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Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Too often we hand the biggest microphones to the cynics and the critics who delight in declaring failure.

Reality always lies in wait for … Democrats.

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Seems like a complicated subject, have you tried yelling at it?

The poor and middle-class pay taxes, the rich pay accountants, the wealthy pay politicians.

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We are builders in a constant struggle with destroyers. let’s win this.

Republican obstruction dressed up as bipartisanship. Again.

He really is that stupid.

If senate republicans had any shame, they’d die of it.

Imperialist aggressors must be defeated, or the whole world loses.

But frankly mr. cole, I’ll be happier when you get back to telling us to go fuck ourselves.

Fuck the extremist election deniers. What’s money for if not for keeping them out of office?

No one could have predicted…

Everybody saw this coming.

Happy indictment week to all who celebrate!

Not so fun when the rabbit gets the gun, is it?

Perhaps you mistook them for somebody who gives a damn.

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The words do not have to be perfect.

When do we start airlifting the women and children out of Texas?

Incompetence, fear, or corruption? why not all three?

And now I have baud making fun of me. this day can’t get worse.

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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Christian compassion

Christian compassion

by Freddie deBoer|  August 7, 201110:00 am| 169 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads

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Here’s Catholic conservative Tim Carney showing that Christian compassion we all know and love, regarding the financial, emotional, and family devastation that is having your home foreclosed on:

Remember that part in the bible? It’s like my favorite verse: “Thou shalt increase human suffering if it helps your cousin make money.” I think it’s from Acts. But Freddie, you say, he’s just telling a joke. I’m sure that’s not his primary objection to not helping American families deal with the consequences of the greed and corruption of banks that created the mortgage crisis. Aside from the questionable Christianity of joking about a crisis that is devastating the American family, sure. It’s just that the rest of his rationale for opposing homeowner assistance is also, for all intents and purposes, a joke.

Enjoy the sabbath, everybody! Keep it holy.

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Reader Interactions

169Comments

  1. 1.

    harlana

    August 7, 2011 at 10:04 am

    How adorable.

  2. 2.

    Regnad Kicn

    August 7, 2011 at 10:08 am

    keep it secret. keep it safe.

  3. 3.

    beltane

    August 7, 2011 at 10:09 am

    Over the years, I’ve learned that the best way to practice Christian values is to avoid Christianity, and Christians like the plague.

  4. 4.

    dan

    August 7, 2011 at 10:13 am

    Tags – Douche, Dick, Fuckhead, Scumbag, Prick, Oozing Pustule of Evil.

  5. 5.

    Kathleen

    August 7, 2011 at 10:17 am

    But but but…he’s probably “pro life”!!!!! That trumps everything.

  6. 6.

    Southern Beale

    August 7, 2011 at 10:18 am

    “We write the legislation, and they pass our ideas” — an insider’s look at ALEC’s confab in New Orleans.

    Be nice if someone aside from some dirty fucking hippies were talking about this …

  7. 7.

    Villago Delenda Est

    August 7, 2011 at 10:21 am

    @beltane:

    Most of these people are not followers of Jesus. They’re either sex obsessed and authoritarian Paulists, or outright Mammonists.

  8. 8.

    PurpleGirl

    August 7, 2011 at 10:24 am

    @Villago Delenda Est: But they call themselves Christian.

    That man needs some humbling, badly. I don’t know how it could happen, but he needs to learn how it feels to have your whole change for the worse.

  9. 9.

    arguingwithsignposts

    August 7, 2011 at 10:25 am

    @PurpleGirl:

    That man needs some humbling, badly

    Maybe we could send him a copy of Bobo’s new book.

  10. 10.

    buckyblue

    August 7, 2011 at 10:30 am

    Many will claim, “Father, I cast out demons in your name”, and I will see, “Get away from me, I do not know you”. Many are on the wide path but the path to heaven is thin. I think of those passages when I see guys like this, or Dobson, Robertson and the rest.

  11. 11.

    RossInDetroit

    August 7, 2011 at 10:37 am

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    They’re either sex obsessed and authoritarian Paulists, or outright Mammonists.

    Do you mean the saint or the Libertarian? I think it applies either way.

  12. 12.

    Mark S.

    August 7, 2011 at 10:38 am

    Jesus was a carpenter, so he probably liked foreclosure too.

  13. 13.

    toujoursdan

    August 7, 2011 at 10:39 am

    Waving the Christian flag doesn’t ensure that its followers are going to follow the teachings it espouses, any more than waving the American flag prevents its patriots from propping up despotic, human rights-abusing regimes, or sending people to Gitmo without trial, all in the name of freedom and democracy of course.

    Human beings are generally douchebags (which is a belief that forms a core part of Christian doctrine, incidentally.)

  14. 14.

    RossInDetroit

    August 7, 2011 at 10:39 am

    @Mark S.:

    Jesus was a carpenter, so he probably liked foreclosure too.

    Think of all the carpenters thrown out of work by the housing market crash. Why do the banks, lenders, rating agencies and mortgage mills hate Jesus so much?

  15. 15.

    Meredith

    August 7, 2011 at 10:40 am

    @beltane: My sentiments exactly!

  16. 16.

    Villago Delenda Est

    August 7, 2011 at 10:41 am

    @RossInDetroit:

    I was referring to the saint, not the Libertarian moron. But you’re right, its ambiguous in the current climate.

  17. 17.

    harlana

    August 7, 2011 at 10:48 am

    You know, I always get a little tickled when I get to talking about people being thrown out of their homes.

  18. 18.

    The Worst Person In the World

    August 7, 2011 at 10:50 am

    My god. What an absolutely horrible, callous, vicious person.

    It comforts me to know that inside he is likely a churning cauldron of insecurities.

    And no, he is most assuredly not, in my view, anywhere near being a devotee of the, you know, ACTUAL teachings of the person we think of as being Jesus Christ.

    This is the type of person for whom tarring and feathering were created, during the coming revolution.

  19. 19.

    Judas Escargot

    August 7, 2011 at 10:58 am

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Most of these people are not followers of Jesus. They’re either sex obsessed and authoritarian Paulists, or outright Mammonists.

    It’s better to be foreclosed-upon and homeless, than to burn.

  20. 20.

    Rome Again

    August 7, 2011 at 11:00 am

    Enjoy the sabbath, everybody! Keep it holy.

    Uhhh, that was yesterday.

    I am both amazed at and proud of my fellow BJ’ers who understand and point out the scriptural errors of humans. Good work! :)

  21. 21.

    Southern Beale

    August 7, 2011 at 11:05 am

    Re-blogwhoring because this thread seems more appropriate:

    Hey Rick Perry, no one cares about your religion anymore.

    And now off to vacuum and watch a movie.

  22. 22.

    Omnes Omnibus

    August 7, 2011 at 11:06 am

    OT: Has anyone mentioned last night’s Tottenham riots in London yet?

  23. 23.

    jwb

    August 7, 2011 at 11:07 am

    What no appearance yet by M_C demanding that you repent of your libertarian ideas? My faith in humanity is crushed!

  24. 24.

    Joseph Nobles

    August 7, 2011 at 11:08 am

    Yes, I remember fondly the story of Jesus driving the foreclosed from the temple.

  25. 25.

    Freddie deBoer

    August 7, 2011 at 11:09 am

    She’s gotta sleep sometime.

  26. 26.

    Omnes Omnibus

    August 7, 2011 at 11:10 am

    @jwb: If you look in a mirror and say her name three times, she will appear. You just have to figure which name to use. And, while you are figuring, you might also want to rethink the whole endeavor.

  27. 27.

    Judas Escargot

    August 7, 2011 at 11:18 am

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Austerity works!

    Clicked over to Sullivan’s (since I assume that he knows a lot more about England-as-a-country and British culture than I do and might have an insight or two on this that wouldn’t occur to me).

    Disappointed: His latest post is yet another fawning thing about how awesome it is to be selectively irrational. If those riots had been in Benghazi or Tehran, the blog would be festooned with green ribbons or whatever.

    That man really couldn’t give two shits about the American/European working classes, could he?

  28. 28.

    scav

    August 7, 2011 at 11:19 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: OT.2 But the Tottenham riots are at least slightly more explicable compared to the mass protests in Israel. They’re demanding government action to reduce the cost of housing and food, actions I don’t think they’ve cleared with their socia1ist-hatin’ buddies over here.

  29. 29.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 11:24 am

    @beltane: exactly. this is contemporary America xianity….a memetic mutation of the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.
    The bible has no memetic hygiene.
    That is what the injuction against translation and the hadith and sunnah guard against in the Noble Quran.

  30. 30.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 11:24 am

    @beltane: exactly. this is contemporary America xianity….a memetic mutation of the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.
    The bible has no memetic hygiene.
    That is what the injuction against translation and the hadith and sunnah guard against in the Noble Quran.

  31. 31.

    terraformer

    August 7, 2011 at 11:26 am

    You know, I could tell which guy was the asshole just by looking at their pictures. Usually I don’t prescribe to that kind of “judge a book by its cover” M.O., but this guy just looked the part, and indeed, he played the part.

  32. 32.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 11:26 am

    and why doesn’t freddie go post his useless blatherings at redstate and hotair?
    because hes a gormless glibertarian wanker and Obama-concern-troll?

  33. 33.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 11:28 am

    or because hes a gutless whiny bitch and a coward that runs away from debate?

  34. 34.

    Cacti

    August 7, 2011 at 11:32 am

    One of the convenient parts about following an imaginary Messiah, is that you can pretty much make it up as you go along.

  35. 35.

    jwb

    August 7, 2011 at 11:32 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: Cool, right on cue.

  36. 36.

    jwb

    August 7, 2011 at 11:33 am

    @Judas Escargot: You just figured this out?

  37. 37.

    Omnes Omnibus

    August 7, 2011 at 11:33 am

    @Judas Escargot: I usually don’t read Sully, but I clicked over. I now remember why I usually don’t read Sully.

  38. 38.

    Villago Delenda Est

    August 7, 2011 at 11:40 am

    @Samara Morgan:

    Yet, Imams disagree on interpretation of the Quran, just as Christian theologians and Rabbis disagree about the Old and New Testaments. Regardless of translation issues.

    You still haven’t explained why the Saudi religious police have among their top priorities (aside from letting women die in fires) that of suppressing Christians for fear that they’ll attempt to convert the Muslim flock.

  39. 39.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 11:43 am

    @Freddie deBoer: she never sleeps….ahhh… god, the things she shows you….

    like this.

  40. 40.

    Head Bulshytt Talker in Chief of the Temple of Libertarianism(superluminar)

    August 7, 2011 at 11:46 am

    Clicked over to Sullivan’s (since I assume that he knows a lot more about England-as-a-country and British culture than I do

    Even if you were a total retard whom had just reached this planet from the farthest limits of the galaxy, knowing nothing whatsoever, this statement would be incorrect.

  41. 41.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 11:52 am

    @Villago Delenda Est: i explained, they dont have to. xians are not allowed in KSA without a permit.and missionaries are never allowed in. proselytizing is legally punishable by imprisonment, and the mutaaqa can arrest visitors for holding unapproved church services.
    In other parts of MENA muslims will kill missionaries. Like the toothbrush doctors.

    its in the Quran.
    proportional response to the Proselytizers.

    This is the reason that after 10 years and 4.4 trillion taxpayer dollars of invasion and occupation, Iraq is still 97% muslim and A-stan is still 99% muslim.
    We built one measly church in Kirkuk and the “insurgents” are busily burning down the others.

    America cant buy off the clergy to change the laws against proselytization, and interpretation is LIMITED by the sunnah and hadith….and America cannot rewrite the Generous Quran.
    game ovah.

  42. 42.

    Kathy in St. Louis

    August 7, 2011 at 11:54 am

    This guy is no less making a living out of this crap than Pat Robertson, the Dobson group, or John Hagee. Most of the Bishops of the Catholic Church are card-carrying, right-wing Republicans, so he won’t get a rebuke from that source. If you are acquainted with Bill Donahue of the Catholic League, it’s just another right wing fund raising deal, though they just use the money for their own salaries and to keep conservative Catholics stirred up about “morality issues”, like abortion and teh gays.

    The Catholic Church, for all the lousy stuff it has in its history, took care of the poor in many countries and here at home. I don’t know what has happened to it since the Reagan years and the one issue politics that turned it into a right wing rubber stamp, but to anyone who ever considered himself or herself a Catholic, it’s just one of the many reasons not to belong anymore.

  43. 43.

    Omnes Omnibus

    August 7, 2011 at 11:56 am

    With m_c here, I guess we should just figure that this thread has been jacked and move on.

    Edited slightly.

  44. 44.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 11:58 am

    @Head Bulshytt Talker in Chief of the Temple of Libertarianism(superluminar): no need to click over to Sully.
    You can read de Bore right here.
    Sully links de Bore alla time, like Kain, Douthat, and McArdle.

    ain’t we lucky?
    :)

  45. 45.

    ppcli

    August 7, 2011 at 12:02 pm

    @The Worst Person In the World:

    My god. What an absolutely horrible, callous, vicious person.
    ….It comforts me to know that inside he is likely a churning cauldron of insecurities.

    Naw. He’s a self-satisfied, hateful douchebag all the way down.

  46. 46.

    different church-lady

    August 7, 2011 at 12:04 pm

    Okay, I ain’t clicked on that yet, but just based on the poster frame I’m gonna guess that’s a pair of nitwit nobodies having a really stupid argument using webcams.

    In other words: no way on earth I’m wasting my time on that.

    Side note: I forget which front pager was saying he thought the way the “targeted” ads worked on Balloon Juice made sense, but here’s the ad attached to this page: “ChristianMingle.com: Find God’s Match for you™”

  47. 47.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 12:06 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: would you like to know how quranic interpretation works?
    Because i can explain it…its really pretty cool.

    i mean, instead of snarking about girls being burned up.

  48. 48.

    Anya

    August 7, 2011 at 12:07 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Heh, you know, you could’ve done that last night, when we were defenseless against mclaren’s rambling.

  49. 49.

    Omnes Omnibus

    August 7, 2011 at 12:08 pm

    @Anya: Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.

  50. 50.

    Chris

    August 7, 2011 at 12:09 pm

    Most of the Bishops of the Catholic Church are card-carrying, right-wing Republicans, so he won’t get a rebuke from that source.

    This despite the fact that aside from abortion and gay marriage, the official Catholic position on virtually everything else is liberal.

    The Catholic Church, for all the lousy stuff it has in its history, took care of the poor in many countries and here at home. I don’t know what has happened to it since the Reagan years and the one issue politics that turned it into a right wing rubber stamp, but to anyone who ever considered himself or herself a Catholic, it’s just one of the many reasons not to belong anymore.

    You’re telling me.

    In the U.S, I think the reason the Catholic Church was often inclined to be on the social justice bandwagon is that Catholicism and Catholics have historically been treated like shit. Economically, a ton of them were part of the underclass (especially in urban areas), and socially – all that “creeping Islamization” shit you hear people whining about today? Same thing was done to Catholics all through the nineteenth century. Ergo the Catholics had good reason to be on the side of the poor and downtrodden – that’s what most of them were.

    On the other hand, once they integrated in the mid-20th century, a lot of them were perfectly happy to change sides. IGMFY.

  51. 51.

    befuggled

    August 7, 2011 at 12:09 pm

    @Samara Morgan: So why do the Shia and the Sunni use the hadith differently? Why do the Quranists reject it altogether? Why do sects like the Ibadi and the Quranists exist? Why do the Quranists reject the hadith? Why have fringe movements like Ahmadiyya and Yazdanism exist?

  52. 52.

    jwb

    August 7, 2011 at 12:12 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: I’ll try to keep my trap shut next time.

  53. 53.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 12:18 pm

    @jwb: you rubbed the lamp.
    :)

  54. 54.

    Villago Delenda Est

    August 7, 2011 at 12:19 pm

    @befuggled:

    Because everything this foul wench spouts is utter bullshit.

    If Islam is “proselytization proof” as she claims, why do the Saudi religious police even bother to stop Christians from trying? Supposedly, you can’t even attempt it because it’s hermetically sealed or something.

    She doesn’t even grasp that the totalitarian theocracy of the KSA has to enforce their edicts, they don’t just magically happen because Islam is “memetically sealed” or some similar bullshit.

  55. 55.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 12:22 pm

    @befuggled: im sorry, but im a mevlevi sufi, and not trained as an islamic scholar. i can really only answer detailed questions about my own sect.
    :)

    may i suggest Ask an Imam? or google works too.
    :)

  56. 56.

    aimai

    August 7, 2011 at 12:23 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    Fuck off and die. No, really. Lots of people here know exactly how quranic interpretation works. Yes. We do. Its not a mystery. KNowing that doesn’t excuse the specific state sponsored guardians of the faith in Saudi from the fact that they did, in fact, drive school girls back into a burning building to die rather than allow them out. Interpretations, misinterpretations, or horrendous errors of judgement– Christianity and Islam and Judaism have ’em. But there’s no excusing the actual repression and murder of girls and women under Wahabi Islam.

    aimai

  57. 57.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 12:29 pm

    @aimai:

    Fuck off and die.

    awww that is not very xian of you.

    i was going to explain the concept of mutawatir, but since you know it all already….

  58. 58.

    Chris

    August 7, 2011 at 12:30 pm

    im sorry, but im a mevlevi sufi, and not trained as an islamic scholar. i can really only answer detailed questions about my own sect.

    Then you should probably stick to Mevlevi Sufism and shut the fuck up about “Islam” in general instead of posing yourself as Balloon Juice’s final authority on all things Islamic.

    Interpretations, misinterpretations, or horrendous errors of judgement—Christianity and Islam and Judaism have ‘em. But there’s no excusing the actual repression and murder of girls and women under Wahabi Islam.

    I wonder sometimes what conservatives would think if they came across a conversation like this. After all, everyone knows that we’re all secret Muslims who hate Christianity and Judaism and make excuses for Islam because we really want to see Sharia Law in the United States.

  59. 59.

    West of the Rockies (formerly Frank W.)

    August 7, 2011 at 12:36 pm

    Yes, the guy appears to be a heartless jerk. Are we therefore to assume that all Catholics are heartless jerks? Is that your point? Would you have mentioned this person’s faith specifically if he were, say, Episcopalian or Presbyterian?

    I’ll probably take some heat for even asking. Please understand that I am not trying to specifically defend the faith or suggest that there aren’t plenty of Catholics who are jerks. We have enough evidence of the atrocities committed by some people in the name of this faith. (And other faiths, too!) And people who profess to be Christian (or deists of any variety, really) but who exhibit ass-holishness should be called out.

    I lapsed from Catholicism many years ago and am pretty agnostic these days. I probably would not feel so offended had you pointed out the jerk-factor of an Evangelical or Southern Baptist. I suppose this simply reveals my own prejudices.

    I guess it would just be nice to see a tiny acknowledgement that not all Catholics (or Southern Baptists, et al) are jerks.

    I get a little nervous when it appears that a whole group of people are being collectively (if subtly) painted as jerks.

    Okay, let ‘er rip.

  60. 60.

    Judas Escargot

    August 7, 2011 at 12:39 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    would you like to know how quranic interpretation works?

    The rich use it to rationalize their wealth. The poor use it to rationalize their poverty. The strong use it to justify their power. And the weak use it to blame some shadowy Other for all their problems.

    Just like any other religious text, really (e.g. the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or Atlas Shrugged).

    Islam in its current form dies when the oil runs out, BTW. I will enjoy watching that happen.

  61. 61.

    Freddie deBoer

    August 7, 2011 at 12:43 pm

    Yes, the guy appears to be a heartless jerk. Are we therefore to assume that all Catholics are heartless jerks?

    Nope.

    Is that your point?

    Nope.

    Would you have mentioned this person’s faith specifically if he were, say, Episcopalian or Presbyterian?

    Probably.

    We have enough evidence of the atrocities committed by some people in the name of this faith. (And other faiths, too!) And people who profess to be Christian (or deists of any variety, really) but who exhibit ass-holishness should be called out.

    Christianity’s most consistent and often expressed message in the New Testament– by pure numbers– is the need for charity. Even beyond the need to accept Christ. Tim Carney is a Christian, and indeed is deeply committed to that lifestyle. He writes often from the perspective of a conservative Christian. I am criticizing him for allowing that faith to inform his beliefs about abortion, etc., but not taking it seriously when it comes to Christ’s oft-repeated edict to be charitable, even if doing so hurts you personally.

    It’s all superstition to me; if people want to practice their religion in a way that doesn’t impose itself on others (or their uteruses), they should feel free. I find the specter of a Christian smirking at the victims of foreclosure at a time when foreclosures are devastating millions to be particularly egregious given the text of Jesus’s message.

    Don’t extrapolate my argument beyond its intended target.

  62. 62.

    Chris

    August 7, 2011 at 12:46 pm

    @ West of the Rockies,

    I haven’t read through the entire thread, but I’m also a lapsed Catholic in background and I didn’t find the original post offensive. He’s just pointing out that the guy’s a bastard who makes a mockery of Christian charity.

  63. 63.

    Stillwater

    August 7, 2011 at 12:47 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: And just yesterday I was telling my wife that the British don’t know how to riot…

    What’s that old expression: things will get worse before they get better?

  64. 64.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 12:51 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: why do the Saudi religious police even bother to stop Christians from trying?
    because they can. its the law. there is no freedom of speech or freedom of religion in KSA. you must be muslim to be a citizen.

  65. 65.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 12:51 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: why do the Saudi religious police even bother to stop Christians from trying?
    because they can. its the law. there is no freedom of speech or freedom of religion in KSA. you must be muslim to be a citizen.

  66. 66.

    stormhit

    August 7, 2011 at 1:01 pm

    @beltane:

    You don’t sound like a snobbish dickbag at all.

  67. 67.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 1:07 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Islam is “memetically sealed” or some similar bullshit.

    no, Islam is an uninvadable strategy in evo theory of games terminolgy.
    the Quran forbids proselytization of the poor and ignorant. Freedom of speech legalizes proselytization of everyone, including the poor and ignorant.
    so in countries where the rule of law is shariah, freedom of speech is illegal.
    in the US the rule of law is nominally secular, and mandates freedom of speech and freedom of religion religion. that is why Imam Rauf can build a mosque at ground zero even if 70% of americans oppose it, while rick warren cannot even go to mecca, let alone build a megachurch there. And at 4% of the electorate, muslims cannot impose a different rule of law in a representative republic.

    @Chris:well, you can ask Islam-questions of Amir Khalid. He is a maftoon, so im sure you will find his responses much more agreeable.

    Are we the only two muslims that follow BJ?

  68. 68.

    West of the Rockies (formerly Frank W.)

    August 7, 2011 at 1:10 pm

    Hey, Chris #62… Thanks for the response. Maybe I had my knickers in a bunch. I am not Catholic anymore. Yes, there are all too many Christians (of every variety, it seems to me) who are hypocrites. Let’s all continue to call them out.
    Perhaps, Freddie, I was extrapolating. Your post, however, struck me a bit like someone telling a story though that goes like this: “I know this guy (he’s gay) who used to go into stores and take a bite from a doughnut when no one was looking.”
    I DO suspect you mentioned the fact (specifically) that he’s Catholic because Carney so clearly self-proclaims this religious affiliation. I don’t know that I could tell a negative story about, say, Rick Warren without mentioning that he is an evangelical Christian. I suppose I could say (merely) that he is Christian.

    Maybe I’m just far too sensitive this morning and should pipe down.

  69. 69.

    Ceiling Jesus is Watching You

    August 7, 2011 at 1:12 pm

    Don’t muck up Jesus’ REAL message with some kind of liberal obfuscation about poor people! J. may have spent more time on charity and the poor and those types according to those so-called Gospels, but what about… sorry, I can’t think of a way to finish that sentence.
    But He means-tested every single leper he healed, and the others were placed in a high-risk pool (where they were drowned.) Matthew, Mark, and the other two liberal enablers may tell you about the whole feeding-the-multitude meme, but they don’t tell you that it was a highly successful Workfare scheme: the hill known as Golgotha was cleared of brush and litter and many new crosses were put up, serving as a deterrent to crimes against Roman government.
    PS– don’t have much faith in “Christian” conservatives. Raised in a VERY conservative Baptist household, where my Dad could always find “Biblical” justification for smiting those commie nigras. Chapter and verse. “Well, that’s what it says, but this is what it MEANS..”

  70. 70.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 1:13 pm

    @Judas Escargot: dont think so. in 20 years one out of four humans on the planet will be muslim.
    social media is changing the game.
    universalist religions like Islam and Buddhism can spread more easily over the interwebs than exclusivist religions like white (NHC) xianity.
    and of course, there is that differential reproductive rate.
    so Islam will spread memetically and genetically, in spite of peak oil.

    the uninvadable strategy of Islam is the reef that wrecked American Empire.
    we spent ourselves into beggery and we are gettin NOTHING for our 4.4 trillion dollahs.

  71. 71.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 1:20 pm

    @Freddie deBoer:

    to be particularly egregious given the text of Jesus’s message.

    what xians do pay attention to jesus’ message? im guessing liberal xians.
    xianity in America has been colonized by Randian economics and NHC white conservative nativism. The GOP is 99% white conservative xian.

    don’t act shocked.

  72. 72.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 1:28 pm

    @toujoursdan:

    Human beings are generally douchebags

    no, white (NHC) conservative christian nativists are generally douchebags.
    Glibertarians farming pageclicks are generally douchebags.
    But both sides are not the same, so dont impune all of homo sap when you are talking about xians and glibertarians.

  73. 73.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 1:31 pm

    @stormhit: sure she does. and so do i.
    im an elitist intellectual snob, and proud of it.

    you dumb cudlips wear me out.

  74. 74.

    Chris

    August 7, 2011 at 1:34 pm

    you dumb cudlips wear me out.

    And yet you keep coming back for more, more, more and more. Why? NO ONE’s keeping you here, and very few people will miss you if you stop lowering yourself by talking to dumb cudlips.

  75. 75.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 1:36 pm

    @Chris: je m’amuse.

    and i lurve it that i baited aimai into raging. she was one of Kains big supporters.
    perhaps its as simple as revenge?

  76. 76.

    Jay in Oregon

    August 7, 2011 at 1:41 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Because everything this foul wench spouts is utter bullshit.

    Really? Personally, I find myself agreeing with her opinion on pie.

  77. 77.

    Chris

    August 7, 2011 at 1:43 pm

    @Chris: je m’amuse.

    Et pour une fois, dans un français correct! Alors là, plus rien à dire.

  78. 78.

    Omnes Omnibus

    August 7, 2011 at 1:44 pm

    @Samara Morgan: You are a cretin. A pretentious pseudo-intellectual who would be out of her depth in a bathtub. Moreover, your self-righteousness would be amusing if it weren’t so sad.

  79. 79.

    Yutsano

    August 7, 2011 at 1:48 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: When one thinks they know all, they choose to remain ignorant of what they do not know. And she is behaving in a most un-Sufi like fashion. Arrogance is not considered a virtue.

  80. 80.

    Omnes Omnibus

    August 7, 2011 at 1:50 pm

    @Yutsano: You, sir, stuck me with a Kenny Chesney/Grace Potter earworm.

  81. 81.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 1:51 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: haha
    you just dont like what i say.
    im a third culture intellectual.
    i just reject everything you have been taught, everything you have studied, everything you believe.
    my real name is anathema.
    :)
    @Chris: merci mille fois por tous vos infinities de gentillesse, m’sieu.

  82. 82.

    Villago Delenda Est

    August 7, 2011 at 1:56 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    You don’t even see the internal contradictions in your ridiculous (in the true sense that they deserve to be ridiculed) assertions, do you?

    You are as much an authority on Islam as I am on quantum physics (I know how to spell it, and I’ve heard of Heisenberg, but that’s about it).

    If Islam is immune from proselytization, why do they need a religious police to prevent it? ANSWER THAT QUESTION!

    Obviously, they need some external reinforcement (like putting those who leave the fold, for whatever reason) like, I don’t know, killing them.

    Last time I checked, btw, it wasn’t the official policy of the US to try to convert Iraqis to Christianity en masse. It may have been the intention of some evangelical nutjobs, both military and civilian, but official US policy is we don’t give a rat’s ass about religion, per se. Has been, despite the bleating of the Christianist fundies, for 220 odd years.

  83. 83.

    Omnes Omnibus

    August 7, 2011 at 1:58 pm

    @Samara Morgan: Perhaps, but I would be willing to bet that in 20 years you will be an SUV driving soccer mom with utterly conventional views on everything. A tote-bagger with worries about the morals of “the kids today” and no memory of what it was like to be young.

    How do you like them apples?

  84. 84.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 1:58 pm

    @Yutsano: oh bulshytt….who are you to tell me how sufis should behave? how dare you?

    you ignorant assclown.
    this is how sufi’s behave.

    “Abd al-Halim Mahmud (1910-1978) is remembered as the former rector of al-Azhar who wrote a great deal on Sufism. He is referred to by his honorific title, ‘al-Ghazali, in 14th Century A.H.’2 , a title he was given because of his unique ability to integrate the exoteric and esoteric dimensions of Islam (which are often considered contradictory at first glance). He became influential in 1960-1970s, the Sadat period in which Islamic revivalism began its rise to prominence in Egypt.”
    __
    “Abd al-Halim presents tasawwuf as a scientific method that would enable people to comprehend the ultimate reality. The essence of tasawwuf is defined as knowledge (ma`rifa) of the metaphysical domain. Metaphysics is the science of explaining the hidden aspects of God and clarifying his prophecies. He emphasised its distinction of ‘mysticism’-he proposed that tasawwuf is not a mere superstitious method, but a field of science (Mahmud Al-Munqidh: 224-233). `Abd al-Halim cites `Abbas Mahmud al-`Aqqad (d. 1964) in saying that ma`rifa is an intellectual realm which neither physical science, cognition (fikr), nor various types of mental perception (basira etc.) have access to. Tasawwuf is the only science that can enter this realm, because although other sciences are bound to human capacity, tasawwuf is not (cited from ibid. 352-353).”
    __
    “Abd al-Halim’s Sufism consists of three elements-`ilm, jihad, and `ubudiya. First was `ilm, the knowledge of Islamic Law. He emphasizes the significance of living according to shari`a, and stipulates that Islamic Law is to be understood and practiced accordingly. Moreover, he cites Abu Hamid al-Ghazali’s work, which declares that God will bless those who acted according to their knowledge of Law-no matter how ignorant they might be-but would punish those who ignored the law irrespective of their knowledge4. Second is jihad, the effort to situate oneself within social reality and to solve the problems one faces. `Abd al-Halim’s ideal image of Sufi is not exemplified through the concept of ‘mystic’ (those who live in seclusion, practicing asceticism). He states rather that Sufi must be committed to solving the problems of the time, and gives the example of `Abd al-Qadir al-Jazai’rli (d.1883), who fought for the defence of Algeria against France (ibid. 15-16). Third is `ubudiya, servitude to God: being correct and devoted. When `ubudiya is attained, ma`rifa is granted, and God showers the believer with Mercy (ibid. 12)”.[1]

    im not some goofy sufi aesthete
    im a mevlevi.

    “Dance, when you’re broken open. Dance, if you’ve torn the bandage off. Dance in the middle of the fighting. Dance in your blood. Dance when you’re perfectly free.”
    — Rumi.

  85. 85.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 2:02 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    why do they need a religious police to prevent it?

    its PART of the immunity.
    look, xians believe that they have a RIGHT to be free to proselytize. muslims believe they have a RIGHT to be free from proselytization.

    it wasn’t the official policy of the US to try to convert Iraqis to Christianity en masse.

    not but COIN and the Bush Doctrine both attempt to convert Iraqis to westernstyle democracy with freedom of speech and freedom of religion.
    Fail.
    :)

  86. 86.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 2:07 pm

    @Yutsano: im a sufi, dude.

    Common people repent their sins, the Sufi repent from ignorance. –Zunnun

    note that says IGNORANCE…..not arrogane.
    lol!

  87. 87.

    Tzal

    August 7, 2011 at 2:10 pm

    The sabbath was yesterday.

  88. 88.

    Yutsano

    August 7, 2011 at 2:14 pm

    @Samara Morgan: The child persists in her error…and refuses to even contemplate what her error is. But then again, she is a child. You say the words, you do not understand them.

    @Omnes Omnibus: I have worse ones. Don’t make me get into some of the more obscure Allison Krauss. :)

  89. 89.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 2:16 pm

    Note VDE is all hot-n-bothered that xians cant get to KSA and preach. the mutaween are part of the defense against proselytization.
    VDE presents as another xian busybody that wants to tell people what to do.
    Because that is what proselytizing is.
    You don’t like it when the New Atheists do it to you, do you?

    its the same thing. fuck off godbothering jesushumpers. we dont give a shit if you want to believe in the jesus godhead. you are people of the book.
    but we care a lot that you want to make us believe it too.

  90. 90.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 2:19 pm

    @Yutsano:

    You say the words, you do not understand them.

    lol of course i do!

    i unnerstand you as well.

    man cannot acquire what he cannot use.

  91. 91.

    Omnes Omnibus

    August 7, 2011 at 2:23 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    Otto: Apes don’t read philosphy.
    Wanda: Yes, they do, Otto. They just don’t understand it.

  92. 92.

    Corner Stone

    August 7, 2011 at 2:24 pm

    @Yutsano: I like Allison Krauss. I have a couple awesome bluegrass DVD’s with her on them, performing and/or narrating.

    And fwiw, your denunciation seems pretty arrogant as well.

  93. 93.

    drkrick

    August 7, 2011 at 2:37 pm

    The Catholic Church, for all the lousy stuff it has in its history, took care of the poor in many countries and here at home. I don’t know what has happened to it since the Reagan years and the one issue politics that turned it into a right wing rubber stamp …

    The soon-to-be-sainted John Paul II. Unfortunately, his quite admirable anti-communism was packaged with the a lot of hostility to what he considered associated causes like modernism.

  94. 94.

    Uncle Clarence Thomas

    August 7, 2011 at 2:39 pm

    .
    .
    Good one, Freddie, that’s like having a Christian president.
    .
    .

  95. 95.

    Amir Khalid

    August 7, 2011 at 3:04 pm

    @Samara Morgan:
    Is “anathema” going to be your next nym?

    You seem to think that I claim to be an authority on Islam just because I’m Muslim myself. I try not to be so arrogant. I make no claim of scholarly authority on any subject but episodes of The X-Files.

    The differences you see between Christianity and Islam, and between Christians and Muslims, puzzle me. You must know that both are Abrahamic faiths that have much in common with each other and with Judaism. Take the example at hand: Tim Carney’s heartlessness toward the poor is every bit as unbecoming for a Muslim as for the Christian he says he is. And pride, such as boasting about one’s own intellectual superiority, is a sin in any faith.

    You also hold Saudi Arabia up as some kind of perfect realization of the Islamic state. It is nothing of the sort. It is a medieval kingdom, socially backward and in many ways deeply un-Islamic, just as the medieval kingdoms of Europe were socially backward and in many ways deeply un-Christian. And it is trying to survive, in the 21st century, on the rapidly depleting fortune it won in the natural resources lottery.

  96. 96.

    Corner Stone

    August 7, 2011 at 3:11 pm

    @Amir Khalid:

    I make no claim of scholarly authority on any subject but episodes of The X-Files.

    So wtf happened that episode where Scully’s father passed away and he appeared to her in her room? I think in a rocking chair.
    She woke up and saw him, spoke out to him, then got the call.
    WTF was that?

  97. 97.

    Yutsano

    August 7, 2011 at 3:15 pm

    @Amir Khalid: This could be fun. After all she questions your Islam in the first place, which is not her place.

    And it is trying to survive, in the 21st century, on the rapidly depleting fortune it won in the natural resources lottery.

    And their feeble attempts to confront that reality are being met with resistance and contempt. But once the oil’s gone all they will have is trophy cities in the desert and a growing population in poverty. This won’t end well.

    PS: At some point I have to tell her I’m Baha’i. That could get even more entertaining.

  98. 98.

    Rathskeller

    August 7, 2011 at 3:17 pm

    @Amir Khalid: please write more often. (Not necessarily about the X-Files.)

  99. 99.

    mpbruss

    August 7, 2011 at 3:20 pm

    @Amir Khalid:

    It’s worth mentioning that both Christianity and Islam also view Jesus as a legitimate prophet of God, even though Islam does not recognize him as the Son of God. With that in mind, something he said:

    “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.”

    In other words, don’t feed the troll.

  100. 100.

    Corner Stone

    August 7, 2011 at 3:27 pm

    @Amir Khalid: Your underscore lent you so much credibility.

  101. 101.

    Judas Escargot

    August 7, 2011 at 3:41 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    dont think so. in 20 years one out of four humans on the planet will be muslim.

    Dwindling oil (and therefore capital). Inferior tech level. Inability to advance past tribal/clan-based culture even after a century of immeasurable wealth. Populations concentrated in either deserts or tropical coastlines (neither of which will fare well as the climate worsens).

    Those poor unfortunates will be too busy killing each other off over what’s left of the arable land and water to trouble the rest of the world very much.

  102. 102.

    Jamey

    August 7, 2011 at 3:51 pm

    Okay, death squads it is, then.

    Who’s with me?

  103. 103.

    Amir Khalid

    August 7, 2011 at 3:56 pm

    @Corner Stone:
    You’re asking about Beyond The Sea, from season 1. (It’s said to be the one where Gillian Anderson saved her job — Fox wanted to recast Scully, it was said — with a truly awesome acting performance.)

    That, of course, was the Captain’s ghost, not the man himself, appearing in Dana’s armchair. William Scully Sr. was, at that moment, in an ER dying of a massive coronary, and his spirit was reaching out to his baby girl one last time.

    Scully’s grief for her dead father, and her desire to communicate with him, somehow become known to Luther Boggs (Brad Dourif) the condemned serial killer who claims to be a clairvoyant, and wants his death sentence commuted in return for assistance in a kidnapping case involving an old accomplice.

    The battle of wits and will between Scully and Boggs, with bravura performances from the veteran Dourif and the then-unknown Anderson, makes Beyond The Sea one of the show’s most memorable episodes.

  104. 104.

    Omnes Omnibus

    August 7, 2011 at 3:56 pm

    @Jamey: Quoi?

  105. 105.

    Chris

    August 7, 2011 at 3:59 pm

    Amir –

    I’m only a casual X-Files viewer, but just one question since you’re into that: any idea if they’re releasing another movie next year? If memory serves, the Alien Invasion was supposed to happen in 2012 and they never wrapped up that story arc, so you’d think next year would be ideal for another mytharc movie.

  106. 106.

    Omnes Omnibus

    August 7, 2011 at 4:02 pm

    @Amir Khalid: Damn, I am impressed.

  107. 107.

    Amir Khalid

    August 7, 2011 at 4:09 pm

    @Corner Stone:
    But I look so much younger without it.

  108. 108.

    Corner Stone

    August 7, 2011 at 4:11 pm

    @Amir Khalid:

    The battle of wits and will between Scully and Boggs, with bravura performances from the veteran Dourif and the then-unknown Anderson, makes Beyond The Sea one of the show’s most memorable episodes.

    The probably most “bravura” part of that battle was that Scully needed to believe him so desparately it was etched on every fiber of her being.
    But she turned her back on him and allowed (?) him to be executed nonetheless.

  109. 109.

    Villago Delenda Est

    August 7, 2011 at 4:11 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    Note VDE is all hot-n-bothered that xians cant get to KSA and preach. the mutaween are part of the defense against proselytization.
    VDE presents as another xian busybody that wants to tell people what to do.
    Because that is what proselytizing is.

    The mindnumbing, read into it whatever you want to stupid of M-C BURNS.

    If Islam is so fucking proselytization bulletproof, then they should have no fear of any Christian sect trying to convert them. Because if what you say is true, it bounces right off, without the Saudi religious secret police standing over their shoulder with a scimitar waiting to lob off the heads of any apostate that might be created.

    And for the record, it’s not my position that allowing Christians to proselytize in KSA or anywere else in the mid east, I’m just commenting on the very obvious insecurity of the Wahabbists that someone might steal members of their flocks away from them.

    And for the record, ignorant slut, if you’d bothered to ever read any of my posts, I’m no friend to evangelical Christians. Their fucked up invisible sky buddy worship is abhorrent to FSM, may you be smited in a hail of meatballs and Italian sausage.

  110. 110.

    Corner Stone

    August 7, 2011 at 4:15 pm

    @Amir Khalid: Too young to have attained sufficient scholarship on a series from the ’90’s!
    Heretic!!

  111. 111.

    Amir Khalid

    August 7, 2011 at 4:30 pm

    @Chris:
    I too would love to see that movie. I want to see Mulder and Scully reunited with their son William, or at least learn that he is thriving with the farm couple who adopted him. I want to see what became of the syndicate they defeated back in season 6, now that the aliens they were going to sell out to are no longer coming. But given the underwhelming box-office performance of The X-Files: I Want To Believe in 2008, that seems unlikely.

    I blame 20th Century Fox for bungling the marketing and release strategy for the movie, which was an outstanding Monster Of The Week episode and more intelligent than the first movie, The X-Files: Fight the Future. Something possessed Fox to release I Want To Believe, a modestly-budgeted movie with a winter setting, in the summer blockbuster season, a week before Warner’s big Batman movie.

  112. 112.

    Chris

    August 7, 2011 at 4:34 pm

    @Amir Khalid:

    Shows how much I know: I didn’t realize the aliens they were going to sell out to were gone, thought they were still coming back (hence the question about that movie). What changed?

  113. 113.

    Amir Khalid

    August 7, 2011 at 4:51 pm

    @Corner Stone:
    Oh, Luther Boggs was always going to be executed. Indeed, When Scully goes to see the Governor of North Carolina, he is adamant on that point.

    She declines to come to Boggs’ execution and receive the message he says he got from her father, but not because she doesn’t believe him in the end. She does; however, she realizes she doesn’t really need to hear any message from her father: as unhappy as he was over her joining the FBI, she tells Mulder, Ahab never stopped being her father.

    There’s an inversion of the show’s usual dynamic: this time, it’s Scully who desperately wants to believe and Mulder who doesn’t believe, despite Mulder’s general acceptance of the paranormal.

  114. 114.

    Amir Khalid

    August 7, 2011 at 5:11 pm

    @Chris:
    The invading aliens bugged out at the end of the mid-season 6 two-parter, Two Fathers/One Son, to the lamentations of the Cigarette-Smoking Man.

    Chris Carter shut down the invasion as part of a winding down of the show, which he wanted to conclude with season 7. But that season was a bad one for the Fox network; all their new shows died in the ratings. So they made Carter carry on for another two unsatisfying seasons.

  115. 115.

    Chris

    August 7, 2011 at 5:22 pm

    @Amir Khalid:

    Thanks.

    See, I did remember the Syndicate getting destroyed in that episode. I just didn’t realize that the alien threat had gone with it.

  116. 116.

    Djur

    August 7, 2011 at 5:42 pm

    @Judas Escargot: Yep, I’m sure after Indonesia’s massive oil wealth is depleted (#21 in the list of top oil producing countries! #1 in Muslim population!) their religious traditions will fall into disarray. As will those of Pakistan (#59 and #2).

    Saudi Arabia has 2% of the world Muslim population. The entire Middle East is 20%. It’s a basic logic error that Westerners think of oil-rich Arabs when they think of Islam.

  117. 117.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 6:27 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    they should have no fear

    But they have no fear.
    And neither will they tolerate Proselytizers.

    Article 10 of the Declaration states: “Islam is the religion of unspoiled nature. It is prohibited to exercise any form of compulsion on man or to exploit his poverty or ignorance in order to convert him to another religion or to atheism.”

    i dont know how much simpler i can make this. Shariah forbids proselytization of the poor and ignorant. Freedom of speech legalizes proselytization of the poor and ignorant. Therefore Islam and missionary democracy with freedom of speech ARE INCOMPATIBLE.

    This is empirically true. 10 years, 4.4 trillion dollars and 7k dead american soljahs, Iraq is still 97% muslim, A-stan is still 99% muslim.
    Where are the converts?
    there are none.
    and Iraq is planting a boot in America’s fat white judeoxian ass in December.
    they wont be our client state, or even an ally.
    They are going to sue us for reparations.

  118. 118.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 6:33 pm

    @Amir Khalid: no i do not, maftoon.
    KSA is just another client state of Unjust America, a monarchy like Jordan and Yemen that America props because of oil interests..
    I think it would be supercool if al-Islam could incorporate freedom of speech and freedom of religion. But that cannot happen in this slice of spacetime.

    Do you know why?

    Do you understand the concept of mutawatir?

  119. 119.

    Villago Delenda Est

    August 7, 2011 at 6:36 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    And neither will they tolerate Proselytizers.

    They obviously are scared shitless, just as the Christianist fundamentalist types are frightened of science.

    If their faith was so strong, they wouldn’t need to threaten death to enforce it.

    They are afraid that their flock will desert them if they do not threaten death for apostasy.

    I find their lack of faith disturbing.

  120. 120.

    Corner Stone

    August 7, 2011 at 6:38 pm

    @Amir Khalid: Yes, I agree. It’s the inversion that makes this one of the more memorable episodes.

  121. 121.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 6:39 pm

    @Judas Escargot: argue with Pew, not me.

    Over the next two decades, the worldwide Muslim population is forecast to grow at about twice the rate of the non-Muslim population – an average annual growth rate of 1.5% for Muslims compared with 0.7% for non-Muslims. If current trends continue, Muslims will make up 26.4% of the world’s total projected population of 8.3 billion in 2030, up from 23.4% of the estimated 2010 world population of 6.9 billion.

    what you think doesnt matter.
    data matters.

  122. 122.

    Corner Stone

    August 7, 2011 at 6:40 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    If their faith was so strong, they wouldn’t need to threaten death to enforce it.

    They are afraid because they are authoritarians, and depend on their perceived legitimacy to continue to rule.
    Just like all authoritarians, it has nothing to do with their faith. Because they have none.

  123. 123.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 6:41 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: you do not understand theoretical population genetics, evo theory of culture or evolutionary theory of games.
    so be it.

  124. 124.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 6:42 pm

    @Corner Stone: again, they are not afraid.
    Muslims believe freedom from proselytization is a human right.

  125. 125.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 6:45 pm

    @Amir Khalid: so you can answer my question, brother.
    is freedom of speech compatible with shariah law?

  126. 126.

    Yutsano

    August 7, 2011 at 6:46 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    KSA is just another client state of Unjust America, a monarchy like Jordan and Yemen that America props because of oil interests..

    LOLwut? Jordan has barely enough oil to export anywhere. Same with Yemen. Jordan was just the first kingdom to figure out Israel wasn’t going anywhere and chose to accept reality. Jordan is also on a course to educate their populace and embrace more Western ideas. And their kingdom gains legitimacy because of the claim of direct descent from the Prophet. We didn’t do very much with Jordan until after the Yom Kippur war and Hussein finally making peace with Israel. The kingdom existed long before that happened. Again, basic factual errors.

  127. 127.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 6:51 pm

    @Yutsano: oh, sry, mispoke.
    Jordan has a FUCKING BORDER WITH ISRAEL.
    that is why America propped Mubarek for 30 years.
    Yemen has al-Q enclaves in the desert that we want to wipe out.
    America has two interests in MENA that shape all our policy– protecting the Israelinazis and sukking up oil.

  128. 128.

    Corner Stone

    August 7, 2011 at 6:55 pm

    @Samara Morgan: Of course they are afraid. All corrupt regimes are.

  129. 129.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 6:55 pm

    The Arab Spring is coming to Jordan too, Yut.
    descent from the Prophet is no defense anymore.
    And being an American client state delegitimizes those regimes that get propped by America.
    its just a matter of time.
    :)

    After the Arab Spring….the American Fall.

  130. 130.

    Chris

    August 7, 2011 at 6:59 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    I find their lack of faith disturbing.

    You just made a friend for life with that reference.

  131. 131.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 7:02 pm

    @Corner Stone: you really do not understand either.

    quranic interpretation relys on mutawatir…that means…sending, in continuous transmission, unbroken transmission.
    as long as there 150000 missionaries with guns in MENA, the injuction against proselytizing cannot go out of mutawatir…the defense against proselytizing is still relevant, still sending.
    so Islam cannot have a “reformation” and embrace freedom of speech and freedom of religion.
    it is a reaction.
    if westerners want al-Islam to “modernize” they should leave, and wait to be invited back.

  132. 132.

    Chris

    August 7, 2011 at 7:02 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    They are afraid because they are authoritarians, and depend on their perceived legitimacy to continue to rule.

    A quote from a guy in the State Department that I kept handy:

    “Religious fundamentalists are united by fear. Whether they are Christian, Muslim or Jew, fear is the common denominator. They fear change, modernization, and loss of influence. They fear that the young will abandon the churches, mosques and synagogues for physical and material gratification. They fear the influence of mass media and its ability to subvert the young with song, dance, fashion, alcohol, drugs, sex, and freedom. They especially fear education if it undermines the teachings of their religion. They fear a future they can’t control, or even comprehend.”

    Pretty good summary of the whole phenomenon.

  133. 133.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 7:10 pm

    @Chris: the tyrants exploit Islam to stay in power. Like Qaddafi draping photo-op coffins in green, the color of Islam.
    i have often wondered if Sully knows green is the color of al-Islam……its also the color of Hamas and Hizb’.

    it doesnt matter what you think– you are powerless.
    Islam is an uninvadable strategy.
    missionary democracy with freedom of speech cannot penetrate it.
    this is empirically true.

    bi la kayfah

  134. 134.

    Corner Stone

    August 7, 2011 at 7:10 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    so Islam cannot have a “reformation” and embrace freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

    No one cares. Least of all the “rulers” of those Islamic countries.
    They do not want a reformation, an enlightening, a change, a smidge or a smudge.
    They couldn’t give a shit less about their population, their faith or their Islamic religion.
    They mean to rule, by any means necessary. That’s the end. Period.
    You’re an ignorant fool if you think this is about Islam or being a Muslim.
    It’s not.

  135. 135.

    Yutsano

    August 7, 2011 at 7:12 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    Islam is an uninvadable strategy

    Read about Baha’u’llah some time. Then get back to me.

  136. 136.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 7:13 pm

    @Corner Stone: of course not. its about the desperate attempt of a failing regional hegemon to hang onto power.
    That is why America propped monarchs in KSA and Jordan, and propped tyrants like Mubarek and the Shah.

    Im just explaining why there are no converts to missionary democracy in Iraq and A-stan.
    :)

  137. 137.

    Chris

    August 7, 2011 at 7:24 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    Oh, sweet Jesus, drop it with the fucking “missionary democracy” shit already. You’re talking about the same people who’ve been in bed the Saudi regime and those similar to it for decades: you expect me to believe they gave a flying fuck about freedom of speech, turning people Christian or any of the crap you put under the “missionary democracy” umbrella you just made up? It was rhetoric for the masses and nothing else.

  138. 138.

    Amir Khalid

    August 7, 2011 at 7:31 pm

    @Samara Morgan:
    As bad as things were in both Iraq and Afghanistan before te US invasions, there was no widespread crisis of faith among Muslims in either country. That fact, not any designed-in immunity of Islam or Muslims to conversion, is why any Christian evangelists helicoptering in would have been disappointed at the lack of questing souls just waiting to be brought to Jesus.

    As Villago Delenda Est notes (#82), converting Muslims to Christianity was never an actual objective of either invasion. Al-Qa’ida was successfully routed from Afghanistan, true. But otherwise the invasions failed to achieve the strategic and political aims so poorly thought out by the Bush 43 administration. Neither country’s population is happy to see GIs garrisoned in its midst, which was an objective of the invasions.

    The new Iraq has to get along with its neighbors, Iran included, even if America doesn’t like them. Afghanistan is a largely failed state whose main export is heroin. It is never going to be fixed with bullets, its own or America’s. Those are the realities America needs to deal with by getting out, as it works out a wiser approach there and in the Middle East as a whole.

  139. 139.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 7:32 pm

    @Yutsano: its from the book.
    Evolution and the Theory of Games.
    you are being irrelevant.

  140. 140.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 7:34 pm

    @Amir Khalid: just answer the question brother.
    is freedom of speech compatible with shariah law?

  141. 141.

    Amir Khalid

    August 7, 2011 at 7:45 pm

    @Samara Morgan:
    Needless to say, I’m not convinced by your argument that freedom of speech, because it allows non-Muslims to evangelize among the ummah, is incompatible with Islam. Do you know of any Muslim country where the general populace (not the ruling elite) doesn’t want freedom of speech? I thought the lesson to be drawn from the Arab Spring, and from the Green demonstrations in Iran, was that Muslims do want it.

    I see no reason why freedom of speech should be incompatible with Shariah law.

  142. 142.

    Judas Escargot

    August 7, 2011 at 8:57 pm

    @Djur:

    Saudi Arabia has 2% of the world Muslim population. The entire Middle East is 20%. It’s a basic logic error that Westerners think of oil-rich Arabs when they think of Islam.

    Al Jazeera’s out of Qatar, not Jakarta: The reason Westerners commit the ‘basic logic error’ is that the oil kingdoms, with all that wealth, currently dominate Islam. One the oil’s gone, that distorting influence disappears.

    There will still be people praying in the general direction of Mecca centuries from now. But Saudi sects like Wahabbi won’t be driving the dialog, any more than they did under the Ottomans or in India under the English.

    IMO, those regions will be too embroiled in their own local issues to be an expansionist threat to anyone else.

  143. 143.

    Judas Escargot

    August 7, 2011 at 9:02 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    data matters.

    I agree completely.

  144. 144.

    Chris

    August 7, 2011 at 9:25 pm

    @Judas Escargot:

    There will still be people praying in the general direction of Mecca centuries from now. But Saudi sects like Wahabbi won’t be driving the dialog, any more than they did under the Ottomans or in India under the English.

    Exactly this.

    At least part of the reason for the radicalization in both Christianity and Islam is simple money. The Saudis finance the creation and operation of mosques preaching their particular brand of Islam, crowding out any different denomination wherever they can. Same thing American mega-churches have done for years.

    Take America and Saudi Arabia’s obscene wealth out of the equation, and the sorts of radicalism we’re seeing right now will take a big hit. And at least in Saudi Arabia’s case, we know that wealth is going to run out the minute the oil does.

  145. 145.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 10:05 pm

    @Amir Khalid: because IT IS,
    the Quran forbids proselytization of the poor and ignorant.
    Do you agree?
    Freedom of speech LEGALIZES proselytization of the poor and ignorant, along with everyone else.

    Do you know of any Muslim country where the general populace (not the ruling elite) doesn’t want freedom of speech?

    yes. pakistan. egypt. turkey.
    turkey tries to vote in shariah every two years.

    Pakistanis support harsh punishments for apostasy. So do Egyptians. Indonesia has blasphemey laws. Iraq has shariah in the constitution.

    I see no reason why freedom of speech should be incompatible with Shariah law.

    really? how about freedom of speech legalizes proselytization of the poor and ignorant? How about the Quran? How about shariah law and islamic jurisprudence?
    the reason this is IMPORTANT, is that “democracy promotion” could never work.
    when muslims are DEMOCRATICALLY empowered to vote, they vote for shariah.
    so missionary democracy with freedom of speech is impossible to implant/stand-up/spread/etc.
    it cant be done.
    and the EMPIRICAL data supports this.
    10 years, 4.4 trillion dollars, 7k dead soldiers– there are NO CONVERTS TO MISSIONARY DEMOCRACY.
    Because of the consent of the governed.

  146. 146.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 10:08 pm

    @Chris:

    the sorts of radicalism we’re seeing right now will take a big hit

    bulshytt. the Arab Spring is fueled by students and islamists. its primed by social media.
    want to stop islamic terrorism?
    GTFO MENA, Big White Christian Bwana.

  147. 147.

    Villago Delenda Est

    August 7, 2011 at 10:10 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    theoretical population genetics, evo theory of culture or evolutionary theory of games.

    It’s painfully obvious that you don’t have the slightest clue about projection, on the other hand.

  148. 148.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 10:25 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: look. im sorry but muslims dont want jesus-humper democracy.
    i know its hurrts your fee fees, but when muslims are DEMOCRATICALLY empowered to vote, they vote for more Islam, not less, and they never vote for missionary democracy with freedom of speech.
    Muslims like Islam. that is why they are muslims.
    So COIN and the BD simply cannot work….spreading or promoting westernstyle democracy can never work in majority muslim nations.

    and its sundown.
    i have to go eat something.

    ramadan kareem!

  149. 149.

    Chris

    August 7, 2011 at 10:38 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    Makoto, you’re aware that that term “missionary democracy” you’ve been tossing around for months doesn’t actually mean shit, right? That it’s a term you made up so you could randomly attack Christianity, secularism, and free speech all in a single go, right? You’re aware that you’re arguing against phantoms that exist only in your own mind, right? Hell, you’re aware that most of the people on this website are not Christian and that it makes your constant whining about Christian proselytism even weirder, right?

    What the fuck are you talking about? Who the fuck, WHAT the fuck are you arguing against? Seriously.

  150. 150.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 10:51 pm

    @Chris: lawl.
    i defined missionary democracy. its westernstyle democracy with freedom of speech and freedom of religion.
    im not attacking free speech.
    i think it would be great if Islam adopted freedom of speech and freedom of religion.
    im telling you why it cannot be done.
    and yes, Islam evolved to be immune to xian proselytization– but that made Islam immune to all kinds of proselytization…including COIN style missionary democracy.

    i think all kinds of proselytizing are bad, not just xian. But the Bush Doctrine and COIN are ridickkulously ignorant.
    Because when muslims are democratically empowered to vote, they vote for Islam.

  151. 151.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 10:56 pm

    @Amir Khalid:

    I see no reason why freedom of speech should be incompatible with Shariah law.

    i really shouldnt have to explain this to a fellow muslim.
    shariah law is quranic exegesis, right? the message of the Noble Quran made into law. if something is outlawed in the Generous Quran it is outlawed in shariah, in islamic jurisprudence.
    The Quran outlaws the proselytization of the poor and ignorant. freedom of speech legalizes the proselytization of everyone, including the poor and ignorant.
    is that so hard to understand for a muslim?

  152. 152.

    Villago Delenda Est

    August 7, 2011 at 11:09 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    If they don’t want it, then why are they so fucking afraid of it? I mean, really. They show all the same sense of faith that fundie Christians do by backing nonsense like “Intelligent Design” and parading guys with PhDs in everything but biology to support it?

    It’s fairly obvious to me that attempts to convert Muslims into Christians will fail, because I think most Muslims are happy with the religion they’ve got, and many just treat it, like a lot of nominal Jews and Christians do, as a cultural thing, not a heavy spiritual thing. There are plenty non-fanatical Muslims around who are less than orthodox in all their observances.

    But it’s certainly not because of some imagined “proselytization immunity” that has to be reinforced by religious police. Which means it doesn’t have a built in immunity at all…because the Imams are concerned enough about even the possibility of Christianity making inroads to be proactive in suppressing it.

    They’d be smarter to be more concerned about the liberating effects of secular western culture than non-Muslims praying to Jeebus in houses in the suburbs of Riyadh. But, being authoritarian assholes, much like the gang praying for something in Houston the other day, they stomp on everything not of their tribe.

  153. 153.

    Chris

    August 7, 2011 at 11:10 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    its westernstyle democracy with freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

    Not only, though, because for some reason you also keep whining about a Christian component to the whole thing.

    But the Bush Doctrine and COIN are ridickkulously ignorant.

    The Bush administration redefined ignorance (at least for a little while until the teabaggers came along). But you’re equally ignorant if you think they anything they did was about installing freedom of speech and freedom of religion in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    The “bringing democracy” was shiny feel-good crap for the masses (most of which they didn’t even start talking about until other casus bellis, like WMDs and al-Qaeda, had fallen through). And you taking it seriously confuses rhetoric with reality.

  154. 154.

    Samara Morgan

    August 7, 2011 at 11:45 pm

    @Chris: the relevant part of the Bush Doctrine.

    a policy of spreading democracy around the world, especially in the Middle East, as a strategy for combating terrorism;

    COIN is just the BD cut down to village size.
    the Bush admin planned on making Iraq into a client state or ally to preserve American influence in the ME. That is why they built the three largest airbases ever on foreign soil (which we do not get to keep), and a one billion dollah embassy complex (which we cant even protect with troops under the terms of the SOFA).

    but as i keep saying, islamic culture is an uninvadable strategy.
    and the problem with “spreading [missionary] democracy”, is that when muslims are DEMOCRATICALLY empowered to vote, they vote for more Islam, not less, and NEVAH for missionary democracy with freedom of speech.
    see how that works? moar democracy == moar islam.

    its against their religion.
    tee-hee.

  155. 155.

    Corner Stone

    August 7, 2011 at 11:54 pm

    ramadan hakeem

  156. 156.

    Chris

    August 8, 2011 at 12:04 am

    @Samara Morgan:

    And yet again, you just wrote in the word “missionary” in front of “democracy” to make the Bush doctrine say what you want it to say, with nothing to back up that analysis.

    Nothing in that sentence suggests that freedom of speech or allowing proselytism was a priority for the coalition. Heck, half our NATO allies have restrictions on freedom of speech (Holocaust denial, anti-semitism and support for the Nazis).

  157. 157.

    Samara Morgan

    August 8, 2011 at 12:08 am

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    the liberating effects of secular western culture

    AMG you are thick.
    western culture cant get in. like i just explained to Chris, moar democracy== moar islam.
    sure the tyrants, monarchs, and assorted dictators that America propped for the last 50 years are afraid of democracy.
    the mullahs and the imams and shayyks and ayatollahs arent afraid.
    the mutaween arent afraid….they are doing their jobs.
    its a RELIGIOUS belief.

    how do you change a religious belief?
    you cant.
    and the proof is 10 years, 4.4 trillion taxpayer dollahs and 7k dead soldiers later there are no converts to western culture.
    none, zip, nada, zero.
    we are gettin KICKED OUT of Iraq and they wanna sue the US for reparations.

  158. 158.

    Samara Morgan

    August 8, 2011 at 12:13 am

    @Chris: its my definition. like Distributed Jesusland™ is MY definition for the paradox of libertarianism.
    if you prefer ill just call it westernstyle democracy with freedom of speech.
    because that is what it is.. i think missionary democracy makes it easier to understand, but i dont relly care.
    classic hellenic democracy has nothing about free speech or freedom of religion.
    it just the consent of the governed.

  159. 159.

    Chris

    August 8, 2011 at 12:20 am

    @Samara Morgan:

    if you prefer ill just call it westernstyle democracy with freedom of speech.

    It doesn’t matter what you call it, since it’s a concept you made up.

    Now explain to me which part of the Bush doctrine made freedom of speech, especially as regards proselytism (since according to your repeated speeches that’s the stumbling bloc) a priority, even a low priority, of the Iraq and Afghanistan invasion.

  160. 160.

    Samara Morgan

    August 8, 2011 at 12:20 am

    @Chris: do you deny that democracy in that sentence means westernstyle democracy with freedom of speech?
    thought not.
    That fucking WEC retard Bush thought “spreading” westernstyle democracy would stop terrorism.

    what a maroon.

    Nothing in that sentence suggests that freedom of speech or allowing proselytism was a priority for the coalition.

    of course not. but freedom of speech is a PART of westernstyle democracy.
    And freedom of speech legalizes proselytization, while shariah forbids it. In a 97% muslim nation, which meme is going to be successful?

    so what exactly was the mission, Chris….if it wasnt nationbuilding or democracy promotion?
    hmmmmm?

  161. 161.

    Samara Morgan

    August 8, 2011 at 12:24 am

    @Chris:

    Now explain to me which part of the Bush doctrine made freedom of speech

    a policy of spreading democracy around the world, especially in the Middle East

    wallah…you are saying Bush’s vision of democracy DIDN’T have freedom of speech? LOL.

    soo…..what was the mission then Chris? what was the mission?

  162. 162.

    Chris

    August 8, 2011 at 12:30 am

    @Samara Morgan:

    do you deny that democracy in that sentence means westernstyle democracy with freedom of speech?

    YES, you dumb fucking bitch. Where’s YOUR proof that the word “democracy” means “westernstyle democracy with freedom of speech?”

    of course not. but freedom of speech is a PART of westernstyle democracy.

    Really? Is that why half of Europe maintains a ban on Holocaust denial? Or are you now ruling that half of Europe doesn’t count as “westernstyle democracy”? Cultural sensitivities lead to suspension of free speech all over the West itself, or hadn’t you noticed?

  163. 163.

    Chris

    August 8, 2011 at 12:34 am

    @Samara Morgan:

    soo…..what was the mission then Chris? what was the mission?

    To make it look like he was on top of things after the 9/11 attacks, for one thing, and to give his buddies in Halliburton and elsewhere a bunch of nice oil contracts for another. A ton of it was just political advantage (wartime mentality = good for Republicans), and another ton of it was just crony capitalism at its finest.

  164. 164.

    Omnes Omnibus

    August 8, 2011 at 12:48 am

    @Chris: Forget it, Chris, it’s crazytown.

  165. 165.

    Villago Delenda Est

    August 8, 2011 at 1:04 am

    @Samara Morgan:

    You are really stupid.

    You know about the underground girl rock bands in KSA, right?

    Western culture IS penetrating. It’s not Christianity that’s doing so, though. It’s not based on any Abrahamic religion. It’s why the Wahabbists are in a panic. The same cultural change that the Roman Catholic hierarchy is in a panic about. The same panic we saw in Houston the other day.

    If you want to see the future for the Muslim world, look to Turkey.

  166. 166.

    Villago Delenda Est

    August 8, 2011 at 1:11 am

    @Samara Morgan:

    The “Bush Doctrine” used the term “democracy”, but it wasn’t about anything the Founding Fathers or Voltaire discussed amongst themselves.

    More like The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism…the way to keep corporatist interests provided for first and foremost at all times. Actual democracy in say Iraq might mean the people voting western oil companies out. Well, not might. For sure. Saddam had to go not because of the “rape rooms”, but because he was threatening to move his medium of exchange from dollars to Euros.

    Bush used “democracy” as a label for something else, just as it’s done in North Korea (The People’s Democratic Republic of Korea).

  167. 167.

    Samara Morgan

    August 8, 2011 at 10:07 am

    @Villago Delenda Est: Turkey?
    Turkey is evolving from 90 years of Kemalist dictatorship and military juntas to trying to vote shariah into the constitution every two years.
    Erdogan’s AKP is the majority party and the islamist party.

    @Chris: its entirely different, dude.
    but dont believe me.
    All you have to do is look at Iraq and A-stan. 10 years, 4.4 trillion taxpayer dollars, and 7k dead soljahs and America is getting a boot in its fat white white judeoxian ass in December. w/e you wanna call it, Bush tried to impose/implant/stand-up/spread/promote westernstyle democracy with freedom of speech, and IT DIDNT WORK.

    No converts, no churches (well only one) or synagogues built, no friends or allies, no muslim warbrides (al-Islam has no prostitute class), no little half american babies, no friends, no allies, no airbases to attack Iran from.
    Iraq is still 97% muslim, A-stan is still 99% muslim.
    The only treaty we have with Iraq is the SOFA, and this is kicking our ass out.
    The Iraqi List and Muqtada wanna sue America for reparations.
    2.5 million Iraqis just signed a petition to force America to leave.

    watev Bush tried, its an epic fail.

    all we are getting out of OIF and OEF is the undying enmity of dar ul islam and 4.5 million orphans some of whom are proto-anti american terrorists.

  168. 168.

    Samara Morgan

    August 8, 2011 at 10:09 am

    @Villago Delenda Est: western culture == judeoxian culture.
    im not the stupid one.

  169. 169.

    Samara Morgan

    August 8, 2011 at 10:12 am

    @Chris:

    you dumb fucking bitch

    temper temper.

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    idc.
    we can call it American style missionary democracy with freedom of speech.

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