Obama over the Bush Tax Cuts.
    This is so predictable I can’t believe I have to explain it.

  28. 28.

    eric

    August 2, 2011 at 11:15 am

    @Villago Delenda Est: i agree, but we are not getting the better stimuli any time soon.

  29. 29.

    Villago Delenda Est

    August 2, 2011 at 11:17 am

    What’s even worse about “Defense” spending is that paying for their actual use, even in simulated conflicts, is expensive and frankly unsexy as far as the clowns of Congress are concerned. They love the shiny jets, but are loathe to actually pay for all the spare parts needed to keep these monsters operational, even if not used to kill brown people.

    Even during the salad days of DoD, the Reagan years, I was on the front lines of getting the equipment and spare parts needed to keep the war machine in tune. All this shit is expensive, in terms of treasure and time, to keep ready for use. The bigger the monster, the more it needs to be fed. And the thing is, we don’t need a huge monster. There is no threat that is out there that requires a huge monster. However, you’ve got cowardly assholes like Bush and Cheney who have this hammer that they MUST use on something, right now, even if it’s to repair a teacup.

  30. 30.

    eric

    August 2, 2011 at 11:19 am

    @IM: i do not see 95 dems voting to cut medicare benefits or cut SS….not now and not ever…the dems had a pain free vote because the GOP gave the bill passage. i think the same dynamic is in play that we just saw. Any commission report is going to have SOME give and take….even if it leans right, it will not be full bore TP and we have seen that the overwheliming majority of the GOP caucus will balk at such a bill. With no GOP votes, it never gets out of the house. Any bill that can get 95 dems in the House will never get the necessary GOPers …it wont be pure enough

  31. 31.

    Bulworth

    August 2, 2011 at 11:24 am

    I’m actually more optimistic about the defense trigger and the Bush tax cut extension. To prevent defense cuts and to ensure the tax cut extension will require the actual passing of an alternative piece of legislation. Doing nothing is the best outcome. Doing nothing was not the best outcome with the debt ceiling.

    Granted, the state of the Democratic spine is not encouraging, and President Romney and Vice-President Bachmann will surely want to institute a flat tax of 8% while repealing the entire New Deal. But progressives willingness to vote in the next election could stave off some of these horrific situations.

  32. 32.

    Martin

    August 2, 2011 at 11:28 am

    Actually, the trigger will be interesting to watch, because it puts the Dems in the position of making the GOP squirm by doing nothing. Those trigger cuts are exactly what progressives should be praying for – defense and health care spending. All the Dems need to do is block and stall and force an agreement to not happen, and we get the cuts we would want. And the lobbying from those two groups is going to be huge.

    And that debate will be happening in the context of the Bush tax cuts, as the timing puts them together. So where the GOP was able to dig in their heels and force spending cuts, the Dems can now (will they? Different question) dig in their heels on the trigger and demand the Bush tax cuts expire or other tax reforms take place.

    This isn’t a question of party unity so much as it’s a question of how the rules of the game favor one tactic or another. In Congress, if gridlock gives you your preferred outcome, you have a huge upper hand – and that’s what the GOP has been benefitting from, and in the next round that benefit will be held by the Dems.

  33. 33.

    THE

    August 2, 2011 at 11:29 am

    the discovery of a new Hitler somewhere in the world!

    Wrong horseman.

    With the onset of Peak Oil and climate change it is Famine not War that is stalking our world.

  34. 34.

    fasteddie9318

    August 2, 2011 at 11:31 am

    @Zifnab:

    Even Robert Gates was going on about raising Tricare rates to help curb military spending. But no one discussed decommissioning any of our 11 aircraft carriers (with 3 more in construction) or scaling back our massive submarine fleet or paring our nuclear weapons stockpile down.

    I can’t believe I’m reading this. Are you seriously suggesting that we concede undersea waters to al-Qaeda’s ruthless hordes of Jihadi Merpeople? You want to decommission aircraft carriers when, even now, Voldemort al-Zawahiri is training falcons and large parrots and other such ferocious birds to attack and peck innocent Americans around the world about the face and neck regions? And, hello, if we reduce our stockpile of nukes how can we ever credibly threaten Zombie bin Merladen that if his minions ever use a WMD against the United States, we will respond in kind by nuking some unrelated third party? Are you just completely unaware of the threat we’re facing?

  35. 35.

    Samara Morgan

    August 2, 2011 at 11:33 am

    @Corner Stone: but the first tranche for the debt ceiling comes before the cuts expire.
    we shall see.

    and before that comes September.

    like i said, im more worried that Palin and Bachman are going to persuade Bibi to launch on Iran right now.

  36. 36.

    Omnes Omnibus

    August 2, 2011 at 11:37 am

    @fasteddie9318: Your views are intriguing and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

  37. 37.

    eemom

    August 2, 2011 at 11:39 am

    @Samara Morgan:

    dear God, but you are a fucking idiot.

  38. 38.

    Samara Morgan

    August 2, 2011 at 11:41 am

    @eemom: no.
    i just have aspergers.
    idiots are below 70 points in IQ, like functional retardation.

    ramadan mubarak, crone.

  39. 39.

    eemom

    August 2, 2011 at 11:41 am

    ruthless hordes of Jihadi Merpeople

    le Win

  40. 40.

    Samara Morgan

    August 2, 2011 at 11:43 am

    @Martin: good call.
    i think you got that perfect.

  41. 41.

    eemom

    August 2, 2011 at 11:46 am

    @Samara Morgan:

    let’s see if I can translate this into your gibberish.

    u said “Palin and Bachmann are going to persuade Bibi to attack Iran”.
    u said this shitsack of a deal is a stroke of Machivellian genius by Obama.
    u think Obama is going to hold the tax cuts hostage.
    These are all RETARD statements.
    That makes u a retard.
    ramadan mubarek.

  42. 42.

    Omnes Omnibus

    August 2, 2011 at 11:47 am

    @eemom: Don’t laugh. Remember SEAL Team 6 buried bin Laden at sea. Are we sure he was dead? Undead, maybe?

  43. 43.

    Corner Stone

    August 2, 2011 at 11:47 am

    @Samara Morgan: The Republican House will bring a bill to extend the Bush Tax Cuts before the election. In order to give businesses the “confidence and certainty” they need to do some job creating.
    They will force Democrats to vote against the extension, which they will not do, and then they will dare Obama to veto it. Which he will not do.

  44. 44.

    Stooleo

    August 2, 2011 at 11:50 am

    O.T. Matt Damon schools Reason TV reporter and cameraman. h.t. boingboing

  45. 45.

    slag

    August 2, 2011 at 11:51 am

    These are all RETARD statements.
    __
    That makes u a retard.

    Really? Really. We can do better than this, people. We may have lost our principles, but we haven’t lost our dignity. Or is that a contradiction?

  46. 46.

    slag

    August 2, 2011 at 11:54 am

    @Stooleo: That was just beautiful!

  47. 47.

    Omnes Omnibus

    August 2, 2011 at 11:54 am

    @slag: When speaking to matoko_chan, one sometimes must use her idiom in order to communicate.

  48. 48.

    slag

    August 2, 2011 at 12:00 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: I wish I could agree with you there. That’s like using racial slurs to communicate with the teahadists. Not exactly a direction we should be going.

  49. 49.

    Anya

    August 2, 2011 at 12:04 pm

    @Corner Stone: Hate to say it, but you might be kinda-sorta right. President Obama apposes raising taxes on folks who make less than $250,000 a year. I am sure the Republicans will not negotiate in good faith, so they’ll hold the middle class hostage to maintain the current tax rate for the rich. But I am hoping the President will not compromise on this and he will let the Bush tax cuts expire.

  50. 50.

    eemom

    August 2, 2011 at 12:10 pm

    @slag:

    I agree, and normally I would never use that term. However, toko-loko has used it many, many times directed at me and many others here. So it’s kind of like the pass that members of a slurred group get to use the slurs amongst each other.

  51. 51.

    fasteddie9318

    August 2, 2011 at 12:11 pm

    @Anya: I mean, he could veto the full extension and have Congressional Democrats introduce new tax cuts only for those under $250,000 and make the Republicans vote against them, but that would be zOMG CLASS WAR AGAISNT TEH JOB CREATIONERS! and would undoubtedly signal to the al-Qaeda terrorist mer-bird-people hordes that it was time to begin their assault.

  52. 52.

    Corner Stone

    August 2, 2011 at 12:26 pm

    @fasteddie9318: I take your point.
    But Republicans will still control the House so if Obama were to veto the extension, which he would never do, then the House D’s couldn’t introduce an alternative. And I’m not sure if the Senate could rectify in some way.

    It’s all moot in any event. The House will send a bill extending all Bush Tax Cuts, the Senate will pass it and Obama will sign it. Before the 2012 elections.

  53. 53.

    Anya

    August 2, 2011 at 12:29 pm

    @fasteddie9318: It will be a tremendous disappointment if they extend the Bush tax cuts. This is setting tax rates for decades. I am hoping they won’t wimp on this.

  54. 54.

    Samara Morgan

    August 2, 2011 at 12:29 pm

    @eemom:

    u said this shitsack of a deal is a stroke of Machivellian genius by Obama.
    u think Obama is going to hold the tax cuts hostage.

    no, i just said you are too stupid to understand what Obama just did on observation. Martin explained it pretty well.
    Either you are willfully stupid, or you have a learning disability, like functional retardation for example.

    and i said you present as a crone, which is also empirically obvious.

  55. 55.

    Samara Morgan

    August 2, 2011 at 12:30 pm

    @Corner Stone: i’ll take that bet. ;)
    i think…the supercommittee maybe forced to come up with tax reform proposals by the healthcare provider lobbyists and the defense con lobbyists that Obama just set them up with.
    i think Obama will dooo eet.
    why would you think he wont? 3.6 trillion in revenues is a pretty strong incentive.

  56. 56.

    Anya

    August 2, 2011 at 12:35 pm

    @eemom: @Samara Morgan: What’s with the calling each other “retard”? Are you guys in high school?

  57. 57.

    fasteddie9318

    August 2, 2011 at 12:38 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    But Republicans will still control the House so if Obama were to veto the extension, which he would never do, then the House D’s couldn’t introduce an alternative. And I’m not sure if the Senate could rectify in some way.

    What I’m talking about would be all optics, no results. Veto full extension and then make the Republicans block a “tax cuts on only < $250,000" bill in committee, or make them filibuster it in the Senate. Then say you tried to get restore some shared sacrifice into the deficit situation but the Republicans decided that if rich people couldn't have a tax cut, then nobody could. Then all the Bush cuts sunset which, really, is probably for the best anyway. But Democrats, despite having a better narrative to sell the public at that point, will be pissing themselves in fear over being called tax-and-spenders, so this is all going to happen as you predict. And, frankly, the White House's attempt to convince me that Obama is going to take a hard line on extending the tax cuts feels a little insulting. I was born at night, but it wasn't last night.

  58. 58.

    Samara Morgan

    August 2, 2011 at 12:38 pm

    @Corner Stone: and….extending the taxcuts was the best deal Obama could work at that point in time…
    the game has evolved.

  59. 59.

    Corner Stone

    August 2, 2011 at 12:39 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    why would you think he wont? 3.6 trillion in revenues is a pretty strong incentive.

    Re-election is a stronger incentive.
    He’s hanging on for life at this point. Letting, or worse, forcing those cuts to expire and you may as well hand the WH on a platter.
    And look at the 23 Senate D’s running for re-election. You think they are going to vote No ?

    ETA, they won’t have a choice this time to let it kick to the lame duck. The R’s are going to force this vote.

  60. 60.

    Samara Morgan

    August 2, 2011 at 12:40 pm

    @Anya: its my culture.
    im fluent in WoW.

  61. 61.

    Samara Morgan

    August 2, 2011 at 12:41 pm

    @Corner Stone: but the election happens BEFORE December 2012, when the cuts expire.
    he can do what he like.
    ;)

  62. 62.

    Samara Morgan

    August 2, 2011 at 12:43 pm

    @Corner Stone: so what if they force the vote?
    all O has to do is stall.
    all the dems have to is stall on the supercommittee also, while the defense con lobbyists, healthcare providers and teabaggers chew the retardicans new arse-holes.
    its genius.

  63. 63.

    Omnes Omnibus

    August 2, 2011 at 12:48 pm

    @Samara Morgan: Legislation to extend the tax cuts can be introduced at any time. Corner Stone is correct that the GOP will introduce that legislation at the time that they consider most advantageous – near the 2012 elections. Whether they pass or not depends on how all the parties play their hands. I am not particularly sanguine that the Congressional Democrats will play hardball during election season and, if they don’t, Obama won’t veto the extension. It would be dumb for him to stick neck out alone.

  64. 64.

    Samara Morgan

    August 2, 2011 at 12:48 pm

    srsly….Douthat sees the trap.
    and the juicers can’t– juicers are not as smart as Ross Douchehat?

  65. 65.

    Corner Stone

    August 2, 2011 at 12:49 pm

    @Samara Morgan: I’ve tried to explain this to you, but you’re on to another fixation.
    Obama will not have a choice. The R’s control the House and they will force the vote BEFORE the 2012 elections.
    The Senate will not stall. The 23 D’s running for re-election will be screaming at Reid if he doesn’t bring the passed House bill to the floor.
    Because every day it lingers the R opposition candidates will be spending millions to advertise how the D’s are KILLING JOBS!! No certainty! No business confidence!!
    Job creators can’t create! You’re going to lose your house because of D intransigence! All because they want to Tax and Spend!!

  66. 66.

    fasteddie9318

    August 2, 2011 at 12:50 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    so what if they force the vote?
    all O has to do is stall.

    And then he gets to run his reelection campaign on the sure winner issue of WHY AREN’T YOU DOING ANYTHING ABOUT THE TAX CUTS WHAT’S TAKING YOU SO LONG AREN’T YOU TEH PRESIDENT?!

  67. 67.

    Bill F

    August 2, 2011 at 12:50 pm

    I’m sure defense contractors will not try to influence this process in any way.

  68. 68.

    Corner Stone

    August 2, 2011 at 12:51 pm

    @Samara Morgan: Every other day you are here slagging Douchehat. And now we’re supposed to be following his lead on an intellectual pursuit in political gaming?

  69. 69.

    Paul in KY

    August 2, 2011 at 12:52 pm

    @fasteddie9318: That doesn’t sound like the Democrats we have up there.

  70. 70.

    fasteddie9318

    August 2, 2011 at 12:54 pm

    @Paul in KY: Well, you go to war with the Democrats you have, etc., which basically means you don’t go to war since you don’t have much of an army.

  71. 71.

    Corner Stone

    August 2, 2011 at 12:54 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    while the defense con lobbyists, healthcare providers

    I’ve never heard of these interest groups. By any chance do they have any money or influence in Washington?

  72. 72.

    Paul in KY

    August 2, 2011 at 12:57 pm

    @Corner Stone: Wouldn’t it be good politics for Pres. Obama to veto it & then whether or not the veto is overridden, he can then campaign against the tax cuts (a position I would think any Democratic politician running for President would want to have)?

  73. 73.

    liberal

    August 2, 2011 at 12:57 pm

    @Anya:
    I’m with eemom on this one. She’s a retard. I’m actually not even convinced it’s a human we’re dealing with; could be a poorly written AI program that clearly fails the Turing test.

  74. 74.

    liberal

    August 2, 2011 at 12:58 pm

    @Corner Stone:
    Heh. My thought exactly.

  75. 75.

    wrb

    August 2, 2011 at 12:59 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    He should propose a law now that lowers middle class taxes even more (as a stimulus measure) for 2 years and let the Republicans fight it.

    Then either Republicans are cornered, fighting tax cuts and the type of job creation they say works or they go along with it and the upper income cuts can be left to expire on their lonesome.

  76. 76.

    liberal

    August 2, 2011 at 12:59 pm

    @Anya:

    But I am hoping the President will not compromise on this and he will let the Bush tax cuts expire.

    Would that it were so.

  77. 77.

    Paul in KY

    August 2, 2011 at 1:00 pm

    @fasteddie9318: That’s what Sun Tzu would say ;-)

  78. 78.

    Omnes Omnibus

    August 2, 2011 at 1:00 pm

    @Samara Morgan: Corner Stone and I tend to see political process questions from opposite sides, and we see the difficulty here. I don’t have the same certainty that he does that the tax cuts will be extended, but I do think it is likely.

  79. 79.

    liberal

    August 2, 2011 at 1:01 pm

    Here’s an “AI” program that looks to be more sophisticated than “Samara Morgan”.

  80. 80.

    Corner Stone

    August 2, 2011 at 1:03 pm

    @Paul in KY: If he wants to go home to Chicago before embarkening on his speechifying tour around the world.

  81. 81.

    fasteddie9318

    August 2, 2011 at 1:05 pm

    @Paul in KY:

    Wouldn’t it be good politics for Pres. Obama to veto it & then whether or not the veto is overridden, he can then campaign against the tax cuts (a position I would think any Democratic politician running for President would want to have)?

    If he vetoed the extension and had his veto overriden, his campaign would be over. The display of sheer weakness would finish him.

  82. 82.

    Paul in KY

    August 2, 2011 at 1:09 pm

    @Corner Stone: Why in your opinion is it not good politics when running for re-election for him to say ‘We’ve had X years of these tax cuts for the wealthiest to do their work & I have failed to see them operate as their backers contend, therefore we’re going to return the rates to what they were the last time this nation was fully employed & prosperous’. Sounds to me like a good way to draw a contridiction between youself & the same-ole-Republican-corporate-kiss-ass.

    By vetoing it & sending it back to the Senate, the craven ‘Democratic’ senators who want to vote for it will have their chance.

  83. 83.

    eemom

    August 2, 2011 at 1:10 pm

    Can I have a sane — i.e., not toko-loko — person who believes Obama will let /make the rich tax cuts expire — that there is even a chance in hell that he will — please explain to me what their basis is for believing that, given yesterday’s abomination and last December’s?

    Exactly why and how do you think he’s going to grow a spine between now and then?

    I mean, that Lucy/Charlie Brown/football thing is a tired one, but some folks…..

  84. 84.

    Paul in KY

    August 2, 2011 at 1:10 pm

    @fasteddie9318: It wouldn’t be him overriding it, it would be every Republican senator & the number of craven fake-Democratic ones.

  85. 85.

    Paul in KY

    August 2, 2011 at 1:15 pm

    @eemom: If he wants to be re-elected, he will. Pres. Truman said that anytime people have the choice between a fake Republican & a real one, they’ll vote for the real one.

    This would be his chance to show the low information voters (who generally are not in the top tax brackets) that he’s on their side & the Republican isn’t.

    To me, it doesn’t matter for his campaign purposes what the Senate does, as long as he’s on the right side of the issue.

  86. 86.

    Omnes Omnibus

    August 2, 2011 at 1:15 pm

    @Paul in KY: Why is it not good politics? Because average voters have been conditioned to see “tax cut = good thing” and “tax increase = bad thing.” Policy-wise, this is not correct, but the 30-40+ year campaign to drum that into people’s head has worked. In the next year, we aren’t going to correct that. A situation where the GOPers can say “Obama is going to raise your taxes” or “Obama raised your taxes” is one which probably helps the GOP.

  87. 87.

    fasteddie9318

    August 2, 2011 at 1:18 pm

    @Paul in KY: It would be a high-profile veto overridden right before an election. For a president already perceived to be weak, that’s a death-knell.

  88. 88.

    wrb

    August 2, 2011 at 1:18 pm

    @eemom:

    Can I have a sane—i.e., not toko-loko—person who believes Obama will let /make the rich tax cuts expire—that there is even a chance in hell that he will—please explain to me what their basis is for believing that, given yesterday’s abomination and last December’s?

    He’s not going to unless they can be broken off from the middle-class tax cuts that are part of the same bill.

    Raising middle-class taxes right before an election would

    a) probably cost the election
    b) be bad policy, as weak as the economy is, unless compensating stimulus spending is enacted, which doesn’t look likely to come out of the house.

  89. 89.

    Paul in KY

    August 2, 2011 at 1:23 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: All he has to do is say ‘If you make more than $250,000 a year, I raised your taxes (and smile). If you don’t make that much, I didn’t raise them & this stops yours from being raised to cover the money we’ve lost due to those tax cuts for the wealthy.’

    It just took me 45 secs to come up with that.

  90. 90.

    Paul in KY

    August 2, 2011 at 1:25 pm

    @fasteddie9318: As long as he keeps a majority of Democratic senators on his side, I don’t see how it could be considered a ‘death knell’. All 42 or so Repubs will vote to override, how does that hurt him? If he declared every day to be ‘Jesus Rules Day’, they would vote against that.

    I think the average voter can/could see that.

  91. 91.

    Corner Stone

    August 2, 2011 at 1:27 pm

    @Paul in KY: There are a couple points, IMO.
    First, it’s bad politics because it leaves him set up in the 10-ring for the “Tax and Spend” bullshit. He’s also demagogued himself into a corner by repeatedly vowing to never raise taxes on people in the “middle class” And the R’s will never, ever allow the decoupling of the tax cuts. So it will be all or none.
    Otherwise, if he vetos a bill 23 D’s in the Senate are for while they are in tough re-election fights he better double his Secret Service detail. And if by some freakin’ miracle he wins re-election and the D’s stay in the majority in the Senate he will be dealing with some people who will chew glass for a chance to fuck him over. Because he won’t be much help getting them re-elected again in 6 years and they will have a raging hard-on to destroy his legacy for fucking with their egos.

    It’s an all around loser for him and the D party, which is one of the main reasons I scream so loudly that The Deal to extend the Bush Tax Cuts was such a horrible mistake.

  92. 92.

    Omnes Omnibus

    August 2, 2011 at 1:27 pm

    @Paul in KY: During the campaign season, the GOP will do their level best to elide the difference between the middle class tax cut and the $250K + one. Democrats would have to explain and if you are explaining you are losing.

    Look, policy-wise, I think you are right. Politically, I doubt it is possible. If, however, political conditions change in a way that make it possible, I would say jump on the opportunity with both feet.

  93. 93.

    Corner Stone

    August 2, 2011 at 1:29 pm

    @Paul in KY: In 2010 a majority of voters believed Obama had raised their taxes.

  94. 94.

    Corner Stone

    August 2, 2011 at 1:31 pm

    @Paul in KY:

    As long as he keeps a majority of Democratic senators on his side, I don’t see how it could be considered a ‘death knell’.

    There are 23 D’s running for re-election in 2012. Which do you think they’d prefer to run on?

  95. 95.

    fasteddie9318

    August 2, 2011 at 1:32 pm

    @Paul in KY:

    As long as he keeps a majority of Democratic senators on his side, I don’t see how it could be considered a ‘death knell’. All 42 or so Repubs will vote to override, how does that hurt him?

    We’re assuming an override, right? There are 47 Senate Republicans, and Lieberman would be certain to vote to override in that situation. He’d have to lose at least 19 Democrats for an override in the Senate and 48 in the House. For a presidential veto of the profile of the Bush tax cut extension, in the middle of a presidential reelection campaign, that’s a shocking display of weakness. Even putting the optics of vetoing tax cuts aside, it would cripple Obama politically to appear that weak.

  96. 96.

    Paul in KY

    August 2, 2011 at 1:34 pm

    @Corner Stone: Make your weakness your strength. Embrace the ‘tax and spend’. Pres. Obama should say: ‘I’m gonna start taxing the wealthy like they should have been taxed the last 11 years & I’m gonna spend money to help the American people.’ Turn it so that when people hear ‘tax and spend’ they think of the above formulation. Propaganda 101.

    I know I’m crazy, but why not? Being a Republican-Lite (in policy) will get him beat, IMO.

  97. 97.

    fasteddie9318

    August 2, 2011 at 1:35 pm

    @Paul in KY:

    All he has to do is say ‘If you make more than $250,000 a year, I raised your taxes (and smile). If you don’t make that much, I didn’t raise them & this stops yours from being raised to cover the money we’ve lost due to those tax cuts for the wealthy.’

    How would he be able to say that? The Republicans aren’t stupid enough to decouple the low-end cuts from the high-end cuts, so Obama will either have to veto them all or sign them all into law.

  98. 98.

    Paul in KY

    August 2, 2011 at 1:36 pm

    @Corner Stone: You and I know that is wrong. Use some of his vast war chest to change that opinion. Not going to be easy, but getting the majority to believe he didn’t should be no harder than what the Repubs accomplished in 2010, since that is actually the truth Pres. Obama would be peddling.

  99. 99.

    Jinxtigr

    August 2, 2011 at 1:37 pm

    Ten years retroactive tax cuts for those earning less than $25K a year, in the form of a social-services card that can only be spent on American locally produced things XD

  100. 100.

    Paul in KY

    August 2, 2011 at 1:38 pm

    @Corner Stone: Let them vote for the fucking tax cuts. So long as Pres. Obama is against them, he can truthfully state that he is on the side of the American worker.

    Senator fake-Democrat can respectfully disagree & run their own campaign.

  101. 101.

    Uncle Clarence Thomas

    August 2, 2011 at 1:40 pm

    .
    .
    Fortunately, President Obama’s debt ceiling victory will eclipse his Bush tax cut expiration victory in the overtaxed minds of The American People, giving them one less stressful excitement to remember, and thus leading to longer, happier lives. Not surprising – this saintly man has built his life on relentless and selfless thoughtfulness.
    .
    .

  102. 102.

    Paul in KY

    August 2, 2011 at 1:40 pm

    @fasteddie9318: If they sent up a bill on puppy fucking & Pres. Obama vetoed it & then the veto was overridden, how does that make him weak?

    He must approve every stupid bill he thinks may get overridden?

  103. 103.

    Paul in KY

    August 2, 2011 at 1:43 pm

    @fasteddie9318: Can you tell me what ‘middle class cuts’ are in the Bush tax cuts right now? Probably the Repubs would add a few to make your point, but I thought they were all for wealthy people (> 250 Kers).

  104. 104.

    Corner Stone

    August 2, 2011 at 1:44 pm

    President Obama is in the absolute political fight of his life if he wants to be re-elected.
    He will do nothing to stray from the re-election path, or upset his bid in any way.
    It’s why he would do anything to not have a default, would never invoke the 14th, and he will never allow the Bush Tax Cuts to expire.
    He will have disgusting GDP and U3 so high it’d make a falcon sick to his stomach.
    Not to mention all the things the R’s will be throwing at him.

    To sum up, everything he has done since the lame duck session of 2010 has been about getting re-elected. We’re just going to have to ride along and pay the price to make sure that comes to reality.

  105. 105.

    Corner Stone

    August 2, 2011 at 1:46 pm

    @Paul in KY: Paul, let’s just disagree.

  106. 106.

    fasteddie9318

    August 2, 2011 at 1:47 pm

    @Paul in KY:

    If they sent up a bill on puppy fucking & Pres. Obama vetoed it & then the veto was overridden, how does that make him weak?

    Seriously? A president who already has people questioning his spine gets repudiated by at least 1/3 of his party’s elected representatives in Congress and that doesn’t make him look weak?

    @Paul in KY:

    Can you tell me what ‘middle class cuts’ are in the Bush tax cuts right now? Probably the Repubs would add a few to make your point, but I thought they were all for wealthy people (> 250 Kers).

    Sadly, No.

    * a new 10% bracket was created for single filers with taxable income up to $6,000, joint filers up to $12,000, and heads of households up to $10,000.
    * the 15% bracket’s lower threshold was indexed to the new 10% bracket
    * the 28% bracket would be lowered to 25% by 2006.
    * the 31% bracket would be lowered to 28% by 2006
    * the 36% bracket would be lowered to 33% by 2006
    * the 39.6% bracket would be lowered to 35% by 2006

  107. 107.

    Paul in KY

    August 2, 2011 at 1:53 pm

    @Corner Stone: OK

  108. 108.

    Paul in KY

    August 2, 2011 at 1:56 pm

    @fasteddie9318: I think he’s just going to have to pull a Truman 48 & run against the ‘do nothing’ congress, Democrats & Repubs alike. Probably emphasize the House being the prime ‘do nothingers’.

    Thanks for the info on the middle class stuff. Makes it a bit harder to massage the optics.

  109. 109.

    El Cid

    August 2, 2011 at 2:44 pm

    They can put in whatever “triggers” they want.

    The triggers will simply not be pulled when it comes to cutting defense spending, raising taxes (whether by raising rates or ‘closing loophole’ fantasies) or failing to cut social and investment programs more.

    I see zero evidence that there are even the tiniest signs of a political establishment which would do these things.

    Unless there’s some completely unpredicted massive political shift:

    The Bush Jr. tax cuts will never be allowed to cease and roll back.

    Taxes on the rich, super-rich, and their socio-economic combinations known as “corporations” will not be raised.

    Loopholes will not be closed in any effective way. Oh sure, they might be closed be law. But they won’t result in any net tax paid. Or there will be extensions, “triggers” to impose them, and so forth.

  110. 110.

    AAA Bonds

    August 2, 2011 at 4:22 pm

    The “looming age of austerity”?

    Fuck him, I hope he burns in hell.

  111. 111.

    AAA Bonds

    August 2, 2011 at 4:23 pm

    Note how they’re normalizing “austerity”.

    “Austerity” is a recipe for economic disaster. You ever get to the point where you’re saying that word in a measured and calm tone, you’ve become part of the problem, at the level of David Brooks.

  112. 112.

    AAA Bonds

    August 2, 2011 at 4:26 pm

    The Republicans fucking won, by the way.

  113. 113.

    Samara Morgan

    August 2, 2011 at 9:20 pm

    @AAA Bonds: you stooopid.
    the retardicans haven’t won. Obama just loosed a living hell of lobbyists on them.
    What did O want from the bill? raise the debt ceiling out into 2013.
    he got it.
    the teabaggers meant to crash the economy.
    they lost.

    and its not austerity without tax revenues to balance the cuts.

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